May 28, 2025 • 36 mins
Sex Love Autism
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA
Behaviour Analyst and Sex Educator
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA
Empowered: A Center for Sexuality LLC Licensed [Sexual] Behavior Analyst | Certified Sexuality Counselor | LGBTQIA+ Family Systems Specialist 314-932-1105 (office) www.empoweredcenter.com www.facebook.com/empoweredcenterstl
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AutisticRadio.com (00:00):
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
(00:07):
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:19):
Well, well, well.
Autistic radio is reallypushing the boat out today.
Let's talk about sex, baby.
It's not something we've crossedinto before, and I don't know
what this conversation is about.
I know it's autism, love, and sex,and I know that my two guests here,
(00:43):
Georgia and Nicholas are professionals,and they will explain why they're
professionals and what that's about.
So, let's just get straightinto it and find out what the
conversation is about today.
Hello, Georgia.
Hello, Nicholas.
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (01:01):
Hello.
Hi.
Nice to be with you.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (01:04):
Hello there.
Now, it's a pleasure.
Hi.
Hi.
Wonderful.
You had an idea framing whatyou wanted to say, Nicholas.
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: A very general. (01:11):
undefined
Overview the idea of addressinglove, sex, and autism
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (01:16):
okay, so why don't we start with what
you do in your normal life?
What, what does your qualificationmean for you in relationship to
autistic people and their sex lives?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Okay I am a certified sexuality counselor (01:31):
undefined
in addition to being an internationalbehavior analyst and board certified
behavior analyst and I'm also anautistic survivor of reparative therapy.
And so for me these credentials haveallowed me to put together a very strong
(01:56):
scientific and empirically backed methodby which I can utilize more self led
self determined, beneficent treatments.
Where clients can choose how theycan move forward in addressing
what they would consider healthysexuality and healthy relationships.
(02:18):
I do utilize different methods,particularly acceptance and commitment.
Therapy or training.
Some people call it act, act training.
I utilize that a lot to helpclients align their behavior with
their values, whatever those are.
And then we start to look at how theywould want to behave in relationships.
(02:39):
What they would want their partners todo in relationships and, and how they
might go about finding and, and developingrelationships and partnership, as well
as also addressing sensory concernswhen it comes to different sexual acts
and helping clients sometimes redefinewhat sex might be so that they can have.
(03:02):
what they would consider pleasurableintimate experiences with other people
that might not look like traditionalpenetrative intercourse so that it meets
them where they are and so that theyare able to reframe sex to be able to
be met where they are, wherever that is.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:26):
We're trying to redefine sex for autistic people that
deals with the autistic sensibilities.
A lot to do with how we process touchdifferently, how we deal with our
environment differently, and how oursenses can either be heightened or blunt.
(03:52):
? Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: That is definitely one major
area of practice that I do, and Iutilize a process called Sensate
Focus in addition to Acceptance andCommitment Therapy when we're doing
that particular set of processes.
I do work in group homes with peoplewho are oftentimes with dual diagnosis.
(04:12):
Helping access their human rightswithin those systems to touch
their own bodies, to learn abouthuman bodies and potentially also
to access sex and relationships
my experience of sex is what I've created with my
partner over the last 40 or whateveryears It's difficult for me to,
(04:38):
to see what the problem is here.
It's difficult for me to accessthe concept of there being a
difficulty with sex and autism.
, what's, what's the issue?
What's the problem?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: I wouldn't say that there's a (04:52):
undefined
problem that's specific to autistics.
I'm autistic and I, I absolutely.
have no qualms with sex myself.
What I am noting is that acrossneurotypes we have what are
called sexual dysfunctions.
, almost all of them come down toanxiety and two sensory experiences.
(05:17):
When we look at autism we oftentimesdo have heightened anxiety surrounding
sensory experiences, way thatwe process can be different.
we look what's going on with clientswho are autistic checking in and making
sure that we're not maybe avoiding sex.
It's not like I'm treatingeverybody because they're autistic.
(05:38):
I'm treating them because they're comingto me and saying, I'm not having enough
sex or I'm not having good enough sex.
Or I.
Can't seem to get it up with a partner.
I can only get it up for porn.
It's a lot of the, the commondysfunctions, but making sure that
I'm catering to the specific andindividual expressed autistic experience
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (06:02):
okay, I think I'm getting closer to understanding now.
You're an expert in sex,
You're autistic, Your lived experienceis something that helps you to access
other people and, and they trustyou in a way that they might not,
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: yes, I hope to continue to earn the (06:19):
undefined
community's trust and I hope to continueto provide awesome treatments for people.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (06:29):
So Georgia, I'm, I'm understanding
where Nicholas is coming from here.
You're in a different position.
You're, you're coming froma different angle or you're
a different stage of things.
Yeah.
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (06:45):
I'm an accredited behavior analyst and I have, I have
supported young people and adults,the autistic young people and autistic
adults, and I became a sex educator.
And now I am becoming a sexualizedbehavior analyst by attending trainings.
I'm definitely in a different stage.
I'm developing my competencies andunderstanding, passionate about
(07:07):
it I care about learning more and
being helpful.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:12):
What I heard from Nicholas was that he had a
specific reason why he went into this.
Is there a specific reason why youdecided to specialize in this way?
, Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (07:24):
I certainly think my experience.
Supporting young people andautistic young people realizing
how other professionals or peoplesupporting them a lot of times.
Just ignoring , that side ofthemselves and even having the
right to have a sexual desire
(07:44):
it's being able to discuss sexualizedbehavior being open and understanding
for myself and the community around me.
I care about it.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:54):
Yeah.
And it's an important subject, isn't it?
