December 4, 2024 • 51 mins
In 1961, Eleanor Roosevelt had just finished a call with recently elected John F. Kennedy, when she received a call from the future…
In this episode, she'll explain why J Edgar Hoover started a file on her suggesting that she was a pervert. She'll also talk about the time she spent in the slums that caused her to pursue a life of service, and she'll discuss the ultimate betrayal of her husband, four term president, franklin D Roosevelt.
Listen to the Calling History Podcast on Spotify, Apple, or your favorite provider.
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Ruth Pangrace’s inspiring portrayal of Eleanor Roosevelt is a powerful reminder that a person’s value is judged by their contribution. Few have given more selflessly than Eleanor Roosevelt. Ruth joined Women in History in 1998 and portrays fourteen notable American women. In addition to Eleanor Roosevelt, her favorites include Susan B Anthony, Julia Child, and Georgia O’Keeffe. Ruth has an M. Ed and has taught pre-school to graduate level education, English and history classes. Ruth can be reached at women@womeninhistoryohio.com, or ruthpangrace@gmail.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
I'm Tony Dean.
And today we'll be calling historyto speak with Eleanor Roosevelt.
She'll be answering our call in 1961.
After the recent election of presidentKennedy, Eleanor Roosevelt was an
extraordinary woman that spent herlife protecting some and helping others
rise above their perceived station.
She was a civil rights activiststood up for child labor laws
(00:51):
toward the battlefields of world wartwo to raise the morale of the troops.
The list of her good deeds isendless yet, despite all of her
accomplishments and her commitment toservice, she was orphaned at 10 and
raised by her grandmother that wouldn'tlet her play with children's toys.
She was constantly insulted because ofher looks and yet found a way to rise
(01:12):
above it all in to this day is listedas America's number one first lady, even
though she would occasionally hang ababy out a third story window, I suppose
none of us are perfect at everything.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellowhistory, lovers, and women with
driver's licenses everywhere.
I give you Eleanor Roosevelt.
Hello, is that you, Mrs.
(01:33):
Roosevelt?
Yes, this is Mrs.
Roosevelt speaking.
What?
Mrs.
Roosevelt, I am so excitedto speak with you today.
My name is Tony Dean and I'm talking toyou from the future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding iscalled a smartphone and it's quite a
bit different and more advanced thanthe phones that you have in your time.
(01:53):
And it actually makes thisconversation possible.
It also allows me to share a recordof our conversation with people around
the world so that those that don't.
about this incredible contributionthat you've made to your country
and your world, so that theywould have a chance to hear that.
And I was hoping that I could ask yousome questions today, but before I do, I
(02:15):
understand this is a strange introduction.
Can I answer any questionsthat you may have first?
Well, I don't think so.
I'm rather flabbergasted by the ideathat you're actually calling from
the future to speak with me, and I'malso perhaps a little bit intimidated
by the idea of a Smart phone.
I'm certainly familiar with conversationson my own telephone, but I just
hope I can live up to the smartaspect of it and keep up with you.
(02:39):
But thank you again.
I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Well, you're going tokeep up with it just fine.
In fact, the problem that all theother people in the world have,
even in our time, is keeping upwith you, with all of the things
that you've done and accomplished.
Like, it just seems like you havethis Never ending amount of energy
(02:59):
towards causes that really matter.
And I guess, one of the things Iwanted to ask you right away is that,
is it true that you were The firstlady to have a driver's license.
Is that correct?
Well, that is certainly true.
And I, I always made it my goal actuallyto be a very different kind of first
lady because being a first lady issomething that I never aspired to.
(03:22):
In fact, I actually dreaded it.
So yes, I suppose I was the first lady.
First Lady to drive her owncar and probably quite a
list of other things, too.
Makes me proud to say that I was avery different kind of First Lady.
What is the year right now in your time?
Well, we're in 1961, and I'm very happy tosay that despite my age into my 70s, I am
(03:45):
still making certain that I am active andalways trying to be useful, and that is
what I've always tried to do, I believethat Once you stop being useful and once
you stop being of service to others,it's certainly when you begin to die.
So even though my children tellme that it's time for you to slow
down, Mother, I refuse to becausethere still is just so much to do.
(04:08):
Why would they even tryto tell you to slow down?
At this point, with you being in your70s, haven't they given up trying to
tell you to back off a little bit?
No, I'm not going to back off.
And that certainly is very true.
And I think by now, once I say thatthey stopped even arguing with me.
And I would like to think that in someways they are even very proud of me.
I still have the honor of workingclosely with president John F.
(04:29):
Kennedy, and he actually askedme to chair a commission on the
status of women in this country.
I had the great pleasure ofmeeting Martin Luther King at a
speech that he gave just this.
So I'm still very active in thatcivil rights movement, and I am so
encouraged as I enter my later years.
(04:49):
I'm so encouraged by the fact that we havethese great leaders in our country taking
us forward into the next generation.
So tell me, you'd mentioned Kennedy.
So Kennedy is having you chair someorganization for women's rights.
What does that look like?
And I'm curious what kindof person Kennedy is.
You know, it took me quite awhile to warm up to John F.
(05:10):
Kennedy.
I, I wasn't a particular Um, andI also had a run in or two with
Cardinal Spelman over Catholicschools and public funding and such.
And so I was a bit skeptical aboutthis young man of privilege and
Catholic ascending into this positionas President of the United States.
(05:31):
And yet, now that I know John Kennedy,Well, I see in him something that I
loved about my husband, Franklin, andthat's the ability to connect to other
people, to be able to communicate, and tolisten and to feel their needs and their
sufferings, their longings, and theirdifferent requirements from their leaders,
I like to sometimes even believe thatit's almost incorporating some of the new
(05:55):
deal values that Franklin had for thiscountry, that kind of vision, in John F.
Kennedy.
And so , I'm very proud tohave that privilege to know
him and to work with him.
And what he asked me to do was,I complained because he was
not putting enough women inpositions in his administration.
And I submitted a letter, I believeactually it was three pages, a list of
(06:16):
all the different positions I felt thathe could fill with very responsible
and accomplished women in this countryto just make that administration
a little bit more well balanced.
And actually he took noticeand he was listening to me.
So he , appointed me to be on thiscommission to lead a study into the
status of women in this country right now.
And if we really are achievingthe equality that we've
(06:36):
been , after for so very long.
What is the status of women in your time?
, women have been voting for about 40 years.
What are some of the inequalitiesthat you're unhappy with?
Well, we certainly aren't representedin higher levels of administration,
whether it's government or lawfirms or big business and such.
There is a lack of women visibleand active in those kinds
(06:58):
of higher level positions.
And certainly there are very manywomen who still uh, frustrated by
their difficulty in making their wayin, in any career and being recognized
for the very hard work that they do.
There are still too many women whoare expected only to be secretaries or
aides and such, instead of taking on theleadership roles that they so deserve.
Other than that, certainly we enjoy theright to vote, but we also have great
(07:21):
work to do in educating women so thatwhen they use their vote, they use it
wisely and that they choose the verybest leaders that this country needs.
, speaking of the the right to vote.
I think you were involved or you areinvolved in, you're going to have
to forgive me, but I can't rememberthe name of this organization.
It's the something league of women voters.
Is that an organization you're
involved with?
(07:42):
Yes.
I was always an activeparticipant and member advocates
of the league of women voters.
You know, , I didn't become suffragistuntil much later, until I actually
was pretty much forced into takingon a stronger role in the community
and in social issues, even though Ialready had a husband and children.
However, I think I really became moreactive in the League of Women Voters when
(08:04):
Franklin Ran for Vice President of theUnited States in 1920 with James Cox.
They were the democratic candidatesfor the presidency, and that
was right after World War I.
And it was also the very first yearthat women had the right to vote.
And unfortunately there arevery many of us who feel that
women squandered that vote.
(08:26):
By voting instead of Mr.
Cox and Franklin, they voted forWarren Harding, who happened to be very
handsome, and he looked like a filmstar, a movie star, and the women were
attracted to his appearance and his looksrather than they were his capabilities
and his qualifications, and he turnedout to be one of the worst presidents
that this country has ever seen.
So I made it a goal of mine.
(08:46):
To educate women, again, about theresponsibility that comes with the
right to vote, and making sure that theywould be able to use that vote wisely.
And so the League of Women Voters NewYork Women's Democratic Committee, I
worked on all of those in all of thoseagencies throughout most of the 20s, when
I had that decade to kind of find, again,other things to do to make myself useful.
(09:11):
You're welcome.
So in 1920, so that was thevery first time that you voted.
Is that correct?
Oh, yes.
That is correct.
Yes, that is correct.
Yeah.
And what was going on around that time?
, is this where you dedicated a lot ofyour time at that particular moment?
I dedicated some of my time.
At that time, the suffragists hadalready been working for that vote
(09:34):
for, Probably 50 years, and it tookthem that long to finally gain it,
and again, women were allowed to vote,but very few did, and very few were
making what we thought intelligentdecisions when they were using that vote.
When I was married, and I hadyoung children, And I will tell you
more about my mother in law later,perhaps, in this conversation.
(09:54):
She pretty much took over runningthe household for me, and I wanted
to please her, and Franklin did notwant to challenge her or stand up
to her when she overstepped a bit inour household and in our marriage.
But it also forced me to go out andmake myself useful in other venues.
So, yes, I did work for women's rights.
And I worked for those Democraticcommittees, and I worked for
(10:15):
the League of Women Voters.
But there were also so many otherthings in this country that needed
the attention of those that had thetime and the willingness to volunteer.
This was right after World War Iended, and it was a horrific war.
And there were so many men and somewomen who returned from that war not only
physically wounded, but also shell shockedfrom the horrors that they saw there.
(10:38):
So I volunteered at the Red Cross andtook care of some of those young men,
those heroes really, who were not gettingthe kind of care that they deserve.
And so I became active in also workingfor the rights and the care for veterans.
There were children in 1920who were working in factories
instead of going to school.
There were no child labor laws andsome of these children were as young
(10:59):
as eight years old and working infactories on assembly lines till
their little fingers were even bloody.
And so I also became activethen during those years working
to establish child labor laws.
There were so many inequalities andpoor conditions for the veterans too.
So it, I would go.
Into veterans hospitals and make sure thatthey were receiving the care that they
(11:22):
deserved and that the places were clean.
I would open all the cupboardsand I would look under the
beds, and I always said that.
You cannot expect anyone tosleep in a bed that you're not
ready to sleep in yourself.
I, there were terrible conditionsfor men in our country who were
trying so desperately to make aliving by working in the mines.
And oh, those mines were very unsafeconditions and there was no laws in place
(11:47):
made those working conditions acceptable.
So I had my own pair of overalls and I'dput on my overalls and I'd climb down
into those mines and inspect them myself.
They were dangerous placesfor men to be working.
