June 2, 2025 • 44 mins
Advocacy needs effective Allies.
Especially within Education.
Our difficulties start in Education.
Karen Timm is just that. An Autistic leader in the revolution; networking worldwide. Karen is within the education system as the Autistic on the inside. She experiences some marginalisation but pushes back in a way that includes her colleagues.
Educating the Educators whenever advocacy is afforded and also taking the lead herself when its not.
Clear straight to the point and passionate.
This episode includes reference to ABA please use your own judgement. Cheers Jules
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(00:19):
Here we are again, . Lots ofdifferent people try lots of
different ways of communicating theidea of autism out to the world.
Welcome again to Autistic Radio.
It's Jules, I'm speaking with Karen Timm.
(00:41):
There's a difference betweenus, as well as a big similarity.
The similarity, I think you're allgoing to guess, and it's going to be
obvious, is that we are both autistic.
The difference is, I am less experiencedin my knowledge of my autism, and
the amount of time I've had toeven, Recognize and understand it.
(01:06):
but there is somebody who has a lotmore information than me about it.
So, it's a pleasure to bespeaking to Karen Tim today.
Somebody I follow on, LinkedIn.
When I read what's written,I find it to be insightful.
(01:29):
Something that makes me goaway and think about it.
Is that okay if I blow smokeup your arse here, Karen?
Certainly.
Thank you for that.
I'm humbled by your
Words I think we'reall on our own journey.
I remember newly understanding and comingto terms with being autistic, several
(01:54):
years ago and learning from, peoplelike Lyric Holmans, who at the time
was, Krista Holmans, they've changedtheir name, a wee bit and, now is Lyric
Rivera, I came across their work onlinethey go by NeuroDivergent Rebel and
they're quite a bit younger than me.
Because of the sharing of their storiesand their own understanding, it was
(02:20):
extremely powerful I was experiencinga real awakening, you know, you
still don't diminish your own story.
You are where you are in your journey.
We all have opportunities to learn fromeach other that's part of it, right?
It's important that we notminimize our own lived experience.
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
(02:40):
I'm not trying to minimize.
I'm trying to doff myhat and show respect.
I'm really comfortable with where I am.
But the other thing is I can comeacross as a bit of an arse, I'm a
white privileged male who hasn'thad to mask that much, hasn't had
(03:03):
to accumulate a lot of trauma.
I have to be really careful thatmy outward confidence doesn't
come across to other people
as a difficulty.
I mean, can you have any sympathywith somebody as privileged as me?
(03:24):
Yeah, no, but, but I thinkthat's interesting because even
in that it's masking, right?
, you're having to translate the world.
To how you would be seen andsoften the approach, right?
, that's very interesting.
We all present very uniquely men,women non binary folks, you know,
(03:45):
et cetera, around the world.
In my experience women are oftenseen as, too much or, , too intense
or too, it's always, it's alwaysprefaced with to something, right?
And, and even as children thathappens early, way before people
know that they're autistic.
Little girls are, , the people pleasersor the overly dramatic or the too
(04:10):
emotional or the this or that labeled inso many ways way before , we encounter
a diagnostic process for those whoeven have the privilege to do so.
It sounds to me as what you'resaying is this is a misogynistic
world in which women have to adaptwhether they are autistic or not
(04:34):
and The standards by which women are
held to, happens right back in the family.
Mothers and fathers do itand it's an extra layer when
that person is also autistic.
Have I understood?
(04:56):
Yeah, I, I mean, I think so,
being in education I've witnessedmany little girls in particular
who, as they enter the school systemthey, they come in as close to
their authentic self as they can be.
(05:18):
Then they spend , their primary years into, their, , preteen and teen years developing
who they are, but it's all geared towho they think they're supposed to be.
They're already kind of themselvesand then they have to change
(05:39):
who they are and I say have to.
I mean it is survival in many ways becauseso much of what we have to do is, is
driving to, fit in even though later onwe come back to , the need to not fit in.
So I think many of us go through
, ups and downs of whatdegree do we want to fit in?
(05:59):
When we think about.
autistic masking, we know thatit's conscious, but also very
unconscious or subconscious.
And there's so many layers to this,not just for women, , for men and women
right from our earliest socializations.
(06:21):
I always think back to the exampleof eye contact in many cultures
eye contact is considered respect.
It's how we communicate quotenormally by making eye contact.
And those early indicatorsin many cultures.
of a baby connecting withtheir family is this eye gaze.
(06:45):
And lots of autistics still do that.
But if you think about the reinforcementthat we get as little humans, as infants,
every time we're looking at makingeye contact with new people, right?
It's that, it's the oohing and the awingand the, the positive reinforcement.
(07:07):
, That's reinforcing a maskingresponse if that , eye gaze or
looking at somebody new to you inthe eyes doesn't feel comfortable.
It's layers and layers of masking , manyof us are if not all of us are on
a perpetual journey throughout ourlives to figure out how much of us is
(07:27):
the mask and how much of it is not.
Hmm.
I, I fully agree with you.
You could describe what I, what Idid to hold up and say look I am
privileged and I am being careful.
I am being careful to be considerate.
I am being careful to be polite.
(07:48):
I'm being careful in that way tokind of demonstrate my knowledge
to say, look, you're safe here.
I've thought about it.
I know, I know, you know to methat, that, that, that felt that
I was doing that intellectually.
It didn't feel like a mask.
Cause in the end, without soundingrude, I could walk away at any
(08:11):
time . I do feel that privileged.
I do not feel as though somebodyhas any right over me to ask
me to look in their eyes.
I do look in people's eyes becauseI'm interested sometimes, because I
want to see what's going on with them,whether their pupils are moving or
(08:33):
I want to see little different microexpressions, but I am very aware that
the majority of the time I, I do notgive people eye gaze and I do not
expect them to request it from me.
If they request it from me,I see that as an aggression.
So this is why I kind of tried to putacross this feeling that I have is
(08:56):
that I've got away with it very easily.
I come from neurodivergent parentand I have never really been forced
to act according to social mores butI have looked around me and decided
(09:17):
what is useful for me so maybethat's masking or maybe that's being,
maybe that's just being a bit canny.
I don't know how to, tojudge that for myself.
What I do know is I don't feelI'm in any harm from this, but
other people are, aren't they?
(09:37):
Yeah, well, I mean, and the thing is, it's
I think it's how we decide whetherwe're harmed or not, right?
So what somebody may feel is them beingharmed, somebody else may not feel
that that's them being harmed, right?
