June 6, 2025 • 43 mins
Autistic Artist Raymond
Talks travel and masking with Jules
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(00:03):
We speak our words, we listen,we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
When we were talking last time,Raymond, there was something that struck
(00:24):
me from the text that you sent me.
You said that you endured travel until,with panic, you couldn't take it anymore.
And you also described that you hadthis long boat trip over to Shetland
at 23 years old, which seemed like avery young age, , to go to an island.
(00:51):
What's the panic thing that I'm missing?
What's that about?
I
think that really came in in the 1990s.
Travel that I'd done on buses andthings in the 1980s was the endurance,
as it were, to get to , friendswho were far away, so, the bus
(01:15):
trips were quite you know, arduous.
And the ultimate one was the boat tripfrom Aberdeen to Shetland to Lerwick.
, that was 12, 14 hours in a
storm.
That was because my friends were inShetland and they had moved up six
(01:39):
months prior to escape a major housingscheme in Edinburgh where their
council flat was becoming a nightmare.
And, I missed them and thought I'llgo up and visit for a brief holiday
and was offered a caravan and
motivated myself to stay with onemore trip down to Edinburgh to
(02:01):
collect some things and go back
up.
Travel for you up until that point,talking about hitching and going over
to the continent with other people,the travel aspect of it was a grind.
It was at well out of your comfort zone.
(02:24):
, most people see it as a, an adventure.
Something to go and doand get away from things.
, But you described it as somethingyou couldn't take anymore.
And the panic had set in.
When I was 17 or 18, travelwas an idealistic concept.
(02:46):
It was, in a sense, anadventure in the mind.
I'd read On the Road by Jack Kerouac.
, My friend, also slightly underthat influence, had previously
taken a hitchhiking tripdown to Kent from Edinburgh.
(03:09):
This was many years before he went thereas a student to study physics, , so
I don't know if they were related Sohe'd, set the trail and asked me if
I wanted to maybe join him in anotherone, one summer to go to Amsterdam.
(03:29):
So that was our plan.
And I left work to do all this.
So it was a major move I was making.
Everybody was disappointed in me.
But
I was kind of followingsomething I felt I needed to do.
But as soon as we started doingthat, it was just, you know, long
hours on the road, trying to hitcha lift, meeting some crazy people,
(03:54):
, sleeping under flyovers, havingnightmares, , nothing too disastrous.
We got there.
We met some good people.
In fact, the major person we met onthe boat was a Dutch guy who told us to
visit him in Tilburg in Southern Hollandin a squat, a very organized squat.
(04:17):
So we did our Amsterdam thing, as Imentioned to you previously, I was
mugged there in the park, , had abit of a paranoid session consuming
things, , but when I got into TilburgI felt okay, but then my friend's
money ran out and he decided togo back home, so I was on my own.
At that point it was a kind ofreal adventure, so I'm living
(04:40):
on my wits, so it became quitestrenuous and then I came back home.
via London while Princess Diana wasgetting married and another very long
trip up in a car up the M1 which droppedme in Berwick late at night, no money and
(05:06):
no ticket and I was going to sleep undera tree but when I went into the station
the guy said a Freedom of Scotland cardhad been handed in and I could use it to
get me back to Edinburgh that night andSo it's loads of stories can reel off from
that of serendipity got home I went to
a place I used to work in andmy friend who worked there took
(05:32):
me back to his flat, which hadjust burnt down the night before.
It was crazy.
So anyway, that was very early days.
And I'd done a couple of vantrips with my mate up to the
west coast of Scotland to Skye.
Which was like working, , pickingshellfish, bringing it back to Edinburgh,
(05:54):
selling it, . We would just duck inand dive in while we were on the dole.
But mostly my travel wasrelated to me linking up with
friends in a kind of network.
Then in the 90s, the panic set in withthese long trips down to London and
the relationship I was involved in.
But panic was coming in withother circumstances too, just
(06:16):
escalated when I was travelling.
I'm wondering if at that time you sawthis as travel, or whether you saw
this as just what you had to do to keep
friendships and relationships going, , Iget the idea that you went along with
the fella to Amsterdam and Amsterdammust have, well, I know what Amsterdam
(06:39):
was like in those days because I visitedAmsterdam in those days and, , it wasn't
the cleaned up version that we see now.
, In fact, it was very counterculture.
I'm wondering whether it was travel.
in the sense of looking for adventure, orif it was just maintaining relationships.
(07:04):
Yeah, very much so.
It was all about having relationships.
It's, , not a solitary thing at all.
Although there was an element of thatwhen you were on the bus doing the
trip, you know, but the goal was toconnect and meet up with other people.
(07:24):
And so any traveling I've done, it'snot been for an intended purpose.
Like a holiday or an explorationof a new place on my own.
It's been to connect withpeople at a distance.
And, , when I've heard other peopletalk about their adventures traveling,
it's interesting, but I am notturned on by it in the way you would
(07:48):
be by something that engages you.
We're looking at the relationshipof autism and travel.
, and I would say that.
There's something in autism and travel forme that means that I get away from things
and I get into a different world where I'mable to be independent, even in control
(08:13):
of my own world in a complete way, andto get away from the normative world that
goes along with, , the neurotypical world.
And for me, as an autistic man, beingaway traveling is a way of being within
myself, and you're describing Somethingquite different, but if people are
(08:35):
listening to you, they're thinking,good God, that man did these things.
He was young and , it was like a movie.
It was like on the road, you know.
, whether you say in your text thatthere was a reason you were going to
visit friends or you were going tobe with friends, and that you were
never on the road, being on the roadactually came and found you, didn't
(08:59):
it?
I think on the road is when youhave no purpose, you're just
going, you're just travelling.
It could be anywhere, itcould be quite random.
, and I say that because there were timeswhen I experienced that feeling, usually
through accidental circumstances.
(09:22):
I was aware of it, but it's notsomething that intrigued me much.
It was quite frightening, butyeah, it's the same yet different
from what you do, what I do.
I'm kind of like tryingto transform home or base
or roots, whereas I think you're
(09:45):
moving away from that
to something else and makinga transformation, exploration.
So I was always trying to changewhere I was into something radical.
And so I would follow friends for thatbecause they were my radical connections.
(10:08):
I want to read a sentence that youwrote because I find it quite poetic.
At 17, hitching was a nightmare,but we made it to Amsterdam.
Diverted dreams of on the road.
I ended up overstaying ata squat in South Holland.
Found drug and counterculture acceptance.
(10:31):
Easy masks.
So
am I to say something about that?
