February 22, 2023 • 38 mins
In this episode of the Breaking Changes podcast, Kin Lane is joined by Rickey McCoy, Senior Development Manager at Riot Games, to discuss how the video game developer is using their API to develop new characters and their award-winning television show on Netflix, embracing API-first when it comes to developing a deep understanding of their consumers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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foreign
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[Music]
thank you for tuning in to today's full
episode of the breaking changes podcast
I'm your host and chief evangelist for
Postman Kin Lane with breaking changes
we explore topics from the world of apis
but through the lens of business and
Engineering leadership joining me today
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we have Rickey McCoy senior development
manager at Riot games Ricky blew my mind
with their usage of data from their API
to develop the characters for their
award-winning Netflix series taking API
first to a whole new level
hey everybody I'm Rickey McCoy I'm the
delivery manager for riot games uh
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pretty much I'm one of the Liaisons for
product management project management
when it comes to gaming support and just
a pleasure to be speaking with you all
but I know we'll get into a little bit
more about of my context and my
background but yeah I've been all over
multiple verticals all the way from city
government uh doing development all the
way up to uh Riot games and development
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management and product management so
yeah definitely a pleasure to be here
thank you yeah so I want to explore that
journey I want to I want to I want to
learn we'll get to write games it's
definitely I think is very interesting
to talk to you because of your current
role but then and we did a brainstorming
session and kind of walked through uh
where you've been and how you got into
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the game I found just as just as
interesting so
what got you into tech let's start there
yeah so I've been in ticks since I guess
you can say early 2000s uh more so 1999
so
um when I was in high school I was part
of a one of those Business Clubs so I
guess you can call it and they had a
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contest where you can you know basically
go out and build a prototype of a
business plan well at that time they had
an option where you could build a sample
website right so I was like Hey that
seems easy enough I can drag and drop
and that's how I got into Tech that was
in high school uh but when I left High
School I spent a few years in college I
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did some freelancing uh for a few years
uh from I would say about anywhere
between 2001 up until uh 2005. uh
freelance for a few organizations
churches uh non-profits you name it
barber shops if you if it was a business
I would build a website for it right uh
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but I got my first big break uh in 2006
for a city is called city of Frisco it's
uh about 30 minutes north of downtown
Dallas it's a suburb uh it's more
familiar now with the Dallas Cowboys the
headquartered there PGA golf has moved
their headquarters with that was a city
that is it is now but when I was there
in 2006 as a web developer it was a very
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very small small City uh gave me a lot
of opportunity to you know build my
craft things of that nature I was a net
developer back then uh but yeah that's
kind of how I got started in Tech until
I moved over to Yum brands in 2013.
what is what'd you do at Young brands
yeah so so Yum Brands uh for those
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that may know us by our product names uh
Pizza Hut Taco Bell and KFC that is the
Yum brands umbrella uh when I moved over
to Yum Brands I actually moved over as
a net SharePoint developer uh but there
were some people uh at Yum Brands they
were like hey you know we
we know you're a tech guy but but you
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have some qualities to lead teams
organizations you're kind of outgoing
you're not a typical developer uh what
they were leading towards is that you
know I I might be a good fit for uh
product management at the time right at
that time I really didn't know what it
was you know I when I was doing
development it was more like team leads
you know uh development leads people
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like that but
um I was on the international side uh of
of the house I was doing yum
International for net development but
then I got a break uh across the hallway
we had two halls in yum so there's one
there is international and then the
other side is Pizza Hut U.S domestic
there was a team that uh from the
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pizzahut.com team they said hey Rick you
know we we're interested if you would be
um uh willing to work with us directly
on pizzahut.com as a product manager or
product owner at the time and I was like
well I'm not really familiar what that
is but I'm willing to learn so that's
honestly how I got started in uh product
management uh turns out most of the
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things I was doing as like a developer
or team lead is pretty much what I was
doing with you know at
um as a product owner I just had to you
know hone the craft a little bit but
ultimately
um when they when they they felt I was a
little bit better at what I was doing in
product management they allowed me to
um be the product owner for the Hub
rewards so for those that are familiar
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with the Loyalty program at Pizza Hut
that was one of my products still use it
to this day I'm still a hub rewards
lover man I mean I love Pizza Hut right
um so I use that
um
to learn so much about pizza about
product management and then I moved over
into Fannie Mae a few years later so if
you all notice you know
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um I've I've crossed verticals and
industries quite a bit you know
um but when I was at Fannie Mae I was an
API Gateway uh product owner when I when
I went there it was really all to
increase my API Gateway knowledge I
wanted something that would really
stretch me a little bit more but but I
wanted to do that with product
management in my in my previous
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experience it was all Tech oriented
right
um but I really loved the Fannie made
because that was the first one of the
first opportunities that I had where I
was able to stretch my technical
Ackerman but then also bring forth my
um uh product management side of the
house you know um but then you know
after that can
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PlayStation Came Calling and uh yeah
when when when PlayStation calls you
know you leave so that's uh
kind of how that story happened right it
was uh it was it was a goal of mine
always to uh be able to work at
PlayStation I've been playing that
playing place like since 94 and um
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everybody say hello to my son but of
course you know this is how it is and
the day that we live in
um but yeah I was a global product owner
for PlayStation
um for the PS5 release so
pretty much in a nutshell I was
responsible for what we call
globalization which was kind of getting
to all of the different regions on uh
similar systems uh and that was a blast
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man uh I I would never forget the first
day which is a November 12th when the
PlayStation shipped and it was already
on my door and uh I was like man I I I'm
glad but I feel kind of like uh bad for
those who are really going to have to
push hard to get that system you know so
uh that's kind of how all that happened
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um I did PlayStation for a few years and
then
when I was at PlayStation I I felt like
I was uh enjoying the console level but
I really wanted to get my hands on the
next the next element of how are games
made right because sometimes people get
a misunderstanding thinking PlayStation
is where the games are made it's like no
no that's the hardware and some of the
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publishing right so we just uh give the
players an opportunity in a system to
play the games right but the the cans on
keyboard you know concept art uh game
design game development all that happens
on the game Studio level and that's when
I saw an opportunity with Riot with
League of Legends
um uh now of course Valerian team fight
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tactics Legends of Ruterra all of that
uh and then of course you all know now
Arcane the Netflix series uh I had an
opportunity there in LA and I I
basically uh jumped in and went full
Full Throttle there
man yeah that's what I was saying like
Riot games what you're doing it right
games we'll we'll go a little deeper
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into that but your journey is is
impressive and and just the skills you
must have accumulated along the way and
before we dive into kind of Riot games
in the Deep the API details behind the
scenes there
um I want to want your understanding
what is what is a product owner like
what does it mean to be a product
manager in in technology like this
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whether it be at the Gateway level or or
what you're doing as part of the gaming
industry
yeah so that's a great question
um you know to be a product owner
product manager sometimes producer in
the gaming industry they're all kind of
very similar uh disciplines so really
what you're doing is be becoming the
Ambassador slash liaison between
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business and Tech right so it's pretty
much your job to uh set priority set
roadmap uh set Direction along with your
stakeholders right so uh product owners
you really don't
um you're I'm not gonna say you're a
silent leader because sometimes you
don't have direct reports right so you
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may have a development team that you're
working with but none of those people
directly report to you but they follow
