From Anxiety to Authentic Joy: A Christian Therapist Breaks Down Inside Out 2

Episode Transcript
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Quiana Hardy (00:00):
Foreign.

Pastor Brent McQuay (00:10):
Welcome to another episode of Between Sermons.
I'm your host, Brent. I am the
lead pastor at Disciples Church, if you
don't know me. And here we are
in between Sermons where we get to
kind of continue our conversation from our
Sunday message, turning the monologue that is
a sermon into hopefully, an uplifting man,
I can't talk today. An uplifting and

(00:31):
encouraging dialogue. A conversation almost like getting
a glimpse into what a small group
conversation around Sunday's message might look like.
And so in order to do that,
though, I need other people to talk
to instead of just you on the
camera. But today, we are blessed to
have Tiffany with us. Tiff, how you
doing?

Tiffany Hines (00:51):
I am doing well. Yeah, A little
tired, but it's Monday. The Monday scaries.
But I am right on host mode.
I just was doing the what Jennifer
Hudson hallway disco line mindset. So I'm
ready, but I'm good. I'm happy to
be here. I'm always happy when I

(01:12):
get the chance to co host. So.
Love Tyisha and I'm thankful she asked.

Very cool. Well, I'm glad that you're
here to hang out.

Thank you.

I feel like you're the professional podcaster
in our group, and so, you know,
when you come in, you just. You
elevate our.

Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate that.
So, yeah, you know that I had
a podcast a while back, but it's
been a while, so this helps kind
of like take the. The dust off.
So. But thank you. And then we
have and wanted to introduce the lovely

(01:49):
Kiana Hardy with us today. As we
get into today, last yesterday, we ended
our at the Movies series and it
was with the. The show was inside
out to the movie. And so Kiana
Hardy is our. She's looking like. Is
our director of counseling here. She's a

(02:10):
licensed therapist. And Kiana, she leads a
team and several teams here to really
help our church with lay counseling in
a lot of different ways and support
support groups, care groups, and then offering
just some regular lay counseling. Correct. And
so thank you for being on the

(02:31):
show today.

Thank you for having me.

And so, yeah, I'd love to just
kind of get into the movie. So
Sunday was my second time seeing it.
I went and saw it in the
movies when it first came out. I
had not seen Inside out the first
one. Okay. But so people tell me,
like, don't worry, like, you'll be just
fine, like, seeing the second one. So
I would love to just even what

(02:55):
was a highlight from you from the
movie overall. And then for you and
was There anything specific in the movie
that was talked about yesterday that, like,
it's kind of gone with you for
the rest of the day or for
the rest of yesterday?

Is that for me or.

Let's start with.

Sure. Yeah, I can always jump in.
So actually this is one of the,
the few movies we've done this this
year that I think everybody knows about
at least probably most people have seen.
Especially if you have kids. Like, if
you have kids. Kind of hard to
avoid. Inside out or Inside out too.
For me, personally, I love the movie.
I. I think it, the. The humor

(03:33):
is great. Obviously we're all laughing at
all the clips yesterday. But what I
love about the movie is just the
personification of emotions. Right. Because it gives,
I don't know, an easier grasp even
for it. Like, I feel like Inside
out is not even geared towards kids
at all. Like it's an animated movie,
but it's dealing with such complex emotions

(03:54):
that I think that it's actually the
parents that are like, oh, and as
the parents of a. Of two teenagers
now that are going through all of
the. That, you know, the console in
their mind went from this big to
that big.

Yeah.

If you've seen the movie, you understand,
but yeah. So just being able to
personify those complex emotions, being able to
understand them better. Also, there's something that
I love about the movie in the
whole memory Balls and how there's an
emotion attached to them, but there's also,
there's a complexity in emotion attached to
them. So, like, sometimes this memory is

(04:30):
blue because it's just this one emotion.
Sometimes it's blue mixed with red and
maybe a touch of green and it's
like, oh, okay. So like, like we
can have different emotions attached to different
moments in our life. And sometimes it's
like a good emotion. We're like happy
about this emotion and it's also something
we're not so happy about all blended
together. And that's. I think that's what

(04:51):
makes, like, the mental health conversation so
fascinating for me because there's just such
a complexity to it and then leave
it to, you know, an animated movie
to take this super complex idea and
concept and just make it so easy
to grasp.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think Disney and Pixar have done
a really good job of not just
with Inside Out, Inside out too, but
Soul just to really kind of give
voice to what we're experiencing on inside.
And so for me, I liked Inside
out too, but of course I'm a
therapist, so I, I would. Right. I

(05:28):
actually took my kid like, but I
don't think he was as interested as
I was. I was the one sitting
there taking notes, but he was just,
like, used.

To make it, like, socially acceptable.

Exactly.

If it was just you by yourself
sitting in the theater, it might have
been a little creepy.

It probably would have. But, yeah, he
was just there for the popcorn, even
when I rewatched it. Because usually when
we do an at the Movie series,
I watch the movie beforehand because I'm
afraid of spoiler. So I don't want
to get.

You guys really do.

I never want to get right. I
don't want to get to church and
see this movie that I'd never seen
before and be like, oh, man, I
want to watch that and then find
out that I've already gotten the whole
premise of it, and now I don't
want to watch it anymore. So I
am a little bit of a nerd.
So I pre watch. And so Saturday
night, I watched it again, and I

(06:27):
do enjoy Inside out because of it.
Really kind of giving us this insight.
Look to a middle schooler, a junior
high schooler's brain, because it is very
complex, and there are lots of emotions
that are tied to it. I have
a tween who will be turning 12

(06:48):
in a couple of months, and the
level of crying that happens in the
morning, I'm just like, your.

Emotional regulation is so off as a
therapist, son.

Can we please just take it down
a notch? What do you mean you
can't find Marshall from Paw Patrol? That
was this morning's. And I mean, like,
full waterworks. And it's like, dude, what
do you. I mean, you feel deeply
about this toy that you will forget
in 30 minutes? And just looking at
what puberty does to us, not just

(07:24):
our bodies physically, but to our psyche
and to our minds, and just the
introduction of all these new feelings and
emotions. I thought that they did an
amazing job with it, so I was
very excited. I did see them multiple
colors, too. Now it's like, oh, that's
really kind of unique because I feel

(07:45):
like that's subtle enough that not everybody
would catch it, but it was actually
very impactful because we very rarely just
feel one thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Is that why you have the rainbow
straw? That's going to.

No, I'm just a Starbucks nerd.

I just thought maybe, like, just, like,
all the emotions. All the emotions.

I wish it was that deep, but
really, it's just. It's my Starbucks straw.

I heard a joke one time that
I love. I decided to throw this
in there that Disney is just on
this, like, feelings kick, like, emotions, where
they're like, okay, so, like, what if
animals had feelings?

Yeah.

And then they're like, what if cars
had feelings? What if toys had feelings?
And they're like, what if our feelings
had feelings? Like, I mean, that explains,
like, the last 20 years of Disney
films.

It really does. Yeah. As a matter
of fact, I think in grad school,
we did a psychological assessment of the
movie Cars.

Okay.

Yeah. Enlightening McQueen and his narcissistic personality
disorder. Absolutely. Yeah. Come on. And we
did that whole thing, but, yeah, I
think that that was. I think Inside
out really does an amazing job of
just giving us the language to talk

(09:01):
about. And what I liked about this
Inside out over the last one was
that it showed that everybody has the
same thing. So you got to see
it from the parents perspective, from her
friend's perspectives, from, like, random people's perspectives.
Because I think that sometimes, especially when
you are a middle schooler and a
high schooler, your world is very much.

(09:22):
You, like, you only see, like, this
part of your world, and this allow
for kids to be like, oh, wait,
dad has the same emotions going on
in their head. And mom has that
as well. Like, oh, wow, we're not
that different.

Yeah.

You know, I love about that, too,
though, is the. The. I guess the.
The idea that each person had more
of a driving emotion, though, or was
like. Like, the primary emotion for the
main character is joy.

Yeah.