, Easy masks is me reflecting onlifestyle choices I made back then,
which , felt quite natural to me,
were in a sense masking.
(10:52):
They were almost needed to get byand they were what I saw as the
reason for most everything I did.
, staying in the squat in South Hollandwas me relaxing back into home.
I felt I could make a home thereif they allowed me to do it.
(11:15):
They said they would if I found a job.
So I went to look for a job thereand I thought, hey, I've fallen
back into the old trap again.
They want me to paint machineryin a factory so I can contribute
to these people who were providingme with a temporary home.
I could have been led down a path there,but I resisted it and came back to a
(11:40):
home that I was more comfortable with.
Although it was transforming.
The 80s were like that,especially the early 80s.
And I was young, so there was alot to find out about and develop.
Some people would read into that ideaof drug and counterculture acceptance
(12:04):
as falling into the wrong crowd.
Yeah.
Did you fall into the wrongcrowd or did you feel that
you fell into the right crowd?
Oh, neither really.
, These are judgements that dependon your position you take.
(12:24):
, Sometimes reflecting back on thosetimes, I think, I was young, right?
A lot of people were a wee bitolder, but they were only older
by about five to maybe 10 years.
But that can matter a lot when you'reyoung, depending on who's observing it.
So reluctant to use the word grooming,but You can see elements of that
(12:49):
going on in the counterculture.
But then, , society and cultures are fullof people guiding other people, mentoring
other people into different scenarios.
But a young person is vulnerable.
So it could have beenseen as the wrong crowd.
(13:10):
But it never felt like that.
I knew what the wrong crowd was for me.
I had a feeling for that.
There were elements within thecrowd I was in that I avoided.
So I was Marking out the space myself.
(13:31):
Does
that answer your question?
Well, it's not really aboutanswering questions, is it?
It's about exploring something andrelating it to both autism and being on
the road and being traveling and anything.
There are no answers really.
Does it make sense
(13:53):
then?
Yeah, anything you sayI think makes sense.
Around the same time I didsomething quite similar.
I took a train to
Austria.
I hooked up with a guy in a youth hostel.
(14:13):
, He was working on the, he was workingthe streets of, , Austria before
Christmas, selling trinkets and posters.
His name was Avi Avshalom.
He was, , a Jewish guy, Israeli guy.
With him was Dushko, a guyfrom the former Yugoslavia.
I fell in with these guysand I had a British passport.
(14:35):
So when we got arrested, Iwas released fairly , quickly.
, and there were various adventurestraveling through the night to
go to different towns and wakingup in the morning and walking
into hotels to clean your teeth,pretending that you were in there.
Then going off to spend the wholeday trying to, , sell things on
the streets for Christmas shoppingcrowds for the Christmas markets.
(14:58):
I look back and I see that wasquite a vulnerable young man,
that was, , a 17, 18 year old.
, But I never felt groomed and Inever felt taken advantage of.
I always felt as though there was , athing in the back of my head, looking
out for myself, which I see as autistic.
(15:18):
And it's something that Nicola saidwhen she was, interviewing me or
talking to me earlier about, , beingin India and being out late at
night , and getting into difficultand dangerous situations, perhaps, and
how I had dealt with them in the past.
And she was talking about thisautistic over awareness, this keenness
(15:39):
to be constantly on , your guard.
So do you think that you avoided , agrooming situation or whatever because
you were constantly on your guard?
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I sometimes see autonomous asalmost related to autistic.
So there was an autonomousthing going on in me.
(16:00):
I would never get too out of it.
I would never lose control.
, , that was debated at the time.
, I had a lot of people, friendswho were into the idea of losing
control, giving up the ego, andthat meant some extreme experiences.
(16:21):
I avoided all that.
What you were saying about, gettingarrested or getting in trouble, , at
a young age, , I think you veryquickly learn to not get caught.
It doesn't mean you give uptrying to play the system or work
out, uh, a way of getting by.
(16:43):
Because circumstances were prettycrappy, , the promise of a life
was being kind of pulled away
from you in the 80s.
We took certain jobs, you would get by,
we'd play the game.
But as you say, the guy you met wasselling trinkets in the street, that
(17:06):
sort of thing of like finding somethingto sell in order to make a living to
get by and buy things in the system.
As you get older and wiser youfind different ways of doing that.
Legit, semi legit, just enough to do it.
, so there's a balance, yeah.
(17:27):
You describe the disappointment withexperiencing travelling and how that
put you off the concept of travelling.
And you're very honest, you say, I tookall my shit with me to these places.
I took my false hopes and myfalse dreams I took my masks.
(17:53):
They were empty experiences, andI haunted myself like a ghost
in search of home comforts.
Do they have a Lidl, for instance?
That latter part, do they have aLidl, was kind of a reference to what
you had been discussing with Nicolaearlier, and what I had been discussing
(18:15):
with you about your time in India.
Sometimes, when travelling, you canfind a major city that will provide you
with a certain amount of home comforts.
a supermarket.
, Back then, what that was for me, and Iremember this vividly, was how am I going
to get by without chocolate biscuits?
(18:38):
, I'd be in the house of friends who, didn't do that thing of a cup of tea
and some chocolate biscuits, which Idid at home, my little indulgences.
, So I thought I'm going to bewith them all this time and
not have a chocolate biscuit.
And then there was things like timewould just get endless sometimes in other
(18:58):
people's company and quite intimidating.
And especially during those times withthe masks and under the influence.
That could be a bit paranoid.
So, taking all my shit to theseplaces was the fact that, , I had my
(19:20):
routine, I was kind of a homebody.
I liked my home, I liked my base.
And when I went tosomewhere else, I lost that.
You know, I lost that feelingof security sometimes.
And so I was on edge.
(19:40):
And very often I remember attimes I felt like I was acting.
So, we really are looking forthe autistic aspect of this.
That's where it's beginning to come in.
There was a certain amount ofexpediency that you wanted to be away
with your friends, and you wanted tohave a little bit of an adventure.
(20:02):
You wanted to see Amsterdam, you wanted totry some drugs out, you wanted to have a
little bit of blow, you wanted to have abit of an adventure, but in the end, you
were actually just masking and fitting in,and you would have really rather been at
home.
Yeah, because Essentially, you can seethere's something going on here before I
(20:24):
even travelled, before I even left school.
, That person was looking for a mask.
A way of getting through life, , and ata very early age met the counterculture.
I actually went looking for itbecause somehow I sniffed it out.
(20:48):
I'm questioning myself and I'm thinkingthere are definite parts that I was
doing exactly the same at exactly thesame time for exactly the same reasons.