I too, although my my parents were neverdiagnosed with anything we were all of
(10:03):
in agreement that, that I too am from aneurodivergent, a neurodivergent family.
Parents and likely grandparentsaunts, uncles, you name it.
I was very fortunate some of my privilegealso you know, shared with you being
a white presenting human Englishspeaking in an English speaking country.
(10:31):
It was never forced upon me either we justkind of got each other there are nuances
and things that we joke about now, right?
Like, that we now recognize.
they seemed just normal to usbut they wouldn't necessarily be
things that were considered normalin, , non autistic families.
(10:54):
, I didn't feel those pressures.
However, in, , a school setting orworkplace setting even to this day
You know, in the last little whileI've had conversations with superiors
about eye contact when we're doingsessions to teach teachers how to
(11:16):
communicate or teach leaders howto communicate with each other.
We should not be defaulting to saying thatmaking good eye contact is an expectation
and that if you don't do that then youare not communicating well with families,
because the assumption is, , That this ishow they want to be received, that's not
(11:39):
the case for, for many families, , theydon't want eye contact neurodivergence,
, sensory reasons, it could be forcultural faith based reasons, right?
, we know there are many faiths andcultures where eye contact is not
something that is automatically equatedwith respect or good communication.
(12:02):
When I am open about the factthat eye contact feels gross in
some circumstances for me I'mcapable of doing it, absolutely.
What I advocate for is for us to notassume those neuro normative standards
(12:24):
are the best way of doing things thatwe shouldn't , make blanket statements
about, , what does good communicationlook like, what does good listening look
like, what does good, whatever look like.
, yes harms are caused In job interviews,it happens in in the workplace.
(12:46):
When people are doing appraisals ofyou, it happens when you disclose
things about yourself that.
Maybe you have masked for a verylong time and people might say
that's successful in quotes, but
when you're expending inordinateamounts of energy to do those things
(13:08):
and they're actually not beneficialfor everyone, then you're losing
out on other things you couldbe using that energy for, right?
That may not hit you until you get homefrom a long day's work or a commute.
, a day attending appointmentsor what have you.
Maybe people don't see how it hits you,but it does hit you you only have , so
(13:30):
much energy or some of us will sayspoons to expend throughout a day.
Yeah.
Kind of social battery theory.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Social battery is another goodway of putting it for sure.
It's lovely to hear thatyou're in the education system.
(13:50):
And you're advocating there,you're advocating early on.
It seems to me that it's the educationsystem that when people talk to me a
lot about this, is when, it's the partof their lives that they are able to
hone in on and say, , that, these arethe incidents, these are the things
(14:14):
that I remember that I had to deal with.
But it also is the case that thatis also the time of the age of them,
you know, they didn't have a choice.
Everyone was put throughthe education system at
the same time.
So there's a coincidence in it.
(14:38):
, is the education system actuallydesigned to, make us neuro normative?
Is it the whole idea of itfrom its first principles?
To get the kids to behave in a usefulway for them to then be the cannon fodder
(15:03):
for the army or for the workplace orfor the, for the industrialized world
because we only really started educatingkids when, when they had left the farms
and when they were moving into the townsand cities, you know, is that the truth?
Yeah, I, I mean, I remember discussingthis with somebody else the education
(15:26):
system if you look to some of the oldestones, the traditional system certainly
North America, , but I think also in UK,, we're not looking at, , an ageless system.
, In comparison to the existence of thehuman brain and human species that is
(15:47):
in its infancy , it feels like it's beenaround forever, but it really hasn't.
It was developed to you know,create to, you know affirm aspects
of culture , strengthening idealswhether that be faith based, generally
(16:09):
across the world, there's lots ofdifferent, , ways of, of experiencing
the world, but it's to reinforce, the majority, wherever that is.
And, In an industrialized societyand a capitalistic society,
the workforce is created.
and tiered based on levelsof education, right?
(16:31):
And those that traditionally go through, the most education, , meritocracy for lack
of a better term they're rewarded, right?
With the better jobs better payawards and accolades it's not geared.
To meet the needs ofdifferent kinds of learners.
(16:55):
And when I say different, I mean,everyone has different ways of
learning and receiving information.
It's geared to what's still considereda majority population even today.
It takes a long time for changeit's very hard to be patient
waiting for that change to happen.
(17:16):
So, what we're seeing now is a lotof people, as they're telling their
stories and sharing their realitiesand their reflections , their
experiences in education, both youngand , current students, those who
have graduated and those who wentthrough the education system even
decades ago we're seeing more and moreeducators wanting to change things.
(17:43):
Recognizing that it's almostimpossible to wait for policies
and processes and procedures totake hold before you make change.
A lot of educators are looking fornew and innovative ways to meet
the needs of diverse learners.
For one, it's survival for them,because it's almost impossible to
(18:06):
teach in traditional system and meetthe needs of learners and not have.
, all kinds of challenges, whenyou're over stimulating sensorally,
learners, , there will be conflicts.
There will be meltdowns.
There will be really unfortunatecircumstances because the needs of
so many learners are not being met.
(18:29):
Kids ostracizing each other , those thatare the seen as the norm are in power,
? There's a lot of power and privilege.
And education is like a microcosmof society, we're not getting
kids ready for the real world.
Schools are the real world.
What we do in schools, Hasa lot more ripples, creating
(18:56):
society than, we realize.
When we create innovativeschools where kids.
Can feel like they can bethemselves, they're the ones going
to be changing things sustainably
. Okay, I want to try and say this back to you in a simple way and
(19:17):
see if it, if it gets there.
Schools are new, according to thelength of time we have been teaching
each other and passing on informationfrom one generation to another.
. They were set up when therewas an industrialized society.
(19:37):
At the beginning, they mostlyjust passed on the religion
and the culture of the people.
Children were taken into a place whenthey could no longer work alongside their
parents in the factories and the mills,and they were taken away and looked after
(19:59):
by people who then enforced a certainset of standards and gradually We hope
educational reforms into a way of skillingour workforce and giving a meritocracy or
competition based system with exams andways of Grading people so that we could
(20:22):
pick out the people who were going tohave the biggest opportunities and we're
going to get the possibilities in societyand that's how it's worked fairly well
over the last hundreds of years or so.
But you're saying the educationaliststhemselves now possibly.
(20:44):
Only during the last 50, maybe evendown to the last 30, maybe even on the
last 10 years are trying from withinchange the system and change the way
things are done because they can'twait for the top down to reach them.
