Local Leadership in Action: A Conversation with MLA Nathan Neudorf

In this episode, we sit down with MLA Nathan Neudorf to explore the intersection of business leadership and public service. From his background in construction and entrepreneurship to his current role overseeing multi-billion-dollar budgets, Nathan shares practical lessons on team building, strategic growth, and servant leadership. Whether you run a small business or manage a large organization, you’ll discover insights on balancing financial responsibility, investing in people, and spearheading positive change in your community.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome
to the Built
to Lead podcast.
I got a great
guest for you
today.
I'm really excited
to introduce him.
And I think he's
going to have
a lot of value
to bring to us
today.
So, I'll welcome
Nathan Neudorf.
He is the MLA
for Less
Bridge East.
He is now
the minister
of Affordability
and Utilities,
as well

(00:21):
as the vice chair
of the
Treasury Board,
which means that
he is number two
in command
of the $72
billion budget.
That is
Alberta's budget.
So, you know,
that's not
very much weight
to deal with
and not a
not a lot
of opinions
for the
people have
about how
that should
be dealt with.
But,
he is also,
in his previous,

(00:42):
a life, I guess,
multiple business
owner,
serial
entrepreneur,
a father of five,
and, a
dear friend.
So it's
really exciting.
Thanks for coming
on, Nathan.
Really, really
great to be here.
Really excited
about this
and having
a conversation
with you.
Yeah.
Well,
you bring
as well leadership
and so many
different ways.
So yeah, I,
I do my best.

(01:03):
But you know,
I don't well,
we'll see
who has
more influence
ultimately
in the long term.
You know
I think you're
a little
bit ahead.
My staff
tells me
all the time
it's not a race,
but everything.
Yeah, well, and,
you know,
as an entrepreneur
in your position,
I know
very well myself.
It's.
Yeah, it's
always a race.
Yeah.
You can say
it's not a race.
I'm still racing,
but I can do
great.
Perfect, perfect.

(01:24):
So,
can you just
kind of
bring us up
to speed?
On your backstory,
I think you're
you've done a lot
in your career
already
at this point,
and there's
a lot of lessons
to be learned,
and that's.
I would just love
to know
that backstory.
Yeah.
Thanks, Gary.
I have I'm 50
just to give
you some just
just 50.
I was

(01:44):
married at 20,
so we've
been married.
I was never
married for
30 years.
We have
this congrats
children as well.
Oh, nice.
So that's that one
exciting for us.
And we're,
we've lived
in Alaska
for last 30 years.
That's
where our old
married life
has been here.
We were born
and raised
on the West Coast.
What school
out there?
I was went to both
the British

(02:05):
Columbia
Institute
of Technology, and
I'm, like
a registered
nurse,
and I am a
civil
engineering
technologist.
So we moved out
here,
she got her
nursing career.
I began
actually in
construction
surveying
related to my,
diploma.
And then
construction
started with
businesses there

(02:25):
have a
general
contracting
and finishing
company,
grew into
granite
countertops
and then
commercial
cabinets, did
some other
different things.
Have a
holding company.
We actually
started a
truffle farm in.
Oh, okay.
Let's go.
Okay. Yeah.
And bake and,

(02:47):
have
businesses for
roughly 25 years.
Sold.
Sold them off.
And then
I worked for
a large
commercial
contract
for various
construction
as a property
manager
for many years.
So I became
after my,
you know,
I took
my German
carpentry,
my old school
project
management.
So,
also
project manager.

(03:09):
And then,
then I
really took, a
right turn
and went
into politics,
which I have now
been elected
twice,
first in 2019,
that again
in 2023.
And to do that
for the last five
and a half years.
So kind of
a growth trend
and different
in different
fields, different

(03:30):
was I did
spend a lot
of years
coaching, three
different sports
soccer, baseball,
watched
and help
with rugby,
volleyball,
they've done
all those things.
Coached
my wife in soccer
for a number
of years,
played soccer,
for a lot
of years.
Played baseball
when I was kid.
Tried out for
we were talking
earlier
the Montreal Expos

(03:50):
when they were
still around.
And that's a long,
long time ago.
Yeah, like
make it.
But,
it was an honor
to try out.
Yeah.
You were there.
Just you learned
a lot of things
through a lot of
different
positions.
Being a
coach, being
a player.
Learn.
Probably
learn more
through failure
in one sense, than
through success.
And that's
one of the

(04:10):
things I
often teach
my kids is,
if you're
always right,
you don't have.
Yeah.
It's true.
Yeah.
I love the quote.
I'm trying
to remember who
it was again,
but basically
I will learn
nothing
from anything
that I say today,
right?
Yeah.
I can say
everything I want.
I'm going to learn
a thing.
I need to listen.

(04:30):
Right.
And that
often means,
you know,
being taught
by failing also.
So that's good.
Okay.
There's a lot
to unpack there.
So I'm sure asking
some questions.
So you, you're
a civil
engineering
technologist
and you come here,
did you
immediately
start a business
or did you work
for someone first?
First year.
And the bit?
I worked

(04:50):
for a year
and a half.
I worked
for an
engineering
company overall.
And so very,
very basic
level job,
serving
a lot of roads
and highways
and doing
the points
every 20 years.
So they get cut
and fill
and all the way
do the paving
and all
that stuff.
Then I was laid
off for winter.

(05:11):
It was a time
when rough
time was prepared
overtime.
Oh, yeah.
He's all
the transportation
workers.
So all those
government
employees
went to the
private sector.
So there's
no advancement.
There's no jobs
because it was
just totally
filled by
that shift.
And,
and then I found
that, like
my father,
mom was a doctor.

(05:32):
My wife went back
to the city
after
we were married
for about three
socialization
and or nurses
to become a E.R.
specialist.
I had to
do something else.
So I worked
for him
as a carpenter,
came back out
here,
got a job
and did that for
a number of years
before I did

(05:52):
become a
journeyman
carpenter,
at which point
that's
when I started.
So it's probably 5
or 6 years.
Okay. Okay.
Building up
your skill
sets and
kind of figuring
what you're
going to do
or what
you're good at,
established.
One of the things
you'll see
is not
what you know.
So, you know,
it's really true
in business,
the, the companies
I was
competing against,

(06:12):
I could do better
pricing,
I could do
better quality.
But they knew
there
they were
some other guy.
So they would hire
the other guy,
and I'd work
with him
to try
to match my price.
So it was
really hard
to break into
that market.
Yeah,
I've learned
quite a bit
about that
as of late
with our
construction
company.
It's it's
a lot of who,
who's who
and who knows who.

(06:33):
In that world.
Right.
And that's
yeah, it's
been really
interesting
learning that
because that's
not at all
how it really
has been
in the other
businesses
I've been in.
It was like
kind of,
I'm not going to
say shocking,
but when you're
making big deals
and millions
of dollars
are at stake,
there's a lot
more politics.
Get involved
or or,
you know, things
that scratching
each other's backs
or taking
care of one
another and

(06:53):
building up
together and
and again,
who, you
know, stuff, which
shone a light
on my lack of
networking
and connections
at that time,
which I'm
working on.
But yeah,
it really
is that way,
I think.
I think it's
worth highlighting
that too,
that for a
lot of people
who want to start
a business,
you kind of
have to get
yourself

(07:13):
figured out first.
Like,
what's
my skill set?
What do I actually
do?
Well,
what am I
passionate about?
And then
learn your way up.
Especially in
the trade,
like carpentry,
or even you.
You were
in engineering
and stuff
like that, but,
you know,
you kind of
had to find
your place.
In that world
and build
some
relationships.
You have to build

(07:33):
a reputation.
Nobody knows
who you are.
So how do you
exhibit
your character?
How do you exhibit
what you value?
Yeah.
People.
Yeah.
Like,
so much of it
is not just
my current goal.
Business I
believe is built
on relationship.
You can't treat

(07:54):
somebody poorly.
Yell at them,
disagree
with them.
No names.
Whatever.
However you deal
with that
situation,
you can't do that
and expect them
to come back.
Right.
And business
is a huge
amount of repeat
customers.
That's
where strength
is built.
It takes a long time
to build
that trust
when you can
break it
very quickly.

