#40 Carson Taylor | From knocking on doors to doing mission trips and confessing your deepest secrets to the Pastor. A look inside 20+ years living as a Mormon - Bang Two Three Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
They needed to go preach the gospel to people in England.

(00:03):
So he would send them away on missions
and then he would marry their wives while they were gone.
Tea or coffee, which one?
Ooh, it probably ends up being tea.
I'm not much of both because being Mormon for so long,
those you can't have when you're Mormon.

(00:24):
So like, I didn't order my first coffee until I was 25.
You know, hey, that's something you should be proud of first of all.
Don't let anyone disparage you.
You know, I've been thinking about this.
Speaking of Mormon, I guess, not really.
Are we sure we came from fucking monkeys?
Like, are we sure about this?
Because first of all, they never visit us.

(00:45):
They never ever visit us.
Second of all, we don't have tales, right?
Where's the tale?
Like, where's science at on this?
Where is the scientific community?
What happened to our tale?
I think like the argument is that, oh, you know,
it's not an evolutionary, like, necessity,
but I completely disagree.
Could you imagine what you could do right now

(01:06):
if you had a tale?
- Man, I think it makes it a little more uncomfortable,
but, you know, to have all that extra use,
so like an extra appendage?
- Dude, that, what, like, okay, simple scenario,
simple scenario, I'm cooking, right?
I'm doing this thing, and the next thing
I know like the microwave goes off,

(01:27):
boop, gotta whip my tail.
Where's it at?
Where's the tale?
Right?
Going through a crowded area,
like you could like get your wallet with it,
you could hold things there,
like just set it to the side,
like, imagine you're in Disneyland,
there's so many people,
and you just boop, right there, extra hand.
You got, that's what I'm saying,
you could do all kind of stuff.
And also too, whenever it comes to,

(01:48):
listen, hey, we had COVID, okay,
nobody wanted to shake hands anymore.
We could just slap tales.
There you go.
Or would that be like, there you go,
or is that where you get into like,
you get in trouble with that?
What is the tale?
What is the tale?
Is it appropriate?
Is it inappropriate?
- That's, oh, damn.
Okay, you're asking the right questions here.
That's a good point.

(02:09):
Or because that's the other thing too,
like chimps have boobies?
We have boobies.
Look at chimped boobies, they're not blurred.
Female boobies, they're blurred, right?
Who decided this?
Who made this stuff, right?
So maybe knowing us humans,
since we like to shame people or say,

(02:30):
hey, you can't show that,
maybe you'll have like a tale braw
where the tale goes because you can't show that,
it's explicit.
- Ooh, there we go.
- That's it.
Could you imagine going up to a girl
and you're saying, hey, you're so pretty,
and she's like, how big is that tale?
Like, I only date guys with big tales.

(02:50):
(laughing)
Right, is it like, am I gonna get in trouble
for whipping my tail out in this bar?
(laughing)
I feel like that.
Ask the bartender.
Listen, Susie, listen, I'm a little bit drunk
and I have this great bar trick with my tail.

(03:10):
Do you mind if I whip it out?
And she's like, oh, I gotta talk to the owner.
Oh my God.
That, that's okay.
And also too, monkeys never visit us.
Like, think about, okay, what's something else
that came from something?
Like, aren't dolphins and seals related?
Like dolphins and orcas?
- Oh man, I am not a, I am not well versed.

(03:34):
- Maybe?
- Okay, okay, I got one.
- I mean, technically if you think of it,
like, we all came from some organism, right?
Like some amoeba or something,
that's where it all started.
- That is true and it does kind of break my entire argument,
but we're gonna act like you didn't say that.
(laughing)
Where are the fish?
Where are the fish?
Why aren't they coming out of the water to visit me?

(03:54):
- Thank you.
- Why are all that?
- Thank you for back on track.
- Why aren't they here?
- Did we come from an amoeba is the question?
That's the question.
Also, okay, you have wolves and coyotes.
Like, they kind of intermingle a little bit, I'm guessing.
Like, they live in the same forest and stuff like that.
I'm guessing whenever a coyote talks, a wolf con is like,

(04:18):
oh, I know he's talking shit or that type of stuff.
But with monkeys, we have no clue what they're saying.
- That's true.
- Yo, and I want, here's the big question.
Do they know what we're saying?
But isn't it there like that person who taught
like a gorilla sign language?
- Oh, they're so talented.

(04:41):
- Return to monkey.
Maybe that's the thing.
Maybe the gorilla was like, yeah, I already know this shit.
You're telling me, but okay.
But it's like, okay, you're kind of cool.
So I'll show you and I'll do the little sign language stuff
and all of that.
So, yo, wait, do gorillas have tails?
I don't think so.

(05:01):
- Hey, yeah, I don't think so.
Maybe like a little tiny one?
I don't know.
You know what, completely unrelated.
Gorillas have tiny dicks, which is like extraordinary.
Like, think about that.
Next time the girl, you talking to her girl, she's like,
oh, you got like, what is it called?
Like little dick syndrome or little dick energy?

(05:23):
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Something like that.
Just be like, oh, you want me to be like big in macho
and a big man, kind of like a gorilla?
Guess what?
You're wrong.
You're so wrong.
- It's all about those little facts.
- The little bitty facts can change your life.
Can change your dating.
Like imagine if you meet your wife on that.
(laughs)
And you get, you get in dog going married.

(05:46):
And it's like, and then after the marriage,
maybe you have some friends, I'm like, how did y'all meet?
Like, well, let me tell you about it
and let me tell you about this thing I know about gorillas,
okay, 'cause it's gonna blow your mind.
And that's how crazy life is.
You know how they say like the butterfly flaps
the swings and then history changes?
- Right, there you go.
Gorilla has a tiny penis and life is there.

(06:10):
That is it, man, listen.
And those mofos are the most alpha things out there.
Speaking of alpha, if you could change one thing about your life
and I'm talking about your entire life
from the age of zero until now, you can make one change.
What would it be?
- Ooh, man.
Oh, let's see.

(06:31):
You know, you're thinking through all those regrets
that you've had in your life, but like, I don't know.
I think, I think I would travel more.
I think I think I would have spent more time
trying to get out and see more of the world.
- Is there like a specific area of the world
that you're most interested in?
- Really, I would love to see everywhere.

(06:54):
Like, I'm pretty interested.
I think it'd be cool to go see that European lifestyle,
but also like New Zealand, go see parts of Asia,
really just the entire world.
- And what about it appeals to you?
Like, what is the one thing you're looking to get out of that travel?
- I think just understanding people.
I think it's so easy to get stuck in your little corner of the world

(07:17):
and not under, like, not have more nuanced view of the world
when you're around other people you live in their culture,
you understand like where they're coming from.
Like, that gives you so much more of an appreciation
on so much more of a tolerance for people.
Things nowadays are so just divisive and like,

(07:37):
to get clicks and to get that.
And like, once you're around other people and you're like,
"No, like I see this point they're coming from."
Like, I think it's so important to be able to understand that.
- Man, that is so well said by the way.
Is there something specific that has made you want to seek out?
Let's call it like enlightenment or different viewpoints?

(08:01):
- Yeah, so for me, it really is my loss of my Mormon faith
and like understanding, so part of being a Mormon
is like you do a two-year mission.
And so I was in, I was in the South,
the US South, I was in South Georgia for that two years.
And like, just even inside of my own country,
like seeing how different that bit of the world is

(08:23):
and like the different problems that people face there
and like, what, what they're,
how they're understanding their world view
from where they're at really made me think like we,
like life is so short and like people are so cool
that like to understand other people is to like find happiness.
- That, oh man, that is beautifully put.

(08:46):
And you know what is somewhat related,
or it really resonates with me.
I am born and raised in Southern Louisiana
like 10 miles from the Gulf of Mexico.
So other in Louisiana.
- Oh yeah.
- And, you know, it was born and raised
and I needed work or I was gonna starve.
And so I expanded my job search to the whole country.

(09:09):
And in the past, I don't know, five or six years,
I've been so thankful, I've been able to live in Illinois.
I, from there, I went to San Diego, California,
lived there for a couple years.
Then from there went to Charlotte, North Carolina,
worked and lived there for a couple years.
And I'm also currently in Colorado.