, we are autistic.
and we want to live a full life.
What are the things that, thatstop people from getting that
opportunity for a full life?
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (08:08):
I believe perceptions around what autism means the
sex conversation, , feeling uncomfortableto have those open conversations
and , being able to discuss it openly.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (08:20):
I think there's an elephant in the room here.
I think we should address it.
Here in the UK, the idea ofbehaviorism and ABA is not something
that's really well accepted.
Most people who advocate for the autisticcommunity have a real difficulty with
(08:44):
the idea that behavior analysis shouldbe reaching into their sex lives.
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Oh, yes. (08:52):
undefined
It's really, really important thatwe acknowledge that there have been
quite a few atrocities committedwithin the field of behavior analysis
towards autistic individuals.
I think it's also important to acknowledgethat there's a lot of misinformation
about ABA that is out there.
(09:14):
One thing I really want to throwout there is ABA started in the
50s and was not focused on autism.
ABA was not developed for autism.
It is not an autism treatment.
A lot of people think it was.
A lot of people think that it wasdeveloped by a guy named Lavasse.
And Lavasse was an early behavioranalyst, but he was not one of the first.
(09:38):
And he did not develop the field.
He did do a project called theFeminine Boy Project in the 70s, and
his subject, Andrew Kirk Murphy didgrow up and end up committing suicide.
So it was, it's, it's a very,very dark history there.
Lavoss then also moved forward anddeveloped the biggest studies that had
(10:04):
been done in ABA, the biggest ones.
And those were focused on autism.
Those are the ones that insuranceended up utilizing to justify
covering ABA for autistic children.
I did not get into ABA towork specifically with autism.
I got into ABA because I wanted a wayof knowing if my therapy was working.
(10:29):
And ABA looks at tangible componentsof the, of the therapeutic treatment.
The other thing really importantto acknowledge is that even when
Lavoss Rekkers and a few otherpeople who historically we're
engaging in in activities thatwe could call conversion therapy.
At that time, there was no behavioranalyst certification body.
(10:52):
There was no behavior analyst ethics code.
Those things came later becausethe field had not yet developed.
And so, at that point in time,those were actually being done
under clinical psychology licenses.
And those individuals were clinicalpsychologists who were stating that
they were behavior analysts becauseThat was the framework they were trying
(11:16):
to utilize, but they were bound by theAPA code of ethics, not a BACB code of
ethics, because there was no BACB yet.
And this is not an excuse for themthey still could have seen that
what they were doing was wrong.
But around the time that they weredeveloping conversion therapy In the
kind of overlap of clinical psychologyand behavior analysis, homosexuality was
(11:40):
still considered a disorder and until1978, late 1978 that homosexuality
was no longer considered a disorderand not something to be shaped away.
They also had in their ethics codethat you had a duty to help your
client get by in main society.
(12:00):
And so all of that combined, we canlook now and say that was glaringly wrong.
in those contexts and in that time,they were in very good company.
So I just really want to bring allof that up because again, I hear a
lot of ABA is conversion therapy andI would never have gotten involved
(12:22):
in ABA if it was conversion therapy.
Can ABA be utilized in those ways?
Yes, so can clinical psychology, you canuse cognitive behavior therapy or other
methods to engage in conversion therapy.
It's not that ABA wasdeveloped to treat autism.
(12:43):
It was not developed as an autismtherapy, and it was definitely
not developed as a conversiontherapy, but there were elements and
studies that did have those things.
I want to highlight that around thesame times that those were happening,
there were other people that wereteaching children safety skills in
daycare centers and teaching womenhow to recognize when their partners
(13:06):
were abusive and how to approachabusive partners and get to safety.
They were teaching gay men whoare at risk of HIV how to be
safer in their sexual practices.
And, and a lot of really progressive,really cool things were happening
at the same time as thoseregressive and oppressive things.
So I just want to throw that out therebecause I feel that a lot of the.
(13:33):
Landscape online indicatesonly , a portion of what ABA is and
amplifies that to be its totality.
There are behavior analysts all overthe world who do not work with autism,
who have never learned anything withautism and have no interest in autism
because that's not what ABA is.
ABA does not equal autism therapy.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (13:56):
Nicholas,
you're absolutely welcome here toexpress what you feel, and my job
here is to edit what you feel sothat people can access your thought.
(14:20):
They might not agree when theylisten to you, but they at least need
to know where you're coming from.
So I want you to relax with us here.
You're an autistic guy andI heard some passion there.
(14:43):
I heard some resentment there thatyou're being treated badly and that
people are saying things about youthat you don't deserve to to deal with.
Have I expressed that correctly for you?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Yes very good reading (14:58):
undefined
of the undertone there.
I have run into members of theautistic community telling me that,
that I, I'm a conversion therapist.
I've had people tell me that I amyou know, a traitor to my own kind.
And then I've also had, interestinglyenough this idea that ABA is autism
(15:22):
therapy has somehow also permeateda portion of the ABA field.
And so I've even had some behavioranalysts tell me that what I'm
doing is out of scope becauseI work with all populations.
I work with neurotypical persons.
I work with people with cerebral palsydown syndrome a myriad of different
concerns and it's kind of crazy being ina position where there are people in your
(15:47):
field telling you that what you're doing.
is not ABA and then you've got peoplein the community telling you that
what you're doing is not ABA, butyou yourself are an ABA instructor.
I run an internationalABA training program.
And so it's, it's a very weird place tobe in emotionally on a day to day basis.
(16:12):
It can be kind of draining.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:15):
Let's take a few moments to just be silent, take a few deep
breaths, and just relax into this, yeah?
Hello again, and welcometo Autistic Radio.