(08:14):
Yeah, yeah.
The short term,
very long term
thinking
like the long
term value
and relationship
of the
customer versus
the short term.
A lot of people,
can are
really good
at sales
and they can bring
the customers in
and get the
deals made,
but they don't
execute
well
on the back end.
And if they're
really, really
good sales,
they can keep it
going for a while.
But eventually
that comes
back around.
Right.
And I've always,

(08:34):
I always joke
that I'm
absolutely
terrible at sales
and marketing,
but
I'm operationally
excellent.
And that is
we built
all of
our companies
on operational
excellence
and customer
service,
not on
sales
and marketing,
which, you know,
those things
are good too,
and we want to add
them to that queue
as we go
and get better
at those things.
But the reality
is, is,
a good salesman
that's a bad
operator
will eventually

(08:55):
fizzle out.
But
a good operator
that's not
as great of
a salesman
will build slowly
and organically
by word of mouth.
And that
reputation,
it's huge.
It it's I think
it's obviously,
really, really
important.
And sometimes
it gets lost.
Right?
Yeah.
I, I've
saw it
a lot lately
as a, as I've done
business,
I've been
frustrated
because the,

(09:15):
the burden
of legal
and accounting
and, and
papering things
and like all of
that stuff
that goes on
because we just
can't trust
one another.
It gets bigger
and bigger
and bigger
every year.
And the bigger,
bigger companies
and
the more people
you deal with,
there's no trust.
And so they
they instead of
finding people
they trust to do
deals with,
they try
to use legal

(09:36):
to leverage
against
each other,
which really
doesn't work.
And it costs a
huge amount
of money,
and it slows
every process down
and everything
else.
And so like
if you can't
have a
good reputation,
have good
integrity and,
and trust
the people
you work with
and build trust
with the
relationships,
you get slowed
way down
and bogged down
by all these
other methods
of trying
to protect

(09:56):
yourself.
Exactly. Yeah.
So it really is
it's sort of
making
decisions early
on the direction
you're going to go
and where
you're going
to build.
Yeah.
Keep on be there.
And some of
our current
society isn't used
to longevity
or permanence.
Yeah.
It's
what can we get

(10:16):
really now
really fast.
Yeah.
I'll do something
different
tomorrow.
But its strength
is that those
that endure
is that last.
You know,
my dad always says
you have to
stick around
long enough
for the moss
to grow, and it's,
it's actually been
a really key thing
that I've
thought about
is that people
that are
entrepreneurs,
too, like,

(10:37):
tend to like,
be quick
changing
and aggressive
and go after it
and, and
pivot quickly
and
all those things
and you need
those skills.
But they can
grab too
many shiny
things and get
get too
diversified
or go too
many directions
or quit
something and
change and move
and
but nothing ever
really gets
successful
because they don't
stick to something
consistently
long enough
for the moss
to grow, right?

(10:58):
Be honest,
it was one
of life's
challenges.
I started a lot
of different
things. Yeah.
Got frustrated
with dealing
with the
same challenges
over and
over again. Yeah.
When I,
sold off
the businesses,
two of them
have me,
those ownership
groups have
been at work
hard and
grounded out,
and now they're

(11:18):
seeing success.
Huge success
that I
never realized
they had stayed
in.
It can stay
as long, right?
I real
really get
it started.
Really good at
building it up
and getting it
going.
But I got really,
really drained
with the day
to day
nitty
gritty management.
But then

(11:38):
a whole bunch of
different factors.
Yeah,
because of
the decision
to sell.
But they bought
something
that was
really good
and they had
a good foundation
and they were just
going to
continue building,
slow down
that growth rate
and other
scenarios
developed in
return for
that upside.
Yeah.

(11:59):
I've heard another
I think was
ad my lad
who said
at starting
a new business
is like
taking off
a rocket,
you know,
that fuel's
pouring in
and all the fuel
and energy
and fire
and flames
and burning
and heat,
and it's
not moving.
It's just
sitting there
vibrating,
and it's like
it's expending 70,
80% of its fuel
before it
ever moves an inch

(12:19):
to get
the momentum
to move
that giant rocket
off the ground.
And businesses
so much like that.
And again,
having started
three more
and more
businesses now,
some of them
from almost
nothing and
others from,
you know,
some sped up start
just like that,
just pure
raw energy
and focus
that's required
to get nothing,
to become
something
just off

(12:39):
that ground
that one inch
is, is huge.
It's a ton of work
and it's extremely
tiring
and challenging.
And and
most people
burn out there.
They didn't have
enough juice
to get it
going off
the ground. Right.
And it does say
like those
those companies
enduring says
a lot
about your
leadership
and the foundation
that you build,
right?
Like those
those guys
that came up
through

(13:00):
and I know both
the guys
that are running
the businesses
that you're
talking about
are super legit
guys that
probably have
a lot of respect
for you
and what
you poured
into them
in the early days
of their careers.
I'll leave that
for them
to say, yeah,
let's again,
great, great
individuals,
great couples.
I couldn't
do without
their lives.

(13:20):
That provides
for that.
But yeah, they
they carry
on a lot
of principles
and crew and,
I still talk
to this day.
Yeah.
As much
about the day
to day decisions,
but they're.
So it's
just bouncing.
Yeah. Yeah.
It just
it feels good
that they're
still there.
Yeah.
When they were
the right people

(13:40):
like you brought
in the
right people
and you
handed it off
to right people,
and then
they endured.
And again,
whoever
gets credit
for that,
they're
getting credit
for being the
right people.
But you
attracted and
and worked
with those guys
at that time.
And that's huge.
Like it really is
when companies
they get sold
or passed on that
they don't have
a high
success rate.
So this year now

(14:00):
I think,
yeah, we're
talking seven,
eight, ten years.
Again
the sales process
it's it's over
done. And
1215 years
for the first one.
So yeah
they're doing
really well.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
So I was
kind of segueing
from working in
and getting your
journeyman ticket
and all that
educating

(14:21):
and learning
and reputation
building too.
Okay. Oh.
How did you start
your first
business?
Where did you go
with that?
From there.
So the first
business,
where was
your structure
for about
five years?
A friend
of the company,
and I
was getting
a bit
frustrated with
sort of
the direction
the company was

(14:41):
working for.
I was going,
and
what we were doing
just just wasn't
enough.
We made the decision
to step away
and
start our own thing,
and we started
it was integrity
builders.
We started,
to carpet
install and
finishing work.
She had a
family connection
to a carpet

(15:01):
shop in Caldwell,
and we did
the carpet
installs there.
And then we also
had a connection,
did some final
finishing
for custom homes,
hanging the doors
and baseboards.
He ran outside.
I did most
of the cabinet
install,
worked on it
for about a year.
And then
right
when we were going
to incorporate
and sign
partnership

(15:21):
agreement papers
and all of those
kind of things.
Yeah,
I just got
a job offer
to move up
in that
custom home
building side
of it,
and we called
that direction.
And I'm like,
we're
we're going
to sign
partnership papers
tomorrow.
So,
I have a decision
at that point
to either
go with him

(15:42):
and be an employee
again
for somebody else
that I have
no relationship
with,
which we not
been working
towards for the
last year or
so.
So I had
very little money,
very little
saving, I think.
I,
I think I
bought the
company for
$5,000.

(16:02):
Yeah.
Like that.
So a lot of
people can relate
to that story.
I think
their cleaner
skills
are something,
very small,
humble beginnings.
And, and
we continue
to build it to
the cabinet
and still get that
a lot
all across Canada
into us,

(16:23):
even a little bit
installing
different things.
I took it for
from side
for one cabinet
shop to 2 or 3
different
cabinet shelves.
We did a lot of,
brands like
the chatters
hair salons,
installed
40 or 50 loads
across Canada.
Yeah.
The Chris,

(16:44):
what's it?
One other one?
I think
the name of
the restaurant,
but a very
well-known
restaurant.
5 or 6 of
them at
the Albert.
Tony Roma's.
Yeah,
it was in Alberta.
And then we even
did one
to Toronto,
and then
we did the
Ruth's, Ruth's
Chris restaurant.
So we just
really built up
a brand.

(17:04):
Yeah.
For some other,
there's some
workshops of East
that were similar
to a lot
of commercial.
When Chipotle
did their major
expansion.
There's 30,
30 some odd stores
in the expansion.
We installed
the millwork
inside of us,
13 of them.
This is like
the big jobs
and big companies
like working

(17:24):
with big
corporations
and stuff
like that.
And like we think
the people
are just over
15 boards,
which are fraction
of different
things.
And then we, we've
that's
where we branched
out of,
just some
challenges with
installing for
someone else
and how
it was
constructed.
And
that was at the site.
And so we

(17:45):
branched out
and eventually
started
on Calvert,
something which is
still going on.
And, the trend
towards
solid surface
countertops.
Granite.
Yeah.
You got popular.
Yeah, really
popular there.
It was the new thing.
So we would
venture to that.
That was
one of
the first shops
and
and to do that.
Okay.
Let's see.

