April 25, 2025 • 50 mins
Brian (Bearded Behaviorist) Middleton, M.Ed., BCBA, LBA(he/him/mirror pronouns)
Autistic Adult, Professional Speaker & Presenter, Behavior Scientist, Advocate for Disability Rights, IBA, BCBA, LBA, the "Bearded Behaviorist"
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:06):
Hello, it's Jules here at Autistic Radio.
I'm coming back to the contentious,difficult subject of behaviourism.
Why?
Because it's really important.
Behaviourism doesn't go away.
It gets bigger, and it has moreinfluence, not just on the autistic
(00:30):
community, but on the whole population.
AutisticRadio.com (00:33):
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:54):
Today I'm going to be speaking with Brian.
Brian goes under the nameof Bearded Behaviorist.
To introduce him, I'm going to go straightto his words, from the Mindful behavior
homepage of bearded behaviorist.com.
(01:17):
Core values, coaching and continuingeducation services to individuals
working within or invested in thefield of applied behavior analysis.
We strive to provide neurodiversityaffirming service, which
(01:37):
promote individual growth.
and personal centered care.
We understand that each client we workwith is a unique individual, influenced
by his or her culture, family valuesand beliefs, and also personal identity.
We strive to honor and respect theuniqueness of each person that we serve.
(02:02):
, Enhancing the field ofABA first begins in.
By examining the critical feedback,considering where and how we can do
better, and then committing to personalgrowth in the interest of our consumers.
I'll be speaking to Brian aboutthat, but before he arrives Let's
(02:26):
also look at what he calls thelarge call to action headline.
Overall in our work, we seekto alleviate ableism and the
harm caused to our consumers.
We seek to promote a positive relationshipwith our consumers and stakeholders.
(02:49):
We seek to lessen the experienceof ableism and dogma that can
inhibit one's enjoyment of life.
We seek to help our consumers livea fulfilled values based life.
We seek to assist clients.
to engage in affirming behaviours andwe seek to increase clients sense of
meaning and purpose in their career.
(03:11):
We also endeavour to promotebetter functioning and satisfaction
in supporting consumers.
When working with clinicians, weaspire to strengthen emotional
bonds and improve communication.
Each coach at Mindful Behaviour hastheir own unique approach to mentorship.
However, we share a common goalof providing Quality, effective,
(03:34):
empathetic support to the whole person.
Our goal is to guide clinicians,caregivers and colleagues to address
ableism inherent in our society andshape our culture to be accepting
and affirming to all neurotypes.
Services at Mindful Behaviour aregrounded in research based interventions
(03:57):
and are delivered in an ethical manner.
Always with respect for theclient and our overall consumers.
So much so good.
We see the word strive and seek andwe see the word neuroaffirmative.
(04:23):
Let's speak in more detail to Brian and
ask him to explain further whythese large call to actions need
to be out there as headlines.
And why it's necessary to differentiatehimself by quite clearly putting
(04:45):
those as the core values from thewebsite, right in the front and center.
If there is a conversation that wehave to have amongst our community, it
is the one about behavioral science.
(05:06):
Behavioral science is caricatured.
It lives in a space thatalso the bogeyman lives in.
That's a bit of a lazy way of dealingwith our neurodiversity, and it's
(05:27):
also a difficulty for us if we'reever going to have any change.
Today I'm speaking with somebody who is
neurodiverse and also a qualifiedpractitioner, a research person,
(05:51):
somebody with experience.
Let's hear them describe the situation.
So that we don't jump to our ownconclusions and leap out there first.
Open up the space for Brian Middleton.
(06:13):
Hello, Brian, please introduce yourself.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: Hello, my name is Brian Middleton. (06:17):
undefined
. I'm known as the bearded behaviorist.
I am a board certified behavior analyst.
I am also autistic, ADHD,dyslexic, dysgraphic.
And I suspect that I am also dyspraxic,
and I also am partially deaf.
(06:41):
, Jules-AutisticRadio.com: that's a lot of labels, and I'm, I'm kind of hearing
from you that you wear those labels.
Like medals on your chestrather than having them
applied to you by other people.
Can you relate to that?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (06:59):
I wouldn't really say medals on my chest more,
more than more of like a cozy sweaterI've learned to love and accept myself
for who I am and a part of who I am isthose things that happen to have labels.
, those labels have helped me , tounderstand myself a little bit better
and care for myself a little bit more.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:23):
When did you start accumulating these identities?
Was it early on in life?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: I was struggling a lot , in (07:32):
undefined
schooling and learning.
It took me a very long timeto break the code in reading.
And I was very much a very awkward child.
And that led my mom to seeking outand trying to find support for me.
I have a particularly unusual educationalupbringing in that my parents chose
(07:54):
to homeschool me and five of my sixsiblings, , there was a lot of things
that my parents needed support with.
I got a identification with dyslexiadysgraphia and nonverbal learning
disorder, which nonverbal learningdisorder is a common misdiagnosis
for assigned male at birth autistics.
(08:15):
It wasn't until.
When I became a special education teacherand started working with autistic children
and realizing that this was my childhood,obviously, with differences, everybody's
different, but that understanding.
That I was able to gain or that I wasable to come in with really helped me
(08:39):
be able to work with those children andsupport them and see them as people.
I was able to get my own diagnosis withautism spectrum disorder, because, . I
had access to some materials thatmost people don't have access to
.I was able to complete some assessments, . , made an appointment with my.
(09:00):
My GP showed him everything that I haddone, all the materials I had gathered,
and said, Doc, I think I'm autistic.
What do I need to do to get the diagnosis?
It was a bit comical because he, heblinked a few times and said, you did it.
, and that was my journey towards diagnosis.
(09:21):
It wasn't until after COVIDthat I got my ADHD diagnosis.
And mostly it was because,The coping mechanisms I had
before were not quite working
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: that last little bit. (09:34):
undefined
You were forced into because the masking
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (09:38):
slipped.
Yeah, the masking slipped.
And also the masking in my casewas compensation primarily and when
you push yourself and push yourselfand push yourself, you break.
I had a lifetime of going through thosecycles of what I call boom and bust,
(10:03):
where basically I'd be really successfuland then things would fall apart I
needed additional support, the supportthat an ADHD diagnosis and access
to the appropriate medications couldbring, and it's made a big difference.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (10:22):
I'm quite experienced , in listening
to people through my headphones.
And I have a lovely complimentto give you, the beautiful thing
I'm getting from you, Brian, is acomfortability with where you sit.
And the fluency, the owningof where you are in life.
(10:45):
And that's at the same time asbeing in a controversial space.
You are both neurodivergentand you are a behaviorist.
When did behaviorismjoin the party for you?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (11:02):
My early introduction to it was in my undergraduate
work and being certified as a teacher.
I have two undergraduates, one in specialeducation, one in social sciences,
and the special education degree.
I also have a master's of educationwith a administrative endorsement.
, and there's a little bit of behaviorismthat came in through, , PBIS and positive
(11:25):
behavior supports and that sort of thing.
But , my real introduction tobehaviorism came when, as a special
education teacher who, according toother people, I was working miracles
with the children I was supporting.
And the reason for those supposedmiracles was I was using the novel idea
(11:49):
concept of treating them like people.
That was sarcasm for thosewho didn't catch that.
But there were still things thatwere slipping through the gaps and
there were still areas where childrenwere struggling and I was struggling
and my staff were struggling.