you because you're a leader on the team
right so product owner if you split
those two together it kind of gives you
the context so you're the owner or the
leader of the product so so you set the
vision of what the product is going to
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be uh and then you also kind of give
direction from fee feedback from your
customers so whenever you're looking at
any product on the market there's always
these iterations or patch notes or
release updates right so like iOS or
Android there's always updates where
somewhere in the world there's a product
owner who's listening to the feedback on
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Reddit Twitter you know Facebook
wherever and what they're doing is
they're taking that feedback through
surveys or whatever the source may be
and then they're enhancing the product
right
um which is great because that's where
apis kind of come in right I love the
name breaking changes
um one of the things we don't want to do
as a product owner is make sure we get a
breaking change right because as a
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product owner we're
um we're setting Vision we're we're
always enhancing but if something uh is
a breaking change in our world we want
to make sure that the the change that
would happen for that API is backwards
compatible right so a lot of our job is
saying okay from a tech side what are
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the requirements that are needed what
are the features that are available to
the customer today and then what are the
enhancements that will be needing new
API versions or whatever the case may be
so that it can consistently uh work for
for the uh the customer or player
consumer uh but but yeah I mean whether
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that's across gaming uh mortgage and
Fannie Mae MBS like Fannie Mae whether
it's retail and restaurant uh such as
young brands or government the
requirement of what you do from
Gathering requirements creating what we
call user stories which are basically uh
explaining to the developer what the
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customer will receive on when they see
the product right that's a user story
right uh we're responsible for that but
then we're also responsible for
stakeholder management right so everyone
wants to have a go-to person for
communicating status right that's
usually a role of the product owner a
product manager and what that does is uh
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kind of goes back to to the liaison role
you're always being the bridge of
communication and Status whether that's
with your developer your development
team or that's what your your
stakeholders and then also with your
customers right so you have to be able
to speak the language of all three of
those uh audiences
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that's like that is the most succinct uh
glorified like it really describes what
it is but in such a positive way and I
would say a lot of the companies I've
been talking to both on the show and as
part of Postman customers they're trying
to figure out how to train up the next
generation of product managers technical
product managers but with this API kind
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of focus and um and awareness and so you
you just became the commercial for that
next generation of them is basically
what that that's good that clip is going
to come from that wow awesome that was
good thank you for that I appreciate
that awesome um
so let's dive into to to write games get
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down to the the API resource capability
experience layer what what's what kind
of stuff what kind of resources are
available by apis that you see yeah I
mean uh in the gaming industry and and
in particular even at Riot I mean apis
are the heart of our data I mean really
the heart of everything man I mean uh if
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we look at it from multiple lenses right
you have the actual games themselves The
League of Legends the valerians you know
um there's tons of data whether it's
matchmaking information uh to actually
align you with uh team members to play
like valorin or League of Legends but
then also your opponent team right all
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that data is driven by apis that are
looking at
um you know validating the best match
for
um The Experience right that's just on
the actual side of the the game itself
but then you also have to think about uh
all the data that's being passed while
you're playing the game right for every
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um
every time you know you're playing Valor
and and and and you get uh what we call
a frag or a keel right that data is
being recorded uh or it's basically uh
uh uh a status 200 that's going back to
say yes we actually captured that that
frag right
um so you can only imagine millions of
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players millions of action all day every
day 24 hours data is being passed from
from here to there real time right and
then from my side of the house I work a
lot with the support So operations and
support Knowledge Management uh and then
also uh even on some of the uh
entertainment side of things so if you
look at uh from the from the lens of an
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agent that trying to support a player
that may have run into an issue right
well the agents are able to use that
same data through some tools that we
have that can that can literally support
the player to to to to rectify their
situation to make them whole right so
you can evaluate apis go the entire
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gamut right from playing the game to
getting support to even you know us you
know putting out certain information in
social media right like hey we we see
that this uh one champion on League of
Legends is getting a lot of respect you
know like the players love this guy you
know or this lady so that might be a
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good idea to Market them you know
um all of that data is is API driven and
um it's just one of those things where
API is just the the heartbeat you know
like the way I do I like the way I like
to explain apis personally to
um some of my stakeholders or my
business my my business uh teams is that
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apis are like the or like it's like the
Hub and spoke model right apis is the
Hub and then everything that it
interacts with is a Spoke so if you
think about the wheel the wheel scenario
everyone has a tire and in the corner
and in the center is the Hub and then
you have spokes right
API is the core of it right like the
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apis they they're they're either given
data or receiving data right and and
it's always a active living breathing uh
interaction between systems right but
all the systems that are speaking to and
from those apis that's how they that's
how they breathe right
um so
you know that's why I'm so excited to be
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on the show because literally for the
next generation of you know product
owners developers API Gateway
enthusiasts you name it right apis is is
is the um
it's literally the heartbeat of of of
tech today right whether we're going to
be thinking about you know if in the
future we want to do something with iot
you know Internet of Things where we
wanted to integrate
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um some type of video game that now
integrates with your house I don't know
just think just this is my own opinion
right
um
just something random like that well we
could do that through apis you know
um so the eight the apis and the respect
for apis uh is so valuable because
because like I like I said it's the
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heartbeat but you know if something goes
south with the API it can impact a lot
of players consumers and customers you
know
um hence breaking change right uh like
hey if if you if you've been in if
you've been in Tech
for more than three months or I would
say six months you you may have
experienced the breaking change you know
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uh breaking changes don't happen
intentionally they're always
unintentional
you know everyone's like hey we we built
the game and uh we thought everything
was solid but then oh that one small
feature that was making a request
that's something that we may not have
covered in the requirements right and
see that's how myself as a product owner
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delivery manager that's one of the roles
that I have to be responsible for right
to say Hey you know we we're going to
iterate on the product but let's try to
make sure that
the foundational things so that there's
no breaking changes all the backwards
compatibility right because that's the
worst thing you can happen right you you
the customers are excited about a
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feature and then you try to enhance it
and then you cause a break and change
and now the the features they love
doesn't work
yeah it's it's just it's it's one of
those moments right um but but but yeah
but I mean but but you know the one
thing about a breaking change honestly
is that it teaches you right it's one of
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those things where it's like hey it's
going to happen in your career but but
you only get stronger for it so yeah
yeah yeah so the wheel The Hub and and
spoke and wheel model like I think
that's powerful in a digital sense and
you have this Forward Motion you have
this wheel but it's almost like with
each version you've got new rims and new
wheels and low profile you know and and
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it's like digitally you're like but
you're rolling down the road at the same
time on these wheels so you can't have a
breaking change that's going to cause
you have to pull over and stop you need
to be going and then flashing and
changing your wheels and and perpetually
having forward motion and this apis are
how we we innovate and create the future
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in this world and that that rich data
that you talked about that's available
in real time
you mentioned it earlier the the TV show