(18:05):
Yeah.
Having known
the Kelly
that runs,
that is
the the beginnings
in the process
in the machinery
and the
learning curve
and the risk
and all like,
like and
having watched
all that go,
as he
because I
kind of became
closer with him
when he kind of
was buying it out
and taking it
on his own.
And again,

(18:25):
that's for him.
A very scary time
and a lot to
to learn
and to do.
But yeah,
watching them
go through that
like that's
tough stuff.
Like that's not
and we didn't
know anything
about it.
So yeah it's
you don't
even know what
the risk is.
That slabs
of rock,
which is
what granite
countertops
are on the back
of the trailer,

(18:45):
dancing
on the highway.
Those cabinets are
breaking
pretty high
frequency.
Oh, yeah.
Breakage.
Yeah.
This was major
you know,
transport
of how to
carry them.
I don't know
if you realize
like those
countertops are.
Oh yeah.
Some of them
are massive.
You.
Yeah.
702,000
pound counter.
And two of us
lifting a 1,000

(19:06):
pound countertop
into places
and saying, yeah,
no, no, we did it.
We didn't know
that.
Yeah,
we've learned
a lot
and had a
lot of covet.
Oh, shit.
Yeah.
Transported
out repair.
It was
strength of it.
How to claw holes
in it
so that they're
they're
esthetically

(19:26):
pleasing.
Some of our
first holes
included.
Some in my house.
Sections here,
about 2.5in there.
And so you can see
it's not even
crazy.
Yeah,
we have a problem.
We get it.
Oh, for sure.
But, like,
that's just
how you start
to like.
And again,
entrepreneurs
like that
level of risks
that they accept,

(19:47):
whether knowingly
or unknowingly
is huge.
And and
most people
just can't
even fathom
like that concept
that like,
I don't
know anything
about
granite
countertops,
but we're going
to figure it out
and we're
just start.
Yeah, right.
That is a
huge step to take.
It's a
it's a lot
to handle.
And but
some people just
they believe
in themselves
on the level
of being able
to overcome.

(20:07):
Right.
You just
trust that I can
I'm going
to be able
to do this.
So to be honest,
the first time
through
some divine
project
with Stuart
trying to
reach out to
somebody and
that's like
all he
was a
traveling salesman
all over
Western Canada
is never
in Calgary.
One day we called
and they
said, like,
how did you get
this number?

(20:27):
I said, well,
we found
through this,
not the other.
Are you around?
He said, listen,
I was just gone
for three
weeks of sales.
I'm in
my office today
and I'm gone
tomorrow for three
more weeks
of sales.
If you can be
here in an hour,
we're talking.
We went over
to that,
set of
a whole
new contract.
It's changed
the entire
trajectory from,

(20:50):
a declining,
provider
for a supplier
for us
out of Calgary
to get up
to one of the top
three in Calgary.
Totally changed
the trajectory.
Yeah,
getting that
supply chain.
But it's just
that right moment.
Right place, right
time needed to go
that way.
Some of that
stuff happens
where there's
people like,
well, businesses
are made
and broken off

(21:11):
of random
situations.
Like,
I know
some
people is like,
why are you in
this business?
Well,
I ran into
this guy
and I didn't
know him,
and he was at
a hockey game.
And then
I thought
that was a
good idea.
And we connected
and off I went.
Right?
And you're
just like,
that's that's
how that's
what happens
there is.
Yeah.
For sure.
Having
the boldness
to take a step
because

(21:31):
because we
don't take it
that steps
out there.
Yeah, we did that.
We did that a lot.
And
that's.
Yeah.
Well you
can get burned
on those
deals too.
I know
there's a
saying that
I've heard
recently that
that really
impacted me
in this.
It lacquers
for the prepared.
Right.
And it's like
when you're
prepared
and it's not
even prepared.

(21:51):
Like I have
everything
together to do
what I need to do.
I'm prepared
to take a risk
or I'm prepared
to say yes,
or I'm prepared to
because I believe
in myself
or whatever
it takes.
There's
a different kind
of preparedness,
but you can't
take advantage
of a lucky
or
a positive situation
if you're
not prepared
to take advantage
of it.
Yeah, I love it.
I mean that
in itself
in sports
all the
time, right?
They call them

(22:12):
good players.
Lucky you know
good players
create.
Because
there's for
vision there is.
And the look
where you go.
Yeah.
For the pockets.
And they go there
before balls.
Throw
em all those
kind of things.
Right thing.
Yeah.
In many aspects
you do
create
your own luck
and you're right.
Just by
being prepared
and being willing.

(22:32):
It's like
it's not
being afraid
to take that step.
Yeah.
And just betting
on yourself.
Right.
It's a
lot of times
it's a big bet.
You said you had,
you had gotten up
to 50 employees.
You don't get
to 50 employees
as I well know, by
not having
good leadership
in people skills.
How what
what role

(22:52):
do you think
leadership played
in the business
building process
for you?
Like where
what did you
learn?
Read any stories
that you're like,
okay, this was
when I figured
it out. Almost.
Yeah.
So a lot of it
that's, you know,
you have to trust,
one person can't
actually that's
in a really good
way or their role,
you know,
here's a leaders

(23:14):
and you have
to empower people
to do that.
So so building
early on building
relationships,
knowing trust.
And I lead
I leaned
into character,
people
I could trust,
the people
I could talk to,
the people
that did
what they said.
Yeah,
no mistakes

(23:35):
or mistakes
are going
to happen.
So I never
punished for
mistakes,
because
people are going
to make mistakes.
We focus on
solutions
and we focused
on honesty
and those kind
of things,
and then
trying to manage
a better process
so we could, limit
the number
of mistakes
or human error
that occurred

(23:56):
when people
that were lie
lying
committees, honest
or hiding things.
For instance,
in a cabinet shop,
if somebody
makes a mistake
or tries
to hide it
when you first
cut the good,
then it goes to
the identity,
then it goes
to sanding,
and then it goes
to finishing,
and then it goes
to the assembly.
Because that
mistake is written
on, it just

(24:17):
gets multiplied.
Yeah.
It's you're,
you're you're
increasing your,
sunk costs.
You get higher
and then
don't hide it
because now,
now we have to
not just pay
for the
new piece
of material.
We have to
repay
for all the labor
and material
that did,
all the labor
that went
into sanding
and all the
labor materials
went into
finishing it,

(24:37):
and all the labors
that went
into half
assembling it
until
we found that
it wasn't
the right size.
So we have to
go back
and fix
five things.
Yeah, we catch up
and we're
only fixing
three or 2 or 1.
And so
that's that,
that character,
that honesty,
that leadership.
And we invest
for a time
we actually
went through
character
development

(24:57):
programs, modules.
We had some
recommended
reading.
Not a lot of
people are it
okay.
Yeah I've I've had
some challenges
with that too.
We found the most
success in
talking through,
talking through
scenarios.
What does it mean
to be honest?
Which is it
mean to,

(25:17):
discipline
correctly?
You know,
because it's
that's
hard, right?
Oh, yeah.
Really quickly.
I'm doing that.
Yeah.
Well,
being
a good leader
when you're
dealing with
conflict
is actually
some of
the hardest
leading that
you're going
to do.
It's that
a tough
situations
that that
really shows
your colors
as a leader.
How how good
you are
as a leader
to treat people
when things
go badly.

(25:38):
Blame.
Yeah.
Responsibility
and say
that's my fault
as the
owner
operator leader
because I
didn't train you
or I didn't
forewarn you or.
Yeah, angry
and rattling
and blaming you
so I can
feel better
and then you
being disgruntled
to the point
where, you know,
we correct
the relationship
or it breaks down
and you quit.
Yeah.

(25:58):
I always think
it's such
a great
technique to,
look at what
you could
have done
differently first
and lead
with that.
It's like,
whatever
the instance is,
the guy cuts
the board wrong
and then
it gets hidden
and it goes
through
the process.
And now we're
going to have
a conversation
about this okay?
It's like,
all right.
But there's
two parts in
this mistake
that happen.
I'm going to lead
with my part.

