May 16, 2024 • 35 mins
Welcome to an incredibly eye-opening episode of the Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show, where host Ciara Cobb opens up a candid conversation with a wrongfully convicted individual who shares his heartfelt journey within the justice system. From police stations to court proceedings and the dreaded jail experience, this episode reveals systemic failures and prejudices within our criminal justice system. This engaging discussion also unveils various aspects of prosecutorial misconduct and imparts invaluable insights into the path towards exoneration.
In this thought-provoking edition, we expose a controversial narrative that challenges the flawed system of justice. It unfolds the struggles of an innocent man against wrongful conviction and manipulated evidence, while simultaneously investigating the actual criminal who has been terrorizing the neighborhood for years undetectedly. Despite glaring inconsistencies and strong links, the true perpetrator's involvement was purposely veiled, adding layers of deception to the already complex narrative.
Moving beyond the obvious betrayals, we further reveal the treacherous side of popular television. Notably, the 'Reasonable Doubt' show makers who brazenly exploited the trust of convicts and their families for viewer ratings, thereby furthering the cycle of nuanced injustice.
Exploring the complexities of legal and media misrepresentations, this episode amplifies the voices of the innocent caught in an unforgiving justice system. Gain firsthand insight into these unheard narratives, understand the uphill battle against wrongful convictions, and the heart-wrenching ripple effects of systemic flaws. Join us and become part of the movement for justice reform today.
Justin Lunsford Book Innocent While Incarcerated
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:12):
Welcome to Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show. I am your host, Ciara Cobb.
Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show is a space that is used to uplift the unheard
voices of the criminal and social justice issues that many face today.
Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy.
Music.
(00:55):
OK, well, just kind of talk to us about, you know, your your wrongful conviction
of how you became incarcerated.
And then we'll talk about, you know, your experience on a reasonable doubt.
Oh, yeah, for sure. So, well, I'm not sure how much you're already familiar
with or any of us would be familiar with, but I was just a normal guy.
(01:17):
My early 40s involved in boxing. I went home with somebody I didn't know and
wasn't aware of the things they had going on in their personal life.
He got on you know as a suspect he does all the last things with them until
they didn't pass away the next day the next evening actually,
it was the opening story on the local media every day for about a week if you
(01:38):
want to solve I did go and interview with police and tell them everything I
could and look I could help them,
and they put me home and everything was fine but then like a week later I got
they didn't find any other suspect or I don't know how they would explain themselves
or why they did what they did, but they arrested me.
And I was brought to this weird off-site location where my lawyers didn't know where I was.
(02:05):
Family didn't know where I was for some hours.
They took all my clothes, took back all my evidence, even though it kind of
happened a week earlier.
It seemed that they just did it to, so they could put me in a white paper suit,
and then they paraded me into the downtown village in Phoenix.
You know, I think the exit is probably the biggest city in the country, so it's a huge jail.
(02:31):
And then I thought I would at least get to go call my lawyer,
but they put me in a cell where there was no phone, and they left me there.
So I remember that was the first, when they came to my house and arrested me,
I was, I was kind of worried. I just thought, this is a misunderstanding.
They'll be able to figure it out. I'll be home in a couple days.
But I remember when they put me in that cell with no phone. I've been gone for hours you know,
(02:52):
where I was. That was the first one where I kind of got scared.
I don't know. No, I don't know. I can't say anything.
Right. So, I used to hear that Phoenix used to make people incarcerated,
especially in the jails, wear pink jumpsuits.
Is that still going on or is that a long thing?
I know, I know in, I know in Arizona they used to make the jail,
(03:18):
they used to make the jumpsuits were pink, I think, at one time.
Are they still like that?
Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't remember how it is now because before I've been in GOC for 13 years.
But back then, yeah, they made us wear the black and white stripes,
jumpsuits with pink boxers, pink socks.
And that was part of Sheriff Joe's humiliation campaign.
(03:41):
It was part of his political platform. for him. And those who don't know,
Sheriff Joe is still at Ohio.
He's, I don't know, he's pretty widely known. I'm not sure what state we're
in or how bad it is, but both people nationally know who he is. Yeah, we know who he is.
So tell us what happened when you went to court. Like, when you went, did you go to trial?
(04:04):
No. My first court appearance was with my state attorney who,
when I got out, throughout the week that I was being investigated for this i
called the lawyer that i already do because i had gotten by a few years earlier,
he represented me on that call and it all worked out we were happy to come down
and help me out the family gave me a first court date he would not let me talk
(04:28):
he said not to talk he said i'm just going to read this to you and i'm going
to talk he said don't talk at all because every,
room in this jail is booked for sound school visits so i listened he read a
partner's summary And then he said something like, and it made me feel like
people lose everything to regret, so it was really disappointing.
He did say something like, well, at least you didn't see the contrary issue of that book for you.
(04:51):
Wow. Now, he told me later, yeah, he told me later that he had known my prosecutors,
they were good, and that my prosecutor told him he did not think I committed the crime.
He only thought that I could go on about the crime, which I've always,
I don't know, it's rapid tutorial misconduct to prosecute someone for something
that you don't think they did.
(05:11):
But they were using it as a gesture to get information from me that I didn't have.
Exactly. So, the thing about, yeah, the thing about that lawyer is,
and, you know, after I had sat there for two months, and they had put me on
the news a bunch of times, and realized I didn't have any information in them,
it was too late for them to walk it back, so they just kept doing more shady
(05:32):
stuff, you know, railroad me.
That lawyer was not served by the FOP.
That's what I was about to ask.
Currently, there's another guy, he's like Sheriff Jones.
He later threw a fifth bar for abuse of power.
He's not even allowed to file bankruptcy for it or even do a divorce for it now.
(05:52):
But at that time, he had all the power over the biggest prosecutorial agency in the United States.
And he sought the death penalty in my case, which removed my private attorney,
who we had already given all the money to.
That attorney kept that money, and they appointed a public defender to my case.
How did that how did the public defender do how do you feel like he did or she,
(06:18):
the initial one she did she was really zealous about the law when she fought
a lot and argued a lot we got a one-minute warning so i'm gonna call right back
right now and i'll tell you all about what she did and why before they moved
her against my wishes and replaced her with a hatchet man Okay.
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we can go longer.
(06:45):
You're fine.
Go ahead. Okay, so Rena Clitso, she was a private attorney.
She was appointed to my case because the Office of Public Defense Services had
hired a whole bunch of private attorneys to get involved in cleaning up what
they call here the capital case crisis.
(07:05):
That district attorney I mentioned earlier, David Andrews, who was disbarred
for abuse of power, he had arbitrarily sought to condemn her in so many cases
that it had completely flooded the courts.
Everybody had huge backlogs and
delays that were violating everyone's constitutional right to condemn her.
But being with one of the private attorneys that were given government assistance
(07:28):
in helping up that mess, she was giving my face when she saw what was going on.
And she filed a bunch of motions having to do with legalities where oral arguments
were heard and she basically told the judge that what was happening was unconstitutional
and wrong and she was given certain promises when she was going to get to it
that were broken and she was afraid of violating her own ethical standards and losing her license.
