April 9, 2025 • 37 mins
In Part 2 of the 1833 conversation with Sally Hemings, she will talk about how she became front page news and what happened when Jefferson became sick and died.
Start episode 2 to join the conversation.
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ROBIN PEASE, actor, playwright, teaching artist, director, historical re-enactor, holds a Master of Fine Arts from Case Western Reserve University and a Bachelor of Fine Arts from Berklee’s Boston Conservatory. She has performed and taught drama/theatre, music, dance, literary arts and multiculturalism for people of all ages throughout the country from Massachusetts, to Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Virginia and more. Robin has presented for the Arts Education Partnership, Kennedy Center, International Children’s Games, Cleveland Public Theatre, Dolly Parton Imagination Library, Young Audiences, and the Corning Glass Museum, just to name a few.
Named by the National Storytelling Network an “emerging, under-appreciated and regional treasure storyteller", Pease's The Talkative Turtle And Other Tales has fans all over the world.
Learn more about Robin at:
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Contact her at: Robin.Pease@kulturekids.org
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Episode Transcript
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(00:28):
Welcome back to part two of Sally Hemings.
. In the last episode, Sally talkedabout the special privileges her
children received, the solemnpromise that Jefferson had made
her, and the reason why she couldnot stay in Paris as a free woman.
In this next episode, she's gonna talkabout Jefferson's illness that lasted
eight years and how it affected theenslaved people that built Monticello.
(00:51):
, and she'll tell the story ofhow Jefferson's indiscretions
became front page news.
Are they gonna send people to go get mychildren if they don't have any papers?
I did not know I was.
I was very worried about that becauseMr. Jefferson was in incredible debt.
He owed $107,000
Geez.
(01:11):
He was in so much debt, and hiscreditors did not hound him because
he was the president, but theywere, I felt sure that his creditors
were not gonna do that to Polly.
And Patsy, his daughters.
Yeah.
I'm sure that his creditors wantedtheir money once he died and,
(01:34):
. I should have gotten somethingin writing about his promise.
I should have gotten somethingin writing with a witness,
a white witness's signature.
But he never put anythingin writing about us.
He never put anything in writing.
The only thing he put in writingabout us was in his farm book.
He had this book, he called ithis farm book, which had all the
(01:56):
information about Monticello in it.
It had everything in that book.
Everything it talked about hisplantations, , it talked about his food.
He talked about when he changed fromgrowing tobacco to growing wheat.
He put that in there.
He kept everything in that farm bookabout his crop rotation, equipment,
number of hogs killed yearly plowing,sowing, planting, cutting arranged
(02:20):
by date, his spinning, his nailfactory, everything that had to do with
Monticello and his 10,000 acres states.
And he also had information aboutall his enslaved people there.
He had their names, their ages,their locations on these estates.
What were their jobs?
What clothes were they given?
, what did they eat?
How much they ate, where they camefrom, if they were inherited or bought?
(02:43):
And if they were bought, howmuch did he pay for them?
Who were their parents?
He had this for all ofhis enslaved people.
All of them except.
My children.
My children were listed in his farm book.
It had their name, it had listed me astheir mother, but where their father
was supposed to be listed, it wasblank as if they didn't have a father.
(03:05):
was nothing, but at least hedidn't put someone else's name.
But he just never talked about it and henever put anything in writing about it.
Even though his daughter,Patsy asked him to deny it.
He never did.
? Did, did you ever ask him to putit in writing and he declined?
I never asked him for anythingexcept that one time in France.
(03:26):
I said I was gonna stay.
That was the only thing I have asked.
I was enslaved.
I was not a person.
I was property.
That's how he looked on me.
I was property.
What?
A what a terrible thing.
It just seems to me that,well, again, you're a six,
you're a 15, 16-year-old girl.
(03:48):
You know, if you had been probablyfive years older, , I bet you
would've probably stayed in Paris.
I don't know.
I mean, don't forget I was having a baby
Yeah, that's true.
James and me.
I don't know if I would've stayed.
And don't forget, also, therewas the French Revolution.
Paris was
true.
No, you're absolutely right.
(04:09):
And the French Revolutionhappening right there.
People are gettingkilled every single day.
And it, you're right, it would not, havebeen a safe, as much as you don't wanna
be, go back to being enslaved, there'sno way it would've been safe there.
There, there was no wayfor you to stay in France.
I don't know.
Even though Monticello, Idon't know it, it was my home.
(04:30):
'cause isn't home where the heart is.
. And that's where my brothers andsisters, mother, they were there.
I knew, I didn't know anybody inParis except for my brother James.
And he went back too.
We both went back.
you say you didn't know anybody inParis, , you had mentioned that you spent
a little bit of time with Abigail Adams.
(04:51):
Tell me about what yourexperience with her was.
well, she was in London.
I didn't spend that much time withher because when we came over.
When Polly and I came over from Virginiato meet her father in Paris, we first
came to London and that's where we stayedwith Mistress Adams and her husband for
(05:11):
just a time while we were waiting for Mr.
Petite to to Londonand escort us to Paris.
So she was very nice, but Ithink she thought that maybe
I needed more care than Polly.
I don't know.
I was just a child and I was ina place I had never been before
(05:33):
with people I did not know.
It was hard.
It seems like you took to the,the language well, though , when
you left France were you fluent?
I would say that I was pretty good.
, Mr. Jefferson.
He got me a tutor so that I could learnand when you are there and so many
(05:53):
people are speaking French it's easierto learn as other people are speaking it,
So when you're in Paris and you areresponsible for poly, and I'm assuming
since president Jefferson is there,I'm assuming that there are different
I suppose balls or dinners that youhad to go to, especially in France
at that time, and he would've beenhanging around with wealthy people.
(06:17):
Are you attending these events with Polly?
Are you getting dressed up infancy dresses to do all this?
Well, yes, I have to say when I gotthere, the first thing he did was
get me some sort of a vaccine sothat I wouldn't get whooping cough
like his daughter Lucy did and died.
So I got, he gave me a vaccine and he alsobought me some beautiful clothes because
(06:39):
I had to accompany Polly to social events.
So since I was going to these socialevents, I had to look appropriate.
. And also when I was in France, I learnedthings because even though slavery
was illegal in France, I. a servant,and so I had to learn how to be a
(06:59):
servant, so I learned about fashion.
I learned how to do hair.
I learned how to sewand lau or find clothes.
I learned how to behavewhen you're accompanying
somebody of the aristocracy.
I learned that.
Did you enjoy this?
(07:21):
Because at this point, I mean, youare getting paid, you're definitely
getting paid way less than themen, which is never fair, for sure.
But did you enjoy the fashion andhanging around with these people and
being treated like , a person whois an employee rather than property?
(07:42):
Wasn't property becauseslavery was illegal.
But I still felt like that mywhole life, that's, what I am.
I do what I'm told.
That's just the way it is.
Even though slavery was illegalI think I still felt enslaved.
It's not like I could just go off on myown, I couldn't just go wherever I wanted.
(08:04):
Even though for the first time in mylife, I had a little bit of money, I
couldn't just go and do what I want.
I couldn't fall in lovewith somebody else.
It is just, that's not what it was.
still had control over you.
Yes.
It's that's how it is.
When you're enslaved, you have no choices.
(08:25):
You do what you're told.
you had mentioned that they callcalled your children, yellow children.
I don't understand where,where that comes from.
I don't understand how whiteand black makes yellow.
say, but that's just like, theycalled us the shadow family.