I made sure that I took those back tothe committees and very often these
committees were made up of women,who saw that those laws were put into
(12:07):
place to protect the Americans inthis country who are working so hard.
During those years, I also, inaddition to these other courses,
I also started my own school.
I started the Todd HunterSchool because I've always been
such a proponent of education.
And I'll tell you whatinspired me to do that.
You know, I had neverattended school before.
I tragically lost my parentswhen I was only 10 years old.
(12:31):
I was orphaned at age 10.
And I had never attended school.
I was always privately tutored.
And when my mother and my fatherboth passed away, I was sent
to live with my grandmother.
Grandmother who?
It was my mother's mother, and shewas very stern and very strict.
She probably was unlike mostgrandmothers that you have ever
(12:52):
come in contact with, Tony.
She always kept the window shades drawn,and it was very dark, and there was
no talking or laughing at dinnertime,and she didn't believe in toys.
She was very religious, and soI remember my only comfort in
being with books and with reading.
She had four grown daughters.
(13:13):
Children that also lived with her,unmarried, and they were also fond
of guns and of alcohol and it wasa very unpleasant environment for
a young girl to be growing up in.
You know, sometimes I would cry becauseI would so miss, especially my father.
And grandmother Hall would say, we'llhave none of that kind of emotion
(13:34):
or those kinds of outbursts here.
If you're going to cry, you might aswell go in your room and cry alone.
She brought in a tutorfor me, the tutor, I know.
And she brought in a tutor forme, her name was Madeline, who had
a bit of a sadistic side to her.
And she took great delight inpulling my braids and making me cry.
I don't think grandmother Hall,I really knew how to handle
(13:56):
me when I was growing up.
And so it wasn't until I was age13 or 14 that she finally decided
to send me to a proper school.
I had never been with children before.
I was afraid of the dark.
I was afraid of dogs and of horses.
And I was mostly afraid that noone would ever really care for me.
(14:17):
So she sent me as far away as shepossibly could, all the way across the
Atlantic to Allenswood School in England.
This does not sound likea very good childhood.
, this is what you just toldme from what I'm hearing.
So mean grandmother, super strict, notoys, but lots of alcohol and guns, and
(14:37):
now we're sick of you, go to England?
I mean, is that kind ofwhat you're telling me?
That's pretty
much what I'm telling you.
And if I back up even further, , , I'llexplain it to my parents, Anna and Elliot
Roosevelt , of the Oyster Bay, RooseveltTeddy Roosevelt was my uncle and, but
the Oyster Bay Roosevelt were verywealthy and popular in social circles.
And my mother was perhaps the mostbeautiful woman that I had ever seen.
(15:01):
And so you can imagine her disappointmentwhen she took a look at me.
When I was a child, Toni, when I was ababy, I was red and wrinkled like a prune.
And my mother promptly gaveme the nickname of Granny.
And she never called me anything else.
And do you know from that time, and soin some ways I think that she influenced
me because she really did not even wantme to approach her when she had a second
(15:25):
child, my baby brother Hall, she wouldhold him in her lap and she would say,
Granny, you just go up in the cornerthen and read a book and leave us alone.
The only time my mother would allow meto come close to her and approach her was
when she would get terrible migraines.
And then she would summon me to herside and I would massage her temples.
Until her headaches went away.
(15:47):
And so, I think, even as a verylittle girl, I always knew that
my life was to be one of service.
My own mother told me, you willnever be attractive, Granny, so you
might as well learn good manners.
But let me tell you about my father.
Wow.
Because my father, though,he did not call me Granny.
My father called me hisbeautiful little Nell.
And when he came home from safaris orfrom travels and such, he would sweep me
(16:10):
up in his arms and he would say, don'tlisten to what your mother tells you.
Because if you have truth andloyalty stamped upon your face, all
the world will be attracted to you.
My father was a Roosevelt, certainly,and when we would have large family
dinners and such, he would always say,we cannot truly enjoy this banquet or all
(16:32):
of these delicacies, knowing that thereare people in New York who are hungry.
And so after every banquet or feastor celebratory dinner, my father
would be the one who would gather upall of the leftovers or spare items
that we had in the kitchen, and hewould go down to the slums of New
York, and he would take me with him.
There were people there, so manyliving in cardboard boxes, starving.
(16:55):
We would go to the soup kitchens andthere my father would share what we
could with those that were in need.
Those were probably some of the happiesttimes I ever had with my father.
That's where the service came from.
That is absolutely wherethe service came from.
And the joy that one gets whenyou're helping others and you're
sharing the blessings that you have.
(17:17):
It seems to me that'skind of a Roosevelt thing.
The Roosevelts have a historyfor this, , I'm assuming his
parents taught him the same thing.
Well that, yes, and when I talked to youa little bit more about our courtship
and such, I was also just so impressedand moved by the fact that Franklin did
share very many of those same values.
But what I wanted to add, before Ifinish with my parents, and I'm sorry
(17:39):
if these stories are going to get verylong, you may regret that you actually
got me on this smart phone, myfather was a Roosevelt, in that after
we would leave the soup kitchens,my father would get very thirsty.
And he would always haveto stop for one sip.
Quick drink.
And so we would go to a hotel or a tavernor a restaurant or something, and he would
(18:02):
say, Eleanor, little Nellie goes, you waithere by the door with the doorman, and
I will just be a few moments, but I justhave to have one little thing to drink.
Do you know once it was six hours later,when finally the doorman had to call
for a taxi cab to come and take me home.
And tragically, that is howmy father died only two years
(18:24):
after my mother, my father died.
from alcoholism, and that is whenI was sent to Grandmother Hall.
But when she finally sent me, whenshe finally sent me to Allenswood,
that school, , perhaps you find thisis true also, and you go through your
life, and you think back at your life,on your life, you know that there are
always people who have moved in and out,but it is only true friends that have
(18:47):
left footprints on my heart, andMadame Sylvester, the headmistress
of that school, Allenswood, inEngland, left her footprints on mine.
Somehow Madame Sylvester saw a veryfrightened and shy uh, backward
girl arrive and shy backwardgirl arrive at her school.
She said she had never really experiencedany happiness at all, and yet she helped
(19:11):
me to understand that no one can makeyou feel inferior without your consent.
She said later that she saw in me apurity of heart and a nobility of spirit.
She recognized something in me anddo you know what else she told me?
Which kind of goes along with thelessons that I learned from my
father is Madam Vera told me that.
You could see I had never been happy orexperienced much happiness, and yet she
(19:34):
said, Happiness in itself is not a goal.
Happiness is a by product.
And it can only be achievedby a life well lived.
And that comes from With helpingothers and being of service.
It was Madame Sylvester whoawakened a curiosity in me
that I had never experienced.
(19:55):
She didn't speak about abook or she didn't lecture.
She offered us a book and sheasked what we thought of the book.
And she was always open to anexchange of all kinds of ideas.
. I still have her portraitnext to my bedside.
She always had a tradition at theschool that if you did something kind
for another one of your classmateswere encouraged to acknowledge
(20:17):
that kindness by leaving flowers.
In the dormitory room of the person whohad shown kindness or had shown care.
And I had only been there forseveral months when I would return
from my classes into my dorm room,it would be filled with flowers.
I get a little choked up when Ieven think about Madame Sylvester.
Those were certainly the threehappiest years of my life.
When my grandmother did not send forme at all for holidays and such it was
(20:41):
Madame Sylvester who took me with her.
And she took me all over Western Europe,and we would not stay at elite hotels
or eat in fancy restaurants and such,but we would go into towns and villages.
where we could be of serviceto the people that were living
there, particularly the poor.
She was involved in very many socialissues that were not only in our
(21:02):
country, but all over Europe andall over the world at that time,
and that was to making sure thateveryone had their basic needs filled.
, It would be so interesting if there was a way to have every person, every
child as they're growing up, go throughsome sort of experience like this.
, there are a lot of countries thatwill have their people serve
in the military, which I thinkthere's probably benefit to that.
(21:25):
But to have them go to poor placesand to serve people and to feed people
The world would be so much better ifeverybody had to have that experience.
I, I wonder, considering where youwere , you're at such a young age,
you're 10 years old, you're now an orphan.
You're living with your grandmotherwho has no toys and lots of guns.
(21:46):
Which just, I still can't get over that.
Well, what would have happenedif she would have just kept
you there and she wouldn't havesent you to see Madam Sylvester?
I think you're totally right , Andsupposing that it would have
a totally different outcome.
I always like to say that everythingthat happens to you, good or bad, in
your life helps to build your character.
(22:07):
And those choices that you make in thosecircumstances that you find yourself in
all build the person that you become.
So certainly if I had never had thatopportunity to meet Madame Sylvester,
I doubt very much if I would be whereI have been privileged to be today.
And I.
That is one of the reasons why Iwanted, during those years, when
I had those freedoms and thoseresources, to start a school.
(22:30):
I started the Todd Hunter Schoolin the 1920s, and believe me, when
I speak to young people today, andI love speaking to young people.
I've always believed they'recertainly our future.
It would be surprised by how many dohave that one teacher in their life,
which truly inspired them and changedthe entire course of their life.
(22:51):
And I would like to believe in ourcountry, and I think President Kennedy
is also in great support of this.
In our country, I'd like tosee programs , like the Peace
Corps, where we do just that.
Don't require.
Students are young peopleto sign up for that.
But it is an opportunity to buildthat kind of character by going
just exactly what you suggested,Tony, by going to other countries
and working with people from othercountries and in other circumstances
(23:14):
and situations and learning as muchfrom them as they can learn from us.
The whole secret just to putthem in that situation so that
they can feel what's going on.
What it's like to take somebody food thatdoesn't have food or to help give somebody
a warmth or a place to stay or somethingto drink when they don't have those things
and see that look on somebody's facewhen they're like, , , you saved my life.
(23:37):
I think that's a beautiful thought.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Great.
And it sounds like I'membracing very many causes.
I've always been much more inspired byone individual that I see in need, rather
than someone lecturing me or sending meinformation or written pieces about some
cause that they want my support for.
(23:58):
It's that one person, as you said, thatlooks you in the face, And appreciate
you and hold your hand when you're ableto share in any capacity with them.
It's that one individual that matters,which is why as First Lady, I've always
encouraged people to write me letters,and I try to have my staff and I try
to answer every single one of them.
Let me ask you about this.
(24:19):
There was one cause that Ithink that I had read about.
I don't, again I don'tknow a lot about this.
I just know a little, butwasn't there or isn't there a
bill that you were trying to.
Champion or you're involved with aboutmaking lynching black people illegal.
(24:39):
Yes, I certainly was deeplyinvolved in what we sometimes
think is the true beginnings ofthe entire civil rights movement.
When I became first lady.
And I knew I could not be just a cardboardfirst lady that has to look fine and well
dressed and glamorous because I couldnever do that no matter how hard I tried.