uh that uh that you guys have done with
Netflix can you dive in a little bit
more there and talk about like what is
the show how did it come to be but then
you talk about how you use this data to
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to power that and and create that show
yeah yeah so Arcane is the name of the
show
um you know and and we're so excited uh
it's a it's an animated series on
Netflix and we just won a few Emmys for
uh Animated Series so we're all like so
stoked for that and a few uh Annie
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Awards so so we're just real really
stoked but uh Arcane is it basically
tells the origin story of a few of the
characters
um or what we call Champions and the
League of Legends uh lore right uh two
two two two champions in particular via
in jinx it kind of shows you the
upbringing uh and uh from their
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childhood into their adult adulthood and
a lot of the challenges that they had to
endure uh from from childhood up into
adulthood and then of course we did we
also introduce a few new characters or
Champions uh along the path and and what
we're doing is literally now elevating
uh our players because because when
Arcane was built you know
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um there was already you know
10 to 10 plus years of League of Legends
hardcore fans out there right so so when
Arcane was built we we built it with the
premise of
we we just do not want to let our our
players down right so you can imagine
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um the iterations that went with that
and we're talking about years
um with building this this TV uh TV
animated series but when we look we
value that uh evaluate you know some of
the Champions yes of course there was a
lot of data that went behind who who
should we uh kick off of this animated
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series with right uh you know today
League of Legends we have well more than
140 plus champions in our game right so
tons of different archetypes of of
Champions uh but but when we evaluated
some of the the locations in in the
series uh whenever you get a chance to
watch Arcane you will see two Series in
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particular uh one is called zon zon
z-a-u-n which is where Jinx and Vai are
from two of the main characters and then
there's also Pilots over pilt over is
the uh Nation that's that's kind of
technically above like even in uh the
visual sense it sits on top of zon zon
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is kind of like the underground grimy
um you know
Hustle by any means necessary you know
um just the grimy side of of of of of of
of of of this these two Nations right
piltover is all about Progressive
progression very wealthy oriented Nation
um and and not to throw out any spoilers
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when you all see it but but you would
definitely be able to to to see
um how uh both of these worlds interact
but then obviously you know when you
when you watch arcane you know one of
the things when we built Arcane it was
to
introduce uh League of Legends or riot
games to an entire different uh
(22:39):
generational audience of people right
everyone aren't uh uh everyone doesn't
play you know League of Legends which is
a multiplayer uh online battle arena
game right
um everyone just just may not be
interested in it or they they're just
unfamiliar with the game right so when
we came out with uh League of with
Arcane it was to introduce from an
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animated you know beautiful art art type
style show that could build
understanding about oh these are who
these characters are this is the the
actual uh background of the locations
and of course what that would do is
Showcase
um to new followers of the show to build
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interest in some of the other IP that we
have within the video games right so so
we so now you know we're seeing a lot of
people that are building an affinity to
jinx by you know Jace
um you know a few new people like silco
all these different characters uh and so
now we're taking entertainment and
introducing them to our video games and
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people that were already familiar with
the video games were just broadening
their knowledge with the lore and the
storytelling and Arcane and all of that
date all of that was uh generated by
what we've seen what we've seen over the
years on which characters which
locations we should be building which is
obviously API data right
um to be able to generate a show off of
it yeah wow
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impressive man that is like I mean
that's that's this forward motion of
apis this productization of API so that
you have a feedback loop you have you
you can move forward based upon these
feedback loops and invent the future but
this is doing that literally but in a
virtual sense in a game world like
figuring out who these characters should
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represent reaching out into new
audiences new generations and so not at
that scale but I'm doing that with this
show you're part of this for me with
breaking changes is we're trying to
break because we've done formula one
we've done NBA we've done Boy Scouts of
America their API first like we've gone
through Industries and got API first
(24:49):
conversations I'm using you from the
gaming industry to reach across up the
aisle into other Industries and
introduce people to API first and and
but through stories that they're they're
gonna care about and so yeah it's uh I
think let's just demonstrates the power
of apis right there
yeah yeah and and that and that's
awesome you know because now that we you
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know at Riot you know uh stepping into
the entertainment uh sector of it
because that's one thing we say you know
for years we one of our uh missions
where you know we want to be the
um
you know uh one of the best uh gaming
companies in the 21st century right now
is what we want to be the end the
entertainment company of the 21st
century because you know now we're just
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uh mixing in the gaming and
entertainment but the beautiful thing
about it is is that you know we can grow
each like it's it's like a handshake
right where we're learning from
entertainment
and now we're learning from gaming so
one one beautiful thing about when
Arcane was released back in uh November
(25:54):
of 2020 21 is that we had a lot of
integration pieces between uh online
experiences and games you can do online
uh we had a lot of integration with uh
streaming platforms like Twitch uh and
that was honestly the first time that uh
Netflix and Twitch so long story short
but Netflix allowed Twitch to stream
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Arcane's first three episodes on
twitch's uh platform that that has never
happened right
um because normally you know Netflix
will say hey come watch it on Netflix
that's it you know but but but the
Partnerships that we have with Netflix
and twitch it was two giants in the
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streaming and just streaming industry
period coming together to expose a new
animated series
um and then with that came a lot of API
integration right the APIs with Netflix
to Twitch to Twitch to Netflix
um giving out what we call uh like
process or gifs like loot boxes through
twitch that's all integration right so
(26:59):
whoever was able to watch the show and
um twitch would obviously be able to
capture your viewership then they would
say oh okay it's called a loot box or a
loot giveaway right so whoever watched
and then you logged in to say League of
Legends later that evening you would
have free content that's all API driven
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right and that that's why I I I I I love
the API first uh model because it it
just Bridges the gap for everyone like
multiple systems talking and um
expanding more than what you can do by
yourself
with APIs and
and it feels like so what I've kind of
mapped out across the companies I've
(27:42):
talked to because we've had eBay we've
had Amazon quite a few older but newer
tech companies and and really like APIs
the first wave was about defining
your digital resources so all your all
your restful web APIs that you need to
do things and then the second wave was
really about strengthening your
(28:02):
capabilities like as a platform what are
we capable of doing with these resources
but then what we see now across you know
the NBA talked about this is we got to
create experiences like with this so
we've got to be able to like rapidly do
this respond to these Partnerships and
they've got like 50 you know uh teams or
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where they have 39 teams 38 teams and
then they uh they have to deal with all
the mobile apps all the Partnerships
across that so like these experiences
these future experiences that that we're
going to need to create are all API
driven and this world building literally
that y'all are doing is is all API
driven yes that is exactly correct yeah
(28:47):
yeah so I mean what's net what what's
your future hold just more World
building I mean like what what excites
you and keeps you coming to work every
day you know the thing that excites me
that's kind of that's why I actually
really enjoy working with operations
um because with operations I can touch
so many different parts of of the gaming
ecosystem right whether that's the game
(29:09):
development uh the agent uh support side
and everything in between right
um like even on the Arcane you know is
it's like in operations you get to see
it you get to see a lot you know
um which broadens your um your product
management scope
from a lot of different lenses and you
(29:31):
can leverage that knowledge to to
multiple initiatives and that's what
keeps me going every day you know like
the gaming industry is so diverse and so
uh so large and wide right I mean
sometimes when you think about the
gaming industry you immediately think
about uh the end result right you know
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you have the you have the controller or
the keyboard and mouse in your hand and
you're executing basically trying to
solve the puzzle of of what the game is