I don't know why theycalled them yellow children.
Because they weren't blackand they weren't white.
They were somewhere in the middle.
(08:47):
Okay.
It was just a term they used.
it's just a term.
. Why would you not attemptto escape at some point?
Or did you?
Where would I go?
I.
Yeah.
There's no place to escape too.
you could end up in a worse situation.
? Where would I go?
What would I do?
And even though I had a little bitof money, how long will that And
(09:08):
I don't know, if I would've left,just ran away in Paris he would've
sent somebody to look for me.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But
So
to me to run.
Well that makes sense.
I mean, your whole life.
I mean, you're, , under his control,complete control, unfortunately.
And there's just no place to run to.
(09:30):
You're absolutely right.
No, I, I, I can see that.
I really can.
I mean, from a distance here, you know,in my life, my privileged life, it's
very easy to look at the situationand say, why don't you fight back?
And, you know, why don't you run, likeI said, but you're absolutely right.
Where would you go?
I mean, it's just, that'sjust the way it is.
And then
W
to go back home, that I madewould not pay for the boat or the
(09:53):
transportation from Paris to London,and then the boat from London
to Virginia how would I do that?
How would I eat?
How would I do that?
And I don't know.
though.
I believed him when he swore that mychildren would be freed and that my
children would not have to work inhis nail factory back at Monticello.
(10:16):
He had this factory that made nails andusually the young boys would work there
and it was not a good place to work.
They were not kind to you ifyou worked in the nail factory.
But he swore to me my children would notwork in the nail factory, that they would
just work around the house and do lightwork like errands and things like that.
he swore to me.
(10:36):
But it was so strange though becauseI'm sure people were wondering
like, why does she get this?
Why?
Why are they treated so well?
But it wasn't just me.
was my whole Hammonds family, mymother, my brothers, my sisters.
We were treated better than theother enslaved people at Monticello.
We did not work in the fields.
(10:57):
And, and did any of your kidswork in the nail factory?
No, we did not work in the fields.
We did not work in the nail factory.
we were treated better in that way
, when you would speak with President Jefferson and he would speak with
you, I'm assuming that he wouldcall you Sally, I would guess.
Is that true?
Did he call you Sally or did he He
he called me Sally.
(11:19):
What did you call him?
I didn't call him anything.
That's it.
Totally one-sided relationship.
I did what I was told, , I usually,when I talk about him, I usually
do not refer to him by his name.
I usually just call him him.
Hmm.
I didn't call him by his name , as Igot older, I just, I wanted something
(11:42):
I. I wanted to be my own person.
? We don't have anything inour time written by you.
Do you have any I idea why that might be?
Oh,
I didn't write anything down.
I'm sure some people think that I wasilliterate, but my children learned
how to read and they showed me,
(12:02):
your children did?
yes, my children knew how to read.
He
of the things he promised.
He promised that they would learnhow to read, and so they did.
So what happened when he got sick was,my understanding is that when When he
got sick, he got sick for a long time.
Is that right?
Eight years.
(12:23):
Eight years.
? , that has to be really confusing 'causeyou have to be hoping that he doesn't
die or maybe that he dies becauseyou don't wanna be treated like this.
But then if he dies, what happens?
Did all of the enslavedpeople get sold off?
I mean, what is that all like andwhat happened at the end of that?
Well, I, it's not that Iwished that he would die.
, that's not the kind of person thatI am, but I was concerned because
(12:46):
like I said, he owed $107,000.
I don't know how much that is in yourtime, but in my time it was a lot.
He was dying in debt becausealways spent, and if he didn't
have enough money, he would borrow.
he loaned money to friendswho did not pay him back.
And when my father died, wife'sfather died, John Wales, he took
(13:10):
on his debt of like $4,000 and hedidn't do well with his farming.
And so I was wonderingwhat was going to happen.
And I was sorry that I didn't getsomething in writing, but I knew
what was gonna happen becausePatsy will sell all the men, women,
and children who are enslaved.
(13:31):
She can sell all of that and makesome money to pay off his debt.
Families will be broken apart.
Monticello also had to be sold.
And I was wondering, what about me?
Will I be sold?
What about my two childrenwho are still here?
Will they be sold?
, that's what I was wondering,what, what was going to happen.
So what did happen?
(13:53):
well, Monticello was sold and they soldall the men, women and children who
were enslaved, my children and all thechildren and all the slaves who built
Monticello, who took care of his children,who took care of his house, who cooked
his food, who kept his 10,000 acre estaterunning, who worked in his factory.
(14:13):
were you ever sold?
No, I was not sold.
I was not sold.
I was just given my time, which is an
That's what.
way to keep me enslaved.
But my last two children, Eston andMadison, I was surprised and I was very
happy that he freed them in his will.
(14:37):
He freed them in his
Did, did he give them anything else?
when he died, he freed five people.
This was in his papers.
He freed Burwell Colbert, who washis man servant and Monticello's
Butler, that was my nephew.
, he freed another one of my nephews, JosephFaucet, who was his blacksmith, but he
didn't free Joseph's wife and children.
(15:00):
He freed John Hemmings,my brother, the carpenter.
And he freed Madison and Eston Hemmings.
I.
not only did he free them, buthe petitioned the Virginia State
legislature to allow my boys toremain in Virginia after the one
year residency limit for free men.
So usually if someone was enslaved andthey were freed, they had to get out of
(15:20):
Virginia after one year, but he petitionedthe legislature to let my boys stay.
And so they did.
And , I live with my boys in Virginia.
I.
But do you remember yourfirst memory of Monticello?
don't remember my first memory ofMonticello because when my half
sister, Martha him, I was just a baby.
(15:44):
And that was one of thethings that she inherited.
She inherited all my family,the whole Hemmons family.
And so when she married him, allof us went over to Monticello.
So Monticello is the onlyhome that I ever knew.
I.
That was just, that was what you, thewhatever your first memory would've been.
This has been just, this is where I liveand this is what my life looks like.
(16:07):
Geez.
If you were to look back at everythingthat happened, if you were to look back
at all of it and you could redo someof the things that you would've done.
Is there anything thatyou would've changed?
, obviously you would've not been enslaved.
But out of the things that youcould control, what comes to mind?
What would you have changed?
What would you have donedifferently, if anything?
(16:28):
What would I have done differently?
I don't know.
I always told my children whotheir father was, so it's not like
I kept that a secret from them.
They all knew.
they all knew if I could change something,I would've asked him if he would let
me go, if he would let me go so thatmaybe I could find love with somebody
(16:52):
else and have a family with somebodyelse and have love with somebody else.
He would've never gone for that though.
And I wonder if maybe he wouldn't havegone for that, because people would've
asked, why, why are you releasing her?
And he would've had to explain it.
(17:12):
And I wonder if that maybe would'vebeen him acknowledging what he had done.
He couldn't acknowledge it.
And that's what I mean, like evenin death, he couldn't free me.
He couldn't let me go.
I don't know why he wanted me.
I don't know.
Is it because I look like my halfsister, his dead wife or just, is it
(17:34):
because it was easy to satisfy him.
He just come, take what youwant and then go on your way.
There was no courting that was necessary.
He didn't have to buy mepresents or anything like that.
It's just do what you want.
He always did what hewanted with everything.
He did what he wanted.
You know, we don't really haveany drawings or portraits of you.
(17:56):
I wonder if he was trying to sweepthis relationship under the rug.
They didn't make ofpeople who were enslaved.