(07:51):
And I was given a hearing shortly after that and all of this is really detailed
SHELDON DESCRIBES BUGGS FROM INTERNET REASON POLICE REPORTS IN A BOOK THAT I WROTE.
A secret hearing was held where I was not allowed to go to. They refused to
transport me, and then they told my son that I refused to be transported, which I didn't.
(08:14):
My family and I were very adamant about being every court date in the courtroom.
It was full every time I had a court date.
They didn't want anybody there. It's like the open minute, so nobody has ever
read the transcript from that day.
All I know is that Reno was fired by the judge. In my case, we're both done.
We played with public defender, real public defender, Rick Miller, Richard C. Miller.
(08:39):
Rick came in and made Fox really comfortable. He had just the awesomest demeanor
and personality that you could imagine. So comforting.
He told me, I told him in the very first meeting, I'm innocent.
I'm going to considerably, hopefully, just let them in for trial.
I had to tell him that because by then I had like only two things I'd been in
(09:00):
the jail for about a year and a half at that point.
He said, yeah, absolutely, you went along with it. He acted like that was cool.
A week before trial, told me we were gonna win for sure.
And then three days before my trial, they came in and it was icy cold.
I'd never seen this something before.
Told me that I was gonna get found guilty and I was gonna get executed.
(09:23):
And a meeting with my mom and dad and told them the same thing. And, and,
My second attorney, Marcy Patterson, who was another private attorney who was
appointed by the OTDS, she tried it and said that I could go to DOC and get a DNA test done.
And if the new condom-cell-electable-inventors body came back to her boyfriend,
(09:45):
this guy named Nate, a mysterious character named Nate, and I would be exonerated.
And they told me, Rick said, look, by law, a jury will have to acquit you because
there's no evidence that he committed any crimes.
He said, but in this county, they just won't. And I had seen it happen to guys
around me and I find out to know that what he was speaking was plausible.
(10:07):
And there was a guy who had been on death row for 15, 20 years at this point.
I was reading about the newspaper every day.
We had new DNA evidence that said him. His name was Douglas Grant.
At the last minute, the governor ordered him to be executed.
That's how they did away with his controversial case.
So that scared me and I knew that the danger that Rick was alluding to was real and my DNA.
(10:31):
That's done it's not right I knew for a fact it wasn't my DNA so I thought I
had an automatic for sure exoneration come in right after I got the DOC that's
how they told it to me you're gonna die if you don't you're gonna get out you're no so.
I didn't still didn't try to right away it was it was a lot of conversation
with my dad my family We were planning to go to the O.D.
(10:55):
To pursue the DNA results, which it was just shocking, upsetting.
The way the state argued against this, the way the courts denied it,
I began to realize that my attorneys were either just wrong or they had taken a lie to me. I didn't.
Ten years into my conviction, it occurred to me that I got a package from like
a Whittleblower or something in the doctor's office. It was a DNA match.
(11:19):
They had found the guy. He had been arrested a bunch of times.
It's opened up a whole new window of activity in my exoneration efforts,
and a lot of people got involved.
A lot of really great people who really did their job well are just good lawyers
and investigators. They're just hard people.
And they did everything they could. We all did everything we could.
(11:41):
And of course, Jill and I, our DNA, are argument for at least an evidentiary here.
Obviously, we're arguing for them to please exonerate me. to overturn the conviction,
to admit it, but as an alternative, he's at least going to have an evidentiary hearing.
They would not allow him to have an evidentiary hearing. They never granted one.
(12:03):
That would have been an opportunity to get everything on the record.
I noticed in Arizona that they tolerated quite a few people from 2005 to 2000.
Then it just stopped. It was like the state just stopped doing it.
And it was like they looked back at these cases, and I know some of them did,
and if they do, it's not communicated with them since then.
(12:23):
It's like if the state looks back at those and says, what did we do wrong?
Instead of saying, we convicted an innocent guy, or we feared evidence,
instead of pointing to that, what they did wrong, they say, well,
we should have never granted an evidentiary here. That's what we were all,
that's what the guy thought out.
So they just stopped ranking it, and they started covering it in this book.
Now, when the DNA came back to the sky, Nate Noble, and I think this is public
(12:47):
information anyway, said the book, Nate Noble.
Detective goes down there to interview him in regards to the DNA maps.
It's just eight years after the murder, which if this detective really thought
it was over, he had his bad guy, he wouldn't go interview this guy.
He didn't need to if the case really was closed.
But he went down there and he interviewed Noble. And when he walked in,
(13:10):
the first thing Noble said was, Are you here about the murder in 2008?
Didn't say hello, how you doing, nothing. That was his first question,
and they ended the interview pretty abruptly, and they covered it up ever since.
And this guy matching the composite sketch, the only islanders to this entire situation,
(13:31):
gave us a composite sketch and a description of exactly like him,
which looks nothing like me, because I have a round face and black hair,
just like I had a skinny face and bushy reddish brownish hair. Boom.
Reasonable doubt gets involved, we think that they're going to be the people
who finally do what's right here and expose this DNA match.
(13:52):
That was really the sole purpose of being involved. We want the world to see this DNA match.
That's been covered up. The DNA match is the actual person who has been terrorizing
for 10, 15 years, getting away with it because it looks like he's probably a
confidential informant.
They thought what he said in his police reports, and those are expensive too,
(14:12):
and many of those are quoted in the book as well, under the tact of the world of noble.
Thankfully, I knew a lawyer who had done a favor for the ex-police officer who
had the issue with his kids, so he then did her a favor by giving her these
reports, which were then given to me, and I included.
So all the information, in factual, reasonable doubt, that was a rough chapter.
(14:38):
It was really exciting at first. they bugged themselves into our family dynamic,
really deeply in a really warm manner and a few months of extensive emailing
and phone calls and meetings and conversations and everything they really gained our trust and,
at the end of the day they lied and said there was really no DNA in this thing
(15:01):
they wouldn't reveal the DNA match because when it got close to filming.
Producer Matt Masora told me that they are entertainment they're not news so that,
they're expected to follow privacy law to not reveal people's names people who
were not arrested which I knew was wrong because I've watched Big Line 48 hours
(15:23):
I've seen them all the time,
at that point it was too late to stop and I figured.
Ernest would seem to suspend anyway and
because we had to find out back in court so many times we kind of felt like
we didn't have any other option anyhow but But their dealings with us ended
up being definitely the most deep and complex manipulations that we've dealt
(15:47):
with this entire time, which is big volume.
Yeah. So it was really tough. It really got hard for me to not get to that,
but I really believed in that, really felt a lot of love there.
And that was a pretty devastating betrayal and just the dishonesty on screen
to deal with. So do you think that they just use cases to get viewers?
(16:14):
It's not about finding the truth. It's just kind of entertainment,
and they kind of put a spin on what they think viewers will engage in?
Yeah, well, we talked to them a lot about it, and they didn't want to talk to
us. One of them was my best friend.