They have to do it with their owngut feeling about how we adapt to
(21:05):
children rather than make childrenadapt to everyone else and just enforce
the modern society's rules on them.
Is that vaguely where we are?
I ended with, the idea of power andprivilege, education is a system and
systems are created through powerand privilege, if the ideals of that
(21:26):
system are to select those who areConsidered the best on the on a scale
of 1 to 10 who's considered the best.
Who's got the highest marks?
Who's got this or that?
Then it just continues to reinforce thisnotion or this gold standard human, ? But
(21:48):
the diversity of humans, the diversityof human thought and experiences and
how we receive and process information.
Over an entire species, it's not onekind of person that is some ideal.
In order for a species to flourish andthrive, we need to be cross pollinating.
(22:09):
We need to be learning from each other.
We need to be, sharing ideas andseeing things in different ways.
What's happening is out of necessity , totry and meet the needs of diverse learners
that are presenting in our classrooms.
They've always been there.
(22:31):
In previous generations.
And there still are, a lot of isolation,there was a lot of exclusion, there was
a lot of You know, really eugenics basedthinking , to be strong worded about it.
We're far from where we needto be in terms of trying to be
(22:53):
more inclusive in our schools.
Once we start to get more neurodivergentpeople, being open and recognizing
their own neurodivergence as educatorsAnd we get neurodivergent educators
into more leadership positions.
That's where we see this crosspollination of ideas becoming positive
(23:19):
moves , embracing neurodiversity andmeeting the needs , and implementing
universal design for learning.
There's a lot of talk in educationas there are in all systems.
politicians and all the talk thathappens there, it's really not much
different we know that kids as wellas adults, but kids do best when
(23:44):
they feel heard, , seen, valued,represented, when they go to school
thanks.
But when they see themselves representedin the people educating them, it doesn't
mean that every educator , needs tobe the same as , their, their student.
We're all unique humans, it'samazing when you see the change
(24:09):
in a child when they hear theirteacher is openly neurodivergent.
or their administrators openlyneurodivergent when they are embracing
their identity because they don'tfeel like they're, quote, different.
They, they feel like they belong, right?
Like they have, they, theyhave found community and, and
(24:30):
that's so extremely powerful.
, there's a lot of thingshappening in education today.
The phrase is, you can'tbe what you can't see.
Look, it's wonderfulhearing what you're saying.
And hearing the amount ofknowledge and care and thought
(24:53):
that you're putting into this
is affecting me, it touches me.
But there's this big weighted pendulumthat I see swinging through society.
And it is about enforcingconstructed norms.
(25:18):
Across society.
So?
Just south of you, I read that the newadministration in the United States is
looking to de woke schools, to removeprogressive ideas from schools by putting
(25:40):
them under pressure in various ways.
They have been doing it.
in the lower ends of schools bymaking it impossible for diversity
to be in books in certain areas.
So what I see in America, Ialso feel is happening almost
(26:05):
everywhere else that I am aware.
This right wing, almost fascist,version of the world, because people
have looked to that for certainty.
And this idea of diversity, thisdiversity of which I am part of, just
(26:28):
as I get to the point where enough ofpeople like you have done enough of the
ground, it looks as though all the doorsare going to be slammed in our faces.
This is my fear.
It's hard I try not to get toopolitical in these things but I, I
(26:48):
think that the reality is, again,it's about power and privilege.
It's all politics, Karen.
It is all politics.
This is people.
It's the politics, you know.
But I think what people neglect to realizeis that in a certain politician's quest
(27:12):
to be this supreme leader, his storywas one of being dehumanized and made
to feel less than for a very long time.
There's more than enough information outthere to illustrate that this person of
whom we speak is extremely neurodivergent
(27:36):
and does everything he can to, suppress.
any indication of labelsfor X, Y, or Z, not
just for himself, but also for his child,which there have been speculations about.
And that's nobody's business, and Iget that, but when you're a public
(27:56):
figure, you come under scrutiny.
I think what's so unfortunate is that
when we have somebody who has, hasinternalized so much ableism, learned
that You have to be , creative,innovative and all of those things, but
the reality is it's still ruthlessness.
(28:19):
, it's still about trying to bethe best, but at all costs,
it's a compensatory strategy.
That's where, , we go wrongbecause the privilege and power.
Compiled with the ableism causes thesethings , causes so much harm to the
(28:42):
person, but also to whoever they impact.
When you add the privilegeand power to that, it's a very
dangerous combination, right?
Somebody who, could do allkinds of great things ends up
causing a great deal of harm.
And . Even the term woke and dewoke, , it's just, it's all ridiculous.
(29:06):
We have a diverse population of humanbeings and we have to be responsive.
It's incumbent upon us to be responsiveto diverse population and anyone that
is trying to neglect the needs of adiverse population is using their power
(29:30):
and privilege to perpetuate normality,and there is no such thing as normal.
, it's really sad and it's very scary.
Many Canadians do not wantto go down to the States.
I remember receiving the news thefirst time this happened, and I openly
(29:52):
wept in the school office with othereducators because we were just so, like,
dumbfounded that this election went theway that it did the first time around.
We're a bit removed from it becausewe're in Canada, , but yes, it does
have implications across the world.
(30:14):
I want, I want to pullit out of this fire.
. One of my roles here
is to push some pretty uncomfortablequestions out there, not to, not
to hurt people, but to give us theopportunity to answer them, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.
(30:37):
One of the advocates that we're speakingwith at the moment, he calls it the
Socratic principle, bringing peopleto conclusions by asking them the
questions, not telling them the answers.
I too,
had A reaction, I can't say I've hadthe reaction recently shortly after
(30:58):
the end of the first term, it was mybelief that he would get the second
term anyway, I, I saw the, the secondpresident as fairly short term, not
different enough, not grasping theproblems that had led us to this decision.
Populism was more powerful than ideas.
(31:21):
However,
That's a democracy with 25 percentof the people voting because,
, there's a large group of peoplethat either didn't vote, couldn't
vote, or voted in a different way.
So, the knowledge we have,Neurodiversity in this case, or any
(31:44):
other embracing difference in humanbeings, the genie is out of the bottle.
We need to just keep disseminatingthe information through the society.
However the pendulum stands, the pendulumstands at the moment, and things will get
(32:06):
tough, things will get sticky, and thenthey will . Unfold, fall apart, we need
to make sure that the ideas keep movingin the background and that we keep helping
each other in the background and spreadingsome peace and love throughout the world.
