Tough Conversations: A Leaders Guide to Dealing with Conflict

In this episode of the Built to Lead podcast, Jory and his co-host, Tyler, explore the intricacies of crucial conversations and conflict resolution in leadership. Jory shares personal anecdotes and emphasizes the importance of timely intervention, staying focused on issues, and building trust with team members. He highlights the need for leaders to be proactive, prepared, and empathetic, understanding others' perspectives to foster effective communication. The episode provides practical advice on maintaining a positive attitude, controlling the conversation's tone, and improving people skills to create a harmonious and productive work environment.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The thing
that almost
every
entrepreneur
business
leader hates
dealing
with conflict
and tough
topics.
That's your
responsibility.
You need to
step up to
when you
tolerate
something
or you don't
say something.
People take
that as
approval.
It's just
a natural
human
condition,
and these
things are
muscles
that you
can work
on improving
as a leader
that are
going to make
these
conversations
ways.
Yeah,
absolutely.

(00:21):
Welcome to
the Built
to Lead podcast
where Tyler
and I
slap our gums
and you
guys listen.
So,
it's funny
to think
about talking.
I just,
I joke about it
all the time,
but it's
just like,
I literally
just get up
in the morning
and start
talking,
and I talk
all day long,

(00:41):
and then
I get home
and I
stop talking.
And then
my wife wants
to talk,
and I'm
just like,
I have nothing
to say.
I had my
my kids
and wife
think I'm
a quiet person.
I think,
yeah, well,
and then
I'm sure
this happens
to you
all the time.
Your wife gets
surprised by
you guys are
doing what,
at work now?
Oh, yeah.
So you
she hears it
from other
people
in our
organization
and she's

(01:01):
friends with.
And she's like,
oh yeah.
So so-and-so
told me,
yes, it's
sure nice
to hear
what our
company's
doing,
you know,
from my friends
and not
from you.
And yeah,
I'm sorry
to rehash stuff
all the time.
We gotta
go through it.
You know
how do you
just get tired
to talking
sometimes?
Like I
literally
just talk
eight, ten,
12 hours
a day
sometimes.
Yeah.
Which is

(01:21):
hilarious.
It's like,
who knew
when you
started going
into business
that,
you know,
when this thing
really gets
going,
I'm just going
to talk
all day.
That's not
going to do
for a living.
Yeah, right.
And here we are
recording
a podcast.
More talking,
more talking
or talking
anyways. Yeah.
Today for you,
we've got a
really good,
topic.
I think
this is a
really super
key one.
I've been
thinking
about it a lot,

(01:41):
and it is
something that
I've gotten
quite good
at over
the years,
but it took
a lot
of effort,
to get good
at this stuff.
And it's
the thing
that almost
every
entrepreneur,
business
leader, hates
and struggles
with and gets
frustrated
around.
It's the thing
that makes
people quit
a lot of
the time.
Right?
So that
topic is
crucial
conversations

(02:02):
dealing
with conflict
and tough
topics. Yeah.
I'm gonna
I'm gonna
walk out
because
I don't.
I'm feeling
a little bit.
You're feeling
anxious.
There's
something
about this.
So I gotta
sit down, okay?
Yeah.
No, it's it's
really, It's
something
that's tough.
It is
really tough.
And in the
early days,
I think
about it often,
when
we would have
a tough
conversation
or when

(02:22):
I would have to
fire someone,
or if I'd
have to have
a performance
improvement
conversation,
or other people
would come in
with issues
and want to
sit down
and talk
about it.
And I would get
just rattled,
like I'm shaky,
I'm sweating
my palms
or are are wet,
you know,
and you're
just like,
you just don't
even know,
like you're
just totally
rattled.
And then over
the years,
as you
have more

(02:42):
and more
and screw
many of them up
and learn
from your
mistakes
and all those
types
of things,
you get
better at it.
Like you can
start taking it
in stride.
You get calmer,
you get more
confident,
you become a
better
communicator,
and you learn
the things
you need
to learn
to be good
at having
these types
of
conversations.
So,
we're going
to get
into that.
I got a lot of
tactical
information
of how
you can

(03:02):
just physically
get better
at these
things.
And a lot of
just basic
thought
processes
that,
are just going
to help you
be a better
communicator
and be able
to deal
with these
crucial,
crucial
conversations
in a
confident way.
Sorry.
Yeah.
So we're going
to start
out with,
you know, how
you know
how we do
things, right?
And I think

(03:22):
that I guess
another
important topic
is this as
a leader,
you need to
understand that
when there
is conflict
in and around,
whether it be
your team,
your
organization
in sports,
any advice,
variety or area
where you're
going to
be a lead
position
or want to
take a lead,
dealing with
conflict
is your
responsibility,

(03:43):
right?
Other people,
the average
person
wants to
avoid conflict
at all
costs, right?
There's
a few people
that like
conflict,
but they're
like, yeah,
one, two,
3% of the
population,
right?
And they create
and bring up
conflict.
And
we all know who
they are.
And people
just kind of
dismiss them
in their crazy
antics.
But, you know,
most people
are going to
avoid conflict.
So I'm
going to say

(04:03):
especially
in Canada,
people are
cowboy
conflict,
right?
Absolutely.
And
and because
of that,
there has to be
someone
who's willing
and able
to open up
conversations
and and deal
with it. Right.

If you're
sitting in
a leading
a meeting
or even sitting
in a meeting
and you can
sense that
there's tension
between
some people
or that there,
you know,

(04:23):
you see that
a couple
employees
within your
organization
tend to avoid
each other,
or they
stay out
of each
other's
situation,
or you see
or hear
from other
people
that someone's
not
getting along.
That's your
responsibility.
You need
to step up
and get
those things
resolved,
because
those things
bubbling
underneath
the surface,
they're doing
a lot
of damage.
Right.
And your
credibility
as the leader
of the

(04:43):
organization
and
your culture,
which is also
your
responsibility,
depends on you
mining for
that conflict.
And
pulling it out
and
resolving it
and bringing
resolution
and forgiveness
and,
and calmness
to these
situations.
Right. Yeah.
Well, you're
bringing up
a good point.
You you're
talking about
actually
being aware
and being
in the mix
as a leader

(05:03):
and that
you're actually
putting effort
into paying
attention
to the people
around you.
Yeah.
Taking
taking
responsibility
for it
requires
proximity
and a lot
of scenarios.
Right.
And even
I find like,
as it's
gotten harder
and harder
for me
to always be
present
in everything,
there are
certain people
within the
organization
that aren't
necessarily
dealing with
the conflict,
but that will
bring things
to my attention

(05:24):
so that I can
resolve them.
Right.
But proximity
is huge.
Like,
you have to
be around
and you have
to know
your people
and understand
them, right?
If you don't
know
your people
and you
don't know
what's going
on, you're not
going to
be able
to relate
and understand
and resolve
the issues
that you need
to deal with.
Right.
So how do we do
this?
I think
a huge thing,
one of the
biggest
mistakes
that we make,

(05:45):
with
conflict
is time,
how we
deal with it
in a time
constraint,
how timely
we deal with it
because there's
too early
and there's
too late.
Right?
So if we,
for example,
get into a,
a scenario,
someone comes
and tells us,
their side
of the story
and it's a very
upsetting
thing,
and we get
upset or angry
because, say
it's out
of our values
or just
it's irritating
to us, right?