putting in front of you right
um but there are so many things right
like you have to finance the accounting
um the concept of art you have the
purchasing publishing I mean it goes on
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and on Enterprise Ops Right devops Live
Ops Esports I mean a little music
production video production it it it
just goes across the gamut and being in
product management and then having that
that that foundation and apis I
literally can
can can can can can go from this role to
(30:35):
that role within the same organization
or in the gaming industry or whatever
you want to call it and and just
continually grow my skills right
um it's it's basically like every day in
the gaming industry it's a new adventure
right it's like you that's one thing I I
will say you know some sometimes you can
get a position at a certain organization
and uh you wake up it's like a
(30:57):
monotonous checklist you know it's it's
never like that in gaming ever you know
it's like you you you you you you
basically complete one Mission like a
game and then you go to the next you
know it's like it's it's a ever ever uh
continuous cycle you know so um yeah
that's that's what really keeps me going
(31:18):
and then just
interesting to to be part of an industry
where I really feel that you know um
you know video games
like especially during the pandemic time
frame it it was a huge escapism you know
uh method for a lot of people you know
there's a lot of people out here
um on on some like hard times and some
(31:41):
people didn't know where their income
was going to come from some people you
know it's a lot of things happening but
it just felt really good to be part of
an industry where we were able to allow
people to take their minds off of
reality for an hour or two you know
um and just
focus on something different you know uh
(32:02):
and that that's really what you know why
I really enjoy video the in the gaming
industry in general because it it allows
you to be anything you want to be you
know you can Venture into any world you
want to venture into uh and you can just
dream you know and then being able to be
part of the background behind that stuff
is is really cool man yeah yeah so your
(32:25):
16 year old self and your 16 year old
mind have you made it are you like where
you you thought you you'd be
you know
I I never expected to be here I mean
like I I'm honestly just so grateful you
know like um
(32:47):
when I originally got the call from
PlayStation
I mean even to this day it it it seems
like like like a dream you know like
like I'm about to pinch myself and wake
up you know
um but even from just being able to work
with those organizations Pizza Hut
Fannie Mae Riot I would have never uh
(33:09):
imagined that I I would be at at this
level when I was 16 you know but the
thing now man is like the sky is the
limit you know it's like now that I've
been able to get to this level I I can't
stop you know it's like it's always like
I I have to take this from uh Puff Daddy
man you know can't stop One Stop you
(33:30):
know like it's always
forward thinking like okay this happened
now what's the next barrier we can break
as as a team as a people you know as a
world what's the next thing we can break
you know and then accomplish that and go
to the next so
yeah love it I love your passion love
(33:50):
your drive how like how would you
recommend folks uh get you know become
product managers with you know and and
achieve some of the success that you you
found what what recommendations do you
have for him yeah um first off uh I will
say this there is a great book it's
called The Lean Startup
um they came out in 20 2010 2012-ish uh
(34:14):
great reads they kind of give yeah yes
yes it gives you a great foundation on
um how to iterate without basically how
to
constantly improve on a product without
it being perfect but being lovable
enough for the customers to say hey this
this this product has some feet and it's
not running yet it's crawling but it has
(34:35):
Vision right
um because that's the one thing I would
always recommend anyone looking to get
in product management you know you have
to be comfortable and
um
building in blocks small chunks of work
right there's no product out there
whereas Elite Elon Musk invention you
know even the Tesla they they started
(34:57):
out with the basic concept of this is
how a car works today on on a uh on gas
right
but then how can we iterate and modify
that to be fully electric over time
right
um if you're someone who loves to do
that if you someone who loves to uh have
conversations and basically intrigued
about how things work
(35:18):
product management may be for you you
know
um you do not have to be uh completely
uh Tech oriented or Tech minded but I do
highly recommend that you take a few
Tech courses
um
I I'm an avid uh follower I've been well
I've been I've been following this
(35:39):
website since I was in man
17 18 years old but W3 schools it's a
free resource
man I I had an opportunity to to talk to
the CEO uh about a year ago they're
based out of Sweden but man but I tell
you passion heart you know and then I
began to realize why the website teaches
(36:01):
you so much because you can hear it from
the from the founders heart you know
it's a free resource it's everything's
out there if you want to learn
everything from HTML to C plus plus it's
it's a free resource you know it's out
there
um and then you know of course you have
your uh Udemy's skillshare there's a lot
(36:22):
of people teaching uh product management
uh in general
um product school is another one there's
there's a lot of resources but
um everything's free you know uh there
are a few boot camps out there but I I
honestly I would say you know dive into
um maybe a few courses on
um on Udemy udemy.com is a great
(36:44):
resource uh just kind of get a few
different viewpoints on what product
management is see if you kind of like
the context
and then hey worst case scenario you can
always reach out to me I I love to
provide uh share what I know that's my
way of giving back giving back so yeah
you heard you heard that folks you need
a mentor uh you want to figure out this
(37:06):
space it's uh we're gonna need all I
know is we're going to need thousands of
of you do World building what we're
going to need for the future like out
ahead of what's happening right now so
uh definitely uh really enjoyed your
your story today and like hearing your
journey I mean Super impressive I mean
what you're doing right now is is is
(37:27):
impressive but really I think your
appetite over your career for Change and
embracing like larger scope different
scope problems is it's impressive
awesome thank you so much Ken now this
is just it's an honor to be on Postman I
mean to be with the talking with Postman
here I mean that's
I think everyone who's listening to the
(37:47):
podcast you all know it's like Postman
we've used the tool that this tool has
saved our lives especially when you're
talking about the uh uh even basic offs
right authentication methods right you
know you don't want to have to
do everything manually every time post
man the tools is just amazing and uh
it's definitely one of the heartbeats of
of the API uh ecosystem for sure
(38:09):
I appreciate that I really really
enjoyed today Rickey this has been great
thanks for joining us awesome thank you
all you all have a great day
thanks again to Rickey for stopping by
you can find more about Ricky on
LinkedIn and write games at
rightgames.com you can subscribe to the
breaking changes podcast at postman.com
(38:31):
events slash breaking Dash changes I'm
your host Kin Lane and until next time
cheers
foreign
foreign
(00:02):
[Music]
thank you for tuning in to today's full
episode of the breaking changes podcast
I'm your host and chief evangelist for
Postman Kin Lane with breaking changes
we explore topics from the world of apis
but through the lens of business and
Engineering leadership joining me today
(00:23):
we have Rickey McCoy senior development
manager at Riot games Ricky blew my mind
with their usage of data from their API
to develop the characters for their
award-winning Netflix series taking API
first to a whole new level
hey everybody I'm Rickey McCoy I'm the
delivery manager for riot games uh
(00:44):
pretty much I'm one of the Liaisons for
product management project management
when it comes to gaming support and just
a pleasure to be speaking with you all
but I know we'll get into a little bit
more about of my context and my
background but yeah I've been all over
multiple verticals all the way from city
government uh doing development all the
way up to uh Riot games and development
(01:06):
management and product management so
yeah definitely a pleasure to be here
thank you yeah so I want to explore that
journey I want to I want to I want to
learn we'll get to write games it's
definitely I think is very interesting
to talk to you because of your current
role but then and we did a brainstorming
session and kind of walked through uh
where you've been and how you got into
(01:27):
the game I found just as just as
interesting so
what got you into tech let's start there
yeah so I've been in ticks since I guess
you can say early 2000s uh more so 1999
so
um when I was in high school I was part
of a one of those Business Clubs so I
guess you can call it and they had a
(01:48):
contest where you can you know basically
go out and build a prototype of a
business plan well at that time they had
an option where you could build a sample
website right so I was like Hey that
seems easy enough I can drag and drop
and that's how I got into Tech that was
in high school uh but when I left High
School I spent a few years in college I
(02:08):
did some freelancing uh for a few years
uh from I would say about anywhere
between 2001 up until uh 2005. uh
freelance for a few organizations
churches uh non-profits you name it
barber shops if you if it was a business
I would build a website for it right uh
(02:29):
but I got my first big break uh in 2006
for a city is called city of Frisco it's
uh about 30 minutes north of downtown
Dallas it's a suburb uh it's more
familiar now with the Dallas Cowboys the
headquartered there PGA golf has moved
their headquarters with that was a city
that is it is now but when I was there
in 2006 as a web developer it was a very
(02:51):
very small small City uh gave me a lot
of opportunity to you know build my
craft things of that nature I was a net
developer back then uh but yeah that's
kind of how I got started in Tech until
I moved over to Yum brands in 2013.