(25:01):
Or hosting banquets and parties andstuff, I had no experience with that.
But getting involved with individualpeople for causes and issues that
really matter in this country.
And , Franklin shared these valueswith me and these same ideals and same
desire to make a difference in thiscountry when he had this wonderful
concept of a New Deal to help liftus out of the Great Depression.
(25:24):
I always felt it was my job tomake certain that this New Deal
was a fair deal for everyone inthis country, not just for me.
Just white men.
And so among the population, theminorities, particularly the Negro
population, didn't enjoy nearlythe same protections or the same
opportunities or the same rights thatwhite people were taking for granted.
(25:46):
It was my friend, , Mary McLeod Bassoon,who was a highly educated scholar, And
very talented, an educator who was part ofa White House Commission on Civil Rights.
And she is the one who opened upmy eyes to the horrors that were
part of lynching and how prevalentthis crime was in the South.
(26:09):
And it is very difficult for anyof us to imagine that there were
no specific laws against lynching.
There were no anti lynching laws.
And lynching was much more.
much more than the actof the hanging itself.
It involves sometimes whole communities.
And so it was Mary McLeod Bethune whoactually showed me the photographs
(26:29):
and the letters and introduced meto some of the victims families.
And so it was then, yes, that weembraced that cause to push through
Congress anti lynching laws.
And even though Franklinwas equally horrified.
He sometimes felt that hishands were somewhat tied.
He always accused me of tryingto make these changes too
rapidly and to move too quickly.
(26:49):
I, we were always great partners.
He was more of the politicianand I was the activist.
And he always was careful to court me.
The cooperation and the supportof the Southern Delegates.
And so there were all of the SouthernDelegates in Congress who were very
much against any kind of anti lynchinglaws because very often these practices
(27:14):
involve elected officials or prominentcitizens in some of these cities.
And so Franklin was a little bittorn because he was afraid of losing
that kind of support in Congress.
And so it took a very long time.
But I can say finally, yes, , weput those laws into place.
In fact, I will tell you one thing aboutMary McLeod Batoon, who I learned so much
(27:37):
from and we became the dearest of friends.
In fact, I think that she was the bestfriend I had that was actually my own age.
And she would come to the White Houseoften for meetings and conferences
and sessions with the President.
And I was so excited when she came.
Sometimes she would just cometo have tea or lunch with me.
And when she arrived at theWhite House, I would always
(27:57):
greet her as women very often do.
You greet your friends with ahug and sometimes you give your
friends a little peck on the cheek.
And I had heard that Mary was comingto the White House and I went out
on the front veranda to greet her.
And as she arrived, she came out ofthe the limousine and came up the step.
I threw my arms around her and I gaveher such a hug and a kiss on the cheek.
I was so happy to see her.
(28:18):
And all around were photographers.
. They were all flashing pictures.
Me embracing Mary Bethune.
And the next day, the headlinesin the newspapers read, Mrs.
Roosevelt is kissing Negro women.
And that is true.
And that is when J.
Edgar Hoover, who was in chargeof the FBI at that time, that is
(28:39):
when, I've been called very manythings, but I've been called, one of
the worst things was a pervert, J.
Edgar Hoover called me a pervert andstarted an FBI file on me as a pervert.
pervert and is a degenerate and becauseof some of the other programs that I
advocated even as first lady called mea Socialist and a communist and you know
Tony that FBI file on a person Dangerousto the government Eleanor Roosevelt my
(29:06):
file was thicker than any other file atthat time And that's true, and I, actually
right now I'm kind of proud of that,
did you have some run inswith Hoover prior to this?
By the way, just to be clear,Edgar Hoover was the person
that started the CIA, I think.
Is that right?
(29:27):
Yes, that's true.
And so, you were public enemy number one?
Pretty much, yeah, I had the largest file.
He also called me a subversive,just because I was engaged in
all of these activities, these unAmerican activities, like fighting
for the rights of women fighting forminorities trying to help establish
a , National Youth Administration.
(29:48):
Because remember these years when wewere first in office was the years
of the Depression and the New Deal.
So, And the National Youth Administrationwas a program designed to find ways to
keep our young people back in schoolor in a job and for the government to
step in and help them achieve that.
Because if you're afraid of communism,you would much rather have your young
(30:09):
people working or being educated thanyou would standing in a food line.
And yet he called that socialismor government overreach and such.
And so I was already onhis radar then, I believe.
, I developed a very thick skin becauseI received very much criticism and
ghastly , political cartoons of me tomake me look as hideous as possible
(30:30):
and as a crazy woman as possible.
And yet I, I've learned that youalways just have to follow your
heart because no matter what youdo, you'll be criticized anyway.
Yeah.
Ian.
I didn't have to worry aboutthose southern delegates
like, like poor Franklin did.
I was able to be my own personand to let those kinds of
insults just fly off my back.
(30:51):
. I want to tell you one storyabout being called names.
Because people always madefun of the way that I looked.
From my mother calling megranny, from grandmother Hall
calling me an ugly duckling.
I'd also been always called unattractive.
Okay.
And then as First Lady, I would callvery much worse, as I just described.
And I remember once during thetime in our first or second term,
I believe it was our second term,I was very flattered that I heard a
(31:14):
rose was going to be named after me.
And I thought finally, someonefinds some beauty that's
going to name a rose after me.
And I was very excited untilI read the description of the
rose in the garden catalog.
The rose said, the description ofthe rose said, Not very good in a
bed, much better up against the wall.
(31:34):
So I hope you keep that storyto yourself, Tony, because I
know , it's a little bit edgy.
That is a little racy for sure.
We'll keep that one between you and me.
That sounds fine.
I probably would appreciate that.
I don't need any more bad publicity.
That is for certain.
, I don't know how youever get bad publicity.
It just amazes me that Hoover, forexample, has this huge file on you.
How does he not look at all thisgood that you're doing and see,
(31:56):
hey, this is a person that justcares about, , people in general.
. I am wondering you've mentionedFranklin several times President
Roosevelt, when he began aspresident we were already in the great
depression for a couple years, correct?
Yes, he was elected in 1932 and of coursethe stock market crashed in 1929 he had
(32:17):
been serving as governor of new yorksince 1928 and as I stated I had the
opportunities to get involved in a lotof Other issues during the 1920s because
franklin was recovering in 1921 we wereat a home in Campobello, Canada, where we
vacationed often with our five children.
Louis Howe, his advisor, was also there.
(32:38):
And Franklin was always very robust,and for many of the flaws that he
might have had in his characterhe was always a very good father.
And he was in the cold water up, upin Canada , frolicking in the waters
with his children when he was suddenlystricken with, Excruciating pain in
his limbs and had difficulty breathing,and it came on so incredibly suddenly.
(32:59):
And our sons tried to drag him out of thewater and up to the cabin where we were
staying and none of us knew what to do.
We didn't know how to help him, andthey called in doctors, and we called
in different professionals and suchbecause he was unable to move at all.
And it took several days untilFranklin was diagnosed with infantile
paralysis, which we all know is polio.
(33:22):
There was no vaccine for that diseaseat the time, and there was no cure.
And so he was looking ata life of being paralyzed.
My mother in law, who was alwaysin control of everything in our
household, said, well, that is theend of Franklin's story from now on.
He will retire as a gentleman , inthe countryside, and I will be
the one who will take care of him.
(33:43):
Sounds like a handful.
Well she truly was and ask me thatagain because I will go back and even
back up a little bit what our courtshipand marriage was like in our early
life with Sarah always in the picture.
At this point in time.
Sarah announced that she was goingto take on the full time care of
Franklin, and I had always been timid.
I would always defer to Sarah.
I would always try so very hardto make concessions because I so
(34:07):
desperately wanted our family to work.
I had never experienced a familybefore, and I knew that a family takes
compromise and unconditional love andsuch, but finally, at that moment,
after all those years of living underSarah's thumb, I finally told her no.
I said, Franklin.
It's too much to offer to this country.
He had already lost the vice presidencyin 1920, this was just one year later, so
(34:31):
his political aspirations were not gone.
And Louis Howe also recognized inFranklin the potential to be a great
leader in this country, a leader withheart and compassion for all Americans.
So I said, no, he will not retire.
And Louis Howe and I and the nurses, 24hours a day, seven days a week, worked
by massaging Franklin's arms and legs,trying to get those muscles to work
(34:54):
again until he was finally able touse his arms and regain his breathing.
It took him several years until 1928to recover in Warm Springs, Georgia.
And that is when Louis Howe toldme that I had to be the eyes.
And the ears and the legs ofFranklin during the 1920s to
(35:15):
keep that Roosevelt name alive.
And that is also one of the reasonswhy I did what I did during those
years while Franklin was recovering.
You know, he never didrecover the use of his legs.
, it seems somewhat remarkable.
That , very few knew how serioushis condition really was.
And the press was so respectfuland cooperative that they never
(35:35):
photographed Franklin being carriedfrom his wheelchair to the podium,
where they would strap on leg bracesso that he could stand strong and erect
at the podium and give his speeches.
And then when he was finished,the cameras would go off again.
And those aides and his staff wouldcome in and carry him back to his
(35:58):
wheelchair and take him back home.
I've never heard thatyou , needed to be his legs.
And I can see that now because it'shard to imagine him moving forward.
In fact, there wouldn't have been a wayfor him to move forward and do all the
good that he did had you not been there.
Well, we were absolutelywonderful, effective.
(36:20):
And even though I had felt betrayedby some of the things that happened
a few years earlier, and betrayedby him several times during the
years that we were together.
Well, that's really the nextquestion that I was going to ask you.
, after the two of you had six children,, just a couple of years after that,
(36:40):
that he ends up , in this relationshipwhere he's unfaithful, and it doesn't
seem like that fazed you at all.
Well, it did faze me, it did faze me,and I had probably more difficulty
really talking about it when I wasyounger, and the pain was so raw.
I had tried to get along and do everythingthat Sarah wished, because Franklin
(37:03):
did not want to upset his mother.
My parents had warned me of that aboutFranklin, even before we married,
that he was a bit of a mama's boy.
And they told me that the FD andFDR stood for Feather Duster.
And he would never stand up for me.
But yet I, as I said, I wasdesperate to have a family.
And so I did everything that I could tokeep that family strong and together.
(37:24):
And yes, there was a time whenwe were very much in love.
When I returned from Allenswood, andI came back to New York because my
grandmother summoned me for comingout parties and such, and I never
wanted to come out of anywhere.
I was quite content at Allenswood, butI could not say no to Grandmother Hall.
But it's the same bowls and all ofthe events and the social things that
(37:45):
I attended when I would make my wayback to those soup kitchens and those
shantytowns in New York to care for thepeople there the same way my father did.
Inevitably, I also ran into Franklin,my fifth cousin once removed, and
he also had an interest in makinghimself useful in those sections of
the city where people were hungry.