I
mean, we call them masks now, butit was more described as a, um,
(21:10):
I see it as an escape, butan escape into here and now.
I think, to some extent, it wascreating a character for yourself.
, and you were trying to, sorry, Iwas trying to do it in a way that
had aspects that, I thought were
(21:32):
strong enough to be independent,strong enough to keep people away
from me, and strong enough to alsobe admired or accepted for something.
The romantic idea of the outsider.
(21:55):
, books like Steinbeck, where charactershad their own sense of being, and they
had various things that went with it, liketobacco pouches, or, a nice pair of boots
or symbols of, , a desirable character,, an adult you would like to be, maybe
(22:19):
rejecting all of the conformist thingsthat were offered, like dressing as
a punk instead of just being a punkor following fashions, almost an
anti fashion, but Like you're saying,was it looking for an identity?
(22:41):
No, it was looking for a mask.
It was looking for a, , a shell.
Something to protect oneselffrom, I'm guessing for me.
Possibly, I should reflecton that a bit more.
But, , yeah, there wasall these, , role models.
Because we were being givenrole models at that age anyway.
(23:04):
Just we were very, I wasvery uncomfortable with
the role models I was being
offered.
, The wandering walks that we used to doas kids, the wandering in our minds we
used to do, we're looking for something.
And, , if we were lucky, we may havefound that through the institutions and
(23:25):
the society's conditioning and schools.
You then saw these role models that seemedto be providing, , a bohemian, romantic
kind of, , experience that felt better.
, but what you find out is that's work too.
(23:48):
That implies you've got to make certaincommitments and do certain things and
follow certain guidances and rules.
And it's like after a while you think,no, honestly, I don't want that either.
I want something a bit freer.
And it's very difficultto be free, I find.
It needs a kind of disciplineand that can be a bit difficult.
(24:12):
So where this is in theautistic experience, who knows?
It certainly led to a lot of thingsthat caused what you were asking earlier
about the panic, which is a traumato a certain extent, , an acquired
stress reaction
(24:34):
to, , misalignment and the
ill fit
of one's being.
I think the paragraph that youthen wrote has all kinds of
interesting messages in it.
On the face of it, it actually soundsas though it's a romanticisation,
(24:57):
but reading it two or three times, itmakes me feel differently about it.
I'm going to read it as though it's a, asthough it's an attractive, poetic thing.
The nomad itinerant, salesman of hiswares, is in business, is industrious,
(25:20):
crafting the satisfaction of needs,the exotic, the rare, the prestige
of silk roads and trade routes,carving up the body of the planet.
God's will is that weutilize all resources.
And after the conquest, the tourists.
(25:41):
So when I read that first, I get takenaway with words like nomad and itinerant
salesman and wares and business andindustrious and silk roads and trade
routes, all , very, um, romanticized.
You're really pointing out the irony here.
(26:03):
That what appears to be romantic isactually business and industry and it's
about satisfaction of the needs, the basicneeds, the, the using of resources, and if
(26:27):
a man is on a camel taking things acrossdeserts, that's a romantic idea, but the
reality is what he's actually doing isjust moving chemicals from one place to
another or And Materials from one place toanother, and you're pointing out that all
of that was both carving up the planet,and it was utilizing the resources,
(26:56):
and it was a conquest of new lands.
It was a colonization of new lands.
It was a taking of resources, and travelhas always been associated with that,
going off to new lands and raping them.
(27:18):
And then you bring it to thepresent, right into my face, where
I am now, in Vasco da Gama, wherethe Portuguese landed in India.
Around me are Christian, , chapelsamongst the Hindu shrines and the Muslim
(27:38):
It was a conquest.
The Portuguese came here and took.
And what's left behind, the prettybuildings and the seafronts, is now
Being colonized by the tourists.
So everything in that paragraph isbringing all around to how we talk about
(28:04):
travel, but often travel is actuallyabout destroying, am I reading it right?
Yeah, very much so.
I'm glad you read it two or three timesbecause, , not a lot of people do that
when someone unknown produces writing.
, people are kinda dependent on aninstant kind of, , understanding.
(28:30):
, Okay, if you've got a reputationand people might give you time, so.
You said poetic.
Yeah, the poetic means thatyou just say something and then
eventually it reveals itself.
If you say things enough,they begin to reveal things.
And so I trust that when I'm writing.
(28:53):
, that sentence begins, the nomaditinerant, like in classic, , English
literature, practical criticism.
Who am I talking about?
Who is the nomad itinerant?
Is it me?
Well, , that whole paragraph is mereflecting on carbon footprint and
jet travel, the ability for you tobe in India, , the price paid for
(29:18):
that, going back through history.
As I will in my thinking throughwhat I know about history and the
development of that concept thatI'm kind of obsessed with just now
called making the impossible possible.
It's a very worrying concept becausewhat it creates, we have to be careful.
(29:44):
Doesn't mean we shouldn't attemptmaking the impossible possible,
but we have to take care.
So.
As you've interpreted trade comesfrom the word, well, all these words
like track and trace and trade arekind of related, carving a path,
carving a line through the labyrinth.
(30:07):
And as I'm writing that, I don't evenknow I'm making these connections.
I'm just putting one thingnext to another and seeing what
happens, which is kind of magic.
And so you end up.
Producing the phrase God's will is that weuse all resources, , it's expected of us
almost all resources, , even digital andinformation, which is eventually what it's
(30:34):
all going to be about selling information.
And the satisfaction he needs isme relating it back to myself at
that time, or even in the previousparagraph, , about a homeless, rootless
traveler romping around, , sellinga product of some sort in order to
(30:55):
get
by.
Sorry, I'll let you in.
Yeah, let's look at that.
The itinerant, like DavidBowie, fear flying, use boats
and trains to stay grounded.
Endless motion, homeless.
The homeless, rootless traveler,in one place, part of the
(31:19):
job, part of an industry.
The same industry, capitalism,that takes adaption to defy
the laws of physics and fly.
Making impossibles possiblewith all the consequences.
As using the sea had donebefore we took to the air.
(31:41):
Right.
That kind of begins with an identificationwith a, you know, a cultural figure
who in my youth was, , ever present.
, And he liked giving good interviews.
And so he was teaching in a sense,he related a lot of information.
(32:03):
Some of that information, like JackKerouac influenced me to attempt
to, try out that experience.
But in his interviews he revealedhe feared flying and so he
used a train, a Trans SiberianExpress, to get himself to Japan.
Why was he going to Japan?