They're
That could be that too.
They're not important.
Then, you know, I wasn't important.
I was property.
They didn't care about that.
Ms. Hemmings, that justshows , how naive I am.
(18:17):
That's why I ask these questions.
'cause I'm trying tounderstand these things.
Like it doesn't even occur to me.
, if they're treating you like property,which is totally unjust, I mean,
they're not going out and makingdrawings of the other property.
I mean, they're not, he'sprobably not drawing pictures
of, of his furniture either.
they did draw pictures ofMonticello, of the house.
You know, they'd draw pictures ofthat, but they wouldn't draw any
(18:39):
pictures of us because we don'tmatter in, in a way, we're like
a horse or a donkey or something.
And you know, like we just livein the barn and they take the
horse when they need to ride it.
And if they don't need to ride, itgoes in the barn, make sure it has
food so that, , if the horse doesn'thave food, the horse will die, and
then you have to get a new horse.
It's just we did not matter.
(19:00):
We were not important.
We were not.
And he would've never henever said anything about us.
He never.
Never said anything about us.
He didn't write about us,but he did write, he had this
other book that he wrote.
What was, it was something aboutsomething about the state of Virginia.
I don't remember what that book wascalled, and he said all sorts of
(19:22):
things because I guess you could say
he spoke out of both sides of his mouth.
On one side he wrote, there was in thisbook, the State of Virginia he had this
168 word passage that condemned slavery.
And I quote, as one of themany evils foisted upon the
colonies by the British crown.
(19:43):
And he said slavery was contrary tothe laws of nature, which decreed that
everyone had a right to personal liberty.
But he was talking aboutpeople not property.
That's one thing he said about slavery.
But on the other side, he wrote,slaves were as legitimate subjects
of property as horses or cattle.
And they're as incapable as childrenof taking care of themselves and
(20:05):
require a vigor of disciplineto make them do reasonable work.
Basically, blacks are inferior to whites.
That's what he wrote.
And if that's what he said, if that's whathe truly believed, why did he come for me?
I do not know.
It was easy.
He
Yeah,
and I just happened tobe there and I was young.
(20:28):
, how do I know about this then?
did somebody eventually write about this?
Did uh, okay.
That there's something that, youknow, go ahead, please explain.
that is funny becausehe never wrote about it.
He never wrote anything about it.
But there was this man bythe name of James t Calendar.
(20:50):
Now James T Calendar was a journalist,and when he was running for President,
James T Calendar wrote some sort of anarticle putting John Adams in a bad light.
So John Adams , was notreelected to the presidency.
And so Calendar did that.
And so Mr. Jefferson was happywith Calendar at that time.
(21:13):
And now I don't know what happened,but something happened and Calendar got
arrested and fined and had to go to jail.
But he got out of jail.
And when he got out, he went tothe new president and he told
the new president that he wantedto be the postmaster General.
Well, the new president pardonedcalendar for his time in jail, but he
refused to make him Postmaster General.
(21:34):
So Calendar got angry because hethought he was owed for writing
that article about John Adams.
And so Calendar wrote aboutus in the Richmond recorder.
wrote It is well known that the manwhom it delighted the people to honor
keeps and for many years past has kepthis concubine, one of his own slaves.
(21:57):
Her name is Sally.
And by this wench, our presidenthas had several children.
That's what he wrote.
And the story was picked up by othernewspapers around the country and it
went from him never talking about it.
And people would come to Monticello andsee these children who looked like him.
They didn't talk about it, butsuddenly everyone was talking about
(22:19):
it and they were writing about it.
And it was in all the newspapers.
They called me, dashing SallyJohn Adams called me Dashing.
Sally, other people called me.
The African Venus Dusky Sally,the mahogany colored Charma.
They called me a slut ascommon as the pavement.
They called me a negrowench in her mulatto litter.
They called me a woman of no worth.
(22:40):
They even called me Mrs. Sally Jefferson.
And they said he was increasingthe population of Virginia
with mulatto offspring
, was this a moment where you could have stepped into the spotlight and spoken up?
Speak up.
No, what, who would listen to me?
I'm enslaved.
Nobody listened to me.
Nobody listened to me.
(23:01):
And then they started singing songsabout me writing poems about me.
Oh, here's one poem.
Oh, Sally Hawking to my vows,yield up Thy ti charms my best,
beloved, my modern than spouse.
Oh, take me to that Arms.
Everyone was talking.
They wrote a song to the tune ofYankee Doodle, about me calling
(23:23):
me a black mos, the Dandy.
And they called meMonticello and Sally ela.
So Luscious Nare was seen.
And to breed a flock of slaves for stock.
Nobody would listen to me.
I'm a woman for one, andI'm an enslaved woman.
Everyone was talking.
Everyone except him.
he never publicly denied me and thechildren, even though people asked him.
(23:47):
never denied me.
Denied.
He just didn't say anything.
Nope.
just left it alone.
he said nothing.
Geez.
It, it's incredible thathe got away with that.
It, it had to be something that wasjust happening everywhere in your time.
And so that's why peopledidn't go further.
Beyond, , what he may have said wererumors, because if everybody was doing it,
(24:10):
certainly everybody's not gonna prosecuteeverybody else because , if he gets in
trouble, then other people get in trouble.
They just keep letting it go.
They
Status quo.
They didn't care about it.
We're not people.
We're property, we don't matter.
We don't matter.
They did not look on uslike people with feelings.
And the strange thing is, , even thoughHe treated my family better because
(24:35):
we did not work in the fields or thenail factory, but we hemi's family.
We waited on his family, we madehis furniture, we cooked his food.
We cared for his childrenand his grandchildren.
Yet our labor combined with the otherenslaved labor, . from scientific
instruments to the fine furnishingin his home, his enslaved people.
We built Monticello . Mybrother John saved a special
(24:58):
piece of wood for his coffin.
And what did he give the enslaved?
Nothing.
Families were broken apart and sold.
only thing that I got that my childrenwere freed and I was given my time.
It appears that the decision that youmade in Paris was a big decision that
(25:21):
changed the direction of your life?
Well, , maybe not.
No, maybe not.
Because by the time you made thatdecision, you were already pregnant.
That is right.
That's right.
So that, that decision wasalready made basically.
There was no way that you had achoice not to go to Paris, correct?
You had to go,
They told me I was going,and so I was going I
(25:44):
right?
though, because I was only 14 yearsold and then I got on this incredibly
huge boat going across the oceanwith all these people that I mean,
I had lived my life a Monticello.
never seen the things that I had seen whenI took her, they told me I was taking her.
It's not like I could say to Mrs. Epsor to my mother, , I don't want to go.
(26:06):
Yeah.
Okay.
the, maybe that's the thing.
You asked me if I could changethings, what would I change?
And I would like to have had some choicesthat I decide instead of always being told
what to do, I decide, but . I never did.
I guess the only decision Ihad is after he died, I decided
(26:30):
to go live with my sons.
What would your life have lookedlike if you had not gone to Paris?
Oh my goodness.
I don't know.
I might've been working in the fields.
The whole Hemmons family might've beenworking in the fields and in the nail
factory and maybe been mistreated.
I don't know if I didn't go to Paris hedidn't come for me, maybe my family would
(26:53):
not have been treated as well as we were.
And so
So.
reason and that reason, onlyI would keep my life as it
was because it wasn't just me.
It was my mother, my brothers, mysisters, their spouses, their children.
None of us worked in the fields.