(26:18):
Like I
clearly didn't
make it
clear to you
and I didn't
teach you or
I didn't show you
so that you had
a good
understanding
of why
this is such
a big deal.
And so you didn't
call it out early
because I didn't
set you up
for success
in that way,
and I could have
done better.
And I'm
going to make sure
that happens
right now.
You could have done
this and this
and this, right?
And if you
get a little bit

(26:38):
vulnerable people
or just open
and honest,
there's a lot
better ways
to communicate
and deal
with things.
But, you know,
people don't
want to
take
responsibility,
right?
And they want
to be made
to look foolish.
Yeah,
that's a question.
Great.
I asked
this question
and this person
made fun of me,
so I'm never going
to ask questions.
We really
have to work on
that call
through to say,
why are you asking

(26:59):
that question?
Because if
we're not asking
why, you're
asking, obviously
we didn't
treat you
to know the answer
to that. Yeah.
So we yeah,
those kind
of culture things
really matter.
Yeah.
And as we yeah,
as we've
gotten bigger
I really realized
too, like even
from difference
between 30 to 50
to 150 to 200,
you're
mid-level
management

(27:20):
and mid-level
leadership,
is the thing
that you
quickly realize
that you're
letting too
loose with
because
these people
don't,
they haven't
had enough
leadership
training,
or they're new
to a position
that they're
entered,
they've worked
their way up,
but they don't
have experience
leading
other people,
and they're
just going to do
what's works
in the past.
So if
yelling works
for them
in the past
or that's how
they were raised,
that's what

(27:40):
they're going
to do.
If berating people
is how they were,
treated at their
previous job
and that worked,
then they're
going to do that
and they're
they're just using
their experience,
good or bad,
to create
leadership skills
when really
they need to
be taught.
Leadership is
just as technical
as any trade
or any
education system
you can get.

(28:00):
Like you could do
four years
of leadership and,
and still
not have seen
a quarter of what
there is to gain
in that industry.
Right?
Notwithstanding,
people are
different.
Individuals
different, and
there are common
traits
or common
strengths, but
each individual
is an inch.
So being able
to say,
what's your
learning style?

(28:20):
And
I've worked with
some incredibly
talented
carpenters,
in trades people,
they don't read.
Well, you know,
I don't like it.
I've never
done it.
It's not their
strength.
So obviously
you can't
just give them
a booklet
of instructions,
say, read this
and go do it.
Yeah,
that doesn't work.
Yeah.
Especially in
the trade
where people work

(28:41):
with their hands.
Like, often
they went
that direction
because that's
this isn't
the thing I like.
I like working
with my
answer them.
They're excellent
at their job,
but they're
not a book person
taking the time
to show them
once or twice.
Yeah.
Right.
So that requires
a patience
and it requires a,
an ability
to understand

(29:01):
and really see
an individual.
Yeah.
Like listen
to that.
And often
to the
points of
conflict,
they would
say things like
what does
this have to do
with the problem
I have in here?
But as you
talk them
through it
and work them
through the
language, you
you begin
to understand that

(29:21):
they had a fight
with their
spouse
in the morning,
which caused them
to be late
to drop
the kid off
for school,
which caused them
to be late
for work,
which caused them
to forget
their their tools.
And then
they were rushing.
Somebody's
got them at work
and then
they didn't.
They weren't
thinking straight
and they read the
manga wrong.
And all of these
things are
all linked to

(29:43):
do you
just need
to take a
little bit of time
off this
weekend and
work extra
with your folks,
and you're
going to be in a
better mindset
because you don't
make these
mistakes,
and it doesn't
really
have anything
to do
with work today
at all.
Work with
something else.
Yeah.
So people
it's huge
because if
you don't

(30:04):
follow
those,
those high
pressure
system systems
just deteriorate
like relationships
or like
bank accounts
if you continually
withdraw.
Yeah.
Withdraw.
And they,
they get
frustrated
and they
so they don't
they start
talking about
what
the results are.
You start
talking about
how some of these
treating them are
because the boss

(30:24):
is treating them.
And then
also way
down the road
they go,
I'm quitting.
Look at
what happened.
Yeah, I think some
of the straw
that broke
the camel's back
or you had
it was paved
a long ways
along the way,
something
and I'll
give Craig
Rochelle credit
for teaching me
this,
whether it's
from him or not.
It's just
having a
margin to care.

(30:45):
I think
when we're a
high performer
and we we are hard
driving
and we're getting
a lot done
and we're building
a business
and we're doing
100 things
all at once.
And but we
also need to be
a good leader.
If we don't
leave ourselves
a margin to care,
then everything
becomes
transactional.
And my
personality type
is very
analytical,
transactional.
It's like I'm
looking
for outcomes
out of outcomes.

(31:05):
Outcomes. Right.
But good
operational. Yeah.
Operationally
excellent.
But when we comes
to leadership,
we have to have
margin to care
to people
because we can't
lead people
if they don't
trust us
and if we're
not invested
in them. Right.
And so in order
for you
to know anything
about that person
and get to
the bottom
of the root of it,
and I've
discovered
and read
even that 99%

(31:27):
of conflicts
at work
are related
to interpersonal
or personal
issues.
It's completely
nothing to do
with the job,
nothing to do with
the situation.
Not like
you have to go
to the next level.
But if you don't
know the person,
or you have no
understanding or
emotional
intelligence
or awareness
of what
they're going
through,
you really
can't help them.
You can't
lead them.
Yeah,
you're handcuffed

(31:47):
to that.
And so
as a leader,
you need to
understand that
you have to
have a margin
to know.
My people
have to be
invested in them
on some level.
I have to have
a margin
is talking to,
our, our
leader of,
one of the guys
in the
mechanic shop
today.
And I was saying,
we don't have
a really
clean venue
for guys
to just
generally chat
about how things
are going

(32:08):
with them.
And because,
again,
they clock
in for work
and they're
on the clock,
and now they
need to get
their, their,
utilization up
and they have
to get everything
to these numbers.
And we're all
a very hard
driving,
efficient
group of guys,
and they're
all really high
performance
people.
And that's great.
But there's
no margin.
We didn't
give anyone
a margin
to care to

(32:28):
to visit, to chat
and like they'll
it's open to
our policy.
But if you're
got your hands
in an engine
and you just
want to have
a quick
conversation
because you
feel like you're
out of the loop on
how the company
is doing,
and you'd really
like to know,
that's not
that important
compared to me
staying
on the clock
and
getting this done.
But where
is the time
for that
to happen?
Right.
And our society

(32:49):
has changed
so much.
Just yesterday,
just years ago,
families were
far more
interconnected,
different
generations
of family.
And everybody
had a cousin or,
you know,
somebody close
by to help out
with whatever.
And almost
everybody
in society
went to
a charitable,
either

(33:09):
a Christian
organization
or some faith
based
organization or
a club
or a crew
or something.
They were just
part of
an organization.
So they got that.
We don't have
that now.
And I think
those vast
majority
of families
are broken
or fractured
in some way.
So where do you go
for that

(33:29):
interpersonal
support?
Yeah.
Ization.
Because
whether you're the
hardest rock
of an island
into introvert
guy,
you still need it.
Yeah.
You still need
to share
and have
like some
camaraderie
and connection or.
Yeah, or whatever.
You need
that connection.

(33:49):
So we are
not islands
as much as we try
to do that.
So people
go to work,
they work
and they send us.
Yeah.
And if those
relationships
aren't safe,
if they aren't
mutually
respectful,
if they aren't
trusted,
they're not going
to anchor.
Yeah.
That's
why culture is
so important.

(34:10):
And I think
about this
so often,
like what
you talked about.
I've talked to
my wife
about this
at length
within our family
and our friend.
It's like,
okay, well,
again,
we go to church
and we connect
with a group of
like take
the religious side
out of it.
I'm going to
a community
of people
that have
generally
the same values
in me,
and we're spending
time in proximity
with one
each other
and creating
relationships

(34:30):
that's happening
there. Okay.
What is
the average person
who's not
connected to
any kind of
religious group?
Where are they
getting
their community
and their
connection from?
And it's like,
okay,
as other parents,
there's okay.
I take my kid
to school
and I meet
other parents.
And so we're
demographically
there,
but there's a
wide variety
and we
don't necessarily
unifier connect
on values.
They're sports,
same sort

(34:50):
of thing.
Do we go
to the bar
on the weekends?
Single people
spend a lot
of time
in these
other scenarios,
but it's like
you're not
connecting
with people
that are
unified on
your values
and believe
what you believe
and follow
that
organizational
community,
which is culture.
You're looking
for people
at the
same culture
as you.
Well,
if your business
has a very
strong culture,
then only people

(35:11):
of the right
culture in there.
Then you have
that safety,
you have
that connection.
You start
building
friendships
and relationships
and business.
Whereas if culture
is not cared
about whatsoever
by the business
or organization
or whatever group
it is,
then you're
with random people
who you don't
align with,
and so you
don't build
friendships
and relationships
and comfort
that transactional
finance for
eight hours

(35:32):
to get.
One second,
I've not invested
one thing
outside of the
contractual
agreement.
Yeah. I'm done.
I'm not.
I'm
all kinds
of things
fall
through the cracks
because somebody
called mad at You
wasn't there.
They wrote
you know, that
fell off
your desk.
Yeah.
Because no one
really cares
because it's
transactional

(35:52):
and a lot of ass
covering
everywhere
because they're
looking for
I got to protect
my transaction.
These eight hours
to get that
I gotta
look
somewhere else
I don't want to.
Yeah.
And I can
see in the book
I know
and it kills me
when I see that
and why
I think it's
so important
for businesses
to build a culture
and to build
a place

(36:13):
where
people
actually can
form friendships
and make
these small teams
that become
communities
because people
actually need it.
And in our
Western culture
in North America,
independence
is touted
as such
an
important thing,
but it's
actually counter
to what
who we are
as a communal
human beings.
We need people.
We need our tribe.
We need our family.