(32:28):
I, I think we must take a step backfrom our emotions and not be Bullied by
what looks like extreme power, becauseit isn't in the end extreme power.
Right.
We are the people and our knowledge andour understanding of ourselves and our
(32:54):
feelings of ourselves and our embracingof other people and the connections
we make with other people are alwaysmore important than the systems.
, you could see that through communism.
You can see this through this.
quasi fascism that we'reunder at the moment.
Are you okay with that?
(33:15):
Yeah,
very much a believer in, the ideaof bridging, redefining community.
Along the lines of what you'resaying a lot of the work that I do Is
international for that very reason becauseworking within the local community.
(33:39):
, that's great.
You can help lots of peoplein the local community.
You can't shift thinking.
You can't cross pollinate.
And have the impact if you are notconnected with, a broader matrix.
(33:59):
Early on in my journey to understandwhere we need to go next and,
what had been done in the pastand, what's the knowledge base.
I first learned from some of the,the top autistics, through research
or taking , training courses
(34:21):
, finding out who were the people tolearn from when it came to things like
the United Nations Convention on theRights of Persons with Disabilities
and creating and adding tothis international matrix.
From there.
Like, I attribute anything that I doto a we because I carry with me all of
(34:48):
the learnings from my communications,from my collaborations, from, early on
hosting, , Twitter spaces together andmeeting that way in the first year.
For the first time I mean, I spearheadedan international summit this way , I
guess it's now about almost 3 years ago.
(35:10):
It was literally through theseconnections trying to amplify.
Bring more people together.
Those relationships are just aspowerful, if not more powerful
than many of the connections manyof us have in our local spaces
We're only a WhatsApp message awayit's quite amazing to see many of us
(35:32):
have written books this way startedfoundations this way that's where the
redefining of this knowledge base.
is happening.
Very,
affirming and also hopeful, being witnessto the change in the knowledge base if you
(35:57):
were to look up the word autism 10 yearsago to 7 or 8 to 5 years , the change now
that we're seeing is we're at this tippingpoint and whether we've hit it or not.
I don't know.
I think it's going tocontinue to fluctuate.
(36:19):
. It used to be impossible to findresearch by autistics, not because
there wasn't research being done byautistics, but just because we didn't
know who the autistic researchers were,and now we're seeing so many of us.
getting into changing theknowledge base intentionally.
(36:44):
Many of us are,, are in graduate studiesnow, not because we need to be, because
we want to contribute to the narrative in,in ways that are considered, validated you
have to do this through academia, right?
, even children's picture books, justabout three, maybe four years ago, when
(37:05):
I had been , open about being diagnosed,I was already many years into my career
as a, as a school leader, and somebodyhad asked me to do a guest reading,
their school online, and the book they'dselected for me was a book that, and I
won't say its name, but it was a bookthat, Was well known is a children's book.
(37:27):
I didn't like the book necessarily.
, it had what many would would believe tobe a positive message, but when you dig
deeper, it wasn't written by an autistic.
, it didn't, it didn't speak to me I wentlooking for a book that spoke to me.
that told my story so that Icould feel more authentic in that.
(37:50):
And I couldn't find one.
So that night I , wrote a picture book.
, I was then convinced, you know, you'vegot to publish this and what have you.
That is still in the works.
It can be a slow process whenyou're trying to stay true to
your authentic story, but now.
(38:12):
If you are an autistic child or a familyof an autistic and you're looking for
picture books or you're looking for, youknow, personal narratives by autistics
there's, there's so many and it's so mucheasier to find representation that way.
, it's brilliant the way that I thinkwe're, we're hitting academia and we're
(38:33):
hitting, , the media where there are morerepresentative , they're not all really
great, but we're seeing autistic actorsplaying autistic characters, right?
Which we didn't use to see.
We used to only see thisterrible single narrative, right?
, the stories that are beingtold, the research there.
(38:53):
With all of those things.
We broaden the narrative to createa safe space for people to say,
well, yeah, I'm autistic too, right?
Autistic now means somethingdifferent to a lot of people, but
it's still very misunderstood bymost in the general population.
(39:14):
Let me give a call out now to thelistener in Singapore, to the listener in
Vatican City, to the listener in Mexico.
To the listener in the northern partsof Europe, to the many listeners across
the African continent, to people inNorth America, obviously all of the
(39:39):
English speaking parts of the world.
Let me give a call out to you.
There are others.
There is a network.
There are plenty of otherresources to network into.
Use the people you hear on autisticradio to give you a key in to other
(40:01):
people for those connections andthen follow and find their network.
We might just be the door to you.
Mm hmm.
But it's a real pleasure that youhave allowed us into your ears today.
Karen, I hope that there willbe an opportunity to speak to
(40:26):
you again at another junction.
Mm hmm.
Do you think that will be possible?
Yeah, absolutely.
And like you just said, you know, I,I am always open to collaborations and
communications, but I'm also you know,very much geared to amplifying the voices.
(40:50):
And so I would definitely encouragepeople to you know, definitely follow
the work that you and I are doing.
To also check out the partners,the collaborations , I
founded, the NeuroDivergentInfinity Network of Educators.
, we have a growing number ofpartners all the world and, we
(41:13):
draw upon each other, right?
Their podcasts and theireducational events, publications.
It's really, it's really brilliant to see.
What's happening all around I encouragepeople to check out those resources again.
Karen name it again
So it's nine and I ne the neurodivergentinfinity network of educators
(41:38):
the program notes everything We'llbe there for you every social media
link for the network there in thelink somewhere thing for you to click
on so that you can find your placeout there alongside with all of the
rest of us, all of us bound togethertwigs that make a really strong trunk.
(42:04):
Thank you for listening today andespecially thank you to Karen Timm,
it's been a pleasure chatting,always open to the dialogue.
What I like to say is ripplesbecome waves, and this is one
more ripple that we're sending outthere, So let's become those waves.
Autistic Radio is about us,it's for us, and it's from us.
(42:31):
Autistic Radio is about you, it'sfor you, and it can be from you.
We have, every single Sunday, Drop in.
4 4 4 p. m. every Sunday.
That's not live.
That's us getting together.
(42:52):
Us talking.
Community.
Every Sunday, Harry leads a 5 55 p. m. A discussion around the
Facebook page that he creates.
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry.
(43:14):
And then, the bigger picture.
Advocate.
Use us.
Speak to the world.
Your project.
Your idea.
Your enthusiasm.
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
(43:35):
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
we also make serious programs withAutism professionals, challenging
(43:56):
their ideas and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
(44:17):
We need a favour.