So I tried to seek answers, and I, as luckwould have it, I came across a regional
(12:12):
conference for autism where the presenterwas a board certified behavior analyst.
, her talk enthralled me, and I spoke withher for the remainder of the conference
after her talk was done, skipping allof my classes, and she introduced me
to the concept of behaviorism, and thatwas the beginning at the beginning.
(12:32):
But it's most certainly not the endbecause there was, there was more to the
story than just that, including , the,the later discovery of the very dark
history of behaviorism, a dark historythat I want to make sure that I am
acknowledging and make sure that we arenot hiding or pretending is not there.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: Okay, I'm an amateur. (12:56):
undefined
My job is to ask questions.
not know the answers.
An amateur's experience of behaviorismis usually through ABA, and it's
usually from witnessing techniciansat relatively low levels of education,
(13:26):
besides their qualifications inbehaviorism, I'm not demeaning that,
dealing with children directly.
And when I have been exposed towatching training and watching the
videos where people are explaininghow to deal with children better, I
(13:50):
can't help but empathize with a child.
I can't help but see the child tryingto communicate different things, but
feel that the child is being ignoredand the child is being overridden.
It looks to me very much as though thewide group of people who are actually
(14:12):
applying behaviorism don't get us, don'tget us as a group of individuals, don't
get us as a difference from society.
Could you give me moreinformation on how you feel
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (14:26):
about that?
Yeah.
What you described, what you observedis supremacism and action, that
is the medical model and the moralmodel of disability, which , is
a way of viewing disability.
It's, it's not describing the medicalsystem, it's, it's, or industries.
(14:50):
It is the medical model of disabilityand the moral model of disability
frame how we perceive disabilityand the way that disability has been
shaped within radical behaviorism.
That's the name of the philosophyand science that informs applied
behavior analysis was heavily,heavily, heavily shaped by Ivar Lovas.
(15:15):
And his peers and their unquestioningacceptance of the pathology paradigm,
which those two models of disability Imentioned cover and the pathology paradigm
(15:36):
put simply, and this is coming from Dr.Nick Walker, who is an autistic Nick.
Psychologist she is a heavy contributortowards the neurodiversity movement.
So I highly recommend her work,especially her book neuroqueer heresies.
She's the 1 who introducedme to the pathology paradigm.
(15:56):
The pathology paradigm portrays.
Disability as being a pathogen, a, a, athing that resides within the person, but
it's separate from the person that mustbe cured, fixed, recovered from exercise,
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:15):
this sounds like a evil spirits.
, are you saying that modern scientistsview disability as though they have been
taken over by evil spirits as a metaphor?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (16:31):
Yeah, in fact, , the, within behaviorism,
, we actually refer to this as amentalism, a, a, a homunculi, that,
or circular logic, if you will.
That explains away what's happening.
If I were to say, I drinkbecause I'm thirsty.
Well, thirsty is simply a worddescribing the fact that I desire water.
(16:57):
So it's a circular logic.
But if I say, I drink because Ihave not had water for a while,
that is not circular logic.
, that is very, very clear and expected.
, this is, this is the thing that , issimultaneously baffling, but also in
some ways, understandable because.
We're looking at the culture ofthe time and we have to understand
(17:17):
culture impacts behavior.
It's baffling that, that behavioralscientists who very clearly are fall
underneath what's called the functionalcontextual umbrella of behavior science.
Behavior analysis is notthe only behavior science.
I want to be clear on this.
We are functional contextualists,which is also what neurologists
(17:39):
and other psychologists are.
There's many others, occupationaltherapists and speech therapists also
fall underneath the functional contextualumbrella, but Lovas at all accepted
without question the concept or ideathat disability must be cured and it is
(18:02):
very clear in Lovas's work because thecriteria for his success that he specified
was indistinguishable from their peers.
Thank you very much.
Which, by the way, was the exactsame criteria that was utilized
for the Reker and Lovaas articlethat kicked off conversion therapy.
(18:27):
Queer folks have been verypathologized over the years.
And this very much applies to themas well, , the attitudes, , the
ways in which experiences thatdiverge from the accepted norm.
That's very important.
That's what neurodivergent means.
It does not mean diverging from fromtypical development is diverging from
(18:50):
accepted norms this pathologizingthis imagining that it's something
that must be exercised like a bringingin some sort of priest and and the
demon must be pulled out has ledto industrialization of suffering.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I did not interrupt (19:13):
undefined
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (19:15):
there
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (19:17):
your flow was passionate and you could
not have made things clearer.
I'm an amateur pragmatist.
It's clear to me that at the moment,ABA and its history is being used by
(19:42):
parts of the established, let's callthem community, of people who have
realized their neurodiversity for along time and have set themselves up
into opposition against everythingthat has the word behaviorist in it.
(20:02):
For me, that's also a big problem.
I'm a curious man.
I'm, I feel that part of my autismis about not accepting things on
face value and not allowing myselfto be pulled along with whatever
(20:24):
group tries to pull me along.
Are we yet at a position where we canLet go of behaviorism as a bogeyman,
something to give a strength to fightagainst and try to understand a little
(20:47):
bit more about the behaviorist scienceinquiry of Go and try to understand the
behaviorist science inquiry into the humancondition or do we have to still keep
pushing back so hard against the misuseof behaviorist principles and and leave
(21:14):
it so there's no room for compromisewhere do we stand now as politics.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (21:21):
I really want to say one of my favorite Spanish
phrases, which is parque no lastos.
Which means why not both and the reasonI say that is because the issue is
the paradigm that the the issue isthe paradigm by which the behaviorist
(21:45):
community is operating and paradigmsare a series of assumptions that allow
science to move forward without having tostart from square one and move forward.
Every single time and paradigmscan be very big and they can
also be very, very small.
(22:05):
, the paradigm of pathology versus , thefunctional contextual paradigm, , they
are seemingly small and yet they are.
Incredibly massive in howthey impact perception.
So to answer your question of is thereroom for communication and collaboration?
(22:29):
Yes, most definitely.
And there is also room for pushing backagainst the pathology paradigm approaches.
And what better way to referencethat than by an entire institution
focused on ethics, the KennedyInstitute of Ethics Journal.
(22:54):
And an article titled ethical concernswith applied behavior analysis for
autism spectrum disorder and theword disorders in quotes published
by Wakefield and Carthy in 2020.
I will paraphrase the work of the authors.
Please read the article.
I highly recommend , I canprovide you with a copy.
The summarization thatthe authors make is that
(23:22):
the justification for the use ofthe dominant species of applied
behavior analysis, note thatphrasing, dominant species.
It's not justified because itviolates the rights of the autistic
children who are subjected to it.
And I choose my words carefully there.
When I say subjected, I mean thatwhen I say that when the pathology
(23:48):
paradigm is in the driver's seat of thescience, that's where we see ableism.
That's where we see dehumanization.
That's where we see peoplelike Ivar Lova saying.
That well, you see an autisticperson, they got all the things
that you need to be a person.
(24:09):
, I'm paraphrasing him here, butit's pretty close to the quote.
They have, , skin hair, teeth, , limbs,but they don't have everything
that's needed to be a person.
And , the purpose of treatingautism is to make them a person
if you're not horrified by that.
And that was not a perfect quote.
I definitely recommendlooking up the original quote.