I'm pleased here to have somebodywho is part of our community
(16:39):
expressing how it feels.
How it feels to be putbetween two opposing forces.
Please.
What I'm hearing from Nicholas isan unfair situation that he, in his
(17:01):
professional life, is dealing with,and just in the first parts of our
conversation today, it spilled out of him.
But there are things thatwe do have to deal with.
ABA has a long history of not justquestionable practice, but it has been
(17:26):
used to abuse people and it's been usedto abuse some of the autistic population.
I've been speaking to the behavioristcommunity over a period of over a year
now and I haven't found any practitionerhere in the UK that has not put that
(17:47):
front and center of what they've decidedto say to us here at Autistic Radio.
So.
Let's be kind to each other now andlet's find out some of the motivations
for an autistic man to decide to usethe science of behaviourism, the young
(18:14):
science of behaviourism, the developingscience of behaviourism, the science
of behaviourism that in the future alot of it will have to be revised in
his practice to help Autistic people.
Let's give him the space to speak.
(18:37):
Is that what you need today, Nicholas?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: The space to speak? (18:39):
undefined
I'm a very passionate speaker in general.
. I just always want to make sure thatwhen we have a discussion about ABA,
that people are aware of how, how muchbigger the field is than what it gets
reduced to during many of those talks.
(19:03):
What is really important in acknowledgingis that there is still ongoing harm that
is occurring within the ABA community.
And not just the ABA community.
It's happening in thepsychology community.
It's happening in social work.
It's happening in a lot of communitieswhere people are, through their various
(19:27):
modalities, encouraging masking.
I think what really is is a keycomponent in ABA for autistic.
Children, that is highly problematicis the really, really, really high
levels of hours and stepping in andusing behaviorism to nanny or control
(19:48):
autistic children for their parents.
That is so not what I door how I got involved.
And it's not, it's notwhat ABA needs to be.
I found ABA looking.
For something.
If we worked with a client, we would begiving them specific frameworks instead of
(20:14):
just exploring where we would be helpingthem move forward and catering to their
strengths and ABA has those potentials.
It can be utilized to encourage maskingand to encourage compliance and as a
sexuality professional, those 2 thingsare so against what I would ever want
(20:37):
anybody to experience there is amovement within the field of ABA to
recognize what's been done to the autisticcommunity and to the queer community
through behavior analytic methods.
And I'm, I'm pretty proud and I'm also, Iknow Georgia and I'm proud of Georgia as
well for being a part of that movement andfor trying to create change from within.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (21:02):
Okay.
So you guys are at a tough place.
You know, you're trying to pioneer.
From inside a very mixed profession,at the same time, you have people from
our community trying to bring you down.
(21:23):
That, that, that's atough thing to take on.
How do you deal with that?
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (21:29):
For me, it's about having those conversations
personally, I've always dreamt to be ableto support and, understand supporting
in a way that it makes sense to them.
But it hasn't always been easy , I'min a very different stage, but still I
can feel the, the torn between tryingto explain and understand where people
(21:51):
are coming from, but also develop.
develop as a professional andbeing able to, to make the change,
especially with professionals.
I find sometimes ABA is quite difficultconversation, but I'm just trying to
understand , how to go about it in waysthat is meaningful, there is training
(22:11):
out there at the moment that if youwould like to develop the skills and even
to be able to have this conversation,you really have to have a lot of.
background knowledge that Nicholaswas able to discuss and explain
I'm certainly trying to learn formyself , and develop the understanding
of, yes, actually, that has happened.
And I feel that there should be spaceand to explore where where things haven't
(22:36):
gone the right way and acknowledgethat and and take that knowledge and
communicate with other people or you'retrying to be a practitioner on a day
to day basis and just remember thatwhen you interact with with clients
or actually having this conversation.
So yeah.
That's on my side.
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: For me, it's a lot of relishing in (22:55):
undefined
any positive moments or successesthat my clients bring back to me.
For instance, I worked with a couplewhere one partner was autistic,
the other partner was neurotypical.
And they had been seeing asex therapist for three years.
(23:18):
weekly sessions, private paythat gets very expensive.
And they came to see me becausethere was no success with
the standard sex therapist.
And she knew of me.
So she referred over to me.
We did six sessions total and wehit every goal that that couple had.
(23:38):
Because we started by breaking down whathis experiences were, and then really
looking at what people have expressedtheir experiences are as autistic persons.
And there were elements of how hewas approaching sex that were very
common to autistic experiences,and no one had been able to really
(24:03):
acknowledge that in their therapy.
Because
Traditional sex therapists, very fewof them are adequately trained to work
with autistic persons or people withintellectual or dual disability diagnoses.
We did sensate focus, but we,we shifted the treatment over to
(24:24):
accommodate for his sensory elements.
And also we worked with him on recognizingthat anxiety, excitement and arousal, all
3 of those produce the same sensations.
So when you're feeling them torecognize the context and to determine.
(24:44):
Is this a feeling I'mokay with in this moment?
Arousal during sex is probably somethingyou would want to learn to be okay with
if you are wanting to have ongoing andpotentially intense sexual experiences.
And so in working with that it took sixsessions and they met all of their goals.
(25:05):
And those types of thingsreally fuel my fire because I
didn't have to control anybody.
There was no, no manipulatinganybody, anything that people might
think ABA is we just really got downinto the nitty gritty of like, what
are the stimuli that are present?
(25:25):
In the environment, when you go toengage in this and how can we approach
those stimuli differently so that youcan have outcomes that you will enjoy
based on what you've expressed you enjoyand what you expressed you're seeking.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:42):
You have all kinds of knowledge and technique
from psychology and psychiatry.