It would include the end of the process. and basically what we come up with
(16:38):
because we couldn't figure out why they did what they did it was so baffling.
These TVs show it's business. They have to make money about ratings.
And any business has to bring in more profit than they have over time.
And reasonable documents model, as far as I understand, if you're innocent,
they'll hire you a lawyer.
Well, if they do that the first season, what about if they're innocent?
(17:01):
They can't afford to hire $10 million lawyers because that's what capital tax
or jury tax would require.
So I would guess going into each
season, and they know that they can only pick one or two, if that many.
Additional to that, I would say that, you know, typically I was,
Chris Anderson was a police, a career police officer, and I kind of wonder if
(17:24):
some of that has to do with, if some of the thinking has to do with that.
Because when they came out here, they would not allow my lawyer or other people
to be involved or talk to them or show them around to the spots where they were going.
But they allowed a CSO detective to escort them everywhere so he was involved
(17:46):
in their filming and helping them quote unquote understand the situation but
that UFO would not answer any questions without a P.I.C.
Camera and I was on the phone with the producer while I was with him and I asked
him he's asking these questions and the guy at the UFO I just would not agree
to answering questions without a camera but they still let him.
(18:09):
So what about the lady? I thought she was supposed to have been an attorney.
The one that was with the co-host with Chris.
Yeah. Good question. Well, we were just talking about this yesterday.
As soon as they walked out of filming, one of my family members called them.
They met up and the family member was basically like, what the heck was that?
(18:34):
What is going on here? And she said, hey, as a California attorney,
you know, I feel that this is a cartel situation, for sure.
But she wouldn't say that on camera. I don't know if she didn't want to put
the face of the people that I introduced this person to, the victim of this
case, their cartel-connected, Sinaloan people.
(18:56):
So that was a pretty popular theory. Good reason.
And she hoards that to a family member after filming. We were just talking about
how we wish we would have got that recorded so we could have at least put it on social media.
You know, that's frightening. I'm wondering now if she's an ally,
(19:18):
a help from her, but I just think that that's a weird combination to have an ex-detective,
you know, on Reasonable Doubt when he was already on A&E, first 48, you know what I mean?
So to me, that was just, it just struck me out. I never really watched it.
I watched like one episode. And then after that, I was like, nah, this is not.
(19:41):
I knew it was for entertainment because how are you on that side?
And all of a sudden you switch over to wanting to see if people are actually,
you know, innocent when I'm sure he's probably sent a lot of people to prison
that didn't do anything by being a detective. So, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Right now, so I will call back. What you just said.
(20:04):
You may begin speaking now. Hello? Yeah, go ahead.
So people always said about watching the show, your initial thoughts was exactly
the same thing my attorney at Fed told me.
Exactly the same thing that a lot of the feds that I know told me,
and like back on their TV.
(20:24):
They just said it looked like it was for entertainment, and one of them said
it looked like the Jerry's thing.
I obviously didn't know what they meant, because I've never seen it.
We don't have that channel in here.
But I knew within the first three or four minutes of talking to Chris,
that he was disincentivist.
And that was the first thing that was actually happened, because then I had
(20:46):
already sat down with some of my family members, and I have not demanded that
from my family members, and told them, you know, everybody, yeah,
let's go ahead and do this.
And it felt like I had nailed my family in allowing these people to infiltrate them.
So when they did, Chris's question made it obvious that he had looked at these facts.
I think one example is that we have the actual DNA results from the lab where
(21:10):
the person was tested to see if my DNA was on them.
And I requested these tests because I know I'm innocent.
And they came back and said, no, they weren't. Well, I'm on the phone with this,
and he said, oh, correct me if I'm wrong, but your DNA was found on an English
person. And I said, no, you are wrong.
And I'm thinking, how do we get this far without you even telling us?
(21:32):
How did we get to the day of filming and interviewing?
Tell me about that, that guy. Then I was like, oh no, it's a bitch of all those guys.
So like, oh, we've only got that detail probably from the FCSO detective that
was going in my house now.
So I heard, I did get to listen to the episode. I listened to the audio and
(21:53):
I did hear him say, oh, there wasn't really any DNA in this case.
And I was just tossed to hear somebody who has that kind of power with his voice
to mislead an entire audience that way because the DNA match,
this guy, he can't reason with Dr. LaValle because he thought they used a platform.
Well, you got to realize that Chris used to be, you know, an investigative homicide detective.
(22:18):
And before he was on Reasonable Doubt, he was on the first 48 as,
you know, the investigative detective in, I forgot, whatever state he was in
at the time when he was working.
So really, I think that this is my opinion that, you know, he hopped on that show.
I think A&E probably came to him and he hopped on that show to make more money
(22:39):
because, of course, A&E pays them. They pay them to be on the first 48.
I mean, I know a few states dropped out because they they felt like.
You know, they were making people seem guilty. And then when they go to court,
a lot of those people, the charges was dropped because they didn't have enough evidence.
And so, you know, a lot of it was they were doing it for TV.
(23:00):
And so a lot of the police departments did drop out. And so,
you know, that's how he thinks because he used to be a homicide investigator, you know what I mean?
So he doesn't think about, okay, well, maybe this person is really innocent.
That's what, when I first saw it, that's why I was like, I'm not watching this.
Like, I just watched this dude on the first 48.
And I saw how he worked on the first 48. So how do you flip-flop that fast?
(23:24):
He'd be like, oh, well, let me figure out if these people are really innocent
or, you know, is there any reasonable doubt?
When I'm sure that he's probably sent a lot of people to prison that didn't
do anything because of his investigative, you know, jackups and things of that nature.
And then I just thought it was weird instead of having, you know,
an actual investigator, like a private investigator in Fatima, they had him.
(23:47):
So those two combinations together just did not, in my opinion,
just did not go together. So that's, I think I watched one episode.
I don't even think I got through the whole episode. Like I just read through
it the first like 10 minutes of it. I'm like, no, no, they're not here to help anybody.
They're just here for TV. Like this is, I don't, I don't like for people to
(24:08):
play on people because that's what's really going on in this movement.
They're playing on people and using people who are innocent to get more clout for themselves.
And yet and still, you know, you have people that are still incarcerated.
They still haven't got help. They got all this exposure, but they're still incarcerated.
You know what I'm saying? So, you know, that's why I did my platform because
(24:30):
my platform is for the incarcerated to tell their story because their story is never told.
It's only told through what the prosecutors and the news want to tell,
but it's never their side of the story of what really happened.
So that's why I made my platform. My husband's incarcerated for the same thing, for.
It was a capital murder case. He didn't do it. You know, he wasn't even in the house when it happened.
(24:52):
He was outside, had no idea. You know, he was just with the wrong people at
the wrong, basically at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up getting
charged with capital murder.
And he was the very first one they tried. They told him the same thing.
His defense attorney told him the same thing. Well, if you go to,
he said, well, he said, I'll put on the best show that I can put on,
but you're going to get found guilty and you're going to get the death penalty.
(25:14):
He said, so sign this plea deal because I'd rather for you to come home than not to come home.
