Redefining Church: The Journey to Becoming Disciples Church

Episode Transcript
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Pastor Carlton McCarthy (00:00):
7, 6, 5, 4.

Brent McQuay (00:08):
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode
of Between Sermons. My name is Brent,
and for the next three weeks, I
am the lead pastor of Christian Life
Center. And I don't say that because
I'm going somewhere.

Ti’heasha Beasley (00:20):
Wow.

I say that because. Spoiler alert, I
got nervous.

Right here. We're doing it here.

We announced yesterday that we are actually
changing the name of our ministry ministry
from Christian Life center to Disciples Church.
So for the next couple of weeks,
I get to introduce myself as the
lead pastor of Christian Life center, and
then I get to introduce myself as
the lead pastor of Disciples Church. And
we want to talk a lot about
that today because it is huge news

(00:48):
for us. We're a ministry of almost
35 years, and to make that kind
of change is pretty drastic. But we.
We do it because of this Holy
Spirit drive and conviction. And so I
can't wait to tell you more about
that. But first. Hey, Ty'eisha. How you
doing?

Yes, I am. I am doing great.

Are you good? Cause last time we
talked, you and I. Yes.

We had some tension. I mean, it
was.

What did I miss?

You missed a lot. I was almost
not in this seat anymore today.

Not true at all. Unless you had
removed yourself. But I like disagreement.

It's good. It's healthy. You do okay.

Yeah, why not?

One of you all didn't believe in
speaking in tongues or something. Like, what
happened?

It was all of it. I don't
remember what we did.

What did we fight about?

You don't even remember what the.

Oh, I think it's because you said
that God wanted you to sin, and
I was like, absolutely not. Goodness.

I did not say, should we sin
so grace may abound. Certainly not.

First of all, this is an attack,
and I don't appreciate it. I did
not say that. But I have been
think playing it over and over in
my head since that last. You know.

Okay. So outside of podcast.

Outside of podcast, it's been in my
head, and I've been bugging David about
it. But anyway, that's not why we're
here. We're here because we have amazing
news and amazing things to talk about.
Yesterday, you revealed the name of our
new amazing church. The direction we're going.
Disciples Church.

Woo, woo, woo.

Can we get, like, some drum rolls
from. There you go. Thank you. And
I think we are all sound effects
board. I know sound effects. I think
we're all just on tan from that
announcement. And so that's probably why I'm
all like. Because I have so many
things to discuss. And to talk about.
Why are you saying right like that?
Like, I'm. I'm not all.

No, you're right. You know, I think,
you know, because staff, we are working
so hard to get to that moment.

Yes.

And so we have kind of like
an energy drain.

Yes.

But the. What made it so exciting
was the congregation was so excited that
it kind of, you know, rejuvenize all
of us in the same time. I
think that was awesome.

That's a. That's good observation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So while we're. While you're speaking, we're
going to introduce you, Pastor Carlson. You
are no stranger to the show, so
welcome. Thank you for joining this conversation.
You are not our first choice, but
you are the best choice.

Leftovers. Leftovers. The beating.

I know.

That's so sad that you would even,
like, throw them under the bus like.

That in front of everybody.

Carlton, you're always my first choice.

Well, I had to mess with you
a little bit, but, no, you are
a good choice for this conversation. We
were thinking about.

That's why I was picked first. Right.
Because that was a good choice.

Actually, our first choice, to be fair,
was Pastor Soul.

Yeah. Okay.

Of course. See, there you go.

It was like Pastor Asa or Pastor
Jason.

But I think Carlton is the perfect
guest for today because you were the
first staff member to get brought into
this conversation.

There you go.

So I was like. You were there
at the beginning.

Okay, so how did that. Before we
jump into the message, how did that
go? You. You came to Carlton and
told him, and what was his response?

Yeah, so. So technically, it was. It
was Carlton and Asa.

Okay.

We're in a meeting, and we. We
meet every week, and it's. It. We
call it a finance meeting. I think
we talk about finances for about five
minutes, and then we meet for about
three hours.

Wow.

Just to talk about everything that's going
right and everything that's going wrong and
how we can fix that aren't right.
And it's. It's a. It's a great
meeting because it gives us a place
where we can really just kind of
plan for the future and fix things
that are needed fixing. And so it
was actually, it was at that meeting
that my wife and I, we were

(04:43):
like, all right, y'all have some stuff,
but we got something really big we
need to talk about. So, yeah, we
tried to, like, rush through the first
part of the meeting, and then I
got into. All right, so I'm feeling
this conviction of holy spirit. So. And
I've been talking about it, and Praying
about it for a while now, but
we want to bring you into this
conversation. And I was like, guys, how

(05:03):
would you feel? And this is crazy
because we're almost 35 years into this,
but how would you guys feel if
we were to change the name of
the church? And Carlton, I think the
very first thing out of his mouth
was to Disciples Church.

Yes.

Wait, like, literally, before they told you
the name, you just guessed? Well, not
guess. Clearly, that was holy.

No, well, no. Well, we could say
it was the Holy Spirit, but I
think I was just keen in on
Brent's direction and sermons and discussions and
heart.

Yeah, we've been talking about discipleship, so
a couple years.

And discipleship was your word of the
year in 2023? I think it was.

Yeah.

So it was just like. And I.
I kind of followed you with that
word of the year for that year.
So it was, you know, we could
say the Holy Spirit.

So you were being decided.

A little obvious, right?

From my vantage point, Yeah, I think
it was kind of. It was similar
to, like. I talked to several people
after the announcement yesterday that were, like,
halfway through, I knew what the announcement
was going to be. It was like,
he's talking about this thing so much.
Yeah, it's got to be the thing.
Like, so I think that it was
just people got a. People got 35
minutes of what I've been doing with

(06:17):
Carlton and the team for two years
now.

Got it.

And so I think at that point,
it was just kind of like the
obvious. Like, well, duh.

And I think what really made it
stick for me is I asked you,
I said, is there anything that anyone
could tell you that would change your
mind? And you said, no. So at
that point, it's like, well, then we're
sold here. This is what it's gonna
be. It.

Carlton was about to tell me all
this why we shouldn't. He's like, is
anything gonna convince you?

No, no, I wasn't gonna tell you
anything. But to just know how deeply
invested you were in this. Like, how
much of a call from God was
this in your life? And when you
responded that way, I'm like, oh, okay,
then this is certainly from God, and
this is the direction that we're going
in, so we're all invested. Yeah.

Yeah, that's. That was. That was a
cool moment.

Yeah.

I'll honestly say, like, being in the
office with just you and Asa, both
of you guys, the, like, the way
you responded, it was. It was so
quick to be like, let's do it.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, is it hard?
Is it going to cost a lot
of money? Is it going to be
scary on the way? Yes. All right,
let's do it.

Let's do it. Are there a lot
of fleshly reasons why this is a
horrible idea, but we feel like the
Holy Spirit's telling us to do it.

Could we lose people? Yeah, Then we.
Then we have to do it.

Is that the criteria? If you're going
to upset people with this decision, it's
probably a good decision.

Oh, my gosh. It was a great
decision. Just from someone, you know, walking
the journey and just like you said,
knowing Pastor Brent's heart, I mean, it's
just been bleeding out of your pores
since I've known you. And so it
was just the right direction to go.
So what did you think of the
sermon yesterday? I feel like you did
a great job unfolding the vision of

(08:04):
Disciples Church with the message. But before
I give my feedback or input, like,
what did you think of the message?

The setup? I think you would have
had people running through the wall. Like,
it was so empowering that we all
were ready to do whatever you were
gonna say next. And thank God it
was just a name change. I think
everyone was so much on the edge
of their seat because of the content,

(08:32):
because of us wanting to be more
than Christian and being more like Jesus,
even if it's the hardest thing that
we need to do in our lives.
We were so ready to go with
whatever came next that you're just glad.

I didn't say, all right, now everybody
pull out your checkbook.

A name change is almost relief, you
know, for a lot of people. You
know, it was just like the. But
the setup and how Christian was used
as a derogatory term. The origin of
it. How many times Disciples used in
the New Testament. Yeah, like, it was
just brilliant. Like, the setup was so
there. You had our hearts.