But then when you cut to the
dad, the guy sitting in the cockpit
is anger. And then, like. And, like,
you go to mom, and I think
it was sadness. And it's like. And
it's. When interacting with people, like, you
do run across, like, you. You do
have an emotion that seems to be
driving more than the others.

That's very true.

And everybody's at the table. Everybody's working
in this, but it's like you kind
of give leeway to that one a
little bit more.

I agree, but I actually didn't pay
attention to that. That was a really
good. That's a good observation. Now I'm
gonna go back and watch it again.

She's gonna nerd out some more. But
I think something was. That was so
great from yesterday's message. And tying into
that is that with the kind of,
like, in your feels, it shows one
that God gives us emotion. Like, he's.
He created emotions, and we have the
capacity to feel. And that wasn't, like,

(10:44):
on accident, but he also kind of
has, like, in his word, hey, this
is how you Deal with it. And
this is how you deal with anxiety.
And not that he gave us anxiety
on purpose, but just being fallen. There's
this thing and, and so how to
deal like with our feelings. So I

(11:04):
agree like when it comes to it
being I feel they intentionally targeted for
parents because it gives an open table
whether to talk to kids or to
talk to your friends, whomever. But it
was definitely set up to have conversation,
which is great that this is a
conversational podcast because then it's not like

(11:26):
a one sided thing. And so I
was looking on ChatGPT because I wanted
to know, okay, give me some credible
information about when it comes to statistics.
So with anxiety disorders, which I would
love to get into between anxiety and
anxiety disorders with you being a licensed

(11:47):
therapist here, between elementary kids to then
junior high and high school kids and
then adults. And so the US survey
from 2016 to 2019, ages 16 to
11, about 10% of children age 13
to 17 have been diagnosed with an

(12:09):
anxiety disorder at some point or in
78 may have current just regular anxiety.
And then you go to middle school
and between the ages of 13 and
18 that is 31.9 that will have
some type of at some point severe

(12:29):
anxiety and experience severe anxiety and some
type of impairment. Impairment 8.3%. And then
adults is 19. And so to think
about middle school in high school being
such a high percentage of anxiety, it
just says a lot. I know that

(12:50):
all of us are old, but I
remember being very anxious as a kid
going to school for all, all whatever
reason it could have been, whether it
is bullying, whether it is not feeling
confident a lot. It's last this past
weekend just a deterrent. I went to
my high school reunion and so it's

(13:11):
crazy.

She was trying not to mention that
part. It's like the five year reunion.
What are you talking about?

But 20 years, wow. And so I
didn't go to the 10, but I
was very intentional in going to my
20th. And some people didn't understand why.
They're like, do you really talk to
people there? I'm like, no, I haven't
seen people or anything. But I knew
like my journey of where I've been
for the last 20 years. And I
remember significantly how grade school and elementary

(13:43):
school and some of high school really
drove anxiety and depression and that kind
of. So to be. I'm like, I
know that I'm in such a different
place that I want to go and
see these people. That some of them
really had a negative impact in my
life. And I'm free from that. And

(14:03):
so to see all these different people
kind of conversing and you're having these
different memories and there was one specific
memory like with this one guy, but
it was fine. But to know what
that was at that age. Elementary school,
elementary school, junior high, high school. To
then go to 20 year anniversary and

(14:24):
see all those reunion, to see that
change in growth. It brought me that
reminder of where I was at the
time and where I am now. So
I'm not surprised to see with junior
highs and high schools how high the
percentage is. So one thing that I
believe it was Pastor Chris that she

(14:46):
said when it comes up with. And
even with anxiety, what was her. It
was, her name was Anxiety in the
movie of that. She's like, no, I'm,
I'm here to protect. Yeah, I want
to protect her. I want to protect
her. When it actually like revealed control.
And so wanted to speak to just
a little bit of what you guys

(15:06):
experience. What, what you would say with
anxiety. What kind of. I would even
say presence or spirit that maybe you
kind of experience a hu. It may
hover over you when it comes to.
You notice this pattern of anxiety and
maybe not knowing it's anxiety, but you
see these different elements of you trying

(15:27):
to like be in charge or take
over. Maybe like Andrew, like he, he
feels all over the place like, so
it's about like paw patrol, but it's
not about paw patrol, paw patrol patrol.
It's more he feels out of control
of his emotions. And so if you
guys want to speak a little bit
to, to that of anxiety in correlation

(15:49):
to control.

So it's very interesting because Manny Arango
talked about this in faith, in first
love. And he explained that anxiety is
chaos. Like it's just living in this
constant state of chaos. And the best
thing to cure anxiety is to bring
order into the situation. And that was
such a great.

It was message.

I was just like, wow. And because
my son is single handedly helping and
fueling the algorithm, we've watched that sermon,
you know, over and over again to
the point that we all can quote
it. Way to go, Andrew. All right.
But I think that it's true. I
think that sometimes, especially when we're talking

(16:32):
about, because Riley the carrot here in
Inside out is that middle school age,
of course our focus is going to
be on them. But we, we put
a lot of pressure on our kids.
And yes, school does it, society does
it and our kids walk into this

(16:53):
space where they have this high expectation
put on them and they're not allowed
to make too many mistakes. So for
them, controlling their environment is very essential.
But then you go into middle school
and you can't control the fact that
you just got a new zit. Yeah,
okay. And you can't control that this

(17:13):
person over here is going to make
fun of you or they're going to
take pictures of you. And you can't
control that that boy doesn't really want
to be your friend anymore. Or you
can't control that you can't get on
this team. And it creates this almost
like, I love when they showed anxiety
spinning out, because I feel like that's

(17:33):
what's happening internally. And it's just like
we're just spinning, and we're like. Like,
I can't control it. And our kids
start to act out, they start to
cry, they start to gripe. They go
into silent mode. That ennui, you know,

(17:54):
like that whole I could not be
bothered, but really they could. Like, it's
just a defense mechanism for them. And
I really feel like, as parents, you
kind of feel you don't have control
as well, because I can't control what
you're feeling, and you won't necessarily always
give voice to what you're feeling. So

(18:16):
I feel out of control now. And
I tell people, like when I do
the anxiety care group that sometimes anxiety
can be contagious.

Oh, yes.

You might not be anxious, but if
you're hanging around someone who's anxious, all
of a sudden you're anxious, you're like,
wait, why am I feeling like this?
Why am I holding onto this chair
so tight? Like, why am I doing
these. These mannerisms? And, you know, it's
just something that you kind of pick
up. And if you are race in

(18:50):
a household with a lot of anxiety,
whether it is diagnosable anxiety or if
it's just, like, situational, you start to
pick up those traits as well. So
you might not actually have what we
would clinically diagnose as anxiety, but you
could have aspects of anxiety in certain

(19:12):
situations. And so just being aware of
what we're putting out there. You know,
I think, like you said, there's a
driving force behind all of our emotions
and trying to make sure that our
driving force is more of a calmer,
like, type of driving force. Like, Joy

(19:32):
is great, and she is my favorite.

Did you say that she's your.

She is my profile photo and Disney.
I wish I could pull off blue
hair. And that's just a sidebar. But
God had been working with me for
the last maybe Seven, eight years on
what joy is. And I think that's

(20:00):
the one thing that Disney actually got
wrong, is that how they depicted joy
was really almost happiness. And we know
that there's a difference between joy and
happiness because joy is contentment. Right. And
joy's never content.

No, she's not.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, she's.

She's.

She's a horrible representation of the true
emotion.

Exactly. And so. But I. You know,
when God had been working with me
and then consequently with my team, we
just kind of went on this. This
journey of what is joy and how
to convey joy and how to be
content in whatever situation God has us
in, you know, and how, you know,

(20:42):
that happiness is fleeting. I could be
happy now, you know, because my Starbucks
was great. They made it. Right. But
when it's gone, am I still happy?

Right.