And I hear that so much from everybody. And on top of his public defender was
playing golf with the DA.
So to me, that's conflict of interest.
You should never, they should never be playing golf when they're actually doing a case.
(25:36):
You know what I'm saying? like if your friends you know after but like while
you're going through that case there should be no contact because to me that's
conflict of interest you don't know what they're talking about on that golf
golf course they'd be making deals left and right with one another exactly exactly
and here in arizona we're in north carolina.
(26:01):
I got a quote in my book about an attorney magazine where the public defender
here was saying at that time,
he says, we are happy to announce we now work at full park law enforcement agencies
at the county attorney's office to ensure that what it does is done for the public.
So how can you get representation when your counselors work with the people
(26:26):
who are trying to take your life it's insane.
You can't. It's not fair. That's why I say it's not. It's never been a fair justice system.
There's no fairness to it at all because you are convicting people who haven't done anything.
And then the people that have done something are out on the street or they get less time or it's just.
(26:46):
So how long did you actually get through the plea deal?
I've had 22 total, 23, but I would get out to 22.
First thing is now that I said I was back and I look at my public defender and
I realize, you know what he's talking about?
But that might be the only reason I'm going home. Because of the shady stuff he did.
It was like what he did to me was like tough love. Like a full-length case.
(27:08):
He did really have love for me.
He knew the symptoms that I was better with. I didn't know. He did.
42. I'm like still healthy. I have everything I need. I'll be gone in a few years.
That, like, that I'm actually going to have a pretty good life. With this crazy.
But still you they can't give you back what
(27:28):
they've already taken from you for something you didn't do i
have what i have because i don't know if you
know if you believe in god or anything but i do i think it's best when we're
not wrong by people and entities the you know institutions here that you see
that if you chop in your hand and do things right if you think this way you
(27:48):
have a way of going around all the instructions to give us the blessings that
we really need Mm hmm. Absolutely.
But but God, you know, he'll write that wrong. It might not be the way that
we want or the way that we expected, but he will always write that wrong.
(28:09):
Wrong and you know even though you've you know you've spent a lot of your time
incarcerated it probably has made you a better person and then you'll be able
to fight the system you will be able to come out and and know how to fight the
system and help other people who are going through that,
And that's why, you know, I do a lot of advocacy. I do a lot of pretrial advocacy
(28:31):
and try to teach people how to do that because it's important to have outside
eyes to bring in what's going on.
Like I had this one guy who had the exact same charge, capital murder.
And what I did was I showed up to all of his court cases and we did two press conferences.
We did one with the family and then we did one with the organization I was working
(28:52):
with. And just honestly, I think by putting his family on there and the people
seeing his family cry, when he went to trial, he was found not guilty.
Like they had absolutely no evidence on him either. But if I think that if we
wouldn't have done that and I wouldn't have been there to put pressure on the
state, that he probably would have been found guilty of capital murder and,
you know, could have faced the death penalty.
(29:14):
That's objective and it's not emotional because we're dealing with people.
Those things matter. Mm hmm. Yeah, it does. does is to ensure that there is
some type of fairness, because if not, there's not going to be any type of fairness.
But the good thing about it was that his attorney knew he didn't do it.
He knew he needed outside help. And he was like, look, we need outside help. He didn't do it.
(29:36):
And, you know, we need for somebody to make noise on the outside.
And that's that's what probably saved his life. I mean, he got a plea deal,
but I mean, it was like 14 years, you know, he'd already done six. So he only has to do nine.
So it's still better than, you know life well there's a book titled why innocent
people plead guilty which is written by a sitting young federal judge zed raycock
(30:00):
i don't know if you've ever heard him in but,
there's the fact that very they book by a judge about why the people plead guilty
he's in a problem it does and a lot of people don't understand why people plead
guilty it's it's several things a lot of times you know you're you're misled
you're misled by your you're supposed to be attorney.
That's, you know, I guess maybe they feel like they just can't fight the system,
(30:24):
but I feel like if you're an attorney, then you, you have to stand up and fight
no matter what, you know, like this one guy I read,
he said it took his defense, his public defender 10 years to uncover the prosecutorial
misconduct, but he did not stop until he was able to uncover it. He got that guy out.
Yeah. Yeah. It's very rare.
(30:45):
So, you know, I hope to be like that. I'm currently I'm currently going to school
now for criminal justice and want to go to be a lawyer because it's just too
many people who are just suffering for no reason and being convicted for something that they didn't do.
So, you know, I want to be one of those fierce advocates that don't give up
no matter what, no matter what the state comes with. You know,
I'm coming right back at them.
(31:07):
Yeah, I want to use my strength, my energy, my youth, my assets to help when I get out.
And when I walk out, I definitely want to be big on exposure. I will have a platform.
I've thought about trying to help create something similar to a Dr.
Spodger or a Lock Playmate or something like that.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do yet, but I've already got the book.
(31:30):
I've already got a friend in TV.
I've got a drone screen. I don't know. Did you get a drone screen?
I think your brother's supposed to be sending it over.
Or sending my information. Okay.
And she's doing... It ends up being a really good vehicle to take people through
(31:52):
all the different problems because it was just an exit of a lot of different types of corruption.
But she's doing... She's going to do multiple seasons just about this phase.
She's gone through a lot of lengths to make sure it's really high-level production
option with people who can help her like that she would love to talk to you i told her about you.
Send the information over so definitely help
(32:15):
help you out because there aren't enough people fighting that fight there isn't
yeah let's definitely keep in contact i can download uh securist or jpay and
we can you know message back and forth but yeah let's keep in contact i mean
because the only way to tackle the system is it's got to be a larger movement than what they have
you know what i mean you have to come together and
(32:36):
one minute were you ever
were you ever yes and i'm gonna get
it yes okay i'm gonna save it if you don't have time if you're asking you send
it to your own friend but it's helpful and also there's a book called why did
justice read back i didn't mark them yep i've heard of it i haven't read it
(32:57):
but i heard of it you gotta read Anyone involved in the Harrison book,
they have to read this book. I will.
We're out of time. If you want to talk again, anytime, let me know.
Thank you so much, Justin. You have a good one. Well,
Black Light, I have brought you another story of the harms of the justice system,
(33:21):
how people get caught up in the system who are wrongfully convicted,
and how there seems to be no justice, as you heard.
He had great lawyers. He was able to.
That were able, I'm sorry, to try to work on his behalf to get him an evidentiary
hearing. And you see it was denied.
This is why we do what we do to continue to bring education about the harms
(33:45):
of the system and how so many people get caught up in the system over nonsense
and how there's just so much injustice and there's no such thing as a justice system.
Because when you You are incarcerating people and wrongfully convicting them
for something they did not do.
It is a tragedy. It really is.
(34:08):
And to hear his story and to know that he did all he could to try to free himself
and wasn't able to do that, even having good attorneys and doing stories on reasonable doubt.
They just took his story and used it for their gain. They weren't really trying
to help him. So you just have to be careful.