(06:05):
Yeah.
Well, well,
if we go
in there,
in our emotion
or
in the moment
and we start
dealing
with it,
that's
too early.
You know,
and unless
we're calm
and ready and,
and prepared
and thought
through to go
into a
conflict, it's
probably not
the best time
to deal
with it.
If
the other person
is still in
an emotional,
heightened
state,
that's probably
not the
best time

(06:25):
to deal with
it, right?
So that's
too early.
But
what typically
happens is
the issue
is right
now or it's
come to
our attention
right now,
either
we're still
emotional
or they're
still emotional
about
the situation.
And then
we put it off
we go, okay,
we're going
to let that
cold out.
Then in
the period
of where
you should be
dealing
with it,
you ignore it
or you
let it lapse
or
you get something
else,

(06:45):
and then
it starts
getting old.
And every
person
who's led
anything or
ever had
a business
or whatever
knows what
this is about,
right?
There's
something
that's
happened.
We
procrastinated.
And now or we
I really should
have.
I need to
deal with that.
I should have
dealt with it
or whatever.
But now it's
too old.
And so
often we
let it go

(07:06):
and and
or we
deal with it
too late
and it's
awkward.
The facts
are murky.
You know,
people are past
the issue,
are over it,
and now
it's not
relevant
to the
current
situation
anymore.
You know,
people go out
each
in history.
I don't
even remember
what you're
talking about,
or these
types of things
would make it
really awkward
and challenging
to deal
with these
conflicts

(07:26):
with people.
When you wait
too long.
Yeah.
So timeliness
is huge.
There is a
right time
to deal
with conflict.
And it's
it's a
very soon
after it
happens.
But not
I mean,
not always
immediately.
And there's
if you're
a strong leader
and a
strong conflict
resolution
person,
you can deal
with stuff
immediately,
like right now.
Yeah, right.
But
that might mean
you might
have to clamp
someone

(07:46):
down first
and then deal
with it.
But, you
know, as
you become
expert
level conflict
negotiator,
you can deal
do it
more quickly.
But
the reality is,
as you're
learning
how to do this,
there is a
right time.
Yeah,
to deal
with conflict.
Because
I think what
what you said
earlier
is that people
don't want
to do this.
Yeah. Avoid it.
They're going
to avoid it.
And the problem
is, is if you

(08:08):
cut it
off there
were too
emotional.
Let's deal
with it later.
It gets dealt
with later.
But then
you're like
you're
thinking about
oh I don't
really want
to do it.
So I'm going
to push it off
a little
bit more.
And then
every time
you push it off
a little bit
more it
gets bigger
and bigger
and bigger.
And then it's
so big
you're like,
I don't think
I want to
deal with it.
Not, well,
yeah, it's
so

(08:28):
repetitious
issue
that's going
to happen
over and over
and over again.
The other thing
about not
dealing it
is silence
conveys
conveys
approval,
silence
or tolerance.
So when you
tolerate
something
or you don't
say something,
people take
that as
approval.
It's just
a natural
human
condition.
So if someone's
doing something
that you don't
like them
in a
performance
manner. Yeah.
And
they're aware
that you're
aware
of what
they've done

(08:49):
and then you
say nothing
or you tolerate
the yeah,
that means
good.
Keep doing
that. Yeah.
You might
as well
just
patted them
on the back.
Yeah. Right.
So that's
not be a
big deal. Yeah.
Because
because you're
the leader.
Yeah.
You're
the one that
tells them
what's a win
or what's
a loss.
What's good
and what's not.
You're expected
to correct
and to appoint
and approve.
And when you
say nothing
that means
you approve.

(09:10):
And you have to
as a leader
like
you can say
oh I don't
agree with it.
That's
the facts.
If you don't
do that
you are
not
communicating
and leading
right.
You have to
understand that
because a
lot of it
I can't
I can't say
this enough.
So many leaders
assume
that other
people
are judging
and correcting
themselves,
but in reality
they're looking
over at you
and going,

(09:30):
good,
okay, I'm good.
And they're
moving ahead
into.
And so when
things go long,
especially like
a long,
long time,
without
being
corrected,
it conveys
approval
and a
funny story
about this
in my early
days.
It's not
totally
on topic,
but it's it's
a good example
of waiting
too long.
So I had
we had
one of our
main customers

(09:51):
when I first
started
in our business,
and she was
the owner's
daughter
of a big
customer
of ours
that I
dealt with.
And so we'd
holiday
through them
and I'd
book loads,
and we
talked back
and forth.
But the very
first few days
that I start
dealing with
her, she
thought my
name was Joey.
And so
I did not
correct her
because I was
not confident
enough to
deal with that.

(10:11):
And so
after a month
or two of her
calling me
Joey,
I realized,
I don't know,
I can't
reel this
back now.
Like it's
going to be
super awkward
if I tell her
now
that my name is
not what
she thinks,
or literally
like she's
typing this
on contracts,
she's
putting it on
channel, so
I can't

(10:31):
remember how
long it been.
I actually
think it was,
like multiple
years
that this went
on for years.
And then
one day
when I was
on holidays
and someone
was covering
for me,
they
corrected her,
while
I was away,
I was like,
Joe, who's
Joey?
What do
you mean?
It's.
Well,
it's Jori.

(10:52):
And then she.
Now she's
embarrassed.
Yeah,
because
she's
been saying
this so long
and she
thinks I'm
a flippin
idiot, right?
Because I am.
Yeah, right.
So this is
just an example
of how
awkward things
get when you
leave them off.
I just said
the first,
you know, 2
or 3 times.
Yeah.
Hey, it's
actually
jewelry.
Yeah.
Jail or y it.
Yeah. Oh, okay.
No, it's
not awkward.

(11:13):
Yeah.
It's not even
a conflict.
Yeah, exactly.
But now
we're
in the conflict
because
I've allowed
this and
it just did
it takes away
my credibility.
Is that why
we have a Joey
working for
us now?
Yeah,
I had to hire
one to cover
for me.
Yeah,
exact one.
Though.
We do have
a Joey. Yeah.
That's who
you been
dealing with?
We are voices
the same. Yeah.
Anyways,

(11:33):
it's just a
funny example.
Yeah.
That's
how things
get more
and more
and more
awkward
as time goes
on, right?
When
we don't deal
with conflict,
we need to get
get on it.
And it really
matter.
And next
thing
is staying
on topic.
So when we
get into
a conflict
conversation
one, it's
finding what
the root of
the problem is.
So if
someone brings
conflict to
you, right.
Because there's
there's the
two types,
either
you're

(11:53):
bringing,
a problem
or tough topic
or a conflict
to someone
else's
attention,
or they're
going to
bring it
to you. Right.
So
there are
two very
different
footings
that you're on
in that
scenario.
Either way,
we need
to get
to the root
of the problem.
Right.
Or if
we've decided
what
the root of
the problem is
before we go
into the
conversation,
we need to
stay on that.
Because what
you're going
to find

(12:13):
when you're
dealing
with people
or you're
getting in
conflict
is we're
going to have
yeah, that's
obvious.
Deflecting
topic changes
of
victimization.
All kinds of
these things
are going
to pop up
everywhere.
Right.
Right here.
We're going
to start
putting up
walls.
You're
going to start
making excuses.
We're going to
protect
ourselves
and all these
types
of things.
And so we need
to be very,
very clear on
what we're
trying
to resolve
in this

(12:33):
conversation,
because you'll
go into this
really hard
conversation.
And then five
new issues
are going
to pop up
or mud
is going to
get slung.
Are we going
to blame
someone else
or whatever,
which may be
real issues.
In most cases
they are,
you know.
Well,
so-and-so,

was
screaming at me
and this is why
I made
this mistake.
Oh,
interesting.
Well,
I just
found a new
nice conflict

(12:54):
that I'm going
to have to go
and deal with,
but I'm
not dealing
with that now.
So we need to
stay on topic,
and then
we need
to bookmark
other topics
and we need
to communicate
with our person
that way.
Yeah. Great.
So Carl
was screaming
at me
and that's why
I dropped
the ball.
And I
backed into
the thing.
It's like,
okay,
cool.
I understand
that
you're
still
responsible.
At the
end of the day,

(13:14):
I don't
like whatever
Carl was doing.
We're going
to put
a bookmark
in that
because I
will be dealing
with that,
but we're going
to stay on
you backing
into this
thing, right?
Yeah. Okay.
So this is
really
important
as the leader
of the
conversations,
you need to
control
the topic
and we need to
stay on topic.
There are
situations
and moments
where you do
have to pivot
and deal
with other
things
that are
extremely
important in
that moment.

(13:35):
But at the end
of the day,
if we're
going to start
a conversation
of this nature,
we need to be
clear
and concise
and on topics
through
the course
of that
conversation.
Right?
Because
if you've
been in
any kind of
these
conversations,
you realize
that we're
we're going
to try
and steer
this ship
any other
direction
and the place
that we want.
Yeah, right.
Well, that's
how they
format,
debates
as well.