(24:29):
But if you're not horrified bythat, then what's wrong with you?
What happened to you to not see
absolutely dehumanizingthat entire approach is?
And so there, we need to be uncompromisingwhen it comes to the pathologizing
(24:53):
of Any disability, not just autism,but any type of intellectual
disability, any type of physicaldisability, , psychological disabilities.
, we need to be horrified by thatdehumanization and we need to push not
just away from the dehumanization, buttowards a humanistic approach towards the
(25:17):
understanding that disability is a verb.
It happens.
It's an interaction between theindividual and the environment.
And that every single human whohas ever been born has experienced
disability because every singleone of us has been an infant.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:36):
And we will become disabled again as we get older,
I'm 59, I can currently walk up thestairs carrying a rucksack two by two,
but I know that my knees graduallywill mean that I will be using some
kind of walking implement in my life.
Exactly.
(25:57):
However, however, , disabled,is used as a noun.
It's been used as a noun in the pastand it has been used in the noun in
the past in such a way as to takeus into eugenics and take us into
(26:17):
the removal of people from society.
It looks to me as though behaviorismis very much part of that.
It looks to me as though behaviorism isthe powerful inquiry that gives the nasty
people the opportunity to make decisions.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: Let me background it. (26:38):
undefined
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: It's the power, but. (26:41):
undefined
It has to be used carefully, and at themoment it looks as though it's being
used for inappropriate things, you know,gun doesn't kill people, people kill
people, that kind of thing, you know?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: So, so the answer is yes and. (26:58):
undefined
And yes, and it's a wonderfulphrase because it allows for
us to acknowledge what is andexpand and understand more and.
My friend Jeff Newman and I wrote anarticle for the Functional Contextualist
Newsletter, which is a free newsletteryou can subscribe to on LinkedIn, and
(27:21):
the article, I'm going to spoil it alittle bit, it makes the comparison of
institutionalization, historically, whichhas been a problem all around the world.
Still is a problem and in many placesin the world, it makes a comparison
(27:44):
of institutionalization of getting thequote uglies unquote out of the public
eye and what I have our low loss andhis peers did, which was to transfer
institutionalization from being a placewhere you put people to instead be a place
where people are conditioned to live.
(28:08):
Autistic masking is real.
Masking neurodivergent masking is realand it is conditioned and I can and
it's conditioned both and it can't beconditioned intentionally and it can just
be conditioned naturally, but it all hasto do with very aversive environments
that are unjust towards that particularindividual, very rigid environments, which
(28:33):
is intriguing to me because we autisticsare often accused of being rigid and yet.
Nothing is more rigid than a neurotypicalwho's had their imagined rules that
are unspoken that we must pick upwithout them telling us being broken.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:53):
I, I really, there's a subtlety there in this
concept of masking that I think an awfullot of the discussion about masking.
Doesn't, doesn't pick up on.
An awful lot of the time, the way maskingis described, is it's described as
(29:18):
something that we are responsible for.
That our pretense at normalis what we are doing.
But you're clearly saying there, twodifferent mechanisms why people end up In
(29:44):
a masking situation, it's either enforcedupon you, by rules, through schools, and
through different training, and differentWhat you have to do because you were told
explicitly what you have to do in certaincircumstances or it's acquired and it's
acquired by our own observation and ourown adaption to the world around us.
(30:13):
It's not part of how we were born, is it?
It's described often aspart of what neurodiversity
is that we are a Shady group of peoplethat are almost duplicitous in our masking
(30:35):
because we are covering up somehow.
The reality is it is enforced upon us inone of those two mechanisms, isn't it?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (30:47):
Yes.
Just a little humorous observation.
The way you described usthat lasts a little bit.
It sounds like we're theIlluminati as in autism.
That might have to become a T shirt.
Okay, so.
Within radical behaviorism, which isthe name of the philosophy and science
(31:13):
behind applied behavior analysis, theassumption is that there are three things
that control behavior phylogeny, whichis synonymous with nature ontogeny,
which is synonymous with learning,psychology and culture and culture.
(31:34):
All of those things interact, the conceptof the blank slate has been debunked
so thoroughly from behaviorists, fromneurologists, from other psychologists,
all of which fall underneath thefunctional contextual umbrella
of science, functional contextualscientists, or functional contextual
(31:56):
behavior scientists, if you will, and
Masking is a behavioral repertoire.
It is, it's not one behavior.
It's a series of behaviors.
And each, each person's mask is different.
Masking is not exclusive to autistics.
There are other types ofmasking that other people do.
(32:18):
And masking is a survival response.
It is something that the individual isconditions do over a period of time to
be able to make it through, to avoid.
To place the blame for maskingand that is the way that a lot of
(32:42):
people describe it is like, well,why can't you just be authentic?
Like, it's like somehow a choice toplace the blame of masking on the
person who is masking is to you.
Wear the most amazing rose tinted glassesthat ignores every other thing that's
happening in the environment and tolook at masking as a pathology, just
(33:10):
like autism is viewed as a pathologyas something that is either a moral
or failing or a medical failing insome way, shape or form instead of
instead of seeing it for what it is,which is A response to conditions it's
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (33:32):
it's masking is is at the crux of the
difficulty in lots of situations whenwe're talking about ABA because ABA
when it's down to the level of servicesthat are helping parents to fix their
kids because their kids are inappropriatefor their society and the parents are
(33:56):
at their wits end and they want to doanything to normalize their children.
Um, In the hope that their children willbenefit and become successful in society
on the basis of them being normalized.
But then on the other side, I, I've gotan anecdote about an autistic only space,
(34:19):
a conference, Ortscape, here in the UK.
I had good Good hopes for Ortscape,but I've had some bad experiences.
And one of them was about masking.
Because I was in a, a small chat space,and I said a, a simple sentence that,
(34:45):
I said that when I traveled, I maskedup to get myself from one side of, um,
security, to the other side of security.
And I saw that as a way of saying, whatI do is I take on the necessary behavior
(35:08):
for those seconds to go through security,so that I don't look like a terrorist,
because as a, as a, um, rather odd person.
eccentric individual, I can present assome kind of risk if I'm not careful.
So wearing a mask through thatto me is a, is an acquired skill.
(35:33):
And an individual just took thatinformation and was triggered by that
to the degree that they brought intheir, they brought in their trauma
and they made a formal complaint.
An upheld formal complaint thatsomebody from the outside had
(35:59):
suggested that they should mask.
The anecdote there just showsthe sensitivity people have
around the concept of masking.
And it's almost ideological that weshould never mask even if we are using
(36:23):
it ourselves as a practicality to getfrom one side of the world to the other.
I don't know what my question is.
I'm just going to shut up.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (36:35):
I hear the question and my response to those people
who say that you, you should not maskthat the no true Scotsman that a true
neurodivergent person would not mask.
That is a very privilegedposition to be operating from.
(36:55):
It's a privileged position that Icould definitely take advantage of
if I took that approach, but I have,I have Friends, I have loved ones
who are black, who have to mask andhave to code switch, which is similar
to masking, but not the same thing.
(37:16):
But I have neurodivergent black friendswhere it is a matter of life or death
because some angry white woman will getupset because this black man is behaving
unusually and we'll call the cops.
And one of those friends.
Recently mourned the loss of afamily member due to violence.
(37:41):
This is very real, andit is very visceral.
And people do not have the privilegeto say that they cannot mask.