(38:08):
Or people were in need of homes and such.
And we would bump into each otherat the soup kitchens or on the
different committees or such.
And that is, I think when we really fellin love when we shared that same passion.
So initially when you firststarted dating or courting, this
was not an arranged marriage.
, there was a seriousconnection between you two.
(38:28):
I'll tell you the very firsttime , my uncle Teddy had family
reunions and such very often.
And so I would.
Sometimes see Franklin on occasionas children, but there was one time
when I was at my grandmother's home,Grandmother Hall's home, and my Aunt
Pussy, and that was truly her name,Aunt Pussy, who had called me the ugly
duckling of the family, thought thatat age 14 I was finally old enough
(38:51):
to attend her annual Christmas party.
They had a big ballroom inmy grandmother's mansion.
And I had never.
Into a party before in my life and I wasso excited and I allowed my aunt pussy
and my grandmother to dress me and Theycurled my hair in big ringlets and they
put white bows in my hair and a whiteFrock that was full of ruffles and white
(39:12):
stockings that ended up in , white shoeswith giant buckles on them and such.
And I was all ruffles in bows and Ithought I looked quite fine until I
opened the doors to that ballroom.
And when I opened thedoors to that ballroom.
And I saw all the sophisticated youngwomen in long, elegant ballgowns,
(39:33):
waltzing across the floor, handsomeyoung men in school uniforms or
tuxedos and such, and suddenly they allstopped, and they all looked at me, and
I could hear them gigglingand see them pointing at me.
And finally I looked down at myself and Irealized how ridiculous I really looked.
(39:54):
, I backed up against the wall and triedto actually make myself invisible.
I didn't know where to run or what to do.
And I don't know how long I stoodup against that wall when suddenly
I was amazed that someone wasactually approaching me and I could
see by his feet it was a young man.
And he put out his hand.
Inviting me to dance, and thatis when I finally looked up into
(40:18):
the face of my fifth cousin,once removed, Franklin Roosevelt.
He was the only one kind enough toeven acknowledge me at that party,
and I will never forget that.
And remarkably, when I was returningfrom Allenswood, three, four years
later, who would I meet on a train backto New York, but Franklin once again,
(40:43):
and by this time, I was 19 years old.
And Franklin almost didn't recognizeme because I was a changed woman after
being with Madame Sylvester for thoseyears and I'd been to places and I
had ideas and I had read, oh, so manybooks and we talked and we talked and
became reacquainted until his mother,Sarah, missed him and came looking for
him on the train and she was very upsetthat he had neglected her for so long.
(41:07):
And into Franklin uh, Back and forth,once we were at New York, at the social
events, yes, but also in the city andalso at very many of these agencies that
were dedicated to helping the poor people.
She became very upset because I wasnowhere attractive enough or sophisticated
enough for her son, Franklin.
She was a widow.
She had been a widow for ten yearsand she always dressed in black.
(41:29):
And Franklin Was her only son.
He tried to bribe him with trips toEurope and such to break up with me.
When we announced that we were tobe engaged, he tried everything that
she did to squelch that relationship,but it didn't work at that time.
We were very much in love.
And we were married in 1905 bymy uncle, president Theodore
(41:50):
Roosevelt.
Theodore Roosevelt married you to
Theodore Roosevelt.
Yes.
Theodore Roosevelt married us.
And of course, Franklin and hismother were from the Hyde Park
Roosevelts, and we were the OysterBay Roosevelt, and he was president.
I had no father to give me away, andFranklin had always been very kind
to me when I was a young girl, andhe was to marry us, and he was going
to be in New York anyway that day.
(42:11):
It was St.
Patrick's Day in New York City, andit might sound very glamorous, but I
will tell you, I was never the centerof attention, even at my own wedding,
because all the guests were much moreinterested in President Roosevelt being
at that wedding than they were to see me.
Or Franklin.
And I do remember that on our honeymoon,I wrote my mother in law every single day.
(42:35):
And I begged her, I said, Ijust hope that someday you will
come to love me just a little.
And when we returned from ourhoneymoon, Sarah, as a wedding gift,
had purchased a town home for me.
for me and for Franklinright in Hyde Park.
And she purchased one forherself right next door.
And actually, Tony, on every singlefloor, there were doors that connected
(42:59):
so that Sarah could go back andforth as she pleased on every floor.
We ate all of our dinners together,all of our meals together.
Franklin would sit at the head of thetable and she would sit at the other head.
There were two beautiful wing chairsby the fireplace in the den and one
was for Franklin and one was for Sarah.
And she had chosen all of the furniture,all of the linens, all of the silver,
(43:20):
hired all of the help, and she had doneeverything the way that she wanted it.
And when I thought I wanted to justhave a little bit of that space that
was my very own, I was discouragedbecause we could not upset Mama.
I will go one more further, if you bearwith me, because I also just need to
state her influence on our entire family.
(43:40):
You know, I did have a first child, Anna,and yet I had no idea how to be a mother.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'd never experiencedthat kind of love or care.
And so I did what any new mothermight do who was feeling insecure,
and I read a lot of books.
And I read that a newborn baby reallycan benefit from some good fresh air.
(44:01):
And so I took baby Anna and Iswaddled her up and I put her in
what we called then baby cages.
I think now you might call them abassinet or such, but I put her in this
little baby cage and I knew she neededfresh air, so I hung it out the window.
Wow.
And the only problem with that,now looking back It's that it was
in March, so it was rather chillyand it was on the third floor.
(44:24):
And so when some of the neighborsbegan to call the authorities that
there's a baby hanging out of the thirdfloor window that is when Sarah said,
Alright, from now on you've proventhat you don't know how to be a mother.
From now on I will take overall of the child rearing.
Wow.
And she did.
Even when our four sons were born,and she took over the child rearing,
she purchased all their clothes, chosetheir tutors and their schools, and
(44:46):
decided which toys they should, all thediscipline, everything was up to Sarah.
Roosevelt was totally
okay with all that?
Well, don't forget what myfriend had warned me about.
He was a bit of a mama's boy and hisaspirations and his interest, his
focus was on something much greater.
I mean, he was getting into politics.
was not a very successful attorney andso he thought he should go into politics.
(45:08):
He was a state senator for a whileand then appointed assistant secretary
of the Navy once the war broke out.
But it was my son, James,actually, who told me Sarah.
I had said to James and to Franklinand the other boys that I'm your
real mother, Sarah, only bore you.
And so, With that I was always, andthis is a regret of mine, that I really
(45:31):
didn't know my children as children ever.
, she was raising them.
And I was involved in all of these otherthings, but always trying to be useful in
somewhere else if I wasn't needed at home.
In fact, Sarah was most happywhen I wasn't at home, when I
was off doing something else.
When Franklin was Assistant Secretary ofthe Navy during World War I, when There
(45:52):
were a lot of social obligations for himbecause they were based in Washington, D.
C.
and then he was sent overseas,but very often I was still very
insecure and uncomfortable inthose kinds of social situations.
I always felt like that girl inthe white ruffly dress that people
were laughing at and snickering at.
And so when I was either expectingchildren or I had children at home, I
(46:14):
very often turned down his invitations toattend some of those functions with him.
And I encouraged him then to goahead and go with someone else so
that he would have a companion.
When he traveled overseas duringWorld War I, and the war was wrapping
up there, , he sent a telegram thathe was going to be returning home.
He wasn't feeling well, we thinkhe had a bit of a pandemic.
Blue, that was going around at that time,his suitcases arrived before he did.
(46:39):
And trying my hardest to be a dutifulwife, I thought he would appreciate it
if I unpacked those suitcases for him.
And that is when, unpacking thosesuitcases, out tumbled a little
package of letters tied in blue ribbon.
And they were love letters.
Those were the loveletters with Lucy Mercer.
(47:01):
. My social secretary, who I had trusted.
who knew every intimate detailabout me and about Franklin.
And so blindly, I had encouraged herto often attend some of these functions
with Franklin when I was unable or notfeeling confident enough to do that.
And it had been going on foryears right under my nose.
And it seemed then, it was, no, Idon't, I felt like the world, my
(47:23):
world collapsed on me that day.
Everything, fell apart.
Everything that I thought wasreal turned out to be a lie.
And the hurt that even made itmore, more intensified was that
so many people knew about it.
And I was the only onewho seemingly did not.
Did his mother know about it?
I don't think she knewabout it at that time.
But my own children, Anna knew about it.
(47:44):
And my cousin AliceRoosevelt knew about it.
And it seemed very many peoplewho were in and out of that
social circle knew about it.
. What was Sarah's reaction about this?
Sarah was mortified.
And she stood up and she said there willbe no divorce in the Roosevelt family.
She absolutely forbid it.
Now Sarah controlled verymuch of the Roosevelt fortune.
(48:06):
And she threatened to cut Franklinoff completely financially.
, I offered Franklin a divorce.
I felt if he truly loved her, andit was very difficult sometimes
for me to handle these intenseemotional relationships, romantic
relationships, I've always struggled.
And yet it was Sarah who put her footdown and said there will be no divorce.
And people who supported Franklinalso, like Louis Howe, warned him
(48:30):
that a divorce in that time wouldhave ruined his political career.
And so he promised neverto see Lucy Mercer again.
And we reconciled.
And by that time we alreadyhad our five children.
Did he
follow through with that?
Well, that is a remarkable question.
We were never truly as men and wivesagain in the true sense of the word.
(48:53):
But we built a sense of trustand partnership through all those
years as governor and when he wasserving as president and such.
And yet, when I received thetelegram that Franklin had
passed in Warm Springs, Georgia.
He had been feeling very ill,polio, and in the stress of all of
his work and four terms in office.
He was elected for the fourth time thathe was suffering and not physically well.
(49:15):
He had gone to Warm Springs torecover and that is where I received
the telegram that he had passed.
And when I rushed there, Anna was with himand she reluctantly also shared that Lucy
Mercer was also with him when he died.
Thank you.
And then again, the ultimate betrayal,because not only had he been in contact,
she had married and had a family, butshe always came back to Franklin and Anna
(49:39):
and some of the other children had knownthat this relationship had continued.
But if you weren't really closewith them and they were really
close with him, I guess you couldsee why they would keep his secret.
And they truly loved their father.
And I think it was Anna who tried toexplain to me that that Franklin was.
In some ways, very needy himself,and people always were, he was very
(50:01):
social, and he was always the lifeof the party and such, and people
were always wanting to , have accessto him because of his power and his
influence and such, and she said, Annatold me that He just needed someone
to love him completely intentionallyand just for himself, and who he was.
(50:22):
. As a man, not as the most powerfulperson in the world, for four terms.
That is exactly right.
That is exactly right.
That helped me reconcile withhis behavior, his choices and even
the choices that my children madeto protect him and in a way not
telling me was also their goal.
There's a fire to protect me.