You know, so, you know, we. We've
kind of been exploring this for a
few years. And so I gave them
all, like, a couple years ago, a
while ago, I gave them all the
little placards. It just says, choose joy.
Because I believe that we can choose
that and we can walk in a
place of joy. Because as Christians, we

(21:12):
know that our heavenly Father is the
provider of that joy. And so no
matter what the day brings, whether it's
a good day or a bad day,
whether you can find your paw patrol
toys or whether you can. God is
still in control, and we trust that
he is there, and he is going

(21:32):
to provide us with what we need.
And so with that, we can have
joy because we're covered. And so, you
know, I think trying to share that
and to convey that to a middle
schooler or to a junior high student
might be a little bit harder, but
because there are these outside influences, and

(21:53):
that. That too, in the movie, when
they show how Family town was so
much smaller and got darker all of
a sudden, while Friend town was just
vibrant.

Man, I felt that as the father
of a high schooler, man, I was
like, I think his family town is
like, I know. And it used to
be his whole world.

Exactly.

But it's so hard to process.

Exactly. And I think I haven't gotten
there yet. I'm fearing it, you know,
but it really does. Like, with kids,
like, their friend group becomes their whole
world. And how people see them and
how people engage with them is so

(22:39):
essential. But it was for us as
well.

Absolutely.

You know, I don't think. And I'm
not gonna fully date myself.

Well, I've already exposed myself. Let's all
go around the room and Tell our
ages.

I will just say this.

What high school reunion are you at?

I think it was just our 30th.

Nice, nice. So, yeah, a blessing. You
know what I mean? Yeah, I'm being
silly, but you know, it's a blessing.
Yeah, yeah.

And it was, it was a lot
of us. We ended up. Yeah. Because
I went to crete. So our 30
year reunion was at Scoremani's and you
know. Yeah, I know, right. And it
was less people there than it was
at the 25. But I think because
we had the 25 and then the
30 people were like, okay, I saw
these people already. I don't need to

(23:31):
do this for another 10 years. But
yeah, but you know, I felt like
that pressure while it was still pressure
on us. I think today's kids have
even more pressure because I am fully
dating myself. Computers and the Internet was
still kind of new. So we, you

(23:53):
know, we had MySpace, we didn't have
Snapchat, and we didn't have Instagram and
TikTok and people just doing gifts and
means of us.

You had to choose like your five,
like top friends. It was like, man,
number six. Hate it for you, bro.

Right. We didn't have a computer at
the house. So like, what was I
doing with MySpace? So, you know, I
was like, I don't have MySpace, so
whatever. But it wasn't as much pressure
as it is today.

That's different.

It is so different. And when bullies
were bullying me in the fifth grade,
when I got on the school bus
and got home, I had no problems.
When they weren't calling me, that's like
no one was texting me, you know,
And I had at least a good
12 hours of reprieve to kind of

(24:48):
reset. And now it is 24 acts,
24 hour access to our kids. And
it's unfair. And that's like. I think
when I look at the Internet as
being just not the best thing, you
know, it has its place, but I

(25:09):
feel like it's just unfair to our
kids that they don't get a reprieve.
And so that's why we end up
seeing kids going into this deep depression
or, you know, becoming suicidal or having
these, these major emotions because there is
no reprieve for them. And, you know,
it's something as a parent you're always

(25:30):
on guard for. But as our world
shrinks and there's. And their friends ex,
you know, expands, you know, you try
to get those little nuggets in as
you can because they don't come to
us as often as we would want
them to. So. But and I think
that it happens like when we become

(25:51):
adults, that same access kind of pivots.
We kind of invite that access at
that point. And so like when we
do the anxiety group, the care group,
which we will be doing in September,
big announcement.

So if you have anxiety, just hold
on to it for another month.

No, wait, no, we'll be coming back
in September.

Not the right advice, but not at
all.

Right. But I think for adults, we
invited in with a 24 hour news
cycle. And so usually when we start
the anxiety care group, the first thing
I have them do is delete all
those apps off their phone. Turn off
all your notifications.

Yes.

If it's not for your security alarm
or you know, for your email, like
for work, you know, or something that
you absolutely need, turn off those notifications
because it creates. We're creating anxiety.

Right.

We're inviting it in. Like, come on
in. You know, nobody needs the news
24 hours a day. No, you don't.
Especially today because it's all negative.

Yeah.

There are no feel good stories really.
So, you know, just as adults, we
have to make choices and being aware
that our children are also watching us.
Even though they don't act like they're
watching us, they are watching us and
they're looking for us to like take
the lead. So. Yeah. Did I answer

(27:24):
your question?

Yeah.

So. So something you talked about at
the very beginning, you connected to that
Manny Orango message. It was so good.
And I'm, I'm just curious, like, can
we get into that a little bit
more of. So if, if what we
need, if, if anxiety is chaos and
we need to bring order, what does
that actually look like? Practically, like how
do we bring order? So like, like
I can jump in first. So we,

(27:46):
we've talked about pretty openly my, my
social anxiety issues and self diagnosed but.
But confirmed by others.

Well, Kiana, you're right here. Do you
want to.

Kiana was actually one of the first
to confirm.

I sit down on my couch.

I can't remember, was it your copy
of the DSM 5 or was it
Stacy's? I borrowed one.

It might as Stacey's, I think.

And I'm like reading through anxieties and
different things and I get to social
anxiety. I'm like, this sounds way too
like, like what is this? And I
went to you and you're just like,
yeah, obviously like, thanks.

All right.

Okay. But like, so, so like what,
what I've. I've learned in my own
life, dealing with dealing with that is
the more I prepare, the easier it
is to deal with. So for me,
like, where that comes across, because I'm
a preacher, like, my job is to
stand on a stage and talk to
a crowd. That for somebody with social

(28:44):
anxiety, like, that is the worst thing
ever. Like, that's just dumb. Why would
you do that? And so I over
prepare to stand on the stage. So
I do manuscript sermon notes, so I
know every word that's going to come
out of my mouth. I do multiple,
I guess you'd call them rehearsals. You

(29:05):
know, I preach the message, like right
now it's between three and five times
before I ever set foot on a
stage, minimum. And then there's some messages
where I'm just not feeling like I
don't have that peace. Like I got
that anxiety still building. And so I'll
increase from there.

Yeah.

And I've talked to other ministers, other
preachers, and I've looked at like the
amount of time they invest in sermons
and I'm like, man, I wish, like,
I got a guy that he's like,
yeah, like eight hours max. And I'm
like, I'm like 30 to 60. How
do you do eight hours? Like, what
is this? And it just feels so
unfair. But that's, that's how I bring

(29:41):
order to the chaos that's in my
heart, my mind, this, this anxiety that's
building. And so the more I can
prepare myself in advance, the better I
feel going into those moments, the easier
that is for me. But I'm curious
from, you know, you deal with this
on a more professional basis than I
do. So how. How do you help
other people find order in the chaos?

So I think that that's one. Thank
you for being transparent because I think
some people would not know how to
articulate that. Right. And to your defense
about. I think according to barna group,
about 40% of pastors experience high anxiety

(30:21):
and. Or depression.

Yeah.

Right. And so you're not alone in
this journey. Right. And while that helps
put order, I would also caution to
give yourself some grace in that, in
that time, because it can also lead
to ocd, like some kind of. Some

(30:43):
type of obsessive compulsive disorder, which is
also a form of anxiety.

Never. Because you were in the children's
ministry and you saw me walk into
rooms and go, why is there a
blue chair at the yellow table?

I mean, and. And you know, and
also, you know, in full disclosure, you
know, my mom lived for years with
some type of anxiety. And you know,
we had been telling her for a
while, like, you probably should go talk
to someone, you know, and that came
a little too late because, you know,
now her anxiety is, you know, steeped

(31:23):
in the dementia part, but, you know,
very much needing order. Yeah. Right. And
so while order brings peace of mind,
it can also bring about obsessive components,
too, because when you don't have.

The order, you're freaking out to try
and get the order.

Right. So my question probably would be
back to you, like, what happens if
something comes up? What happens if the
Holy Spirit says, you know, I think
I want you to speak on this
now. Does it freak you out, or.

Yeah, absolutely.

So.