How are you certain that it's thebehaviorist part of it that is
bringing form those things that you'reproud of in helping that couple?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Every element of their (26:03):
undefined
treatment was behavioral.
We did not go into his mind.
We did not go into her mind.
We did not attempt anysort of psychotherapy.
There was some education . Educationcan fall under behavioral processes.
There was education and then therewere shaping exercises where the couple
(26:25):
went home and through sensate focus,which is a behavioral technology.
They would go home and on their ownseparate from me They created a new
baseline of what sex could look like,and what sex could be and through
a set of prompts that I would givethem each week they would go make
their own sense of the prompts andfind their own kind of new way.
(26:47):
to make the most of whateverthat experience brought.
And so over that period of time theywere able to find the fun in sex.
That really is one of the biggestparts of my treatment is helping people
find the fun in sex because sex isoftentimes so anxiety inducing that
(27:07):
leads to a lot of the dysfunctionsthat people might come to see me for.
I guess something that I will throwout there is that it's not a one
size fits all approach and justlike any other treatment can't
guarantee it will work for somebody.
I had a client one time whosesensory concerns were really, really
(27:30):
intense she was autistic, her partnerneurotypical I do work with a lot of
mixed couples she could not let herpartner, , hug her unless it was a very
specific context and a very specifickind of hug that she would initiate.
She did not like any other types ofphysical contact and so in working with
(27:52):
them we worked for quite a while onpotentially, Finding value in different
types of touch, but at the first signof any aversion obviously we would stop.
We're not going to try and makeyou like something or desensitize
you or these other creepy treatmentsthat I'm not going to engage in.
Over time that individual I recognized.
(28:15):
Touch might not be the bestavenue we started looking at
what can be done outside of this.
And 1 of their fade out recommendations.
I have to accept private pay for a lotof my clients, I'm not going to work
with somebody if I'm ineffective,that's not fair to them their wallet.
(28:36):
I was recognizing my own inefficacy Iwas not going to be able , to necessarily
get them to where they wanted to beI made referral out For occupational
therapy, and then also have them lookat Tantra and the notion of possibly
getting away from touch as their sourceof sexual intimacy and connection,
(28:58):
moving to Tantra so that it was morebeing together and sharing energy.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (29:04):
You know, I find all this pretty strange.
I think sex has been one of my
passions, which is the appropriateway of having it, you know, passions,
passionate sex, you know, insteadof saying set a special interest,
but it's certainly something thathas been the absolute glue to my
(29:27):
relationship without that intimate touch.
And without that, physicaldemonstration , of the love.
I think we wouldn't have been as bonded.
As close and intimacy.
(29:47):
And it always felt to us as autisticpeople, that the reason we were so
good at sex and the reason we wereso good at reading with each other
and it being part of everything forus was because we were autistic.
And when we heard of other.
relationships that were going wrong and
(30:13):
people who didn't have thatconstancy of their, of their sex
in their, in their relationships.
It, it looked as though they,they just were missing out hugely.
And those people generallywere neurotypical.
I don't, Really get where the dysfunctionlies in, in autism, because I've
(30:36):
always associated autistic people withbeing able to experience things in
such extreme and deep and beautifuland sensual and heightened ways.
I've always assumed that masturbation,sexual touch, sexual touch Interest
(30:59):
in pornography, interest in art,interest in everything around, because
of our sensualities, I've alwaysassumed that, that we're just better
at framing and dealing with it.
Isn't that the case?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: If I may, I think that there are autistic (31:15):
undefined
people who absolutely, that is the case.
I, myself, I feel that in sexualpartnered experiences, I We are getting
to the raw, the real, the nitty gritty.
This is real human passion.
This is us connectingwithout any pretense.
(31:37):
And I, I love it.
That's a big part of why I wantedto get into sexuality services I
wanted to make sure that other peoplecould access and have pleasurable
experiences and human connection.
And I've met other autistic peoplewho've Who one, one describes
herself as hypersexual becauseshe looks at people, she's thinking
(31:59):
about, how they might be as a sexualpartner , and how they, might connect
. It's a very broad spectrum of individuals.
I've worked with autistic individuals who,because of the lack of sex ed and the lack
of being treated like adults didn't evenknow what sex was or, or what solo sex or
(32:19):
masturbation was and had never tried it.
There are those clients where I'mactually teaching them about that
to go and try different ways andfigure out what works for them.
It's a huge, huge spectrum.
. I don't work specifically withautism, but I've been overlapped
with the autism community andmy services now for 12 years.
And I have seen hundreds of clients.
(32:42):
. Almost always there is a desirefor connection in, in the autistic
individuals that I've worked with.
And it, it's something thatI'm really grateful to be
able to help with where I can.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (32:57):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, in autistic radio land this is
too big a subject for us at the moment.
We're going to cut this conversationinto a very short introduction because
we need to only put out the bitsthat are accessible and make sense.
(33:24):
There is always the possibility thatGeorgia and, and Nicholas will return to
us as autistic people negotiating a toughspace professionally, but also once they
(33:46):
get to trust the autistic radio modeland we can make them more comfortable,
I'm sure that we will have a, a journeywith them that will be helpful to us all.
If we say this is a short introduction toyou guys, are you willing to come back and
(34:15):
relax with us and talk to us a bit more?
I would certainly love to come back.
Yes, of course.
Autistic radio is personal and it'sinformal, which means that those
taking part speak only for themselves.
(34:35):
If they mention an organizationthat they work for or they're a
member of, they're not speakingon behalf of that organization.
We shouldn't take anyimplication from that.
It's also the case that people'sopinions change over time.