Operating and living in an environmentwhere you do not have to mask, where
you can tell somebody else thatthere's something wrong with them.
That is moral model of disability,by the way, right there inside of
(38:02):
the neurodiversity community, tellingthem that they should not mass.
They're not allowed to mask.
That is very privileged.
And it's hard for me to say this because Iwant a world where we do not have to mask.
I want a world where masking asa concept is ancient history.
(38:23):
Where people can be as authentic and realas they want to be, I want a world where
autistic children do not have to worryabout some stranger coming into their home
and effectively manipulating and coercingthem into putting on an act and doing it
(38:44):
so thoroughly that the child compensatesand compensates and compensates to
the point of exhaustion and burnout.
Years and years later, masking isnot good and masking is not bad.
It is.
It's something that happenshow we address it is.
(39:07):
We look at how long and to whateffect the circumstance you described
in personality research because Iexplore outside of behavior analysis
a lot and personality research.
The number one thing that has beenconcluded about personalities is that
(39:27):
environment impacts personality andthat people's personalities change
based off the environment they're in.
One could argue that the type of maskingyou described is a quote, personality
shift, unquote, that allows for youto be able to make your way through.
It's a toleration response.
, you've learned to tolerate to get througha situation where there is danger.
(39:51):
Thank you for your time.
You're, you're responding tothe stimulus in the environment
and, and moving through it.
And that's not necessarily the same classof masking as the person who reported
you and got upset with you, because themasking that that person was probably
thinking of was continuous, ongoing.
(40:12):
And, and I, I empathize with that person.
Because that's a process that I've beengoing through to learn how to unmask
for myself, and we need to make surethat we're not bringing supremacism back
into the conversation unintentionallyby pushing our experiences on others,
(40:36):
because that is at the heart ofall of this at the heart of the
pathologies paradigm is supremacism.
It's the idea that one group orone experience one way of being
is supreme and right and any otherthat does not apply to it is wrong.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (40:54):
Yeah, I also empathize with the person who, who ended
up using that miss misconstruing whatI was saying purposefully, because what
they were needing to do was to take thatfor their own needs, their own attention.
And that.
That means that they'rein a difficult place.
(41:15):
So I, I, of course, I moveaway from that immediately.
Our conversation today isenough for people to listen to.
For goodness sake, it's a, it's ahard, hard conversation that we've had.
I look at the time on the, yeah, I look atthe time and it says 52 minutes up there.
(41:41):
In the edit, we're going to be down to 40ish, I think it would be better, if you
don't mind, if I asked to take up somemore of your time on another occasion.
Would you be willing to do that?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (41:53):
Certainly
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (41:55):
that's that's really generous of you let's let's give
ourselves a break from this conversationand return to it another day let's
not try and do everything all today
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (42:10):
just for context I'm a little bit of a
role today because I was just I justrecorded a podcast with diverge.
Podcasts, which is an autism throughdiversity podcast that focuses a
lot , on pathological demand avoidance.
So great
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: advertising, give me the deals. (42:30):
undefined
Tell people about that.
You know, if there's any other good stuffout there, let's tell people about it.
, Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: these conversations, I think energize me
I am not an optimist andI am not a pessimist.
I'm a realist.
(42:51):
The pessimist must, by theirvery philosophical assumptions,
exclude all data that goes infavor of the optimist view.
And the optimist likewise must excludeall data that supports the pessimist view.
The realist says, yes, and therealist looks at what's happening.
(43:18):
And accepts what's happening.
And this is, I think the waythrough is to, is to yes.
And it's to, to afford each other, ourhumanity, to, to be willing to invest.
And for me, that investment is very,very exciting because that investment.
(43:49):
It can bring clarity, it canbring understanding, it can
bring compassion, compassion forourselves, compassion for others.
It's funny because people think that Ilike conflict and I don't like conflict.
I like the resolution that comeson the other side of conflict.
But what I absolutely hate is theabsolute loneliness and isolation
(44:10):
of the autism mom who thinks that inorder for her to have value, she must
somehow tokenize her child's autism.
Because She herself ismarginalized and left out.
Because she has real struggles thatpeople are not willing to acknowledge
unless she uses her child as some sortof bandage or badge or, or, or shield
(44:36):
to hide behind, or perhaps even asword to to lash out against others.
I have great compassion for that parent.
I have great compassion.
And care for the professional whoimagining themselves, some sort of
savior walks in to an assessment withan autistic child and proceeds to
(44:56):
start talking about how, well, we needto make them do functional play and
we need to make sure that they canbe recovering from autism and X, Y,
Z, and insert all the pathologizinglanguage and all the ways that we.
basically dehumanize each other.
I feel compassion for thatperson because they don't realize
(45:20):
the harm that they're doing.
And I feel compassion for my peerswho either just started going
through or going through the journeyof self discovery and having that
thought, I know what's wrong with me.
And then realizing that eventhat thought is wrong because
there's nothing wrong with you.
There's never beenanything wrong with you.
(45:42):
You've always been the perfect being.
Complete and whole as you are.
And the thing that has been wronghas been an environment that has
repeatedly told you that thereis something wrong with you.
I have compassion for all ofthose people because I've been.
In some way, shape or form, not all ofthose people percent precisely, but it's
(46:06):
sort of those people in different ways.
I've experienced that myself.
I've been the teacher, teacherthat's been pathologizing the child.
I've been the caregiver.
Who has thought of themselves assome sort of savior or person that
must be there and center themselvesin some way, shape or form.
(46:30):
I've been I am the person whois going through the process of
discovery and I spent so much of mytime so much of my time teaching and
sharing and helping people to seeeach other to look past the masks.
Transcribed That we create for eachother and truly see the living,
(46:55):
breathing, struggling, loving,excited, fearful human being.
We need to have that.
Otherwise, we're going tofall into a pendulum swing.
The pendulum swing always hurtspeople and the people that hurts
(47:18):
the most are the most vulnerable.
And the only way that we can trulyexercise our free will, our agency
is to intentionally choose tosee the person, even as we say.
This behavior is unacceptable.
Not autistic behavior, I'm referring topathologizing and dehumanizing behavior.
(47:41):
Fucking
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (47:44):
hell.
You just heard that.
You just heard that from BrianMiddleton, the behaviorist, the bearded
behaviorist, here on Autistic Radio.
Get back here another time, Brian,and make more recordings with us.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: I would love to. (48:08):
undefined
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (48:12):
Autistic radio is about us, it's for us, and it's from us.
Autistic radio is about you, it'sfor you, and it can be from you.
We have, every single Sunday, drop in, 4.
(48:34):
44pm every Sunday.
That's not live, that's us gettingtogether, us talking, community.
Every Sunday, Harry leads a 5 55 p. m. A discussion around the
Facebook page that he creates.
(48:55):
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry.
And then, the bigger picture.
Advocate.
Use us.
Speak to the world.
Your project, your idea, your enthusiasm.
(49:19):
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
we also make serious programs withautism professionals, challenging
(49:46):
their ideas, and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
(50:08):
We need a favour.
To encourage us, we need you to share us.
When you share us, yougive autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
When you repost on LinkedIn and Facebookand anywhere else, you're advocating
(50:34):
for everybody in the autistic community.
So pick the things that you'rehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you, from all of us.
Our conversations here on AutisticRadio are personal and informal.
Please don't imply.