Wow.
(50:42):
Ellen horror was morepatient than I would ever be.
Sara Roosevelt was a handful.
Really it is astounding with peoplelike Sarah in her life and her husband
betraying her that she was able to remainfocused and do all the good that she did.
In the next episode, she'llcontinue to talk about the
obstacles she had to overcome onher quest to be useful at all times
(51:02):
As well as the cost ofdedicating her life to her work.
I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribed now,and we'll see you at the next episode
of the calling history podcastwith part two of Eleanor Roosevelt.
I'm Tony Dean.
And today we'll be calling historyto speak with Eleanor Roosevelt.
She'll be answering our call in 1961.
After the recent election of presidentKennedy, Eleanor Roosevelt was an
extraordinary woman that spent herlife protecting some and helping others
rise above their perceived station.
She was a civil rights activiststood up for child labor laws
(00:51):
toward the battlefields of world wartwo to raise the morale of the troops.
The list of her good deeds isendless yet, despite all of her
accomplishments and her commitment toservice, she was orphaned at 10 and
raised by her grandmother that wouldn'tlet her play with children's toys.
She was constantly insulted because ofher looks and yet found a way to rise
(01:12):
above it all in to this day is listedas America's number one first lady, even
though she would occasionally hang ababy out a third story window, I suppose
none of us are perfect at everything.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellowhistory, lovers, and women with
driver's licenses everywhere.
I give you Eleanor Roosevelt.
Hello, is that you, Mrs.
(01:33):
Roosevelt?
Yes, this is Mrs.
Roosevelt speaking.
What?
Mrs.
Roosevelt, I am so excitedto speak with you today.
My name is Tony Dean and I'm talking toyou from the future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding iscalled a smartphone and it's quite a
bit different and more advanced thanthe phones that you have in your time.
(01:53):
And it actually makes thisconversation possible.
It also allows me to share a recordof our conversation with people around
the world so that those that don't.
about this incredible contributionthat you've made to your country
and your world, so that theywould have a chance to hear that.
And I was hoping that I could ask yousome questions today, but before I do, I
(02:15):
understand this is a strange introduction.
Can I answer any questionsthat you may have first?
Well, I don't think so.
I'm rather flabbergasted by the ideathat you're actually calling from
the future to speak with me, and I'malso perhaps a little bit intimidated
by the idea of a Smart phone.
I'm certainly familiar with conversationson my own telephone, but I just
hope I can live up to the smartaspect of it and keep up with you.
(02:39):
But thank you again.
I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Well, you're going tokeep up with it just fine.
In fact, the problem that all theother people in the world have,
even in our time, is keeping upwith you, with all of the things
that you've done and accomplished.
Like, it just seems like you havethis Never ending amount of energy
(02:59):
towards causes that really matter.
And I guess, one of the things Iwanted to ask you right away is that,
is it true that you were The firstlady to have a driver's license.
Is that correct?
Well, that is certainly true.
And I, I always made it my goal actuallyto be a very different kind of first
lady because being a first lady issomething that I never aspired to.
(03:22):
In fact, I actually dreaded it.
So yes, I suppose I was the first lady.
First Lady to drive her owncar and probably quite a
list of other things, too.
Makes me proud to say that I was avery different kind of First Lady.
What is the year right now in your time?
Well, we're in 1961, and I'm very happy tosay that despite my age into my 70s, I am
(03:45):
still making certain that I am active andalways trying to be useful, and that is
what I've always tried to do, I believethat Once you stop being useful and once
you stop being of service to others,it's certainly when you begin to die.
So even though my children tellme that it's time for you to slow
down, Mother, I refuse to becausethere still is just so much to do.
(04:08):
Why would they even tryto tell you to slow down?
At this point, with you being in your70s, haven't they given up trying to
tell you to back off a little bit?
No, I'm not going to back off.
And that certainly is very true.
And I think by now, once I say thatthey stopped even arguing with me.
And I would like to think that in someways they are even very proud of me.
I still have the honor of workingclosely with president John F.
(04:29):
Kennedy, and he actually askedme to chair a commission on the
status of women in this country.
I had the great pleasure ofmeeting Martin Luther King at a
speech that he gave just this.
So I'm still very active in thatcivil rights movement, and I am so
encouraged as I enter my later years.
(04:49):
I'm so encouraged by the fact that we havethese great leaders in our country taking
us forward into the next generation.
So tell me, you'd mentioned Kennedy.
So Kennedy is having you chair someorganization for women's rights.
What does that look like?
And I'm curious what kindof person Kennedy is.
You know, it took me quite awhile to warm up to John F.
(05:10):
Kennedy.
I, I wasn't a particular Um, andI also had a run in or two with
Cardinal Spelman over Catholicschools and public funding and such.
And so I was a bit skeptical aboutthis young man of privilege and
Catholic ascending into this positionas President of the United States.
(05:31):
And yet, now that I know John Kennedy,Well, I see in him something that I
loved about my husband, Franklin, andthat's the ability to connect to other
people, to be able to communicate, and tolisten and to feel their needs and their
sufferings, their longings, and theirdifferent requirements from their leaders,
I like to sometimes even believe thatit's almost incorporating some of the new
(05:55):
deal values that Franklin had for thiscountry, that kind of vision, in John F.
Kennedy.
And so , I'm very proud tohave that privilege to know
him and to work with him.
And what he asked me to do was,I complained because he was
not putting enough women inpositions in his administration.
And I submitted a letter, I believeactually it was three pages, a list of
(06:16):
all the different positions I felt thathe could fill with very responsible
and accomplished women in this countryto just make that administration
a little bit more well balanced.
And actually he took noticeand he was listening to me.
So he , appointed me to be on thiscommission to lead a study into the
status of women in this country right now.
And if we really are achievingthe equality that we've
(06:36):
been , after for so very long.
What is the status of women in your time?
, women have been voting for about 40 years.
What are some of the inequalitiesthat you're unhappy with?
Well, we certainly aren't representedin higher levels of administration,
whether it's government or lawfirms or big business and such.
There is a lack of women visibleand active in those kinds
(06:58):
of higher level positions.
And certainly there are very manywomen who still uh, frustrated by
their difficulty in making their wayin, in any career and being recognized
for the very hard work that they do.
There are still too many women whoare expected only to be secretaries or
aides and such, instead of taking on theleadership roles that they so deserve.
Other than that, certainly we enjoy theright to vote, but we also have great
(07:21):
work to do in educating women so thatwhen they use their vote, they use it
wisely and that they choose the verybest leaders that this country needs.
, speaking of the the right to vote.
I think you were involved or you areinvolved in, you're going to have
to forgive me, but I can't rememberthe name of this organization.
It's the something league of women voters.
Is that an organization you're
involved with?
(07:42):
Yes.
I was always an activeparticipant and member advocates
of the league of women voters.
You know, , I didn't become suffragistuntil much later, until I actually
was pretty much forced into takingon a stronger role in the community
and in social issues, even though Ialready had a husband and children.
However, I think I really became moreactive in the League of Women Voters when
(08:04):
Franklin Ran for Vice President of theUnited States in 1920 with James Cox.
They were the democratic candidatesfor the presidency, and that
was right after World War I.
And it was also the very first yearthat women had the right to vote.
And unfortunately there arevery many of us who feel that
women squandered that vote.
(08:26):
By voting instead of Mr.
Cox and Franklin, they voted forWarren Harding, who happened to be very
handsome, and he looked like a filmstar, a movie star, and the women were
attracted to his appearance and his looksrather than they were his capabilities
and his qualifications, and he turnedout to be one of the worst presidents
that this country has ever seen.
So I made it a goal of mine.
(08:46):
To educate women, again, about theresponsibility that comes with the
right to vote, and making sure that theywould be able to use that vote wisely.
And so the League of Women Voters NewYork Women's Democratic Committee, I
worked on all of those in all of thoseagencies throughout most of the 20s, when
I had that decade to kind of find, again,other things to do to make myself useful.
(09:11):
You're welcome.
So in 1920, so that was thevery first time that you voted.
Is that correct?
Oh, yes.
That is correct.
Yes, that is correct.
Yeah.
And what was going on around that time?
, is this where you dedicated a lot ofyour time at that particular moment?
I dedicated some of my time.
At that time, the suffragists hadalready been working for that vote
(09:34):
for, Probably 50 years, and it tookthem that long to finally gain it,
and again, women were allowed to vote,but very few did, and very few were
making what we thought intelligentdecisions when they were using that vote.
When I was married, and I hadyoung children, And I will tell you
more about my mother in law later,perhaps, in this conversation.
(09:54):
She pretty much took over runningthe household for me, and I wanted
to please her, and Franklin did notwant to challenge her or stand up
to her when she overstepped a bit inour household and in our marriage.
But it also forced me to go out andmake myself useful in other venues.
So, yes, I did work for women's rights.
And I worked for those Democraticcommittees, and I worked for
(10:15):
the League of Women Voters.
But there were also so many otherthings in this country that needed
the attention of those that had thetime and the willingness to volunteer.
This was right after World War Iended, and it was a horrific war.
And there were so many men and somewomen who returned from that war not only
physically wounded, but also shell shockedfrom the horrors that they saw there.
(10:38):
So I volunteered at the Red Cross andtook care of some of those young men,
those heroes really, who were not gettingthe kind of care that they deserve.
And so I became active in also workingfor the rights and the care for veterans.
There were children in 1920who were working in factories
instead of going to school.
There were no child labor laws andsome of these children were as young
(10:59):
as eight years old and working infactories on assembly lines till
their little fingers were even bloody.
And so I also became activethen during those years working
to establish child labor laws.
There were so many inequalities andpoor conditions for the veterans too.
So it, I would go.
Into veterans hospitals and make sure thatthey were receiving the care that they
(11:22):
deserved and that the places were clean.
I would open all the cupboardsand I would look under the
beds, and I always said that.
You cannot expect anyone tosleep in a bed that you're not
ready to sleep in yourself.
I, there were terrible conditionsfor men in our country who were
trying so desperately to make aliving by working in the mines.
And oh, those mines were very unsafeconditions and there was no laws in place
(11:47):
made those working conditions acceptable.
So I had my own pair of overalls and I'dput on my overalls and I'd climb down
into those mines and inspect them myself.
They were dangerous placesfor men to be working.
I made sure that I took those back tothe committees and very often these
committees were made up of women,who saw that those laws were put into
(12:07):
place to protect the Americans inthis country who are working so hard.
During those years, I also, inaddition to these other courses,
I also started my own school.
I started the Todd HunterSchool because I've always been
such a proponent of education.
And I'll tell you whatinspired me to do that.
You know, I had neverattended school before.
I tragically lost my parentswhen I was only 10 years old.
(12:31):
I was orphaned at age 10.
And I had never attended school.
I was always privately tutored.
And when my mother and my fatherboth passed away, I was sent
to live with my grandmother.