So while this recording Is there forever?
(34:58):
People change.
We speak our words, we listen, we speak our words, we listen.
(00:07):
We speak our words.
We listen.
We speak our words.
We listen.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (00:19):
Well, well, well.
Autistic radio is reallypushing the boat out today.
Let's talk about sex, baby.
It's not something we've crossedinto before, and I don't know
what this conversation is about.
I know it's autism, love, and sex,and I know that my two guests here,
(00:43):
Georgia and Nicholas are professionals,and they will explain why they're
professionals and what that's about.
So, let's just get straightinto it and find out what the
conversation is about today.
Hello, Georgia.
Hello, Nicholas.
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (01:01):
Hello.
Hi.
Nice to be with you.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (01:04):
Hello there.
Now, it's a pleasure.
Hi.
Hi.
Wonderful.
You had an idea framing whatyou wanted to say, Nicholas.
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: A very general. (01:11):
undefined
Overview the idea of addressinglove, sex, and autism
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (01:16):
okay, so why don't we start with what
you do in your normal life?
What, what does your qualificationmean for you in relationship to
autistic people and their sex lives?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Okay I am a certified sexuality counselor (01:31):
undefined
in addition to being an internationalbehavior analyst and board certified
behavior analyst and I'm also anautistic survivor of reparative therapy.
And so for me these credentials haveallowed me to put together a very strong
(01:56):
scientific and empirically backed methodby which I can utilize more self led
self determined, beneficent treatments.
Where clients can choose how theycan move forward in addressing
what they would consider healthysexuality and healthy relationships.
(02:18):
I do utilize different methods,particularly acceptance and commitment.
Therapy or training.
Some people call it act, act training.
I utilize that a lot to helpclients align their behavior with
their values, whatever those are.
And then we start to look at how theywould want to behave in relationships.
(02:39):
What they would want their partners todo in relationships and, and how they
might go about finding and, and developingrelationships and partnership, as well
as also addressing sensory concernswhen it comes to different sexual acts
and helping clients sometimes redefinewhat sex might be so that they can have.
(03:02):
what they would consider pleasurableintimate experiences with other people
that might not look like traditionalpenetrative intercourse so that it meets
them where they are and so that theyare able to reframe sex to be able to
be met where they are, wherever that is.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (03:26):
We're trying to redefine sex for autistic people that
deals with the autistic sensibilities.
A lot to do with how we process touchdifferently, how we deal with our
environment differently, and how oursenses can either be heightened or blunt.
(03:52):
? Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: That is definitely one major
area of practice that I do, and Iutilize a process called Sensate
Focus in addition to Acceptance andCommitment Therapy when we're doing
that particular set of processes.
I do work in group homes with peoplewho are oftentimes with dual diagnosis.
(04:12):
Helping access their human rightswithin those systems to touch
their own bodies, to learn abouthuman bodies and potentially also
to access sex and relationships
my experience of sex is what I've created with my
partner over the last 40 or whateveryears It's difficult for me to,
(04:38):
to see what the problem is here.
It's difficult for me to accessthe concept of there being a
difficulty with sex and autism.
, what's, what's the issue?
What's the problem?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: I wouldn't say that there's a (04:52):
undefined
problem that's specific to autistics.
I'm autistic and I, I absolutely.
have no qualms with sex myself.
What I am noting is that acrossneurotypes we have what are
called sexual dysfunctions.
, almost all of them come down toanxiety and two sensory experiences.
(05:17):
When we look at autism we oftentimesdo have heightened anxiety surrounding
sensory experiences, way thatwe process can be different.
we look what's going on with clientswho are autistic checking in and making
sure that we're not maybe avoiding sex.
It's not like I'm treatingeverybody because they're autistic.
(05:38):
I'm treating them because they're comingto me and saying, I'm not having enough
sex or I'm not having good enough sex.
Or I.
Can't seem to get it up with a partner.
I can only get it up for porn.
It's a lot of the, the commondysfunctions, but making sure that
I'm catering to the specific andindividual expressed autistic experience
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (06:02):
okay, I think I'm getting closer to understanding now.
You're an expert in sex,
You're autistic, Your lived experienceis something that helps you to access
other people and, and they trustyou in a way that they might not,
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: yes, I hope to continue to earn the (06:19):
undefined
community's trust and I hope to continueto provide awesome treatments for people.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (06:29):
So Georgia, I'm, I'm understanding
where Nicholas is coming from here.
You're in a different position.
You're, you're coming froma different angle or you're
a different stage of things.
Yeah.
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (06:45):
I'm an accredited behavior analyst and I have, I have
supported young people and adults,the autistic young people and autistic
adults, and I became a sex educator.
And now I am becoming a sexualizedbehavior analyst by attending trainings.
I'm definitely in a different stage.
I'm developing my competencies andunderstanding, passionate about
(07:07):
it I care about learning more and
being helpful.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:12):
What I heard from Nicholas was that he had a
specific reason why he went into this.
Is there a specific reason why youdecided to specialize in this way?
, Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (07:24):
I certainly think my experience.
Supporting young people andautistic young people realizing
how other professionals or peoplesupporting them a lot of times.
Just ignoring , that side ofthemselves and even having the
right to have a sexual desire
(07:44):
it's being able to discuss sexualizedbehavior being open and understanding
for myself and the community around me.
I care about it.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (07:54):
Yeah.
And it's an important subject, isn't it?
, we are autistic.
and we want to live a full life.
What are the things that, thatstop people from getting that
opportunity for a full life?
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (08:08):
I believe perceptions around what autism means the
sex conversation, , feeling uncomfortableto have those open conversations
and , being able to discuss it openly.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (08:20):
I think there's an elephant in the room here.