what is what'd you do at Young brands
yeah so so Yum Brands uh for those
(03:13):
that may know us by our product names uh
Pizza Hut Taco Bell and KFC that is the
Yum brands umbrella uh when I moved over
to Yum Brands I actually moved over as
a net SharePoint developer uh but there
were some people uh at Yum Brands they
were like hey you know we
we know you're a tech guy but but you
(03:34):
have some qualities to lead teams
organizations you're kind of outgoing
you're not a typical developer uh what
they were leading towards is that you
know I I might be a good fit for uh
product management at the time right at
that time I really didn't know what it
was you know I when I was doing
development it was more like team leads
you know uh development leads people
(03:55):
like that but
um I was on the international side uh of
of the house I was doing yum
International for net development but
then I got a break uh across the hallway
we had two halls in yum so there's one
there is international and then the
other side is Pizza Hut U.S domestic
there was a team that uh from the
(04:15):
pizzahut.com team they said hey Rick you
know we we're interested if you would be
um uh willing to work with us directly
on pizzahut.com as a product manager or
product owner at the time and I was like
well I'm not really familiar what that
is but I'm willing to learn so that's
honestly how I got started in uh product
management uh turns out most of the
(04:38):
things I was doing as like a developer
or team lead is pretty much what I was
doing with you know at
um as a product owner I just had to you
know hone the craft a little bit but
ultimately
um when they when they they felt I was a
little bit better at what I was doing in
product management they allowed me to
um be the product owner for the Hub
rewards so for those that are familiar
(05:00):
with the Loyalty program at Pizza Hut
that was one of my products still use it
to this day I'm still a hub rewards
lover man I mean I love Pizza Hut right
um so I use that
um
to learn so much about pizza about
product management and then I moved over
into Fannie Mae a few years later so if
you all notice you know
(05:20):
um I've I've crossed verticals and
industries quite a bit you know
um but when I was at Fannie Mae I was an
API Gateway uh product owner when I when
I went there it was really all to
increase my API Gateway knowledge I
wanted something that would really
stretch me a little bit more but but I
wanted to do that with product
management in my in my previous
(05:41):
experience it was all Tech oriented
right
um but I really loved the Fannie made
because that was the first one of the
first opportunities that I had where I
was able to stretch my technical
Ackerman but then also bring forth my
um uh product management side of the
house you know um but then you know
after that can
(06:01):
PlayStation Came Calling and uh yeah
when when when PlayStation calls you
know you leave so that's uh
kind of how that story happened right it
was uh it was it was a goal of mine
always to uh be able to work at
PlayStation I've been playing that
playing place like since 94 and um
(06:22):
everybody say hello to my son but of
course you know this is how it is and
the day that we live in
um but yeah I was a global product owner
for PlayStation
um for the PS5 release so
pretty much in a nutshell I was
responsible for what we call
globalization which was kind of getting
to all of the different regions on uh
similar systems uh and that was a blast
(06:44):
man uh I I would never forget the first
day which is a November 12th when the
PlayStation shipped and it was already
on my door and uh I was like man I I I'm
glad but I feel kind of like uh bad for
those who are really going to have to
push hard to get that system you know so
uh that's kind of how all that happened
(07:05):
um I did PlayStation for a few years and
then
when I was at PlayStation I I felt like
I was uh enjoying the console level but
I really wanted to get my hands on the
next the next element of how are games
made right because sometimes people get
a misunderstanding thinking PlayStation
is where the games are made it's like no
no that's the hardware and some of the
(07:27):
publishing right so we just uh give the
players an opportunity in a system to
play the games right but the the cans on
keyboard you know concept art uh game
design game development all that happens
on the game Studio level and that's when
I saw an opportunity with Riot with
League of Legends
um uh now of course Valerian team fight
(07:49):
tactics Legends of Ruterra all of that
uh and then of course you all know now
Arcane the Netflix series uh I had an
opportunity there in LA and I I
basically uh jumped in and went full
Full Throttle there
man yeah that's what I was saying like
Riot games what you're doing it right
games we'll we'll go a little deeper
(08:10):
into that but your journey is is
impressive and and just the skills you
must have accumulated along the way and
before we dive into kind of Riot games
in the Deep the API details behind the
scenes there
um I want to want your understanding
what is what is a product owner like
what does it mean to be a product
manager in in technology like this
(08:30):
whether it be at the Gateway level or or
what you're doing as part of the gaming
industry
yeah so that's a great question
um you know to be a product owner
product manager sometimes producer in
the gaming industry they're all kind of
very similar uh disciplines so really
what you're doing is be becoming the
Ambassador slash liaison between
(08:52):
business and Tech right so it's pretty
much your job to uh set priority set
roadmap uh set Direction along with your
stakeholders right so uh product owners
you really don't
um you're I'm not gonna say you're a
silent leader because sometimes you
don't have direct reports right so you
(09:13):
may have a development team that you're
working with but none of those people
directly report to you but they follow
you because you're a leader on the team
right so product owner if you split
those two together it kind of gives you
the context so you're the owner or the
leader of the product so so you set the
vision of what the product is going to
(09:33):
be uh and then you also kind of give
direction from fee feedback from your
customers so whenever you're looking at
any product on the market there's always
these iterations or patch notes or
release updates right so like iOS or
Android there's always updates where
somewhere in the world there's a product
owner who's listening to the feedback on
(09:54):
Reddit Twitter you know Facebook
wherever and what they're doing is
they're taking that feedback through
surveys or whatever the source may be
and then they're enhancing the product
right
um which is great because that's where
apis kind of come in right I love the
name breaking changes
um one of the things we don't want to do
as a product owner is make sure we get a
breaking change right because as a
(10:16):
product owner we're
um we're setting Vision we're we're
always enhancing but if something uh is
a breaking change in our world we want
to make sure that the the change that
would happen for that API is backwards
compatible right so a lot of our job is
saying okay from a tech side what are
(10:36):
the requirements that are needed what
are the features that are available to
the customer today and then what are the
enhancements that will be needing new
API versions or whatever the case may be
so that it can consistently uh work for
for the uh the customer or player
consumer uh but but yeah I mean whether
(10:56):
that's across gaming uh mortgage and
Fannie Mae MBS like Fannie Mae whether
it's retail and restaurant uh such as
young brands or government the
requirement of what you do from
Gathering requirements creating what we
call user stories which are basically uh
explaining to the developer what the
(11:17):
customer will receive on when they see
the product right that's a user story
right uh we're responsible for that but
then we're also responsible for
stakeholder management right so everyone
wants to have a go-to person for
communicating status right that's