That, for me, like, that was the
thing in, like, preparation for this. Like,
that was the thing that hit me
so hard. And this isn't new for
me. Like, I preached a version of
this message years ago, and we can
talk about that and how this has
been a message of mine for a
while. But when I found, you know,
it's only three times in the Bible
that the word Christian is used. And

(09:31):
even that first time that I preached
this message, I didn't actually look up
how many times Disciple was used. I
just knew it was used a lot
more than just three.

Right.

But when I finally actually took the
time, 261 times disciple is used Now,
a few of those. Like, it talks
about John's disciples, and, like, it uses
disciple in, like, a very generic term.
So 261 times it's used in the
ESV, because that's the. The translation I
use most often. 230 something. I don't

(10:00):
even know the exact number. 230 plus
times it's specifically about the people following
Jesus. So it was like, all right,
so we got three, and we got
230 plus.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

I think this is the thing we're
supposed to be.

Yeah.

And. And I. I guess I should
clarify for people because I had a
few people like, I'll never call myself
a Christian again. I'm like, okay, that's.
That's.

I was gonna say, what do we
do with this white Christian? Do we
throw it in the garbage or change
religion?

I don't think you need to do
that. I don't think you need to
do that when you're filling out the
government forms and it asks for religious
background. Disciple. I quit. No, no, no.
Christian is not a bad word. I
still identify as a Christian, but I
think that disciple is the way we
quantify that. And so we can say,

(10:51):
yeah, I'm a Christian. Here's the kind
of Christian I am. I'm a Christian
that actually is being discipled by Jesus.
I am. He is the master. I'm
the servant. He is the teacher. I'm
the student. I am his apprentice.

Right?

And so that's. For me, like, that
when I was. I was watching, man,
YouTube is so dangerous. The fact that
you're probably watching this on YouTube right
now. But, like, I literally, like, somebody
was arguing that they. They were a
Christian and they were going through all
the reasons why they're Christian. And then,
like, it got into, like, their belief
in Jesus, and they're like, well, you
know, I think that he was probably

(11:26):
not a real person historically.

Get out of here.

And I'm just like, his name is.

In the title of identifier.

Like, how can you claim to be
a Christian but not believe in Jesus?

Right?

And I think that was one of
those moments where I'm like, man, the
21st century is weird. Like, it's weird
that you can claim Christianity and believe
literally whatever you want.

Yeah.

And still be. You know, I'm a
Christian. And so, I don't know, maybe
I spend too much time on apologetics
and arguments of different religions and different
things. But it's like, man, I just
keep coming back to, Christians are weird.
Disciples are Also weird, but in a
different way, I think. So if I

(12:14):
could, like, I want to take you
back to where this all started, because
it actually started in 2003, which is
a really long time ago.

You were a baby into it.

I'm trying to be a math.

Like, you're just 18 years old.

Okay.

Yeah. So it started when I was
18. I went into an internship. We've
talked about it before a few times
called 24 7. It was in Colorado
Springs, and it was insane, intense. Like,
offshore. We probably have, like, whole episodes
where all we did is tell stories
about my time in 24 7, my
wife's time in 24 7, and some
great stories, some great moments, some crazy

(12:53):
things that happened. No, they don't exist
anymore. But, yeah, so. So I'm in
this program, and it's very intense, physically
exhausting, all this stuff. You know, we
always tell people 247 wasn't a cute
name. It was literal. It was 24
hours a day, seven days a week.
Like, you're just 100 dedicated to Jes

(13:16):
in this. In this program. And we
had gone through this. We called it
missions training. And it was five days
in the mountains of Colorado, simulating a
missions experience, but it was, like, progressively
more insane as it goes. So, like,

(13:36):
day one is, like, your average youth
missions trip, like, kind of experience. Day
five is like underground church in North
Korea and getting, like, secret police, like,
coming and arresting you and, like, it
ends with your execution. Like, it's so.
It's like, seriously, like, people should have

(13:58):
been arrested. But, like, it was. It
was insane. It was crazy. We signed
up for it. We were all for
it. It was great. It was best
experience of my life and the worst
experience of my life. All rolled in
explaining a lot, though, right? Like, so
when people are like, brent's a little
weird, it's like, yeah, this is wild.
And I hope that somebody from 247

(14:18):
is watching this episode. That'd be awesome,
because you relate to this. But those
five days is like sleep deprivation. You're
in the mountains, you're hiking all over
the place, and they're stimulating all this
stuff. And like I said, it actually,
it ends with you go to this,
like, underground church experience, and then the
police come and raid it, and you
get thrown into this, like, crazy room

(14:39):
that's like a prison. And then you
get brought out of that into these
interrogation moments. And, like, I remember. I
don't know where they found this guy,
but the guy doing my interrogation, I
found out later, like, he was in
Mogadishu during, like, the Blackhawk down thing.
Like, he was, like, a Delta Force
kind of guy. And, like, he's smoking
a cigar during my interrogation. He's got,
like, fake blood. I. I hope it

(15:00):
was fake blood on his knuckles. I
don't know for sure. Like, it was
just a very intense moment. And then
it ends basically with them saying, you
know, they put a hood over your
head, and they're like, deny Christ or
die. And they wait for your response,
and you respond, and then they fire
a blank.

Really?

And, like, literally, like, music. Like, there's
all kinds of noise happening in the
room, and they fire the gun off,
and then it's just dead silence. And
you're like, I know that this is
pretend, but is this pretend? Right? Like,
it is such a bizarre experience. And
then they start reading your eulogy like
that you've helped write without realizing that

(15:40):
you helped write it. Like, they ask
you all these questions, like, the week
before about what you want to do
in your life and all this stuff,
and they start reading it off like
it's, like, legit your death. And then
they take the hood off your head,
and, like, it's the director of the
program there and your team leader and
all these people, and they're like, hey.
And they hug you, and you're just.
You're just kind of like. It is
so bizarre.

This is where disciples first started.

This is where it started. So I.
I went. So they take. Yeah. You're
like, I quit. Don't worry. We're not
doing any of that stuff. But they
take you from that to a room
to basically process. So it's been five
days. There's a lot that's happened. You
just died. Like, you just heard your
eulogy. Like, so they give you a

(16:24):
notebook, and they take you in a
room with, like, some pretty instrumental music
and, like, nobody talk. Just sit. Process
your thoughts and your feelings and write
in your journal. And I remember writing
in this little notebook, my life for
the gospel. And it was. That was
the moment when I said, you know,
I know that this is all pretend,

(16:44):
that all of this, like, will I
deny Christ? No. All of that was
just pretend. But if it ever happened
for real, I'm in 100%. Just my
life for the gospel, I'm all in.
And I know that for people hearing
this story, are gonna think that's extreme.
That's not normal. But if you actually

(17:06):
read the New Testament, that's what it
means to follow Jesus. Like, that is
supposed to be the normal. And we've
turned Christianity in america in the 21st
century as this, like, cool, hip, comfortable
thing. And, you know, we've, we've got
all of the stuff that makes it

(17:27):
easy to follow Jesus when you actually
read the Bible, it's my life for
the Gospel.

Right, but we ignore all the scriptures
and verses about sacrifice.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And then. Or we'll,
we'll be like, yeah, I'm being persecuted
because my, my job wouldn't let me
take off to go to noon prayer.

Right.

The persecution, it's like, no, no, that's
not, that's not how that works. Or
like, you've been really obnoxious with the
gospel on social media and somebody is
like, hey, cut it out. You're like,
I'm being persecuted. No, that's not.

They boiled John in oil. Yeah, yeah,
that's persecution.

Throw him off of the, the tower,
the temple wall and, and stone him
and. Yes.

And then club him in the end
because he just didn't die.