We have to continue to educate ourselves and
(34:32):
stay informed and this is why We must stay on top of the justice system and
know that we will not continue to allow them to falsely incarcerate our people
For something they did not do make sure if you're incarcerating people that
you have the right person for the crime I mean you heard him.
He said that they found the guy that committed the crime he's
(34:53):
still serving time and looks like he's going to serve his whole sentence and
you can't get that back when you have 20 some years of your life taken away
from you you can't get that back you know what I mean and so please black light
I urge y'all to stay vigilant stay on top of things,
one last reminder before I go we have a YouTube channel please go over there
(35:16):
like subscribe and share.
We have a lot of in-person interviews on there.
I know a lot of you are listening on some type of podcast platform,
but we do have in-person interviews.
So please go over there and like and subscribe and share. We're trying to get our followers there.
Until the next time, peace and love.
Music.
(00:12):
Welcome to Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show. I am your host, Ciara Cobb.
Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show is a space that is used to uplift the unheard
voices of the criminal and social justice issues that many face today.
Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy.
Music.
(00:55):
OK, well, just kind of talk to us about, you know, your your wrongful conviction
of how you became incarcerated.
And then we'll talk about, you know, your experience on a reasonable doubt.
Oh, yeah, for sure. So, well, I'm not sure how much you're already familiar
with or any of us would be familiar with, but I was just a normal guy.
(01:17):
My early 40s involved in boxing. I went home with somebody I didn't know and
wasn't aware of the things they had going on in their personal life.
He got on you know as a suspect he does all the last things with them until
they didn't pass away the next day the next evening actually,
it was the opening story on the local media every day for about a week if you
(01:38):
want to solve I did go and interview with police and tell them everything I
could and look I could help them,
and they put me home and everything was fine but then like a week later I got
they didn't find any other suspect or I don't know how they would explain themselves
or why they did what they did, but they arrested me.
And I was brought to this weird off-site location where my lawyers didn't know where I was.
(02:05):
Family didn't know where I was for some hours.
They took all my clothes, took back all my evidence, even though it kind of
happened a week earlier.
It seemed that they just did it to, so they could put me in a white paper suit,
and then they paraded me into the downtown village in Phoenix.
You know, I think the exit is probably the biggest city in the country, so it's a huge jail.
(02:31):
And then I thought I would at least get to go call my lawyer,
but they put me in a cell where there was no phone, and they left me there.
So I remember that was the first, when they came to my house and arrested me,
I was, I was kind of worried. I just thought, this is a misunderstanding.
They'll be able to figure it out. I'll be home in a couple days.
But I remember when they put me in that cell with no phone. I've been gone for hours you know,
(02:52):
where I was. That was the first one where I kind of got scared.
I don't know. No, I don't know. I can't say anything.
Right. So, I used to hear that Phoenix used to make people incarcerated,
especially in the jails, wear pink jumpsuits.
Is that still going on or is that a long thing?
I know, I know in, I know in Arizona they used to make the jail,
(03:18):
they used to make the jumpsuits were pink, I think, at one time.
Are they still like that?
Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't remember how it is now because before I've been in GOC for 13 years.
But back then, yeah, they made us wear the black and white stripes,
jumpsuits with pink boxers, pink socks.
And that was part of Sheriff Joe's humiliation campaign.
(03:41):
It was part of his political platform. for him. And those who don't know,
Sheriff Joe is still at Ohio.
He's, I don't know, he's pretty widely known. I'm not sure what state we're
in or how bad it is, but both people nationally know who he is. Yeah, we know who he is.
So tell us what happened when you went to court. Like, when you went, did you go to trial?
(04:04):
No. My first court appearance was with my state attorney who,
when I got out, throughout the week that I was being investigated for this i
called the lawyer that i already do because i had gotten by a few years earlier,
he represented me on that call and it all worked out we were happy to come down
and help me out the family gave me a first court date he would not let me talk
(04:28):
he said not to talk he said i'm just going to read this to you and i'm going
to talk he said don't talk at all because every,
room in this jail is booked for sound school visits so i listened he read a
partner's summary And then he said something like, and it made me feel like
people lose everything to regret, so it was really disappointing.
He did say something like, well, at least you didn't see the contrary issue of that book for you.
(04:51):
Wow. Now, he told me later, yeah, he told me later that he had known my prosecutors,
they were good, and that my prosecutor told him he did not think I committed the crime.
He only thought that I could go on about the crime, which I've always,
I don't know, it's rapid tutorial misconduct to prosecute someone for something
that you don't think they did.
(05:11):
But they were using it as a gesture to get information from me that I didn't have.
Exactly. So, the thing about, yeah, the thing about that lawyer is,
and, you know, after I had sat there for two months, and they had put me on
the news a bunch of times, and realized I didn't have any information in them,
it was too late for them to walk it back, so they just kept doing more shady
(05:32):
stuff, you know, railroad me.
That lawyer was not served by the FOP.
That's what I was about to ask.
Currently, there's another guy, he's like Sheriff Jones.
He later threw a fifth bar for abuse of power.
He's not even allowed to file bankruptcy for it or even do a divorce for it now.
(05:52):
But at that time, he had all the power over the biggest prosecutorial agency in the United States.
And he sought the death penalty in my case, which removed my private attorney,
who we had already given all the money to.
That attorney kept that money, and they appointed a public defender to my case.
How did that how did the public defender do how do you feel like he did or she,
(06:18):
the initial one she did she was really zealous about the law when she fought
a lot and argued a lot we got a one-minute warning so i'm gonna call right back
right now and i'll tell you all about what she did and why before they moved
her against my wishes and replaced her with a hatchet man Okay.
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we can go longer.
(06:45):
You're fine.
Go ahead. Okay, so Rena Clitso, she was a private attorney.
She was appointed to my case because the Office of Public Defense Services had
hired a whole bunch of private attorneys to get involved in cleaning up what
they call here the capital case crisis.
(07:05):
That district attorney I mentioned earlier, David Andrews, who was disbarred
for abuse of power, he had arbitrarily sought to condemn her in so many cases
that it had completely flooded the courts.
Everybody had huge backlogs and
delays that were violating everyone's constitutional right to condemn her.
But being with one of the private attorneys that were given government assistance
(07:28):
in helping up that mess, she was giving my face when she saw what was going on.
And she filed a bunch of motions having to do with legalities where oral arguments
were heard and she basically told the judge that what was happening was unconstitutional
and wrong and she was given certain promises when she was going to get to it
that were broken and she was afraid of violating her own ethical standards and losing her license.
(07:51):
And I was given a hearing shortly after that and all of this is really detailed
SHELDON DESCRIBES BUGGS FROM INTERNET REASON POLICE REPORTS IN A BOOK THAT I WROTE.
A secret hearing was held where I was not allowed to go to. They refused to
transport me, and then they told my son that I refused to be transported, which I didn't.
(08:14):
My family and I were very adamant about being every court date in the courtroom.
It was full every time I had a court date.
They didn't want anybody there. It's like the open minute, so nobody has ever
read the transcript from that day.
All I know is that Reno was fired by the judge. In my case, we're both done.
We played with public defender, real public defender, Rick Miller, Richard C. Miller.