If somebody mentions anorganisation, they're not
(50:58):
representing that organisation.
It's all personal comments.
They speak with their ownwords, for themselves.
Hello, it's Jules here at Autistic Radio.
I'm coming back to the contentious,difficult subject of behaviourism.
Why?
Because it's really important.
Behaviourism doesn't go away.
It gets bigger, and it has moreinfluence, not just on the autistic
(00:30):
community, but on the whole population.
AutisticRadio.com (00:33):
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:54):
Today I'm going to be speaking with Brian.
Brian goes under the nameof Bearded Behaviorist.
To introduce him, I'm going to go straightto his words, from the Mindful behavior
homepage of bearded behaviorist.com.
(01:17):
Core values, coaching and continuingeducation services to individuals
working within or invested in thefield of applied behavior analysis.
We strive to provide neurodiversityaffirming service, which
(01:37):
promote individual growth.
and personal centered care.
We understand that each client we workwith is a unique individual, influenced
by his or her culture, family valuesand beliefs, and also personal identity.
We strive to honor and respect theuniqueness of each person that we serve.
(02:02):
, Enhancing the field ofABA first begins in.
By examining the critical feedback,considering where and how we can do
better, and then committing to personalgrowth in the interest of our consumers.
I'll be speaking to Brian aboutthat, but before he arrives Let's
(02:26):
also look at what he calls thelarge call to action headline.
Overall in our work, we seekto alleviate ableism and the
harm caused to our consumers.
We seek to promote a positive relationshipwith our consumers and stakeholders.
(02:49):
We seek to lessen the experienceof ableism and dogma that can
inhibit one's enjoyment of life.
We seek to help our consumers livea fulfilled values based life.
We seek to assist clients.
to engage in affirming behaviours andwe seek to increase clients sense of
meaning and purpose in their career.
(03:11):
We also endeavour to promotebetter functioning and satisfaction
in supporting consumers.
When working with clinicians, weaspire to strengthen emotional
bonds and improve communication.
Each coach at Mindful Behaviour hastheir own unique approach to mentorship.
However, we share a common goalof providing Quality, effective,
(03:34):
empathetic support to the whole person.
Our goal is to guide clinicians,caregivers and colleagues to address
ableism inherent in our society andshape our culture to be accepting
and affirming to all neurotypes.
Services at Mindful Behaviour aregrounded in research based interventions
(03:57):
and are delivered in an ethical manner.
Always with respect for theclient and our overall consumers.
So much so good.
We see the word strive and seek andwe see the word neuroaffirmative.
(04:23):
Let's speak in more detail to Brian and
ask him to explain further whythese large call to actions need
to be out there as headlines.
And why it's necessary to differentiatehimself by quite clearly putting
(04:45):
those as the core values from thewebsite, right in the front and center.
If there is a conversation that wehave to have amongst our community, it
is the one about behavioral science.
(05:06):
Behavioral science is caricatured.
It lives in a space thatalso the bogeyman lives in.
That's a bit of a lazy way of dealingwith our neurodiversity, and it's
(05:27):
also a difficulty for us if we'reever going to have any change.
Today I'm speaking with somebody who is
neurodiverse and also a qualifiedpractitioner, a research person,
(05:51):
somebody with experience.
Let's hear them describe the situation.
So that we don't jump to our ownconclusions and leap out there first.
Open up the space for Brian Middleton.
(06:13):
Hello, Brian, please introduce yourself.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: Hello, my name is Brian Middleton. (06:17):
undefined
. I'm known as the bearded behaviorist.
I am a board certified behavior analyst.
I am also autistic, ADHD,dyslexic, dysgraphic.
And I suspect that I am also dyspraxic,
and I also am partially deaf.
(06:41):
, Jules-AutisticRadio.com: that's a lot of labels, and I'm, I'm kind of hearing
from you that you wear those labels.
Like medals on your chestrather than having them
applied to you by other people.
Can you relate to that?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (06:59):
I wouldn't really say medals on my chest more,
more than more of like a cozy sweaterI've learned to love and accept myself
for who I am and a part of who I am isthose things that happen to have labels.
, those labels have helped me , tounderstand myself a little bit better
and care for myself a little bit more.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:23):
When did you start accumulating these identities?
Was it early on in life?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: I was struggling a lot , in (07:32):
undefined
schooling and learning.
It took me a very long timeto break the code in reading.
And I was very much a very awkward child.
And that led my mom to seeking outand trying to find support for me.
I have a particularly unusual educationalupbringing in that my parents chose
(07:54):
to homeschool me and five of my sixsiblings, , there was a lot of things
that my parents needed support with.
I got a identification with dyslexiadysgraphia and nonverbal learning
disorder, which nonverbal learningdisorder is a common misdiagnosis
for assigned male at birth autistics.
(08:15):
It wasn't until.
When I became a special education teacherand started working with autistic children
and realizing that this was my childhood,obviously, with differences, everybody's
different, but that understanding.
That I was able to gain or that I wasable to come in with really helped me
(08:39):
be able to work with those children andsupport them and see them as people.
I was able to get my own diagnosis withautism spectrum disorder, because, . I
had access to some materials thatmost people don't have access to
.I was able to complete some assessments, . , made an appointment with my.
(09:00):
My GP showed him everything that I haddone, all the materials I had gathered,
and said, Doc, I think I'm autistic.
What do I need to do to get the diagnosis?
It was a bit comical because he, heblinked a few times and said, you did it.
, and that was my journey towards diagnosis.
(09:21):
It wasn't until after COVIDthat I got my ADHD diagnosis.
And mostly it was because,The coping mechanisms I had
before were not quite working
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: that last little bit. (09:34):
undefined
You were forced into because the masking
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (09:38):
slipped.
Yeah, the masking slipped.
And also the masking in my casewas compensation primarily and when
you push yourself and push yourselfand push yourself, you break.
I had a lifetime of going through thosecycles of what I call boom and bust,
(10:03):
where basically I'd be really successfuland then things would fall apart I
needed additional support, the supportthat an ADHD diagnosis and access
to the appropriate medications couldbring, and it's made a big difference.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (10:22):
I'm quite experienced , in listening
to people through my headphones.
And I have a lovely complimentto give you, the beautiful thing
I'm getting from you, Brian, is acomfortability with where you sit.
And the fluency, the owningof where you are in life.
(10:45):
And that's at the same time asbeing in a controversial space.
You are both neurodivergentand you are a behaviorist.
When did behaviorismjoin the party for you?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (11:02):
My early introduction to it was in my undergraduate
work and being certified as a teacher.
I have two undergraduates, one in specialeducation, one in social sciences,
and the special education degree.
I also have a master's of educationwith a administrative endorsement.
, and there's a little bit of behaviorismthat came in through, , PBIS and positive
(11:25):
behavior supports and that sort of thing.
But , my real introduction tobehaviorism came when, as a special
education teacher who, according toother people, I was working miracles
with the children I was supporting.
And the reason for those supposedmiracles was I was using the novel idea
(11:49):
concept of treating them like people.
That was sarcasm for thosewho didn't catch that.
But there were still things thatwere slipping through the gaps and
there were still areas where childrenwere struggling and I was struggling
and my staff were struggling.
So I tried to seek answers, and I, as luckwould have it, I came across a regional
(12:12):
conference for autism where the presenterwas a board certified behavior analyst.