So full transparency mode. That is one
of the main reasons why we started
the podcast. So the podcast is unscripted,
and so this forces me into situations
where I just have to talk.

Yeah.

And while the social anxiety isn't as
high because it's just the three of
us sitting here, two other people on
the other side, like, knowing that this
is viewed by however many number of
people online, it still kind of creates
that anxiety. So this is a little
bit of an exercise in helping Brent
overcome things. So thanks for being my
therapist. I guess I don't know what
to call that. And then missions is

(32:33):
where that comes into play a lot
as well, because I'll. I'll arrive in
a place on missions, and they'll have
told me in advance, hey, I want
you to speak three times. Here's the
subject matter. I'll prepare three messages. I
arrive, and they're like, oh, yeah, by
the way, could you also. And could
you also. And could you also? And
could you also? And could you also.
And by the way, that whole plan
that we had sent to you, we
changed our minds. And so we're actually

(32:55):
gonna be talking about this, so whatever
you have to share on that subject
would be great. And so, yeah, there
are those moments where I'm being, like,
kicked out of the nest, like, forced
out of my comfort zone. And I
think that the. The more I get
reps doing that, I think the. The
better I'm able to process. And then
ultimately, it's the Holy Spirit, like, yeah,

(33:17):
ultimately it's. It's one of those where
it's like, God, I. I need your
help. Yeah, I had a message here
recently where we had my grandmother's funeral
service in Michigan on Wednesday, drove up
there Tuesday, had the service, drove back
the next day. Then it was 4th
of July. Then Saturday, we had another

(33:38):
service for my grandmother here. And then
we had family over, and I was
preaching on Sunday morning. And so usually
I'm spending, you know, at least eight
hours on Saturday working on stuff, and
I didn't have that time. And so
Sunday morning came around, and I was
like, God, you're gonna. You're gonna have
to do something here because I. I
don't have the peace that I need.

Yeah.

And we got through it.

Yeah. Right.

I don't know if anybody noticed that
it was different than anything.

We didn't even notice. So we didn't
notice. But I think that you're right.
Like, there are things that we can
do. Right. Like, those are, you know,
like, if we're. If we're anxious about
a test, we study.

Right?

Right. We study, and then we just
let it go. Like, you know, we
can't be so obsessive. Right. About everything.
And I love. There's part in the
movie where anxiety. Who's going to tell
riley to bring 25 pencils to the
test?

Right.

You know, like, you know, there was
a. There's a sincerity there to anxiety.
The protection mode in her. In her
desire to bring some type of control
to Riley's life. And so, you know,
do you need 25 pencils? Probably not.

(34:51):
Three might do it. Three might suffice
in a pencil sharpener because, you know,
things happen.

Someone asked me for a pencil.

That's why you have three.

Right. But the thing is, like. But
if you thought that way, it's like,
no, 25. Because then if. What if
they need to.

What if the whole class.

20 people in my class. Clearly, I
need 25.

Exactly. But, you know, when we're thinking
about that, like, when we're thinking about
the things that are causing anxiety in
our life, it's the same way we
deal with just about any other emotion.
We compare it to the truth. What
is the truth of the situation? Have
I ever broken 25 pencils in a
test? Have more than one person asked
me for a pencil to borrow at

(35:32):
the test? Like, let's just think about
what is the truth of what's happening
right now. And if it's not true,
then it's probably not something that we
need to obsess about. Right. And I
think that's actually where the enemy kind
of gets on our shoulder and. And

(35:53):
kind of creates situational anxiety in that
moment where he's constantly telling you all
these. These things that could happen. And
I think one of the books we
use for our care group is Max
Lucado's Anxious for Nothing. And he talks
about anxiety being this trepidation. Right. And

(36:16):
it's this part of our lives where
it's, yes, we're afraid of snakes, but
anxiety takes it to another level. It's
like, I can't go outside because there
could be a snake out there somewhere.
Right. And so we. We need to
learn how to take that back a
notch, you know, and allow for us

(36:37):
to temper that with truth. Yes. There
are probably snakes outside. Have I seen
a snake in my yard? No. The
chances of me actually seeing a snake
in my yard are probably nil. What
can I do in order, just in
case a snake comes out? Right. I

(36:58):
know that I can run fast or
I know that I have a stick,
or, you know, it could be one
of those garden snakes. Right. It's probably
not that big of a deal. Right.
So, like, when we can temper our
anxiety with truth. Yeah. Yeah. It allows
for that chaos to subside a little.

I like that. So how do you.
How do you feel? So is it
AA that does the Serenity Prayer? How
do you feel about that? Because that
always has stood out to me. Like,
yeah, I steal all kinds of stuff
from. From 12 step programs. Because it's
brilliant.

It really is.

It's so great. But. So Serenity Prayer,
I'll probably butcher it, but it's. Give
me the serenity to accept the things
I cannot change, the courage to change
things I can, and the wisdom to
know the difference.

Yes.

Is that it?

Yes.

Yeah, that's what I thought. So, like,
for, for me, like, I. I love
that, that process, because that's what I
have to remind myself on a regular
basis, that there are some things that
I can't do anything about. So.

Yeah.

Holy spirit. I can't. I can't. I
can't do anyway, this. Like, we're. We're
walking through that in our family. Like,
there's some things in our family right
now, like, we just can't change them.

Yeah.

Like, so God help me in this,
but there are things that we can
change. There are things that we can
affect. And so help me to do
that. And ultimately I need to know
which is which.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because, like, my wife
and I, you know, we're struggling with
some stuff, and. And I'm. I'm kind
of watching her not always know the
difference, and so then I'm trying to
come in and help her see the
difference, but then I don't always know
the difference. And so, like, we're both
just looking at each other like, I
don't know, man.

So.

Thoughts?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's. That's the fun
part about marriage is that we probably
are not both spiraling at the same
time. So you have some little cases
where.

They, once in a while there's a.

Little bit too much crossover and we're.

Like, hold on, we're all going down.
No.

So as a, as a licensed therapist
and also a Christian, how do you
help Christians, even from our space, deal
and talk about those kind of things
when it comes to anxiety and being
a Christian and living. So that when
those situations come that he's talking about,
I, I'm sure a, a, a, a

(39:15):
therapist that may be outside of Christianity,
same tools, but also maybe not bringing,
say, scripture or those kind of things.
So how are you able to help
Christians with, you know, the things going
on clinically, but also biblical truth to
help families when they're experiencing that kind

(39:35):
of stuff?

Well, I think that the cool thing
about the Word of God is that
he gives us examples. So first of
all, all of our emotions come from
him, right? So even, even the one
that people really struggle with that whole
anger, right. When we do the anxiety
groups, we bring up the fact that
God's rage and his anger is mentioned

(39:57):
over 300 times in the Old Testament,
right? So we get it from a,
we get it from Him. Like he,
but there's, there's, he got mad. He
turned over tables. He had righteous anger.
Right. And it's nothing wrong with being
angry. As a matter of fact, the
Bible tells us you can be angry,
it's just how you deal with it.
Right? Well, the same thing with anxiety.

(40:18):
Paul talks about anxiety a lot. David
talks about anxiety a lot. Like we
get in the Old Testament and the
New, and every single time they tell
us how to deal with it. You
know, Philippians 4, 48 is not just
a common scripture, Right. It really is

(40:40):
telling you how to deal with your
anxiety. And the first thing he says
is rejoice in the Lord. And he
says it again. He's like, wait, just
in case you missed it, rejoice in
the Lord always. And again, I say
rejoice. That means that even if the
world is chaotic around, you find joy

(41:04):
in your Savior. Yeah, right. Because things
are just going to happen. Life is
always going to life. Right. It's just
going to do that. And so how
do you navigate that in the midst
of it?

I love that.

So, and I think that once we
break it, that's the reason why I
love using Max Lucado's book for that,
because he does break down Philippians and
it allows for people to take it
Scripture by scripture and apply it immediately
to their lives. And, you know, it's
just so important that we give the
word of God the do that is

(41:40):
that it needs. Right. He gave us
resources.