(32:24):
He was in an industry of entertainment andcelebrity where he had to earn his crust.
So he was going on toursand, , things, meeting people.
fashion people.
So he used trains to do that and he usedboats to get to the USA and he never
(32:46):
came back for a number of years beforehe disappeared and the UK went punk.
, Cause he was a guiding figure, sort ofculturally at the time, in that milieu.
So,
These are all things coming fromthat early cultural influence
(33:09):
and I saw him as somebody who wasworking while he was on the road.
He eventually realised I thinkin future interviews that he
was never a home person.
He had homes, but he wasalways kind of in motion.
His songs reveal that,his writing reveals that.
(33:32):
It wasn't a game or a gimmick.
It was constant.
He was an alien.
He felt a stranger.
So, he was able to work within thatenvironment and it helped him thrive.
So, he is a characterrepresenting something there.
(33:52):
about coexisting with that industry ofcapitalism that takes human need, desire
for celebrities and ideas and teachings,and ingenuity as masks and adapting
them to become something entirely novel,, to defy the laws of physics and fly.
But there are consequencesfor that experience.
(34:15):
And I was relating itto, you know, airplanes.
I
just had a little look on the internetputting divergent with David Bowie as
a Google search and neurodivergent,
(34:35):
, because I had always considered,, no, let me reframe that.
Without exaggeration, because recentlywatching a documentary, , about Bowie,
he seemed to ring a lot of, bells withme, , with neurodivergent features, if not
(34:56):
A person that would have been diagnosed,somebody who is autism adjacent, let
me call it, , and there's people onlinesaying, no, he wasn't, , autistic in any
way, but there is lots of speculationthat he would have come under the, , the
wider umbrella, maybe ADHD or some otherlabel like that, , but if you just put
(35:19):
the word divergent with Bowie, thenthere's an awful lot about Bowie The wide
ranging art that he produced, the constantreinvention of different characters,
, the masking, the playfulness, therebuilding, , z Stardust major, , all of
(35:41):
the different characters that he produced.
, Personally, I have a strong feelingthat you would probably put Bowie
into the neurodivergent character.
He was a shy young boy.
He was very introverted.
He had a, a, a very strong inner life,and he was able to transgress, , all
(36:04):
of the social norms in a way thatpeople were unable to do in the
fifties and sixties and seventies.
So maybe there's something aboutthis, , maybe there's a link in
what you're saying, and there'sa link in why you chose Bowie.
There are a number of characters that onecould use or refer to in that context.
(36:33):
We're always careful about attaching thatkind of meaning to things, but here we
are, and we respond to what we respond to.
And in our youths, there maybe some keys there to things.
For us latchkey kids, , David Byrne isoften seen as a major influence in that
(36:56):
direction because, in a sense, he's hintedat being diagnosed with Asperger's and Any
of his lines that lodge in your head fromhis lyrics can just sum up a lot of what
you experience when you feel autistic.
And David Bowie to acertain extent was that too.
(37:18):
, for those that aren't aware, um, weren't alive in the 1980s even, , David Byrne is
part of Talking Heads, , a very seminalband, , and Gary Neumann has come out
as autistic, , with a diagnosis even.
And he
was a pilot.
(37:39):
Anyway, sorry, just drawingdaft connections which don't
really need to be made.
But
very much we grew up in a culturewhere there was a response
to individuals like that.
I can't remember
Gary Neumann's
band.
Chewbway Army.
You remember that?
Our friend's electric.
(38:01):
How old can you get?
And he was, and he was verymuch at the time accused of
being a Bowie clone, as were
many punks.
Now Ian Dury.
Ian Dury was disabled
by polio.
He had a song called SpasticusAutisticus, which, which at the time
(38:26):
was, , quite forward thinking, if yousee what I mean, quite ahead of its time.
But he was a previous generation.
He went through the art school thingof the early 60s, which was available
to a lot of divergent people.
But I've got to draw aquick connection here.
There's something I did recently.
(38:50):
,I looked up an old episode of Ripping Yarns by Michael Palin.
The second one, and it was about thisboring guy in Northern England, Yorkshire
somewhere, who was obsessed withrain, temp, rainfall, and how his life
transforms and he becomes interesting.
(39:13):
And I thought, I can't go postingthis anywhere neurodivergent,
I'll get excommunicated.
And then In response to it, I founda clip from the movie Billy Liar with
Tom Courtney playing this fantasist.
(39:33):
And it's a scene, it's a scenewhere he's about to go to London
in a train with Julie Christie.
And he deliberately missesthe train by jumping off it to
go and get a carton of milk.
And when he goes back tothe train departing, his
suitcase is on the platform.
(39:56):
And the hint is, the suggestionis, the Julie Christie character
was a fantasy in its head.
So, I just thought, wow, thesethings are just making so much
sense to me, in a strange way.
I'm going to leave the listenerto puzzle that one out.
(40:18):
We talked a little bit about travel,and we talked a lot about autism.
Thank you very much for joiningme today there, Raymond.
No problem, thanks.
That's the end of this episodeof Autistic Travelling.
If there's anything here that's inspiredyou, and you want to find a way of
(40:43):
travelling that's guided by other people,made accessible for you, I suggest you
speak to Alex at Autism Adventures Abroad.
Alex, where do they contact you?
Yeah, so you can find meat autismadventuresabroad.
com.
Also find me on Facebook and Instagramunder Autism Adventures Abroad.
(41:05):
If you want more information, grouptrips, you can go to DivergentAdventures.
com.
Autistic Radio is about us,it's for us, and it's from us.
Autistic Radio is about you, it'sfor you, and it can be from you.
(41:29):
We have, every single Sunday, Drop in.
4 4 4 p. m. every Sunday.
That's not live.
That's us getting together.
Us talking.
Community.
Every Sunday, Harry leads a 5 55 p. m. A discussion around the
(41:52):
Facebook page that he creates.
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry.
And then, the bigger picture.
Advocate.
Use us.
(42:13):
Speak to the world.
Your project.
Your idea.
Your enthusiasm.
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
(42:39):
we also make serious programs withAutism professionals, challenging
their ideas and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
(43:00):
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
We need a favour.
To encourage us, we need you to share us.
When you share us, yougive autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
(43:24):
Autism When you repost on LinkedInand Facebook and anywhere else,
you're advocating for everybodyin the autistic community.
So pick the things that you'rehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
(43:45):
Thank you, from all of us.
We speak our words, we listen,we speak our words, we listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
When we were talking last time,Raymond, there was something that struck
(00:24):
me from the text that you sent me.