, her talk enthralled me, and I spoke withher for the remainder of the conference
after her talk was done, skipping allof my classes, and she introduced me
to the concept of behaviorism, and thatwas the beginning at the beginning.
(12:32):
But it's most certainly not the endbecause there was, there was more to the
story than just that, including , the,the later discovery of the very dark
history of behaviorism, a dark historythat I want to make sure that I am
acknowledging and make sure that we arenot hiding or pretending is not there.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: Okay, I'm an amateur. (12:56):
undefined
My job is to ask questions.
not know the answers.
An amateur's experience of behaviorismis usually through ABA, and it's
usually from witnessing techniciansat relatively low levels of education,
(13:26):
besides their qualifications inbehaviorism, I'm not demeaning that,
dealing with children directly.
And when I have been exposed towatching training and watching the
videos where people are explaininghow to deal with children better, I
(13:50):
can't help but empathize with a child.
I can't help but see the child tryingto communicate different things, but
feel that the child is being ignoredand the child is being overridden.
It looks to me very much as though thewide group of people who are actually
(14:12):
applying behaviorism don't get us, don'tget us as a group of individuals, don't
get us as a difference from society.
Could you give me moreinformation on how you feel
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (14:26):
about that?
Yeah.
What you described, what you observedis supremacism and action, that
is the medical model and the moralmodel of disability, which , is
a way of viewing disability.
It's, it's not describing the medicalsystem, it's, it's, or industries.
(14:50):
It is the medical model of disabilityand the moral model of disability
frame how we perceive disabilityand the way that disability has been
shaped within radical behaviorism.
That's the name of the philosophyand science that informs applied
behavior analysis was heavily,heavily, heavily shaped by Ivar Lovas.
(15:15):
And his peers and their unquestioningacceptance of the pathology paradigm,
which those two models of disability Imentioned cover and the pathology paradigm
(15:36):
put simply, and this is coming from Dr.Nick Walker, who is an autistic Nick.
Psychologist she is a heavy contributortowards the neurodiversity movement.
So I highly recommend her work,especially her book neuroqueer heresies.
She's the 1 who introducedme to the pathology paradigm.
(15:56):
The pathology paradigm portrays.
Disability as being a pathogen, a, a, athing that resides within the person, but
it's separate from the person that mustbe cured, fixed, recovered from exercise,
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:15):
this sounds like a evil spirits.
, are you saying that modern scientistsview disability as though they have been
taken over by evil spirits as a metaphor?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (16:31):
Yeah, in fact, , the, within behaviorism,
, we actually refer to this as amentalism, a, a, a homunculi, that,
or circular logic, if you will.
That explains away what's happening.
If I were to say, I drinkbecause I'm thirsty.
Well, thirsty is simply a worddescribing the fact that I desire water.
(16:57):
So it's a circular logic.
But if I say, I drink because Ihave not had water for a while,
that is not circular logic.
, that is very, very clear and expected.
, this is, this is the thing that , issimultaneously baffling, but also in
some ways, understandable because.
We're looking at the culture ofthe time and we have to understand
(17:17):
culture impacts behavior.
It's baffling that, that behavioralscientists who very clearly are fall
underneath what's called the functionalcontextual umbrella of behavior science.
Behavior analysis is notthe only behavior science.
I want to be clear on this.
We are functional contextualists,which is also what neurologists
(17:39):
and other psychologists are.
There's many others, occupationaltherapists and speech therapists also
fall underneath the functional contextualumbrella, but Lovas at all accepted
without question the concept or ideathat disability must be cured and it is
(18:02):
very clear in Lovas's work because thecriteria for his success that he specified
was indistinguishable from their peers.
Thank you very much.
Which, by the way, was the exactsame criteria that was utilized
for the Reker and Lovaas articlethat kicked off conversion therapy.
(18:27):
Queer folks have been verypathologized over the years.
And this very much applies to themas well, , the attitudes, , the
ways in which experiences thatdiverge from the accepted norm.
That's very important.
That's what neurodivergent means.
It does not mean diverging from fromtypical development is diverging from
(18:50):
accepted norms this pathologizingthis imagining that it's something
that must be exercised like a bringingin some sort of priest and and the
demon must be pulled out has ledto industrialization of suffering.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: I did not interrupt (19:13):
undefined
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (19:15):
there
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (19:17):
your flow was passionate and you could
not have made things clearer.
I'm an amateur pragmatist.
It's clear to me that at the moment,ABA and its history is being used by
(19:42):
parts of the established, let's callthem community, of people who have
realized their neurodiversity for along time and have set themselves up
into opposition against everythingthat has the word behaviorist in it.
(20:02):
For me, that's also a big problem.
I'm a curious man.
I'm, I feel that part of my autismis about not accepting things on
face value and not allowing myselfto be pulled along with whatever
(20:24):
group tries to pull me along.
Are we yet at a position where we canLet go of behaviorism as a bogeyman,
something to give a strength to fightagainst and try to understand a little
(20:47):
bit more about the behaviorist scienceinquiry of Go and try to understand the
behaviorist science inquiry into the humancondition or do we have to still keep
pushing back so hard against the misuseof behaviorist principles and and leave
(21:14):
it so there's no room for compromisewhere do we stand now as politics.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (21:21):
I really want to say one of my favorite Spanish
phrases, which is parque no lastos.
Which means why not both and the reasonI say that is because the issue is
the paradigm that the the issue isthe paradigm by which the behaviorist
(21:45):
community is operating and paradigmsare a series of assumptions that allow
science to move forward without having tostart from square one and move forward.
Every single time and paradigmscan be very big and they can
also be very, very small.
(22:05):
, the paradigm of pathology versus , thefunctional contextual paradigm, , they
are seemingly small and yet they are.
Incredibly massive in howthey impact perception.
So to answer your question of is thereroom for communication and collaboration?
(22:29):
Yes, most definitely.
And there is also room for pushing backagainst the pathology paradigm approaches.
And what better way to referencethat than by an entire institution
focused on ethics, the KennedyInstitute of Ethics Journal.
(22:54):
And an article titled ethical concernswith applied behavior analysis for
autism spectrum disorder and theword disorders in quotes published
by Wakefield and Carthy in 2020.
I will paraphrase the work of the authors.
Please read the article.
I highly recommend , I canprovide you with a copy.
The summarization thatthe authors make is that
(23:22):
the justification for the use ofthe dominant species of applied
behavior analysis, note thatphrasing, dominant species.
It's not justified because itviolates the rights of the autistic
children who are subjected to it.
And I choose my words carefully there.
When I say subjected, I mean thatwhen I say that when the pathology
(23:48):
paradigm is in the driver's seat of thescience, that's where we see ableism.
That's where we see dehumanization.
That's where we see peoplelike Ivar Lova saying.
That well, you see an autisticperson, they got all the things
that you need to be a person.
(24:09):
, I'm paraphrasing him here, butit's pretty close to the quote.
They have, , skin hair, teeth, , limbs,but they don't have everything
that's needed to be a person.
And , the purpose of treatingautism is to make them a person
if you're not horrified by that.
And that was not a perfect quote.
I definitely recommendlooking up the original quote.
(24:29):
But if you're not horrified bythat, then what's wrong with you?
What happened to you to not see
absolutely dehumanizingthat entire approach is?