(13:55):
Yeah.
The format
it's like,
here's
the question.
Deal with
the question.
Don't bring up
another one.
Yeah.
You're
just moving
the goalposts
or,
you know, straw
matting it
or something
like that.
Jason's
a perfect
example. Yeah.
You ask
them
a question,
they don't
answer
the question
at the end
of the debate
and no one's
answered
anything.
Exactly.
And then
we've all
wasted
our time,
right? Yeah.
Much like
leading
a meeting
where
we're trying to

(14:15):
resolve issues
within the
organization
that aren't
directed
at a person,
we need to
lead
the meeting
and keep it
on topic,
and then
have action
items
or clarity
at the end of
our
conversation
about what
we've discussed
and what
resolution
we're bringing
to it. Yeah.
So staying on
topic,
digging,
digging
down to
the root
of the problem,
I mean, that

(14:35):
that in itself
is quite
a talent
because there's
a lot of,
garbage
that you
got to sift
through
to actually
get to
the root.
Yeah, one
the root is
that,
I'm not
going to say
most of
the time,
but a high
percentage of
the time.
The root of
the problem
is rooted
in a personal
issue.
The majority

(14:55):
of work
conflicts
aren't because
of work things.
They're
because of
personal
things. Right.
So someone's
got a sick kid
at home,
someone's
fighting with
their wife,
someone's has
relational
issues,
someone's in a
financial
situation.
There's
all these
other problems
that are
the deeper
issue,
and that
can even be
a distraction,
even if it is
the root.
We can deal

(15:16):
with that.
But
we still have
to go.
You know,
if I'm saying
your
performance
at work
must be this
or else
this is going
to be
the consequence
of that.
And that's
the kind of
performance
improvement
conversation
we're having.
Well,
you can give me
all of
the reasons
and I
can understand
the roots
of the problem.
You still need
to be clear
on the topic of
this is
what must
happen.

(15:36):
Yes, to improve
and to
get better.
And then you
can
support them
in all
the other
things
which are the branches.
But
we can't lose
focus on
the main topic.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Right.
It's a
huge piece
of this. Right.
Because it's
it's things
people
do wrong.
They go in
as a leader.
I go in
wanting
to resolve
the bad
performance
or running
to resolve
a bad attitude
or wanting
to resolve
a poor
communication
structure.

(15:56):
And then
we walk out
at the end of a
40 minute
meeting
or an hour
long meeting
and going,
I actually
don't
think that's
going to
be better
after that
conversation.
I don't think
they understood
what I needed
out of them.
Yeah,
at the end of that,
because we
ended up
talking about
their mom
being sick
and their dog
having to go
to the vet and,
and and.
Yeah, right.
The topic
needs to stay
the topic.
Yeah. Right.

(16:17):

The next thing
is, and I'm
stealing
this
unabashedly
from John
Maxwell
because he says
it often.
And I
think it's
a very
powerful thing
is, is that
every person
is internally
at every
follower,
every person
you come in
contact with
is going to
make three
judgments
or ask
three questions
right away
with you
as a person,
as a leader,
as a
as just
an
acquaintance.
And those three
questions are

(16:38):
do you
care about me?
Can you help me
and can I
trust you?
Yeah, right.
These are the
immediate,
impressionable
things
that we're
we're making
questioning
about a person
as we're
kind of
sizing them up.
Right.
And so if,
if we
first of all,
we need to
make sure
those questions
are clearly
answered,
by our
relationship

(16:58):
to that person.
If we have
a good
relationship
and a
good culture
and we've
gotten to know
the person
and we're
invested
in them
and they know
the answers
to those
questions,
these conflicts
are going
to be resolved
a lot easier.
You're going
to be able
to speak
and see
correction
in another
person
very well.
Or if
they're
bringing
a conflict
to you
and they know
that you care
about them,
that you can
help them
and that you
you can
be trusted,

(17:18):
then they're
going to feel
a lot better
once they
talk to you
about it.
Right?
But if they if
any of those
questions
is no,
we're not
going to
get very far in
any kind of
a conflict
resolution,
right?
If you have
ulterior
motives,
if they know
that you don't
actually care
about them
at all.
And if you
don't have
the power
to help them or
you're not
going to make
a difference,
then
what do we even

(17:39):
doing here?
Yeah, right.
So every
person resist
those questions
are answered
some way
or another,
which means
that we need to
build rapport
and we need to
have
relationship
and trust
with our homes
or our people
that we're
leading
or our
teammates
or whatever
it be. Right.
So we got to
like when
we're going
to go
into a conflict,
we need to
think about
where we stand
with that

(17:59):
person on
those
questions.
And
if we have
any questions
there
that are
unanswered,
we need to
start answering
those questions
in the
conversation
that we're
dealing with.
This conflict.
Prepared.
We need to
be prepared.
You know,
you don't
always have
the opportunity
to be prepared
for a conflict
if you're
very good
at reading
people

(18:19):
and reading
situations,
you're
going to know
things are
coming,
hopefully
before
they come
and be prepared
anyways,
because
you're wise.

But in a lot of
cases, we know
hard
conversations
are coming up.
If we're
doing a again,
a very common
one is
performance
improvement
plan.
So, you know,
someone's got
an issue.
We've maybe
had a few
comments made
and of course

(18:40):
of the
working
environment,
hey,
you really
shouldn't
do that.
Or hey,
can you please
do it this way
or
you got to be
on time.
What these
type of
comments.
And now we're
going to
go into
a more
serious
conversation
about it.
We need to
prepare
ourselves
for the
conversation,
especially when
we're new,
to these
types of things
or they
really rootless
or we
we like

(19:00):
our fighters.
Flight starts
kicking in
when we're
going into
these
conversations,
and the more
prepared
we are,
the more calm,
the more
confident,
and the
more able
we are going
to be to
to get
good outcomes
with these
conversations.
So
what is being
prepared
look like?
It looks like
sitting down,
taking
a few minutes
to visualize
the
conversation,
to kind of
play it out
in our mind
so that we can

(19:21):
be prepared
for anything
that might
come.
A big part
of preparing
is
understanding
the other
person's
perspective
very clearly.
So taking
a moment
to put herself
in their shoes,
to understand
their
challenges
and their
problems,
understand
their concerns
or our,
where
they might
be reserved
or pushed back,
anticipate
any emotions
that
might happen.
Do you expect

(19:41):
that they're
going to come
into
your office,
or are you
going to
bring up
the topic
and they're
going to burst
into tears?
It's happened
to me
many times,
and I
wasn't
surprised
because I
somewhat
expected it.
Right.
Or
I expect
that they're
going to
bring up
the fact
that they've
just gone
through
a divorce
and they're
dealing
with all this
other stuff.
Okay.
I do
expect that
that's going
to come up.
How many to
deal with that
when it does
come up,
you know,
walking

(20:01):
through that
and it doesn't
take that long
to to walk
through it
in your mind.
But if you do
take just
a few minutes
to sit down
and really work
through all
those things,
you can,
you can be
prepared
to deal
with those
things.
You can
keep yourself
from getting
riled up
or emotional,
and you can
keep yourself
from
getting off
topic. Right.
So spending
time
visualizing
the
conversation
and
and getting

(20:21):
a clear
understanding
of the
other person's
perspective
is huge
for, for doing
really good
at these
conversations.
If you just
do that
you'll be
calmer
and you'll
have better
control of
the
conversation
and
you'll have way
better outcomes
just by
visualizing
and preparing
yourself
for the
conversation.
Okay,
last thing on
how we do
things is,
you have to

(20:41):
believe
that
these
conversations
have purpose
and that
they have
can have
positive
outcomes.
A lot of people
just have this,
when,
when they're
avoiding
conflict
or when
they hear the
word conflict,
or they think
of having
a one on
one
conversation
with someone
the instant
assumption is
that it's
going to
be negative.
It's going
to be negative.
They're going
to freak out.
They're going
to be upset.

(21:02):
They're going
to resent me.
They're going
to do this.
They're going
to that.
But that's
really not true
from a
statistical
standpoint
or a real
standpoint.
Right.
We are one.
You know, in
most cases,
we are
in control of
a conversation
when we're
going into one
or when
someone does
bring it to us.
If we're
a leader,
we are still
in control
of
conversation.

(21:22):
If we're a
good
conversationalist,
if we're
confident,
if we're strong
and we're
prepared,
we we
control the
conversation,
right?
And by
controlling
the
conversation,
we can control
the attitude
of the
conversation,
the vibrations
of the
conversation,
the emotions
of the
conversation,
all these
types of things
we control
and we
control it
by holding

(21:42):
ourself in
the right spot.
Right.
We
we are not
swayed by
the emotions
of
another person.
We don't get
riled up.
We don't change
your tune.
If we keep
our voice calm
and we're
confident
in our goals
and
our outcomes,
we control
the tone
and the pace
in the
in the
situation
that's
happening in
that room.
And when we go
in believing
that and
prepared
for it.