(09:32):
And so you were just spot on.
I kind of, I guess I've lived, kind of exactly what you're saying.
In Southern Louisiana, there's like,
there's like a certain mindset there.
It's so hard to explain it if I try, I'll fail.
But in Southern Louisiana, there's just, there's a mindset,
you know, if you say certain things
that maybe makes sense in California,

(09:56):
you'll get made fun of in Louisiana and vice versa.
There's certain things that people have really opened about
and there's certain things that you can't talk about.
There's certain habits that are ingrained.
So we like to fucking party in Southern Louisiana.
We like to drink and eat lots of food.
And if you're not doing that, then you're just not cool.

(10:16):
Well, for example, in Colorado,
if you're not hiking and in the outdoors, you're not cool.
So it's just, it's completely different.
And you're spot on.
I've been so thankful to be able to see the way different people interact
because it is really, really different,
depending on where you go.
It is really, really different.

(10:37):
And it's always for the better.
Like you said, I was going to it with an open mind.
Hey, listen, some of the stuff they do,
maybe a little bit weird to me,
but hey, let's try it, why not?
Yeah, let's go on a hike at 2 a.m.
Because that's quote unquote fun.
OK, weirdos, let's give it a shot.
And maybe it is fun.
But it's just, I always encourage people,

(10:58):
if you can, to get out your bubble and just kind of, hey,
see what's out there, because you never
know that one thing that you're struggling with in your life,
the solution to it may exist in Oregon, right?
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, if you're not willing to, because like, I get it,
because like, also part of like being a Mormon on a mission,

(11:20):
is you're like, I'm going to go convert all of these people
to my way of thinking.
So the very like, like colonialistic, like time
to convert you to what I'm thinking.
But I also took the opportunity while I was there
to be like, like, this is the culture, this is what,
this is what Southern Georgia is like, this is understanding it.
So yeah, you get outside of your bubble,
you do those things and it gives you

(11:41):
so much more of an appreciation for the world around you.
How were you introduced to Mormonism?
So I grew up in it.
My great, great, grand parents were part of the handcart
companies that came across the plains and were fleeing,
they left their life in England to come here

(12:03):
and then went across the plains.
In fact, one of my ancestors, they
say on her headstone was one of the last people
to die coming across the plains, because the history there
is there were a couple of the, they called them handcart
companies. It was for the really poor pioneers who
couldn't afford to have a wagon and all of these other things.

(12:24):
So they had to get, like, they had to break down their stuff
into like 15 pounds as all they could bring of their personal
belongings.
And they just had to push their way across the plains
and they left way too late and got caught
in Wyoming at the start of winter.
And so a lot of people died.
And so one of my ancestors died the day
before they got into the Salt Lake Valley, which

(12:46):
would have been safety in home.
So it goes all the way back to there is where my story of Mormonism
starts and my, it's my grandparents, my parents, everyone.
And so I grew up in it.
So this was just the way life you never have kind of known growing
up, not being a Mormon.

(13:07):
Nope.
I've never, I had never known anything different.
I mean, so I'm in Idaho in Southeast Idaho, which
is just north of Salt Lake City in Utah.
And so it's very much the culture of the area as well.
I mean, almost all of my friends were Mormon.
Everyone you know is Mormon.

(13:27):
Mormons break up their congregations
into what they call wards.
And it's based on a geographic area.
And so my neighborhood was my congregation.
And that was everything.
Like it was, it's so all encompassing in your life
because they used to do, too, like a lot more activities.
So Tuesday and Wednesday nights, I
would be at the church doing things with friends.

(13:50):
On Sundays, I'd be doing that.
I was involved in scouts, which the scouts in the church
used to have a really kind of incestuous relationship.
They've sensed split.
But so I mean, I was always doing everything in my life
was somehow related to church, even so much in that here.
They have things called seminary, which

(14:11):
isn't like traditional seminary where people actually
go and learn a lot of beneficial things.
But this is for high school students.
It's a building that is right across the street from the high school.
You'll notice when they build schools in this area,
the church also buys a plot of land right next to the school,
where they have a building.
And the curriculum is designed as such

(14:31):
that there's an hour of release time in the school schedule
so that all of the Mormon kids can go walk across the street
and then all of the classes in seminary
line up perfectly with the classes at school
so that it was even part of my school day
was going and attending essentially Mormon church
in the middle of it.
Now, not like the Sunday services,

(14:52):
but learning about all of the different scriptures
and the founders and everything.
Hey, could you talk about that for a moment?
Because I don't think a lot of people
are very knowledgeable about what is the Mormon religion.
They just kind of--
I think most people group it in with most Bible-based religions
such as Christianity.
So could you give a brief overview of what is Mormonism?

(15:16):
Yeah, I will do my best.
So it's a lot-- and when you leave Mormonism,
a lot of people are either really into researching it.
Oh my god, this camera blur makes my mustache look
like I have a little Hitler stash on my god.
Anyway--
Oh, no!
[LAUGHTER]
I don't think this normally--
If you start talking German, I'm going to throw something

(15:38):
at you.
[LAUGHTER]
This is awful.
So the quick version of Mormonism in 1820,
there is a boy named Joseph Smith who
decides that he-- the story of the church
tells is that he didn't know which religion to join.
So as he was reading his scriptures,

(16:00):
God told him essentially that he needed
to pray to find out what religion was right.
He prayed to say, what's the one true religion?
And you have to kind of understand
the religious fervor of the time.
I mean, this is when different Protestant faiths
and everything were going and having
revivals town to town.
And they didn't have entertainment.

(16:22):
They didn't have podcasts.
The one book you might have had as the Bible, maybe a few others.
And so when these preachers would come into town,
that is the entertainment.
That is everything is religion.
And people really knew the Bible because if it's the only book
you have to read, you read it.
So he prays, says, hey, what church is right?
And then God comes to him.

(16:45):
God and Jesus Christ come down out of the sky, say,
none of the churches are right.
You're going to start the church.
Obviously, this is broken down.
So from there, he starts the church.
He finds these gold plates.
God tells him where these gold plates are buried in upstate
New York from the ancient Indians that were here.

(17:08):
And this is their record.
It's essentially another testament of Jesus Christ.
So they believe that back in the 16--
let's see, it would have been the year 600 A.B.C. people
fled Israel somehow built a boat came across the Americas.

(17:29):
And this is also described the origin of Native Americans.
And then they had a whole culture and civilization here
that culminates in Jesus Christ visiting the Americas.
And so essentially, Mormon see the book of Mormon
like another, an addition to the Bible.
It's more scripture.
And so Joseph Smith is able to translate these gold plates

(17:52):
from their ancient language and start a religion that
has endured to today where there is a lot of different beliefs.
The church recently has started to make themselves
seem a lot more mainstream Christian and gone away
from the beliefs that kind of separate them
from the mainstream Christianity.

(18:15):
So that's kind of a quick overview
that there is so much more in there.
How old was Joseph Smith whenever he discovered the plates
and translated them?
Do you know?
So he would have been in his early 20s.
So when he originally went and prayed,
he was a 14 year old boy.

(18:39):
There's a lot to speak as to whether the validity of that story.
I mean, one of God just coming out of the sky is a little bit.
But he also recorded multiple versions of what
is called in Mormonism the first vision.
Or that's when God came.
And so there's six different revisions that you read there.
But most common, it's when he was 14.

(19:02):
And then he started translating the book of Mormon of about 20.
OK.
Do these gold plates exist?
Like can someone go see him in a museum today?
No.
For some reason, God wanted them back.
He didn't want people to see him.
So I should write crazy how that happens.
So yeah, the gold plates--

(19:24):
the translation story is really interesting, too,
because the way he translated these and the church
started to be a lot more open to with the history, which
is good and bad.
I mean, it's not bad.
It's good.
It's bad for the church.
But he translated them with a seer stone.

(19:45):
So essentially a rock that he found while digging a well
in a hat is he would stick his face in the hat when he found it.
No.
So he found the rock.
And he would put it in a hat.
And then he would put his face in the hat to translate.
They call it reformed Egyptian.
It's wild.