(36:33):
And it's just it's
a really
rough spot
that we've kind
of backed herself
into socially.
One really
interesting thread
for this
conversation
that we wanted to
explore
is the
one of the number
one challenges
facing Canada.
At least back
to this issue.
Yeah.
Because,
in Canada,
about 80%

(36:53):
or more of the
business cat,
our small
business,
you know,
they haven't
been able
to make the step
to big business
where they're
at virtually.
It's,
the number
of employees
who employ and,
gross
domestic product
that used to sell
those kind
of things.
The United States
is twice
our productivity.

(37:13):
Less than
50% of
their businesses
are small
or at least
40% of
the businesses
are taking
this step
to become big.
You can't do that
if you
don't trust.
Yeah,
if you can't grow
and I I've seen it
time and
time again.
You have
ten employees.
You get up to
15, things
go wrong.

(37:34):
You layoff
a bunch,
you go back
to ten,
you're
comfortable,
you start
making some money
again and go,
we should expand.
And then just
this is the half
the reason
this podcast
exists is because
I've seen
so many people
get going
in their
small business
and then
hit one of
these roadblocks
or negative
situations
and then go
back into
whether they
end up
shutting their
business down

(37:54):
or never grow it
any further.
They get burned
and
they don't want
to do it anymore.
And there's
there's ways
to overcome
these things
and grow
into that.
But like so
many people
just don't
get past
this kind
of blockades
that hold them
back.
At least it's
now that almost
the number one
national issue.
Well, productivity
because
one of the
biggest things
in productivity

(38:15):
is businesses
reinvesting in
their employees
and reinvesting
in technology
and equipment.
But small
businesses can't
afford to do that.
No.
Like really good
machinery
and equipment
and really
good training
for your staff is
super expensive.
Yeah.
So if you
don't have
that mass
of dollars

(38:36):
you can't do that
reinvestment.
It just
doesn't work.
Yeah.
To take
a construction
company
that builds
houses to
a modular home
where you're
going from 20
or 30 or 40 houses
a year
to 4 or 500,
you need a
big building.
You need some
big equipment
and machinery.
You need big,
big stuff
on the things
that make
you faster
and more
profitable.
Take huge

(38:56):
capital investment
and small
businesses.
They can't do it.
They just
can't do it.
You look at it now
that the US
is double
our productivity,
our smarter
are the
more capable.
None
of those things,
but they have
more dollars
to invest.
I was going to say
it's a lot easier
to borrow money
in the States,
and it is in
Canada too,
which isn't
the main factor.
But there's

(39:16):
a lot of factors.
Yeah,
it's financing or
yeah, red tape,
but it takes the
wind out of people
sails for sure,
as you
well know,
in your
line of work now,
it's like business
owners are
get frustrated
and they just
lose momentum
because they
get bogged down
by all
the limiting
factors.
Can't do this.
You can't do that.

(39:37):
These
these things
just kind of slow
everything down.
And then
they give up
like why.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's
really hard.
So that's
why government
policy
is so critical.
Yeah.
It's all wild.
I didn't
realize that
that was
such a big thing.
It makes sense
logically to me.
Like because
we're so much
smaller,
we have such a
big area of land

(39:58):
with fewer center
people in places,
and we don't have
as much money
flowing in
investment,
all these
other things.
But that big of
a gap is wild
and is
at the top nine
over the last
ten years
or whatever
has been the top
this year,
Northwest
Territories,
because
they've done
a lot of
work with them
and they're very
small population.
Yeah, past Alberta

(40:18):
and we've also had
a massive surge
in population,
which we're.
So is that like
GDP per capita.
Yeah okay.
Yeah.
And we're
propped up
to be honest,
with our oil
and gas because
yeah we do
pretends
that it it
artificially
increases.
Yeah.
It's huge dollars
numbers out.
We're still
the leader
but we're by far
the worst thing.

(40:38):
But we've
got to do more.
We've got to
be more.
And consumption
got to
be more shipping
and manufacturing.
We've got
to be more
in more
productivity
with less people.
Which is,
again, both us
and the states
have
extremely low,
unemployment.
Yeah.
For them,
like especially
Alberta has a
lower is it again
linked to the
massive influx
of immigration.

(40:59):
Yeah.
And it's
a bit of a way
to to absorb them.
Because
unemployment is
it's a bit of an
interesting
statistic
because it's
how many people
are looking.
Yeah.
And also
and they'll get
incorporated
into the
workforce.
Just not in their
first desire.

(41:20):
Yeah.
Depends
how picky we are.
You mean
there's
this complexity
and it can depend
on supports
a lot of
first time
he comes to
Canada or ever
they'll be on
a government
support.
They'll take some
English training
or some
secondary
training.
And there's
a natural time lag

(41:41):
before they
can really enter
the workforce for.
For real? Yeah.
So what
you're saying
is the
the biggest reason
that we're
struggling
with an
unemployment
number would be
because of
immigration.
But even I would
say, again,
I'll ask this
rather than
say it,
but from a
historical
standpoint,
we have still
much lower
unemployment
than ever,
which is

(42:01):
pointing to
we don't
produce enough
for the amount
of workers
we have. Right?
Like if
unemployment were
skyrocketing,
it would be
because we
got more
productive
with less workers.
Yeah, potentially
things that we're
looking at is
supply chain.
Right.
Like there's
there's
lots of issues
where we know
Canada and Alberta
are the
natural resource

(42:22):
rich. Yeah.
But where are
we shipping it
to get produce.
Paper
over gas.
Yeah.
Lumber.
Lumber or or.
Controversial one.
But yeah.
Coal which is
used to make steel
that is mined
in Alberta
and B.C.
gets shipped
to China
to be converted
into steel product

(42:42):
that we buy back
at multiple times.
Oh I yeah
I've done the
narrative of that.
So yeah we dig
the coal
out of the ground.
We put it
on, a truck
that goes
on a train
and a train
to the ocean
on the barge,
and then it does
all that,
and then it comes
all the way back
here.
It's like,
this is the
craziest thing
of all time.
Order.
Yeah.
The uranium.

(43:03):
But listen
Canada
has incredible
natural resources.
We need to produce
more of that.
Yeah.
As it
has gone to
natural resources.
Now what we.
Yeah.
Creating
finished product
out of
that manufacture
whether it
be manufacturing
processing
whatever.
Yeah it's for sure
I was talking
to a guy
like I
can't remember
the country now.

