April 17, 2024 • 73 mins
This episode is about "Joyful madness" and a brilliant collaboration between Science and the Arts. Dr. Weliton Menário Costa, also known as Weli both as a scientist and as a recording artist, is the global winner of the "Dance Your PhD" competition. Complex academic research is communicated through dance to reach new audiences. It’s a tough but inspired challenge and a joy to see science celebrated through the Arts. The visibility of this relationship is especially important when a divisive political approach between the Arts and Sciences has dominated here in the UK; but it’s not a natural division. What is and isn’t natural is also a critical finding in Weli’s scientific work. His three year study of wild kangaroos has evidenced the natural diversity of kangaroo personalities and without conflict. He was able to conclude, “Kangaroos are different, just like us. Differences happen in all species, it’s just natural.” And this is what you see in Weli’s video, a group dance that includes a Drag Queen with Brazilian funk, classical Indian and ballet dancers all performing to his own song, Kangaroo Time.
We draw on parallels between his scientific study of wild kangaroos and human behaviour. Weli shares powerful, personal stories of his own challenges with identity and mental health. As a young gay man growing up in a conservative rural area of Brazil, being different alerted him to how the social environment can also shape our behaviour. He talks about his personal fears and anxieties and how his life changed dramatically in Australia where he now lives. We talk about his meditation practice and the importance of acceptance and letting go whilst understanding these aren't passive states. His practice has been core to his cultivation of courage and to developing responsiveness rather than reactiveness. There are clear acts of courageousness in Weli's journey, including his decision to become a full time recording artist and his current EP, "Yours Academically," chronicles that transition. Watch the video, dance along and find your inner roo!
Photographs courtesy of Nic Vevers, The Australian National University.
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview, news, reviews and your host are here: www.canartsaveus.com
Kangaroo Time Club Mix, video - www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoSYO3fApEc
Discover @WeliMusic on Instagram, check his bio for links, including Spotify or head to Youtube:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCBpUI9oMUYmIl0wcTsD1Lkw
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? Today
(00:50):
I'm exploring the joy of joyfulmadness. My guest today is Dr.
Weliton Menário Costa, alsoknown as Weli, both as a
scientist and as a recordingartist. Weli is this year's
global winner of the dance yourPhD prize, which is a joyful
collaboration of science and thearts. Dance is used to
(01:11):
communicate the findings of whatcan be complex academic research
and to reach new audiences. It'sa tough but inspired challenge
and a joy to see sciencecelebrated through the arts. The
visibility of this relationshipis especially important when a
divisive political approachbetween the arts and sciences
(01:31):
has dominated here in the UK,but it's not a natural division.
What is and isn't natural isalso a critical finding in
Weli's scientific work. Histhree year study of wild
kangaroos has evidenced thenatural diversity of kangaroo
personalities and withoutconflict. He was able to
(01:54):
conclude kangaroos are differentjust like us. Differences happen
in all species. It's justnatural. And this is what you
see in Weli's video, a groupdance including a fantastic
Drag Queen, Brazilian funk,classical Indian and ballet
dancers all performing to his ownsong Kangaroo Time. Weli's own
(02:15):
lived experience as a young gayman growing up in a conservative
rural area of Brazil alerted himto being different and how the
social environment can alsoshape our behavior. His life
experience changed dramaticallyin Australia where he now lives
after he first arrived intoCanberra's multicultural
(02:36):
Festival, the largestcelebration of diversity in
Australia. This iconic three dayfestival brings together more
than 170 multiculturalcommunities, and celebrates
diversity through food, art,song and dance. So let's hop to
(02:56):
it kangaroo style and talk moreabout joyful madness to one of
the world's leading researchersin kangaroo behavior and now a
recording artist. And you neverknow you may unleash your inner
roo too. Hello Weli and welcometo Can art save us?
Hello Paula. Thanks so much forhaving me.