Yeah. And that level of persecution still
exists in the world today. Like when
we talk to missionary partners in India
and in parts of Africa and in
the Middle East. Like, it's like, there
are people who right now today are
going to have to make that decision.
My life for the gospel. And there
are people literally today that are being

(18:33):
asked, deny Christ or die. And their
choice is to die. And that still
sounds so extreme. So just out there.
But it really shouldn't. Like, that should
be the norm because that's what's presented
in the Bible. And somehow the American

(18:56):
church got really caught up in this
whole prosperity and health and wealth. And
following Jesus gives me the best life
ever. And it does. But you got
to understand what the best life ever
means. Like, the best life ever is
that you're in the will of God,
that you're being used by him for
his glory. Right? And so the best

(19:16):
life ever could mean you have zero
dollars in the bank account, and it's
still the best life ever. Right. And
so it's just a matter of getting
this place where we were able to
say, look, I'm following him on good
days and bad days. I'm following him
when he gives me a brand new
car and when I have no vehicle
to drive. Like, it's. Because it's not

(19:38):
the stuff I get out of it.

Right.

It's who I get out of it.
And I'm getting Jesus. Like, I love,
like, the verse I read today in
our, in our noon prayer. The invitation
is just come, follow me. Like, he
doesn't promise to Give them things. It's
like, you know, come follow me, and
then you'll never be sick a day
in your life. No. He's like, come

(20:00):
follow me. Just come on.

Yeah.

And. And they're like, okay, we get
you. All right, I'm in.

Yep.

And so I. That's. That's where my
faith really, really started. That was 18
years old. Up until that point, I
was. I talked about it on Sunday,
like, I was the kid that was
getting re. Saved every week, twice a
week. Right. Like. And, like, that's no
joke. Like, it was legit. Like, that
was just, you know, because I knew
there was sin that was fun. But

(20:28):
then it was like, I also don't
want to go to hell, so I'd
have my fun and then do the
thing I need to do to not
end up in hell. And it was
just kind of that process back and
forth.

So that time at 247 stuck with
you through you becoming lady pastor.

Oh, absolutely. So I spent three years
in that program, and everything I am
today is forged in that fire of
24 7. And so, like, I know
I've got friends that went through the
program that, like, absolutely hate it. And
they're like, that was the worst time
of my life for me. It. Even
the suckiness of it. It was like,

(21:03):
no. It made me who I am.

So when you became lead pastor. I'm
sorry, Taysha.

No, this is great. Go ahead.

When you became lead pastor of clc,
did you say to yourself, this is
gonna be Disciples Church?

No.

Like, how did that work?

No, when I got to CLC, it
was 2006. So literally right after. So
I did three years in this program,
graduated, and came on staff at clc.
And it was. I'm just here to
support my dad's vision. And the vision
was Christian Life Center. So, like, there
was no, like. And fast forward all
the way up to. We became campus

(21:37):
pastors, we became executive pastors, we became
lead pastors. There was nothing in me
that was like, I'm changing who we
are. Like, it was still like, this
is me personally. I want to be
a disciple. And I think that as
a church, every church is wanting to
make disciples. Right? I think that's the
point. And so I was totally fine
with leaving it as Christian Life Center.

(21:57):
In fact, it's kind of funny. My
dad asked me at least three different
times. I know it was more than
three, but there's three, like, very distinct
moments that he came to me and
said, hey, do you want to change
the name of the Church. There was
one in, like, 2018, 2019. We were
just starting to work towards succession. He's
like, hey, if you're thinking about changing
the name of the church, let me
do it. He's like. He's like, I'll

(22:19):
do it that way as the founding
pastor. Like, it. It's not like, oh,
the new guy's coming in to change
things, right? So he's like, let me
do it. I'm like, why would I
change the name? I was raised in
this church. Like, I'm Christian life setter.
Like, it's in my DNA. And then
in. In 2020 again, he. He was
like, hey, you know, if you want
to change the name, let's. Let me.

(22:41):
Let me lead the way. Let me.
Let me do it. And I was
like, no, I got no desire to
do that. And then right as we
were about to take over the church,
he's like, last chance, man. After this,
it's on you. And so, like, he
actually approached me three different, like, big
moments and said, hey, you want to
change the name of the church? Which
is kind of a silly side story.
I was at a pastor's training, and.

I know the story.

I know this story because she knows
the story. So I was at this
pastor's training. It was part of my,
like, preparation to become lead pastor. It
was led by a guy that had
done amazing ministry stuff for 50 years.
And he was just sharing his 50
lessons from 50 years of ministry. And
so I was down there. I think
it was four different times at his

(23:26):
church for this training. And I think
it was on, like, the second or
third visit he was doing a lesson.
There's probably, I don't know, 50 of
us in this room that he's teaching,
and he's talking about, like, church plants
and campuses and all this stuff. And
he gets into, like, naming your church.
And he goes through all the trendiness
of, like, here's what people are doing

(23:46):
today. Here's how you should choose the
name for your church and all this
stuff. And he's like, you know, you
got lots of options for what you
can name your church. He's like, just
whatever you do, the only thing you
don't want to do is name your
church something like, I don't know, Christian
Life Center. And I'm like, I'm sitting
at a table with, like, six other
guys, and we have name plates.

So it says, church's name is on.

It says. It says, Executive Pastor Brent
McQuay, Christian Life Center. And literally, like,
all the guys at my table Just
go, that is hilarious. Oh, I was.
It was so awkward.

Did you want to fall through the
floor?

I. Absolutely, 100%. I mean, you know,
my person. I don't like people looking
at me anyways. But, like, for something
like that, like, I was like, no,
no, no, no, no. But it was.
It was funny because they. They're even
like, so are you going to. So
they all knew that I was in
transition at that point, and so they're
like, like, so are you gonna. Are
you gonna change the name? And I
was like, no. I mean, I'm like,

(24:42):
I get it. I get that it's,
you know, it's not the trendy thing
to name your church, but I'm like,
at that point, I'm like, we've got
30 years of.

History become our DNA in the community.

Like, people know us as CLC. I
was like. And I think maybe that's
the saving grace that, like, most people
don't know us as Christian Life Center.

Yeah.

Most people just know us as clc.
And it's like, you know, we make
it work. We make it work. And
so it's funny, one of the guys
at the table was like, okay, cool.
And then he went home and he
changed the name of his church, but
his wasn't even, like, something crazy. But
it was just funny to me that,
like, the example of what not to
name your church was our church. And
I came back and I. I told

(25:18):
that story to my dad because he
was like, that's hilarious. He's like, so
what are you gonna change it to?
And I'm like, I'm not changing the
name.

Okay, so when did you have the
moment when you felt like it was
time to change?

You missed that last opportunity.

You missed three opportunities.

I know, right?

Like, help you with the transition.

Yeah.

I wish would have taken it, because
then I wouldn't have been.

You wouldn't have had to do all
the work. So. Man. So. So literally,
like, the. The year that we took
it, when. When discipleship became the word
of the year in 2023, like, we
took over. There was. There was this,
like, nudge or was like. Because I
think I had told somebody at one

(25:58):
point it might have been my dad.
I said, the only way I would
change the name of the church is
if I felt strongly what the name
was supposed to be. Like, I wouldn't
just change it and just try and
just pick a name. Right. Or just.
Or just, like, draw something out of
hat. Which is. Which is kind of
ironic. A lot of people don't know
this story either, but the name Christian
Life center was literally just pulled out
of thin air. Like, it was. It

(26:19):
was telling all the secrets. In the
late 80s, there was, like, a magazine
that, like, talked about, like, church naming.
And the convention at the time was
you wanted to name yourself a center,
not church. Because in the late 80s,
early 90s, like, churches were kind of
negative, But a center was a great
place to come, but that you also

(26:40):
needed to put Christian in the name
so that people would identify what kind
of center you are, because you don't
want to be like, a sports center
or, or, you know, whatever. So, like,
Christian and center became the, like, model
name. But then they said, but if
everybody's just Christian center, you know, you're
not distinguished in the community.

Right.

So you needed another adjective or another
word to describe what kind of Christian
center you are. And so my dad
read that, and he was like, and.
And I think at the time, Christian
Life center was the most common variation
of Christian Center. And so he's like,
all right. Which is why my sister
goes to a church in Florida that
was started in the late 80s, early

(27:19):
90s, called Christian life center. Has no
connection to us whatsoever.

It's actually confused. Confused when I thought,
I'm like, is that our campus?