(22:02):
If we go
in believing
in a positive
outcome,
I would,
I would go in
to say
that you're
going to be 75,
80% chance
that you
come out
with a positive
outcome.
If you go in
with a
negative
outcome,
you're probably
an equal
amount
of chance
to come out
with a
negative
outcome.
You actually
manifest into a
hard
conversation
the attitude
you come in
with.
Yeah, people.
People,

(22:23):
instinctively
read someone
else's.
Yeah,
demeanor,
energy,
however
you want to.
And and
they'll
reflect it.
Yes.
That's
what people
tend to do
most of
the time.
They'll just
reflect it.
So if
you come in
and so
just naturally
not on purpose
or anything
else,
if you come in
and you're
rattled
and you're
shaking
your thing
and you're
riled up
in your tense,
they're going
to be riled up
intense.
And yeah,
absolutely.

(22:44):
You come in
and you're
relaxed
and you chill.
Your voice is
good.
You're not
shaky.
Have a
little bit of
gentle chat
to go in there
or this is
a serious
conversation
and you're
serious
and you direct
and you're
calm.
They can also
be serious,
direct
and calm. Yeah.
So you need
to control
the vibe,
the vibe of
the
conversation
and go in
with a positive
attitude.

(23:04):
That you're
doing this
for a
good reason,
has a purpose,
and we're
going to
come out
with a
positive
outcome. Yeah.
Just those
that belief.
Well, we'll
add out
a huge
percentage
of positive
outcome to most
of your
conversation.
Yes.
And that
you don't
have to be
like super fast
in the
conversation
either. Yeah.
You know, like
some people try
and rush
things. Yeah.
And like
obviously

(23:24):
when we're
sitting
having to fire
somebody,
there is some
structure and
process to that
because
you know.
Well, yeah,
at the end
this is not
dealing with
a conflict.
This isn't
dropping
a judgment.
Yeah.
And so that
that kind
of conversation
can be
different,
but it's
the same thing
with when
it comes
to the vibe
and the
positivity
of it.
If you come in

(23:44):
positive
and clear
and and
supportive of
the person
and they're
leaving,
you don't like,
you
don't need to
to come in
and make it
a bad
conversation.
You can make
even firing
someone
a positive
conversation.
I've had
really nasty
firings,
to which
I came in
with a
really rattled
and freaked out
and tense.
And I've had
firings where

(24:04):
they were calm
and and
we laughed on
reasonably
good terms.
And this is
how it went.
And it's
still new
that I cared
about them,
that I could
help them
and that that
they could
trust me
even after
I let them.
Right.
Even
if they were
hurt,
even if
they were
disappointed,
even if it's
not what
they wanted.
Yeah, right.
You can
still convey
those things
and go
in believing
that this
is still going

(24:25):
to be
ultimately
a good thing.
Right.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So big deal.
How do others
do it.
And I would say
mostly here
I'm going
to focus on
how other
people do
it wrong.
Because you
know some
other
like these
things
are pretty
in my mind.
If you're an
experienced
entrepreneur,
an experienced
communicator,
a leader,
these
should be
somewhat,
whether

(24:45):
you can name
the reasons why
you do things
or not.
You should
somewhat
have this stuff
figured out.
But a lot
of people
just have it
a wrong
perspective on
how you go
about doing
these sorts
of things.
And,
and I
just going to
point out them
so you can
not stumble
over the
same problems
that they do.
Right? Yeah.
So, big one
is that they do

(25:05):
simply put
things off
too long,
which we
talked about
already.
You know,
holding
yourself
accountable
as a leader
to the
timeliness
of how you deal
with conflict
and not letting
multiple
conflicts
and things
build up.
That's a
big problem
when when
people are in
constant
conflict,
we have this,
cortisol
situation
that happens,
like just
the hormones
of the people
within
your
organization
are going

(25:25):
to run high
and beat
and ultimately
negative.
Having
underlying
conflicts,
allowing and
tolerating that
within
your
organization
is going to
massively
decrease
productivity,
massively
damaged
culture,
massively,
hurt retention,
all these types
of things.
Right.
So we need to
deal with
things quickly
and timely
and in
a positive
manner.

(25:47):
Next, Lee
letting
emotions
run high.
Right.
We're
letting people
have emotional
blow ups
within your
organization,
allowing
like high,
high intensity
conversations
to happen and,
and like just
letting
emotions
run high
instead
of facts
leading the way
is, is
a major thing
that people
do wrong,
you know, while
they're just
passionate.

(26:07):
Okay.
We don't
we don't
respect
each other
and let
our emotions
run high
and respond
out of emotion
when we're
responding out
of emotion.
That's
an unhealthy,
way of dealing
with
conversations
in general
and
especially conflicts.
So we need to
focus on facts
and stay calm
and not let
our emotions
drive
our
communication
with that
organization.

(26:27):
Getting
distracted and
off topic.
Same sort
of thing.
Getting caught
in the
branches,
not having
clear coming in
with a clear
purpose
and leaving
with clear,
clearly
discussed
and executed
outcomes
that we're
looking for.
You know,
letting things
just kind of
go all over
the place
or not
being direct.
When we bring
the
conversation
to the person,
like, we're
going to have
a conversation,
sit down

(26:47):
with them,
and then
we beat
around the bush
and kind of
ask them how
they think
things
are going.
And
and they think
they're fine,
and then
there's
some wrong.
And then
you lose
your resolve
and then don't
bring up
the problem.
And then
they leave
and they go,
oh, that was
weird.
Like, yeah,
get your topic
figured out.
Get to the root
of the problem.
Clearly explain
what outcomes
you're
looking for
and what your
what you're
not happy with.
Don't beat

(27:08):
around
the bush.
Yeah me direct
right in
the loving
and kind way.
You don't have
to be unkind
to be
direct, right?
Yeah.
Oh, no. Yeah.
But you know
and ignoring
things
is not caring
and loving
for your
people. No.
Right.
People go.
I don't want
to be mean.
I don't want
to upset them.
That is not
caring
and loving
for me.
You can try
and paint it
that way,
but it is
not the case,
right?
Dealing with
conflict and

(27:29):
and really
trying to
support people
and help
them grow
and change
for the better
is actually
caring
for them.
It's hard work,
but
is the right thing
to do.
Yeah, right.
It's the
right thing
for your people
and people
will
respect you
for it. Right?
Okay, okay.
Next point,
that I
think is
really good.
And this is,
an immature
leader thing
is that
if you don't
if you

(27:49):
avoid conflict,
you don't like
conflict.
You're
normal human.
What
happens
is often
you'll wait
until you
get hyped up
or pissed off
to deal
with, like,
oh, yeah,
and you're
trying to use
that energy
to actually
convince
yourself
to go deal
with something
that's a
problem, right?
Is
that's the
last straw?
Sometimes stomp
out
of my office,
and I'm
going to go
talk to them
now.
And I've had

(28:09):
leaders,
who operated
that way
in the past,
and it's just
super unstable
for the people
that work
under them,
because,
again, their
silence has
said
approval to
other people
or that there's
nothing wrong.
And then out
of nowhere,
they come in
raging mad
at them.
And even

(28:30):
if it's not
raging mad,
but it's
just basically
laced in anger,
you're,
you're
you're not
going to
communicate
well. Yeah.
Like
even if you
feel like
you need
the hype
to be able
to deal
with the
intensity
of the
conversation,
you're not
going to
be smart
on your feet.
You're not
going to
be able
to hear
the other
person.
You're not
going to act
in a caring way
like
none of that.
You can't do it
in a state
of anger.
Right?

(28:50):
Or being hyper,
intense.
Yeah, right.
It's not
the way
to do it.
And I've seen
intensity used
in a positive
manner,
in a corrective
way, and more
so to also
hype up
other
or create
intensity
in
other people.
But when we're
dealing with
real issues,
it's not
a place
for intensity.
Right, right.