We worked around the house.
(27:15):
We were his butlers, we were his maid Ds.
We washed his clothes.
We did all of that, but
did not work in the fields.
what a what a strange sacrifice tohave, to basically give everything
so that the rest of your family couldbe treated a little bit better.
(27:36):
It's just a, it's, it's, it's sucha terrible sacrifice to have to make
or even think about, but that is whatit ended up looking like, isn't it?
when you are enslaved, youjust accept that's your life.
What choice do you have?
That's,
I had no choice.
It might've been nice to have achoice, but I did not, and even if
(27:59):
I had a choice, should I stay inParis , , there was French Revolution
that's telling me Paris is dangerous.
Maybe I shouldn't stay there.
So
I can't even imagine a situationwhere a man and a woman have a
physical relationship and he doesnot treat her with some respect and
never buys her like a single gift.
(28:21):
Did he ever give you a gift?
I guess you could say my clothes.
My clothes.
But actually most of the slaves whoworked around the house had clothes
that were a little bit better thanthose who worked in the fields.
And I guess as I got older, my clotheswere they were nice clothes, I suppose.
(28:42):
Did the other enslaved people lookat you and maybe not get along
with you or were jealous of youbecause you were treated better?
I mean, I'm sure theyknew what was going on.
They had to have.
I think there was some , they thought,why is she getting all of this?
It's like, what did I get?
You know?
I don't know.
But there was some, I'm sure who didnot like that and who thought that the
(29:06):
Hemmons family, what made them so special?
did anybody ever stand up to him?
So did your brother or any ofyour sons ever have an altercation
with him because they knew thatyou were being treated this way?
well, my brother James, he, knowif you could say it, stood up.
He sort of stood up because.
(29:28):
He did not want to come back from Paristo Monticello, but he decided to come
back and he told Mr. Jefferson that ifhe came back, he wanted to be freed.
And so Mr. Jefferson said that ifJames trained someone else to do
his French cooking, thenhe would free James.
And he did.
(29:48):
So James trained, he trained stylecooking and then he was freed.
You know, I don't understandThomas Jefferson in our time.
He is beloved.
Because for his countryhe did a lot of good.
And yet , as you look at the fact thathe owned so many people and treated
(30:09):
them as property and took advantageof young, , girls like yourself, or
I should say girl, I think, I don'tknow if it's girls and, and ignored
, his children that he had with you.
And yet it sounds like he made a dealwith your brother and then he honored
that deal and so I don't know, is hean, is he an honorable man sometimes And
(30:30):
the lowest form of life at other times?
Is that how you would describe him?
He was human and he wanted what he wanted.
. When we were in France I don't even knowhow many cases of French champagne he sent
back to Monticello, and this was champagnethat came from Champagne in France.
, he never wanted anything, andthat's why he died owing $107,000.
(30:55):
But in his lifetime, heowned at least 600 people.
600,
That's a lot of people
and
and
he had been known if somebody ran away.
He did send people to go get thatperson and bring them back, except
he didn't do that to my children.
But he did.
so confusing it.
(31:16):
The double standard is so confusing.
double.
He that's when I say that he spoke outof both sides of his mouth and on one
Yeah.
he said slavery was bad, and on theother hand, he owned 600 people.
And also just the way he lookedupon black people, , he said that
blacks were inferior to whites.
I, he said something about thatblack people need discipline
(31:37):
in order to do reasonable work.
Do you know what that means?
Discipline.
Beaten probably.
I would say
Did he ever hit you?
did he ever hit me?
No.
I knew enough to do what I'm told.
I did not want be hit.
, that was my whole life.
(31:58):
I always did what I was told.
I can't think of a single timewhen I did not do what I was told.
I can't think of a single time.
Was there a, some sort a kind ofresentment that you had when you would
see the way that he would treat hiswhite children compared to the way
(32:19):
he would treat his children with you?
It was hard seeing him givelove and affection to them
and nothing to my children.
It was hard and , we just acceptedit because what choice did we have?
But then my children,they didn't have a father.
And then when they would see their cousinswith their fathers and they didn't have
(32:39):
that, but my children, they accepted it.
What were they supposed to do?
Yeah, there's just no place to go.
There's no place.
I mean, there's not like someorganization in the government where
you can go and complain and say,Hey, you know, I like the way this
is going and I'd like to change it.
They'd be like, I'msorry, your name is, yeah.
There's no place for you to go.
Do people in your time think that
(33:01):
Well, that's why I asked that aquestion at the beginning because
that you made it very clear how absurdmy questions are, and I actually
appreciate your honesty very much.
But there is that question.
And in fact there was aninterview that I was watching
a, a little bit earlier today.
And there was a, a, a black woman talkingabout the relationship and she was very
(33:24):
strongly saying that, of course, there'sno relationship between these two.
She's property, he'streating her like property.
And then the, they asked the whitehistorian the exact same question,
and the white historian said, look,you know, yeah, this was wrong.
, but sometimes, you know,people that were enslaved, they
would develop a relationship.
(33:45):
And I was listening to her and I'mlike, oh my gosh, that's ridiculous.
How can.
yes.
I don't know
It's so ridiculous.
say, first of all, because first ofall, he was so much older than me, We're
Right?
our elders second of all, his treatmentof my children, if he didn't treat my
children well, because he didn't treat mewell, , I think perhaps he looked on me
(34:10):
like a loyal, devoted servant, and I thinkthat our relationship was purely conal.
Ms. Hemmings, I, I've had such a wonderfultime talking to you and you know, I,
I want you to know that in our timeyour children grow up to do some very
interesting and, and productive andintelligent things, they do something
(34:30):
with the life that you gave them.
And I I. I have a much betterunderstanding because you've taken
the time to , answer my absurdquestions, and I just, I just
thank you for taking this time.
Is there anything that you wouldlike to say as, as we wrap this up?
,, in your time in the future, , isthere any sort of something to prove
that my children were his children?
(34:52):
Do you
They do.
Yeah.
They actually do havesomething in our time.
, you can go to somebody like a doctor hereand get a test to determine whether or
not somebody is somebody else's parent.
And, , they've tested ancestors ofboth you and him, and, and they can
see that the connection is there.
(35:14):
And so, yeah, in our time we know, we knowthat he's the father and we know that.
Absolutely.
Oh, I'm so happy to hear that,
Yeah.
I mean, that doesn't change anything but.
The only thing that it changes is inour time, but yeah, it certainly doesn't
change anything in, in, in your time.
But I, I just, I just, you know, I, Ican't imagine what your family's life
(35:38):
would've been like working in the fieldsand working in the nail factories,
. If you hadn't made the sacrifice.
You did.
But at the same time, , it is justa terrible sacrifice to have made.
I just, I just wish you didn't haveto make it to, to get to that point.
But I'm, I'm just so thankful for youtaking the time to talk to me today.
Well, thank you so much and thank you fortelling me about that people know in your
(36:00):
time and that you will others my story.
Yep.
They'll hear, they'll hear our exactconversation and and understand
that this was not a man and awoman in a romantic relationship.
It was nothing close to that.
And not even for a second they'll know.
Well, thank you.
Yes.
Thank you again for your time andI'm wishing you the absolute best
(36:23):
in these years with your sons.
I appreciate it.
How is it that we could possiblydoubt that Thomas Jefferson had
children with Sally Hemings?
The DNA evidence is nearly irrefutable,but even without it, how else could
you explain the special privileges?