(03:18):
I'm so pleased I've really beenitching to talk to you. It was
so exciting when I saw you winthe prize. So thank you again
for joining me and all the wayfrom Australia.
Thank you so much. I'm veryhappy to be here today with
you're one of the first peopleto message me actually. It took
a little while before we could actually have the conversation
(03:40):
but I'm very pleased to be heretoday. Yeah,
no, that's fantastic. Because ofcourse, things exploded for you.
But yes, I love this richcollaboration of Arts and
Science. So I was thrilled Icould reach you quickly. So
Weli, how transformative hasthis been for you in terms of
(04:01):
this collaboration of Arts andScience? Has it really impacted
your scientific work?
It has impacted my life ingeneral. And I think it did
impact the science as a whole aswell that goes beyond some of my
own research. I've got so manybeautiful messages from
(04:24):
researchers in the world, people thanking me for for for
bringing diversity, for bringingin a different take, novelty as
well, a way of doingcommunication. Scientists
sometimes think writing anarticle and we feature in a
newspaper it's enoughcommunication. When they saw a
(04:45):
music video with music,original music, dancers that also
normally traditionally are notseen together sharing the same
stage and all that in the nameof science everybody got so
excited and and I just receivedthe most beautiful messages. I
think the whole process ofmaking this video in general,
(05:08):
it's it's to talk about theKangaroo Time, which is my time
living abroad, living as a gayman in a workspace as a Latin
as an immigrant toAustralia. But it really is a
reconnection to myself as wellas a child I have always been very
passionate about creativity,like creative arts performances,
(05:32):
singing but as you mentioned, inthe introduction, I didn't have
the opportunity to do much ofthat as a kid because one, we
come from the countryside and wedidn't have access to arts or to
dance schools or to singingschools. My family is not
musical. And, and my hometowngenerally is not musical and neither
(05:54):
scientific but I gotopportunities in my country to
be, to do science, I was always Ihave always been a good student,
I feel like school has alwaysbeen this safe space, in that
very conservative, um where Ilived. And I got great
opportunities in science. Andwhen I was in high school, high
(06:18):
school, undergrad, I started to doresearch and in undergrad, so I
got the opportunity to leave thecountry, which was like
something I would never dreamof, because it was beyond the
scope of my life. And I learneda second language, I came to
Australia so far away from home.But I was still missing this
(06:38):
connection to my creativity,with creative writing, song
writing, singing, dancing. Soafter the end of my PhD, I
really knew that was the timefor me to get back into being
more creative and feeling morelike connecting to this
community artistic community. Sostart dancing, more singing
(07:01):
more. But all of that was stillseparate from the science. And
then, with this one project, theDance Your PhD project, could unify all
the different communities eithersocially, so the queer the Latin
all the internationalcommunities, and the
Australian communities I'veexperienced here, but also my
interests. So the science, thesinging, the dancing, and it
(07:25):
really just felt like thebiggest achievement. I had
finished the PhD I had beenthrough my graduation, but the
feeling of pride from the day of shooting
that video was beyond anyfeeling of accomplishment I've
had I've ever had in my lifejust because it felt right. It
(07:45):
felt unique. And it feltcompletely me.
Yeah, it's fantastic. And itreally is a huge achievement.
And congratulations again,because of course, distilling
such complex work, and it was atleast a three year study, wasn't
it, into a dance is prettychallenging. So it's it's really
(08:10):
fascinating to hear, though, theparallels in your own life with
this study of these wildkangaroos because you're someone
that embraces diversity. Andobviously, you've studied the
diverse personalities ofkangaroos. And also you clearly,
(08:31):
like the kangaroos you studied,have skills in adjustment. For
the listeners, would you like toexpand on that a little
perhaps? Was it surprising foryou to see that kangaroos had
such good skills in adjusting todifferent groups despite changes
(08:57):
in personalities?