(20:09):
So like everything I say, there's like 20 more rabbit holes
you could like jump down just from there.
But yeah.
So he claimed when he found these plates in the box where
he found them, there was a sword.
And then there was what they call a yurum and thumum, which
is described as like a rest plate that also had two like clear

(20:29):
stones that came up, so like essentially glasses, but like it's
a fixed-tier chest.
And then they would come up and like be the glasses.
And he was supposed to read from it from there.
But he also did it from the rock in the hat.
And he didn't have to be looking at the plates.
So even though in the book of Mormon, there
are witnesses to these so-called plates.

(20:51):
When you read more into how they witnessed these plates, they
say they witnessed them with their spiritual eyes.
And so these people at this time would have fully believed
that they, like if they had visions and like dreams,
that that was just as good as seeing something in person.
But that metaphysical knowledge is just as real as like me seeing

(21:16):
this computer screen in front of me.
And so there's a lot of question if anyone actually
saw gold plates.
And when you break down, like he talks about the dimensions
of the gold plates, if you were to break down what that would
weigh in gold, I mean, it would be like 100 pounds of just like a book,
because gold is so heavy.

(21:36):
And he apparently had to like evade persecution.
People tried to steal the plates.
And so there's lots of stories in Mormonism where like he would hide
the plates and like a barrel of grain.
And they wouldn't find it.
And because no one could see these, God commanded that no one,
no one else should see these plates.
Man, that is crazy.

(21:57):
So they, they kind of witnessed this event kind of mentally.
And a lot of people call BS on that.
I'm not ready yet.
One interesting thing is the United States government actually
spent years researching how to mentally teleport
to anywhere in the world.

(22:19):
And apparently they had some levels of success.
There's declassified documents on it, all that.
But I'm saying, listen, if the United States government is researching
this, hey, maybe back in the day, they could actually do it.
I don't know.
But just put yourself, let's just say, look, I'm not calling,
I'm not calling BS on John Smith, not yet.
I look, I don't know.
But could you imagine, like just imagine if you really were John Smith.

(22:41):
And oh my gosh, God came to you and said,
listen, all these religions suck you the man, go find these plates.
You're going to do it all.
You're going to start a whole revolution that's
going to exist till 2024.
And they could you imagine it's like, OK, right?
If we're being sane here, we're like, ah, this is kind of like BS,
man, I was doing some drugs, maybe it was the drugs, maybe it was God.

(23:04):
I don't know.
And then you're like, all right, I guess I'm going to New York.
I don't have nothing better to do.
All right, cool.
What have I gone to New York?
I'm guessing they had a horse in buggy?
I don't know.
That's where he lived.
Oh, he lived.
OK, I'm sorry.
He just so happened.
He's just so lucky to have been right there in upstate New York, where it all
happened.
Well, God chose him.

(23:24):
That's why God chose him.
Exactly.
OK, this is making sense.
And then you're like, ah, OK, I guess I'll dig next to this tree.
This is kind of dumb.
I got homework to do whatever.
But all right.
And then just imagine you actually find these plates.
What's the first thought that would go through your head?
Because I'll tell you the first thought that goes through my head is no one's going to believe

(23:46):
this.
Right.
Like, yeah, yeah.
Like God came to me.
OK, these plates are here.
Like, yeah, no one would believe that.
It's an unbelievable story.
Exactly.
And I think even in the Bible, don't like a lot of the prophets and stuff, like in the, like,
Mark, Luke, John, all of those.

(24:08):
Don't they say like, God, how do we make people believe?
Like, well, you're doing this crazy stuff.
How do we like make people believe?
So even back then when, you know, Jesus was doing crazy stuff, right?
They're like, hey, how people are going to believe this dude?
Well, you're like, how do we solve this problem?
And so maybe, maybe God did give John Smith instructions.

(24:32):
Like this is how you make people believe you need to put the plates in a museum or something
like that.
But John Smith was like, no, I want to be a king.
Maybe there is.
So there is some interesting things with the translation story and like, God talking to
Joseph Smith about it.
So like, there was at one point in time, one of the people who was helping him translate,

(24:54):
because he would, he wouldn't write this himself.
He would just dictate the translation.
And then he had someone writing down for him, whether it was his wife or in this case, it
would have been Martin Harris who had done a lot of financing to four Joseph Smith.
So there's also an interesting relation there.

(25:14):
But Martin wanted to show his wife.
He wanted to prove like, hey, no, we're doing these things.
And so it's a story in Mormon history of these lost 116 pages.
So they began translating the book of Mormon.
They did 116 pages.
And according to the story, Martin Harris is like, Joseph, I need to show these to my wife.

(25:37):
She doesn't believe me.
She spent a lot of money.
Like, she just wants some proof that this is real.
And so Joseph says, like, nope, God has said you can't.
He asked God three times.
God says no every time.
And finally, or I think the third time, God's finally like, okay, you can, essentially like
the parent teaching their child, like, oh, you can do this.

(25:58):
So he does it.
And those pages were never seen again.
And so then Joseph Smith has a problem.
He can't, you know, if he's translating, he should just be able to re-translate these pages.
And we should still have that record.
But instead, he's like, nope, God punished me.
Now I can't re-translate it because someone's going to change the manuscript and put

(26:21):
out that I'm a real translator.
So instead, we're just going to wash it.
And conveniently, the next part of the scripture is kind of talks about what was talked about
there, but from a different perspective, crazy.
So then their translation was stopped for a while because God was angry.
That's so, was it true?

(26:42):
I heard that John Smith, or Joseph Smith, the originator guy that he had like a bunch of wives,
is that true?
At one point in time, 40 wives, yeah.
So it's really interesting too, because there's, there's mother daughter pairs, there are
sister pairs.
He would even...
What's a pair?

(27:04):
What's a sister pair?
So like, he would marry both sisters from a pair.
Oh man!
What a pair!
Oh my gosh!
Yeah, the youngest was 14.
Yeah, so...
How old was he?
He would have been in his mid to late 20s?
Lord!
Oh my goodness, he likes him young.
Yeah, that's a...
That's a common theme through some of the early leaders of the church.

(27:38):
And he would even...
So he would tell these guys that they needed to go, "Create the gospel to people in England."
So he would send them away on missions and then he would marry their wives while they
were gone.
Yo, what is up with this?
Yo, these guys, I don't know...
See, okay, here's the question, because I know it every...

(28:01):
If anyone's...
I know what they're thinking, they're like, "Oh, well, you know, screw all of Mormonism,
because this guy was obviously a dog and a pedophile."
But I wonder...
What's that normal?
What's that normal for guys to do?
Another famous story in the Bible is David, like this beautiful woman, that sheba...

(28:22):
Oh, yeah.
She was married, right?
And he's like...
And David's the freaking king of the land.
So David's like, "Damn, I really...
I want this girl so bad."
So what David did was send her husband out on a suicide mission battle, okay, essentially,
to kill the husband, which he succeeded in doing, and then had a baby with his ex-wife because

(28:44):
he was dead, right?
So that...
Yo, so my question is, are these hyper-religious God-serving people just super-duper creepy?
Or was everyone super-duper-creepy?
Ooh, that is interesting.
I think that being able to use God to course people is nothing new.

(29:10):
I mean, again, we see that with the Bible.
We see that in a lot of things.
So are there people who use that?
I think some of these hyper-religious folks are creepy and use God to further their means.
Well, let's support your argument.
Translated to today, what's the most common one that everybody knows, the Catholic priest,

(29:32):
which nowadays, like if you and I were doing some of that stuff, date and 14 years, we'd
be in jail, right?
So it's not normal.
We know that, and these Catholic priests did molest a bunch of kids.
So your argument is kind of whole-knut that they're using this to advance their sexual desires.
Well, and it's making...
It's going big in Mormonism now, too, because the way the church is designed is, instead

(29:59):
of now, calling the...
So the average person, right, has a kid in their office talking to him and this kid says,
"Hey, I'm being sexually abused."
You and I are going to call the cops.
We're going to call them immediately and say, like, we need to get this kid out.
This is disgusting.
This is awful.
Someone's ass needs to be in jail right this second.
What?
The church tells their untrained bishops to do.