You said that you endured travel until,with panic, you couldn't take it anymore.
And you also described that you hadthis long boat trip over to Shetland
at 23 years old, which seemed like avery young age, , to go to an island.
(00:51):
What's the panic thing that I'm missing?
What's that about?
I
think that really came in in the 1990s.
Travel that I'd done on buses andthings in the 1980s was the endurance,
as it were, to get to , friendswho were far away, so, the bus
(01:15):
trips were quite you know, arduous.
And the ultimate one was the boat tripfrom Aberdeen to Shetland to Lerwick.
, that was 12, 14 hours in a
storm.
That was because my friends were inShetland and they had moved up six
(01:39):
months prior to escape a major housingscheme in Edinburgh where their
council flat was becoming a nightmare.
And, I missed them and thought I'llgo up and visit for a brief holiday
and was offered a caravan and
motivated myself to stay with onemore trip down to Edinburgh to
(02:01):
collect some things and go back
up.
Travel for you up until that point,talking about hitching and going over
to the continent with other people,the travel aspect of it was a grind.
It was at well out of your comfort zone.
(02:24):
, most people see it as a, an adventure.
Something to go and doand get away from things.
, But you described it as somethingyou couldn't take anymore.
And the panic had set in.
When I was 17 or 18, travelwas an idealistic concept.
(02:46):
It was, in a sense, anadventure in the mind.
I'd read On the Road by Jack Kerouac.
, My friend, also slightly underthat influence, had previously
taken a hitchhiking tripdown to Kent from Edinburgh.
(03:09):
This was many years before he went thereas a student to study physics, , so
I don't know if they were related Sohe'd, set the trail and asked me if
I wanted to maybe join him in anotherone, one summer to go to Amsterdam.
(03:29):
So that was our plan.
And I left work to do all this.
So it was a major move I was making.
Everybody was disappointed in me.
But
I was kind of followingsomething I felt I needed to do.
But as soon as we started doingthat, it was just, you know, long
hours on the road, trying to hitcha lift, meeting some crazy people,
(03:54):
, sleeping under flyovers, havingnightmares, , nothing too disastrous.
We got there.
We met some good people.
In fact, the major person we met onthe boat was a Dutch guy who told us to
visit him in Tilburg in Southern Hollandin a squat, a very organized squat.
(04:17):
So we did our Amsterdam thing, as Imentioned to you previously, I was
mugged there in the park, , had abit of a paranoid session consuming
things, , but when I got into TilburgI felt okay, but then my friend's
money ran out and he decided togo back home, so I was on my own.
At that point it was a kind ofreal adventure, so I'm living
(04:40):
on my wits, so it became quitestrenuous and then I came back home.
via London while Princess Diana wasgetting married and another very long
trip up in a car up the M1 which droppedme in Berwick late at night, no money and
(05:06):
no ticket and I was going to sleep undera tree but when I went into the station
the guy said a Freedom of Scotland cardhad been handed in and I could use it to
get me back to Edinburgh that night andSo it's loads of stories can reel off from
that of serendipity got home I went to
a place I used to work in andmy friend who worked there took
(05:32):
me back to his flat, which hadjust burnt down the night before.
It was crazy.
So anyway, that was very early days.
And I'd done a couple of vantrips with my mate up to the
west coast of Scotland to Skye.
Which was like working, , pickingshellfish, bringing it back to Edinburgh,
(05:54):
selling it, . We would just duck inand dive in while we were on the dole.
But mostly my travel wasrelated to me linking up with
friends in a kind of network.
Then in the 90s, the panic set in withthese long trips down to London and
the relationship I was involved in.
But panic was coming in withother circumstances too, just
(06:16):
escalated when I was travelling.
I'm wondering if at that time you sawthis as travel, or whether you saw
this as just what you had to do to keep
friendships and relationships going, , Iget the idea that you went along with
the fella to Amsterdam and Amsterdammust have, well, I know what Amsterdam
(06:39):
was like in those days because I visitedAmsterdam in those days and, , it wasn't
the cleaned up version that we see now.
, In fact, it was very counterculture.
I'm wondering whether it was travel.
in the sense of looking for adventure, orif it was just maintaining relationships.
(07:04):
Yeah, very much so.
It was all about having relationships.
It's, , not a solitary thing at all.
Although there was an element of thatwhen you were on the bus doing the
trip, you know, but the goal was toconnect and meet up with other people.
(07:24):
And so any traveling I've done, it'snot been for an intended purpose.
Like a holiday or an explorationof a new place on my own.
It's been to connect withpeople at a distance.
And, , when I've heard other peopletalk about their adventures traveling,
it's interesting, but I am notturned on by it in the way you would
(07:48):
be by something that engages you.
We're looking at the relationshipof autism and travel.
, and I would say that.
There's something in autism and travel forme that means that I get away from things
and I get into a different world where I'mable to be independent, even in control
(08:13):
of my own world in a complete way, andto get away from the normative world that
goes along with, , the neurotypical world.
And for me, as an autistic man, beingaway traveling is a way of being within
myself, and you're describing Somethingquite different, but if people are
(08:35):
listening to you, they're thinking,good God, that man did these things.
He was young and , it was like a movie.
It was like on the road, you know.
, whether you say in your text thatthere was a reason you were going to
visit friends or you were going tobe with friends, and that you were
never on the road, being on the roadactually came and found you, didn't
(08:59):
it?
I think on the road is when youhave no purpose, you're just
going, you're just travelling.
It could be anywhere, itcould be quite random.
, and I say that because there were timeswhen I experienced that feeling, usually
through accidental circumstances.
(09:22):
I was aware of it, but it's notsomething that intrigued me much.
It was quite frightening, butyeah, it's the same yet different
from what you do, what I do.
I'm kind of like tryingto transform home or base
or roots, whereas I think you're
(09:45):
moving away from that
to something else and makinga transformation, exploration.
So I was always trying to changewhere I was into something radical.
And so I would follow friends for thatbecause they were my radical connections.
(10:08):
I want to read a sentence that youwrote because I find it quite poetic.
At 17, hitching was a nightmare,but we made it to Amsterdam.
Diverted dreams of on the road.
I ended up overstaying ata squat in South Holland.
Found drug and counterculture acceptance.
(10:31):
Easy masks.
So
am I to say something about that?
, Easy masks is me reflecting onlifestyle choices I made back then,
which , felt quite natural to me,
were in a sense masking.
(10:52):
They were almost needed to get byand they were what I saw as the
reason for most everything I did.
, staying in the squat in South Hollandwas me relaxing back into home.