The fact that he chose Sally, wholooked a lot like his deceased wife
(36:43):
to join him in France, and the factthat Sally came home pregnant with
kids that looked a lot like him.
Yet, despite Sally knowing that herchildren's father would never acknowledge
them, she found a way to make a giganticsacrifice that would improve the quality
of her family's life and pave the wayfor her sons to have a free future.
Thank you for listening, and don'tforget that when you tell a friend
(37:06):
about the Calling History podcast, acoat pocket reveals a single jellybean
and a note that says soon I'm TonyDean, and until next time, I'm history.
Welcome back to part two of Sally Hemings.
. In the last episode, Sally talkedabout the special privileges her
children received, the solemnpromise that Jefferson had made
her, and the reason why she couldnot stay in Paris as a free woman.
In this next episode, she's gonna talkabout Jefferson's illness that lasted
eight years and how it affected theenslaved people that built Monticello.
(00:51):
, and she'll tell the story ofhow Jefferson's indiscretions
became front page news.
Are they gonna send people to go get mychildren if they don't have any papers?
I did not know I was.
I was very worried about that becauseMr. Jefferson was in incredible debt.
He owed $107,000
Geez.
(01:11):
He was in so much debt, and hiscreditors did not hound him because
he was the president, but theywere, I felt sure that his creditors
were not gonna do that to Polly.
And Patsy, his daughters.
Yeah.
I'm sure that his creditors wantedtheir money once he died and,
(01:34):
. I should have gotten somethingin writing about his promise.
I should have gotten somethingin writing with a witness,
a white witness's signature.
But he never put anythingin writing about us.
He never put anything in writing.
The only thing he put in writingabout us was in his farm book.
He had this book, he called ithis farm book, which had all the
(01:56):
information about Monticello in it.
It had everything in that book.
Everything it talked about hisplantations, , it talked about his food.
He talked about when he changed fromgrowing tobacco to growing wheat.
He put that in there.
He kept everything in that farm bookabout his crop rotation, equipment,
number of hogs killed yearly plowing,sowing, planting, cutting arranged
(02:20):
by date, his spinning, his nailfactory, everything that had to do with
Monticello and his 10,000 acres states.
And he also had information aboutall his enslaved people there.
He had their names, their ages,their locations on these estates.
What were their jobs?
What clothes were they given?
, what did they eat?
How much they ate, where they camefrom, if they were inherited or bought?
(02:43):
And if they were bought, howmuch did he pay for them?
Who were their parents?
He had this for all ofhis enslaved people.
All of them except.
My children.
My children were listed in his farm book.
It had their name, it had listed me astheir mother, but where their father
was supposed to be listed, it wasblank as if they didn't have a father.
(03:05):
was nothing, but at least hedidn't put someone else's name.
But he just never talked about it and henever put anything in writing about it.
Even though his daughter,Patsy asked him to deny it.
He never did.
? Did, did you ever ask him to putit in writing and he declined?
I never asked him for anythingexcept that one time in France.
(03:26):
I said I was gonna stay.
That was the only thing I have asked.
I was enslaved.
I was not a person.
I was property.
That's how he looked on me.
I was property.
What?
A what a terrible thing.
It just seems to me that,well, again, you're a six,
you're a 15, 16-year-old girl.
(03:48):
You know, if you had been probablyfive years older, , I bet you
would've probably stayed in Paris.
I don't know.
I mean, don't forget I was having a baby
Yeah, that's true.
James and me.
I don't know if I would've stayed.
And don't forget, also, therewas the French Revolution.
Paris was
true.
No, you're absolutely right.
(04:09):
And the French Revolutionhappening right there.
People are gettingkilled every single day.
And it, you're right, it would not, havebeen a safe, as much as you don't wanna
be, go back to being enslaved, there'sno way it would've been safe there.
There, there was no wayfor you to stay in France.
I don't know.
Even though Monticello, Idon't know it, it was my home.
(04:30):
'cause isn't home where the heart is.
. And that's where my brothers andsisters, mother, they were there.
I knew, I didn't know anybody inParis except for my brother James.
And he went back too.
We both went back.
you say you didn't know anybody inParis, , you had mentioned that you spent
a little bit of time with Abigail Adams.
(04:51):
Tell me about what yourexperience with her was.
well, she was in London.
I didn't spend that much time withher because when we came over.
When Polly and I came over from Virginiato meet her father in Paris, we first
came to London and that's where we stayedwith Mistress Adams and her husband for
(05:11):
just a time while we were waiting for Mr.
Petite to to Londonand escort us to Paris.
So she was very nice, but Ithink she thought that maybe
I needed more care than Polly.
I don't know.
I was just a child and I was ina place I had never been before
(05:33):
with people I did not know.
It was hard.
It seems like you took to the,the language well, though , when
you left France were you fluent?
I would say that I was pretty good.
, Mr. Jefferson.
He got me a tutor so that I could learnand when you are there and so many
(05:53):
people are speaking French it's easierto learn as other people are speaking it,
So when you're in Paris and you areresponsible for poly, and I'm assuming
since president Jefferson is there,I'm assuming that there are different
I suppose balls or dinners that youhad to go to, especially in France
at that time, and he would've beenhanging around with wealthy people.
(06:17):
Are you attending these events with Polly?
Are you getting dressed up infancy dresses to do all this?
Well, yes, I have to say when I gotthere, the first thing he did was
get me some sort of a vaccine sothat I wouldn't get whooping cough
like his daughter Lucy did and died.
So I got, he gave me a vaccine and he alsobought me some beautiful clothes because
(06:39):
I had to accompany Polly to social events.
So since I was going to these socialevents, I had to look appropriate.
. And also when I was in France, I learnedthings because even though slavery
was illegal in France, I. a servant,and so I had to learn how to be a
(06:59):
servant, so I learned about fashion.
I learned how to do hair.
I learned how to sewand lau or find clothes.
I learned how to behavewhen you're accompanying
somebody of the aristocracy.
I learned that.
Did you enjoy this?
(07:21):
Because at this point, I mean, youare getting paid, you're definitely
getting paid way less than themen, which is never fair, for sure.
But did you enjoy the fashion andhanging around with these people and
being treated like , a person whois an employee rather than property?
(07:42):
Wasn't property becauseslavery was illegal.
But I still felt like that mywhole life, that's, what I am.
I do what I'm told.
That's just the way it is.
Even though slavery was illegalI think I still felt enslaved.
It's not like I could just go off on myown, I couldn't just go wherever I wanted.
(08:04):
Even though for the first time in mylife, I had a little bit of money, I
couldn't just go and do what I want.
I couldn't fall in lovewith somebody else.
It is just, that's not what it was.
still had control over you.
Yes.
It's that's how it is.
When you're enslaved, you have no choices.
(08:25):
You do what you're told.
you had mentioned that they callcalled your children, yellow children.
I don't understand where,where that comes from.
I don't understand how whiteand black makes yellow.
say, but that's just like, theycalled us the shadow family.
I don't know why theycalled them yellow children.
Because they weren't blackand they weren't white.
They were somewhere in the middle.
(08:47):
Okay.
It was just a term they used.
it's just a term.
. Why would you not attemptto escape at some point?
Or did you?
Where would I go?
I.
Yeah.
There's no place to escape too.
you could end up in a worse situation.
? Where would I go?
What would I do?
And even though I had a little bitof money, how long will that And
(09:08):
I don't know, if I would've left,just ran away in Paris he would've
sent somebody to look for me.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But
So
to me to run.