(08:39):
Rick came in and made Fox really comfortable. He had just the awesomest demeanor
and personality that you could imagine. So comforting.
He told me, I told him in the very first meeting, I'm innocent.
I'm going to considerably, hopefully, just let them in for trial.
I had to tell him that because by then I had like only two things I'd been in
(09:00):
the jail for about a year and a half at that point.
He said, yeah, absolutely, you went along with it. He acted like that was cool.
A week before trial, told me we were gonna win for sure.
And then three days before my trial, they came in and it was icy cold.
I'd never seen this something before.
Told me that I was gonna get found guilty and I was gonna get executed.
(09:23):
And a meeting with my mom and dad and told them the same thing. And, and,
My second attorney, Marcy Patterson, who was another private attorney who was
appointed by the OTDS, she tried it and said that I could go to DOC and get a DNA test done.
And if the new condom-cell-electable-inventors body came back to her boyfriend,
(09:45):
this guy named Nate, a mysterious character named Nate, and I would be exonerated.
And they told me, Rick said, look, by law, a jury will have to acquit you because
there's no evidence that he committed any crimes.
He said, but in this county, they just won't. And I had seen it happen to guys
around me and I find out to know that what he was speaking was plausible.
(10:07):
And there was a guy who had been on death row for 15, 20 years at this point.
I was reading about the newspaper every day.
We had new DNA evidence that said him. His name was Douglas Grant.
At the last minute, the governor ordered him to be executed.
That's how they did away with his controversial case.
So that scared me and I knew that the danger that Rick was alluding to was real and my DNA.
(10:31):
That's done it's not right I knew for a fact it wasn't my DNA so I thought I
had an automatic for sure exoneration come in right after I got the DOC that's
how they told it to me you're gonna die if you don't you're gonna get out you're no so.
I didn't still didn't try to right away it was it was a lot of conversation
with my dad my family We were planning to go to the O.D.
(10:55):
To pursue the DNA results, which it was just shocking, upsetting.
The way the state argued against this, the way the courts denied it,
I began to realize that my attorneys were either just wrong or they had taken a lie to me. I didn't.
Ten years into my conviction, it occurred to me that I got a package from like
a Whittleblower or something in the doctor's office. It was a DNA match.
(11:19):
They had found the guy. He had been arrested a bunch of times.
It's opened up a whole new window of activity in my exoneration efforts,
and a lot of people got involved.
A lot of really great people who really did their job well are just good lawyers
and investigators. They're just hard people.
And they did everything they could. We all did everything we could.
(11:41):
And of course, Jill and I, our DNA, are argument for at least an evidentiary here.
Obviously, we're arguing for them to please exonerate me. to overturn the conviction,
to admit it, but as an alternative, he's at least going to have an evidentiary hearing.
They would not allow him to have an evidentiary hearing. They never granted one.
(12:03):
That would have been an opportunity to get everything on the record.
I noticed in Arizona that they tolerated quite a few people from 2005 to 2000.
Then it just stopped. It was like the state just stopped doing it.
And it was like they looked back at these cases, and I know some of them did,
and if they do, it's not communicated with them since then.
(12:23):
It's like if the state looks back at those and says, what did we do wrong?
Instead of saying, we convicted an innocent guy, or we feared evidence,
instead of pointing to that, what they did wrong, they say, well,
we should have never granted an evidentiary here. That's what we were all,
that's what the guy thought out.
So they just stopped ranking it, and they started covering it in this book.
Now, when the DNA came back to the sky, Nate Noble, and I think this is public
(12:47):
information anyway, said the book, Nate Noble.
Detective goes down there to interview him in regards to the DNA maps.
It's just eight years after the murder, which if this detective really thought
it was over, he had his bad guy, he wouldn't go interview this guy.
He didn't need to if the case really was closed.
But he went down there and he interviewed Noble. And when he walked in,
(13:10):
the first thing Noble said was, Are you here about the murder in 2008?
Didn't say hello, how you doing, nothing. That was his first question,
and they ended the interview pretty abruptly, and they covered it up ever since.
And this guy matching the composite sketch, the only islanders to this entire situation,
(13:31):
gave us a composite sketch and a description of exactly like him,
which looks nothing like me, because I have a round face and black hair,
just like I had a skinny face and bushy reddish brownish hair. Boom.
Reasonable doubt gets involved, we think that they're going to be the people
who finally do what's right here and expose this DNA match.
(13:52):
That was really the sole purpose of being involved. We want the world to see this DNA match.
That's been covered up. The DNA match is the actual person who has been terrorizing
for 10, 15 years, getting away with it because it looks like he's probably a
confidential informant.
They thought what he said in his police reports, and those are expensive too,
(14:12):
and many of those are quoted in the book as well, under the tact of the world of noble.
Thankfully, I knew a lawyer who had done a favor for the ex-police officer who
had the issue with his kids, so he then did her a favor by giving her these
reports, which were then given to me, and I included.
So all the information, in factual, reasonable doubt, that was a rough chapter.
(14:38):
It was really exciting at first. they bugged themselves into our family dynamic,
really deeply in a really warm manner and a few months of extensive emailing
and phone calls and meetings and conversations and everything they really gained our trust and,
at the end of the day they lied and said there was really no DNA in this thing
(15:01):
they wouldn't reveal the DNA match because when it got close to filming.
Producer Matt Masora told me that they are entertainment they're not news so that,
they're expected to follow privacy law to not reveal people's names people who
were not arrested which I knew was wrong because I've watched Big Line 48 hours
(15:23):
I've seen them all the time,
at that point it was too late to stop and I figured.
Ernest would seem to suspend anyway and
because we had to find out back in court so many times we kind of felt like
we didn't have any other option anyhow but But their dealings with us ended
up being definitely the most deep and complex manipulations that we've dealt
(15:47):
with this entire time, which is big volume.
Yeah. So it was really tough. It really got hard for me to not get to that,
but I really believed in that, really felt a lot of love there.
And that was a pretty devastating betrayal and just the dishonesty on screen
to deal with. So do you think that they just use cases to get viewers?
(16:14):
It's not about finding the truth. It's just kind of entertainment,
and they kind of put a spin on what they think viewers will engage in?
Yeah, well, we talked to them a lot about it, and they didn't want to talk to
us. One of them was my best friend.
It would include the end of the process. and basically what we come up with
(16:38):
because we couldn't figure out why they did what they did it was so baffling.
These TVs show it's business. They have to make money about ratings.
And any business has to bring in more profit than they have over time.
And reasonable documents model, as far as I understand, if you're innocent,
they'll hire you a lawyer.
Well, if they do that the first season, what about if they're innocent?
(17:01):
They can't afford to hire $10 million lawyers because that's what capital tax
or jury tax would require.
So I would guess going into each
season, and they know that they can only pick one or two, if that many.
Additional to that, I would say that, you know, typically I was,
Chris Anderson was a police, a career police officer, and I kind of wonder if
(17:24):
some of that has to do with, if some of the thinking has to do with that.