I felt I could make a home thereif they allowed me to do it.
(11:15):
They said they would if I found a job.
So I went to look for a job thereand I thought, hey, I've fallen
back into the old trap again.
They want me to paint machineryin a factory so I can contribute
to these people who were providingme with a temporary home.
I could have been led down a path there,but I resisted it and came back to a
(11:40):
home that I was more comfortable with.
Although it was transforming.
The 80s were like that,especially the early 80s.
And I was young, so there was alot to find out about and develop.
Some people would read into that ideaof drug and counterculture acceptance
(12:04):
as falling into the wrong crowd.
Yeah.
Did you fall into the wrongcrowd or did you feel that
you fell into the right crowd?
Oh, neither really.
, These are judgements that dependon your position you take.
(12:24):
, Sometimes reflecting back on thosetimes, I think, I was young, right?
A lot of people were a wee bitolder, but they were only older
by about five to maybe 10 years.
But that can matter a lot when you'reyoung, depending on who's observing it.
So reluctant to use the word grooming,but You can see elements of that
(12:49):
going on in the counterculture.
But then, , society and cultures are fullof people guiding other people, mentoring
other people into different scenarios.
But a young person is vulnerable.
So it could have beenseen as the wrong crowd.
(13:10):
But it never felt like that.
I knew what the wrong crowd was for me.
I had a feeling for that.
There were elements within thecrowd I was in that I avoided.
So I was Marking out the space myself.
(13:31):
Does
that answer your question?
Well, it's not really aboutanswering questions, is it?
It's about exploring something andrelating it to both autism and being on
the road and being traveling and anything.
There are no answers really.
Does it make sense
(13:53):
then?
Yeah, anything you sayI think makes sense.
Around the same time I didsomething quite similar.
I took a train to
Austria.
I hooked up with a guy in a youth hostel.
(14:13):
, He was working on the, he was workingthe streets of, , Austria before
Christmas, selling trinkets and posters.
His name was Avi Avshalom.
He was, , a Jewish guy, Israeli guy.
With him was Dushko, a guyfrom the former Yugoslavia.
I fell in with these guysand I had a British passport.
(14:35):
So when we got arrested, Iwas released fairly , quickly.
, and there were various adventurestraveling through the night to
go to different towns and wakingup in the morning and walking
into hotels to clean your teeth,pretending that you were in there.
Then going off to spend the wholeday trying to, , sell things on
the streets for Christmas shoppingcrowds for the Christmas markets.
(14:58):
I look back and I see that wasquite a vulnerable young man,
that was, , a 17, 18 year old.
, But I never felt groomed and Inever felt taken advantage of.
I always felt as though there was , athing in the back of my head, looking
out for myself, which I see as autistic.
(15:18):
And it's something that Nicola saidwhen she was, interviewing me or
talking to me earlier about, , beingin India and being out late at
night , and getting into difficultand dangerous situations, perhaps, and
how I had dealt with them in the past.
And she was talking about thisautistic over awareness, this keenness
(15:39):
to be constantly on , your guard.
So do you think that you avoided , agrooming situation or whatever because
you were constantly on your guard?
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I sometimes see autonomous asalmost related to autistic.
So there was an autonomousthing going on in me.
(16:00):
I would never get too out of it.
I would never lose control.
, , that was debated at the time.
, I had a lot of people, friendswho were into the idea of losing
control, giving up the ego, andthat meant some extreme experiences.
(16:21):
I avoided all that.
What you were saying about, gettingarrested or getting in trouble, , at
a young age, , I think you veryquickly learn to not get caught.
It doesn't mean you give uptrying to play the system or work
out, uh, a way of getting by.
(16:43):
Because circumstances were prettycrappy, , the promise of a life
was being kind of pulled away
from you in the 80s.
We took certain jobs, you would get by,
we'd play the game.
But as you say, the guy you met wasselling trinkets in the street, that
(17:06):
sort of thing of like finding somethingto sell in order to make a living to
get by and buy things in the system.
As you get older and wiser youfind different ways of doing that.
Legit, semi legit, just enough to do it.
, so there's a balance, yeah.
(17:27):
You describe the disappointment withexperiencing travelling and how that
put you off the concept of travelling.
And you're very honest, you say, I tookall my shit with me to these places.
I took my false hopes and myfalse dreams I took my masks.
(17:53):
They were empty experiences, andI haunted myself like a ghost
in search of home comforts.
Do they have a Lidl, for instance?
That latter part, do they have aLidl, was kind of a reference to what
you had been discussing with Nicolaearlier, and what I had been discussing
(18:15):
with you about your time in India.
Sometimes, when travelling, you canfind a major city that will provide you
with a certain amount of home comforts.
a supermarket.
, Back then, what that was for me, and Iremember this vividly, was how am I going
to get by without chocolate biscuits?
(18:38):
, I'd be in the house of friends who, didn't do that thing of a cup of tea
and some chocolate biscuits, which Idid at home, my little indulgences.
, So I thought I'm going to bewith them all this time and
not have a chocolate biscuit.
And then there was things like timewould just get endless sometimes in other
(18:58):
people's company and quite intimidating.
And especially during those times withthe masks and under the influence.
That could be a bit paranoid.
So, taking all my shit to theseplaces was the fact that, , I had my
(19:20):
routine, I was kind of a homebody.
I liked my home, I liked my base.
And when I went tosomewhere else, I lost that.
You know, I lost that feelingof security sometimes.
And so I was on edge.
(19:40):
And very often I remember attimes I felt like I was acting.
So, we really are looking forthe autistic aspect of this.
That's where it's beginning to come in.
There was a certain amount ofexpediency that you wanted to be away
with your friends, and you wanted tohave a little bit of an adventure.
(20:02):
You wanted to see Amsterdam, you wanted totry some drugs out, you wanted to have a
little bit of blow, you wanted to have abit of an adventure, but in the end, you
were actually just masking and fitting in,and you would have really rather been at
home.
Yeah, because Essentially, you can seethere's something going on here before I
(20:24):
even travelled, before I even left school.
, That person was looking for a mask.
A way of getting through life, , and ata very early age met the counterculture.
I actually went looking for itbecause somehow I sniffed it out.
(20:48):
I'm questioning myself and I'm thinkingthere are definite parts that I was
doing exactly the same at exactly thesame time for exactly the same reasons.
I
mean, we call them masks now, butit was more described as a, um,
(21:10):
I see it as an escape, butan escape into here and now.
I think, to some extent, it wascreating a character for yourself.