Well that makes sense.
I mean, your whole life.
I mean, you're, , under his control,complete control, unfortunately.
And there's just no place to run to.
(09:30):
You're absolutely right.
No, I, I, I can see that.
I really can.
I mean, from a distance here, you know,in my life, my privileged life, it's
very easy to look at the situationand say, why don't you fight back?
And, you know, why don't you run, likeI said, but you're absolutely right.
Where would you go?
I mean, it's just, that'sjust the way it is.
And then
W
to go back home, that I madewould not pay for the boat or the
(09:53):
transportation from Paris to London,and then the boat from London
to Virginia how would I do that?
How would I eat?
How would I do that?
And I don't know.
though.
I believed him when he swore that mychildren would be freed and that my
children would not have to work inhis nail factory back at Monticello.
(10:16):
He had this factory that made nails andusually the young boys would work there
and it was not a good place to work.
They were not kind to you ifyou worked in the nail factory.
But he swore to me my children would notwork in the nail factory, that they would
just work around the house and do lightwork like errands and things like that.
he swore to me.
(10:36):
But it was so strange though becauseI'm sure people were wondering
like, why does she get this?
Why?
Why are they treated so well?
But it wasn't just me.
was my whole Hammonds family, mymother, my brothers, my sisters.
We were treated better than theother enslaved people at Monticello.
We did not work in the fields.
(10:57):
And, and did any of your kidswork in the nail factory?
No, we did not work in the fields.
We did not work in the nail factory.
we were treated better in that way
, when you would speak with President Jefferson and he would speak with
you, I'm assuming that he wouldcall you Sally, I would guess.
Is that true?
Did he call you Sally or did he He
he called me Sally.
(11:19):
What did you call him?
I didn't call him anything.
That's it.
Totally one-sided relationship.
I did what I was told, , I usually,when I talk about him, I usually
do not refer to him by his name.
I usually just call him him.
Hmm.
I didn't call him by his name , as Igot older, I just, I wanted something
(11:42):
I. I wanted to be my own person.
? We don't have anything inour time written by you.
Do you have any I idea why that might be?
Oh,
I didn't write anything down.
I'm sure some people think that I wasilliterate, but my children learned
how to read and they showed me,
(12:02):
your children did?
yes, my children knew how to read.
He
of the things he promised.
He promised that they would learnhow to read, and so they did.
So what happened when he got sick was,my understanding is that when When he
got sick, he got sick for a long time.
Is that right?
Eight years.
(12:23):
Eight years.
? , that has to be really confusing 'causeyou have to be hoping that he doesn't
die or maybe that he dies becauseyou don't wanna be treated like this.
But then if he dies, what happens?
Did all of the enslavedpeople get sold off?
I mean, what is that all like andwhat happened at the end of that?
Well, I, it's not that Iwished that he would die.
, that's not the kind of person thatI am, but I was concerned because
(12:46):
like I said, he owed $107,000.
I don't know how much that is in yourtime, but in my time it was a lot.
He was dying in debt becausealways spent, and if he didn't
have enough money, he would borrow.
he loaned money to friendswho did not pay him back.
And when my father died, wife'sfather died, John Wales, he took
(13:10):
on his debt of like $4,000 and hedidn't do well with his farming.
And so I was wonderingwhat was going to happen.
And I was sorry that I didn't getsomething in writing, but I knew
what was gonna happen becausePatsy will sell all the men, women,
and children who are enslaved.
(13:31):
She can sell all of that and makesome money to pay off his debt.
Families will be broken apart.
Monticello also had to be sold.
And I was wondering, what about me?
Will I be sold?
What about my two childrenwho are still here?
Will they be sold?
, that's what I was wondering,what, what was going to happen.
So what did happen?
(13:53):
well, Monticello was sold and they soldall the men, women and children who
were enslaved, my children and all thechildren and all the slaves who built
Monticello, who took care of his children,who took care of his house, who cooked
his food, who kept his 10,000 acre estaterunning, who worked in his factory.
(14:13):
were you ever sold?
No, I was not sold.
I was not sold.
I was just given my time, which is an
That's what.
way to keep me enslaved.
But my last two children, Eston andMadison, I was surprised and I was very
happy that he freed them in his will.
(14:37):
He freed them in his
Did, did he give them anything else?
when he died, he freed five people.
This was in his papers.
He freed Burwell Colbert, who washis man servant and Monticello's
Butler, that was my nephew.
, he freed another one of my nephews, JosephFaucet, who was his blacksmith, but he
didn't free Joseph's wife and children.
(15:00):
He freed John Hemmings,my brother, the carpenter.
And he freed Madison and Eston Hemmings.
I.
not only did he free them, buthe petitioned the Virginia State
legislature to allow my boys toremain in Virginia after the one
year residency limit for free men.
So usually if someone was enslaved andthey were freed, they had to get out of
(15:20):
Virginia after one year, but he petitionedthe legislature to let my boys stay.
And so they did.
And , I live with my boys in Virginia.
I.
But do you remember yourfirst memory of Monticello?
don't remember my first memory ofMonticello because when my half
sister, Martha him, I was just a baby.
(15:44):
And that was one of thethings that she inherited.
She inherited all my family,the whole Hemmons family.
And so when she married him, allof us went over to Monticello.
So Monticello is the onlyhome that I ever knew.
I.
That was just, that was what you, thewhatever your first memory would've been.
This has been just, this is where I liveand this is what my life looks like.
(16:07):
Geez.
If you were to look back at everythingthat happened, if you were to look back
at all of it and you could redo someof the things that you would've done.
Is there anything thatyou would've changed?
, obviously you would've not been enslaved.
But out of the things that youcould control, what comes to mind?
What would you have changed?
What would you have donedifferently, if anything?
(16:28):
What would I have done differently?
I don't know.
I always told my children whotheir father was, so it's not like
I kept that a secret from them.
They all knew.
they all knew if I could change something,I would've asked him if he would let
me go, if he would let me go so thatmaybe I could find love with somebody
(16:52):
else and have a family with somebodyelse and have love with somebody else.
He would've never gone for that though.
And I wonder if maybe he wouldn't havegone for that, because people would've
asked, why, why are you releasing her?
And he would've had to explain it.
(17:12):
And I wonder if that maybe would'vebeen him acknowledging what he had done.
He couldn't acknowledge it.
And that's what I mean, like evenin death, he couldn't free me.
He couldn't let me go.
I don't know why he wanted me.
I don't know.
Is it because I look like my halfsister, his dead wife or just, is it
(17:34):
because it was easy to satisfy him.
He just come, take what youwant and then go on your way.
There was no courting that was necessary.
He didn't have to buy mepresents or anything like that.
It's just do what you want.
He always did what hewanted with everything.
He did what he wanted.
You know, we don't really haveany drawings or portraits of you.
(17:56):
I wonder if he was trying to sweepthis relationship under the rug.
They didn't make ofpeople who were enslaved.
They're
That could be that too.
They're not important.
Then, you know, I wasn't important.
I was property.
They didn't care about that.
Ms. Hemmings, that justshows , how naive I am.
(18:17):
That's why I ask these questions.
'cause I'm trying tounderstand these things.
Like it doesn't even occur to me.
, if they're treating you like property,which is totally unjust, I mean,
they're not going out and makingdrawings of the other property.
I mean, they're not, he'sprobably not drawing pictures
of, of his furniture either.
they did draw pictures ofMonticello, of the house.