Because when they came out here, they would not allow my lawyer or other people
to be involved or talk to them or show them around to the spots where they were going.
But they allowed a CSO detective to escort them everywhere so he was involved
(17:46):
in their filming and helping them quote unquote understand the situation but
that UFO would not answer any questions without a P.I.C.
Camera and I was on the phone with the producer while I was with him and I asked
him he's asking these questions and the guy at the UFO I just would not agree
to answering questions without a camera but they still let him.
(18:09):
So what about the lady? I thought she was supposed to have been an attorney.
The one that was with the co-host with Chris.
Yeah. Good question. Well, we were just talking about this yesterday.
As soon as they walked out of filming, one of my family members called them.
They met up and the family member was basically like, what the heck was that?
(18:34):
What is going on here? And she said, hey, as a California attorney,
you know, I feel that this is a cartel situation, for sure.
But she wouldn't say that on camera. I don't know if she didn't want to put
the face of the people that I introduced this person to, the victim of this
case, their cartel-connected, Sinaloan people.
(18:56):
So that was a pretty popular theory. Good reason.
And she hoards that to a family member after filming. We were just talking about
how we wish we would have got that recorded so we could have at least put it on social media.
You know, that's frightening. I'm wondering now if she's an ally,
(19:18):
a help from her, but I just think that that's a weird combination to have an ex-detective,
you know, on Reasonable Doubt when he was already on A&E, first 48, you know what I mean?
So to me, that was just, it just struck me out. I never really watched it.
I watched like one episode. And then after that, I was like, nah, this is not.
(19:41):
I knew it was for entertainment because how are you on that side?
And all of a sudden you switch over to wanting to see if people are actually,
you know, innocent when I'm sure he's probably sent a lot of people to prison
that didn't do anything by being a detective. So, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Right now, so I will call back. What you just said.
(20:04):
You may begin speaking now. Hello? Yeah, go ahead.
So people always said about watching the show, your initial thoughts was exactly
the same thing my attorney at Fed told me.
Exactly the same thing that a lot of the feds that I know told me,
and like back on their TV.
(20:24):
They just said it looked like it was for entertainment, and one of them said
it looked like the Jerry's thing.
I obviously didn't know what they meant, because I've never seen it.
We don't have that channel in here.
But I knew within the first three or four minutes of talking to Chris,
that he was disincentivist.
And that was the first thing that was actually happened, because then I had
(20:46):
already sat down with some of my family members, and I have not demanded that
from my family members, and told them, you know, everybody, yeah,
let's go ahead and do this.
And it felt like I had nailed my family in allowing these people to infiltrate them.
So when they did, Chris's question made it obvious that he had looked at these facts.
I think one example is that we have the actual DNA results from the lab where
(21:10):
the person was tested to see if my DNA was on them.
And I requested these tests because I know I'm innocent.
And they came back and said, no, they weren't. Well, I'm on the phone with this,
and he said, oh, correct me if I'm wrong, but your DNA was found on an English
person. And I said, no, you are wrong.
And I'm thinking, how do we get this far without you even telling us?
(21:32):
How did we get to the day of filming and interviewing?
Tell me about that, that guy. Then I was like, oh no, it's a bitch of all those guys.
So like, oh, we've only got that detail probably from the FCSO detective that
was going in my house now.
So I heard, I did get to listen to the episode. I listened to the audio and
(21:53):
I did hear him say, oh, there wasn't really any DNA in this case.
And I was just tossed to hear somebody who has that kind of power with his voice
to mislead an entire audience that way because the DNA match,
this guy, he can't reason with Dr. LaValle because he thought they used a platform.
Well, you got to realize that Chris used to be, you know, an investigative homicide detective.
(22:18):
And before he was on Reasonable Doubt, he was on the first 48 as,
you know, the investigative detective in, I forgot, whatever state he was in
at the time when he was working.
So really, I think that this is my opinion that, you know, he hopped on that show.
I think A&E probably came to him and he hopped on that show to make more money
(22:39):
because, of course, A&E pays them. They pay them to be on the first 48.
I mean, I know a few states dropped out because they they felt like.
You know, they were making people seem guilty. And then when they go to court,
a lot of those people, the charges was dropped because they didn't have enough evidence.
And so, you know, a lot of it was they were doing it for TV.
(23:00):
And so a lot of the police departments did drop out. And so,
you know, that's how he thinks because he used to be a homicide investigator, you know what I mean?
So he doesn't think about, okay, well, maybe this person is really innocent.
That's what, when I first saw it, that's why I was like, I'm not watching this.
Like, I just watched this dude on the first 48.
And I saw how he worked on the first 48. So how do you flip-flop that fast?
(23:24):
He'd be like, oh, well, let me figure out if these people are really innocent
or, you know, is there any reasonable doubt?
When I'm sure that he's probably sent a lot of people to prison that didn't
do anything because of his investigative, you know, jackups and things of that nature.
And then I just thought it was weird instead of having, you know,
an actual investigator, like a private investigator in Fatima, they had him.
(23:47):
So those two combinations together just did not, in my opinion,
just did not go together. So that's, I think I watched one episode.
I don't even think I got through the whole episode. Like I just read through
it the first like 10 minutes of it. I'm like, no, no, they're not here to help anybody.
They're just here for TV. Like this is, I don't, I don't like for people to
(24:08):
play on people because that's what's really going on in this movement.
They're playing on people and using people who are innocent to get more clout for themselves.
And yet and still, you know, you have people that are still incarcerated.
They still haven't got help. They got all this exposure, but they're still incarcerated.
You know what I'm saying? So, you know, that's why I did my platform because
(24:30):
my platform is for the incarcerated to tell their story because their story is never told.
It's only told through what the prosecutors and the news want to tell,
but it's never their side of the story of what really happened.
So that's why I made my platform. My husband's incarcerated for the same thing, for.
It was a capital murder case. He didn't do it. You know, he wasn't even in the house when it happened.
(24:52):
He was outside, had no idea. You know, he was just with the wrong people at
the wrong, basically at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up getting
charged with capital murder.
And he was the very first one they tried. They told him the same thing.
His defense attorney told him the same thing. Well, if you go to,
he said, well, he said, I'll put on the best show that I can put on,
but you're going to get found guilty and you're going to get the death penalty.
(25:14):
He said, so sign this plea deal because I'd rather for you to come home than not to come home.
And I hear that so much from everybody. And on top of his public defender was
playing golf with the DA.
So to me, that's conflict of interest.
You should never, they should never be playing golf when they're actually doing a case.
(25:36):
You know what I'm saying? like if your friends you know after but like while
you're going through that case there should be no contact because to me that's
conflict of interest you don't know what they're talking about on that golf
golf course they'd be making deals left and right with one another exactly exactly
and here in arizona we're in north carolina.
(26:01):
I got a quote in my book about an attorney magazine where the public defender
here was saying at that time,
he says, we are happy to announce we now work at full park law enforcement agencies
at the county attorney's office to ensure that what it does is done for the public.
So how can you get representation when your counselors work with the people
(26:26):
who are trying to take your life it's insane.