I think we should address it.
Here in the UK, the idea ofbehaviorism and ABA is not something
that's really well accepted.
Most people who advocate for the autisticcommunity have a real difficulty with
(08:44):
the idea that behavior analysis shouldbe reaching into their sex lives.
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Oh, yes. (08:52):
undefined
It's really, really important thatwe acknowledge that there have been
quite a few atrocities committedwithin the field of behavior analysis
towards autistic individuals.
I think it's also important to acknowledgethat there's a lot of misinformation
about ABA that is out there.
(09:14):
One thing I really want to throwout there is ABA started in the
50s and was not focused on autism.
ABA was not developed for autism.
It is not an autism treatment.
A lot of people think it was.
A lot of people think that it wasdeveloped by a guy named Lavasse.
And Lavasse was an early behavioranalyst, but he was not one of the first.
(09:38):
And he did not develop the field.
He did do a project called theFeminine Boy Project in the 70s, and
his subject, Andrew Kirk Murphy didgrow up and end up committing suicide.
So it was, it's, it's a very,very dark history there.
Lavoss then also moved forward anddeveloped the biggest studies that had
(10:04):
been done in ABA, the biggest ones.
And those were focused on autism.
Those are the ones that insuranceended up utilizing to justify
covering ABA for autistic children.
I did not get into ABA towork specifically with autism.
I got into ABA because I wanted a wayof knowing if my therapy was working.
(10:29):
And ABA looks at tangible componentsof the, of the therapeutic treatment.
The other thing really importantto acknowledge is that even when
Lavoss Rekkers and a few otherpeople who historically we're
engaging in in activities thatwe could call conversion therapy.
At that time, there was no behavioranalyst certification body.
(10:52):
There was no behavior analyst ethics code.
Those things came later becausethe field had not yet developed.
And so, at that point in time,those were actually being done
under clinical psychology licenses.
And those individuals were clinicalpsychologists who were stating that
they were behavior analysts becauseThat was the framework they were trying
(11:16):
to utilize, but they were bound by theAPA code of ethics, not a BACB code of
ethics, because there was no BACB yet.
And this is not an excuse for themthey still could have seen that
what they were doing was wrong.
But around the time that they weredeveloping conversion therapy In the
kind of overlap of clinical psychologyand behavior analysis, homosexuality was
(11:40):
still considered a disorder and until1978, late 1978 that homosexuality
was no longer considered a disorderand not something to be shaped away.
They also had in their ethics codethat you had a duty to help your
client get by in main society.
(12:00):
And so all of that combined, we canlook now and say that was glaringly wrong.
in those contexts and in that time,they were in very good company.
So I just really want to bring allof that up because again, I hear a
lot of ABA is conversion therapy andI would never have gotten involved
(12:22):
in ABA if it was conversion therapy.
Can ABA be utilized in those ways?
Yes, so can clinical psychology, you canuse cognitive behavior therapy or other
methods to engage in conversion therapy.
It's not that ABA wasdeveloped to treat autism.
(12:43):
It was not developed as an autismtherapy, and it was definitely
not developed as a conversiontherapy, but there were elements and
studies that did have those things.
I want to highlight that around thesame times that those were happening,
there were other people that wereteaching children safety skills in
daycare centers and teaching womenhow to recognize when their partners
(13:06):
were abusive and how to approachabusive partners and get to safety.
They were teaching gay men whoare at risk of HIV how to be
safer in their sexual practices.
And, and a lot of really progressive,really cool things were happening
at the same time as thoseregressive and oppressive things.
So I just want to throw that out therebecause I feel that a lot of the.
(13:33):
Landscape online indicatesonly , a portion of what ABA is and
amplifies that to be its totality.
There are behavior analysts all overthe world who do not work with autism,
who have never learned anything withautism and have no interest in autism
because that's not what ABA is.
ABA does not equal autism therapy.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (13:56):
Nicholas,
you're absolutely welcome here toexpress what you feel, and my job
here is to edit what you feel sothat people can access your thought.
(14:20):
They might not agree when theylisten to you, but they at least need
to know where you're coming from.
So I want you to relax with us here.
You're an autistic guy andI heard some passion there.
(14:43):
I heard some resentment there thatyou're being treated badly and that
people are saying things about youthat you don't deserve to to deal with.
Have I expressed that correctly for you?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Yes very good reading (14:58):
undefined
of the undertone there.
I have run into members of theautistic community telling me that,
that I, I'm a conversion therapist.
I've had people tell me that I amyou know, a traitor to my own kind.
And then I've also had, interestinglyenough this idea that ABA is autism
(15:22):
therapy has somehow also permeateda portion of the ABA field.
And so I've even had some behavioranalysts tell me that what I'm
doing is out of scope becauseI work with all populations.
I work with neurotypical persons.
I work with people with cerebral palsydown syndrome a myriad of different
concerns and it's kind of crazy being ina position where there are people in your
(15:47):
field telling you that what you're doing.
is not ABA and then you've got peoplein the community telling you that
what you're doing is not ABA, butyou yourself are an ABA instructor.
I run an internationalABA training program.
And so it's, it's a very weird place tobe in emotionally on a day to day basis.
(16:12):
It can be kind of draining.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (16:15):
Let's take a few moments to just be silent, take a few deep
breaths, and just relax into this, yeah?
Hello again, and welcometo Autistic Radio.
I'm pleased here to have somebodywho is part of our community
(16:39):
expressing how it feels.
How it feels to be putbetween two opposing forces.
Please.