To encourage us, we need you to share us.
When you share us, yougive autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
Autism When you repost on LinkedInand Facebook and anywhere else,
(44:42):
you're advocating for everybodyin the autistic community.
So pick the things that you'rehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you, from all of us.
Here we are again, . Lots ofdifferent people try lots of
different ways of communicating theidea of autism out to the world.
Welcome again to Autistic Radio.
It's Jules, I'm speaking with Karen Timm.
(00:41):
There's a difference betweenus, as well as a big similarity.
The similarity, I think you're allgoing to guess, and it's going to be
obvious, is that we are both autistic.
The difference is, I am less experiencedin my knowledge of my autism, and
the amount of time I've had toeven, Recognize and understand it.
(01:06):
but there is somebody who has a lotmore information than me about it.
So, it's a pleasure to bespeaking to Karen Tim today.
Somebody I follow on, LinkedIn.
When I read what's written,I find it to be insightful.
(01:29):
Something that makes me goaway and think about it.
Is that okay if I blow smokeup your arse here, Karen?
Certainly.
Thank you for that.
I'm humbled by your
Words I think we'reall on our own journey.
I remember newly understanding and comingto terms with being autistic, several
(01:54):
years ago and learning from, peoplelike Lyric Holmans, who at the time
was, Krista Holmans, they've changedtheir name, a wee bit and, now is Lyric
Rivera, I came across their work onlinethey go by NeuroDivergent Rebel and
they're quite a bit younger than me.
Because of the sharing of their storiesand their own understanding, it was
(02:20):
extremely powerful I was experiencinga real awakening, you know, you
still don't diminish your own story.
You are where you are in your journey.
We all have opportunities to learn fromeach other that's part of it, right?
It's important that we notminimize our own lived experience.
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
(02:40):
I'm not trying to minimize.
I'm trying to doff myhat and show respect.
I'm really comfortable with where I am.
But the other thing is I can comeacross as a bit of an arse, I'm a
white privileged male who hasn'thad to mask that much, hasn't had
(03:03):
to accumulate a lot of trauma.
I have to be really careful thatmy outward confidence doesn't
come across to other people
as a difficulty.
I mean, can you have any sympathywith somebody as privileged as me?
(03:24):
Yeah, no, but, but I thinkthat's interesting because even
in that it's masking, right?
, you're having to translate the world.
To how you would be seen andsoften the approach, right?
, that's very interesting.
We all present very uniquely men,women non binary folks, you know,
(03:45):
et cetera, around the world.
In my experience women are oftenseen as, too much or, , too intense
or too, it's always, it's alwaysprefaced with to something, right?
And, and even as children thathappens early, way before people
know that they're autistic.
Little girls are, , the people pleasersor the overly dramatic or the too
(04:10):
emotional or the this or that labeled inso many ways way before , we encounter
a diagnostic process for those whoeven have the privilege to do so.
It sounds to me as what you'resaying is this is a misogynistic
world in which women have to adaptwhether they are autistic or not
(04:34):
and The standards by which women are
held to, happens right back in the family.
Mothers and fathers do itand it's an extra layer when
that person is also autistic.
Have I understood?
(04:56):
Yeah, I, I mean, I think so,
being in education I've witnessedmany little girls in particular
who, as they enter the school systemthey, they come in as close to
their authentic self as they can be.
(05:18):
Then they spend , their primary years into, their, , preteen and teen years developing
who they are, but it's all geared towho they think they're supposed to be.
They're already kind of themselvesand then they have to change
(05:39):
who they are and I say have to.
I mean it is survival in many ways becauseso much of what we have to do is, is
driving to, fit in even though later onwe come back to , the need to not fit in.
So I think many of us go through
, ups and downs of whatdegree do we want to fit in?
(05:59):
When we think about.
autistic masking, we know thatit's conscious, but also very
unconscious or subconscious.
And there's so many layers to this,not just for women, , for men and women
right from our earliest socializations.
(06:21):
I always think back to the exampleof eye contact in many cultures
eye contact is considered respect.
It's how we communicate quotenormally by making eye contact.
And those early indicatorsin many cultures.
of a baby connecting withtheir family is this eye gaze.
(06:45):
And lots of autistics still do that.
But if you think about the reinforcementthat we get as little humans, as infants,
every time we're looking at makingeye contact with new people, right?
It's that, it's the oohing and the awingand the, the positive reinforcement.
(07:07):
, That's reinforcing a maskingresponse if that , eye gaze or
looking at somebody new to you inthe eyes doesn't feel comfortable.
It's layers and layers of masking , manyof us are if not all of us are on
a perpetual journey throughout ourlives to figure out how much of us is
(07:27):
the mask and how much of it is not.
Hmm.
I, I fully agree with you.
You could describe what I, what Idid to hold up and say look I am
privileged and I am being careful.
I am being careful to be considerate.
I am being careful to be polite.
(07:48):
I'm being careful in that way tokind of demonstrate my knowledge
to say, look, you're safe here.
I've thought about it.
I know, I know, you know to methat, that, that, that felt that
I was doing that intellectually.
It didn't feel like a mask.
Cause in the end, without soundingrude, I could walk away at any
(08:11):
time . I do feel that privileged.
I do not feel as though somebodyhas any right over me to ask
me to look in their eyes.
I do look in people's eyes becauseI'm interested sometimes, because I
want to see what's going on with them,whether their pupils are moving or
(08:33):
I want to see little different microexpressions, but I am very aware that
the majority of the time I, I do notgive people eye gaze and I do not
expect them to request it from me.
If they request it from me,I see that as an aggression.
So this is why I kind of tried to putacross this feeling that I have is
(08:56):
that I've got away with it very easily.
I come from neurodivergent parentand I have never really been forced
to act according to social mores butI have looked around me and decided
(09:17):
what is useful for me so maybethat's masking or maybe that's being,
maybe that's just being a bit canny.
I don't know how to, tojudge that for myself.
What I do know is I don't feelI'm in any harm from this, but
other people are, aren't they?
(09:37):
Yeah, well, I mean, and the thing is, it's
I think it's how we decide whetherwe're harmed or not, right?
So what somebody may feel is them beingharmed, somebody else may not feel
that that's them being harmed, right?
I too, although my my parents were neverdiagnosed with anything we were all of
(10:03):
in agreement that, that I too am from aneurodivergent, a neurodivergent family.
Parents and likely grandparentsaunts, uncles, you name it.