Behavior as a scientist andtalking about the field of
animal behavior, behavior isusually treated as something
quite plastic. So it's expectedthat the behavior will change
with the environment eitherbecause it got hotter or colder
or there was more green or lessor less green or grass. And
(09:22):
similarly to the environment andand I think observing indicate
the education system itself andeducation system is about
shaping individuals into somethingthat is what the society expects
you to behave like or like howyour parents also educate you to
have certain behaviors incertain places and to respect
(09:44):
those rules. It brings to ourscientists, this clear idea that
hey, animals will also be ableto adjust. I think what was more
surprising and it's a bit morenovel, is that actually
behaviors consistent. Thepersonality is there and the
individuals are different. ButI guess what it is, what's very
(10:12):
interesting about the type ofresearch I did was I was
studying wild animals one, andtwo, I was looking at
personality. But by looking atpersonality, I found evidence of
personality but consistency at the same time, in the same
trait, I also found evidence forplasticity for individuals
changing groups. As they moveacross different groups, they
(10:36):
also adjust behavior. So theybasically have personality, but
they also adjust. And thebaseline is the personality. So
everything starts with thatintrinsic response. And then
they start observing what'shappening, getting the cues from
the group. And then they adjust so this interplay between
(11:00):
plasticity and personality wasthe most, I wouldn't say
surprising, in general, but kindof was surprising. I wasn't
really, really expecting it, Ithought, most of the time, I
wouldn't be measuringpersonality. But once I had
been testing different groups, Ithought I was going to be
(11:20):
measuring plasticity. But I foundevidence for both in all the
different tests I had, with thedifference that when I was
testing the whole group, I foundmore evidence for plasticity. So
they in groups prepared toadjust their behavior, when
they're by themselves, they tendto follow another personality.
(11:43):
And that was really, reallyinteresting. When we were in
groups of friends, and we allhave friends from diverse, Oh, I
have friends from differentservers, I have the scientists,
I have the dancers, I have thesingers and musicians, the
people from my childhood who is not educated. Anyhow, my
grandparents who don't even knowhow to read or write. So my behavior,
(12:04):
it does change as I change thesedifferent groups. If like if I'm
in the group with other individualsor with more female people in, in
the group, or male, there is gender interplay as well. We
tested that for kangaroos as awhole. And we found that
actually, they adjust on thepersonality of each other. So
(12:29):
the group responses, on average,are what best predicts, I guess,
group responses is an average ofthe personality of everybody,
regardless of whether they'reolder, or younger. Or if they're
more, they're more males or morefemales or if it I guess, more
(12:50):
extreme personalities as well.We adjust and we have, we have
leaders right in our way ofsociety. And we tend to follow
usually one type of behavior,while the kangaroos
don't have that they just don'treally care as well who they are
in a group with they don'treally. It doesn't seem like
(13:12):
they have ways to identify theindividual, and inform those
social forms like friendships,they are more interested in
socializing as a whole. So itdoesn't matter what the
individual is, if ther're, really, if they're
keen or not. Or if it's older,younger, if it's more male or
(13:35):
female, they can be found in anygroups in their place where they
live. So I think, what's more ofdriving more group composition
is the kangaroos connection tothe place where they stay, to the
land, so they have this homeranges and its habitat is very
strong, and they stay there. Butholdings with those who overlap
(14:00):
that that place they are likelyto be found together in groups.
And they would adjust thatbehavior to literally any
kangaroo if they are in the samegroup. Yeah,
I really found this fascinatingsocial plasticity of kangaroo
behavior. It just seems highlyskilled as a way of avoiding
(14:23):
conflict and being able toadjust so well. And it certainly
raised the question in my mindwhether social plasticity is
something that the humanpopulation could understand
better, and in terms of wellbeing.
Yeah, I think we do understandit better, but somehow we mess
(14:47):
it up. I don't know how but likebiologically speaking kangaroos,
they exist for a longer periodof time. And I guess if you
think of an evolution In theevolution of sociality, their
sociality is a bit older thanours, meaning less
(15:10):
complex as well, so ours isextremely complex. But when you
get something less complex, andthen something more complex, but
what is less complex isincorporated in what's more
complex, so it's in there, thatwe have more things going on.