(30:21):
So bishops are volunteer, like your average congregation leader doesn't get paid in Mormonism.
They are just... they're the dentist at Down the Street who has now been thrown into this
role where they're supposed to be interviewing children.
And it's... it gets real dicey now because a lot of the questions they ask, so you can attend

(30:42):
the Mormon temple because you have to have a pass to get in.
And it's only for the most faithful Mormons who are doing all of the right things.
And so this bishop, which is usually some man in his 30s, 40s, 50s, will sit alone in a
room with a child, 12, 13, 14 year old child and ask them specifically, do you masturbate?

(31:06):
Do you look at pornography?
Do you do these things?
Because that's considered a sin that would keep you out of the temple.
And so they're... it's ripe for abuse.
And instead of having to call the police in a lot of states, I'd have specifically included,
is they have a loophole called clergy penitent privilege so that if someone confesses to

(31:29):
them inside of this spiritual area, they are not a mandatory reporter.
They don't have to call the cops and what the church is clarified is that they need to
call their law helpline, which will then try and protect the church from looking bad.
So there have been big stories coming out of cases where like the church has tried to

(31:50):
pay off survivors of abuse to try and get them to not tell their story.
And it's in hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars that they spend to avoid having
this stuff go public and hurt the name of the church.
Whoa.
Listen, people can say whatever they want about how like stuff is changing as time's going

(32:12):
on, some good, some bad, whatever, but one thing that has changed and probably definitely
for the better.
Because we have zero tolerance for like pedophile actions.
It's like as the day goes on, like now you just have a regular guy like me, I ride my bike
in front of elementary school, people throwing rocks at me, like, oh, yeah, pedophile.

(32:33):
I'm exaggerating, but I think that's great, man.
We don't fuck with kids and that's awesome.
So what you're saying is that me as the parent would send my 11 year old boy off to the
pastor of the Roman, not Roman, oh my gosh, Mormon church.
And I would know that this man is going to put my child in a room by himself and ask him

(32:57):
a sexually suggestive questions.
That's what you're saying.
And it's just and when you're part of it for so long, it's a lot of religious abuse can
mimic what happens in just abusive relationships because it can.

(33:18):
I think faith works for a lot of people.
I myself am no longer religious.
I don't affiliate with any sort of religion.
I would call myself probably a hopeful agnostic.
I hope there's a God out there.
If there is great, if not, I'm still living my life that I, you know, I feel like I'm covered
if there's a God, if he's not a raging asshole.

(33:38):
So to go back to that, you're just so used to that.
Like, that is, this is God's way.
Why would I question that?
Why would I question that, you know, a spiritual leader should be able to ascertain my worthiness
to attend the temple, which makes me feel icky even saying like, like, oh, you get to decide
if I'm worthy, you're, but it's part of the religion.

(34:02):
And it's so ingrained that, yeah, a parent wouldn't even question sending their kid in.
Okay.
Could you explain maybe from the Mormon church side, what is the function of this meeting
with the child?
You were saying something like to measure their worthiness?
Yeah.
So to attend the temple, which is where Mormons do, oh, that's a good way to describe it.

(34:28):
I mean, it's not like they're in their sacrifice and goats or anything crazy, but they do, they
do baptism, they do vicarious baptisms for people who have passed away.
So it's not like they believe the person is actually there, you know, they're not digging
at bones and baptizing them, but you go as a kid and do baptisms for people who have passed
away.
They do ceiling there.
So instead of being married for till death, do you part if you're a Mormon and you get

(34:52):
married in the temple, it's for time and all eternity.
So it's forever and ever that you will be married to your spouse and some other interesting
things that happen in the temple, like you get a new temple name.
You learn the hand shakes to get into heaven, which very much resemble a Masonic ceremony.
And so to be able to go there and to do these things, this is supposed to get you to the

(35:16):
highest level of Mormon heaven.
So Mormons don't believe in the traditional heaven and hell structure.
It's there's heaven and inside of heaven, there are three degrees of glory.
So to get to the top heaven, you have to do all of these things in the temple to be able
to attain that.
And so to go to the temple, you have to be worthy.

(35:38):
So they ask questions like, do you, like, are you honest in your dealings with your fellow
men?
Do you, they call it the law of chastity is what they call it.
So they Mormons believe that God has told us that like sex is only for making children
really and it's between a man and a woman.
After they're married, no sex before marriage, no masturbation, no nothing.

(36:02):
They also ask if you follow the word of wisdom, which is where do you drink alcohol, do you
do illegal drugs, do you drink coffee or tea because coffee and tea are the same level as
illegal drugs apparently.
And so just other questions like that to ascertain whether or not you are following the Mormon religion
or not, the other big one, which I find kind of insidious is, do you pay your tithing?

(36:27):
So you have to pay 10% of your income to the church.
If not, you're not able to go to the highest levels of heaven, which is means Mormons kind
of pay to win, even though they'll deny it, but it is.
Of course.
And if you go in there and the pastor asks you these questions and you say something like,
yeah, you know what pastor, I jack off every day.

(36:49):
What?
You're not allowed into temple.
So you're not allowed into temple and it's a, it really depends because there is no real
specific training for bishops.
We call it bishop roulette in the in the expormant space.
It's whether you get a good bishop or a bad bishop.
So you might have one who just says, yeah, you can attend the temple and let's let's see

(37:15):
in three months.
You know, try not to jack off, try not to do that or they might say, you know what?
Or a teenage boy, of course, every teenage boy is going to jack off every now and again,
you're fine.
Just, you know, that's between you and God.
A lot of people don't want to know that.
And there's plenty of really great people in the church.
I think 99% of Mormons are some of the best people I've ever met.
They are people who want to be closer to God, who want to do the right thing and be good

(37:39):
people.
It's just that it's also an assistant that harbors that is right for abuse.
So, or it could be they don't let you take the sacrament.
So during the during the service on Sunday, they pass around the bread and water to, you
know, do just like a almost like a Catholic church where the bread is Jesus's body.

(38:01):
The water is the is his blood.
And so you partake of that.
They may say that you are not able to partake of the sacrament for three months.
And so there you are in front of everyone, everyone you know is passing it down and you have
to publicly refuse the sacrament.
Which means people know something's wrong.

(38:21):
If you're a teenage boy, it's like, you probably had sex.
That is so funny.
I think you make such a good distinction and you just drove by it, but it's a great point,
which is that people may see or learn about some of these Mormon traditions.

(38:41):
The gold plates, where are they at?
How this guy have so many wives, 14 year olds, and they may just say, oh, Mormonism sucks.
Oh, are you a Mormon?
That means you suck too.
Boom, done.
And we do this with a lot of stuff, not just Mormons, but what you said is that people, the
actual people who are Mormons who are in the church are generally awesome people.

(39:04):
And I have to say that I had an extremely similar experience.
I was raised in church in like a Christian church in the deep south, right?
My whole life went to church like three times a week.
And while a lot of people like to bag on Christians or church or, you know, Jesus of the

(39:25):
Bible and some of the stuff is legitimate issues, right?
The people that I grew up with in the church were awesome.
They were awesome people.
I mean, give their shirt off your back, help you win your down, help you in any way possible
tell you funny jokes.
There were cool people.

(39:47):
There were very few jerks in the church.
I just have to be honest, if, if for example, four out of 10 people were jerks and going to
school, maybe one out of 10 people were jerks in church.
And it was a different type of jerk.
This is like a snooty jerk.
It's like, oh, I'm not getting in your car.
You drive a Toyota.

(40:08):
But it's so it's like this little slick side stuff.
And I just wish that people could make that distinction.
That just because you were a Mormon doesn't make you an asshole, just because maybe the religion
is an asshole or maybe they know someone in the religion who's an asshole.
And so that's such a great point you make and I'm glad you said that.