I was very fortunate some of my privilegealso you know, shared with you being
a white presenting human Englishspeaking in an English speaking country.
(10:31):
It was never forced upon me either we justkind of got each other there are nuances
and things that we joke about now, right?
Like, that we now recognize.
they seemed just normal to usbut they wouldn't necessarily be
things that were considered normalin, , non autistic families.
(10:54):
, I didn't feel those pressures.
However, in, , a school setting orworkplace setting even to this day
You know, in the last little whileI've had conversations with superiors
about eye contact when we're doingsessions to teach teachers how to
(11:16):
communicate or teach leaders howto communicate with each other.
We should not be defaulting to saying thatmaking good eye contact is an expectation
and that if you don't do that then youare not communicating well with families,
because the assumption is, , That this ishow they want to be received, that's not
(11:39):
the case for, for many families, , theydon't want eye contact neurodivergence,
, sensory reasons, it could be forcultural faith based reasons, right?
, we know there are many faiths andcultures where eye contact is not
something that is automatically equatedwith respect or good communication.
(12:02):
When I am open about the factthat eye contact feels gross in
some circumstances for me I'mcapable of doing it, absolutely.
What I advocate for is for us to notassume those neuro normative standards
(12:24):
are the best way of doing things thatwe shouldn't , make blanket statements
about, , what does good communicationlook like, what does good listening look
like, what does good, whatever look like.
, yes harms are caused In job interviews,it happens in in the workplace.
(12:46):
When people are doing appraisals ofyou, it happens when you disclose
things about yourself that.
Maybe you have masked for a verylong time and people might say
that's successful in quotes, but
when you're expending inordinateamounts of energy to do those things
(13:08):
and they're actually not beneficialfor everyone, then you're losing
out on other things you couldbe using that energy for, right?
That may not hit you until you get homefrom a long day's work or a commute.
, a day attending appointmentsor what have you.
Maybe people don't see how it hits you,but it does hit you you only have , so
(13:30):
much energy or some of us will sayspoons to expend throughout a day.
Yeah.
Kind of social battery theory.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Social battery is another goodway of putting it for sure.
It's lovely to hear thatyou're in the education system.
(13:50):
And you're advocating there,you're advocating early on.
It seems to me that it's the educationsystem that when people talk to me a
lot about this, is when, it's the partof their lives that they are able to
hone in on and say, , that, these arethe incidents, these are the things
(14:14):
that I remember that I had to deal with.
But it also is the case that thatis also the time of the age of them,
you know, they didn't have a choice.
Everyone was put throughthe education system at
the same time.
So there's a coincidence in it.
(14:38):
, is the education system actuallydesigned to, make us neuro normative?
Is it the whole idea of itfrom its first principles?
To get the kids to behave in a usefulway for them to then be the cannon fodder
(15:03):
for the army or for the workplace orfor the, for the industrialized world
because we only really started educatingkids when, when they had left the farms
and when they were moving into the townsand cities, you know, is that the truth?
Yeah, I, I mean, I remember discussingthis with somebody else the education
(15:26):
system if you look to some of the oldestones, the traditional system certainly
North America, , but I think also in UK,, we're not looking at, , an ageless system.
, In comparison to the existence of thehuman brain and human species that is
(15:47):
in its infancy , it feels like it's beenaround forever, but it really hasn't.
It was developed to you know,create to, you know affirm aspects
of culture , strengthening idealswhether that be faith based, generally
(16:09):
across the world, there's lots ofdifferent, , ways of, of experiencing
the world, but it's to reinforce, the majority, wherever that is.
And, In an industrialized societyand a capitalistic society,
the workforce is created.
and tiered based on levelsof education, right?
(16:31):
And those that traditionally go through, the most education, , meritocracy for lack
of a better term they're rewarded, right?
With the better jobs better payawards and accolades it's not geared.
To meet the needs ofdifferent kinds of learners.
(16:55):
And when I say different, I mean,everyone has different ways of
learning and receiving information.
It's geared to what's still considereda majority population even today.
It takes a long time for changeit's very hard to be patient
waiting for that change to happen.
(17:16):
So, what we're seeing now is a lotof people, as they're telling their
stories and sharing their realitiesand their reflections , their
experiences in education, both youngand , current students, those who
have graduated and those who wentthrough the education system even
decades ago we're seeing more and moreeducators wanting to change things.
(17:43):
Recognizing that it's almostimpossible to wait for policies
and processes and procedures totake hold before you make change.
A lot of educators are looking fornew and innovative ways to meet
the needs of diverse learners.
For one, it's survival for them,because it's almost impossible to
(18:06):
teach in traditional system and meetthe needs of learners and not have.
, all kinds of challenges, whenyou're over stimulating sensorally,
learners, , there will be conflicts.
There will be meltdowns.
There will be really unfortunatecircumstances because the needs of
so many learners are not being met.
(18:29):
Kids ostracizing each other , those thatare the seen as the norm are in power,
? There's a lot of power and privilege.
And education is like a microcosmof society, we're not getting
kids ready for the real world.
Schools are the real world.
What we do in schools, Hasa lot more ripples, creating
(18:56):
society than, we realize.
When we create innovativeschools where kids.
Can feel like they can bethemselves, they're the ones going
to be changing things sustainably
. Okay, I want to try and say this back to you in a simple way and
(19:17):
see if it, if it gets there.
Schools are new, according to thelength of time we have been teaching
each other and passing on informationfrom one generation to another.
. They were set up when therewas an industrialized society.
(19:37):
At the beginning, they mostlyjust passed on the religion
and the culture of the people.
Children were taken into a place whenthey could no longer work alongside their
parents in the factories and the mills,and they were taken away and looked after
(19:59):
by people who then enforced a certainset of standards and gradually We hope
educational reforms into a way of skillingour workforce and giving a meritocracy or
competition based system with exams andways of Grading people so that we could
(20:22):
pick out the people who were going tohave the biggest opportunities and we're
going to get the possibilities in societyand that's how it's worked fairly well
over the last hundreds of years or so.
But you're saying the educationaliststhemselves now possibly.
(20:44):
Only during the last 50, maybe evendown to the last 30, maybe even on the
last 10 years are trying from withinchange the system and change the way
things are done because they can'twait for the top down to reach them.
They have to do it with their owngut feeling about how we adapt to
(21:05):
children rather than make childrenadapt to everyone else and just enforce
the modern society's rules on them.
Is that vaguely where we are?
I ended with, the idea of power andprivilege, education is a system and
systems are created through powerand privilege, if the ideals of that
(21:26):
system are to select those who areConsidered the best on the on a scale
of 1 to 10 who's considered the best.