It's just that I guess, wereflect a lot and think a lot
(15:32):
about this sociality itself, andwe modify it based on culture,
and that we're also beinginfluenced by religion, and
morality, and ideas of moralityand all of that. And how you
separate as well people intoinstitutions into social
classes. So it just makes it somuch more complicated. While
(15:53):
the kangaroos, they don't haveany of that they just live in
the place where they are. Andtheir only job really is to
survive. So their main job is toeat and if there isn't food,
then they have an issue. Or ifthere's competition, then they
have an issue. But in general,if there is someone trying to
(16:14):
eat them, they have a big issue.And that's where sociality come
comes into place. And I feellike even for our society or any
other social animal society,sociality or having other kin,
or individuals from thesame species is not necessarily
kin, in the same areas, it's,it's beneficial because it's a
(16:38):
it's a security, not a socialsecurity, but a security to
their own lives. So it's quite,it's quite a different
how far we've come as aspecies compared to those
kangaroos. But I guess all thesecomplexities are brought into
our lives. Compared to howsimple a kangaroo life still is,
(17:03):
is what really define defines, Iguess, the way we adjust as
well to each other.
Yeah, there's such a lot tolearn from this, because as you
say, you know, the complexitiesof human life and existence are
(17:24):
so deep and multi layered. Andit you know, it seems that human
groups now either celebrate orresist diversity, that
complexity can bring so many,unfortunately, different
barriers that can becomeharmful. But you were you were
(17:44):
witnessing a fluidity betweendiversity and conformity in your
study. And that's what reallyinterested me that there's an
intelligence in that, isn'tthere been able to to adjust and
to not make either diversity orconformity a conflict?
(18:06):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. They justexist in harmony in their space.
And again, again, they wereconnected to that place to that
land, and then all the kangarooswill also be connected to the land.
And then they're sharing thatspace. And that's, they're
clear, they're sharingbecause they need to share. It's
(18:32):
their strategy, like thesociality itself it's, it's their
Social Security is there a livesecurity, I guess, it helps
their survival helps them copewith the stress of being alone
in a place where a predator could come and eat you. So we
are used to having a separate spaceand we want our separate space.
(18:56):
And we've learned since a kid thatwhat defines us is our work because
work will help us to provide forour family to buy our own house,
and again, that's, you're separating yourself from
all of those other people fromthat land from and I'll
(19:17):
translate word land for street,for example, your street, you
know, we live in the samestreet, which is our habitat,
but we all live in differentboxes, which are houses while
kangaroos, they just literallyshare the streets. So they will
be on the street. If I can makethat analogy type of thing. And,
(19:40):
and they're just very respectfulof that, because that's how
their life is and why for us, Iguess in ancient times, if you
think of Aboriginal culture,indigenous, Native people, for
example, they've lived like thatfor many years. I guess European
at some times we have aswell, but we've grown to want to
(20:04):
buy things and, and to callthings ours and, and to separate
us from the others into causesand to join ourselves with the
others who have a similar sociallife of similar interest in
needs and that, a lot ofkangaroos, they are just
(20:25):
concerned about eating the grassand making the next year
hopefully with a kid you
know. It's really interestingbecause it's a shared
responsibility of theenvironmental space with one
interest that everybodysurvives. And of course, design
and architecture has such a lotto do with human existence and
(20:47):
exactly what you said, you know,buying your one property or your
apartment, these actually becomeconditions of separation and
isolation. Unfortunately, we dohave a pandemic of loneliness.
So I do find this study,incredibly important to draw on
(21:07):
in terms of how we can improveconditions and well being for
ourselves, too. I wondered,Weli, if you could explain to
the listeners in view ofeverything we've said so far,
what your role as a dancer wasin the video, compared to your
(21:28):
lovely array of diverse anddifferent dancers? How would you
explain to the listeners whatwas going on, and with your role
in particular.