Resources, medicine.

He gave us everything. And then if
that's not enough for you, he gave
you therapists. I actually have a shirt
that says it's okay to have Jesus
in a therapist. Because it is. Right?
It's not just because I need some
work. It is, you know, it is.
Okay. The same way he equipped doctors
with understanding of science and knowledge to

(42:10):
take care of that tumor, he also
equipped therapists with understanding of the human
brain and our minds in order to
help you walk through these hard situations.

Yeah.

And there are different. There's. So I
know you mentioned before, like, what's the
difference between this and that?

Yes.

So I think that everybody has some
level of anxiety at some point in
their lives, right?

The things to say, oh, no, I'm.

So glad that Mama Chris said that
yesterday. Because that whole blessed and highly
favored thing really gets under my skin.

Is not authentic.

It's.

But the Bible says be anxious for
nothing. So I'm just following scripture.

Right now.

The funny thing is, the person that
says that is the one dealing with
anxiety.

No, they're the ones bottling up their
emotions. They're not dealing with it.

I mean, like, be anxious for nothing
is from Paul. It's Paul's writing. Yeah,
Paul deals with anxiety. He's. He's encouraging
himself. You know, Donna Lawrence said, you
know, speak over yourself. Encourage yourself, you
know, in the Lord. In the Lord.
And that's what he was doing. And

(43:23):
so when you look at that, it's
like, okay, okay. So, you know, God
has equipped us, but there is this,
this anxiety we have from day to
day that is not debilitating. When your
anxiety becomes debilitating, then you have an
anxiety disorder. Right? So when your anxiety

(43:44):
impacts your well being for an extended
period of time, usually it's on a
two week basis. Right. Every day consistently
for two weeks. Then you probably have
anxiety disorder. You need to be treated
and it's okay to have that treatment
with medication. There are so many different
medications, right? People don't want to talk
about medication because I just know Jesus,

(44:06):
okay? Like I said, Jesus equipped us
with doctors, with therapists, with all kinds
of scientists that have discovered ways not
on their own, because all knowledge really
does. He gives us what we need.
And they have these great things that

(44:27):
help with the chemical imbalance that we
experience in our brain in order to
help us Quiet those voices so that
we can actually be productive members of
society. And that doesn't make us weak.
That doesn't make us weak in our
faith. It actually makes us strong in
our faith because we, I, we identify
the fact that we need something and

(44:50):
God has provided something for us. So
we have wisdom enough to say, I'm
going to take that for as long
as I need to in order to
accomplish what I need to have. It's
the enemy that tells us you don't
need that because he doesn't want you
clear headed.

Right.

He wants you sitting in the corner
in your room crying all hours of
the day and night, not going out,
not seeing your friends. He wants that
because if you're there, that means you
can't be possibly, you know, spreading the
word of God.

Right.

You know, so whenever your anxiety becomes
that thing that hinders you from moving
forward, that's really when you probably need
to really talk to a professional therapist
to address those issues and possibly a
psychiatrist in order to help with medication

(45:39):
management just to make sure you can
get over this next hump. And that's
pretty much the only thing. It's the
same thing with depression. We all get
sad, we all have losses and things
that happen in our life. But when
that sadness turns into clinical depression where
you can't get yourself out of bed

(46:00):
for days at a time. Yeah. Then
it's time to talk to someone. Yeah,
yeah.

So, and I think sometimes when people
hear that Christian or not Christian medicine,
you correlate it to long term. And
so like oh no, yeah, medication that
means that I'm about to be, be
on something for the long. So I
would say you saying if it's been

(46:27):
more than two weeks, you didn't say
years. And that, that means that to,
to me hearing that it's not that
it has to be long term in
reference to medic medication.

No, I was saying if you're, if
your anxiety is lasting more than two
weeks now, the medication you might be
on for a couple of months. Right.

So I'm saying, I'm sorry if I
said it wrong. So one identifying of
like hey, if you're feeling and having
this debilitating thing experience for two weeks,
then it can be clinical. Someone would
not even think that quick. Oh my
gosh, I've gotten into a space that
is, it is a disorder because disorder
feels like that's, that's always a lifetime,

(47:09):
you know, kind of thing. And for
some people it could be that they're
on medication for the rest of their
lives. But I feel like Christians and
people, just humans, we tend to. Oh,
no, this is, this is the long
stretch for me. And as a. I
bind that in the name of Jesus.
But, like, do you know how common

(47:29):
it could be for a situation and
circumstance that you can be debilitated for
just two weeks? And that is a
sign. Hey, you need to have some,
someone step in to, to give you
some help. Go, go maybe to a
therapist or maybe they may suggest a
psychiatrist. And that doesn't mean forever. It's.
It could be just what you're going
through right now needs some care. And

(47:51):
it doesn't mean long, but don't avoid
it.

Yeah, yeah, so I think we do.
We avoid. We avoid a lot. And,
and I don't always say jump straight
to medication either. No, most talk therapists
don't advise that. Right, let's sit down.
Let's talk about this first. Like, and
if we see that it's not making
a lot of change, okay, let's add
medication to that. But we're still talking,

(48:15):
we're still working to kind of address
whatever it's causing this with the hopes
that you don't have to be on
this forever. Right. It's the same way
somebody with diabetes, you go to the
doctor, you know, at first they might
say, okay, let's change your workout routine.
Let's change how you're eating. Let's get
you where the nutritionist, they don't auto

(48:37):
always go straight to insulin. You know,
they start off like, okay, well, talk
to me about what you're eating, what
are you consuming, how often are you
moving? So you're doing talk therapy with
your physician. Right. And they're trying to
figure out what they can do to
help you before they jump all the
way to insulin. And sometimes you can

(48:59):
be on insulin and you can still
come off of it. Yeah, right. You
just need that to help get over
the hump. And then once your weight
goes down or your habits change, they
might decrease the insulin or they might
change the regimen, and you can instantly
come off of it, you know, with
them tapering it down a little bit
at a time. So I think of

(49:20):
it as the same way. Most medications
are not forever, you know, and nor
do we want them to be forever.
We want you to be able to
stand on your own. But sometimes we
just need help, and it's okay to
ask for help. So, you know, but
you're right, there are always going to

(49:41):
be somebody that's going to say, you
know, I'm just going to trust in
God. And it's like, okay, But I
will.

Say so after the message. I was
by the Hope Cafe and I was
talking to this elderly woman, and she
was saying how, like, I know that
people can say, you know, blessed and
highly favored. And she was like, but
I'm telling you, when I say it,
I mean it. She's like, I can't
always share my story to everyone, but
she was just like, I almost died.
Like, she was walking through. So she

(50:08):
was like, not that I don't go
through things she said, but I authentically
mean it. And so I think it
goes back to even when you were
quoting Scott scripture in Philippians about rejoicing
in the Lord. And so because she
could rejoice and the Lord could be
genuine in her, blessed and highly favored

(50:29):
and not. She's like, it's not cliche
for me because she's been able to
see God's goodness and rejoice from that
place. And it's hard to rejoice from
that true place when you're not being
honest with what you've been through, those
kind of things.

So, yeah, yeah, that's somebody who could
probably turn around and say, you know,
the joy of the Lord has been
my strength.

Yes.

Right. Like, I can stand on that.
I know the joy of the Lord
is my strength because within my own
merit, I am weak. Yeah, I. I
have no strength. But his joy has
become my strength.

I would love to even hear more
conversation and talk. So. Because we talk
as Christians about joy and that it
not being, say, like a feeling, but
contentment. How could, like, even a teenager.
Because I don't hear most teens talk
about joy. How can they even know
how to walk in that. That space?

(51:30):
Because we are like, this message in
this movie is so much about feels.
And of course, like you said, joy
in the movie is not really showing,
you know, what the true definition of
it is. And so how can someone
young or even an adult even know
that they're walking in it? Because it's

(51:50):
not at all. Would you say at
all a feeling like happiness has. That
is a feeling. But if we're going
scripture is joy, actually it's more of
a state of being.

It's.