And being
intolerant
of issues,
this
doesn't need

(29:10):
to be intense.
It needs to be
clear. Right?
So don't
use anger
hyper emotions
to help
like Jack
you up to deal
with instances.
It's not
a healthy way
to deal
with things.
So that's
something that
I see.
And I see that
in a lot of
different
businesses
because
people just,
you know,
they don't
deal with it.
They don't deal
that.
They don't want
to deal with
that,
don't
want to
deal with it.
And then boom,
they finally
they're okay,

(29:30):
that's enough
is enough.
And then
off you go.
And then
we have these
kind of
larger
than life
explosions from
from leaders
or owners
on people.
And and
it's upsetting.
It's the
same thing
when people
bring conflict
to you
where they've
gotten enough
and is enough,
and
they come in
hyped
and angry.
Okay.
Well,
we need
as the leader
to get them
calmed down
and thinking
straight
and
communicating

(29:51):
clearly
in order
to have
a good
conversation
with them.
Right? Yeah.
Allowing people
to try
and operate
out of anger
is not clear.
And people
who do it
frequently,
it's part of
the problem
with anger is,
is that often
people have
positive
outcomes
with the
angry response.
Right.
Because
other people
don't like
conflict.
So when
they get
hyped up
and
they get angry
and they attack
in that
scenario,
whether it be

(30:11):
super high
or even
mid-level
anger,
they'll often
get the outcome
they're
looking for.
Yeah,
because
everyone moves
out of the way
and they get
what they want,
right.
Which
incentivizes
them to
continue
this behavior.
Yes.
Over again.
Right.
And that's
even why
leaders
will continue
to do it
over and over
and over again,
because they
get the outcome
they want.
The person
is not scared
of them
and will
do what
they've said
because, well,

(30:31):
what
if they come
and be angry
to me again?
Well, it's
not it's
not creating
a healthy
relationship
and culture.
Yeah.
Even though
you did
get the
positive
outcome
you're
looking for,
it's a short
term win.
It is
because people
can live
their whole
lives off
of this.
Like if they
learned at
an early age
or an
early stage
that when they
get angry,
they get what
they want.
They will kick
the habit loop.
A loop of

(30:52):
their brain
will continue
to trigger
that anger,
and then
it becomes,
well, whenever
I get angry,
I get what I want.
And whether
they say
that out loud,
it's in
their
subconscious,
in their
subconscious
says,
this is the tool.
How I get what
I want to
get angry.
And then
we have these
explosive
Karens
that are
yelling
at everyone
all the time
because they've
had the outcome
they're
looking for
from this type
of response.
Yeah, right.

(31:12):
And so
we need to be
very wary of,
hey, when
I get angry
and I
and they say
what I
really think
that I get
the response
that I want
because it's
slowly eroding
all your
relationship
to your respect
and your
credibility
with your team.
It's not
nobody
has respect
for an angry,
unstable
leader. Yeah.
No, they
have fear.
We don't want
fear.
We want
respect.
Yeah. Right.

(31:33):
So and
we want a
healthy
environment
and not,
a disjointed
so second
environment.
And some
leaders like,
like this thing
where
everyone's
afraid of them
and
around them,
but they can't
figure out why,
they can't
build a strong,
enduring
and scaling
business.
And that's
because
people are
are
dropping out
from under them
all the time,
or they're only
following them
out of fear.

(31:53):
And so
they're not
then
they're not
good
engagement.
They're not
high
performance,
they're not
anything.
They're just
fearful
little
followers.
And that's it's
not the way
to build
anything
wonderful,
beautiful.
Epic. Huge.
Awesome.
It's not
awesome.
Yeah.
It's it's just
a house
of cards
essentially.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's,

(32:14):
it's it's
never a
good thing
when,
when you're
building
that kind
of empire.
Where it's
just fear based
where you
can't, you
just can't.
And, and
I've seen it in
a lot of
other
businesses
that I've
touched
is that, that
can we kind of
got to
this point
and we have
a lot of
fearful
employees
that work there
that are
subservient
and respectful
to their
leadership
out of fear.

(32:34):
But then
they hit a wall
because
the person
at the top
has to
do everything
and hold
everyone
accountable
because they're
not holding
themselves
accountable.
They're just
doing it
out of fear.
Yeah, right.
It's not the
way to do it.
Practical
advice for
implementation.
So there's
a lot of things
just about,
being good
about
and
understanding

(32:55):
people,
conversations,
conflict,
resolution,
all that
kind of thing.
That's, that's
really helpful
just to, to,
to add
to your
thinking in
your process.
So number one,
I think that
we always need
to understand
that
most people
just want
to be heard
and understood.
It is like an
innate need.
We all need
to be heard
and understood.

(33:15):
And so
when people
bring conflict
to you,
they don't
always need
you to do
something
about it.
Like,
can you
help me?
Is
one of the questions.
But in a lot of
scenarios
it is not the
main problem,
right?
The main
problem is,
is that
they're upset
about something
and they don't
feel like
anyone cares,
right?
Do you care
about me?
So we need

(33:36):
to answer that.
Do you
care about me?
And can I
trust you
and and can I,
can you
help me?
But oftentimes
do you care
is all
they're really
looking for.
When people
bring you
problems
that they know
full well
before they
come in
into your
your world
or into
complain,
that you're
not going
to fix or that
you can't fix
what you like.
There's
no outcome

(33:56):
there, right?
It can be
frustrating
and you don't
understand what
they want,
but
what they actually
just want
is for you
to hear them
and
understand them
right.
And so even
I would even
say up
to the range
of 80% of hard
and tough
conversations
are just
about hearing
someone out
and
understanding
that you care.
Absolutely
right.
And that
you and
that you know

(34:16):
them. Right.
It's like,
I know
that when
this happens
that irritates
this person,
and if it's
within my power
to stop that
from happening
to them,
that I would
actually try
to do that.
Right.
That's all
they want.
Yeah.
Or I hate
the way
that this
forklift driver
talks to us
and makes us
put our
our PPE
on when it's

(34:37):
38 degrees
outside and
and it's like,
yeah, man,
I don't
that is
one of
the crappier
things that
we can
do in this job.
And that sucks.
And I know
it's hard
and I
appreciate you
staying calm
and dealing
with it
and being
professional
in the
midst of that.
And that guy
is really
a piece of work
at that
one place
that we go in.
Yeah.
And yeah,
I get it.
I have had
a dozen
other
complaints

(34:57):
about him.
I will see
if I can
do something
about it,
knowing full
well that,
you know,
even if I
talk to them
that
they're not
to do anything
about it.
You and I
kind of both
know that
that's just
the way
that guy is.
And it's
probably best
to try
and kill them
with kindness.
And, you know,
just we
we just have
a conversation.
We go,
I understand.
Yeah.
That sucks.
You know,
obviously it's
not your
preference

(35:17):
to go there
and deal
with that.
And so
I hear you out
and
if that makes sense,
then we may
or may not
send you there.
But I get it.
I do,
and I
appreciate you
dealing
with that
hard time.
Okay.
80% of
conversations.
Hey,
I really hate it
that whenever
all day long
I do
all the work
to book
these loads

(35:37):
and then
they cancel
and then I have
to go back
and rebook
them,
and it just
feels so
useless
and
frustrating.
Just like,
yeah, and
that's the
business.
Yeah.
And I've
been there and
I get it right.
So these,
these types
of
conversations
and just
showing
some compassion
and empathy,
showing
some
understanding,
giving people
the time
to just vent
a little bit,
in a
healthy way.
It it's just

(35:58):
80% of context
and it builds
relationship.
Yeah.
It builds
bonds. Yeah.
The three
questions.
Right.
Like you're
answering
them, you're
answering
I care
answering
I trust you,
I understand
you, I'm
invested
in you.
I get that
like me too
I get it right.
That's it's
so huge.
And then when
you understand

(36:18):
that as
a leader
and these
things happen
to you,
you get that.
That's
how a big part
of your role
is to be able
to hear
people out
and tell them
that,
yeah, it's
going to be
okay.
And I
appreciate that
you've been
through
the struggle
and that
it was hard.
Yeah, right.
So many
conversations
like so big
and small.
Yeah.
Right.
Other
practical
advice.
Yeah.
Zig Ziglar
I love this
quote from him.

(36:39):
When you help
others get what
they want,
they will help
you get what
you want.
And so
understanding
people's
motives is
a very,
very big
in dealing
with conflict
or tough
conversations.
If people are
not motivated
or their
personality
doesn't jive
with something
or, you know,
it's it's
just
understanding
humans
in general,
right?
And so

(36:59):
if you
understand that
they want
something
or they're
going in
a direction
or they have
a goal
or whatever
it be,
and you
figure out
how to resolve
a conflict
in a way
that helps them
get what
they want,
they're going
to help
you get what
you want,
right?
And so when
you don't care
what
other people want
and they're
your tool,
go do what
I tell you
to do.
You're going to
just have a lot
more conflict,
right? Yeah.