Which is why there was a church
up until here recently, they changed their
name as well, but it was a
family Christian center, because Christian and center.

There you go.

But we had life, so they had
family. Right. Like, there's so many, like,
yeah. Random, random moments.

So the discipleship word of the year
in 2023, you started feeling the nudge
to go in this direction.

Yep. And I ignored it. Like, Like,
I, I. I do feel like I'm.
I shouldn't have. I do feel like
God redeems all things. And so, like,
the timing right now, I think it
actually is great. And I would go
so far as to say I think
the Holy Spirit was nudging me, knowing
that I wouldn't take the nudge, but
so that it would lay a foundation.

(28:07):
So I had to happen. Yeah, but
it wasn't sin.

Wait, wait, wait.

No, no, no. Let's not go there.
Let's stay on topic. Let's just stay
on topic. We don't want to.

Because I really want to address.

It's all things.

I want to get Carlton's take, though.

I mean, if you want to dwell.

On the past, we'll talk about it
later.

Okay.

Yeah, so I think so. Holy Spirit
was nudging me. Disciples Church. I think
I even Brought it up in a
meeting one time to just kind of
gauge people's reaction. And everybody at the
table was kind of like. I was
like, all right, I guess that's not
Holy Spirit. But it. Like, it's still,
like. It just. It kept hitting. And

(28:54):
I think it. The start of 2024
is when it became like, we gotta
do this. Like, we got into 2024,
and everybody's like, all right, you had
a word for the year last year.
What's your word this year? And I'm
like, discipleship. Same word. Like, I don't.
I don't. I'm not a word guy
anyway. Like, in general, like, I've never
had, like, let's get the word of

(29:15):
the year. And so, like, for. For
me, it was just like, no. Like,
I still just feel like God's like,
make disciples. Like, discipleship still needs to
be the focus of the church. And
that's where I started feeling like, man,
I don't want discipleship. Just be a
thing the church talks about or a
thing that the church does. I want
it to be the thing. And so,
like, if you look back over the

(29:36):
sermon series for the last two years,
like. Like, even just this past year,
the, like, Jesus series, that was the
setup, right? Like, it was like, hey,
this is what it actually means to
follow Jesus, that you would become more
like him and less like you. And
so, like, there's been so many things
that we've done, so many of our
sermon series, our conversations have been like,

(29:58):
we need to get back into some
fundamental things, some foundational things, because, like,
we need to know what we believe
and why we believe in. Because if
you're Christians believe all kinds of crazy
things, but as disciples, there's some things
that we need to be solid on.
And so, like, I think everybody looked
at me funny when I was like,
I want to do a series on
the Trinity. And everybody's like, how do

(30:21):
you explain that you want to do
a series on the tr. I'm like,
yes, I want to explain the doctrine
of the Trinity to people, but in
a way that. That is exciting.

Right? And then explain how it can
be explained.

Exactly. Yeah. Without it being modalism or
partialism or any of the other crazy
things. But, yeah.

So did you have fun putting the
message together and incorporating the announcement with
it? Because you did a really good
job at.

Fun is absolutely not the word. I
stressed and analyzed and overanalyzed and worked
through that thing more than any message
ever. Really?

How long did it take you?

Because I felt like, you were preaching
that message for at least three or
four months.

Absolutely. Well, I've been preaching it for
a while. And the. The root of
that message, for those of you that
have been around CLC for a while,
actually preached it in. I think it
was 2016, that. That starting point, like,
you could probably go back in our
archives and be like, hey, wait a
minute, Brent plagiarized himself. Like, so the.

(31:24):
The. And there was a lot of
differences to it. But like that. That
starting point of Christian versus disciple, like,
I've preached that. I preached that in
the Philippines. I preached that in Russia.
It was actually, I think I told
this to maybe our staff, maybe our
pastors. I don't remember somebody. I said
that was actually the first sermon I
ever preached where I walked off the
stage and it felt like that was
my message. Like, not just a message,

(31:47):
but my message. Like, if. If I
could communicate one thing for the rest
of my life, it would be stop
being a Christian, start being a disciple.

Right.

And so, like, that. That was. So
that aspect of it is easy. What's
hard is how do you build this
in such a way that makes people
excited for a huge change? That really,
in a lot of ways, the only
people that get excited about church names
are staff and pastors. Pastors are excited

(32:21):
about their church name. Members are like,
I go to this church because I
like the music, the teaching's good, and
it's on my way. Like. Like it's
nearby. Like, I don't know how many
people are.

Like, I feel like it's a new
thing, though, where people. Because when you
think about branding, and.

I'm so not true.

I know that's such a huge thing.
Like, people want a sense of identity.
And so when you think about, like,
being connected to something and, you know,
really giving to that thing, you. You
get connected to a name.

I think so. I also think that
a lot of people go to a
campus of a larger church. And so
their. Their church name is the. Like,
I don't want to say parent church
name, but the. The main church and
then the name of their town.

Yeah.

And so I think a lot of
people are going to church for maybe
a. I don't want to say, like,
the pastor has been branded. And so
you go to that branded pastor's church,
and the name of your church is
the name of that pastor's church and
your town. And so I think for
a lot of people, the church name
could be anything because they're there for,

(33:26):
you know, the fanfare of the Person
speaking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we have the reverse here,
because Brent doesn't want me to turn
him into a brand, but he is
a brand.

I don't like that. I don't like
the fact that my name is on
the sign outside. Yeah, here's the. Here's
the. Funny. The. The magazine that we
gave out at the end of service
yesterday to kind of walk people through.

Yeah.

I actually asked the guy putting the
magazine together. I was like, hey, can
you have less pictures of me in
it?

That's crazy.

Like, I was like, could you just
swap out some of those pictures? He's
like, no, this is important. This is
why. And I'm like, I'm really uncomfortable
with the number of pictures of my
face.

But you want people to come to
the church because of discipleship.

Yeah.

And not because of Brent McQuay or
the worship team.

I also think it'd be weird if
you came to this church for Brent
McWay. Like, you come to this church
for Jesus.

Right.

Like, it is for Jesus, but it
is a such thing as branding.

We're not gonna go there. I get
it.

People. It's like the theory. People buy
and purchase from brands they love.

Yeah.

It's the same concept. And it's not
like I feel like there's a sense
of false humility that sometimes happen in
the church, where it's like, oh, it's
all about Jesus, but Jesus is using
you. Like, this is your assignment for
the season. And how could I do
it? I think it's always about your
heart. So when someone's heart is like,
look at me, look at me, look

(34:50):
at me, that's where the problem lies.
And you can feel it and you
can tell, but you become more of
a brand. It's like, Jesus, we don't
want to be a brand. Like, people
are like, I love this person. They're
so genuine.

So what's funny to me is, like,
nobody's ever accused me of being trendy
before, but, like, there's been so many
people, like, oh, man. Like, this is
the perfect timing, because this is like,
discipleship is the trend. And I'm like,
that just that right there.

I didn't know that at all.

Like, remember I told you that?

You did. You're the person I'm talking
about. No, but there's others.

There's.

There's others. But here's the thing. Like,
I don't want discipleship to be a
trend because trends come and go. But,
like, discipleship has been around for 2,000
years. Like, in. In so Many ways.
Like, people are like, man, what's new?
And it's like the newest thing is
to do the oldest thing.

Yeah.

Like be a disciple.

Yeah.

Follow Jesus.

That's good.

Just give him everything.

Look at me. Can we tweak that
and put his name next to it?
No, we're getting him ready for this.

A big picture of my face with
my red cheeks.

We're getting ready for this book you're
gonna be dropping.

I've had people say, how come Brent
doesn't preach more? And because they're coming
for you.

I will say that.

And I was like my chopped liver.
Like, when I speak, am like, nobody.
Nobody wants to sing. But I love
the fact that, you know, we are
a church that wants people to come
for the. The entire vision of the
church and not just the sermon. So
I love it.

And I want people to get different.
Different voices and different perspectives. I mean,
I think it's dangerous when a church
has one voice. Right. Because what if
that person got that wrong? Like, what
if their theology is a little, you
know. And so I think that when
you can't share the pulpit, that's a
red flag for me.