Grandmother who?
It was my mother's mother, and shewas very stern and very strict.
She probably was unlike mostgrandmothers that you have ever
(12:52):
come in contact with, Tony.
She always kept the window shades drawn,and it was very dark, and there was
no talking or laughing at dinnertime,and she didn't believe in toys.
She was very religious, and soI remember my only comfort in
being with books and with reading.
She had four grown daughters.
(13:13):
Children that also lived with her,unmarried, and they were also fond
of guns and of alcohol and it wasa very unpleasant environment for
a young girl to be growing up in.
You know, sometimes I would cry becauseI would so miss, especially my father.
And grandmother Hall would say, we'llhave none of that kind of emotion
(13:34):
or those kinds of outbursts here.
If you're going to cry, you might aswell go in your room and cry alone.
She brought in a tutorfor me, the tutor, I know.
And she brought in a tutor forme, her name was Madeline, who had
a bit of a sadistic side to her.
And she took great delight inpulling my braids and making me cry.
I don't think grandmother Hall,I really knew how to handle
(13:56):
me when I was growing up.
And so it wasn't until I was age13 or 14 that she finally decided
to send me to a proper school.
I had never been with children before.
I was afraid of the dark.
I was afraid of dogs and of horses.
And I was mostly afraid that noone would ever really care for me.
(14:17):
So she sent me as far away as shepossibly could, all the way across the
Atlantic to Allenswood School in England.
This does not sound likea very good childhood.
, this is what you just toldme from what I'm hearing.
So mean grandmother, super strict, notoys, but lots of alcohol and guns, and
(14:37):
now we're sick of you, go to England?
I mean, is that kind ofwhat you're telling me?
That's pretty
much what I'm telling you.
And if I back up even further, , , I'llexplain it to my parents, Anna and Elliot
Roosevelt , of the Oyster Bay, RooseveltTeddy Roosevelt was my uncle and, but
the Oyster Bay Roosevelt were verywealthy and popular in social circles.
And my mother was perhaps the mostbeautiful woman that I had ever seen.
(15:01):
And so you can imagine her disappointmentwhen she took a look at me.
When I was a child, Toni, when I was ababy, I was red and wrinkled like a prune.
And my mother promptly gaveme the nickname of Granny.
And she never called me anything else.
And do you know from that time, and soin some ways I think that she influenced
me because she really did not even wantme to approach her when she had a second
(15:25):
child, my baby brother Hall, she wouldhold him in her lap and she would say,
Granny, you just go up in the cornerthen and read a book and leave us alone.
The only time my mother would allow meto come close to her and approach her was
when she would get terrible migraines.
And then she would summon me to herside and I would massage her temples.
Until her headaches went away.
(15:47):
And so, I think, even as a verylittle girl, I always knew that
my life was to be one of service.
My own mother told me, you willnever be attractive, Granny, so you
might as well learn good manners.
But let me tell you about my father.
Wow.
Because my father, though,he did not call me Granny.
My father called me hisbeautiful little Nell.
And when he came home from safaris orfrom travels and such, he would sweep me
(16:10):
up in his arms and he would say, don'tlisten to what your mother tells you.
Because if you have truth andloyalty stamped upon your face, all
the world will be attracted to you.
My father was a Roosevelt, certainly,and when we would have large family
dinners and such, he would always say,we cannot truly enjoy this banquet or all
(16:32):
of these delicacies, knowing that thereare people in New York who are hungry.
And so after every banquet or feastor celebratory dinner, my father
would be the one who would gather upall of the leftovers or spare items
that we had in the kitchen, and hewould go down to the slums of New
York, and he would take me with him.
There were people there, so manyliving in cardboard boxes, starving.
(16:55):
We would go to the soup kitchens andthere my father would share what we
could with those that were in need.
Those were probably some of the happiesttimes I ever had with my father.
That's where the service came from.
That is absolutely wherethe service came from.
And the joy that one gets whenyou're helping others and you're
sharing the blessings that you have.
(17:17):
It seems to me that'skind of a Roosevelt thing.
The Roosevelts have a historyfor this, , I'm assuming his
parents taught him the same thing.
Well that, yes, and when I talked to youa little bit more about our courtship
and such, I was also just so impressedand moved by the fact that Franklin did
share very many of those same values.
But what I wanted to add, before Ifinish with my parents, and I'm sorry
(17:39):
if these stories are going to get verylong, you may regret that you actually
got me on this smart phone, myfather was a Roosevelt, in that after
we would leave the soup kitchens,my father would get very thirsty.
And he would always haveto stop for one sip.
Quick drink.
And so we would go to a hotel or a tavernor a restaurant or something, and he would
(18:02):
say, Eleanor, little Nellie goes, you waithere by the door with the doorman, and
I will just be a few moments, but I justhave to have one little thing to drink.
Do you know once it was six hours later,when finally the doorman had to call
for a taxi cab to come and take me home.
And tragically, that is howmy father died only two years
(18:24):
after my mother, my father died.
from alcoholism, and that is whenI was sent to Grandmother Hall.
But when she finally sent me, whenshe finally sent me to Allenswood,
that school, , perhaps you find thisis true also, and you go through your
life, and you think back at your life,on your life, you know that there are
always people who have moved in and out,but it is only true friends that have
(18:47):
left footprints on my heart, andMadame Sylvester, the headmistress
of that school, Allenswood, inEngland, left her footprints on mine.
Somehow Madame Sylvester saw a veryfrightened and shy uh, backward
girl arrive and shy backwardgirl arrive at her school.
She said she had never really experiencedany happiness at all, and yet she helped
(19:11):
me to understand that no one can makeyou feel inferior without your consent.
She said later that she saw in me apurity of heart and a nobility of spirit.
She recognized something in me anddo you know what else she told me?
Which kind of goes along with thelessons that I learned from my
father is Madam Vera told me that.
You could see I had never been happy orexperienced much happiness, and yet she
(19:34):
said, Happiness in itself is not a goal.
Happiness is a by product.
And it can only be achievedby a life well lived.
And that comes from With helpingothers and being of service.
It was Madame Sylvester whoawakened a curiosity in me
that I had never experienced.
(19:55):
She didn't speak about abook or she didn't lecture.
She offered us a book and sheasked what we thought of the book.
And she was always open to anexchange of all kinds of ideas.
. I still have her portraitnext to my bedside.
She always had a tradition at theschool that if you did something kind
for another one of your classmateswere encouraged to acknowledge
(20:17):
that kindness by leaving flowers.
In the dormitory room of the person whohad shown kindness or had shown care.
And I had only been there forseveral months when I would return
from my classes into my dorm room,it would be filled with flowers.
I get a little choked up when Ieven think about Madame Sylvester.
Those were certainly the threehappiest years of my life.
When my grandmother did not send forme at all for holidays and such it was
(20:41):
Madame Sylvester who took me with her.
And she took me all over Western Europe,and we would not stay at elite hotels
or eat in fancy restaurants and such,but we would go into towns and villages.
where we could be of serviceto the people that were living
there, particularly the poor.
She was involved in very many socialissues that were not only in our
(21:02):
country, but all over Europe andall over the world at that time,
and that was to making sure thateveryone had their basic needs filled.
, It would be so interesting if there was a way to have every person, every
child as they're growing up, go throughsome sort of experience like this.
, there are a lot of countries thatwill have their people serve
in the military, which I thinkthere's probably benefit to that.
(21:25):
But to have them go to poor placesand to serve people and to feed people
The world would be so much better ifeverybody had to have that experience.
I, I wonder, considering where youwere , you're at such a young age,
you're 10 years old, you're now an orphan.
You're living with your grandmotherwho has no toys and lots of guns.
(21:46):
Which just, I still can't get over that.
Well, what would have happenedif she would have just kept
you there and she wouldn't havesent you to see Madam Sylvester?
I think you're totally right , Andsupposing that it would have
a totally different outcome.
I always like to say that everythingthat happens to you, good or bad, in
your life helps to build your character.
(22:07):
And those choices that you make in thosecircumstances that you find yourself in
all build the person that you become.
So certainly if I had never had thatopportunity to meet Madame Sylvester,
I doubt very much if I would be whereI have been privileged to be today.
And I.
That is one of the reasons why Iwanted, during those years, when
I had those freedoms and thoseresources, to start a school.
(22:30):
I started the Todd Hunter Schoolin the 1920s, and believe me, when
I speak to young people today, andI love speaking to young people.
I've always believed they'recertainly our future.
It would be surprised by how many dohave that one teacher in their life,
which truly inspired them and changedthe entire course of their life.
(22:51):
And I would like to believe in ourcountry, and I think President Kennedy
is also in great support of this.
In our country, I'd like tosee programs , like the Peace
Corps, where we do just that.
Don't require.
Students are young peopleto sign up for that.
But it is an opportunity to buildthat kind of character by going
just exactly what you suggested,Tony, by going to other countries
and working with people from othercountries and in other circumstances
(23:14):
and situations and learning as muchfrom them as they can learn from us.
The whole secret just to putthem in that situation so that
they can feel what's going on.
What it's like to take somebody food thatdoesn't have food or to help give somebody
a warmth or a place to stay or somethingto drink when they don't have those things
and see that look on somebody's facewhen they're like, , , you saved my life.
(23:37):
I think that's a beautiful thought.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Great.
And it sounds like I'membracing very many causes.
I've always been much more inspired byone individual that I see in need, rather
than someone lecturing me or sending meinformation or written pieces about some
cause that they want my support for.
(23:58):
It's that one person, as you said, thatlooks you in the face, And appreciate
you and hold your hand when you're ableto share in any capacity with them.
It's that one individual that matters,which is why as First Lady, I've always
encouraged people to write me letters,and I try to have my staff and I try
to answer every single one of them.
Let me ask you about this.
(24:19):
There was one cause that Ithink that I had read about.
I don't, again I don'tknow a lot about this.
I just know a little, butwasn't there or isn't there a
bill that you were trying to.
Champion or you're involved with aboutmaking lynching black people illegal.
(24:39):
Yes, I certainly was deeplyinvolved in what we sometimes
think is the true beginnings ofthe entire civil rights movement.
When I became first lady.
And I knew I could not be just a cardboardfirst lady that has to look fine and well
dressed and glamorous because I couldnever do that no matter how hard I tried.
(25:01):
Or hosting banquets and parties andstuff, I had no experience with that.
But getting involved with individualpeople for causes and issues that
really matter in this country.
And , Franklin shared these valueswith me and these same ideals and same
desire to make a difference in thiscountry when he had this wonderful
concept of a New Deal to help liftus out of the Great Depression.
(25:24):
I always felt it was my job tomake certain that this New Deal
was a fair deal for everyone inthis country, not just for me.
Just white men.
And so among the population, theminorities, particularly the Negro
population, didn't enjoy nearlythe same protections or the same
opportunities or the same rights thatwhite people were taking for granted.