You can't. It's not fair. That's why I say it's not. It's never been a fair justice system.
There's no fairness to it at all because you are convicting people who haven't done anything.
And then the people that have done something are out on the street or they get less time or it's just.
(26:46):
So how long did you actually get through the plea deal?
I've had 22 total, 23, but I would get out to 22.
First thing is now that I said I was back and I look at my public defender and
I realize, you know what he's talking about?
But that might be the only reason I'm going home. Because of the shady stuff he did.
It was like what he did to me was like tough love. Like a full-length case.
(27:08):
He did really have love for me.
He knew the symptoms that I was better with. I didn't know. He did.
42. I'm like still healthy. I have everything I need. I'll be gone in a few years.
That, like, that I'm actually going to have a pretty good life. With this crazy.
But still you they can't give you back what
(27:28):
they've already taken from you for something you didn't do i
have what i have because i don't know if you
know if you believe in god or anything but i do i think it's best when we're
not wrong by people and entities the you know institutions here that you see
that if you chop in your hand and do things right if you think this way you
(27:48):
have a way of going around all the instructions to give us the blessings that
we really need Mm hmm. Absolutely.
But but God, you know, he'll write that wrong. It might not be the way that
we want or the way that we expected, but he will always write that wrong.
(28:09):
Wrong and you know even though you've you know you've spent a lot of your time
incarcerated it probably has made you a better person and then you'll be able
to fight the system you will be able to come out and and know how to fight the
system and help other people who are going through that,
And that's why, you know, I do a lot of advocacy. I do a lot of pretrial advocacy
(28:31):
and try to teach people how to do that because it's important to have outside
eyes to bring in what's going on.
Like I had this one guy who had the exact same charge, capital murder.
And what I did was I showed up to all of his court cases and we did two press conferences.
We did one with the family and then we did one with the organization I was working
(28:52):
with. And just honestly, I think by putting his family on there and the people
seeing his family cry, when he went to trial, he was found not guilty.
Like they had absolutely no evidence on him either. But if I think that if we
wouldn't have done that and I wouldn't have been there to put pressure on the
state, that he probably would have been found guilty of capital murder and,
you know, could have faced the death penalty.
(29:14):
That's objective and it's not emotional because we're dealing with people.
Those things matter. Mm hmm. Yeah, it does. does is to ensure that there is
some type of fairness, because if not, there's not going to be any type of fairness.
But the good thing about it was that his attorney knew he didn't do it.
He knew he needed outside help. And he was like, look, we need outside help. He didn't do it.
(29:36):
And, you know, we need for somebody to make noise on the outside.
And that's that's what probably saved his life. I mean, he got a plea deal,
but I mean, it was like 14 years, you know, he'd already done six. So he only has to do nine.
So it's still better than, you know life well there's a book titled why innocent
people plead guilty which is written by a sitting young federal judge zed raycock
(30:00):
i don't know if you've ever heard him in but,
there's the fact that very they book by a judge about why the people plead guilty
he's in a problem it does and a lot of people don't understand why people plead
guilty it's it's several things a lot of times you know you're you're misled
you're misled by your you're supposed to be attorney.
That's, you know, I guess maybe they feel like they just can't fight the system,
(30:24):
but I feel like if you're an attorney, then you, you have to stand up and fight
no matter what, you know, like this one guy I read,
he said it took his defense, his public defender 10 years to uncover the prosecutorial
misconduct, but he did not stop until he was able to uncover it. He got that guy out.
Yeah. Yeah. It's very rare.
(30:45):
So, you know, I hope to be like that. I'm currently I'm currently going to school
now for criminal justice and want to go to be a lawyer because it's just too
many people who are just suffering for no reason and being convicted for something that they didn't do.
So, you know, I want to be one of those fierce advocates that don't give up
no matter what, no matter what the state comes with. You know,
I'm coming right back at them.
(31:07):
Yeah, I want to use my strength, my energy, my youth, my assets to help when I get out.
And when I walk out, I definitely want to be big on exposure. I will have a platform.
I've thought about trying to help create something similar to a Dr.
Spodger or a Lock Playmate or something like that.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do yet, but I've already got the book.
(31:30):
I've already got a friend in TV.
I've got a drone screen. I don't know. Did you get a drone screen?
I think your brother's supposed to be sending it over.
Or sending my information. Okay.
And she's doing... It ends up being a really good vehicle to take people through
(31:52):
all the different problems because it was just an exit of a lot of different types of corruption.
But she's doing... She's going to do multiple seasons just about this phase.
She's gone through a lot of lengths to make sure it's really high-level production
option with people who can help her like that she would love to talk to you i told her about you.
Send the information over so definitely help
(32:15):
help you out because there aren't enough people fighting that fight there isn't
yeah let's definitely keep in contact i can download uh securist or jpay and
we can you know message back and forth but yeah let's keep in contact i mean
because the only way to tackle the system is it's got to be a larger movement than what they have
you know what i mean you have to come together and
(32:36):
one minute were you ever
were you ever yes and i'm gonna get
it yes okay i'm gonna save it if you don't have time if you're asking you send
it to your own friend but it's helpful and also there's a book called why did
justice read back i didn't mark them yep i've heard of it i haven't read it
(32:57):
but i heard of it you gotta read Anyone involved in the Harrison book,
they have to read this book. I will.
We're out of time. If you want to talk again, anytime, let me know.
Thank you so much, Justin. You have a good one. Well,
Black Light, I have brought you another story of the harms of the justice system,
(33:21):
how people get caught up in the system who are wrongfully convicted,
and how there seems to be no justice, as you heard.
He had great lawyers. He was able to.
That were able, I'm sorry, to try to work on his behalf to get him an evidentiary
hearing. And you see it was denied.
This is why we do what we do to continue to bring education about the harms
(33:45):
of the system and how so many people get caught up in the system over nonsense
and how there's just so much injustice and there's no such thing as a justice system.
Because when you You are incarcerating people and wrongfully convicting them
for something they did not do.
It is a tragedy. It really is.
(34:08):
And to hear his story and to know that he did all he could to try to free himself
and wasn't able to do that, even having good attorneys and doing stories on reasonable doubt.
They just took his story and used it for their gain. They weren't really trying
to help him. So you just have to be careful.
We have to continue to educate ourselves and
(34:32):
stay informed and this is why We must stay on top of the justice system and
know that we will not continue to allow them to falsely incarcerate our people
For something they did not do make sure if you're incarcerating people that
you have the right person for the crime I mean you heard him.
He said that they found the guy that committed the crime he's
(34:53):
still serving time and looks like he's going to serve his whole sentence and
you can't get that back when you have 20 some years of your life taken away
from you you can't get that back you know what I mean and so please black light
I urge y'all to stay vigilant stay on top of things,
one last reminder before I go we have a YouTube channel please go over there
(35:16):
like subscribe and share.
We have a lot of in-person interviews on there.
I know a lot of you are listening on some type of podcast platform,
but we do have in-person interviews.
So please go over there and like and subscribe and share. We're trying to get our followers there.
Until the next time, peace and love.
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