Yeah, that is.

Now I will also recognize there's a
lot of people that are in a
smaller church setting where there's just nobody
else that has a communication gift. Because,
like, I'm not advocating for just throwing
people up on stage. You need to
be able to communicate because it is,
man. You got 35 minutes to get
people to care about the Bible and

(37:01):
Jesus. So you need to be able
to do that well. And I think
we are blessed at this church to
have a lot of people that we
can throw on that stage. And people
aren't losing out. Like, it's not like,
oh, man, I hate that I showed
up today and it's so and so.
Like, I've experienced that before where, like,
people, like, gone to, like, some of
the big name churches and they showed
up and it wasn't the big name

(37:22):
guy speaking. And they're like, I was
so disappointed it wasn't him. I was
like, you're disappointed to go to church?
Like, I don't think that's how we.

Get one of our first love guests.
He attends. I don't know if he.
We can discuss Manny Arango. Yeah, he's
at Social Dallas.

Yeah.

And Robert Madu is the speaker. And
so we're watch. We usually watch Robert
Madu on YouTube. And then one Sunday,
Manny Orango preached. I'm like, this guy's
on fire. Like. Like, what's his contact
information? Like, you know, I want him
to come to my church.

Yeah, man, he's great.

As long as the gospel is preached,
I say it's okay if people look
to you as someone, you're discipling them
digitally or as their pastor. I don't
know.

Yeah. And I mean I'm, I'm the
lead pastor, so I do think that,
that probably my voice needs to be
heard more than than anyone else's. But
it shouldn't be the only voice. Yeah,
that's where I love getting other people
in there.

So.

Yeah, go ahead, host.

I'm sorry. So we're Disciples Church now
in February.

February 1st.

February 1st, we're Disciples Church. You've. You've
made the. Or you were the transition
to lead pastor from Pastor Jerry and
Pastor Chris. You and Pastor Soul. And
now we're Disciples Church. I almost want
to say, what's the next thing? Or
is this the final thing and we
just build on it continuously?

That's good.

Like, do you see that there's levels
or stages to the church life of
Christian Life center or Disciples Church? Or
is it. This is the final stage
that we just build on going forward?

Yeah, I can't answer that. That's a
Holy Spirit.

I want to know.

Yeah. So am I ever the guy
that's just like, let's change it all,
let's change things? No, no, not at
all. But I am my father's son,
so I don't think I said it
in both servers, but one of the
servers, I mentioned the fact that my
dad used to always talk about how
we experiment at clc. You've been on
staff long enough.

I know you hear that.

And I'm like, oh yeah, we absolutely.
We have experimented all over. Everything is
an experiment. Everything is a. Let's see,
let's see if it works. Like, because,
because we, so we are very much
a spirit filled church. We are also
balanced. And so there are times when
it's like, this is the Holy Spirit
and there's times where like this might

(39:41):
be bad pizza. Like, I don't know
if this is the Holy Spirit or
not, but I feel really strongly about
this thing and so we'll try it.
And so like we've done Saturday night
services multiple times over history and we
never could make it quite work. And
we've, we've tried a bunch of different
things. You know, one time we changed
the, the tagline of the church after
we had somebody like recommend this to

(40:02):
us. It was like a marketing team.
They're like, you know, you should do
a real different church, because when we're
here, it's a real different church.

And I was always, like, opposed to
what?

Yeah. And it was like, a real
different church. And, like, I hated it
at the time, but I think I
was only the youth pastor. Like, I
had no authority to change anything. And
they're like, we're gonna go with a
real different church. And I was like,
that feels like that opens way too
many doors. Like, how are we different?
All those other churches love Jesus, but
we're a real different church.

Different.

Okay, but that's what that was. That
was one of my experiences working with
Pastor Jerry early on, because I would
be in a trustee meeting or a
board of overseers meeting, and I would
say, you know, with that. With. With
our profit margin, we shouldn't take on
an endeavor like this, like a project
that Pastor Jerry wanted to do or
something that he wants to launch. And
he would look at me, and he
would say, it's faith accounting. I would

(40:55):
say, faith accounting. What is faith? I'm
going back in my textbooks. Like, I've
never seen faith. I know. Managerial accounting.
I don't know faith accounting. And I
would be like, so with the budget
that we have and the profit margin
that we have, you want to do
this?

Yeah.

And it's like, you better be sure
the Holy Spirit told you that, because
we're not gonna make it. And he
would do it, and then, you know,
God would see us through completely. And
I would. I would tell myself, well,
faith accounting is real. So, yes, we
are an experimental church, for sure.

I mean, it's. It's a tithing principle.
It's like God does more with 90%
than we can do with 100%. And
so it's like, all right, let's. Let's
involve him on this. Yeah. And I
mean, that. That would be the story
behind pretty much all of our campus
launches. Like, you know, should. Should we
have launched this camp? Should we have
bought this building? Man, I don't know.
That's. That's a wild decision. But we're
following Holy Spirit, and God did great

(41:49):
things through it. Yeah. And so. Yeah,
so. So back to your question. Like,
it. I think that this is. This
is the big change. There may be
smaller changes here and there throughout, but
for now, like, this is the direction.

I mean, it seems final because it's
like, well, yeah, Jesus wants us to
do, period.

It would be really hard for us
to come back and be like, you
know, that whole discipleship thing.

I Forget about what Jesus told us.

Yeah.

You know, when Jesus said, go and
make disciples, what he actually meant was,
no, no, no. So, like, we're. We're
100%. We're focused on being who the
Bible tells us to be, and it
tells us to be disciples, so we're
gonna be disciples.

So I do have some questions to
tie in, like the, the actual message
on discipleship.

Thank you for bringing us back to
the point.

Yeah, no, I just want to keep
it. You know, my co host here
kind of, he's helping me steer. But
there were a lot of people, a
lot of excitement for the message on
discipleship and learning. Like, oh, yeah, I'm
not going to identify as a Christian.
I'm going to now identify as a
disciple. And we all know sometimes people

(43:02):
get really excited and they take a
word and they go home and they're
like, I'm going to do this. Right.
How do we. How are we going
to help them make that a real
heart change and not just a word.
This is not just membership. Like, you
don't go to Disciples Church and you're
a disciple. Like, how are we going
to really help them take that in

(43:22):
their heart and walk that out?

Yeah. So the big answer to that
question is what we're walking our staff
through right now, which is ird, Intentional
relational Discipleship. And so I even said
it from the stage yesterday, like, disciples
are not made by programs, they're made
by people. Right. So you don't become
a disciple because you attend a growth
track at Disciples Church. You sign the

(43:46):
bottom line, and now you're a disciple.
No, no, no. Discipleship is about relationship.
You never see anybody in Scripture become
a disciple without someone else guiding them.
Right. So originally, the first 12, it
was Jesus. You're just following Jesus. Then
in the, in the rest of the
New Testament, you're seeing Peter, you're seeing
Paul, you're seeing James, you're seeing all

(44:08):
these other people. They're presenting the gospel
and then it says. And then they
spent a year with them, teaching them.
And so, like, you're seeing this process
over and over. The letters that Paul
is writing to these churches, he's trying
to pastor them. He's equipping Timothy to
be their pastor to help them. So
it always came back to relationship. And
so that's the marker of a disciple.

(44:30):
You cannot be a disciple in isolation.
Like, you need someone else that you
are accountable with, that you are asking
questions of, that you're giving guidance to,
that you're receiving guidance from. And so
for us moving forward, it really is
all about how do we build those

(44:52):
kind of relationships. And so I think
the days of I just go to
church on Sunday morning, I think those
are over for us as a church.
And what I don't mean by that
is now we go to church on
Sunday morning and on Wednesday night. No,
no, no. I think what it is,
is the church gathering on Sunday is
to inspire and equip and encourage. But

(45:14):
then you live out Monday through Saturday
as a disciple. Right. And so that's
the interactions that you're having with other
people. And so with all of this,
like, one of the big ways that
we are building those relationships is through
our small group system, which is not
new. And this is. This is where
some people are gonna be. Like, there's

(45:35):
not enough changing. Like, it's like, I
don't see enough new things. Like, no,
no, no. We're just getting intentional with
the things we've already been talking about.
We've been talking about these things because
we've recognized that discipleship is the thing.
Like, it's not new. It's not even
new. In the last two years, for
us as a church, even Christian Life
center, in the days of Jerry and
Chris McQuay, it was like, how do
we make better disciples? How do we

(45:55):
get people to really follow Jesus? And
that's why we moved away from a
midweek Bible study, because it was like,
okay, we want small groups where people
are in relationship, but they keep choosing
the Bible study instead of the.