(25:46):
It was my friend, , Mary McLeod Bassoon,who was a highly educated scholar, And
very talented, an educator who was part ofa White House Commission on Civil Rights.
And she is the one who opened upmy eyes to the horrors that were
part of lynching and how prevalentthis crime was in the South.
(26:09):
And it is very difficult for anyof us to imagine that there were
no specific laws against lynching.
There were no anti lynching laws.
And lynching was much more.
much more than the actof the hanging itself.
It involves sometimes whole communities.
And so it was Mary McLeod Bethune whoactually showed me the photographs
(26:29):
and the letters and introduced meto some of the victims families.
And so it was then, yes, that weembraced that cause to push through
Congress anti lynching laws.
And even though Franklinwas equally horrified.
He sometimes felt that hishands were somewhat tied.
He always accused me of tryingto make these changes too
rapidly and to move too quickly.
(26:49):
I, we were always great partners.
He was more of the politicianand I was the activist.
And he always was careful to court me.
The cooperation and the supportof the Southern Delegates.
And so there were all of the SouthernDelegates in Congress who were very
much against any kind of anti lynchinglaws because very often these practices
(27:14):
involve elected officials or prominentcitizens in some of these cities.
And so Franklin was a little bittorn because he was afraid of losing
that kind of support in Congress.
And so it took a very long time.
But I can say finally, yes, , weput those laws into place.
In fact, I will tell you one thing aboutMary McLeod Batoon, who I learned so much
(27:37):
from and we became the dearest of friends.
In fact, I think that she was the bestfriend I had that was actually my own age.
And she would come to the White Houseoften for meetings and conferences
and sessions with the President.
And I was so excited when she came.
Sometimes she would just cometo have tea or lunch with me.
And when she arrived at theWhite House, I would always
(27:57):
greet her as women very often do.
You greet your friends with ahug and sometimes you give your
friends a little peck on the cheek.
And I had heard that Mary was comingto the White House and I went out
on the front veranda to greet her.
And as she arrived, she came out ofthe the limousine and came up the step.
I threw my arms around her and I gaveher such a hug and a kiss on the cheek.
I was so happy to see her.
(28:18):
And all around were photographers.
. They were all flashing pictures.
Me embracing Mary Bethune.
And the next day, the headlinesin the newspapers read, Mrs.
Roosevelt is kissing Negro women.
And that is true.
And that is when J.
Edgar Hoover, who was in chargeof the FBI at that time, that is
(28:39):
when, I've been called very manythings, but I've been called, one of
the worst things was a pervert, J.
Edgar Hoover called me a pervert andstarted an FBI file on me as a pervert.
pervert and is a degenerate and becauseof some of the other programs that I
advocated even as first lady called mea Socialist and a communist and you know
Tony that FBI file on a person Dangerousto the government Eleanor Roosevelt my
(29:06):
file was thicker than any other file atthat time And that's true, and I, actually
right now I'm kind of proud of that,
did you have some run inswith Hoover prior to this?
By the way, just to be clear,Edgar Hoover was the person
that started the CIA, I think.
Is that right?
(29:27):
Yes, that's true.
And so, you were public enemy number one?
Pretty much, yeah, I had the largest file.
He also called me a subversive,just because I was engaged in
all of these activities, these unAmerican activities, like fighting
for the rights of women fighting forminorities trying to help establish
a , National Youth Administration.
(29:48):
Because remember these years when wewere first in office was the years
of the Depression and the New Deal.
So, And the National Youth Administrationwas a program designed to find ways to
keep our young people back in schoolor in a job and for the government to
step in and help them achieve that.
Because if you're afraid of communism,you would much rather have your young
(30:09):
people working or being educated thanyou would standing in a food line.
And yet he called that socialismor government overreach and such.
And so I was already onhis radar then, I believe.
, I developed a very thick skin becauseI received very much criticism and
ghastly , political cartoons of me tomake me look as hideous as possible
(30:30):
and as a crazy woman as possible.
And yet I, I've learned that youalways just have to follow your
heart because no matter what youdo, you'll be criticized anyway.
Yeah.
Ian.
I didn't have to worry aboutthose southern delegates
like, like poor Franklin did.
I was able to be my own personand to let those kinds of
insults just fly off my back.
(30:51):
. I want to tell you one storyabout being called names.
Because people always madefun of the way that I looked.
From my mother calling megranny, from grandmother Hall
calling me an ugly duckling.
I'd also been always called unattractive.
Okay.
And then as First Lady, I would callvery much worse, as I just described.
And I remember once during thetime in our first or second term,
I believe it was our second term,I was very flattered that I heard a
(31:14):
rose was going to be named after me.
And I thought finally, someonefinds some beauty that's
going to name a rose after me.
And I was very excited untilI read the description of the
rose in the garden catalog.
The rose said, the description ofthe rose said, Not very good in a
bed, much better up against the wall.
(31:34):
So I hope you keep that storyto yourself, Tony, because I
know , it's a little bit edgy.
That is a little racy for sure.
We'll keep that one between you and me.
That sounds fine.
I probably would appreciate that.
I don't need any more bad publicity.
That is for certain.
, I don't know how youever get bad publicity.
It just amazes me that Hoover, forexample, has this huge file on you.
How does he not look at all thisgood that you're doing and see,
(31:56):
hey, this is a person that justcares about, , people in general.
. I am wondering you've mentionedFranklin several times President
Roosevelt, when he began aspresident we were already in the great
depression for a couple years, correct?
Yes, he was elected in 1932 and of coursethe stock market crashed in 1929 he had
(32:17):
been serving as governor of new yorksince 1928 and as I stated I had the
opportunities to get involved in a lotof Other issues during the 1920s because
franklin was recovering in 1921 we wereat a home in Campobello, Canada, where we
vacationed often with our five children.
Louis Howe, his advisor, was also there.
(32:38):
And Franklin was always very robust,and for many of the flaws that he
might have had in his characterhe was always a very good father.
And he was in the cold water up, upin Canada , frolicking in the waters
with his children when he was suddenlystricken with, Excruciating pain in
his limbs and had difficulty breathing,and it came on so incredibly suddenly.
(32:59):
And our sons tried to drag him out of thewater and up to the cabin where we were
staying and none of us knew what to do.
We didn't know how to help him, andthey called in doctors, and we called
in different professionals and suchbecause he was unable to move at all.
And it took several days untilFranklin was diagnosed with infantile
paralysis, which we all know is polio.
(33:22):
There was no vaccine for that diseaseat the time, and there was no cure.
And so he was looking ata life of being paralyzed.
My mother in law, who was alwaysin control of everything in our
household, said, well, that is theend of Franklin's story from now on.
He will retire as a gentleman , inthe countryside, and I will be
the one who will take care of him.
(33:43):
Sounds like a handful.
Well she truly was and ask me thatagain because I will go back and even
back up a little bit what our courtshipand marriage was like in our early
life with Sarah always in the picture.
At this point in time.
Sarah announced that she was goingto take on the full time care of
Franklin, and I had always been timid.
I would always defer to Sarah.
I would always try so very hardto make concessions because I so
(34:07):
desperately wanted our family to work.
I had never experienced a familybefore, and I knew that a family takes
compromise and unconditional love andsuch, but finally, at that moment,
after all those years of living underSarah's thumb, I finally told her no.
I said, Franklin.
It's too much to offer to this country.
He had already lost the vice presidencyin 1920, this was just one year later, so
(34:31):
his political aspirations were not gone.
And Louis Howe also recognized inFranklin the potential to be a great
leader in this country, a leader withheart and compassion for all Americans.
So I said, no, he will not retire.
And Louis Howe and I and the nurses, 24hours a day, seven days a week, worked
by massaging Franklin's arms and legs,trying to get those muscles to work
(34:54):
again until he was finally able touse his arms and regain his breathing.
It took him several years until 1928to recover in Warm Springs, Georgia.
And that is when Louis Howe toldme that I had to be the eyes.
And the ears and the legs ofFranklin during the 1920s to
(35:15):
keep that Roosevelt name alive.
And that is also one of the reasonswhy I did what I did during those
years while Franklin was recovering.
You know, he never didrecover the use of his legs.
, it seems somewhat remarkable.
That , very few knew how serioushis condition really was.
And the press was so respectfuland cooperative that they never
(35:35):
photographed Franklin being carriedfrom his wheelchair to the podium,
where they would strap on leg bracesso that he could stand strong and erect
at the podium and give his speeches.
And then when he was finished,the cameras would go off again.
And those aides and his staff wouldcome in and carry him back to his
(35:58):
wheelchair and take him back home.
I've never heard thatyou , needed to be his legs.
And I can see that now because it'shard to imagine him moving forward.
In fact, there wouldn't have been a wayfor him to move forward and do all the
good that he did had you not been there.
Well, we were absolutelywonderful, effective.
(36:20):
And even though I had felt betrayedby some of the things that happened
a few years earlier, and betrayedby him several times during the
years that we were together.
Well, that's really the nextquestion that I was going to ask you.
, after the two of you had six children,, just a couple of years after that,
(36:40):
that he ends up , in this relationshipwhere he's unfaithful, and it doesn't
seem like that fazed you at all.
Well, it did faze me, it did faze me,and I had probably more difficulty
really talking about it when I wasyounger, and the pain was so raw.
I had tried to get along and do everythingthat Sarah wished, because Franklin
(37:03):
did not want to upset his mother.
My parents had warned me of that aboutFranklin, even before we married,
that he was a bit of a mama's boy.
And they told me that the FD andFDR stood for Feather Duster.
And he would never stand up for me.
But yet I, as I said, I wasdesperate to have a family.
And so I did everything that I could tokeep that family strong and together.
(37:24):
And yes, there was a time whenwe were very much in love.
When I returned from Allenswood, andI came back to New York because my
grandmother summoned me for comingout parties and such, and I never
wanted to come out of anywhere.
I was quite content at Allenswood, butI could not say no to Grandmother Hall.
But it's the same bowls and all ofthe events and the social things that
(37:45):
I attended when I would make my wayback to those soup kitchens and those
shantytowns in New York to care for thepeople there the same way my father did.
Inevitably, I also ran into Franklin,my fifth cousin once removed, and
he also had an interest in makinghimself useful in those sections of
the city where people were hungry.
(38:08):
Or people were in need of homes and such.
And we would bump into each otherat the soup kitchens or on the
different committees or such.
And that is, I think when we really fellin love when we shared that same passion.
So initially when you firststarted dating or courting, this
was not an arranged marriage.
, there was a seriousconnection between you two.
(38:28):
I'll tell you the very firsttime , my uncle Teddy had family
reunions and such very often.
And so I would.