(43:24):
He was a rep
for one of our
tire suppliers
and he was
from a country,
across the ocean.
And he was talking
about his country
and another
country
and another
country,
and basically one
country
was resource rich.
One country
did all
the processing,
manufacturing in
another country,
shipped like
it had to
go through
that country
to get out.
And he said,
which one
do you think's
the wealthiest

(43:44):
country?
The one that
produces
everything,
like the
why not
the commodity
country?
Well,
because they need
the production.
They can only
sell it
to the people
that can produce.
No one else
is buying it.
Right.
And so
they said,
this country's
super wealthy,
this country's
doing okay
and this
country's broke.
And it's all just
because if
because of
who does
the processing
and the
manufacturing of
the product.
That's why

(44:04):
things like
these are
some of
the questions
that will take
national
leadership.
This is all get
together at
that level,
or whether there's
a federal
government
that really
invests in
critical
infrastructure
preservation
to develop these
supply chains.
But we've got
the lumber.
Yeah, the US
or Japan
or Europe,

(44:25):
and we keep
the worst stuff
here.
We need to
really think about
what are we
producing?
We have the,
how do we improve
our system
and get out
of our own way
in a lot of
the cases to stop
Overregulating
are stopping
people
who want to
invest that thing
or not.
Yeah.
Scare away
investment.
That's
another thing.
Often, like when
when it's unstable

(44:45):
or they don't
have confidence
that that can be
done here
or I imagine to
like some
some of these big
investor ers
or manufacturers
or whatever
struggle
with the lack
of population
to do
some of the things
that they need
as well.
And there's just
a
spatial situation
that we're in.
We having
mountains
and different
terrain
and weather
and all that,
like being
in transportation.
I know how big
of an effect

(45:06):
that has on
on the
supply chain,
right.
Like some really
good attributes
that,
MBK have.
Is huge.
Population
is really tiny.
Yeah.
It doesn't take it
much to get it
there and
move it around
like it's
different
challenges.
It's there but
I don't
we're not moving.

(45:26):
No I think
we could.
Yeah.
There's so much
for us
to improve upon.
There's just
how do we not
just look
for challenges.
Yeah for sure.
But some of those
hundred percent.
Yeah, absolutely.
Be good.
I think the more
we can be
solutions oriented
to collaborative
work together,
realize that
one of the
strengths
of Kevin,

(45:46):
what are
the strengths
of Alberta
and continue
to build on those.
One of
my favorite
leadership books
to this point
is
Strengthsfinder.
And the
basic
philosophy is
that, listen,
we all have
strengths
and weaknesses.
You can spend
a lot of time
and energy
on your weaknesses
to have
strong weaknesses.
Or you can
focus on things
that your

(46:07):
natural strengths
allow others
to do, things
that they're
strong at,
that you're not.
And if you develop
those that
you have strong
strengths,
yeah, that's
basically
specialization.
Do you remember
who the authors
of that book?
No I should
I'm like,
if it's Patrick
Lanzini or Marcus
Buckingham
because
both of them
talk about
similar topics.

(46:27):
But yeah,
Marcus Buckingham
is from
I believe
he was either
Australia, UK, he
but he,
he focuses on that
and his
concept is,
is that the,
the best highest
performing leaders
or people
are what he
calls spiky.
So they have
really, really
strong strengths
and they lean
into those
strengths
and then they
beat everybody
because they're
so strong.

(46:47):
They're not
focusing on
improving their
weaknesses.
They're going, I'm
great at this.
I'm, you know,
the Michael Phelps
of bartending.
And so
I'm going to be
the best bartender
in the world,
and I'm
going to use
my specific key
things to do that.
And then those are
the people
that really
explode.
It's interesting
because it's
tied to
mental health.
You do something,
you're good at.

(47:08):
Yeah.
You're happier.
You're
you're satisfied.
Return on it.
Whereas if
you spend
a lot of time
in weaknesses
you don't do well.
You're not happy.
You're
continually
frustrated
and you're not
getting
a good return
because other
people do it.
Yeah.
Why do you do
that.
I agree
it's a, it's
a, it's
a major factor
that domino effect

(47:28):
the same.
You're going to
be healthier.
You can be
happier.
You're getting
more satisfied.
You're
being more
successful.
Doing
something you're
good at. Yeah.
God's gifted you
with those things
you want.
So. Yeah.
Looking for
something else
you don't have.
Yeah.
No, I
totally agree.
That's a
really good point.
I could see

(47:48):
we could talk
for eight hours.
So I'm going
to try and
get this refocused
here.
So, yeah, you
you had
multiple
businesses
and you exited
and you worked
for another one.
What I want
to kind of
touch on
here is your,
your transitioning
from being in
the private sector
and
in the business
world
and then moving
into politics.
I know we,
you and I have
talked about it
on a personal

(48:08):
levels
at multiple times,
but just
kind of sharing,
being called
into that.
And then also
what's
starkly different
that I think
a lot
of entrepreneurs
maybe
wouldn't
understand,
and what
leadership
skills in,
you used from
the private sector
to the
public sector
and the ones that
you had to
change and
get better at,
really good

(48:29):
points.
So, a lot
of public sector,
it's about
just like, it's
about serving,
serving
the community
we have is,
you know,
Alberta
and Alberta
history at all
and conservative
governance
for many years.
And in
a different
government,
different
is right.
Retired,
construction

(48:49):
all over.
And a
lot of
conversations
complaining
about government.
And I
just got tired.
I don't like
all the time.
I'm not happy
around me.
I'm happy.
It doesn't
solve anything.
Not changing.
So I decided
that I'm not going
to live
a life
of complete.
I'm going to
step up
and step forward
and see

(49:10):
if I can make
a difference.
Yeah,
fortunate enough,
I I've got
to make journey.
I'll get into it.
But let's
just say that,
in 2019,
my name ended up
on the ballot
and I was
fortunate enough
to win.
You'll say, what
was it?
What you expected?
I actually don't
really remember
knowing what
to expect.

(49:30):
I knew
where I was going
to work.
The legislature,
I knew
we were going
to pass
laws, legislation
and regulation.
No idea.
That process.
Yeah.
No idea
what it meant
to get up
and question
period.
Ask a question.
Give a member
statement
of bills.
How little,
influence
I actually had
on the
creation
of a bill.

(49:51):
And when
to utilize that
little bit
of time.
The most
dramatic effect,
most
productive way.
So and
then realizing
that you don't
just serve
the people
that voted
for you
and elected
you, you serve
all the people.
You really
don't like you?
And so
the leadership

(50:11):
one is you're
in front of people
a lot more.
You're in the
public eye more on
social
media,
the cameras,
the newspapers,
the radio
stations.
I love all
the criticism
and critique.
And our,
our generation,
our age,
particularly the
social media.

(50:31):
Yeah.
Just the new
ability to
to critique
and see
and touch
everything that
we see now.
They don't want
listen to an
our explanation.
No, no,
you got 30s
or less.
A lot of problems
that we face
can't be solved
in 30s or like
or explained
in 30 minutes.
So that's
really hard.
It's really hard.

(50:52):
I like
I like
having long,
in-depth
conversations,
talking
through issues,
looking at the
different pathways
available to us.
At some point
you have to make
a decision.
I tell people
all the time
when you're
voting,
you don't
get to vote 70%
for and
30% against.
Yeah.
It's yes or no.
That's
that's it.
There are

(51:12):
times and places
where you can
imagine things
or speak
to things,
but
we all know
life isn't
just black
and white know.
And it's hard
to get that
we want to that
greatly solve
this problem.
Okay.
I can't
on the people
asking you
to solve it.
Typically don't
know 5 to 10% of
the nuance

(51:32):
of what goes
into that problem.
And the person
asking you
is on the right
or the
left of
that problem.
And so they think
they know
how the problem
needs to
be solved.
And then
there you are
in the middle
with all
the details
going, I can't
I there's no
perfect solution
to this.
Someone's
going to be upset
and
I appreciate it,
but I
have their
opinion.

(51:52):
It's a good point.
And how they like
to be resolved
in their
person long
or didn't win.
Great.
I'm it's not
unilateral
dictatorship.
See the
not for
Jesus not
good leader
lateral
dictatorship.
If I'm a minister
of whatever
ministry
and it's
not unilateral
dictatorship
whether you're
the premier
or the
Prime minister,
we work for
a democracy.
That means

(52:12):
a majority
of people
have to agree
with an idea
to be able
to move it
forward. Yeah.
And there's a
legislative cycle.
We don't sit
every day of the
we have a
full session in,
winter slash
spring session.
And there's
an order process
for which
legislation
gets brought
forward.
There's
tons of

(52:33):
legislation
in every province.
And in Canada,
as at
the federal level,
that never sees
the light of day
because other
priorities
just outweigh
that.
Really good.
It's really
needed.
Yeah, might be
a great thing,
but it's just not
important enough.
We just can't
do everything, and
all you have
to do is
look at
the newspapers.
What are the
top issues for
for people

(52:53):
affordability,
health care,
education,
personal rights
and freedoms.
You know,
that it
really
trickles off.
So you could have
a really, really
significant issue
tied to
good legislation
and really
good ideas
of how to do it.
And no
time to touch
it just
doesn't make
the top ten.