Group instead of the relationships.

Yeah. And so we literally, like, we
had a awesome midweek church service every
single Wednesday. But no, it was like,
we had maybe 5% of our church
getting into small groups. It was like,
okay, unless we kill Wednesday night Bible
study, people are always going to choose
it over another meeting. And so we
killed it. Like, it's like, all right,

(46:29):
it's not about a midweek Bible study
anymore. Now it's about getting in those
groups. And so our small groups, it's
still. It's the number one way that
you get into relationship. We've got to
do. There's so many cliche statements, but
they're cliche for a reason. Like, we
have to do life together because that's
what disciples do. We do life together.
So that's that. First space is the
small group. Second space is also not

(46:51):
a new thing, but it's our dream
team, which, moving forward, this is our
DC teams, but DC teams, like, that's
a place where you're. Now you're serving
with Other people, like, the first discipleship
relationships that I had at the church
were in our youth ministry because we
were doing life with the people we
served with. And so like, we'd have

(47:12):
people come over to our house, we're
playing rock band and we're eating nachos
and we're just hanging out. But then
we're talking about the Bible and we're
encouraged and somebody, somebody's using that group
to say, hey, look, I'm really struggling
with this, this issue. Can you guys
pray for me? Can you encourage me?
So like our dream team at the
time became our discipleship space. And I
think that that can continue today. That

(47:35):
what team you serve in there should
be more than just, well, I'm a
greeter, so I say hi to people
at the door. Sure, yeah, that's what
you do. But you also have other
greeters that now you're in relationship with.
Now you have a leader over the
greeting team that is checking in on
you, that's praying for you, that's answering
the questions you might have, that, that's
encouraging you in different areas. And so

(47:56):
that, that becomes a discipleship place. And
then the, the thing that may be
more new than the other two is
just one to one discipleship relationships that
when we say be one and make
one, that's that one to one. And
that's where we want to get people
to be intentional with finding someone and
going to them and saying, hey, I

(48:17):
need somebody to help me live this
out. Will you disciple me? Will you
help me become more like Jesus? And
for that to become an intentional space.
That's why we call it intentional relational
space. Discipleship, it only happens through relationship,
but it only happens also when we
are being intentional about it.

Right.

So that means we're going to be
encouraging our people to say, hey, every
Tuesday we're going to get together at
7:00 for breakfast.

Yeah.

And every Tuesday, the three of us,
we're going to go to breakfast and
we're going to talk about life and
work and Jesus and discipleship and the
Bible.

I love it.

We're just going to grow together. So,
like, for us, the biggest change for
this church is the language. It's just
we're gonna be constantly talking, how are
you becoming a disciple? How are you
making disciples? And we're gonna be pressing
on everybody. And like, this is the
thing that's gonna get so frustrating for
people. They're like, but I just need
to be discipled. No, no, that's not

(49:15):
an option. Right, right. That's not the
option is not to just be discipled.
No. Jesus told his disciples to go
make disciples, which means you're not really
a disciple until you take that next
step, until you actually start discipling somebody
else. So, like, we talked about it
this morning, just real briefly with the
staff that, like, how far into your

(49:37):
relationship with Jesus do you need to
be until you start discipling?

Yeah.

And the conclusion we came to is
one week.

One week ahead.

One week ahead. All you got to
do is be one week ahead. You
got saved today. By Sunday, you could
be helping somebody that's not saved get
saved. Right. Like, it's just be one
week ahead.

I mean, that is really good. And
this may be where we challenge each
other. No, I'm just playing.

It's like, that's too soon.

I'm not gonna be.

That's too soon.

I mean, because we have so many.
How do I say this? There's a.
There's a. There was a trend of,
like, conversions and people coming to Christ.
And when. Sometimes I look on social
media, I wonder if this is just
a trend or is this really a
lifestyle change? And there's so much guidance,

(50:24):
I feel, because, listen, when you've been
in a game for a long time,
you see a lot. And so how
do you. How do you walk that
line where you have people who are
just like, I'm ready. I'm ready. And
they not. And. Well, I mean, that's
my opinion.

Out in the discipleship process, when you're
doing life with someone, those things come
out, and then you can start seeing
the shallow parts of life or the
presentation of salvation that then you can
correct.

Yeah.

And I think that just happens.

So I'm saying if someone wants to
be a discipler and.

Oh, like.

And so if I'm. Let's say. Yeah,
let's say.

And you're on fire for God for
that hot second, like, you're a man.

Taisha's like, I want to disciple somebody.
I'm gonna tell them that God wants
them to sin so that I am.

I wouldn't. That is horrible.

You had to be here last week.

You had to be here. And that
was not my point. My point was
God is sovereign over everything, even our
sin. And so that was my point.
But I digress.

Anyways. Anyways. No, so. So. And here's
where it. Like, so I do concede
the point that, like, you may not
be ready for, like, you got saved
this week, you're still deep in sin,
and now you're going to be Showing
somebody else. Okay, I get that there's

(51:51):
some complication there. I also think that
discipleship is always going to be messy.
There's always going to be like this,
this process. Now, Jesus disciples, they were
with him for three years before they
started disciples.

Yeah.

But even after that, like, we see
Paul correct Peter, like, he, he said
something or he was doing something that
was. Paul was like, hey, that's not
correct Peter.

And then wrote the greatest chapter in
the Bible.

It was amazing.

Peter, he took the advice. Yeah, but
this new generation, like, you can't.

Yeah, and that's where.

Yeah, but, but that's not on you.
It's the power of the Holy Spirit
that's going to work in the verse.
And they can receive it or not
receive it, but, you know, and it.

And it's going to be ugly. It's
going to be messy, and you're going
to, you're going to get out there
and you're going to do something wrong.
You're going to say the wrong thing.
You're not going to have an answer,
and that's okay. What our job as
the church is to equip people to
be better disciples and to be better
disciple makers. And so that's on us.
And so there's resources and there's things
that we're going to help people walk

(52:53):
through. There's an app that one of
our missions partners created that we were
going to give out to people to
help them walk through this. So, like,
we're not going to leave people just
blind in it. But I think the,
the number one thing that we want
to teach people is, okay, following Jesus
is paramount. So you got to be
following Jesus, which means you're reading your

(53:14):
Bible. So if I'm doing my Bible
reading, then in my discipleship with somebody
else, all I'm doing is sharing with
them what I just read. And if
I get something wrong or I don't
have answers, then the response is to
say, let me, let me ask somebody
more mature or more seasoned, somebody further
down the road, what that is or
what that means, and let's figure it

(53:35):
out together. And I think that there
is room in discipleship, and I think
this happens organically anyways. But I want
to say it out loud like, you're
growing together. Like, even if. So if
I'm discipling somebody, I'm 40 years old,
been, you know, going to church my
entire life, literally, I've been serious about

(53:57):
this thing now for, what's that, 22
years. So since 18 until now, there's
still, if I'm discipling somebody, I'm still
learning as I go. When I'm preparing
a sermon, like, I'm. I'm preparing to
teach somebody else, but I'm the one
learning first. And so that's. That's where
I get to that whole, like, just
be one week ahead and be okay

(54:19):
saying, I don't know. Be okay saying,
I'm struggling in that area too. Let's
work on that together. Let's pray about
that together. Let's. Let's find somebody else
that's more seasoned. And I think that
at the end of the day, like,
we've got so many people that are
in amazing relationship with Jesus today that
they can help guide others through this.

That's good.

Yep. And the beautiful thing is that
you are. Hopefully both parties are in
the church.