Sometimes see Franklin on occasionas children, but there was one time
when I was at my grandmother's home,Grandmother Hall's home, and my Aunt
Pussy, and that was truly her name,Aunt Pussy, who had called me the ugly
duckling of the family, thought thatat age 14 I was finally old enough
(38:51):
to attend her annual Christmas party.
They had a big ballroom inmy grandmother's mansion.
And I had never.
Into a party before in my life and I wasso excited and I allowed my aunt pussy
and my grandmother to dress me and Theycurled my hair in big ringlets and they
put white bows in my hair and a whiteFrock that was full of ruffles and white
(39:12):
stockings that ended up in , white shoeswith giant buckles on them and such.
And I was all ruffles in bows and Ithought I looked quite fine until I
opened the doors to that ballroom.
And when I opened thedoors to that ballroom.
And I saw all the sophisticated youngwomen in long, elegant ballgowns,
(39:33):
waltzing across the floor, handsomeyoung men in school uniforms or
tuxedos and such, and suddenly they allstopped, and they all looked at me, and
I could hear them gigglingand see them pointing at me.
And finally I looked down at myself and Irealized how ridiculous I really looked.
(39:54):
, I backed up against the wall and triedto actually make myself invisible.
I didn't know where to run or what to do.
And I don't know how long I stoodup against that wall when suddenly
I was amazed that someone wasactually approaching me and I could
see by his feet it was a young man.
And he put out his hand.
Inviting me to dance, and thatis when I finally looked up into
(40:18):
the face of my fifth cousin,once removed, Franklin Roosevelt.
He was the only one kind enough toeven acknowledge me at that party,
and I will never forget that.
And remarkably, when I was returningfrom Allenswood, three, four years
later, who would I meet on a train backto New York, but Franklin once again,
(40:43):
and by this time, I was 19 years old.
And Franklin almost didn't recognizeme because I was a changed woman after
being with Madame Sylvester for thoseyears and I'd been to places and I
had ideas and I had read, oh, so manybooks and we talked and we talked and
became reacquainted until his mother,Sarah, missed him and came looking for
him on the train and she was very upsetthat he had neglected her for so long.
(41:07):
And into Franklin uh, Back and forth,once we were at New York, at the social
events, yes, but also in the city andalso at very many of these agencies that
were dedicated to helping the poor people.
She became very upset because I wasnowhere attractive enough or sophisticated
enough for her son, Franklin.
She was a widow.
She had been a widow for ten yearsand she always dressed in black.
(41:29):
And Franklin Was her only son.
He tried to bribe him with trips toEurope and such to break up with me.
When we announced that we were tobe engaged, he tried everything that
she did to squelch that relationship,but it didn't work at that time.
We were very much in love.
And we were married in 1905 bymy uncle, president Theodore
(41:50):
Roosevelt.
Theodore Roosevelt married you to
Theodore Roosevelt.
Yes.
Theodore Roosevelt married us.
And of course, Franklin and hismother were from the Hyde Park
Roosevelts, and we were the OysterBay Roosevelt, and he was president.
I had no father to give me away, andFranklin had always been very kind
to me when I was a young girl, andhe was to marry us, and he was going
to be in New York anyway that day.
(42:11):
It was St.
Patrick's Day in New York City, andit might sound very glamorous, but I
will tell you, I was never the centerof attention, even at my own wedding,
because all the guests were much moreinterested in President Roosevelt being
at that wedding than they were to see me.
Or Franklin.
And I do remember that on our honeymoon,I wrote my mother in law every single day.
(42:35):
And I begged her, I said, Ijust hope that someday you will
come to love me just a little.
And when we returned from ourhoneymoon, Sarah, as a wedding gift,
had purchased a town home for me.
for me and for Franklinright in Hyde Park.
And she purchased one forherself right next door.
And actually, Tony, on every singlefloor, there were doors that connected
(42:59):
so that Sarah could go back andforth as she pleased on every floor.
We ate all of our dinners together,all of our meals together.
Franklin would sit at the head of thetable and she would sit at the other head.
There were two beautiful wing chairsby the fireplace in the den and one
was for Franklin and one was for Sarah.
And she had chosen all of the furniture,all of the linens, all of the silver,
(43:20):
hired all of the help, and she had doneeverything the way that she wanted it.
And when I thought I wanted to justhave a little bit of that space that
was my very own, I was discouragedbecause we could not upset Mama.
I will go one more further, if you bearwith me, because I also just need to
state her influence on our entire family.
(43:40):
You know, I did have a first child, Anna,and yet I had no idea how to be a mother.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'd never experiencedthat kind of love or care.
And so I did what any new mothermight do who was feeling insecure,
and I read a lot of books.
And I read that a newborn baby reallycan benefit from some good fresh air.
(44:01):
And so I took baby Anna and Iswaddled her up and I put her in
what we called then baby cages.
I think now you might call them abassinet or such, but I put her in this
little baby cage and I knew she neededfresh air, so I hung it out the window.
Wow.
And the only problem with that,now looking back It's that it was
in March, so it was rather chillyand it was on the third floor.
(44:24):
And so when some of the neighborsbegan to call the authorities that
there's a baby hanging out of the thirdfloor window that is when Sarah said,
Alright, from now on you've proventhat you don't know how to be a mother.
From now on I will take overall of the child rearing.
Wow.
And she did.
Even when our four sons were born,and she took over the child rearing,
she purchased all their clothes, chosetheir tutors and their schools, and
(44:46):
decided which toys they should, all thediscipline, everything was up to Sarah.
Roosevelt was totally
okay with all that?
Well, don't forget what myfriend had warned me about.
He was a bit of a mama's boy and hisaspirations and his interest, his
focus was on something much greater.
I mean, he was getting into politics.
was not a very successful attorney andso he thought he should go into politics.
(45:08):
He was a state senator for a whileand then appointed assistant secretary
of the Navy once the war broke out.
But it was my son, James,actually, who told me Sarah.
I had said to James and to Franklinand the other boys that I'm your
real mother, Sarah, only bore you.
And so, With that I was always, andthis is a regret of mine, that I really
(45:31):
didn't know my children as children ever.
, she was raising them.
And I was involved in all of these otherthings, but always trying to be useful in
somewhere else if I wasn't needed at home.
In fact, Sarah was most happywhen I wasn't at home, when I
was off doing something else.
When Franklin was Assistant Secretary ofthe Navy during World War I, when There
(45:52):
were a lot of social obligations for himbecause they were based in Washington, D.
C.
and then he was sent overseas,but very often I was still very
insecure and uncomfortable inthose kinds of social situations.
I always felt like that girl inthe white ruffly dress that people
were laughing at and snickering at.
And so when I was either expectingchildren or I had children at home, I
(46:14):
very often turned down his invitations toattend some of those functions with him.
And I encouraged him then to goahead and go with someone else so
that he would have a companion.
When he traveled overseas duringWorld War I, and the war was wrapping
up there, , he sent a telegram thathe was going to be returning home.
He wasn't feeling well, we thinkhe had a bit of a pandemic.
Blue, that was going around at that time,his suitcases arrived before he did.
(46:39):
And trying my hardest to be a dutifulwife, I thought he would appreciate it
if I unpacked those suitcases for him.
And that is when, unpacking thosesuitcases, out tumbled a little
package of letters tied in blue ribbon.
And they were love letters.
Those were the loveletters with Lucy Mercer.
(47:01):
. My social secretary, who I had trusted.
who knew every intimate detailabout me and about Franklin.
And so blindly, I had encouraged herto often attend some of these functions
with Franklin when I was unable or notfeeling confident enough to do that.
And it had been going on foryears right under my nose.
And it seemed then, it was, no, Idon't, I felt like the world, my
(47:23):
world collapsed on me that day.
Everything, fell apart.
Everything that I thought wasreal turned out to be a lie.
And the hurt that even made itmore, more intensified was that
so many people knew about it.
And I was the only onewho seemingly did not.
Did his mother know about it?
I don't think she knewabout it at that time.
But my own children, Anna knew about it.
(47:44):
And my cousin AliceRoosevelt knew about it.
And it seemed very many peoplewho were in and out of that
social circle knew about it.
. What was Sarah's reaction about this?
Sarah was mortified.
And she stood up and she said there willbe no divorce in the Roosevelt family.
She absolutely forbid it.
Now Sarah controlled verymuch of the Roosevelt fortune.
(48:06):
And she threatened to cut Franklinoff completely financially.
, I offered Franklin a divorce.
I felt if he truly loved her, andit was very difficult sometimes
for me to handle these intenseemotional relationships, romantic
relationships, I've always struggled.
And yet it was Sarah who put her footdown and said there will be no divorce.
And people who supported Franklinalso, like Louis Howe, warned him
(48:30):
that a divorce in that time wouldhave ruined his political career.
And so he promised neverto see Lucy Mercer again.
And we reconciled.
And by that time we alreadyhad our five children.
Did he
follow through with that?
Well, that is a remarkable question.
We were never truly as men and wivesagain in the true sense of the word.
(48:53):
But we built a sense of trustand partnership through all those
years as governor and when he wasserving as president and such.
And yet, when I received thetelegram that Franklin had
passed in Warm Springs, Georgia.
He had been feeling very ill,polio, and in the stress of all of
his work and four terms in office.
He was elected for the fourth time thathe was suffering and not physically well.
(49:15):
He had gone to Warm Springs torecover and that is where I received
the telegram that he had passed.
And when I rushed there, Anna was with himand she reluctantly also shared that Lucy
Mercer was also with him when he died.
Thank you.
And then again, the ultimate betrayal,because not only had he been in contact,
she had married and had a family, butshe always came back to Franklin and Anna
(49:39):
and some of the other children had knownthat this relationship had continued.
But if you weren't really closewith them and they were really
close with him, I guess you couldsee why they would keep his secret.
And they truly loved their father.
And I think it was Anna who tried toexplain to me that that Franklin was.
In some ways, very needy himself,and people always were, he was very
(50:01):
social, and he was always the lifeof the party and such, and people
were always wanting to , have accessto him because of his power and his
influence and such, and she said, Annatold me that He just needed someone
to love him completely intentionallyand just for himself, and who he was.
(50:22):
. As a man, not as the most powerfulperson in the world, for four terms.
That is exactly right.
That is exactly right.
That helped me reconcile withhis behavior, his choices and even
the choices that my children madeto protect him and in a way not
telling me was also their goal.
There's a fire to protect me.
Wow.
(50:42):
Ellen horror was morepatient than I would ever be.
Sara Roosevelt was a handful.
Really it is astounding with peoplelike Sarah in her life and her husband
betraying her that she was able to remainfocused and do all the good that she did.
In the next episode, she'llcontinue to talk about the
obstacles she had to overcome onher quest to be useful at all times
(51:02):
As well as the cost ofdedicating her life to her work.
I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast.
If you haven't yet subscribed now,and we'll see you at the next episode
of the calling history podcastwith part two of Eleanor Roosevelt.
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