(40:28):
Yeah.
It's the phrase that I've heard and is kind of a mantra and a lot of things is it's
systems, not people.
Because people are people are amazing.
I think we see things that are so sensationalized today and we see, we see the worst of humanity

(40:48):
and it's thrown in our face all the time.
But if I walk outside right now, I'm not going to get gunned down in the street and robbed
and all of these different like the chances of that happening are so incredibly low.
The chances are I'm going to go out and see a neighbor who is an awesome person, have a great
conversation with them and they're someone who is just trying to live life and do the best

(41:11):
they have with the knowledge that they have.
And so just like how we see like especially like after 9/11, like how like Muslim people
have been so villainized in the United States when you go talk to your average Muslim and
they are going to be an amazing person who is doing their best to be a good member of
society.

(41:31):
I mean it's so unfortunate that these systems perpetrate so much harm and that of course
there are people who are not great.
But yeah, just like you said, these people you go to church with, there are great Christians,
there are great Muslims, there are great Jews, there are great atheists, everything in
between and it's so crucial that we differentiate.

(41:53):
People from a system they are a part of especially nowadays.
I mean it feels like you're almost the way our society is like I don't know, I've lost
time going with that point.
The major point is people are awesome for 95, 99% of people are going to be great.

(42:15):
Absolutely and it seems like a lot of religions are in the crosshairs but by the way I think
that there's a lot of religions that we don't call religions nowadays.
It's just my gutta saying that people are looking for belief in lots of things nowadays.
You'll see people for example in academia, whatever you talk about, they're like, oh there's

(42:36):
a scientific student, it all boils down to your scientific everything.
It's kind of like a religion.
You see a lot of people with sports, oh everything's a sport, their whole house is a sport,
everything's about sports.
Oh you talk about sports, we're going to fight.
Oh man, like that's, you're not just a fan bro, this is a religion.
This is crossed the line.

(42:56):
You'll see probably the one that's thrown in her face day in and day out is politics.
It's like hey, I believe this and if you don't believe this then guess what you're an asshole
and it's very, looks, smells, tastes like a religion but we don't call it that and yeah,
you're totally right.
By the way, after 9/11 it wasn't just like discrimination, it was just straight up God

(43:19):
dog going racism.
Like hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
So this Muslim guy's on the plane?
Oh fuck no, I'm leaving.
Fuck that.
Fuck you, you Muslim bitch.
Fuck you.
You got to blow it up, you bastard.
It was, it was crazy man.
It was crazy.
But you had a mortal story is, hey, listen people are cool.
Talk to them, walk around in their shoes, guarantee you're like them most of the time.

(43:42):
There are some legit assholes but uh, could you, could you tell me like what is a week
like for your average Mormon?
Yeah.
So, and it's changed.
I've been out of it for three or four years now.
So for a long time in the church, it, I mean, it's, it's pretty all encompassing and it's

(44:02):
gonna change a little bit whether you are in kind of this uta Idaho in the Mormon corridor
here along I-15 or if you are, you know, somewhere else in the US but generally or, or the world
even, generally for your average Mormon in my part of the world, you are gonna start
off Sunday, you're gonna go to church for two hours.

(44:23):
Um, it used to be three when I was in, they've shortened it up, dang it.
What's a church service like?
Yeah, so, uh, church services broken up into what they call sacrament meeting, that's
where you go, the main part of it is supposed to be you have the sacrament and then you hear
a couple of talks.
So again, there's no paid clergy so it's just members of the congregation a lot of the

(44:46):
times or it may be some people from the, the area, kind of the area, division of the church
who come and speak, but most of the time it's just gonna be other congregants.
It may even be you who has to go up and give a short sermon.
Um, so you have that and then afterwards it breaks into groups half of the time it's gonna

(45:07):
be Sunday school so the adults go to their own classes, children go to their own classes
or it's gonna be what they call, rested in relief society.
So things are very true, what scene is like the nuclear family, traditional in the church,
men have their roles, women have their roles, those are very separated.
And so the men go off and do their thing and the women go off and do their thing.

(45:29):
And that's kind of your average, your average, once a month, I like to call it open mic
Sunday but they call it testimony meeting.
That's where things get wild because people just have the mic and can go up and say whatever
they want, which is always a little bit interesting.
It's fun now is an expormenary now and again because my parents are still active.

(45:49):
I'll go to church with them or, but just to see these things as wild.
What, what, what are they talking about today?
They'd be like, Hey, Mary, I know you took my baloney out the fridge.
Is this stuff like that?
Like what's the wild stuff you're referring to?
So I mean, sometimes you get that so you, you get all types.
And so I mean, sometimes you have the people who go up there and there, I mean, it's their

(46:14):
journal for the month.
They're, I went to the temple with my family and we were just able to go see people and I
was just so uplifted in the spirit to be able to go and be around family and then, and then
I was at the doctor's office and I, I just had this impression come to my mind that Jesus
is like, you get a lot of that or you get the people who are like, and I know Jan,

(46:38):
from down the street is just the, you know, they helped me in this and so and so could have
helped me better and you're like, Oh, shit, like things are, but chit's popping off.
Like they're calling out names.
They're, that doesn't happen too often.
A lot of times it's your bog standard.
Like I, I know the church is true.
This is good.
You know, Jesus is important.

(46:59):
And that's it.
But it can get a little wild, you know, and you've got your neighborhood up there and
people have the mic to say whatever they want.
Yeah, that is, I've seen stuff like that too in the church.
I've seen some pretty wild stuff and not, not to that extent, probably some of the wild stuff
ever because there's kind of like, you call them open mic nights or whatever in a Christian

(47:23):
church is to one of the wildest ones was this guy came up as like, I know there's at least
three people who sexually sin in all the time in this church right now.
And it's like, Oh boy.
And everyone's like, Oh man, you know what?
Like I haven't seen Matt in a couple Sundays and now he's here.
I bet it's Matt.

(47:44):
Oh, Matt his jeans are a little bit tight stuff like that.
So they like to, they like to do passive aggressive stuff.
But okay, so back to the week.
So we go to church.
Yeah.
So you go to church.
And then on Sundays, two to three hours and then what?
So if you're, if you're a good, now I'm going to talk about the most orthodox of Mormonism.

(48:04):
Of course, you know, beliefs fall everywhere in between, but like if you are following what
the church says you need to do every day on Sunday, you're going to go home.
You're not really going to watch TV.
You are going to stay in your church clothes and it's going to be a day of reflection.
Depending on what you do in the church, it may be filled with meetings because there's

(48:26):
no paid clergy and it's all local.
Like the bishop is going to be doing temple recommended interviews after church.
He's going to be helping, you know, prepare the tithing deposit that needs to happen.
But for your, for your average Mormon, they're going to go home.
They're going to spend time with their family.
They're going to probably read scriptures.

(48:46):
They're going to do activities to come closer to family, which that's really neat.
Have be able to kind of set aside a lot of things and just focus on your family.
I think that's really great.
Oh, yeah.
So that's going to be, that's going to be your Sunday on Monday.
It's going to be your average day.
You're going to go to work.
Do your job because you're still a member of society.
And then Monday night is supposed to be what's called family home evening where you go and

(49:09):
you talk.
You do like a little lesson at home with your family to talk about the church.
You do an activity and usually have like a little treat.
So it's a more time spent as a family focused on the church on Tuesday.
If you are a youth, a Tuesday or Wednesday, if you're, you know, under 18, you're going
to be going to activities at the church.

(49:30):
They do different things.
It might be like volleyball or basketball or when I was in, they were still part of scouts.
So I would go and like work on merit badges and do all of these different things at the
church.
We would go on fun activities, which a lot of it was really cool.
I mean, to be able to go and do that like when rock climbing and go to the laser tag
or just smother different things just to have an activity.

(49:55):
After that, really you're going to go through your week.
You may have different meetings, you know, if you need to have your, there could be, you
know, like a relief society activity or a priesthood activity somewhere in there.
Those are a little less frequent than the effectivities.
So that's going to be kind of your average week as a warm-in.
Cool.