You know, they'd draw pictures ofthat, but they wouldn't draw any
(18:39):
pictures of us because we don'tmatter in, in a way, we're like
a horse or a donkey or something.
And you know, like we just livein the barn and they take the
horse when they need to ride it.
And if they don't need to ride, itgoes in the barn, make sure it has
food so that, , if the horse doesn'thave food, the horse will die, and
then you have to get a new horse.
It's just we did not matter.
(19:00):
We were not important.
We were not.
And he would've never henever said anything about us.
He never.
Never said anything about us.
He didn't write about us,but he did write, he had this
other book that he wrote.
What was, it was something aboutsomething about the state of Virginia.
I don't remember what that book wascalled, and he said all sorts of
(19:22):
things because I guess you could say
he spoke out of both sides of his mouth.
On one side he wrote, there was in thisbook, the State of Virginia he had this
168 word passage that condemned slavery.
And I quote, as one of themany evils foisted upon the
colonies by the British crown.
(19:43):
And he said slavery was contrary tothe laws of nature, which decreed that
everyone had a right to personal liberty.
But he was talking aboutpeople not property.
That's one thing he said about slavery.
But on the other side, he wrote,slaves were as legitimate subjects
of property as horses or cattle.
And they're as incapable as childrenof taking care of themselves and
(20:05):
require a vigor of disciplineto make them do reasonable work.
Basically, blacks are inferior to whites.
That's what he wrote.
And if that's what he said, if that's whathe truly believed, why did he come for me?
I do not know.
It was easy.
He
Yeah,
and I just happened tobe there and I was young.
(20:28):
, how do I know about this then?
did somebody eventually write about this?
Did uh, okay.
That there's something that, youknow, go ahead, please explain.
that is funny becausehe never wrote about it.
He never wrote anything about it.
But there was this man bythe name of James t Calendar.
(20:50):
Now James T Calendar was a journalist,and when he was running for President,
James T Calendar wrote some sort of anarticle putting John Adams in a bad light.
So John Adams , was notreelected to the presidency.
And so Calendar did that.
And so Mr. Jefferson was happywith Calendar at that time.
(21:13):
And now I don't know what happened,but something happened and Calendar got
arrested and fined and had to go to jail.
But he got out of jail.
And when he got out, he went tothe new president and he told
the new president that he wantedto be the postmaster General.
Well, the new president pardonedcalendar for his time in jail, but he
refused to make him Postmaster General.
(21:34):
So Calendar got angry because hethought he was owed for writing
that article about John Adams.
And so Calendar wrote aboutus in the Richmond recorder.
wrote It is well known that the manwhom it delighted the people to honor
keeps and for many years past has kepthis concubine, one of his own slaves.
(21:57):
Her name is Sally.
And by this wench, our presidenthas had several children.
That's what he wrote.
And the story was picked up by othernewspapers around the country and it
went from him never talking about it.
And people would come to Monticello andsee these children who looked like him.
They didn't talk about it, butsuddenly everyone was talking about
(22:19):
it and they were writing about it.
And it was in all the newspapers.
They called me, dashing SallyJohn Adams called me Dashing.
Sally, other people called me.
The African Venus Dusky Sally,the mahogany colored Charma.
They called me a slut ascommon as the pavement.
They called me a negrowench in her mulatto litter.
They called me a woman of no worth.
(22:40):
They even called me Mrs. Sally Jefferson.
And they said he was increasingthe population of Virginia
with mulatto offspring
, was this a moment where you could have stepped into the spotlight and spoken up?
Speak up.
No, what, who would listen to me?
I'm enslaved.
Nobody listened to me.
Nobody listened to me.
(23:01):
And then they started singing songsabout me writing poems about me.
Oh, here's one poem.
Oh, Sally Hawking to my vows,yield up Thy ti charms my best,
beloved, my modern than spouse.
Oh, take me to that Arms.
Everyone was talking.
They wrote a song to the tune ofYankee Doodle, about me calling
(23:23):
me a black mos, the Dandy.
And they called meMonticello and Sally ela.
So Luscious Nare was seen.
And to breed a flock of slaves for stock.
Nobody would listen to me.
I'm a woman for one, andI'm an enslaved woman.
Everyone was talking.
Everyone except him.
he never publicly denied me and thechildren, even though people asked him.
(23:47):
never denied me.
Denied.
He just didn't say anything.
Nope.
just left it alone.
he said nothing.
Geez.
It, it's incredible thathe got away with that.
It, it had to be something that wasjust happening everywhere in your time.
And so that's why peopledidn't go further.
Beyond, , what he may have said wererumors, because if everybody was doing it,
(24:10):
certainly everybody's not gonna prosecuteeverybody else because , if he gets in
trouble, then other people get in trouble.
They just keep letting it go.
They
Status quo.
They didn't care about it.
We're not people.
We're property, we don't matter.
We don't matter.
They did not look on uslike people with feelings.
And the strange thing is, , even thoughHe treated my family better because
(24:35):
we did not work in the fields or thenail factory, but we hemi's family.
We waited on his family, we madehis furniture, we cooked his food.
We cared for his childrenand his grandchildren.
Yet our labor combined with the otherenslaved labor, . from scientific
instruments to the fine furnishingin his home, his enslaved people.
We built Monticello . Mybrother John saved a special
(24:58):
piece of wood for his coffin.
And what did he give the enslaved?
Nothing.
Families were broken apart and sold.
only thing that I got that my childrenwere freed and I was given my time.
It appears that the decision that youmade in Paris was a big decision that
(25:21):
changed the direction of your life?
Well, , maybe not.
No, maybe not.
Because by the time you made thatdecision, you were already pregnant.
That is right.
That's right.
So that, that decision wasalready made basically.
There was no way that you had achoice not to go to Paris, correct?
You had to go,
They told me I was going,and so I was going I
(25:44):
right?
though, because I was only 14 yearsold and then I got on this incredibly
huge boat going across the oceanwith all these people that I mean,
I had lived my life a Monticello.
never seen the things that I had seen whenI took her, they told me I was taking her.
It's not like I could say to Mrs. Epsor to my mother, , I don't want to go.
(26:06):
Yeah.
Okay.
the, maybe that's the thing.
You asked me if I could changethings, what would I change?
And I would like to have had some choicesthat I decide instead of always being told
what to do, I decide, but . I never did.
I guess the only decision Ihad is after he died, I decided
(26:30):
to go live with my sons.
What would your life have lookedlike if you had not gone to Paris?
Oh my goodness.
I don't know.
I might've been working in the fields.
The whole Hemmons family might've beenworking in the fields and in the nail
factory and maybe been mistreated.
I don't know if I didn't go to Paris hedidn't come for me, maybe my family would
(26:53):
not have been treated as well as we were.
And so
So.
reason and that reason, onlyI would keep my life as it
was because it wasn't just me.
It was my mother, my brothers, mysisters, their spouses, their children.
None of us worked in the fields.
We worked around the house.
(27:15):
We were his butlers, we were his maid Ds.
We washed his clothes.
We did all of that, but
did not work in the fields.
what a what a strange sacrifice tohave, to basically give everything
so that the rest of your family couldbe treated a little bit better.
(27:36):
It's just a, it's, it's, it's sucha terrible sacrifice to have to make
or even think about, but that is whatit ended up looking like, isn't it?
when you are enslaved, youjust accept that's your life.
What choice do you have?
That's,
I had no choice.