And so there, we need to be uncompromisingwhen it comes to the pathologizing
(24:53):
of Any disability, not just autism,but any type of intellectual
disability, any type of physicaldisability, , psychological disabilities.
, we need to be horrified by thatdehumanization and we need to push not
just away from the dehumanization, buttowards a humanistic approach towards the
(25:17):
understanding that disability is a verb.
It happens.
It's an interaction between theindividual and the environment.
And that every single human whohas ever been born has experienced
disability because every singleone of us has been an infant.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:36):
And we will become disabled again as we get older,
I'm 59, I can currently walk up thestairs carrying a rucksack two by two,
but I know that my knees graduallywill mean that I will be using some
kind of walking implement in my life.
Exactly.
(25:57):
However, however, , disabled,is used as a noun.
It's been used as a noun in the pastand it has been used in the noun in
the past in such a way as to takeus into eugenics and take us into
(26:17):
the removal of people from society.
It looks to me as though behaviorismis very much part of that.
It looks to me as though behaviorism isthe powerful inquiry that gives the nasty
people the opportunity to make decisions.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: Let me background it. (26:38):
undefined
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: It's the power, but. (26:41):
undefined
It has to be used carefully, and at themoment it looks as though it's being
used for inappropriate things, you know,gun doesn't kill people, people kill
people, that kind of thing, you know?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: So, so the answer is yes and. (26:58):
undefined
And yes, and it's a wonderfulphrase because it allows for
us to acknowledge what is andexpand and understand more and.
My friend Jeff Newman and I wrote anarticle for the Functional Contextualist
Newsletter, which is a free newsletteryou can subscribe to on LinkedIn, and
(27:21):
the article, I'm going to spoil it alittle bit, it makes the comparison of
institutionalization, historically, whichhas been a problem all around the world.
Still is a problem and in many placesin the world, it makes a comparison
(27:44):
of institutionalization of getting thequote uglies unquote out of the public
eye and what I have our low loss andhis peers did, which was to transfer
institutionalization from being a placewhere you put people to instead be a place
where people are conditioned to live.
(28:08):
Autistic masking is real.
Masking neurodivergent masking is realand it is conditioned and I can and
it's conditioned both and it can't beconditioned intentionally and it can just
be conditioned naturally, but it all hasto do with very aversive environments
that are unjust towards that particularindividual, very rigid environments, which
(28:33):
is intriguing to me because we autisticsare often accused of being rigid and yet.
Nothing is more rigid than a neurotypicalwho's had their imagined rules that
are unspoken that we must pick upwithout them telling us being broken.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (28:53):
I, I really, there's a subtlety there in this
concept of masking that I think an awfullot of the discussion about masking.
Doesn't, doesn't pick up on.
An awful lot of the time, the way maskingis described, is it's described as
(29:18):
something that we are responsible for.
That our pretense at normalis what we are doing.
But you're clearly saying there, twodifferent mechanisms why people end up In
(29:44):
a masking situation, it's either enforcedupon you, by rules, through schools, and
through different training, and differentWhat you have to do because you were told
explicitly what you have to do in certaincircumstances or it's acquired and it's
acquired by our own observation and ourown adaption to the world around us.
(30:13):
It's not part of how we were born, is it?
It's described often aspart of what neurodiversity
is that we are a Shady group of peoplethat are almost duplicitous in our masking
(30:35):
because we are covering up somehow.
The reality is it is enforced upon us inone of those two mechanisms, isn't it?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (30:47):
Yes.
Just a little humorous observation.
The way you described usthat lasts a little bit.
It sounds like we're theIlluminati as in autism.
That might have to become a T shirt.
Okay, so.
Within radical behaviorism, which isthe name of the philosophy and science
(31:13):
behind applied behavior analysis, theassumption is that there are three things
that control behavior phylogeny, whichis synonymous with nature ontogeny,
which is synonymous with learning,psychology and culture and culture.
(31:34):
All of those things interact, the conceptof the blank slate has been debunked
so thoroughly from behaviorists, fromneurologists, from other psychologists,
all of which fall underneath thefunctional contextual umbrella
of science, functional contextualscientists, or functional contextual
(31:56):
behavior scientists, if you will, and
Masking is a behavioral repertoire.
It is, it's not one behavior.
It's a series of behaviors.
And each, each person's mask is different.
Masking is not exclusive to autistics.
There are other types ofmasking that other people do.
(32:18):
And masking is a survival response.
It is something that the individual isconditions do over a period of time to
be able to make it through, to avoid.
To place the blame for maskingand that is the way that a lot of
(32:42):
people describe it is like, well,why can't you just be authentic?
Like, it's like somehow a choice toplace the blame of masking on the
person who is masking is to you.
Wear the most amazing rose tinted glassesthat ignores every other thing that's
happening in the environment and tolook at masking as a pathology, just
(33:10):
like autism is viewed as a pathologyas something that is either a moral
or failing or a medical failing insome way, shape or form instead of
instead of seeing it for what it is,which is A response to conditions it's
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (33:32):
it's masking is is at the crux of the
difficulty in lots of situations whenwe're talking about ABA because ABA
when it's down to the level of servicesthat are helping parents to fix their
kids because their kids are inappropriatefor their society and the parents are
(33:56):
at their wits end and they want to doanything to normalize their children.
Um, In the hope that their children willbenefit and become successful in society
on the basis of them being normalized.
But then on the other side, I, I've gotan anecdote about an autistic only space,
(34:19):
a conference, Ortscape, here in the UK.
I had good Good hopes for Ortscape,but I've had some bad experiences.
And one of them was about masking.
Because I was in a, a small chat space,and I said a, a simple sentence that,
(34:45):
I said that when I traveled, I maskedup to get myself from one side of, um,
security, to the other side of security.
And I saw that as a way of saying, whatI do is I take on the necessary behavior
(35:08):
for those seconds to go through security,so that I don't look like a terrorist,
because as a, as a, um, rather odd person.
eccentric individual, I can present assome kind of risk if I'm not careful.
So wearing a mask through thatto me is a, is an acquired skill.
(35:33):
And an individual just took thatinformation and was triggered by that
to the degree that they brought intheir, they brought in their trauma
and they made a formal complaint.
An upheld formal complaint thatsomebody from the outside had
(35:59):
suggested that they should mask.
The anecdote there just showsthe sensitivity people have
around the concept of masking.
And it's almost ideological that weshould never mask even if we are using
(36:23):
it ourselves as a practicality to getfrom one side of the world to the other.
I don't know what my question is.
I'm just going to shut up.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (36:35):
I hear the question and my response to those people
who say that you, you should not maskthat the no true Scotsman that a true
neurodivergent person would not mask.
That is a very privilegedposition to be operating from.
(36:55):
It's a privileged position that Icould definitely take advantage of
if I took that approach, but I have,I have Friends, I have loved ones
who are black, who have to mask andhave to code switch, which is similar
to masking, but not the same thing.
(37:16):
But I have neurodivergent black friendswhere it is a matter of life or death
because some angry white woman will getupset because this black man is behaving
unusually and we'll call the cops.
And one of those friends.
Recently mourned the loss of afamily member due to violence.
(37:41):
This is very real, andit is very visceral.
And people do not have the privilegeto say that they cannot mask.
Operating and living in an environmentwhere you do not have to mask, where
you can tell somebody else thatthere's something wrong with them.
That is moral model of disability,by the way, right there inside of
(38:02):
the neurodiversity community, tellingthem that they should not mass.