(53:13):
Yeah.
And and,
how do we change
that?
Our system
is very different
than the United
States system,
the United
States, 18 tons
of regulations
and legislation
in all of their
senates, and ours
is very
different process.
Anybody can
bring one forward
at any time,
and they have to
deal with
thousands
of bills.
You know,
with them it's

(53:34):
just this ones.
Yes. No. We've.
God. Yeah.
You get a
fair shake
because
they're just
different volume,
problems.
Different.
We don't have
the volume
issue, but
only a select
few are
going to hear
how much you can
actually get
churned through.
Yeah.
So
yeah,
I would think
it's interesting
hearing kind

(53:54):
of that
perspective.
It's like
influence becomes
a lot
more important
than it is like
a leadership
is is influence
in a matter
of speaking?
But there's
when I go
private sector,
I'm
somebody's boss
and I'm
leading them.
I have
some intrinsic
influence
with them.
I sign their paycheck
and they've
they've signed on
to me

(54:14):
as their leader
when they work
for my business
or whatever.
And so
we've kind of got
a bit of
a contract
going here,
whereas
they're going to
listen and
and beyond
culture.
And I can control
and assign
all those things.
But then when
you're get
put into
a legislature
that's got however
many employees
and people
involved
and different
voices
speaking in
and out
and opposition,
and there's a
lot more about,

(54:37):
not being
in control
but being
influential.
That's
I tell people
all the time, it's
like that
point of is, yeah,
and in business
you have
more power
and authority,
right.
That responsible
rests with you in,
in the government.
Right.
You don't have
that power
over our ministry
there.
You could correct

(54:57):
a little bit more
in those
positions.
But governance
is really
about influence.
It really is.
Jerry
let's, let's talk
about this.
Let's talk
about
minimum wage.
How would that
impact
your business.
How does it impact
you personally
if you go to
a restaurant
that has
more minimum wage
earners then
what rate
should it be.

(55:17):
How should be
implemented?
Yeah.
And at
what increment
should it be
reviewed.
There's
I can't yeah.
It's not
my ministry.
It's not my final
it's under
certain path
under labor
dot ministers
in charge
direction
every year
and once
for the top
4 or 5 issues
in Canada.
That's not one

(55:37):
of them.
Important really
needs to be
looked at.
How
do we influence
those people.
So yeah.
And I have
my opinion
and so does
the person
working at
McDonald's
who's getting paid
minimum wage.
And there's
lots of them
who have opinions.
And each one
matters, right.
What matters
and be
whether it's
a grocery store
or, a factory line

(55:58):
worker or employer
have implications.
And it's not
just on
it has
implications
on inflation.
And like,
there's there's
so much
broader scope
of what
these things
affect that
most people
don't
really think that
that depth.
So they're
not going,
oh, if we
raise minimum
wage, it's
going to
add inflation
to our cost of
groceries,
or if we add more,

(56:19):
carbon tax
to our fuel,
it's going
to inflate
the cost of every,
thing
that gets shipped
ever.
Right.
Like,
and there's just
all these
other factors
that don't
when they're
passing
that legislation.
Often
we're not
bringing this
to the forefront
of the
conversation
because
people
don't even
like they
don't get it.
They don't want
to talk about it.
They don't
understand it
or those

(56:39):
we have
had this
conversation.
But just in
a different place
from a lot of
my life
is now public
and my
my discourse
is being public.
But,
in the process
of legislation,
there's committees
that can be done
under confidence.
There's caucuses
that talk
about these things
in confidence.
I actually

(57:00):
unbecoming
a minister.
Take an oath.
The premier of
the province
have a Bible.
At these
times and places,
I cannot share
or break
the confidence
of cabinet,
conversations
with the
general public.
Yeah.
So those
those are oaths

(57:21):
that we take
before the law
under a
judicial system
to protect
the integrity
of government.
People get that
when they.
You need to
tell them.
You need
to be transparent.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not quite how
it works,
but I think
underneath
the law.
And if
unless I
disrespect
that law,

(57:41):
I am legally
obligated
not to say,
yeah,
at this point
in time.
And, and
people understand
that like
we keep an oath.
An oath.
And we swore
an oath
to protect
that confidence.
So those are
very important
nuanced

(58:02):
conversations
take place
in a trusted
secure way.
So then as
we work through
and then make
a decision,
it also gets
implemented in
a transparent,
fair way
at the right time.
Yeah.
And and at all
because it needs
to get done
at some point too.
Like that.
All of the
distractions
and the questions
that they have
to be quieted
at some point
so we can move.

(58:22):
Yeah.
One of
the big reasons
I want to
have you in here,
Nathan, is
just because
I know, you know,
if you want
to test someone
in leadership,
make them go
lead people who
are volunteers
or go lead people
who haven't
necessarily voted
for you,
which is a
good example
here,
have influence
on people
that didn't agree
to work with
you necessarily

(58:42):
in the
first place.
That's always
way harder.
It takes away
deeper
and stronger
level of
leadership and,
and people
who are
in government
or governance
are held
to a higher
standard.
Even from again,
there's a
biblical
perspective
and there's
just a general
perspective.
As humans,
you know
how people
hold you
to a standard
and they put you
in the spotlight
all the time.
And that takes

(59:03):
a lot of,
of strength.
It takes a
wide shoulders
and a strong
stance and,
confidence
in yourself to
lead and to do
well and to,
control that risk,
like
responsibility
with a
servant leadership
perspective.
And so,
I think
a lot of people
can gain from
that understanding
is that the people
who have,
who've gone

(59:24):
into politics
and for the right
reasons, ideally,
are doing
a great service
to the country.
That is a
very hard and,
not an easy one
to stand up to.
It takes
a lot of those,
the pressures
that they see now
are massively
larger
than when I
was working
at that
small business.
So.
And those
are heavier on me
than raising

(59:45):
a family,
and those
are heavy on me.
When I was reading
just prior
to work, my wife
and those are
infinitely harder
than when I was
just on my own.
So there's
a growth rate.
Just
go to the gym.
You don't
go to gym
for the
first time ever.
And that stress
a stack.
You gotta work
your way up to it.
And
the learning
curve in public

(01:00:06):
sector is
very rapid.
Because
so many more eyes
watching.
No room for error
and less room
for error.
You make a
big mistake
you don't
get elected.
And those are
those words okay.
In one sense.
But but
growing into it
and I had
the fortunate

(01:00:27):
it was difficult
at the time.
But I hit
pretty much
everyone
in the ladder.
I was a private
member in the back
benches.
I served on
a ton
of committees.
I was on
task forces
and I became
caucus chair,
and I did
these things,
and then I did.
Then I became
a cabinet minister
on a file
that I knew
very well
from my
construction
background
and
infrastructure.
And then I became,

(01:00:49):
cabinet. Mr.
Chair and
vice chair,
Treasury Board.
After a period
of time
learning
about electricity,
which I knew
nothing about,
and the finances
like my personal
finances,
my business
finances,
we're talking
hundreds
of dollars,
$2,000,
hundreds
and thousands
of dollars.
Now on
Treasury bills.
We're talking
about budgets
of 72 billion.

(01:01:11):
Okay.
We're talking
big, big numbers.
Yeah.
And billing
gets thrown
around a lot
nowadays.
That's, that's
not what
most people think
it is.
When you look at
how much a billion
in just 1 billion.
That's a,
that's a lot.
That's more
than you
could make
in a lifetime
in most cases
if
incomprehensible.
It is.
It's such a
big number.
We don't get it.
And we
hear billion
and trillion

(01:01:31):
and that's it.
It's a lot.
I'm not to view.
Sadly.
You have to learn
not to abuse
that by
by snowballing
somebody
with all these
big numbers,
terms
and acronyms to,
to try to learn it
well enough
that we can
barely
represent it.
And,
and a
few times it's
hard to get there

(01:01:52):
but say
some more on
whatever,
whatever the file
that you think
should be spent
more on.
Okay.
Where do we take
that from?
We raise taxes.
Yeah.
This is real money
that's come
from real people.
People.
So
we can spend
a billion more
on whatever
your important

(01:02:13):
issue is.
Where's that
billion
coming from?
There's
5 million,
just under
5 million
Albertans.
And you
think about
how many dollars
that is in taxes
per each one.
Yeah.
Or do we take it
from another
vital file
to, to fund
that or
take a portion
from that.
But it doesn't

(01:02:33):
matter
that a
10% reduction
in any file means
someone's
probably going
to get a job
reduction
or a wage
reduction
or is it not
easy decisions.
Yeah,
that's what
I mean,
to respect
the public
by being fair
with them,
by being honest.
And I'm saying
this one
decimal point
who's here
is that 100,000

(01:02:54):
people are gonna
be impacted here.
So what's
their perspective?
Is that right
or wrong?
Is it. Why.
Yeah.
In the short term
or long term,
suddenly.
And yet
not being scared
to do
what you need
to do either.
Because
I think that
for me,
like I said, in
a non,
kind of group
meeting with

(01:03:14):
finance minister
early on
and then
talking through
some of
the budget
decisions
they'd made,
and I'm
sitting back
thinking, okay,
I, I'm
a entrepreneur
that actually
does deal
with millions
of dollars
on a regular basis
and understands
kind of what
that looks like
and how to
manage it.
And I've grown
into that.
And I'm listening
to these numbers
and these ideas
being thrown
around.
I'm going, man,
this is
overwhelming.