In the video, we had differentthings happening, some of them
were entertainment, some of themwere very linked to some key
messages I wanted to show from thevideo, I think the main key
(21:51):
message and the reason why I hadso many diverse dances was
because I want to, as I say,show diversity in kangaroo
personality differences in howthey respond, there are due
to intrinsic responses. I wasin some parts of the video a
researcher, in some parts of thevideo, I was also playing a
(22:15):
kangaroo in the socialdynamics. I think there is like
halfway through the video,that's the part that I'm like a
soloist, I'm transiting aredancing across different groups.
So as I move from a group ofballet dancers to a group of
summer dancers and then to hiphop, I adjust my steps, and
(22:36):
that's, it's in one take aswell so you can have that clear
message of me adjusting, but itsmy dance steps that that really
represents the scienceaspects, it's my behavior,
right? So thinking of thedifferent groups as groups that
behave in a different way as Itransit across those groups, I
(23:00):
adjust the behavior. And thenjust after I communicate that,
that I adjust my behavior, Ishow that everybody actually
adjusts their behavior. So theyhave like those, they are groups
adjusting to each other, as wellas ensuring that it's all quite
democratic really. Yeah, so themain message of the video is to
(23:22):
show kangaroos havepersonalities. And that's why we
got this from different styles,what I really want it to show
us is this spectrum, right. So apersonality happens in the
spectrum. So you have anindividual that is less
responsible, the way tointroduce more responsive
individuals is interesting. And to show that diversity I was I
thought, Canberra will be mypopulation. So Canberra, the
(23:45):
city, and there is a populationand many dancers inside this
population. So who are they? Itried to get as many dancers and
for that I had to go todifferent places to different
dance schools and invite peopleon top of my actual friends,
because I have a lot of friendswho are dancers, a Latin or
related style or Brazilian, so Ihad my friends but then I had to
(24:08):
go beyond and get likecontemporary ballet and all of
that as well. Which was amazing.And then we show as these
individuals group together,they also adjust their behavior.
So they do have personalities,you can see that very clearly on
the way they move. Obviously,someone who twerks is
(24:30):
completely different fromsomeone who does ballet. And the
costumes are very different and Ithink was one of the highlights
of the video seeing all thesebeautiful costumes as well. So
you can track the differentpersonalities really well based
on how they dress and how theymove. But at the end, at some
moments, you cannot really tellwhich dances style it is because
(24:53):
they're just mixing up andadjusting steps to each other.
Yeah, it's a really fantasticand clever illustration,
obviously of your of yourfindings, and especially clever
to make it so simple, which isby no means easy. So yes, for
(25:16):
listeners do go and look thevideo up, you'll certainly find
it easily on YouTube. So pickingup on this really interesting
skill of adjustment and socialplasticity, I'm interested in
your experiences of adjustment.So when you were growing up in
(25:40):
Brazil, and you've already said,you know, you've you've said
before, in interviews, you youcome from a very humble family,
there were differences inexposure to education, you
obviously had a really goodeducation. But I think you
mentioned your grandparentsdidn't, for example, so I'm
(26:01):
interested in how easy ordifficult was it for you to
adjust when you wanted to dosomething that was different
that was perhaps going againstthe grain or the traditions of
of what your family expectationsmight be? And how were your
(26:24):
family able to adjust to youdoing something so different?