(50:15):
What about, so I think most of society and most of their general population is whenever you
say more, man, they're most familiar with the people who come knock on your door and
depressions and they give you the pamphlets.
Like how do you become one of these people and what is that like?
Yeah, so I did this.
So to become a missionary, it's boys and girls, for boys, it's from the age of 18 to, I believe,

(50:41):
26.
For girls, it's from the age of 19 to, well, really they can serve multiple missions if they
want.
That's newer and years common.
Most people, it's one and done.
For the man, it can only be one, but as a woman, technically you could serve two or three
different missions.
But to do that, you just have to be, at least 18, you have to be worthy to go to the temple

(51:04):
and then you submit your papers.
So it's almost like a warm-in ride of passage is going on a mission.
It's expected of every young man, the Mormon prophet, which is like the leader of the entire
church, has said every worthy young man should serve a mission.
And for women, it's kind of optional, double standard there.

(51:24):
And so you submit your papers, you have to fill out a lot, you have medical checkups just
to make sure that you are healthy to go.
And they've improved a lot of this too, where they now they also make sure that like you
are mentally well, that you take care of your mental health, which is really good because
I saw a lot of people not taking care of their mental health when I was on my mission,

(51:48):
a lot of depression.
But to be able to go and do that, you have all these checkups and then they tell you where
you go, you don't get to say.
So you wait and it's a big part of your mission is getting your mission call.
You get a letter in the mail and usually there's parties and you get together and you read
it with your family to say, where am I going to go on my mission?

(52:11):
So for me, I opened up my letter and I was assigned to the Macon, Georgia mission.
So I went to Macon, Georgia and my mission covered almost all of South Georgia except for a
little bit of like the way Cross area and it dipped into Alabama covered out through
Auburn and then it also dipped into South Carolina.

(52:33):
So just a little bit of South Carolina, like coastal like Beaufort, not all the way up
to Charleston and then in towards like Aiken, South Carolina.
So a big geographic area, you get assigned there and then you spend a few weeks depending
on whether you go foreign or domestic if you need to learn a language because they go everywhere.

(52:55):
So they have what's called the Missionary Training Center.
They have a few of them throughout the world, biggest ones in Provo and then you go and you're
there anywhere from two or three weeks out to nine weeks depending on if you have to learn
a mission or learn a language or not.
So I was only there for two and a half weeks where they teach you about like how to go and

(53:16):
teach the gospel and like just get you ready to be a missionary.
Okay.
And then so your mission is every mission essentially to go knock on door to door and spread
the word for the most part.
There's also service missions where you might go and like the church, so the church is like
one of the largest landowners in Florida.

(53:37):
So they have farms, they have different things that you may go serve there to be part of
that.
That's way less common or you may be what's called a service missionary.
So you may stay back and do like a lot of genealogy work or work like essentially one of the
church businesses that is like when you get those pass long cards like there's a number

(53:58):
you can call or like a link that you can go.
So you might do like just like chat and phone support and be a missionary that way.
Cool.
But what is it?
What is it like going door to door like is that a good experience, a bad experience?
Do you get cost out a lot?
So for me, I'm in the Bible belt, which I was in the Bible, which was great.

(54:26):
So I don't love when people use the term cult or religion.
However, the most culty thing that I have done is probably the mission because it is so
strict.
So there's a reason there's always two people when you see them.
You have to be with them 24/7.
The only time you cannot be around them is when you're going to the bathroom.

(54:48):
But other than that, like you stay in the church provided apartment, now you have to pay
to go on your mission.
It works out now to about $10,000 for the two years.
And every month and your family pays that or like members of your congregation will help
pay that, but you pay to go do this.
They're not paid and you are with this.

(55:10):
You don't get to pick who you're with either.
It's randomly assigned about every six weeks.
You could change.
You could have to move to a different part of your mission.
You might stay there and someone else comes and lives with you and you're with that person
24/7 whether you like it or not.
And so you go out and it's a really strict schedule.
You wake up at like 6.37 in the morning.

(55:31):
You do scripture study by yourself.
Then you study with your companion.
You then have breakfast and then you go out to do missionary activity.
So a lot of times that's going out and knocking on doors.
That's walking around and approaching people on the street.
And that was really hard at first because especially in our culture now, it's weird.

(55:53):
Like door to door salesmen in the 60s, whatever.
Yeah, someone's going to come sell me a vacuum or knives or whatever.
But now someone knocks on your door and you're like, who the fuck is here?
Yeah.
What type of training were you given?
Were they like, okay, this is the first thing you need to say.
You should smile.
Were there any specific training to kind of like break that ice?

(56:15):
Not really, no.
So the way it's done is it's broken out.
They call them the missionary discussions and so there's book called Preach My Gospel
that talks about like the different.
They kind of have a structure of how they want you to teach with the first lesson.
You talk about Joseph Smith and then there's more and you go on and talk about the theology
and how the church works.

(56:36):
But no, there was no real training of like, here's how you approach a door.
Here's how you talk to people.
So you learn from some other person about your age who's been in the mission longer.
They're your trainer and they go out and they're the ones who teach you.
Like, okay, we're going to go knock on doors.
Here's how you do it.
And it was just kind of like get out there and go.

(56:57):
The first thing I would say, listen, I would be like, first for the guys, Joseph Smith started
the Mormons and before you close the door, he had 40 wives and was an absolute PIP.
Does that sound good to you, buddy?
Because listen, I know it's hard to get laid out here.
Tinder is it?
What it used to be?
So do you want to learn about this guy, Joseph Smith?

(57:19):
Okay, gold tablets, don't you like gold?
You have a gold chain on your neck?
Come on, bro.
We got some pamphlets.
Come on.
Hire me, Mormon church.
I will change everything.
There you go.
You need to fix their door approach.
Yes, sir.
Hi, I'm Elder Taylor.
If you've ever seen the Book of Mormon musical, it's fantastic, by the way.
But it really does kind of feel like that because you know, you're in this clean cut.

(57:42):
You have to have they specify.
You always have to be wearing white shirt, tie, name tag, clean cut hair, no facial hair,
nothing.
And you are, you know, those are the rules.
And so yeah, it's always the clean cut.
Like, hi, I'm Elder Taylor.
Do you have a minute I could talk to you?
Oh, I'm family about God or in the South, it was really interesting too because you would

(58:05):
run into like, apologists for these other churches.
And so sometimes you'd want to run into people who wanted to Bible bash, who wanted to
say, here's why.
You're wrong.
And so that was always kind of fun because it's a cocky like 19, 20 year old kid who has
been told the whole time that like, I have the one true religion.
God loves me the best because I was born white in Utah.

(58:28):
And the best.
So come at me, bro.
So there were definitely times where it would be like, you would run into someone of the farmer's
market and then they're like arguing you like, no, like the spirit is this.
And so you would be, you'd have your scriptures and all of a sudden you're going in, well,
and here in market says and then here it says this and they didn't encourage that a lot
because that kid's nowhere.
It's not like that's going to do anything.

(58:50):
But you know, 20 year old kid who thinks they've got, they know everything in the world,
you're going to do it.
Of course.
Yes.
20 year old kid, I'll argue about the best legos with anybody.
What are you talking about?
So what is the nicest way or the quickest way to get a Mormon to leave your door?

(59:14):
Oh, man.
So one, I always say, be nice to these people.
They are kids who don't know anything different.
It's not like they're like scheming like, I'm going to ruin this person's life and take
all their money.
Like, for the most part, these are genuine kids who are out there just doing what they know
best with their life.
So my first thing is be kind.

(59:38):
But you know, you can also have a little fun with it.
You know, you can say, oh, hey, you just made it in time.
Like, we're about to slide out of the go out back for our Satanist thing.
Oh my gosh.
Like, Hail Satan.
They'll probably be a little weird to that and go after that.
But I mean, honestly, it's just, hey, have a good day.
I'm not interested.
Take care.

(59:59):
That's going to get rid of most people.
You get the occasional pushy ones.
You know, if they're pushy, push back at them.
You know, they need to learn not to be absolutely.
Yeah, a lot of people.
So let me tell you my approach.
And this is my approach with almost anybody who's trying to sell me.
So I just, because my thing is that what I'll tell them, I'll say, well, first of all,

(01:00:20):
they identify themselves because they have the shirt on.
You know what they look like, right?
And then my approach is always, look, man, I don't want to waste your time.
Just, I'm sorry.
I don't want to waste your time.
It's like, I know exactly what you're going to say or what you have to tell me.
I'm just not interested.
And then if they continue, like, well, no, no, listen, I have something else.