(37:19):
And it is
a reciprocity
thing is
when we do
try and
resolve
conflict
and we do
try to make
people's lives
easier
and better
when we do,
you know,
understand them
and care
about them
and try and
help them.
They're
going to
like, be
reciprocity,
just like
they're willing
to help us
as well. Right.
And so if we
if we're
completely
selfish
in our motives
and we always

(37:40):
have an agenda
with all of
these
conversations,
people are
going
to see that
and we're not
going to trust
us, right?
So help people
get what
they want,
try to
resolve
conflicts
that it's
a reason
in and of
itself
to resolve
conflict
just because
people don't
want to be
in conflict.
Yeah, right.
A lot of times
other people
don't want
to go and deal
with conflict
with another
person
within the
organization.
So you're going

(38:00):
to
facilitate it
while you're
helping them
get
what they want,
which is
resolution.
Yeah, right.
And when
when everyone
lives in
a peaceful,
resolved world,
they're
going to
really care
and respect
and appreciate
the corporation
and protect
the culture,
and they're
going to
help me get
what I want,
which is a good culture
and
a good performance.
Okay.
Yeah. Right.
So that
that's always
a thing.
Understand
people's

(38:20):
motives. Right.
Because
sometimes
you've just
put someone in
a wrong spot
or the
situation that
they're in
is totally
opposite
of what
they care about
and what
they want.
Yeah.
And you
place them
badly.
And the
continued
conflict
that keeps
happening,
is it
that they're
stuck in
this place
that doesn't
work for them?
And resolving
the conflict
would be
understanding
what they want
and why
this isn't
working
for them.
Yeah, right.
They may
not even

(38:40):
be able
to communicate
that well
to you,
but if you can
figure
that out,
you can
resolve things
before
they even
happen. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Right.
It's a
big deal.
Building
rapport,
relationships
and respect
with your
people early.
So, you
know, if
if you're
having a lot
of conflict,
conflict
in your
organization,
there's
a good chance
that you are

(39:01):
not connecting
with people
and
understanding
them and
building
rapport
and respect
with them.
You know,
if you
have to build
rapport
and respect
and a
relationship,
a person
at the point
of the conflict
that you're
trying to
resolve,
you got a lot
bigger mountain
to climb,
right?
Whereas
when you are
in a good
standing
with
your people,
when you've
operated in
a way
that is
respected,

(39:21):
when you
generally do
resolve
conflicts
and have had
good outcomes
with people,
yeah,
they get
easier, right?
Whereas
when
you have an agenda
and you don't
actually really
care about them
and you just
want this
problem
to go away
and they can
sense that,
that you're
just not going
to get
the traction
that you
want, right?
So doing it
early
when people
aren't in
conflict
is going
to make
the conflict
one probably

(39:41):
not arise
in the
first place.
And two, it's
a lot easier
for you
to speak
into people's
lives and help
correct them.
Yes,
even their
performance.
Like if people
respect the
respect
you
as their leader
and you bring
a problem
up to them
about
their performance,
they're
going to want
your approval.
They want you
to respect
and
appreciate them.
And so when you
explain,
hey, I'm

(40:01):
not actually
really happy
with the way
that you're
operating here.
And
they respect
you and
they know
you care
about them,
the chance
of them
actually
changing
the behavior
to improve is
much,
much higher.
Oh yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
If you're just
executive guy
from office
two floors up
and you
come down
and tell a guy
how you don't
appreciate his
performance
and you've only
talked to him
twice ever
before. Yeah.

(40:22):
I don't
think
you're going
to get
the traction.
So another
thing with
that is
actually
understand
who should deal
with the
conflicts,
right?
So when
we get to
an organization
organization
the size
that we are,
I actually
delegate
conflict
resolution
to the direct
report of
the people
that are in
conflict.
So I'm
going, hey,
Kevin,

(40:42):
your team,
there's two
people on
your team
that aren't
getting along.
You
probably know
about that.
It's time
for you
to bring them
into a room
and deal
with that
conflict.
Because Kevin
they both
respect you
and they
if you
tell them
that they
need to
figure this out
and that you're
here to make it
help them
do that.
The chances
of that
conflict
getting
resolved is
much higher
because you
have rapport
and
relationship

(41:03):
and respect
from the
people.
I'm the owner
of the company.
They've met
me twice.
I can go in
and do that,
but it's
an
authoritative
version.
It's
a respected
relationship
and your type
of
conversation.
So getting
getting
that built
with your teams
early is
really key.
And making sure
the right
person
is dealing with
the conflict.
So very key.

(41:24):
And then
lastly on
practical
advice
and
implementation
is as
a leader,
there's,
there's
tactical things
you can do
to just
be better
at this
type of stuff.
So building up
your people
skills,
learning
to read
facial
expressions
and body
language
and tonality,
learning
to control
your body
language,

(41:45):
your
expressions,
your tone
and your
attitude
and
conversations
like I was
talking
about coming
into a
conversation
with a calm
and confident
vibe.
Yeah, right.
Where you're
you're
vibrating
at that
confidence
level.
They
pick up on that
and they mirror
and match your
your tonality.
They'll
they'll
match that
if you raise
your voice
or if you lower
your voice,
if you talk
in specific
ways,
you can control

(42:05):
how someone
responds
to you, right?
How much
eye contact
you make,
how much,
how their
facial
expressions are
working, you,
how their body
language
is closed
or open. Right.
If they,
you know,
all these
things
you can
pick up on
conflict early
and you can
deal with it.
And when people
won't tell
you, let's say
you're getting
into a
conversation
with someone
and you're
having a
performance
improvement
plan.

(42:26):
And that person
is sitting
slouched
in the chair
and your arms
are crossed
and they're
giving you
a little bit
of a
resentment,
facial
expression.
Yeah,
you're going
to have
a lot better
chance
of going, okay,
this isn't
working.
What are we going
to do?
Different
and changing
the tone
of the thing
and getting
more
in the face,
or maybe
having a
little more.
Yeah.
Intensity.
Maybe you need
less intensity.
Do we
lean forward?
Do we lean back
or are they
leaning back?

(42:46):
Yeah.
So there
there is
an endless
amount
of information
when it comes
to being
good at
dealing
with people,
understanding
people skills,
body language,
facial
expressions,
vibration,
attitude,
perspectives,
clarity,
all these types
of things.
There's books,
there's
podcasts,
there's YouTube
videos.
Speaking of
YouTube,
we actually

(43:06):
have are on
YouTube now.
Yeah,
we just
finally started
putting up
all the videos
on YouTube.
So it has
its own channel
to watch,
or listen
on YouTube
if that's
platform
you like.
Go subscribe
and like us
on YouTube is.
Yeah.
You can go
to YouTube
and then
just type
into the
search bar
Built to Lead
with Jory
Evans.
And our channel
should pop up.
Yeah. Perfect.
That's

(43:26):
shameless
self-promotion.
Yeah. Perfect.
Our sponsors
today are no
Jerry Evans.
Yeah.
No kidding.
So people
skills.
Work on
yourself.
Guys like,
it's,
you know, read
the books,
go looking for
the
information.
Right.
I'll
also plug,
Vanessa
Van Edwards
if you
follow her
on social

(43:46):
media.
She's got
a book
called
captivate.
Another book
called cuz
she has
training
courses called
The Science
of People.
Invaluable
information
that she gives
on reading
people's
facial
expressions,
understanding
people's
personalities,
looking at
body language,
things like
how handshakes,
and mess
with the
hormones
between you

(44:07):
and another
person
to build
rapport
and trust.
Some like
physical
touch, eye
contact,
the appropriate
amount of
eye contact,
the appropriate
amount of space
between you
and
another person
when you're
talking.
How to make
a good
first
impression.
All this
stuff is
out there,
and these
things are
muscles
that you
can work
on improving
as a leader
that are
going to make
these
conversations
ways.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Ways or so,

(44:27):
because not
all of us are
are
naturally
gifted
in these
aptitudes.
You know,
we just
we're not
good at it.
And some people
are really
good at it.
And my wife
is very good
at that kind
of stuff,
whereas I'm
not as good.
So I have to go
and
I have to do
that work.
I have to go
find those
people.
I have to go
read the books.
I have to do
all that stuff.
One
just saying,
well,
I don't I'm
an introvert
and I don't

(44:47):
really connect
with people
and I'm awkward
and like that.
That's not a
good enough
answer.
There's
there are answers.
There are
ways to grow
our skills.
There's ways
to get better.
This is a
self-improvement
podcast.
Yeah.
You're
listening
to this
to get better.
So I'm assuming
if you're
listening
to this
you'd be
willing to also
do that.
Yeah.
So go out
and look for
this stuff.
Emotional
intelligence,
people skills.