Yeah.

And the church has pastors and elders
and other leaders who can help guide
and kind of, you know, put boundaries
and guardrails around the whole process of,
you know, younger Christians who are trying
to go through. Through this process. I
remember I was talking to someone about
the devotional that I did, the last
devotional that I did, and another member

(55:10):
walked past and called her doctor. And
I said, oh, what kind of doctor
are you? I'm thinking of doctor of
medicine or whatever. And she was like,
oh, no, I have a doctorate in
theology. And I was like, what? You
need to be discipling me? And it
was like. It was so cool. She
was like, no, because I get so
refreshed from you all. I learned something

(55:32):
new. Like, you all's presentation of the
Gospel is so unique and fresh, and
she loves it. I'm sitting there thinking,
like, no, it's not. Like, you know,
in my own way, I'm like, I
want to learn from you. And she's
sitting there like, no. Like, this has
been so good for me to be
under you guys. And so it was
beautiful.

And there is a humility required in
the whole discipleship process on both parties.
Like, the humility to be able to
say, I'm struggling with that. The humility
to say, I don't know the answer
to that question you just asked me,
but let me figure it out. Right.
Like, that. That's. That's what I love.
Like, and I got to experience that.

(56:12):
You know, I'm teaching in Life University.
I taught a apologetics course. Like, that
was really stretching for me because I've
always dabbled in apologetics. I love listening
to apologists, but I'm not one. Like,
I'm a Pastor, this is why.

You and David are friends, right?

Like, I love like apologetics, but I'm
a pastor. I do better with leadership
and with like, here's how to read
the Bible. But I loved learning things
because there was people that would come
to me with questions like, hey, how
come these people believe this thing? Or
hey, I've got this co worker that's

(56:49):
new age and they've been asking me
this question. I don't know how to
respond to them. And like, usually when
I get those kind of questions, like
my first response is, I have no
idea. Like I've never even thought about
that once in my life. You're somebody.

Say that I don't know nothing.

Like I am, I am just as
ignorant as any other 40 year old
guy. But what I think the blessing
that I have to give to other
people is I love to learn. I'm
a student. I just, I just love,
I just love the process of learning.
And so if you come to me
with a question that I don't have

(57:25):
an answer to, I don't feel the
need to pretend like I do because
I know I'm an idiot. Like, I'm
fully aware of my own limitations. And
so when somebody asks me a question
I don't have the answer to, I
get excited because it means I get
to go learn something. And so I
think if we can all have kind
of that humility and that level of
just I want to learn and grow

(57:45):
too, like, then people's questions are no
longer scary. Yeah, I think a lot
of people are just, they're so nervous.
They're so scared of somebody's going to
ask me a question I don't have
the answer to. That's why I won't
share the gospel with my neighbor, because
I know he's going to ask me
a question I don't have the answer
to. Awesome. Then you get to learn.
When they ask that question, you go,

(58:07):
that's a wonderful. Let me write down
that question. Let me go find some
answers for you. And I'll be back
next week. Stay one week ahead.

That's really good. You did not do
that with my question though. I'm going
to see an article I read on
the sovereignty of God and we're going
to chop it up.

I want to be a part of
this.

I didn't need to study, I didn't
need to study that.

So you believe that?

All right, Carl, here's where it went.
So the, the stance was. Yeah, so
the stance was these two people had
to literal words had to have premarital
sex because it resulted in that baby
being born.

Yeah. No, that's not how God works.

Thank you.

Okay. I was talking specifically about the
sovereignty of God. So God is sovereign
and he knows all things.

So he controlling. And that's what I
try to lay out.

No, he does not control. I mean,
he does. Well, he does control all
things. But you get free will. Right.
You get free will, submit it to
him. Right. I get it.

So he's sovereign over my life because
I've given my life to Christ.

Yeah. It's. It's the difference between sovereignty
and causation.

But if I wasn't a believer and
I go out and I, you know,
do something terrible, I know it's horrible.

He's not.

Sovereignty comes in when I relinquish control
of my life to God and then
he becomes my.

I'm going to talk deep like them
so I can get my point across.

All right, go ahead. I'm sorry.

So what I was trying to convey
is that God is sovereign and yes,
we do have free will, but all
things work together for us. Right. So,
yes, if you have.

Could be a misinterpretation of Scripture, but
go ahead. That's too long of a
conversation. Go ahead, continue.

Ti’heasha Beasley (01:00:02):
So that. All I'm saying is, my
point here is I would love to
have a real conversation about the sovereignty
on the sovereignty of God, because for
me, honestly, the sovereignty of God provides
hope. Knowing, like, everything that happens in
my life, whether it's good or bad,
it's for my good. It's gonna ultimately
push me to be more like Christ.

(01:00:24):
So I'm thinking about sanctification. I'm thinking
about all of those things. And so
that's the place I'm coming from.

Pastor Carlton McCarthy (01:00:33):
Okay. Yeah, I can see that. Yep.
Even unto death, because they crucified Jesus.
So you suffer longer.

Conversation. Yes.

Brent McQuay (01:00:44):
Sovereignty of God does not remove consequences
of actions. It also doesn't place the
causation of those actions on his sovereignty,
and it.

Doesn'T affect free will. That's not submitted
to His Lordship.

As you get all of that. I'm
just saying it's all used.

Used. But I think you may be.
You may have a different definition of
sovereignty.

He may be using it after the
fact. And now you have to pay
child support to.

I think sovereignty, baby mama, your definition
of sovereignty may need to change. You're
correct. It's just. You're using. You may
be using the wrong word for it.

I am open to more conversation. I
am. I am very open I think
we.

Need to have a podcast.

I've been studying, studying it and I'm.

Like, I got so excited last week
when all of a sudden we was
like, no, let's battle this out. Let's.

And she was like, no, I mean,
what did you study in the moment?
I've just been reading different Reformed theology.
It was John Piper.

I usually fall into that myself.

Yes, it was John Piper.

It's very. It's good. Like, yeah, Desiring
God is my. That's my.

I love Reformed theology.

Yeah.

But I just can't get behind Calvin.

Yeah. There's. There's a couple of tweaks
in there that's like. Okay.

I think it falls. I think though,
it falls apart in the free will
aspect.

Yeah.

Because it does not appropriately consider free
will.

And you need free will for love.

Yep.

You cannot have love without free will.

Yeah. Free will becomes too essential to
Christian doctrine.

Yes.

I believe to our.

To the existence of. Of creation, to.
To all of us.

Yeah. If you. So you try and
get into apologetics and you start trying
to argue about like the. The problem
of pain and things like that, and
you don't. You no longer have the
free will aspect of the argument. And
man, now all of a sudden you've
got nothing.

Yeah. Now you don't have a reason
and it becomes bad.

No, it's a mouth.

It's not. I think it's all a
part of his plan of creation and
redeeming us back to him. I guess
it's more conversation because I may just
need a little bit of a perspective
switch.

I think the biggest shift there would
be. What do you mean by his
plan? Because if your interpretation of his
plan means he wants me to do
bad things, that's up. Bad definition.

I would never say that. No, I
don't. I don't encourage.

Uses the outcome of the bad thing.
That's for purpose that he has.

That's me. That's mainly what I'm stating.
Like.

Yeah. And I think I would even
go against that. Like, I. So can
he use all things for our good?
Sure. Does that mean he's going to
use your stupid thing to. To do
something good? I don't think he always
has to. Okay, well, what is sanctification
Becoming more like Christ.

Right. But there's things that happen that
exposes areas you need to become more
like Christ in.

Yeah, but you could also become more
like Christ by choice.

That's true.

Like, you don't. You don't have to
have a baby mama.

No, you don't I mean, some have
to.

Like I think about David and Bathsheba.
His son died in seven days. He
died.

Yeah.

So that was, that was a part
of his fault.

Right. That's a part of his sin.
So I'm not saying.

How far would you take that into.
That was for his good.

It was a consequence of his sin.

We got Psalms 51 because of his
sin. I'm sorry, like, right.

But that's not to say that we
wouldn't have had a different kind of
Psalm 51.