What I'm hearing from Nicholas isan unfair situation that he, in his
(17:01):
professional life, is dealing with,and just in the first parts of our
conversation today, it spilled out of him.
But there are things thatwe do have to deal with.
ABA has a long history of not justquestionable practice, but it has been
(17:26):
used to abuse people and it's been usedto abuse some of the autistic population.
I've been speaking to the behavioristcommunity over a period of over a year
now and I haven't found any practitionerhere in the UK that has not put that
(17:47):
front and center of what they've decidedto say to us here at Autistic Radio.
So.
Let's be kind to each other now andlet's find out some of the motivations
for an autistic man to decide to usethe science of behaviourism, the young
(18:14):
science of behaviourism, the developingscience of behaviourism, the science
of behaviourism that in the future alot of it will have to be revised in
his practice to help Autistic people.
Let's give him the space to speak.
(18:37):
Is that what you need today, Nicholas?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: The space to speak? (18:39):
undefined
I'm a very passionate speaker in general.
. I just always want to make sure thatwhen we have a discussion about ABA,
that people are aware of how, how muchbigger the field is than what it gets
reduced to during many of those talks.
(19:03):
What is really important in acknowledgingis that there is still ongoing harm that
is occurring within the ABA community.
And not just the ABA community.
It's happening in thepsychology community.
It's happening in social work.
It's happening in a lot of communitieswhere people are, through their various
(19:27):
modalities, encouraging masking.
I think what really is is a keycomponent in ABA for autistic.
Children, that is highly problematicis the really, really, really high
levels of hours and stepping in andusing behaviorism to nanny or control
(19:48):
autistic children for their parents.
That is so not what I door how I got involved.
And it's not, it's notwhat ABA needs to be.
I found ABA looking.
For something.
If we worked with a client, we would begiving them specific frameworks instead of
(20:14):
just exploring where we would be helpingthem move forward and catering to their
strengths and ABA has those potentials.
It can be utilized to encourage maskingand to encourage compliance and as a
sexuality professional, those 2 thingsare so against what I would ever want
(20:37):
anybody to experience there is amovement within the field of ABA to
recognize what's been done to the autisticcommunity and to the queer community
through behavior analytic methods.
And I'm, I'm pretty proud and I'm also, Iknow Georgia and I'm proud of Georgia as
well for being a part of that movement andfor trying to create change from within.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (21:02):
Okay.
So you guys are at a tough place.
You know, you're trying to pioneer.
From inside a very mixed profession,at the same time, you have people from
our community trying to bring you down.
(21:23):
That, that, that's atough thing to take on.
How do you deal with that?
Georgia-Tsikoura-BCBA (21:29):
For me, it's about having those conversations
personally, I've always dreamt to be ableto support and, understand supporting
in a way that it makes sense to them.
But it hasn't always been easy , I'min a very different stage, but still I
can feel the, the torn between tryingto explain and understand where people
(21:51):
are coming from, but also develop.
develop as a professional andbeing able to, to make the change,
especially with professionals.
I find sometimes ABA is quite difficultconversation, but I'm just trying to
understand , how to go about it in waysthat is meaningful, there is training
(22:11):
out there at the moment that if youwould like to develop the skills and even
to be able to have this conversation,you really have to have a lot of.
background knowledge that Nicholaswas able to discuss and explain
I'm certainly trying to learn formyself , and develop the understanding
of, yes, actually, that has happened.
And I feel that there should be spaceand to explore where where things haven't
(22:36):
gone the right way and acknowledgethat and and take that knowledge and
communicate with other people or you'retrying to be a practitioner on a day
to day basis and just remember thatwhen you interact with with clients
or actually having this conversation.
So yeah.
That's on my side.
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: For me, it's a lot of relishing in (22:55):
undefined
any positive moments or successesthat my clients bring back to me.
For instance, I worked with a couplewhere one partner was autistic,
the other partner was neurotypical.
And they had been seeing asex therapist for three years.
(23:18):
weekly sessions, private paythat gets very expensive.
And they came to see me becausethere was no success with
the standard sex therapist.
And she knew of me.
So she referred over to me.
We did six sessions total and wehit every goal that that couple had.
(23:38):
Because we started by breaking down whathis experiences were, and then really
looking at what people have expressedtheir experiences are as autistic persons.
And there were elements of how hewas approaching sex that were very
common to autistic experiences,and no one had been able to really
(24:03):
acknowledge that in their therapy.
Because
Traditional sex therapists, very fewof them are adequately trained to work
with autistic persons or people withintellectual or dual disability diagnoses.
We did sensate focus, but we,we shifted the treatment over to
(24:24):
accommodate for his sensory elements.
And also we worked with him on recognizingthat anxiety, excitement and arousal, all
3 of those produce the same sensations.
So when you're feeling them torecognize the context and to determine.
(24:44):
Is this a feeling I'mokay with in this moment?
Arousal during sex is probably somethingyou would want to learn to be okay with
if you are wanting to have ongoing andpotentially intense sexual experiences.
And so in working with that it took sixsessions and they met all of their goals.
(25:05):
And those types of thingsreally fuel my fire because I
didn't have to control anybody.
There was no, no manipulatinganybody, anything that people might
think ABA is we just really got downinto the nitty gritty of like, what
are the stimuli that are present?
(25:25):
In the environment, when you go toengage in this and how can we approach
those stimuli differently so that youcan have outcomes that you will enjoy
based on what you've expressed you enjoyand what you expressed you're seeking.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (25:42):
You have all kinds of knowledge and technique
from psychology and psychiatry.
How are you certain that it's thebehaviorist part of it that is
bringing form those things that you'reproud of in helping that couple?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: Every element of their (26:03):
undefined
treatment was behavioral.