And it's more of a. So then
how can someone identify that place and
stay in that place and stop associating
it with feeling? Because I think we
have just always grown up joy. And
that's how I present posture of joy
when it's really. No, it is a
state of being that is steady. How

(52:23):
does the Kid learn contentment. I feel
like that's a, that's a something an
adult, you know what I mean?

Right.

And struggle in that practice. But how
could a teenager even learn how to
be content?

Yeah. You know, I think it's a
hard question to answer because it's a
hard question for us, even as adults,
to grasp. Right. And like I said,
me and my team have been unpacking
this for years. It was, it was,

(52:59):
it, it had to be maybe more
than eight years ago when God put
that on my heart and has been
something that I felt like, constantly need
to be visited. Because as we see
people as individual or in sessions or
like support groups, we find people that
don't understand what that looks like. How

(53:21):
can I be in a state of
being of joy when I'm going through
a divorce or when I find out
that my loved one has passed, or
when I lost my job? Like, how
do I find joy in that? Right.
And, you know, I think that it

(53:42):
is something that we kind of have
to kind of help people find out
how it works for them. And so
that's a great time about, like, the
great thing about being with somebody in
conversation is that you can, yes, you
can use scripture, but I, not that
therapist is always trying to throw up
scripture because I understand that everybody's not

(54:04):
at the same space, but there are
concepts of scripture that you can allude
to that don't have to be scripture
and verse. Right. And so, you know,
that's the reason why I always say,
like, okay, talk to me about what
actually is the truth. Like, what is
truth? Like, what do you know is
true in this situation? You know, so

(54:24):
that we can bring it back. Not,
yes, we know that truth is the
word of God. Right. When I'm struggling,
you know, when I'm, when I'm hurting,
it's hard to access that truth scripturally
because it becomes cliche. Right. And we
don't want to. Like, I, I, you

(54:44):
know, I, I always tell people, like,
when you have someone that's grieving, try
to avoid those cliches, you know, because
it's not helpful. It's just not helpful.
It's actually very infuriating. It's very infuriating
when someone is going through deep sadness

(55:05):
to tell them that God wouldn't put
more on them than they could bear.
What. First of all, as we learned
when we did this, the sermon series,
it's not even true. It's not even
biblical. Like, you know, but we, we
tend to, like, douse people with these
things. Because one, we're very uncomfortable with

(55:26):
silence and just being present. And I
love you said that actually at your
grandparents celebration of life, that it's ministry
of presence that actually means the most.
And. And my grief support groups, we
talk about that all the time. That
it really is just people showing up
and being present, not, you know, just

(55:47):
not trying to make it all better,
but just. I'm gonna sit here with
you in your pain. Yeah.

Just be there.

Yeah. Which is something I think that
our Jewish brothers and sisters really have
a different understanding of. You know, when
they sit shiva and they just sit
in a space with someone for seven
days in their pain and allow them
to feel what they need to feel
without trying to make it all better.

Job's friends didn't mess up until they
started talk.

Exactly. They were fine at first. If
they could have just been quiet and
in what happened when they started talking,
then Job started talking and he messed
up too.

Now God's got to correct.

I know. He's like, wait, wait, wait,
hold up a second. But I think
it's just really important to just allow
people to explore what that looks like
for them. Because me choosing joy might
look different than you choosing joy.

Me.

You know, people might say, oh, you're
always smiling. Well, I don't know if
smiling is the definition of joy. Right.
I can smile and be psychotic.

Yeah.

I mean, Jeff, you know, there are.

People smiling, walking down.

Bundy smiled through his entire court case.
Like, I don't know.

Smiling. Not a good indication.

It's not a good indication. But, you
know, is there something about you that
exudes joy? You know, no matter what's
going on, you know, I still believe
that my God is in control and
that he loves me and I'm his
favorite.

He told me so.

It's a sign of joy. It's like,
it's a peace. It's an inner peace.
And it is that piece that surpasses
all understanding. Right. And we can adapt
that into our lives. And just if
we can. If we can figure out
a way to articulate that or have
a teenager or middle schooler figure out
how to articulate that to themselves and

(57:59):
speak to themselves and encourage themselves, because
they're not going to receive it from
us.

Yeah.

Because we old, we don't understand, you
know, but if they can learn how
to access it for themselves, or if
their friends can access it and they
can see it, they can see it
modeled through somebody that looks like them,
then we might actually have some success.

You know, my friend, she sent me
this message. And as we were talking,
I'm like, maybe this helps identify. So
she sent me this message from Dr.
Anita Phillips, and she was preaching and
something that she said, I'm like, I'm
taking this as a life quote to
walk by. Is that she said when

(58:46):
she started to go from what if
to even if, she said that mindset
changed everything for her and was saying
it'll change and transform your life of.
Because what if puts you in a
place. And Pastor Chris said that most
of those what ifs don't even happen.

Exactly.

But even if, even, like, even with
one of our famous stories in Daniel
and them being in the fiery furnace
and saying, you know, but even if
God does not deliver. And so I'm
like, oh, if I was to try
and articulate, maybe that's a space of
joy, too, is to figure out the

(59:25):
what if. But even if it happens
because I've had to stop. Well, even
if. How bad would it be?

Yes.

Could I still see the good. Is
it that bad?

Right.

If it happened.

Right.

Or if, even if it never happened,
the thing that, like, I wanted, would
I be okay?

Yes, yes, yes.

Take away the what if.

Exactly. And I think that if we
can live in that. That place, that
even if God doesn't provide what I
want him to provide, is he still
God? Is he still great? And if
he is that, then I can rest

(01:00:09):
assured that I'm his and I can
be at peace with that. You know,
I tell married couples all the time.
My husband and I have been married
for 20 years. And if. Even if
things don't work out, even if he

(01:00:31):
is insane enough to leave.

Tiffany Hines (01:00:33):
All this goodness because you're a baddie,
anyone that can't see, they just don't
know.

Pastor Brent McQuay (01:00:42):
But I have no idea where this
conversation's going.

You know, a little light and, you
know.

Quiana Hardy (01:00:47):
Right. But I would tell, you know,
like, you know, even if that happens,
is my God still on the throne,
am I still his child? Is he
still his child? Right. Am I going
to survive?

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yes. One decision, one situation
is not going to take you out.
Five decisions, five bad situations will not
take you out unless you let it.
Stop giving power to the enemy. He

(01:01:25):
don't have that kind of power over
me because my joy doesn't come from
him. And as the old church would
say, this joy that I have, the
world didn't give it, and the world
can't take it away.

Come on.

So what are we doing? So that's
kind of how I look at it.
It's like, I love my husband. I
know he loves me. But in that
moment, he wakes up one day and
he chooses not to love me. Is
Kiana still okay? And the answer to
that is yes, because my father loves

(01:01:58):
me whether I get up and love
him today or not. Yep. He already
made the choice to love me. He
died on a cross for me. So
I can see stand in that and
know that I'm going to be all
right.

Yep.

Even if, even if that was good.

So I think this, this whole joy
thing, I think you nailed it. At
the very beginning we said, you know,
it's a choice, right? Like, we have
to actually choose joy. And I think
in order to help people choose joy,
I think we need to remember perspective
and gratitude. And so in these situations,
perspective. Sometimes it's like that old adage

(01:02:36):
of don't let a bad moment create
a bad day. And it's, it's like
this idea of like, we had just
this one thing that didn't go the
way we wanted to. Now we're, It's
Heyman. Like, I'm hyper focused, like the
king is praising me. This is great,
but I can't even enjoy any of
it because of that one. Mordecai. And
it's, it's just the, the reality of,
of so many of us. Like, we

(01:02:57):
can read that and laugh and then
go out and do the exact same
thing.

Yeah.

And it's like, man, the one thing
went wrong. And I remember, man, being
a teenager and like, the one wrong
thing could have been the dumbest thing
ever.

Yeah.

Like that had no matter, like, into
the grand scheme of life, but man,
it would just ruin the entire day.

Yeah.