, and you were trying to, sorry, Iwas trying to do it in a way that
had aspects that, I thought were
(21:32):
strong enough to be independent,strong enough to keep people away
from me, and strong enough to alsobe admired or accepted for something.
The romantic idea of the outsider.
(21:55):
, books like Steinbeck, where charactershad their own sense of being, and they
had various things that went with it, liketobacco pouches, or, a nice pair of boots
or symbols of, , a desirable character,, an adult you would like to be, maybe
(22:19):
rejecting all of the conformist thingsthat were offered, like dressing as
a punk instead of just being a punkor following fashions, almost an
anti fashion, but Like you're saying,was it looking for an identity?
(22:41):
No, it was looking for a mask.
It was looking for a, , a shell.
Something to protect oneselffrom, I'm guessing for me.
Possibly, I should reflecton that a bit more.
But, , yeah, there wasall these, , role models.
Because we were being givenrole models at that age anyway.
(23:04):
Just we were very, I wasvery uncomfortable with
the role models I was being
offered.
, The wandering walks that we used to doas kids, the wandering in our minds we
used to do, we're looking for something.
And, , if we were lucky, we may havefound that through the institutions and
(23:25):
the society's conditioning and schools.
You then saw these role models that seemedto be providing, , a bohemian, romantic
kind of, , experience that felt better.
, but what you find out is that's work too.
(23:48):
That implies you've got to make certaincommitments and do certain things and
follow certain guidances and rules.
And it's like after a while you think,no, honestly, I don't want that either.
I want something a bit freer.
And it's very difficultto be free, I find.
It needs a kind of disciplineand that can be a bit difficult.
(24:12):
So where this is in theautistic experience, who knows?
It certainly led to a lot of thingsthat caused what you were asking earlier
about the panic, which is a traumato a certain extent, , an acquired
stress reaction
(24:34):
to, , misalignment and the
ill fit
of one's being.
I think the paragraph that youthen wrote has all kinds of
interesting messages in it.
On the face of it, it actually soundsas though it's a romanticisation,
(24:57):
but reading it two or three times, itmakes me feel differently about it.
I'm going to read it as though it's a, asthough it's an attractive, poetic thing.
The nomad itinerant, salesman of hiswares, is in business, is industrious,
(25:20):
crafting the satisfaction of needs,the exotic, the rare, the prestige
of silk roads and trade routes,carving up the body of the planet.
God's will is that weutilize all resources.
And after the conquest, the tourists.
(25:41):
So when I read that first, I get takenaway with words like nomad and itinerant
salesman and wares and business andindustrious and silk roads and trade
routes, all , very, um, romanticized.
You're really pointing out the irony here.
(26:03):
That what appears to be romantic isactually business and industry and it's
about satisfaction of the needs, the basicneeds, the, the using of resources, and if
(26:27):
a man is on a camel taking things acrossdeserts, that's a romantic idea, but the
reality is what he's actually doing isjust moving chemicals from one place to
another or And Materials from one place toanother, and you're pointing out that all
of that was both carving up the planet,and it was utilizing the resources,
(26:56):
and it was a conquest of new lands.
It was a colonization of new lands.
It was a taking of resources, and travelhas always been associated with that,
going off to new lands and raping them.
(27:18):
And then you bring it to thepresent, right into my face, where
I am now, in Vasco da Gama, wherethe Portuguese landed in India.
Around me are Christian, , chapelsamongst the Hindu shrines and the Muslim
(27:38):
It was a conquest.
The Portuguese came here and took.
And what's left behind, the prettybuildings and the seafronts, is now
Being colonized by the tourists.
So everything in that paragraph isbringing all around to how we talk about
(28:04):
travel, but often travel is actuallyabout destroying, am I reading it right?
Yeah, very much so.
I'm glad you read it two or three timesbecause, , not a lot of people do that
when someone unknown produces writing.
, people are kinda dependent on aninstant kind of, , understanding.
(28:30):
, Okay, if you've got a reputationand people might give you time, so.
You said poetic.
Yeah, the poetic means thatyou just say something and then
eventually it reveals itself.
If you say things enough,they begin to reveal things.
And so I trust that when I'm writing.
(28:53):
, that sentence begins, the nomaditinerant, like in classic, , English
literature, practical criticism.
Who am I talking about?
Who is the nomad itinerant?
Is it me?
Well, , that whole paragraph is mereflecting on carbon footprint and
jet travel, the ability for you tobe in India, , the price paid for
(29:18):
that, going back through history.
As I will in my thinking throughwhat I know about history and the
development of that concept thatI'm kind of obsessed with just now
called making the impossible possible.
It's a very worrying concept becausewhat it creates, we have to be careful.
(29:44):
Doesn't mean we shouldn't attemptmaking the impossible possible,
but we have to take care.
So.
As you've interpreted trade comesfrom the word, well, all these words
like track and trace and trade arekind of related, carving a path,
carving a line through the labyrinth.
(30:07):
And as I'm writing that, I don't evenknow I'm making these connections.
I'm just putting one thingnext to another and seeing what
happens, which is kind of magic.
And so you end up.
Producing the phrase God's will is that weuse all resources, , it's expected of us
almost all resources, , even digital andinformation, which is eventually what it's
(30:34):
all going to be about selling information.
And the satisfaction he needs isme relating it back to myself at
that time, or even in the previousparagraph, , about a homeless, rootless
traveler romping around, , sellinga product of some sort in order to
(30:55):
get
by.
Sorry, I'll let you in.
Yeah, let's look at that.
The itinerant, like DavidBowie, fear flying, use boats
and trains to stay grounded.
Endless motion, homeless.
The homeless, rootless traveler,in one place, part of the
(31:19):
job, part of an industry.
The same industry, capitalism,that takes adaption to defy
the laws of physics and fly.
Making impossibles possiblewith all the consequences.
As using the sea had donebefore we took to the air.
(31:41):
Right.
That kind of begins with an identificationwith a, you know, a cultural figure
who in my youth was, , ever present.
, And he liked giving good interviews.
And so he was teaching in a sense,he related a lot of information.
(32:03):
Some of that information, like JackKerouac influenced me to attempt
to, try out that experience.
But in his interviews he revealedhe feared flying and so he
used a train, a Trans SiberianExpress, to get himself to Japan.
Why was he going to Japan?
(32:24):
He was in an industry of entertainment andcelebrity where he had to earn his crust.
So he was going on toursand, , things, meeting people.
fashion people.
So he used trains to do that and he usedboats to get to the USA and he never
(32:46):
came back for a number of years beforehe disappeared and the UK went punk.