They're not allowed to mask.
That is very privileged.
And it's hard for me to say this because Iwant a world where we do not have to mask.
I want a world where masking asa concept is ancient history.
(38:23):
Where people can be as authentic and realas they want to be, I want a world where
autistic children do not have to worryabout some stranger coming into their home
and effectively manipulating and coercingthem into putting on an act and doing it
(38:44):
so thoroughly that the child compensatesand compensates and compensates to
the point of exhaustion and burnout.
Years and years later, masking isnot good and masking is not bad.
It is.
It's something that happenshow we address it is.
(39:07):
We look at how long and to whateffect the circumstance you described
in personality research because Iexplore outside of behavior analysis
a lot and personality research.
The number one thing that has beenconcluded about personalities is that
(39:27):
environment impacts personality andthat people's personalities change
based off the environment they're in.
One could argue that the type of maskingyou described is a quote, personality
shift, unquote, that allows for youto be able to make your way through.
It's a toleration response.
, you've learned to tolerate to get througha situation where there is danger.
(39:51):
Thank you for your time.
You're, you're responding tothe stimulus in the environment
and, and moving through it.
And that's not necessarily the same classof masking as the person who reported
you and got upset with you, because themasking that that person was probably
thinking of was continuous, ongoing.
(40:12):
And, and I, I empathize with that person.
Because that's a process that I've beengoing through to learn how to unmask
for myself, and we need to make surethat we're not bringing supremacism back
into the conversation unintentionallyby pushing our experiences on others,
(40:36):
because that is at the heart ofall of this at the heart of the
pathologies paradigm is supremacism.
It's the idea that one group orone experience one way of being
is supreme and right and any otherthat does not apply to it is wrong.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (40:54):
Yeah, I also empathize with the person who, who ended
up using that miss misconstruing whatI was saying purposefully, because what
they were needing to do was to take thatfor their own needs, their own attention.
And that.
That means that they'rein a difficult place.
(41:15):
So I, I, of course, I moveaway from that immediately.
Our conversation today isenough for people to listen to.
For goodness sake, it's a, it's ahard, hard conversation that we've had.
I look at the time on the, yeah, I look atthe time and it says 52 minutes up there.
(41:41):
In the edit, we're going to be down to 40ish, I think it would be better, if you
don't mind, if I asked to take up somemore of your time on another occasion.
Would you be willing to do that?
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (41:53):
Certainly
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (41:55):
that's that's really generous of you let's let's give
ourselves a break from this conversationand return to it another day let's
not try and do everything all today
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian (42:10):
just for context I'm a little bit of a
role today because I was just I justrecorded a podcast with diverge.
Podcasts, which is an autism throughdiversity podcast that focuses a
lot , on pathological demand avoidance.
So great
Jules-AutisticRadio.com: advertising, give me the deals. (42:30):
undefined
Tell people about that.
You know, if there's any other good stuffout there, let's tell people about it.
, Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: these conversations, I think energize me
I am not an optimist andI am not a pessimist.
I'm a realist.
(42:51):
The pessimist must, by theirvery philosophical assumptions,
exclude all data that goes infavor of the optimist view.
And the optimist likewise must excludeall data that supports the pessimist view.
The realist says, yes, and therealist looks at what's happening.
(43:18):
And accepts what's happening.
And this is, I think the waythrough is to, is to yes.
And it's to, to afford each other, ourhumanity, to, to be willing to invest.
And for me, that investment is very,very exciting because that investment.
(43:49):
It can bring clarity, it canbring understanding, it can
bring compassion, compassion forourselves, compassion for others.
It's funny because people think that Ilike conflict and I don't like conflict.
I like the resolution that comeson the other side of conflict.
But what I absolutely hate is theabsolute loneliness and isolation
(44:10):
of the autism mom who thinks that inorder for her to have value, she must
somehow tokenize her child's autism.
Because She herself ismarginalized and left out.
Because she has real struggles thatpeople are not willing to acknowledge
unless she uses her child as some sortof bandage or badge or, or, or shield
(44:36):
to hide behind, or perhaps even asword to to lash out against others.
I have great compassion for that parent.
I have great compassion.
And care for the professional whoimagining themselves, some sort of
savior walks in to an assessment withan autistic child and proceeds to
(44:56):
start talking about how, well, we needto make them do functional play and
we need to make sure that they canbe recovering from autism and X, Y,
Z, and insert all the pathologizinglanguage and all the ways that we.
basically dehumanize each other.
I feel compassion for thatperson because they don't realize
(45:20):
the harm that they're doing.
And I feel compassion for my peerswho either just started going
through or going through the journeyof self discovery and having that
thought, I know what's wrong with me.
And then realizing that eventhat thought is wrong because
there's nothing wrong with you.
There's never beenanything wrong with you.
(45:42):
You've always been the perfect being.
Complete and whole as you are.
And the thing that has been wronghas been an environment that has
repeatedly told you that thereis something wrong with you.
I have compassion for all ofthose people because I've been.
In some way, shape or form, not all ofthose people percent precisely, but it's
(46:06):
sort of those people in different ways.
I've experienced that myself.
I've been the teacher, teacherthat's been pathologizing the child.
I've been the caregiver.
Who has thought of themselves assome sort of savior or person that
must be there and center themselvesin some way, shape or form.
(46:30):
I've been I am the person whois going through the process of
discovery and I spent so much of mytime so much of my time teaching and
sharing and helping people to seeeach other to look past the masks.
Transcribed That we create for eachother and truly see the living,
(46:55):
breathing, struggling, loving,excited, fearful human being.
We need to have that.
Otherwise, we're going tofall into a pendulum swing.
The pendulum swing always hurtspeople and the people that hurts
(47:18):
the most are the most vulnerable.
And the only way that we can trulyexercise our free will, our agency
is to intentionally choose tosee the person, even as we say.
This behavior is unacceptable.
Not autistic behavior, I'm referring topathologizing and dehumanizing behavior.
(47:41):
Fucking
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (47:44):
hell.
You just heard that.
You just heard that from BrianMiddleton, the behaviorist, the bearded
behaviorist, here on Autistic Radio.
Get back here another time, Brian,and make more recordings with us.
Bearded-Behaviourist-Brian: I would love to. (48:08):
undefined
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (48:12):
Autistic radio is about us, it's for us, and it's from us.
Autistic radio is about you, it'sfor you, and it can be from you.
We have, every single Sunday, drop in, 4.
(48:34):
44pm every Sunday.
That's not live, that's us gettingtogether, us talking, community.
Every Sunday, Harry leads a 5 55 p. m. A discussion around the
Facebook page that he creates.
(48:55):
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry.
And then, the bigger picture.
Advocate.
Use us.
Speak to the world.
Your project, your idea, your enthusiasm.
(49:19):
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
we also make serious programs withautism professionals, challenging
(49:46):
their ideas, and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
(50:08):
We need a favour.
To encourage us, we need you to share us.
When you share us, yougive autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
When you repost on LinkedIn and Facebookand anywhere else, you're advocating
(50:34):
for everybody in the autistic community.
So pick the things that you'rehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you, from all of us.
Our conversations here on AutisticRadio are personal and informal.
Please don't imply.
If somebody mentions anorganisation, they're not
(50:58):
representing that organisation.
It's all personal comments.
They speak with their ownwords, for themselves.
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