And as adults, I think we're, we're
guilty of the same thing. And so
that, I think that's where perspective comes
in. Like, just remembering, like, don't, don't
turn mountains out of molehills. And, and
just remembering that, hey, this, this bad
moment doesn't mean it was a bad
day.

Yeah.

Keep those things in perspective. God is
bigger than all of the boogeymen and
all of the other stuff. And so
keeping that perspective, but also just practicing
gratitude. I think what's so hard is
for somebody in the middle of a
devastating moment to have joy.

I get that.

But at some point when we develop
this practice of gratitude, that every day
we're waking up with something to be
thankful for. I think then even in
the middle of a devastating situation, we've
pre programmed ourselves to be looking for
the thing that we can be grateful
for that, hey, this devastating thing happened,
but there's still breath in my lungs.

Yeah.

Like, there's still a sunrise is coming
up tomorrow morning. Like, they're still. Even
in the pain, even in the anxiety,
even in all that stuff, we can
still have joy even in those moments
when we got the right perspective and
we have gratitude. And sometimes for the
believer, that perspective, that gratitude needs to
just be as simple as, life on

(01:04:33):
earth is short, life in eternity is
very long. And so if I can
get through 60 years of pain and
suffering, I have eternity to look forward
to without any of that.

Yeah.

And if that can't give you, like,
if that perspective doesn't do something for
a believer, I think you probably do
need to talk to a therapist and
get on some medication, because that really
should be the driving force for us,
that we're keeping these things in perspective.
We're choosing joy by being grateful.

Yeah. There's actually a word art, I
guess it is, I guess, a canvas
art I have for my mom's room,
and it says, I know I'm going
to butcher it, but it says, let
go of what was, hope for what

(01:05:26):
is, and have faith what will become.
Right. And I got that. And I
was explaining to one of her friends
the other day that I got it
because a lot of people were stuck
in the. What was. Yeah. And who
she was before the multiple strokes and
before the dementia. And they were really

(01:05:48):
struggling, but it wasn't really a struggle.
It was really. It was an internal
struggle for them. Yeah. They were struggling
with how they felt about the changes
that were. And I, too, had to
have that moment. Right. Like, okay, she's
no longer the mom I grew up
with. She's a different version of that

(01:06:10):
woman. So how do I deal with
what is. How do I continue to
walk through what currently is instead of
constantly like, well, you used to do
this and you used to do that.
What is. What does it help?

Because there's nothing you can do to
make that happen again.

You can't bring it back. You can't.
And so what? Instead of staying back
there, we can stay right here in
the now and find contentment. And the
fact that she's here and, no, she's
not functioning the way we would want
her to function, but she's still here,

(01:06:48):
and we have faith to what will
be right. We don't know what God's
gonna do. God might not do anything
on this side of heaven, and we
still have to be okay with that,
you know? And I know you guys
experience the same Thing with your grandmother,
it's just, you know, there's a, there's
an evolution and that disease is just
horrendous, first of all.

Yeah. Walking it through with a family
like a loved one is just. I
don't think there's a worse disease out
there. It just.

Yes.

It, it robs you of a person
before you were actually robbed of them.

Yeah. Yeah. So you start grieving. Yeah,
yeah. You. You start grieving like early,
early. And it's like. Okay, because you're
grieving them daily, almost like for something
new. Something new is lost. And you
know, as you're walking through that, how

(01:07:39):
do you find joy? And as a
Christian, as a woman of faith, I
find joy in knowing that one, even
if he never heals her, I know
that she will be in her new
body in heaven, new mind with a
new mind, and I know where she's

(01:08:00):
going. Right. So I have this hope,
this, this hope of a future that
kind of gives me solace. Right. And
it just kind of gives me this
internal peace so that I can be
in those spaces with her and not
be anxious or overwhelmed. Yeah. By the

(01:08:23):
situation. But I can just see it
for what it is. Okay. This is
who she is today. And it's okay.

I'm walking through this with somebody right
now that they are hyper focused on
what they have lost. And it's not
just like looking at the past, but
it's looking at the present of like,
I'm being robbed of this opportunity because
of this situation. And I'm trying to
help them and it's difficult, but trying
to help them. Not focus on what's

(01:08:52):
been robbed of you, but like what
you still have.

Yeah.

Because there, there are. Even though it's
like, okay, but this isn't what I
wanted. Okay. Can you change that?

No.

So let's, let's have the serenity to
accept the things we cannot change. And
let's actually be grateful for the things
that you do have.

Yeah.

Even in this moment. Because so much
more could have been taken.

Absolutely.

And yes, you're being robbed of this
memory or this moment or this opportunity,
but you still have this opportunity over
here. And don't ignore the fact that
there's something else you can be doing
and there's something else good that you
can focus on just because you're grieving
what is never going to happen.

Yeah. Yeah.

But it's hard.

Yeah, it is hard. And a lot
of times that's hard because we can't
see past ourselves. Yes. We have a
hard time Seeing. Seeing what God sees,
you know, and that's the uniqueness of
God. He can see things from such
a high up position. We don't even
know what he's working out, you know,

(01:09:54):
and we see that, like with relationships
and stuff like that, and have a
couple of friends who are not married
and like, you know, I didn't God
send my man, where's my Boaz? You
know, and it's like, I don't know.
I don't know if I found Boaz.
I don't know. I didn't find Boaz.
I mean, I found Daniel. Right? You
know, but, you know, just ex, you

(01:10:16):
know, letting them have that moment to
grieve what they wanted, but to see
it as also a blessing, right? You
know, Paul even talks about that, you
know, that, you know, it's good to,
you know, go ahead, get married, but
if you're not, then you can be,
you know, you can do all this
stuff for Christ and you can do
all this wonderful stuff, right? And it's

(01:10:38):
like, okay. And, you know, God could
have been saving you from a really
horrible relationship, you know, I mean, Garth
Brooks said, you know, sometimes I thank
God for unanswered prayers.

So you missed me on that one.

Yeah.

Come on.

I don't know if I've ever heard
anything from Garth Brooks.

Are you serious?

Maybe probably in a movie or something,
who knows?

Oh, my God, I got the AA
quotes. I ain't got the.

That is my jam. I love me
some Garth Brooks.

I mean, you did go to Crete.

I did go to Crete.

I did. Did they have tractor day
at Crete?

No, no, they did not. But we
did release a pig in the school
once.

Before we go to our final words,
if you guys have anything to say
before that. Kiana. Is there any, like,
quick exercise that you could say to,
like, our listeners or viewers that they
can do to practice when they're feeling
anxiety happen in their body?

So we do do something that we
call grounding. And I. I wish that
they had touched that in the movie,
like when Riley was having her panic
attack, because that's what she was having.
So she was having an anxiety attack,
a panic attack. And sometimes we just
have to. We feel so chaotic at

(01:12:02):
that moment that we have to kind
of find a way to ground ourselves.
So, you know, that could be something
as simple as holding on to something
to just kind of be present and
then just kind of counting backwards or
counting forwards, whatever you want to do.
Taking deep breaths. I never say go
down low because I feel like you're

(01:12:25):
cutting off your air supply. Your air
supply. When you do that, when you
bend over, like, kind of what Riley
was doing in the movie, she was
just slumped over. You don't allow for
air to travel. You cut off your
breathing, which you're already hyperventilating, so why
would you want to do that? So
kind of just sitting back and just
allowing your air to come through and
just taking deep breaths are rule in

(01:12:46):
sports.

Like, you'd be out of breath and
so you'd naturally, like, hunch over.

Yeah.

And maybe we get smacked and yelled
at. Stand up straight.

Exactly.

You can't breathe when you're doing that.
But I can't breathe.

Like, you're talking. You can't break.