, Cause he was a guiding figure, sort ofculturally at the time, in that milieu.
So,
These are all things coming fromthat early cultural influence
(33:09):
and I saw him as somebody who wasworking while he was on the road.
He eventually realised I thinkin future interviews that he
was never a home person.
He had homes, but he wasalways kind of in motion.
His songs reveal that,his writing reveals that.
(33:32):
It wasn't a game or a gimmick.
It was constant.
He was an alien.
He felt a stranger.
So, he was able to work within thatenvironment and it helped him thrive.
So, he is a characterrepresenting something there.
(33:52):
about coexisting with that industry ofcapitalism that takes human need, desire
for celebrities and ideas and teachings,and ingenuity as masks and adapting
them to become something entirely novel,, to defy the laws of physics and fly.
But there are consequencesfor that experience.
(34:15):
And I was relating itto, you know, airplanes.
I
just had a little look on the internetputting divergent with David Bowie as
a Google search and neurodivergent,
(34:35):
, because I had always considered,, no, let me reframe that.
Without exaggeration, because recentlywatching a documentary, , about Bowie,
he seemed to ring a lot of, bells withme, , with neurodivergent features, if not
(34:56):
A person that would have been diagnosed,somebody who is autism adjacent, let
me call it, , and there's people onlinesaying, no, he wasn't, , autistic in any
way, but there is lots of speculationthat he would have come under the, , the
wider umbrella, maybe ADHD or some otherlabel like that, , but if you just put
(35:19):
the word divergent with Bowie, thenthere's an awful lot about Bowie The wide
ranging art that he produced, the constantreinvention of different characters,
, the masking, the playfulness, therebuilding, , z Stardust major, , all of
(35:41):
the different characters that he produced.
, Personally, I have a strong feelingthat you would probably put Bowie
into the neurodivergent character.
He was a shy young boy.
He was very introverted.
He had a, a, a very strong inner life,and he was able to transgress, , all
(36:04):
of the social norms in a way thatpeople were unable to do in the
fifties and sixties and seventies.
So maybe there's something aboutthis, , maybe there's a link in
what you're saying, and there'sa link in why you chose Bowie.
There are a number of characters that onecould use or refer to in that context.
(36:33):
We're always careful about attaching thatkind of meaning to things, but here we
are, and we respond to what we respond to.
And in our youths, there maybe some keys there to things.
For us latchkey kids, , David Byrne isoften seen as a major influence in that
(36:56):
direction because, in a sense, he's hintedat being diagnosed with Asperger's and Any
of his lines that lodge in your head fromhis lyrics can just sum up a lot of what
you experience when you feel autistic.
And David Bowie to acertain extent was that too.
(37:18):
, for those that aren't aware, um, weren't alive in the 1980s even, , David Byrne is
part of Talking Heads, , a very seminalband, , and Gary Neumann has come out
as autistic, , with a diagnosis even.
And he
was a pilot.
(37:39):
Anyway, sorry, just drawingdaft connections which don't
really need to be made.
But
very much we grew up in a culturewhere there was a response
to individuals like that.
I can't remember
Gary Neumann's
band.
Chewbway Army.
You remember that?
Our friend's electric.
(38:01):
How old can you get?
And he was, and he was verymuch at the time accused of
being a Bowie clone, as were
many punks.
Now Ian Dury.
Ian Dury was disabled
by polio.
He had a song called SpasticusAutisticus, which, which at the time
(38:26):
was, , quite forward thinking, if yousee what I mean, quite ahead of its time.
But he was a previous generation.
He went through the art school thingof the early 60s, which was available
to a lot of divergent people.
But I've got to draw aquick connection here.
There's something I did recently.
(38:50):
,I looked up an old episode of Ripping Yarns by Michael Palin.
The second one, and it was about thisboring guy in Northern England, Yorkshire
somewhere, who was obsessed withrain, temp, rainfall, and how his life
transforms and he becomes interesting.
(39:13):
And I thought, I can't go postingthis anywhere neurodivergent,
I'll get excommunicated.
And then In response to it, I founda clip from the movie Billy Liar with
Tom Courtney playing this fantasist.
(39:33):
And it's a scene, it's a scenewhere he's about to go to London
in a train with Julie Christie.
And he deliberately missesthe train by jumping off it to
go and get a carton of milk.
And when he goes back tothe train departing, his
suitcase is on the platform.
(39:56):
And the hint is, the suggestionis, the Julie Christie character
was a fantasy in its head.
So, I just thought, wow, thesethings are just making so much
sense to me, in a strange way.
I'm going to leave the listenerto puzzle that one out.
(40:18):
We talked a little bit about travel,and we talked a lot about autism.
Thank you very much for joiningme today there, Raymond.
No problem, thanks.
That's the end of this episodeof Autistic Travelling.
If there's anything here that's inspiredyou, and you want to find a way of
(40:43):
travelling that's guided by other people,made accessible for you, I suggest you
speak to Alex at Autism Adventures Abroad.
Alex, where do they contact you?
Yeah, so you can find meat autismadventuresabroad.
com.
Also find me on Facebook and Instagramunder Autism Adventures Abroad.
(41:05):
If you want more information, grouptrips, you can go to DivergentAdventures.
com.
Autistic Radio is about us,it's for us, and it's from us.
Autistic Radio is about you, it'sfor you, and it can be from you.
(41:29):
We have, every single Sunday, Drop in.
4 4 4 p. m. every Sunday.
That's not live.
That's us getting together.
Us talking.
Community.
Every Sunday, Harry leads a 5 55 p. m. A discussion around the
(41:52):
Facebook page that he creates.
Involve yourself by suggestingwhat we should talk about next.
Share it with Harry.
And then, the bigger picture.
Advocate.
Use us.
(42:13):
Speak to the world.
Your project.
Your idea.
Your enthusiasm.
We have a whole range of differentprograms that will fit what you want.
As far as listening goes, there'ssome challenging stuff out there.
Because amongst the identity, theentertainment, and the community,
(42:39):
we also make serious programs withAutism professionals, challenging
their ideas and bringing whatyou say in other spaces to them.
A lot of those are difficult listens,but it's a holistic gathering.
(43:00):
It comes all together.
Autistic radio is very varied.
We need a favour.
To encourage us, we need you to share us.
When you share us, yougive autistic people power.
When you share us, you makeus impossible to ignore.
(43:24):
Autism When you repost on LinkedInand Facebook and anywhere else,
you're advocating for everybodyin the autistic community.
So pick the things that you'rehappy with and get them out there.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
(43:45):
Thank you, from all of us.
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