It might've been nice to have achoice, but I did not, and even if
(27:59):
I had a choice, should I stay inParis , , there was French Revolution
that's telling me Paris is dangerous.
Maybe I shouldn't stay there.
So
I can't even imagine a situationwhere a man and a woman have a
physical relationship and he doesnot treat her with some respect and
never buys her like a single gift.
(28:21):
Did he ever give you a gift?
I guess you could say my clothes.
My clothes.
But actually most of the slaves whoworked around the house had clothes
that were a little bit better thanthose who worked in the fields.
And I guess as I got older, my clotheswere they were nice clothes, I suppose.
(28:42):
Did the other enslaved people lookat you and maybe not get along
with you or were jealous of youbecause you were treated better?
I mean, I'm sure theyknew what was going on.
They had to have.
I think there was some , they thought,why is she getting all of this?
It's like, what did I get?
You know?
I don't know.
But there was some, I'm sure who didnot like that and who thought that the
(29:06):
Hemmons family, what made them so special?
did anybody ever stand up to him?
So did your brother or any ofyour sons ever have an altercation
with him because they knew thatyou were being treated this way?
well, my brother James, he, knowif you could say it, stood up.
He sort of stood up because.
(29:28):
He did not want to come back from Paristo Monticello, but he decided to come
back and he told Mr. Jefferson that ifhe came back, he wanted to be freed.
And so Mr. Jefferson said that ifJames trained someone else to do
his French cooking, thenhe would free James.
And he did.
(29:48):
So James trained, he trained stylecooking and then he was freed.
You know, I don't understandThomas Jefferson in our time.
He is beloved.
Because for his countryhe did a lot of good.
And yet , as you look at the fact thathe owned so many people and treated
(30:09):
them as property and took advantageof young, , girls like yourself, or
I should say girl, I think, I don'tknow if it's girls and, and ignored
, his children that he had with you.
And yet it sounds like he made a dealwith your brother and then he honored
that deal and so I don't know, is hean, is he an honorable man sometimes And
(30:30):
the lowest form of life at other times?
Is that how you would describe him?
He was human and he wanted what he wanted.
. When we were in France I don't even knowhow many cases of French champagne he sent
back to Monticello, and this was champagnethat came from Champagne in France.
, he never wanted anything, andthat's why he died owing $107,000.
(30:55):
But in his lifetime, heowned at least 600 people.
600,
That's a lot of people
and
and
he had been known if somebody ran away.
He did send people to go get thatperson and bring them back, except
he didn't do that to my children.
But he did.
so confusing it.
(31:16):
The double standard is so confusing.
double.
He that's when I say that he spoke outof both sides of his mouth and on one
Yeah.
he said slavery was bad, and on theother hand, he owned 600 people.
And also just the way he lookedupon black people, , he said that
blacks were inferior to whites.
I, he said something about thatblack people need discipline
(31:37):
in order to do reasonable work.
Do you know what that means?
Discipline.
Beaten probably.
I would say
Did he ever hit you?
did he ever hit me?
No.
I knew enough to do what I'm told.
I did not want be hit.
, that was my whole life.
(31:58):
I always did what I was told.
I can't think of a single timewhen I did not do what I was told.
I can't think of a single time.
Was there a, some sort a kind ofresentment that you had when you would
see the way that he would treat hiswhite children compared to the way
(32:19):
he would treat his children with you?
It was hard seeing him givelove and affection to them
and nothing to my children.
It was hard and , we just acceptedit because what choice did we have?
But then my children,they didn't have a father.
And then when they would see their cousinswith their fathers and they didn't have
(32:39):
that, but my children, they accepted it.
What were they supposed to do?
Yeah, there's just no place to go.
There's no place.
I mean, there's not like someorganization in the government where
you can go and complain and say,Hey, you know, I like the way this
is going and I'd like to change it.
They'd be like, I'msorry, your name is, yeah.
There's no place for you to go.
Do people in your time think that
(33:01):
Well, that's why I asked that aquestion at the beginning because
that you made it very clear how absurdmy questions are, and I actually
appreciate your honesty very much.
But there is that question.
And in fact there was aninterview that I was watching
a, a little bit earlier today.
And there was a, a, a black woman talkingabout the relationship and she was very
(33:24):
strongly saying that, of course, there'sno relationship between these two.
She's property, he'streating her like property.
And then the, they asked the whitehistorian the exact same question,
and the white historian said, look,you know, yeah, this was wrong.
, but sometimes, you know,people that were enslaved, they
would develop a relationship.
(33:45):
And I was listening to her and I'mlike, oh my gosh, that's ridiculous.
How can.
yes.
I don't know
It's so ridiculous.
say, first of all, because first ofall, he was so much older than me, We're
Right?
our elders second of all, his treatmentof my children, if he didn't treat my
children well, because he didn't treat mewell, , I think perhaps he looked on me
(34:10):
like a loyal, devoted servant, and I thinkthat our relationship was purely conal.
Ms. Hemmings, I, I've had such a wonderfultime talking to you and you know, I,
I want you to know that in our timeyour children grow up to do some very
interesting and, and productive andintelligent things, they do something
(34:30):
with the life that you gave them.
And I I. I have a much betterunderstanding because you've taken
the time to , answer my absurdquestions, and I just, I just
thank you for taking this time.
Is there anything that you wouldlike to say as, as we wrap this up?
,, in your time in the future, , isthere any sort of something to prove
that my children were his children?
(34:52):
Do you
They do.
Yeah.
They actually do havesomething in our time.
, you can go to somebody like a doctor hereand get a test to determine whether or
not somebody is somebody else's parent.
And, , they've tested ancestors ofboth you and him, and, and they can
see that the connection is there.
(35:14):
And so, yeah, in our time we know, we knowthat he's the father and we know that.
Absolutely.
Oh, I'm so happy to hear that,
Yeah.
I mean, that doesn't change anything but.
The only thing that it changes is inour time, but yeah, it certainly doesn't
change anything in, in, in your time.
But I, I just, I just, you know, I, Ican't imagine what your family's life
(35:38):
would've been like working in the fieldsand working in the nail factories,
. If you hadn't made the sacrifice.
You did.
But at the same time, , it is justa terrible sacrifice to have made.
I just, I just wish you didn't haveto make it to, to get to that point.
But I'm, I'm just so thankful for youtaking the time to talk to me today.
Well, thank you so much and thank you fortelling me about that people know in your
(36:00):
time and that you will others my story.
Yep.
They'll hear, they'll hear our exactconversation and and understand
that this was not a man and awoman in a romantic relationship.
It was nothing close to that.
And not even for a second they'll know.
Well, thank you.
Yes.
Thank you again for your time andI'm wishing you the absolute best
(36:23):
in these years with your sons.
I appreciate it.
How is it that we could possiblydoubt that Thomas Jefferson had
children with Sally Hemings?
The DNA evidence is nearly irrefutable,but even without it, how else could
you explain the special privileges?
The fact that he chose Sally, wholooked a lot like his deceased wife
(36:43):
to join him in France, and the factthat Sally came home pregnant with
kids that looked a lot like him.
Yet, despite Sally knowing that herchildren's father would never acknowledge
them, she found a way to make a giganticsacrifice that would improve the quality
of her family's life and pave the wayfor her sons to have a free future.
Thank you for listening, and don'tforget that when you tell a friend
(37:06):
about the Calling History podcast, acoat pocket reveals a single jellybean
and a note that says soon I'm TonyDean, and until next time, I'm history.
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