(01:00:44):
They don't have something else.
I may give them three seconds and then I'll get a little bit more aggressive.
Be like, listen, I'm going to go have a nice day and then kind of slam the door, not slam
it, not slam it, but just kind of close the door, right?
Is that a good approach?
Yeah, I think that's all it.
I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they're still going to be like, I know, like, I know

(01:01:04):
I have the gospels, no, they're missing out because like, I think that's also probably
part of why Mormons go on missions is because it helps reinforce that like the world isn't
safe.
People are not going to listen to you.
They're going to slam the door in your face for what you believe.
And so come back into the fold after two years of being out there.

(01:01:25):
Like, it's your hero story.
You went out, you went and conquered all of the evil things and now you're back home, you're
a hero.
And so it's nice.
I think that's a fantastic way to do it.
I mean, you know, hey, not interested if they push back, push back too.
Yeah.
So what, what made you want to leave the Mormons?

(01:01:48):
So how long were you in it?
First of all, like, how many years and then like, what was the catalyst to you leaving?
So I was in it for 24 years.
Holy shit.
Yeah.
I mean, from the time I was born and told us about 24, so COVID really, COVID is what kind
of helped.
So the way things work.

(01:02:09):
So I listened to a podcast by super famous people, Rhett and Link.
They've been on the internet forever.
They did a podcast at one point in time and they talked about losing their Christian faith.
So they grew up as like charismatic Christians from North Carolina.
They were part of the ministry.
They did a lot.
And so they kind of talked about leaving their religion and I was, I remember I was driving

(01:02:32):
to work and I was listening to it.
I just got a new job and they were talking about like just about how they had left their
faith and I was like, man, their experience in their faith sounds really, really similar
to mine.
And then COVID happened.
So you weren't going to church, you know, all those activities I said, we didn't know

(01:02:52):
it was going on.
We social distance.
We didn't leave the house very much.
And so it was just that time.
And so when my whole entire life wasn't Mormonism, it wasn't eating, sleeping, living
Mormonism.
And I had a second to step back.
I was able to say, does this really make me happy?
Is this what's good?
And then you start to look at like, well, I'm a little curious.

(01:03:13):
Let me look and see what people have to say out there.
And then I came across this podcast called Mormon Stories Podcast and it's a gentleman who
has been doing it for a long time and he just talks to people and gets their story about
Mormonism.
And it was, it was just one that I really related with.
It was in a town not too far from where I'm at.

(01:03:35):
And I remember he was just talking about like, he was a professor at BYU and the spiritual
abuse he went through because you have to have a temple recommend to be a professor.
And so like his job was threatened by him questioning his religion and it just really spoke to me.
And I was like, maybe this isn't all, this isn't, you know, maybe I'm not getting the full

(01:03:55):
story.
Even though I went up and taught this for two years, like, maybe I don't know everything.
And then for me, I started to look at the history of the church and there's a famous document
called the CES letter.
It's the church education system.
And this person wrote a letter to this church education system director and said, "Here

(01:04:15):
my doubts help me figure this out."
And so it's a really concise list of, "Here are a lot of things that are problematic with
the theology and just the history of the church."
And so like, I didn't know Joseph Smith had 40 wives and the youngest one was 14 and
that, you know, I didn't know that their, like, the witnesses of the Mormon, like the

(01:04:37):
gold plates had only seen it with their spiritual eyes.
They'd never actually physically seen it.
And so there were a lot of these things that I just didn't know that it was like, "Oh my
God, and there are sources."
You can go out and follow the footnotes and it sources directly from the church, from
old documents.
I spent hundreds of hours probably researching Mormonism because my life came crashing down.

(01:05:02):
They call it the Dark Knight of the Soul.
And it is the grief and pain that you go through similar to when a loved one dies.
And so it was devastating because my entire worldview I figured out was based upon what
I saw as lies.
And then I realized I had some really shitty attitudes, like, especially towards like the LGBTQ

(01:05:26):
community because in Mormonism it is, you know, that love, it's a phrase that I hate,
I hate to sin love the sinner because I didn't give people a chance I didn't accept them
for who they were because I believe what they believe was a sin.
So after I got through all of these doctrinal things that it's like, "Oh my God, like this

(01:05:46):
is false, like this explains a lot."
And then I realized that I had based my worldview on these things and it just made a total
change.
And honestly it made me a much better person.
To actually, it's one of these things that the phrase, I don't know if you've ever heard
the phrase, there's no hate like Christian love.
Like, there are a lot of great people out there.

(01:06:09):
But they also can use these systems to perpetuate attitudes that discriminate against others,
to make others less than.
Which to an extent, how can you not feel that way if you think that you are 100% correct
in something that is for eternity?
Like, how do you not get a little arrogant?
In your beliefs towards others?
So even though I don't know, all of a sudden my whole world came crashing down and I understood

(01:06:34):
that like, "Oh my God, I have not been the best person I could have been."
And so it then just led to me like, "Well then what is right?
What is good?"
And that's kind of the journey I'm still on today.
Man, so do you think that maybe the people in the church sourd it more so than the faith

(01:06:55):
itself?
Not in my case, I actually had...
So Mormonism is built for people like me.
I am a straight white cisgender male who gets everything like, "I could have a priesthood,
I could go and I got to participate fully in the church."
And I had an awesome experience.
I never...
Even though like, yeah, people sat me down in the room and had the questions like, "Do you

(01:07:17):
masturbate?
Like, do you?"
But I had a great experience.
I never had anything negative.
I was never sexually abused.
I was...
I had fun in the church.
I loved it.
It was my friends.
It was my support system.
It was everything and it...
It was designed for someone like me.
And so one of the phrases...
Or one of the songs of the church, it's him.

(01:07:41):
One of the lines is, "Do what is right, let the consequence follow."
And unfortunately, Mormonism worked too well that once I saw through a lot of the bullshit
and the lies that are there to protect an organization that is just there for what I see
as power and money and control.

(01:08:02):
When I saw those bad fruits, I knew I had to do what was right and let the consequence
follow.
And for me, that was leaving that organization.
Holy shit.
But see, a lot of things, even with like the Christian Bible and stuff like that, it's
meant to be...
I think people get turned off with Jesus and all of this whenever they start looking at

(01:08:27):
it with kind of facts and scientific perspective, like an analytical mind.
For example, David was like a man after God's own heart, but he obviously was a lot of terrible
things like killing that woman's husband.

(01:08:47):
And so whenever you start to look at that, it's like, "Oh, this doesn't work."
This is like complete BS.
You mean this guy just parted the red sea like physics don't work like that, but...
Sorry.
But what the Bible and I'm guessing Mormon is the same thing, the book of Mormon, is it
preaches that you should follow by faith.

(01:09:08):
And that's a scary word, right?
Because you could say a lot of things follow by faith.
"Hey, follow me into this cave.
Just have faith.
I know what I'm doing."
Now you're dead.
But it never claims to be scientifically right that the followers of Christ are correct,
or perfect, or anything like that.

(01:09:30):
It just says, "You should have faith, and then your soul will be saved."
So it sounds like your main argument for leaving is more scientific and not faithful.
Do you feel like maybe this is...
You're just choosing the wrong path?
So it's a very nuanced and complex issue because also a lot of what I saw in the Bible,

(01:09:55):
and when you look at Jesus, Jesus was kind of a radical guy.
He was awesome.
He's a badass.
He was there.
He's like, "No, money is a bad thing."
A camel cannot fit through the eye of a needle, so will a rich man get into heaven.
That is so gangster, by the way.

(01:10:17):
That's something that Tupac was saying.
And he was with the drags of society.
He was with the people.
He was with the whores.
He was with the tax collectors.
You want to know another one where they were about to stone that woman.
He stands up and blocks her and he's like, "Hey, look, whoever he without sin casts the

(01:10:41):
first stone."
Could you imagine walking into a prison right now, but stop the execution.
Listen, if y'all have never done anything bad in your life, then step up.
You grab the needle.
What?
You would be all CNN.
Right?
He is just this dude who is like, he loved people.