It would have been, it would have
been completely different. But we, he knew
the Psalms 51 we needed. So that's
what I'm saying. Like he knew what
we needed. And so I still think
that that.

Puts you in a bad place. Like
Paul says, do we sin so grace
may bound?

No, we don't.

Right.

That's what you're saying though.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that
when you sin and if you sin,
he uses that for his.

So sometimes you have to take things
to it. Its logical conclusion though. And
if you take your statement to.

This podcast about the announcement of Disciples
Church, we're back here.

So derailed. I love it though. But
sometimes you have to, you have to
take things to its logical conclusion. If
you take your statement to its logical
conclusion, then therefore God wants you to
sin. That would be the logical conclusion
of all of that.

I don't say one. I say he
knows and he will use. I don't
say want. I say, yeah, you can
choose whatever words he sees, he knows.
If Scripture's like, he's predestined our days,
he's numbered.

Our days are just bad though, Taisha.

I know it is, but is it
a possibility in our human mind? We
can't fathom that God can allow things
to happen that are not absolutely like
sure feel good moments to make us
more like him.

This conversation with Job. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Nobody's arguing that that doesn't happen.

But that's all I'm saying.

Yeah, it's just, it's a.

You just don't like the way I'm
saying it.

Yeah, it's because it's a, it's a,
it's a logical complication. Like if you
take that logic all the way out,
then you're saying, well, it's really good
that Hitler killed 6 million Jews.

I never said it was good. But
I take the logical. I said it
was it. All things that happen can
be used. And he. Because he knows
everything that's going to happen. Every single
day.

Yeah.

As long as you're not saying he's.
Or orchestrating.

No, I'm not.

Or that he requires.

I'm coming from.

I think that's part. Part of it
too, is he's requiring it almost because
the. Like the argument of. Well, we
wouldn't get Psalm 51. Then by logic,
that means God required Bathsheba and David
and a dead baby. So, like, I
don't know how to.

It's hard because I even think about.
I even think about God going to
the cross. I even think about God
going to the cross and how intentional
he was with breaking some of the
rules so that they could. Attention could
be put on him. Because he knew,
like, it was all intentional. So that
he could be arrested and go to
the cross. Because he knew that had
to happen.

Break rules.

Rules, though he. Well, when he healed
people on Sabbath.

Like, he corrected them about.

And said that it was right. He
didn't break them.

He didn't break the rule of God.

Right. He corrected them. But in man's
eyes, in the. In the.

That's not okay.

I'm just saying everything. He's intentional about
everything. That's all I'm saying. And I
say that so.

Not a fair conversation.

Do you know why? When it's me
and Carlton, I know it's not fair.
You know why I say that? Because
I feel like when you think about,
for me, God's sovereignty. God's sovereignty provides
hope and it provides peace. Knowing that,
you know, life will offer different things
that can happen. But God is going
to take all of those things and
still get the glory when you are
his child, you know? So that's why

(01:07:58):
I stand so firmly on. Like, God
is sovereign.

So you say that it's a. That
it's a happy ending or that it.

Like, what defines it all works together
for God's good and his glory, whatever
that is. Like, there's so many.

As long as you're okay with that
could be really sucky for you.

It could be.

It could be, but I'm with you.

Or it could be Peter getting crucified
upside down.

Yeah.

I mean, John, like, it's a lot
of people who. You know, there's a
lot of things that happen. And I'm
just saying God knows that it's going
to happen. And I'm not saying he
calls it. I'm not saying. But he's
so faithful that he works it all
together for our good.

Yeah.

But anyway, we. We need to end
this show. It's hard.

It's hard to say to someone who's
in suffering or hardship.

God wanted that.

It's hard to tell people that.

I'm not saying it's not. It could
be good for them to know that
even though this happened to you, God
can redeem this story for you. This
is not the end for you, even
though you made that horrible choice.

But it could be the end. And
does he still get the glory? It
could not be.

I'm not gonna say it on air.
I do have. I do have a
response, but I'm not gonna say it
on air.

But we need a podcast on correction
of Peter and what he wrote after.

Yeah, that'd be fun.

Anyways.

I think so.

My blood pressure is high just.

Just to make a bunch more people.

Mad and confused, because how is this
about discipleship?

This is discipleship. We're. We're discipling Taisha
right now.

Now I'm gonna go.

Purpose of me being studies.

Yeah, we're gonna go try and find
better argumentation.

Right.

For sovereignty without it becoming causation.

Right.

I love that.

No, but it's a really mess with.
With people. There's a old saying of
don't put a period where God put
a comma that I hate. Because sometimes
God puts periods, and we need to
be okay with the period too.

That's true.

And we get so caught up in
the. It's not over yet. It's like,
okay. And when it's over, it's still
good.

That was good. I agree with that.
I do agree with that. All right,
let's do our takeaways, because the team.
Everybody's just over it.

If you're still watching this episode, I'm.

So glad you're here. We're gonna do
our takeaways. So we always end with
the. The big takeaway of the Sunday
sermon.

I didn't know that. Or did I
know that maybe.

Okay, we're a part of one of
them. So who wants to go first?
Pastor Brandt, you should go first, because
you're gonna take everybody's takeaway. So he
always takes everyone's takeaway.

My. My big takeaway is don't settle
for being a Christian.

That's good.

Take that extra step. Be a disciple.
Christianity is easy. Discipleship costs you everything.
I think I'm gonna use a quote
on Sunday This. This coming week. I
got to look it up to get
it right. But basically the quote is
something along the lines of discipleship. The
cost of discipleship is everything. The reward
of discipleship is everything else.

That's Good.

And it's just beautiful.

I gotta find who said it and
how they actually built in my brain.
That's the basic thing.

But go ahead. What's yours?

I think for me, the sermon itself
or just the day.

Let's go with the. Is that fair?
Okay. So the day.

The day. I think what was so
impactful for me was the reaction of
the congregation. And it wasn't the reaction
of the congregation of the excitement of
the name change. It was their excitement
of the content of the sermon about
being disciples of Christ and how it's
more than just being a Christian. And

(01:12:02):
I think that we talked about this
a little bit, maybe this morning, about
the setup. Didn't include an. A reward
for anyone.

There was no incentive for this, no.

Incentive for anyone to be a disciple.
And the congregation still responded to the
word of God and the will of
God of being a disciple. Even though
you didn't present a positive outcome or
negative outcome. You just said, this is
what Jesus wants us to do.

He said, follow me.

And everyone was so excited and on
the edge of their seat for just
that alone that there could have been
no announcement or you could have announced
anything.

That's true.

I think that that was so important
for me to feel the response of
the congregation during the content of the
message.

I like it.

Yeah, that was good. I think mine
leads up to this moment. In February
2025, we will be officially Disciples Church.
That's my takeaway. You should be.

I'm very excited. I'm very excited. We've
been sitting on this one for a
long time, and it's. Man, the. The.
The breath of fresh air, of just
being like, everybody's in the know.

Yeah.

Like, because there's so many conversations, we're
like, okay, like, I'm giving you a
printout. You gotta hide this. Like, nobody
can see it. Nobody. Like, now that
it's out there, it's like, now we
get to actually talk about it.

Yeah. Real conversations. So continue to take
this journey with us. We will continue
having conversation about what discipleship looks like
in our sermons, on between sermons, podcasts,
and just wherever. We are excited about
small groups. We're excited about our decent
See teams. We are about to go
to another level. I'm saying that discipleship

(01:13:48):
is bomb dot com. And so we're
excited you are taking this journey with
dot com.

Don't go to that website.

Don't go there.

Are we gonna get flagged on social
media now?

Oh, my God.

Podcast is gonna get taken.

Okay.

Way to kill the.

I think the Lord revealed to me.
My. My place here is to be
discipled by the guests and Pastor Brent
on this show every time I sit
down. So pray for me, guys. But
anyway, go back and listen to that
sermon. It was amazing. You can check
it out on YouTube and let us
know your thoughts. What did you say?

It's a great sermon. Go ahead.

Yeah, great sermon. Let us know your
thoughts. We are done. It's a wrap.
Have a good day. I try to
come here and just rest in my
maturity, and you guys always.

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