But, yeah. So, like, and for me,
like, even when I feel like those
moments where I'm a little anxious, sometimes
I go outside. Like, I can. Like,
if I'm working on something, I'm caught.
It's causing me a lot of stress
or anxiety or worry. I might go
outside, I might take off my shoes
or walk in the grass or even
on the sidewalk. It's very grounding to

(01:13:22):
fill the earth behind, you know, underneath
you. Um, you know, just to kind
of just settle myself and just allow
for air to pass through. I am
really big on, like, taking, like, nature
walks, and I used to do it
a lot when I was in community
mental health. I would just take my
clients and we would just walk around

(01:13:42):
the neighborhood, especially my teens, because they
just needed that fresh air and just
an open space. Because sometimes being in
an office feels very too clinical, I
think, for them. So I would walk
with some clients, you know, around, and,
you know, sometimes we might, you know,

(01:14:03):
take off our. They thought that was
weird. Like, take off your shoes, put
your feet in the grass. We're like,
ew. I was like, come on, I'm
doing it. My toes are done. You
know, and, you know, they will do
it. And you're like, okay, it was
not bad. It wasn't that bad.

We got two dogs. I don't recommend
walking barefoot in the grass.

Probably not in your grass.

I need to walk on creeps.

Right, Right. So just finding things like
that to just kind of ground you,
to kind of recenter you. Yeah. Music
does that too. You know, even if
you're having a day, like, if you're
having, like, a big test, like, for
some of our kids, you know, you're

(01:14:44):
having a big test, there's a lot
of stress around that test. You know,
you don't wake up with music that
doesn't empower your spirit, you know, so,
you know, put it on something that
brings joy to your lives. Things that
hype you up, that gets you going.
Right? You know, that might not be
the day for. I don't know. I

(01:15:07):
don't even know what to even think
of, but maybe you need some Christian
hip hop. Maybe you need some Forest
Frank to kind of, you know, get
you going so you can.

You know, it's hard to have a
bad day while listening to Forest Frank.

This is true. So you know that
Force Frank. But you don't know a
Garth Brooks song?

Yes, because I'm a Christian.

Hello. Are you trying to say Garth
Brooks is not a Christian?

Hey, look, Force Frank, God's got his
back. That's all I gotta say.

He's viral on ig, so I know.
That's how I know his song.

Oh.

And all the little dances that, yeah.
Are doing over him. But I. I
get it.

Okay. Yeah. So, you know, just kind
of using music. Music is great to
kind of get our energy up to
change our moods. You know, it's the
reason why people say, if you want
to be sad, listen to a sad
song. You know, they have breakup songs
just so you can get it cried
out. Right. So, you know, just thinking

(01:16:02):
of different ways to kind of. And.
And have plans in place beforehand. And
that's something that a therapist would work
with a client with is having a
plan of action in place. How do
I deal with it when I have.
When I feel in this, you know,
showing them what's happening in their body.
Like, how do you know that you're
about to have a moment of real

(01:16:23):
anxiety? What do you feel like? What
does it feel like in your body?
And being able to articulate that. And
then, okay, when I feel that, what
can I do? It's the same thing
with anger. You know, people were like,
I just got angry. No, you actually
didn't. You know, it didn't just happen.
You know, you felt that. You felt
it in your toes, you felt it

(01:16:43):
in your body. You felt it in
your. The heat that was rising from
the inside going out. And so when
that happens, what can you do? You
know, what can you do? You have
a plan of action. I'm gonna go
outside. I'm gonna go for a walk.
Okay. I'm gonna go and scream into
a pillow. Okay. You know, what do
you need to do in order to
deal with that? So having a plan

(01:17:04):
in place before, beforehand, I, like, that
is really essential. It's just like cpr.
If you never took CPR you don't
know how to use cpr. Right. So
you have to constantly re. You know,
go to CPR classes over and over
again. Because when the. When the situation
occurs, it has to be instant, you

(01:17:26):
know, not like, oh, where's my sheet?
Like, what do I do? Okay, I
pump. You know, it's. No, it should
be natural. So you should be practicing
this on a regular basis, even when
you're not anxious.

That's good. Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

No problem.

Any closing words from you before we
end?

Man, we could have this conversation for
the next, like, 12 hours and still
it would be helpful, I think, and
fresh. There's something about this intersection between
faith and mental health that I think
needs to be explored more, talked about
more, I think. I love that our
church doesn't have this stigma of, like,

(01:18:09):
the whole mental health is like a.
I don't know, a dirty word or
something in church, because, like, I just
have Jesus. It's like, I don't know,
sometimes this is a stupid analogy, but
maybe this will help somebody that's, like,
afraid to step into an office with
a mental health professional. You know, the
Bible says that God is our living

(01:18:31):
bread. There is fruit that grows naturally
on a tree that you just go
walk over and pick up and eat.
Awesome. There's also restaurants with chefs that
can put together amazing meals. So why
wouldn't you go to the restaurant? Yeah,
like, God created all this. He prepared
all of it. Same thing for a
therapist, same thing for a psychologist. They're

(01:18:52):
just using the tools that God created.
And so if you reject that side,
then I hope I never see you
in a restaurant because you're a hypocrite
for rejecting the one and not the
other. I know it's a dumb analogy,
but I hope that somebody is gonna
sit here going, oh, man. Yeah, that
is kind of silly of me to
reject something that God has put together.
So, yeah, I hope that helps somebody.
But, yeah, anxiety, it's. It's a very

(01:19:13):
real emotion, man. The movie preaches bottling
up emotions. Not good. Just kicking thoughts
to the back of your mind just
to ignore. Doesn't really help. Yeah, emotions
are complex. We are complex individuals. Paul
goes on many times to talk about
how, you know, there's this war happening

(01:19:34):
inside of them, and so that's happening
in all of us. So. But if
you need help, get help.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Do you mind closing us in, like
a word of prayer? And I've never
really done this before on a show,
but could you pray for us?

Okay, about anxiety O pray about anxiety.

I'm sorry. Yes.

That's great. Heavenly Father. Lord God, we
thank you, Lord God, because you are
a God who sees all, knows all,
who is all. Lord God, we thank
you that you have seen fit fit
to equip your children with all that
they need in order to have a
successful life on this side of heaven.

(01:20:17):
Lord God, we ask for those who
are struggling with anxiety or depression, Lord
God, wherever they are in their lives,
Lord God, that you speak to them
directly. Lord God, that you give them
the comfort and the peace in their
minds and their thoughts. Lord God, that
you are able to equip them with
people around them that can help them
to grow in this area, to work

(01:20:38):
through. Through this area and to become
better versions of themselves, Lord God. And
those who are struggling with this idea
of, of accepting help or asking for
help, Lord God, we ask for you
to tear down that wall, that stronghold,
whatever it is, Lord God, that's hindering
them from experiencing true growth in you.

(01:21:00):
Lord God, we ask for you to
eliminate it, Lord God, so that they
can truly find that freedom that you
have equipped your saints to have. Lord
God, we thank you for everything that
you do for us through us, with
us. Lord God, we appreciate your presence
and we look forward to finding true

(01:21:22):
joy and contentment in you. In Jesus
name, amen.

Amen. That was beautiful.

Thank you, Keanu.

I appreciate that. Thank you, Tiff, for
running this conversation.

Oh, J. Hook. Tyra Banks.

From Tyra Banks to Garth Brooks, this
has been a weird day. But hey,
so next steps for you, if, if
this is an area where you are
struggling, we do have some resources here
at the church to help you. We've
got support groups that are starting up
again soon, some that are still ongoing,
I believe, but we got a bunch
of groups that, that might be benefit

(01:21:58):
to you. Excuse me. But beyond that,
I just really encourage you to talk
with somebody, whether that's a professional therapist
or just a friend, somebody in the
church that you just trust that you
know is following Jesus. Just don't, don't
wear these things all on your own.
We're actually here to carry one another's

(01:22:20):
burdens. And so if you've got a
burden, let us help carry it. And
then I hope to see you next
week, same time, same place. We're going
to be jumping into a brand new
series called called where we are looking
at how God has called you. There's
actually a calling on your life. And
so we're actually be looking at some
Old Testament characters who were called by

(01:22:40):
God and how their calling may fit
into what God's calling you to and
what we can learn from their lives
to apply to our own. So it's
going to be an awesome series. We're
kicking that off next week. Hope you'll
be a part of it. Until then,
God bless. Love you.

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