(45:08):
Personality
traits. Yeah.
Like there's
just endless
amount
of information.
Use that
information
to
educate yourself
so that you
can be
better at doing
the sorts
of stuff,
pain points,
what are the
problems
and things,
or what
are some things
that can point
to us
that we need
to do
something
different
or better?
Again,
early
in my career,
there's a lot

(45:29):
that I use
these
terminologies.
Lots.
It's kind of
almost
buzzwords from
in our
organization
at this point.
But,
when you have
blindside
conversations,
so when you
bring
someone in
to have
a conversation
about something
that happened,
an incident
or consistently
a pattern
of bad
behavior,
and you
bring them in
and you point
out to them
that you
know, hey,

(45:50):
there's been
a lot
of aggressive
driving,
hard braking
events,
you know,
a couple
near-miss
accidents.
You drive
too fast
generally.
And we've
talked to
you about it
a few times.
And they're
just, like,
completely
lambasts like,
I can't believe
that you'd say
this about,
like,
what do you
mean?
I thought
I was doing
a good job.
And or like.
Or when
if you're
going to.

(46:10):
And horrible.
And
I've done this
and I hope
you guys are
not doing this,
but you are
firing someone,
and they had
no idea
it was coming
at all.
Yeah. Okay.
There's two
potential
issues here.
Number
one issue
that you
need to look
for is first,
look
at yourself.
So
have you
been silent
and not
communicating
to this person
about
what's wrong?
Have you

(46:31):
been clear
about what
your
expectations
are?
Have you
brought them
in previously,
or have you had
soft touch
conversations
with them
about what
they're doing
and what
you want?
Right.
Clear outcomes
that you're
looking for
with them,
what they're
not doing
right,
how they can
adjust
coaching,
these types
of things.
If you're not
having good
communication,
open
communication
at this person
and they're
blindsided,

(46:51):
that's
your fault.
As a leader,
it's like
50% of the time
a blindside
is the
leader's fault
or even maybe
higher. Right?
Okay.
The other
potential
issue is
this person
is not
a good fit
for your
organization,
for your team,
as a friend,
whatever it be
that you're
in conflict
with
this person,
if they are
truly
blindsided,
they have
a blind spot

(47:11):
and they're not
willing to
accept it.
Did they don't
understand it?
And you feel
that you have
clearly
communicated
that, hey,
you're messing
with my
personal space.
Hey,
you're driving
too fast or too
aggressive
to this.
And
you told them
five
other times.
And whether
they're
documents
or not, and you
and you're
telling them
now and they're
just like.
Like they've
never heard it
before

(47:31):
in your life.
It's time
to cut
the cord.
Yeah, right.
Toxic
relationships,
bad employees,
bad team
members.
Time to
let them go.
Right.
If you've done
everything
you can do
to lead
them well,
and they're
still not
picking it up
in their
blindsided,
it needs to
end.
So that's
a huge cue
for the time
to let them go.
Time to
get them off.
Time to
move on.
Yeah, right.
So blindsides.

(47:52):
Next
thing is
what I called
the guns
blazing
approach,
which
we touched
a little bit
on it, but,

I learned this,
of course,
and
unfortunately
the hard way
on multiple
occasions,
in my
early days.
But,
someone will
come to
you and
tell you
so-and-so
did this,
and they did
that,
and they said
this, and they
it well,
and
you're like,
No way.
That's

(48:12):
not true.
And that's I'll
tell you a lot.
And then
you go
sometimes
and sometime
over to
that person,
you go,
you did this
and you did
that, and
you did this,
you did that.
You come
in guns
blazing and
you don't give
that person
the opportunity
to tell you
their side
of the story
before you
accuse them
of things.
Yeah, okay.
Do not do this,
please, for
the love.
Do not do this

(48:33):
because I
have had
my butt
handed to me
on many
occasions
where I got
riled up
in a moment
and I went
and started
accusing
someone of
something
without
hearing their
side
of the story.
And
I'll tell you
what,
there is
always two or 3
or 4 sides
to any story.
There's
many sides,
right?
And and
perspectives
and all
kinds of
other things.
And if you
are the guy
that takes
one perspective

(48:54):
and starts
running hard
with it,
you're
going to,
you're
going to
get blindsided
yourself.
You're going
to hit
some nasty
walls
and you're
going to upset
some people
in an
unfair manner.
You cannot be
fair while only
having one side
of the story.
And this
even I
found this in,
in, individual
coaching
and mentoring
relationships
where someone's

(49:15):
in conflict
with
someone else
and you were
trying to
coach them
and you don't
know the
other person
and don't have
access to them.
You need to be
very careful
in that
situation
as well,
in the same
sort of
scenario
where you make
a judgment
on
another person,
or you judge
a situation,
or you change
your behavior
about something
because of
a consistent
information
or load

(49:35):
from a
individual
single
perspective.
So, don't
go in
guns blazing.
Don't make
judgments
with only one
side of
the story.
Yeah, right.
So, and
with that,
looks like
the solution
to that
is
if you're
going to
go in like,
okay,
this is
something
that has to
be resolved.
But like you
can be talking
about

(49:55):
harass ment,
bullying,
racism,
bad attitude,
insubordination,
all these
types of things
you need
to give.
You need that
before
you make
any kind
of an
accusation.
You need to
explain
the situation
to them.
Like,
hey, I heard
there was
an altercation
with so-and-so
in in
the yard
yesterday.
Can you explain to me

(50:16):
what happened
from your
perspective?
Right.
The power
of doing that.
Number one,
it helps them
to feel
like you,
they've
been heard
and and answers
the
three questions.
Do I care
about you.
Kind of
help you
and can you
trust me
if
they feel
like you're
willing to
hear them out
before you
pass judgment.
That's a trust
building. Yeah.
Thing.
Absolutely.
Right.
And and
information.
The more areas
you can get

(50:36):
perspective
information
from,
the more clear
of a judgment
you can make,
and then
you can deal
with it
in a fair
and correct
way.
Yeah, right.
But just
guns blazing,
remember
guns blazing
and now going
in, guns
blazing
and blasting.
Who don't
want to be
that guy?
No, that's
not good
leadership,
right?
That's
an emotional
reaction
and responding
it's unwise.
Well, yeah.
And a lot
of times

(50:56):
you're
talking to
somebody
who brought you
the information
is actually
relaying
second hand
information.
And there's.
Yeah.
And then now
it's like,
well,
what in the
heck is
going on?
Like I'm
getting
all these
different
stories
and yeah,
and then
and they're
fabrications
a lot
of the time
they're
fabrications
based off of
light
information.
And they can
even not

(51:17):
be lying.
It's just
their
perspective.
Everyone has a
different
perspective.
You know,
it could be
highly
questionable,
unnecessary,
highly
emotional,
highly factual.
Like there's
a lot of
different ways
to look
at any
given
situation.
And it depends
how much
information
that person has
in context.
Right.
You lack
context
in a lot
of scenarios
about what's
actually

(51:37):
going on
in the
situation.
Right?
So getting
as big
of a picture
and look around
a, in
a intense
situation
before
passing
judgment
or actually
dealing
with the
current with
the conflict
itself.
So pain points
it one more
thing that
I think
it's important
to kind
of touched
on earlier,
but I want
to be clear
with that is,
is that
as leaders,

(51:58):
we often expect
or feel
our backs
up
against the wall,
especially
when we have
big teams
or companies
that have a lot
of employees.
We we're
we're actually
afraid
to bring up
or have
a
crucial conversation
because
we're afraid
that people
are going
to push
back, resent
us, dislike us.
Quinn,
leave us.
High and
dry storm
out
of the room.
We all feel
this way,

(52:18):
you know,
especially
when it's
really hard
to find
employees
and good people
and all these
types
of things.
We feel often
that our backs
against
the wall,
when we have
to bring up
hard or
crucial things
with our team.
And the reality
with this,
is it
just from
a pure
statistical
standpoint,
when we take
the risk
as a leader,
because
everything's
a risk,
when you go

(52:38):
into a conflict
to carefully
and properly
deal
with a problem
and whether it
be in
performance
or attitude
or values
or whatever
it be,
the majority
of the time
the other person
will respect
you more
as a leader
and respond
in a positive
way, or
try to
correct it
even if they don't
agree with you.