usually a role of the product owner a
product manager and what that does is uh
(11:40):
kind of goes back to to the liaison role
you're always being the bridge of
communication and Status whether that's
with your developer your development
team or that's what your your
stakeholders and then also with your
customers right so you have to be able
to speak the language of all three of
those uh audiences
(12:05):
that's like that is the most succinct uh
glorified like it really describes what
it is but in such a positive way and I
would say a lot of the companies I've
been talking to both on the show and as
part of Postman customers they're trying
to figure out how to train up the next
generation of product managers technical
product managers but with this API kind
(12:28):
of focus and um and awareness and so you
you just became the commercial for that
next generation of them is basically
what that that's good that clip is going
to come from that wow awesome that was
good thank you for that I appreciate
that awesome um
so let's dive into to to write games get
(12:49):
down to the the API resource capability
experience layer what what's what kind
of stuff what kind of resources are
available by apis that you see yeah I
mean uh in the gaming industry and and
in particular even at Riot I mean apis
are the heart of our data I mean really
the heart of everything man I mean uh if
(13:11):
we look at it from multiple lenses right
you have the actual games themselves The
League of Legends the valerians you know
um there's tons of data whether it's
matchmaking information uh to actually
align you with uh team members to play
like valorin or League of Legends but
then also your opponent team right all
(13:32):
that data is driven by apis that are
looking at
um you know validating the best match
for
um The Experience right that's just on
the actual side of the the game itself
but then you also have to think about uh
all the data that's being passed while
you're playing the game right for every
(13:53):
um
every time you know you're playing Valor
and and and and you get uh what we call
a frag or a keel right that data is
being recorded uh or it's basically uh
uh uh a status 200 that's going back to
say yes we actually captured that that
frag right
um so you can only imagine millions of
(14:15):
players millions of action all day every
day 24 hours data is being passed from
from here to there real time right and
then from my side of the house I work a
lot with the support So operations and
support Knowledge Management uh and then
also uh even on some of the uh
entertainment side of things so if you
look at uh from the from the lens of an
(14:37):
agent that trying to support a player
that may have run into an issue right
well the agents are able to use that
same data through some tools that we
have that can that can literally support
the player to to to to rectify their
situation to make them whole right so
you can evaluate apis go the entire
(14:57):
gamut right from playing the game to
getting support to even you know us you
know putting out certain information in
social media right like hey we we see
that this uh one champion on League of
Legends is getting a lot of respect you
know like the players love this guy you
know or this lady so that might be a
(15:18):
good idea to Market them you know
um all of that data is is API driven and
um it's just one of those things where
API is just the the heartbeat you know
like the way I do I like the way I like
to explain apis personally to
um some of my stakeholders or my
business my my business uh teams is that
(15:39):
apis are like the or like it's like the
Hub and spoke model right apis is the
Hub and then everything that it
interacts with is a Spoke so if you
think about the wheel the wheel scenario
everyone has a tire and in the corner
and in the center is the Hub and then
you have spokes right
API is the core of it right like the
(16:00):
apis they they're they're either given
data or receiving data right and and
it's always a active living breathing uh
interaction between systems right but
all the systems that are speaking to and
from those apis that's how they that's
how they breathe right
um so
you know that's why I'm so excited to be
(16:21):
on the show because literally for the
next generation of you know product
owners developers API Gateway
enthusiasts you name it right apis is is
is the um
it's literally the heartbeat of of of
tech today right whether we're going to
be thinking about you know if in the
future we want to do something with iot
you know Internet of Things where we
wanted to integrate
(16:42):
um some type of video game that now
integrates with your house I don't know
just think just this is my own opinion
right
um
just something random like that well we
could do that through apis you know
um so the eight the apis and the respect
for apis uh is so valuable because
because like I like I said it's the
(17:03):
heartbeat but you know if something goes
south with the API it can impact a lot
of players consumers and customers you
know
um hence breaking change right uh like
hey if if you if you've been in if
you've been in Tech
for more than three months or I would
say six months you you may have
experienced the breaking change you know
(17:23):
uh breaking changes don't happen
intentionally they're always
unintentional
you know everyone's like hey we we built
the game and uh we thought everything
was solid but then oh that one small
feature that was making a request
that's something that we may not have
covered in the requirements right and
see that's how myself as a product owner
(17:45):
delivery manager that's one of the roles
that I have to be responsible for right
to say Hey you know we we're going to
iterate on the product but let's try to
make sure that
the foundational things so that there's
no breaking changes all the backwards
compatibility right because that's the
worst thing you can happen right you you
the customers are excited about a
(18:08):
feature and then you try to enhance it
and then you cause a break and change
and now the the features they love
doesn't work
yeah it's it's just it's it's one of
those moments right um but but but yeah
but I mean but but you know the one
thing about a breaking change honestly
is that it teaches you right it's one of
(18:29):
those things where it's like hey it's
going to happen in your career but but
you only get stronger for it so yeah
yeah yeah so the wheel The Hub and and
spoke and wheel model like I think
that's powerful in a digital sense and
you have this Forward Motion you have
this wheel but it's almost like with
each version you've got new rims and new
wheels and low profile you know and and
(18:50):
it's like digitally you're like but
you're rolling down the road at the same
time on these wheels so you can't have a
breaking change that's going to cause
you have to pull over and stop you need
to be going and then flashing and
changing your wheels and and perpetually
having forward motion and this apis are
how we we innovate and create the future
(19:10):
in this world and that that rich data
that you talked about that's available
in real time
you mentioned it earlier the the TV show
uh that uh that you guys have done with
Netflix can you dive in a little bit
more there and talk about like what is
the show how did it come to be but then
you talk about how you use this data to
(19:31):
to power that and and create that show
yeah yeah so Arcane is the name of the
show
um you know and and we're so excited uh
it's a it's an animated series on
Netflix and we just won a few Emmys for
uh Animated Series so we're all like so
stoked for that and a few uh Annie
(19:52):
Awards so so we're just real really
stoked but uh Arcane is it basically
tells the origin story of a few of the
characters
um or what we call Champions and the
League of Legends uh lore right uh two
two two two champions in particular via
in jinx it kind of shows you the
upbringing uh and uh from their
(20:13):
childhood into their adult adulthood and
a lot of the challenges that they had to
endure uh from from childhood up into
adulthood and then of course we did we
also introduce a few new characters or