Who's got the highest marks?
Who's got this or that?
Then it just continues to reinforce thisnotion or this gold standard human, ? But
(21:48):
the diversity of humans, the diversityof human thought and experiences and
how we receive and process information.
Over an entire species, it's not onekind of person that is some ideal.
In order for a species to flourish andthrive, we need to be cross pollinating.
(22:09):
We need to be learning from each other.
We need to be, sharing ideas andseeing things in different ways.
What's happening is out of necessity , totry and meet the needs of diverse learners
that are presenting in our classrooms.
They've always been there.
(22:31):
In previous generations.
And there still are, a lot of isolation,there was a lot of exclusion, there was
a lot of You know, really eugenics basedthinking , to be strong worded about it.
We're far from where we needto be in terms of trying to be
(22:53):
more inclusive in our schools.
Once we start to get more neurodivergentpeople, being open and recognizing
their own neurodivergence as educatorsAnd we get neurodivergent educators
into more leadership positions.
That's where we see this crosspollination of ideas becoming positive
(23:19):
moves , embracing neurodiversity andmeeting the needs , and implementing
universal design for learning.
There's a lot of talk in educationas there are in all systems.
politicians and all the talk thathappens there, it's really not much
different we know that kids as wellas adults, but kids do best when
(23:44):
they feel heard, , seen, valued,represented, when they go to school
thanks.
But when they see themselves representedin the people educating them, it doesn't
mean that every educator , needs tobe the same as , their, their student.
We're all unique humans, it'samazing when you see the change
(24:09):
in a child when they hear theirteacher is openly neurodivergent.
or their administrators openlyneurodivergent when they are embracing
their identity because they don'tfeel like they're, quote, different.
They, they feel like they belong, right?
Like they have, they, theyhave found community and, and
(24:30):
that's so extremely powerful.
, there's a lot of thingshappening in education today.
The phrase is, you can'tbe what you can't see.
Look, it's wonderfulhearing what you're saying.
And hearing the amount ofknowledge and care and thought
(24:53):
that you're putting into this
is affecting me, it touches me.
But there's this big weighted pendulumthat I see swinging through society.
And it is about enforcingconstructed norms.
(25:18):
Across society.
So?
Just south of you, I read that the newadministration in the United States is
looking to de woke schools, to removeprogressive ideas from schools by putting
(25:40):
them under pressure in various ways.
They have been doing it.
in the lower ends of schools bymaking it impossible for diversity
to be in books in certain areas.
So what I see in America, Ialso feel is happening almost
(26:05):
everywhere else that I am aware.
This right wing, almost fascist,version of the world, because people
have looked to that for certainty.
And this idea of diversity, thisdiversity of which I am part of, just
(26:28):
as I get to the point where enough ofpeople like you have done enough of the
ground, it looks as though all the doorsare going to be slammed in our faces.
This is my fear.
It's hard I try not to get toopolitical in these things but I, I
(26:48):
think that the reality is, again,it's about power and privilege.
It's all politics, Karen.
It is all politics.
This is people.
It's the politics, you know.
But I think what people neglect to realizeis that in a certain politician's quest
(27:12):
to be this supreme leader, his storywas one of being dehumanized and made
to feel less than for a very long time.
There's more than enough information outthere to illustrate that this person of
whom we speak is extremely neurodivergent
(27:36):
and does everything he can to, suppress.
any indication of labelsfor X, Y, or Z, not
just for himself, but also for his child,which there have been speculations about.
And that's nobody's business, and Iget that, but when you're a public
(27:56):
figure, you come under scrutiny.
I think what's so unfortunate is that
when we have somebody who has, hasinternalized so much ableism, learned
that You have to be , creative,innovative and all of those things, but
the reality is it's still ruthlessness.
(28:19):
, it's still about trying to bethe best, but at all costs,
it's a compensatory strategy.
That's where, , we go wrongbecause the privilege and power.
Compiled with the ableism causes thesethings , causes so much harm to the
(28:42):
person, but also to whoever they impact.
When you add the privilegeand power to that, it's a very
dangerous combination, right?
Somebody who, could do allkinds of great things ends up
causing a great deal of harm.
And . Even the term woke and dewoke, , it's just, it's all ridiculous.
(29:06):
We have a diverse population of humanbeings and we have to be responsive.
It's incumbent upon us to be responsiveto diverse population and anyone that
is trying to neglect the needs of adiverse population is using their power
(29:30):
and privilege to perpetuate normality,and there is no such thing as normal.
, it's really sad and it's very scary.
Many Canadians do not wantto go down to the States.
I remember receiving the news thefirst time this happened, and I openly
(29:52):
wept in the school office with othereducators because we were just so, like,
dumbfounded that this election went theway that it did the first time around.
We're a bit removed from it becausewe're in Canada, , but yes, it does
have implications across the world.
(30:14):
I want, I want to pullit out of this fire.
. One of my roles here
is to push some pretty uncomfortablequestions out there, not to, not
to hurt people, but to give us theopportunity to answer them, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.
(30:37):
One of the advocates that we're speakingwith at the moment, he calls it the
Socratic principle, bringing peopleto conclusions by asking them the
questions, not telling them the answers.
I too,
had A reaction, I can't say I've hadthe reaction recently shortly after
(30:58):
the end of the first term, it was mybelief that he would get the second
term anyway, I, I saw the, the secondpresident as fairly short term, not
different enough, not grasping theproblems that had led us to this decision.
Populism was more powerful than ideas.
(31:21):
However,
That's a democracy with 25 percentof the people voting because,
, there's a large group of peoplethat either didn't vote, couldn't
vote, or voted in a different way.
So, the knowledge we have,Neurodiversity in this case, or any
(31:44):
other embracing difference in humanbeings, the genie is out of the bottle.
We need to just keep disseminatingthe information through the society.
However the pendulum stands, the pendulumstands at the moment, and things will get
(32:06):
tough, things will get sticky, and thenthey will . Unfold, fall apart, we need
to make sure that the ideas keep movingin the background and that we keep helping
each other in the background and spreadingsome peace and love throughout the world.
(32:28):
I, I think we must take a step backfrom our emotions and not be Bullied by
what looks like extreme power, becauseit isn't in the end extreme power.
Right.
We are the people and our knowledge andour understanding of ourselves and our
(32:54):
feelings of ourselves and our embracingof other people and the connections
we make with other people are alwaysmore important than the systems.