(52:59):
If if you're
the leader
and they
respect your
leadership,
they're
going to try
to improve.
They don't
want you
to be
disappointed
in them.
They don't want
the community
to be
disappointed
in them.
And if you
are the leader
or the
or the person
who's creating
the culture
in the
community
and you're
disappointed,
it also means
other people
are
disappointed
in them.
And you
shouldn't
word it
that way

(53:19):
ever
as a leader.
But that is
the nature
of the
conversation.
So
assuming that
bringing up
a tough
topic
or a hard
situation
or a crucial
conversation
is going
to result
in resentment,
negativity, bad
mouthing,
quitting,
it's not.
It's not
statistically
true.
Right? Right.
And again,
I don't love this
analogy, but

(53:40):
I think people
can understand
this a bit
when when
you have
you punish
your dog,
when you're
training
your dog,
you think
when you
punish
your dog,
you assume
your dog
is going
to hate you
and growl
at you
and hatred.
That's after,
in actuality,
they end up
sucking up
to you
and they want
to cuddle up
right after
you spank them
or whatever
it be.
That's more
the the

(54:00):
what I'll call
the primitive
natural
response
to me,
corrected
by someone
who is an alpha
or a leader
is for them
to actually
draw closer.
We think
they're going
to run away
and hide.
They tend
to actually
draw closer
if you have a
healthy
relationship.
Yeah.
So keep
that in mind
when you're
going to have
a corrective
conversation
and
they understand
that you
care about
them,
you can help them
and
they trust you

(54:20):
when you're
invested
in them.
And you have
rapport
and
relationship
and yeah,
respect
correcting them
will draw them
closer to you,
not push
them away.
Yeah.
Because
ultimately
they should
understand that
you're trying
to make
the
relationship
stronger
and you're
trying to make
the community
stronger
and work
more and
function
better. Yeah.
And it's
incredibly

(54:41):
important
that you
communicate it
and do
it correctly
with the timing
and all
the other
things
that we've
talked about
today.
You got to do those
things right.
But if you do
them right,
people are
going to tend
to not run
away from you.
They're going
to tend to
come closer.
Yeah, right.
And so just
knowing that
from a
statistic
anomaly
and a reality
of how
people interact
will help
give you
confidence

(55:01):
to do
those
corrective,
conversations.
And as you have
and stack wins,
you will
actually come
to understand
how that works
a lot better.
Yeah. Right.
If you
if you have
those hard
conversations,
most people
won't.
That's
the thing.
Like people
have worked
in
organizations
and been
in and,
parenting
relationships
and marriages
and all kinds
of things

(55:21):
where the risk
of having
a hard
conversation
or the effort
of having
a card
conversation
was more
than that
person
was willing
to spend
or to risk
to help
that person
get better
when they see
that you're
willing
to stick
your neck out
and you're
willing to
to put
yourself out,
to have
a hard
conversation
that no
one wants
to have
and be honest
with someone.
Risk that

(55:41):
they might not
like what
you have
to say.
They ultimately
respect
and see
that you
care about them
on a much
deeper level.
Yeah, right.
So that's
that's how
those things
go.
That's
the facts.
Not 100%
of the time,
but actually
the majority
of the time.
Right.
You would think
when you have
a performance
improvement
conversation,
you know,
naturally
your negative
thought process
thinks that

(56:01):
you know
what, people
don't change
ten, 20%,
maybe
everyone else
is just
that's
how they are.
You just
let them go.
That's
not
my experience.
My experience
is when we
have
performance
improvement
or corrective
conversations
that more
than 50%
of people
improve.
Right.
The majority
actually
get better
and try
to improve
because you've
communicated

(56:21):
with them
and they
actually
respect
and appreciate
the leadership
that's trying
to help them
be better,
not
just at work
but in their
life.
Yeah, right.
As long
as you're
not coming
with a
manipulative
agenda
and we're just
actually trying
to make them
a better
person,
they will
appreciate them
trying right.
To kind of wrap
this up,
it's important
as a leader,
when you're
with a group
or a team

(56:42):
leader,
whatever
you do,
have authority
over people,
to be
a safe place.
And I
keep bringing
up the
three questions,
but they're
really,
really good.
Think about,
you know,
do do you care
about me?
Can you help
me?
Can I trust
you?
Think about
rapport,
relationship,
respect.
We need
these things
to be
a good leader.
And
when we have

(57:02):
them,
we can have
these
conversations
and have really
good outcomes
and really
good,
perspective
with people.
So make sure
that you're
safe.
Make sure
that you're
someone that
that people
will bring
their conflicts
to and believe
that you're
going to
help them
resolve
those
conflicts,
and you're
going to
be able
to build
a much
stronger,
healthier
culture,
and you're
going to
just enjoy
your work
more, right?
These conflicts

(57:23):
hanging out in
the balance.
I just waste
so heavy on
you as a leader
and you just
under you
underestimate
how much
they're
really
hurting you
and your
performance
and your
whole
organization by
allowing them
to just
fester
and bubble
around
on the surface,
you know?
Yeah,
they're not an
immediate
issue.
They're not
blowing up
in your face
at the moment,
but they're
they are

(57:43):
hurting
in a
significant way
under
the surface.
And you
need to deal
with them.
As you're
a leader,
I think
the mindset
that we need to
look at here
is that it
is our
responsibility
to resolve
conflicts.
We should be
mining
for conflict.
We need to
be, on
the like,
watching
the horizon,
always for
potential
conflicts.
We're watching
for tenseness
between people.

(58:04):
And we're
looking to
to really
connect people
and build
relationships
and build
rapport
between
our staff
and between
our team
members,
and keep
everybody on
a friendly,
supportive
and helpful
perspective.
We need to
make sure
that our values
are everywhere.
You know,
I don't think
anyone has
any kind
of values
that are tied
to having
conflict
in their company
or in their
life, right?

(58:25):
If we want to
be happy
and healthy
and
we want our staff
to be healthy,
happy and
healthy,
we need to
live in a way
that is
forgiving
and resolving
and redemptive
in the way
that we
respond.
And obviously,
that's
how Jesus
operated
as well,
which is
my belief
is that,
you know,
we want
to make a
profitable
company
and we want
to build
good,
strong
corporations
and have these

(58:46):
other things
ultimate goals
to reach.
But
at the end of the day,
we want to have a life
that we we
enjoy living
and it's funny
I said this
to someone
the other day,
I had
just taken
a holiday
the when I was
away for
a month,
and another one
where I
was a week,
and the last
two times
that I've left
for an extended
period of time.
I realized
when
I came back

(59:06):
that I love
the people
of our
organization
much more
than I love
the business,
right?
And when
I'm around
our people
and I'm
around,
you know,
we're 100
and some
different
people and,
and I'm
dealing with
and living
and community
in relationship
with these
people.
I'm
a happier person.
And that's
because we
care about
each other.
We can help each other
and we trust
each other.
Yeah, right.

(59:27):
We build
rapport
and
relationship
here.
We have a
strong culture
and strong
community,
and that's
because we do
not tolerate
drama
and conflict,
and
we don't
let things
go unresolved.
And we believe
in being
positive
and forgiving
and supportive
and uplifting
of one another
in this
conversation.
And that's
something that
we built.
And it's
worth building
because it it's
really

(59:47):
genuinely makes
you feel
fulfilled
and happy
as a person
and
as a leader.
It is the thing
that we do
as a leader
that that
matters.
It's our
purpose
is to bring
that kind
of thing.
So,
just
remember this.
The takeaway
for today,
dealing
in conflict
resolution is
my
responsibility
as a leader,
and I
am capable
of doing it.

(01:00:08):
I have the
skills
and abilities
to do
it, and I
can be
excellent.
I can be
an expert.
Conflict
resolution
leader.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Perfect.
Well,
I appreciate
you guys
listening
today.
I think
that was,
hopefully
helpful
to all of you.
Obviously,
if it
is helpful,
I'd really
appreciate it
if you share it,
whether it
be on
social media,
whether you
copy the link

(01:00:28):
to the podcast
and text it
to a friend
and say,
hey, have a
listen.
Like us.
Subscribe.
Connect
with us online.
We appreciate
connecting with
you guys
all the time.
And,
yeah,
just go
out there
and,
be built
to lead. Yeah.
Thanks,
everybody.