(01:03:34):
I can't
even imagine
having being
responsible,
accountable
and in control
of some of
these things,
but still not
being frozen.
Because
I got to move,
I got to move.
I got to do
things.
There's things
that
have to happen
and you have
to be done.
And and
we're
moving ahead.
This train's
rolling right,
and we can't
freeze up.
You got to do
what has
to be done,
and yet
know all of those

(01:03:55):
other things
that you're
talking about
in the background
and honor them
at the same time.
No training school
for anybody?
No. Okay.
It's like
leadership school
is exactly.
Yeah.
So what do we
what do you bring
to the table? Yes.
You can go to
the university now
and take
great courses
in political
science
and understand
theory
and how to
write legislation,
how to read it

(01:04:15):
and how to know
the process
and the
different
ideologies,
the different
political parties
espouse.
Do all of those
kind of things
great, fine.
But you know what
the best
leadership is?
Just
if you do did.
So if I can
write legislation
about construction
because I can
live that life
if I want
to write
legislation
about electricity,

(01:04:36):
it's because I
immersed myself
to understand
the people on
the ground.
You're
doing these jobs.
Why did you build
that transmission
line?
You have to jump
to do that.
Who's paying
for it?
Yeah.
Why does it
cost as much
in the
implications of
to that?
So opportunities

(01:04:56):
why do you
want to generate
power by wind
and solar
for less
than issues.
What are the
challenges.
What are the pros
when it comes?
What did that do
to people's
transmission
bills.
Because
we built it
in different way
than we built
juju generation
for coal,
which is now over
converting to
natural gas.
What does it mean
to consider
nuclear power

(01:05:18):
and the
power generation
for Alberta,
where
we don't have
any mining
for uranium now,
but between
Saskatchewan,
which is
very strong?
There are some
deposits
in Alberta
that potentially,
depending on
the decision
that you make,
could be realized.
That has
implications
for those areas.

(01:05:38):
Environmentally,
sensitive areas
or are they
an area where,
all things
considered,
it would be a net
benefit to,
to pursue
that mining
opportunity
and then,
okay, we've
got fuel.
And how do
you package
it inside it and,

(01:05:58):
naturally in
production so
that you can
utilize it
to generate
electricity.
What's that
all in cost?
That's a very,
very complex
thing, right?
There's
no end to
the learning.
You could spend
your whole
career on it
and not
still be
the most expert
in it.
And and use
came in
not knowing
it was not it,
because there's
no school
for that.

(01:06:19):
I was thinking
about that
from a
finance
perspective.
What exact
Lee would
the qualifications
be for someone
who had
any business
running
a $72
billion budget
for a province
of people
who don't
necessarily agree
with their
their
political views,
like it's a wildly
yeah, there's
no there's no way
that you can be
really prepared
for that
or have the

(01:06:39):
right
qualifications.
Yes. Okay.
I've dealt
with
lots of money,
but was it
your money?
You know, who was
who were you
accountable to
when you were
operating a bank
or whatever
these other
finance
things are,
and you might have
some experience
there.
But this is a
wholly different
thing,
totally different.
And you're chosen
to represent,
a region
of the province
for their issues,

(01:06:59):
not selected.
On what skill sets
should we have
for this?
And who would be
the best person
to run this,
like that?
Yeah, it's a
it's a popularity
vote essentially
before.
And then
they
give you a job,
you don't know
what kind
of minister
you're going
to be when
you get voted
in as Emily.
Yeah.
So I've
been fortunate
to all those roles
and to learn
those things.

(01:07:20):
But yeah.
Who was
the perfect person
that you're
thinking.
And it's like
my personal
preference is
is not necessarily
a party system.
The original
founders
of democracy
in the
United States.
So individual
representation
is really
important.
The they actually
warned against
the trend towards

(01:07:40):
party
system
because now
a lot of
people's choice
on who they choose
to represent
them is
actually less
to do
with that
individual.
Yeah,
more to do
with the party.
And the bigger
picture items.
Yeah.
The leader
who's going to
sort of
be steering
that party.
And that's hard.
Yeah it is.
Yeah I do.

(01:08:01):
Well
we all live the,
the challenges
and see the
dissension and
lack of unity
that it brings
to a country
to and, and again
each has their
pros and cons
but there's, it's
a really polarized
our society
in the
last decades.
Did Winston
Churchill
say about
democracy.
It's the worst
system out there
except for all

(01:08:21):
the other systems.
Yeah.
So we
we choose
imperfect people
to work in
an imperfect
system to
govern as
best they can.
That's where
individual
character,
individual
accountability,
transparency,
viewership,
others.
And all I can
try to do

(01:08:41):
is be the
best person
that I
have tried
to learn.
And I don't
make mistakes.
Guaranteed.
It's all right.
Savings wrong do
think wrong
voting wrong
collectively.
Yeah.
For so.
And that's
no different
than being
a business owner.
Right.
Like as
soon as you,
you are beholden
to a group

(01:09:02):
people are trying
to lead them.
Whether
you replace
their voted their
or you started
a business
and ended up
there,
you're still
leading people
and you're
still human
and you know
you're going
to have
to take risks.
You're
going to
make mistakes.
You're
going to
have to,
again,
ultimately learn
and grow
through the
process.
But at, you know,
get to stick
your neck out
and start somebody
somebody has
to take the lead.

(01:09:22):
And that's
I think
a lot of people
are scared
to take the lead
on anything now,
because there's
consequences.
When your
leadership,
the leader
should be really
the worst
job always
because you're
going to
be the one
with your head
stuck out when
when it's time
to get the neck
chopped right.
And and
if you're
doing it right,
you're
always serving.
You're
always leading
by example.
You're always

(01:09:42):
putting
the hardest thing
on yourself.
You're always
doing
those things.
And if
if you're
built to lead,
to do that job,
then then
you accept
that
responsibility
and you go
out and serve
because
that's what you
were made to do.
And I think
that those are
the people
who are listening
to this podcast
are the ones that
that believe
that they were
built to lead
and that
they're trying
to be
the best leader
they can,
and they know that
there's going
to be risks

(01:10:02):
and they're know
there's going
to be pain,
and there's going
to be sacrifice
and there's going
to be suffering.
But they're
willing to
accept that
because the
they know
that people
need someone
to follow
and they need,
to be moved ahead.
And if,
if not me,
then who exactly?
And it's not
selfish, actually,
it's not
servant
leadership.
It's us.
Actually lifts

(01:10:25):
all the
people that,
I mean, you know,
it's a very
rewarding thing.
Relationally,
first I would say,
and then
personal
character.
Second,
and then
financially,
hopefully
financially,
there is
there is a purpose
to it.

(01:10:45):
There's a nobility
to it at all for,
choosing to lead
and take up
your cross and
have to question.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The leader
that, yeah.
That we follow in.
Jesus.
He definitely,
didn't end up
with a bunch
of money
at the end
of the tunnel,
but he
he served and,
made an impact,

(01:11:07):
on my life
all this time
later.
So cool.
Nathan.
Well,
I've so
appreciated this
conversation
again.
We could go
hours and hours.
I think
getting into the.
I'd love to get
into the details
of all the things
you deal with
because it's
super interesting.
But,
you know,
it's a
leadership
podcast.
We're trying
to deliver
that value
to people.
And,
and your story is,
enlightening and,

(01:11:27):
and uplifting
for people
that,
have stuck
their neck out
and are trying
to do well
and serve
their community,
whether it be
in business
or in politics.
And so thank you
for for
the service
that you do there.
And, it's
I love
having a guy
like you
out there,
serving us
as Albertans.
I feel that
your heart's
in the
right place,
and you're doing
the best
you can for us.
So.
Virgin

(01:11:48):
conception.
Yeah.
Thanks, David.
But.