Champions uh along the path and and what
we're doing is literally now elevating
uh our players because because when
Arcane was built you know
(20:35):
um there was already you know
10 to 10 plus years of League of Legends
hardcore fans out there right so so when
Arcane was built we we built it with the
premise of
we we just do not want to let our our
players down right so you can imagine
(20:55):
um the iterations that went with that
and we're talking about years
um with building this this TV uh TV
animated series but when we look we
value that uh evaluate you know some of
the Champions yes of course there was a
lot of data that went behind who who
should we uh kick off of this animated
(21:15):
series with right uh you know today
League of Legends we have well more than
140 plus champions in our game right so
tons of different archetypes of of
Champions uh but but when we evaluated
some of the the locations in in the
series uh whenever you get a chance to
watch Arcane you will see two Series in
(21:35):
particular uh one is called zon zon
z-a-u-n which is where Jinx and Vai are
from two of the main characters and then
there's also Pilots over pilt over is
the uh Nation that's that's kind of
technically above like even in uh the
visual sense it sits on top of zon zon
(21:56):
is kind of like the underground grimy
um you know
Hustle by any means necessary you know
um just the grimy side of of of of of of
of of of this these two Nations right
piltover is all about Progressive
progression very wealthy oriented Nation
um and and not to throw out any spoilers
(22:18):
when you all see it but but you would
definitely be able to to to see
um how uh both of these worlds interact
but then obviously you know when you
when you watch arcane you know one of
the things when we built Arcane it was
to
introduce uh League of Legends or riot
games to an entire different uh
(22:39):
generational audience of people right
everyone aren't uh uh everyone doesn't
play you know League of Legends which is
a multiplayer uh online battle arena
game right
um everyone just just may not be
interested in it or they they're just
unfamiliar with the game right so when
we came out with uh League of with
Arcane it was to introduce from an
(23:02):
animated you know beautiful art art type
style show that could build
understanding about oh these are who
these characters are this is the the
actual uh background of the locations
and of course what that would do is
Showcase
um to new followers of the show to build
(23:22):
interest in some of the other IP that we
have within the video games right so so
we so now you know we're seeing a lot of
people that are building an affinity to
jinx by you know Jace
um you know a few new people like silco
all these different characters uh and so
now we're taking entertainment and
introducing them to our video games and
(23:44):
people that were already familiar with
the video games were just broadening
their knowledge with the lore and the
storytelling and Arcane and all of that
date all of that was uh generated by
what we've seen what we've seen over the
years on which characters which
locations we should be building which is
obviously API data right
um to be able to generate a show off of
it yeah wow
(24:06):
impressive man that is like I mean
that's that's this forward motion of
apis this productization of API so that
you have a feedback loop you have you
you can move forward based upon these
feedback loops and invent the future but
this is doing that literally but in a
virtual sense in a game world like
figuring out who these characters should
(24:28):
represent reaching out into new
audiences new generations and so not at
that scale but I'm doing that with this
show you're part of this for me with
breaking changes is we're trying to
break because we've done formula one
we've done NBA we've done Boy Scouts of
America their API first like we've gone
through Industries and got API first
(24:49):
conversations I'm using you from the
gaming industry to reach across up the
aisle into other Industries and
introduce people to API first and and
but through stories that they're they're
gonna care about and so yeah it's uh I
think let's just demonstrates the power
of apis right there
yeah yeah and and that and that's
awesome you know because now that we you
(25:11):
know at Riot you know uh stepping into
the entertainment uh sector of it
because that's one thing we say you know
for years we one of our uh missions
where you know we want to be the
um
you know uh one of the best uh gaming
companies in the 21st century right now
is what we want to be the end the
entertainment company of the 21st
century because you know now we're just
(25:32):
uh mixing in the gaming and
entertainment but the beautiful thing
about it is is that you know we can grow
each like it's it's like a handshake
right where we're learning from
entertainment
and now we're learning from gaming so
one one beautiful thing about when
Arcane was released back in uh November
(25:54):
of 2020 21 is that we had a lot of
integration pieces between uh online
experiences and games you can do online
uh we had a lot of integration with uh
streaming platforms like Twitch uh and
that was honestly the first time that uh
Netflix and Twitch so long story short
but Netflix allowed Twitch to stream
(26:17):
Arcane's first three episodes on
twitch's uh platform that that has never
happened right
um because normally you know Netflix
will say hey come watch it on Netflix
that's it you know but but but the
Partnerships that we have with Netflix
and twitch it was two giants in the
(26:38):
streaming and just streaming industry
period coming together to expose a new
animated series
um and then with that came a lot of API
integration right the APIs with Netflix
to Twitch to Twitch to Netflix
um giving out what we call uh like
process or gifs like loot boxes through
twitch that's all integration right so
(26:59):
whoever was able to watch the show and
um twitch would obviously be able to
capture your viewership then they would
say oh okay it's called a loot box or a
loot giveaway right so whoever watched
and then you logged in to say League of
Legends later that evening you would
have free content that's all API driven
(27:21):
right and that that's why I I I I I love
the API first uh model because it it
just Bridges the gap for everyone like
multiple systems talking and um
expanding more than what you can do by
yourself
with APIs and
and it feels like so what I've kind of
mapped out across the companies I've
(27:42):
talked to because we've had eBay we've
had Amazon quite a few older but newer
tech companies and and really like APIs
the first wave was about defining
your digital resources so all your all
your restful web APIs that you need to
do things and then the second wave was
really about strengthening your
(28:02):
capabilities like as a platform what are
we capable of doing with these resources
but then what we see now across you know
the NBA talked about this is we got to
create experiences like with this so
we've got to be able to like rapidly do
this respond to these Partnerships and
they've got like 50 you know uh teams or
(28:24):
where they have 39 teams 38 teams and
then they uh they have to deal with all
the mobile apps all the Partnerships
across that so like these experiences
these future experiences that that we're
going to need to create are all API
driven and this world building literally
that y'all are doing is is all API
driven yes that is exactly correct yeah
(28:47):
yeah so I mean what's net what what's
your future hold just more World
building I mean like what what excites
you and keeps you coming to work every
day you know the thing that excites me
that's kind of that's why I actually
really enjoy working with operations
um because with operations I can touch
so many different parts of of the gaming
ecosystem right whether that's the game
(29:09):
development uh the agent uh support side
and everything in between right
um like even on the Arcane you know is
it's like in operations you get to see
it you get to see a lot you know
um which broadens your um your product
management scope