(01:11:02):
He loved people for who they were, wanted them to do better, and to be their full potential.
He looked down on things like money, which the Mormon church has over $100 billion, a
drag and sword, that they have stored away and they created over 13 different shell corporations
to hide this money from the membership so that they would keep paying typing.

(01:11:25):
So they were fined by the SEC with Securities and Exchange Commission.
The largest fine that's ever been levied against a church, and it's only 5 million, which
is a drop in the bucket.
And so, but it's a lot of these different things that when you start to look at the organization
and then you look at the radicalism of Jesus, of love people, all of these different things,

(01:11:51):
it just didn't match up.
And so I think, because I fall in an anti-religious view in that I think a lot of shit has happened
in the name of God that is deplorable.
Take the Crusades, for example.
That has nothing to do with anyone who's alive today, but there can be a lot of bad things

(01:12:13):
that happen there.
And so what is important is I don't think there is any exactly right religion.
Now I think religion benefits a lot of people.
And as long as you're not harming other people, religion is great.
I mean, that's one of the things I've missed is community.
Like I now don't have anywhere near the community that I had before.
Like being Mormon, like it was great if I ever moved.

(01:12:35):
I could go and I knew there would be a ward.
There would be people who believed what I believed I would have a support group immediately
and all these really good things that the secular world just doesn't have an answer for.
Humans are kind of hardwired for religion and that's okay.
And so it's not necessarily like I think, like I am probably logical to a fault.

(01:12:58):
I don't think there's any way that all of these things have actually happened, but I'm
not going to knock anyone who has faith who is a good person.
It's when that faith gets turned towards something that begins to harm others.
That's where my problem is.
So what drew me out of the church just was that, hey, this is harming others.

(01:13:22):
That's not me.
That's not what I want to affiliate with.
And so my just my my morals, my moral compass of honesty and treating others well is what
drew me out.
Now, I think there's a lot that backs up why I made that choice scientifically and logically.
But I don't know if that's kind of the.

(01:13:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's almost, I feel like it's a game of telephone.
So you know, Jesus died on across 2,000 years ago, right?
A lot of the Bible is kind of formulated around then, the book of Mormon even a couple hundred
years ago.
And you know, they it's the same scripture kind of, right?
It's been translated to English, but it's it's a it gets watered down generation after

(01:14:11):
generation after generation.
And nowadays you see a lot of people even use the Bible.
I'm sure they do this with the book of Mormon as well to justify their evil actions.
And they'll twist stuff and you just you hit on such a damn good one, which is like people
don't want to talk about Joel Olstein, Closet Damiers, but Jesus was anti money.

(01:14:35):
And that's clear as day, by the way, like that is clear as day.
Jesus was broke.
His people were broke and they just went around helping people.
And now like the churches in a lot of ways is not doing that.
And a lot of churches are, but in a lot of ways, they're kind of not doing that.
And now are most public, religious figures or people like Joel Olstein or Kenneth Copeland,

(01:14:59):
who has a private jet and Joel Olstein has obviously had so much plastic surgery.
Oh my gosh.
And he's rich as hell.
And he won't he didn't even open his doors to let the people who were homeless from the
hurricane in and stuff like that.
And they see that and they say, you know what?
Fuck this Bible, fuck religion like this.
If this is what it is, then screw it.
But we've gotten so far away from what the original stuff was.

(01:15:26):
And like I can't blame people like you for saying, huh?
You know what?
The book of Mormon is based on this guy Jesus who said, hey, we need to fix stuff.
So let me look at this guy Jesus.
Oh wow, he was like in the beggars and trying to cure the blind and help people and stuff
like that, but our church is doing the opposite.

(01:15:50):
So I think you made a great decision.
Thank you.
And save me at least 10% of my income.
So, on a daily it's great.
Well, you know, another thing too.
And I've talked about this with a couple other people on this podcast, which is let's just
say there is a heaven or hell.
There's a good or an evil.

(01:16:11):
Let's say it's Jesus and the devil, whatever.
And we make a logical decision, hey, I don't want to go to hell.
This makes sense.
Nobody does, right?
So it's like, okay, how do I go to heaven?
Well now like what do you choose?
Which flavor ice cream is the right one?
Is it Mormon?
Is it Catholics?

(01:16:33):
Christians?
Baptists?
And this is daunting.
Oh, and by the way, if you choose the wrong one, you'll burn for eternity.
And like how, what advice would you give to a regular person who's like, hey man, hey
Carson, I really don't want to go to hell.
Like what do I need to do?
I mean, one fear based decisions usually aren't going to be the ones that are intuitive

(01:17:00):
to helping you.
So a fear of hell is, you know, is that going to lead you to make the right decision?
I think what I would recommend and I've turned into a bit of a hippie, you know, what I would
say is a bit of a hippie.
I really think Eastern religions like Buddhism and a lot of those have really good things
because they are wearing such as a me me me society.

(01:17:26):
American capitalism has led to people being like only in themselves.
Like if someone comes in as like, I am scared of hell, it's almost, you want to be like, well,
what is hell?
Why do you believe?
What makes you believe in hell?
It's what is it called?
Epistemology.
It's it's when you talk to people and you help them figure, you know, it's why do you believe

(01:17:47):
what you believe?
And when you start walking down that path of like, well, why do I believe in hell?
Well, because someone told me, well, you know, why is this book right?
But what makes this the authoritative figure that says that hell is a real thing?
How do I even know that hell is real?
Yeah.
When you, I mean, it's all these existential questions that have like humanity sense, you

(01:18:12):
know, we've always wanted to understand why we're here.
And I don't know that we ever will.
I think it's something that is big and scary and has led me to a lot of like, what do I believe?
And at least where I've settled for right now, and I think people need to be more open to
changing their minds because people will say, oh, you said one thing and now it's different.
Well, yeah, I have more information.

(01:18:34):
I'm going to learn more.
I'm going to change my mind.
I should insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same result.
Like, I need new information.
So right now I just say live, live life like you would want to be treated.
Life is short.
And if you're doing good things to people, if you are helping others, if you are furthering

(01:18:55):
what we see as right and not harming others, then what is there to worry about?
Either I die and there's nothing, okay?
Like go into sleep for a surgery or maybe there is heaven and hell.
And if the Christian, you know, the Christian concept of God of treating other people well,

(01:19:16):
if that's right, then I feel like I'm in the clear I've done the right thing.
Yeah.
God created me so that I like, I have to find the specific religion that is in one part
of the world.
And if I don't find that I'm going to hell, is that a God I want to spend eternity with?
That's acidine to me.
So really it's like life is just the golden rule.

(01:19:37):
Treat others well.
Treat others how you want to be treated because we're all just people trying to figure
this all out, trying to get through it and life is hard and where you can help people
ease their suffering, then you can't go wrong.
Being good is always good.
That is beautiful.

(01:19:58):
Carson, you are a beautiful soul and a very, very smart person.
And I think a great example.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Do you want to let people know where they can find you?
No, this is the only thing.
This is the first thing I've ever recorded.
So oh man, that is awesome.
That's how you know, by the way.

(01:20:18):
If anyone, that's how you know Carson is a good ass dude because news flash a little inside
baseball here.
People only go on podcasts to plug their shit and Carson.
Carson, by the way, you and the guy I did a podcast with who was in jail for 10 fucking years
and he was out for one week when I talked to him.

(01:20:40):
Only two people are like, no, they just wanted to talk.
Yeah, by the way, another inside baseball that I'm done.
This guy got out of jail 10 years for cooking meth and he doesn't have a lot of money.
He's in a halfway house, stuff like that.
And like, dude, thank you so much for coming on the podcast just for talking to me.
I just want to give you 100 bucks, man.

(01:21:03):
My next 100 bucks isn't going to break me and I wanted to give it to you because I think
you're a great person.
I want to help you, man.
And he said, absolutely not.
I refuse that.
Yo, there's good people in jail, man.
But also Carson, thank you for talking to me, dude.
You are a breath of fresh air, man.
I hope you have a great day.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Of course.

(01:21:23):
[MUSIC]
[MUSIC]

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