We did not go into his mind.
We did not go into her mind.
We did not attempt anysort of psychotherapy.
There was some education . Educationcan fall under behavioral processes.
There was education and then therewere shaping exercises where the couple
(26:25):
went home and through sensate focus,which is a behavioral technology.
They would go home and on their ownseparate from me They created a new
baseline of what sex could look like,and what sex could be and through
a set of prompts that I would givethem each week they would go make
their own sense of the prompts andfind their own kind of new way.
(26:47):
to make the most of whateverthat experience brought.
And so over that period of time theywere able to find the fun in sex.
That really is one of the biggestparts of my treatment is helping people
find the fun in sex because sex isoftentimes so anxiety inducing that
(27:07):
leads to a lot of the dysfunctionsthat people might come to see me for.
I guess something that I will throwout there is that it's not a one
size fits all approach and justlike any other treatment can't
guarantee it will work for somebody.
I had a client one time whosesensory concerns were really, really
(27:30):
intense she was autistic, her partnerneurotypical I do work with a lot of
mixed couples she could not let herpartner, , hug her unless it was a very
specific context and a very specifickind of hug that she would initiate.
She did not like any other types ofphysical contact and so in working with
(27:52):
them we worked for quite a while onpotentially, Finding value in different
types of touch, but at the first signof any aversion obviously we would stop.
We're not going to try and makeyou like something or desensitize
you or these other creepy treatmentsthat I'm not going to engage in.
Over time that individual I recognized.
(28:15):
Touch might not be the bestavenue we started looking at
what can be done outside of this.
And 1 of their fade out recommendations.
I have to accept private pay for a lotof my clients, I'm not going to work
with somebody if I'm ineffective,that's not fair to them their wallet.
(28:36):
I was recognizing my own inefficacy Iwas not going to be able , to necessarily
get them to where they wanted to beI made referral out For occupational
therapy, and then also have them lookat Tantra and the notion of possibly
getting away from touch as their sourceof sexual intimacy and connection,
(28:58):
moving to Tantra so that it was morebeing together and sharing energy.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (29:04):
You know, I find all this pretty strange.
I think sex has been one of my
passions, which is the appropriateway of having it, you know, passions,
passionate sex, you know, insteadof saying set a special interest,
but it's certainly something thathas been the absolute glue to my
(29:27):
relationship without that intimate touch.
And without that, physicaldemonstration , of the love.
I think we wouldn't have been as bonded.
As close and intimacy.
(29:47):
And it always felt to us as autisticpeople, that the reason we were so
good at sex and the reason we wereso good at reading with each other
and it being part of everything forus was because we were autistic.
And when we heard of other.
relationships that were going wrong and
(30:13):
people who didn't have thatconstancy of their, of their sex
in their, in their relationships.
It, it looked as though they,they just were missing out hugely.
And those people generallywere neurotypical.
I don't, Really get where the dysfunctionlies in, in autism, because I've
(30:36):
always associated autistic people withbeing able to experience things in
such extreme and deep and beautifuland sensual and heightened ways.
I've always assumed that masturbation,sexual touch, sexual touch Interest
(30:59):
in pornography, interest in art,interest in everything around, because
of our sensualities, I've alwaysassumed that, that we're just better
at framing and dealing with it.
Isn't that the case?
Nicholas-Maio-Aether-MAMFT-MSPSY-LBA-CSC-IBA-BCBA: If I may, I think that there are autistic (31:15):
undefined
people who absolutely, that is the case.
I, myself, I feel that in sexualpartnered experiences, I We are getting
to the raw, the real, the nitty gritty.
This is real human passion.
This is us connectingwithout any pretense.
(31:37):
And I, I love it.
That's a big part of why I wantedto get into sexuality services I
wanted to make sure that other peoplecould access and have pleasurable
experiences and human connection.
And I've met other autistic peoplewho've Who one, one describes
herself as hypersexual becauseshe looks at people, she's thinking
(31:59):
about, how they might be as a sexualpartner , and how they, might connect
. It's a very broad spectrum of individuals.
I've worked with autistic individuals who,because of the lack of sex ed and the lack
of being treated like adults didn't evenknow what sex was or, or what solo sex or
(32:19):
masturbation was and had never tried it.
There are those clients where I'mactually teaching them about that
to go and try different ways andfigure out what works for them.
It's a huge, huge spectrum.
. I don't work specifically withautism, but I've been overlapped
with the autism community andmy services now for 12 years.
And I have seen hundreds of clients.
(32:42):
. Almost always there is a desirefor connection in, in the autistic
individuals that I've worked with.
And it, it's something thatI'm really grateful to be
able to help with where I can.
Jules-AutisticRadio.com (32:57):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, in autistic radio land this is
too big a subject for us at the moment.
We're going to cut this conversationinto a very short introduction because
we need to only put out the bitsthat are accessible and make sense.
(33:24):
There is always the possibility thatGeorgia and, and Nicholas will return to
us as autistic people negotiating a toughspace professionally, but also once they
(33:46):
get to trust the autistic radio modeland we can make them more comfortable,
I'm sure that we will have a, a journeywith them that will be helpful to us all.
If we say this is a short introduction toyou guys, are you willing to come back and
(34:15):
relax with us and talk to us a bit more?
I would certainly love to come back.
Yes, of course.
Autistic radio is personal and it'sinformal, which means that those
taking part speak only for themselves.
(34:35):
If they mention an organizationthat they work for or they're a
member of, they're not speakingon behalf of that organization.
We shouldn't take anyimplication from that.
It's also the case that people'sopinions change over time.
So while this recording Is there forever?
(34:58):
People change.
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