from a lot of different lenses and you
(29:31):
can leverage that knowledge to to
multiple initiatives and that's what
keeps me going every day you know like
the gaming industry is so diverse and so
uh so large and wide right I mean
sometimes when you think about the
gaming industry you immediately think
about uh the end result right you know
(29:51):
you have the you have the controller or
the keyboard and mouse in your hand and
you're executing basically trying to
solve the puzzle of of what the game is
putting in front of you right
um but there are so many things right
like you have to finance the accounting
um the concept of art you have the
purchasing publishing I mean it goes on
(30:13):
and on Enterprise Ops Right devops Live
Ops Esports I mean a little music
production video production it it it
just goes across the gamut and being in
product management and then having that
that that foundation and apis I
literally can
can can can can can go from this role to
(30:35):
that role within the same organization
or in the gaming industry or whatever
you want to call it and and just
continually grow my skills right
um it's it's basically like every day in
the gaming industry it's a new adventure
right it's like you that's one thing I I
will say you know some sometimes you can
get a position at a certain organization
and uh you wake up it's like a
(30:57):
monotonous checklist you know it's it's
never like that in gaming ever you know
it's like you you you you you you
basically complete one Mission like a
game and then you go to the next you
know it's like it's it's a ever ever uh
continuous cycle you know so um yeah
that's that's what really keeps me going
(31:18):
and then just
interesting to to be part of an industry
where I really feel that you know um
you know video games
like especially during the pandemic time
frame it it was a huge escapism you know
uh method for a lot of people you know
there's a lot of people out here
um on on some like hard times and some
(31:41):
people didn't know where their income
was going to come from some people you
know it's a lot of things happening but
it just felt really good to be part of
an industry where we were able to allow
people to take their minds off of
reality for an hour or two you know
um and just
focus on something different you know uh
(32:02):
and that that's really what you know why
I really enjoy video the in the gaming
industry in general because it it allows
you to be anything you want to be you
know you can Venture into any world you
want to venture into uh and you can just
dream you know and then being able to be
part of the background behind that stuff
is is really cool man yeah yeah so your
(32:25):
16 year old self and your 16 year old
mind have you made it are you like where
you you thought you you'd be
you know
I I never expected to be here I mean
like I I'm honestly just so grateful you
know like um
(32:47):
when I originally got the call from
PlayStation
I mean even to this day it it it seems
like like like a dream you know like
like I'm about to pinch myself and wake
up you know
um but even from just being able to work
with those organizations Pizza Hut
Fannie Mae Riot I would have never uh
(33:09):
imagined that I I would be at at this
level when I was 16 you know but the
thing now man is like the sky is the
limit you know it's like now that I've
been able to get to this level I I can't
stop you know it's like it's always like
I I have to take this from uh Puff Daddy
man you know can't stop One Stop you
(33:30):
know like it's always
forward thinking like okay this happened
now what's the next barrier we can break
as as a team as a people you know as a
world what's the next thing we can break
you know and then accomplish that and go
to the next so
yeah love it I love your passion love
(33:50):
your drive how like how would you
recommend folks uh get you know become
product managers with you know and and
achieve some of the success that you you
found what what recommendations do you
have for him yeah um first off uh I will
say this there is a great book it's
called The Lean Startup
um they came out in 20 2010 2012-ish uh
(34:14):
great reads they kind of give yeah yes
yes it gives you a great foundation on
um how to iterate without basically how
to
constantly improve on a product without
it being perfect but being lovable
enough for the customers to say hey this
this this product has some feet and it's
not running yet it's crawling but it has
(34:35):
Vision right
um because that's the one thing I would
always recommend anyone looking to get
in product management you know you have
to be comfortable and
um
building in blocks small chunks of work
right there's no product out there
whereas Elite Elon Musk invention you
know even the Tesla they they started
(34:57):
out with the basic concept of this is
how a car works today on on a uh on gas
right
but then how can we iterate and modify
that to be fully electric over time
right
um if you're someone who loves to do
that if you someone who loves to uh have
conversations and basically intrigued
about how things work
(35:18):
product management may be for you you
know
um you do not have to be uh completely
uh Tech oriented or Tech minded but I do
highly recommend that you take a few
Tech courses
um
I I'm an avid uh follower I've been well
I've been I've been following this
(35:39):
website since I was in man
17 18 years old but W3 schools it's a
free resource
man I I had an opportunity to to talk to
the CEO uh about a year ago they're
based out of Sweden but man but I tell
you passion heart you know and then I
began to realize why the website teaches
(36:01):
you so much because you can hear it from
the from the founders heart you know
it's a free resource it's everything's
out there if you want to learn
everything from HTML to C plus plus it's
it's a free resource you know it's out
there
um and then you know of course you have
your uh Udemy's skillshare there's a lot
(36:22):
of people teaching uh product management
uh in general
um product school is another one there's
there's a lot of resources but
um everything's free you know uh there
are a few boot camps out there but I I
honestly I would say you know dive into
um maybe a few courses on
um on Udemy udemy.com is a great
(36:44):
resource uh just kind of get a few
different viewpoints on what product
management is see if you kind of like
the context
and then hey worst case scenario you can
always reach out to me I I love to
provide uh share what I know that's my
way of giving back giving back so yeah
you heard you heard that folks you need
a mentor uh you want to figure out this
(37:06):
space it's uh we're gonna need all I
know is we're going to need thousands of
of you do World building what we're
going to need for the future like out
ahead of what's happening right now so
uh definitely uh really enjoyed your
your story today and like hearing your
journey I mean Super impressive I mean
what you're doing right now is is is
(37:27):
impressive but really I think your
appetite over your career for Change and
embracing like larger scope different
scope problems is it's impressive
awesome thank you so much Ken now this
is just it's an honor to be on Postman I
mean to be with the talking with Postman
here I mean that's
I think everyone who's listening to the
(37:47):
podcast you all know it's like Postman
we've used the tool that this tool has
saved our lives especially when you're
talking about the uh uh even basic offs
right authentication methods right you
know you don't want to have to
do everything manually every time post
man the tools is just amazing and uh
it's definitely one of the heartbeats of
of the API uh ecosystem for sure
(38:09):
I appreciate that I really really
enjoyed today Rickey this has been great
thanks for joining us awesome thank you
all you all have a great day
thanks again to Rickey for stopping by
you can find more about Ricky on
LinkedIn and write games at
rightgames.com you can subscribe to the
breaking changes podcast at postman.com
(38:31):
events slash breaking Dash changes I'm
your host Kin Lane and until next time
cheers
foreign
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