, you could see that through communism.
You can see this through this.
quasi fascism that we'reunder at the moment.
Are you okay with that?
(33:15):
Yeah,
very much a believer in, the ideaof bridging, redefining community.
Along the lines of what you'resaying a lot of the work that I do Is
international for that very reason becauseworking within the local community.
(33:39):
, that's great.
You can help lots of peoplein the local community.
You can't shift thinking.
You can't cross pollinate.
And have the impact if you are notconnected with, a broader matrix.
(33:59):
Early on in my journey to understandwhere we need to go next and,
what had been done in the pastand, what's the knowledge base.
I first learned from some of the,the top autistics, through research
or taking , training courses
(34:21):
, finding out who were the people tolearn from when it came to things like
the United Nations Convention on theRights of Persons with Disabilities
and creating and adding tothis international matrix.
From there.
Like, I attribute anything that I doto a we because I carry with me all of
(34:48):
the learnings from my communications,from my collaborations, from, early on
hosting, , Twitter spaces together andmeeting that way in the first year.
For the first time I mean, I spearheadedan international summit this way , I
guess it's now about almost 3 years ago.
(35:10):
It was literally through theseconnections trying to amplify.
Bring more people together.
Those relationships are just aspowerful, if not more powerful
than many of the connections manyof us have in our local spaces
We're only a WhatsApp message awayit's quite amazing to see many of us
(35:32):
have written books this way startedfoundations this way that's where the
redefining of this knowledge base.
is happening.
Very,
affirming and also hopeful, being witnessto the change in the knowledge base if you
(35:57):
were to look up the word autism 10 yearsago to 7 or 8 to 5 years , the change now
that we're seeing is we're at this tippingpoint and whether we've hit it or not.
I don't know.
I think it's going tocontinue to fluctuate.
(36:19):
. It used to be impossible to findresearch by autistics, not because
there wasn't research being done byautistics, but just because we didn't
know who the autistic researchers were,and now we're seeing so many of us.
getting into changing theknowledge base intentionally.
(36:44):
Many of us are,, are in graduate studiesnow, not because we need to be, because
we want to contribute to the narrative in,in ways that are considered, validated you
have to do this through academia, right?
, even children's picture books, justabout three, maybe four years ago, when
(37:05):
I had been , open about being diagnosed,I was already many years into my career
as a, as a school leader, and somebodyhad asked me to do a guest reading,
their school online, and the book they'dselected for me was a book that, and I
won't say its name, but it was a bookthat, Was well known is a children's book.
(37:27):
I didn't like the book necessarily.
, it had what many would would believe tobe a positive message, but when you dig
deeper, it wasn't written by an autistic.
, it didn't, it didn't speak to me I wentlooking for a book that spoke to me.
that told my story so that Icould feel more authentic in that.
(37:50):
And I couldn't find one.
So that night I , wrote a picture book.
, I was then convinced, you know, you'vegot to publish this and what have you.
That is still in the works.
It can be a slow process whenyou're trying to stay true to
your authentic story, but now.
(38:12):
If you are an autistic child or a familyof an autistic and you're looking for
picture books or you're looking for, youknow, personal narratives by autistics
there's, there's so many and it's so mucheasier to find representation that way.
, it's brilliant the way that I thinkwe're, we're hitting academia and we're
(38:33):
hitting, , the media where there are morerepresentative , they're not all really
great, but we're seeing autistic actorsplaying autistic characters, right?
Which we didn't use to see.
We used to only see thisterrible single narrative, right?
, the stories that are beingtold, the research there.
(38:53):
With all of those things.
We broaden the narrative to createa safe space for people to say,
well, yeah, I'm autistic too, right?
Autistic now means somethingdifferent to a lot of people, but
it's still very misunderstood bymost in the general population.
(39:14):
Let me give a call out now to thelistener in Singapore, to the listener in
Vatican City, to the listener in Mexico.
To the listener in the northern partsof Europe, to the many listeners across
the African continent, to people inNorth America, obviously all of the
(39:39):
English speaking parts of the world.
Let me give a call out to you.
There are others.
There is a network.
There are plenty of otherresources to network into.
Use the people you hear on autisticradio to give you a key in to other
(40:01):
people for those connections andthen follow and find their network.
We might just be the door to you.
Mm hmm.
But it's a real pleasure that youhave allowed us into your ears today.
Karen, I hope that there willbe an opportunity to speak to
(40:26):
you again at another junction.
Mm hmm.
Do you think that will be possible?
Yeah, absolutely.
And like you just said, you know, I,I am always open to collaborations and
communications, but I'm also you know,very much geared to amplifying the voices.
(40:50):
And so I would definitely encouragepeople to you know, definitely follow
the work that you and I are doing.
To also check out the partners,the collaborations , I
founded, the NeuroDivergentInfinity Network of Educators.
, we have a growing number ofpartners all the world and, we
(41:13):
draw upon each other, right?
Their podcasts and theireducational events, publications.
It's really, it's really brilliant to see.
What's happening all around I encouragepeople to check out those resources again.
Karen name it again
So it's nine and I ne the neurodivergentinfinity network of educators
(41:38):
the program notes everything We'llbe there for you every social media
link for the network there in thelink somewhere thing for you to click
on so that you can find your placeout there alongside with all of the
rest of us, all of us bound togethertwigs that make a really strong trunk.
(42:04):
Thank you for listening today andespecially thank you to Karen Timm,
it's been a pleasure chatting,always open to the dialogue.
What I like to say is ripplesbecome waves, and this is one
more ripple that we're sending outthere, So let's become those waves.
Autistic Radio is about us,it's for us, and it's from us.
(42:31):
Autistic Radio is about you, it'sfor you, and it can be from you.
We have, every single Sunday, Drop in.
4 4 4 p. m. every Sunday.
That's not live.
That's us getting together.
(42:52):
Us talking.
Community.
Every Sunday, Harry leads a 5 55 p. m. A discussion around the
Facebook page that he creates.
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry.
(43:14):
And then, the bigger picture.
Advocate.
Use us.
Speak to the world.
Your project.
Your idea.
Your enthusiasm.
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
(43:35):
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
we also make serious programs withAutism professionals, challenging
(43:56):
their ideas and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
(44:17):
We need a favour.
To encourage us, we need you to share us.
When you share us, yougive autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
Autism When you repost on LinkedInand Facebook and anywhere else,
(44:42):
you're advocating for everybodyin the autistic community.
So pick the things that you'rehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you, from all of us.
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