Yeah, that's such a goodquestion. There are layers and
layers of answers. I think goingback as a kid, I didn't, I just,
I didn't have a strong voice,right. So my whole journey was
trying to find this voice. Andonce I got it, I tried to go
(26:47):
back and reconnect to myself,and just to recreate those
connections with my actualinterests and try to convey what
I actually want to say and, andbe what I want to be. And
respectfully, involve myfamily as well. But one thing
(27:07):
I've learned is that I didn'thave to get them adjusted to me,
sometimes it would be justeasier if I went to a group,
where being there will beeasier. As you say, it's very
conservative. And one of therules of being conservative is
that you don't think about it asmuch. It's just how it is. And
(27:33):
sometimes you just need to leavethat place. And, and go to a
place where it's lessconservative, and then
experience the freedom ofexpressing yourself and, and the
safety of doing so as well, tobuild up that confidence in your
voice. So you can come back andrespectfully, I guess, I say
(27:57):
respectfully, because I'mtalking about family and you
don't want to do, you want themto be with you, right? You don't
want to just to go and and andsay hey, this is me. You are
wrong, you ruined my life, mychildhood and things like that.
You they're just yourcontinuation, right to life. And
(28:17):
to those relationships, at leastI want that to happen. That in
certain aspects, it's justeasier if I just, you know,
don't do everything with themand, and do my life to the
fullest with a group of friendswho are like me. But as a kid
it was one of the firstthings that I that I remember
(28:41):
feeling was just like thisoppression, just like I couldn't
even breathe. Like in terms ofdecision making, I couldn't
decide what it was going to do.Because every decision I would
take, like if I'm playing andthere's like a doll and I would
grab the doll and I was like,Oh, that's a girl's thing. And
that happened so much. And I waslike, okay, maybe I shouldn't
(29:03):
decide where I'm going to playwith. Or if I were dancing, or
like singing, maybe I shouldn'tdecide if I want to dance or
sing. Maybe I should just not doanything and and when they tell
me to do something, then I'll goand do or if I really really
(29:25):
want to be more imaginative if Iwant to move, I want to dance, if
I want to play with dolls orsomething. I'm just going to
withdraw myself and try tohide myself while I do that. So
I've always done kind of like Ialways felt that there was this
Weli A and Weli B and Ithink that was one of the first
conversations I had with mypsychologist. I went to therapy I
(29:46):
think I was like 25 and I wasexhausted of having Weli A and
Weli B. Weli A would be what I presented to people and
Weli B was what I thought Iwas at work and that people
didn't know but once I startedtalking to people more, I
(30:07):
realized that Weli A and Weli Bhas always been one Weli. And
that people would never, theywould also stop making
comments on Well B, but they would know that it was
there. Which was a bit funny toknow that they were actually
accepting, in a way, I justwasn't aware that they were.
(30:30):
Yeah, it's it's a reallyinteresting description, but
also a difficult one in that itsounds like a confusing and
fearful time for a child,especially, you know, when you
become fearful of decisionmaking, even around things like
(30:51):
what what toys should I playwith? You're becoming very
aware of identity associations.Would you agree there was fear
involved? And from that point ofview, how did you find the
(31:11):
courage to become who you are?
Oh, my gosh, that was a long,long, long, long process. I
think if there was fear, therewas panic, there was like, the
worst anxiety that I still livewith. I tried to make use of
(31:32):
school and school is a greatplace because people are usually
more shy. It did feel like I waskilling half of me, because I'm
also performative. And I like, being public, like, I didn't know
my creative interests, theyinvolve the public a lot,
(31:53):
because it's dancing, singing,right. And I did not dance and
sing for most of mygrowing up, I would do it just in
the shower. Because I rememberthinking, hey, if I go in front
of the class, or even like topresent, present a seminar on
something, I wouldn't gothinking people will think I was gay.
(32:14):
And if they got to me, I waslike, Hey, can I ask you a
question, the first thing thatwould come to my mind is that
they would ask if I were gay,like, sometimes they would just
ask something about the topic.But it was extreme anxiety to
the point that I would avoid,like, I would avoid going to
social circles, I wouldn'tever go out. My friends were
(32:35):
only to the time it was inclassroom or at work in the
office, I had like the bestfriends, I wouldn't go out with
them, I wouldn't hang out withthem. And I would always know
that at any time, that we're notlike that, or we didn't have a
secure topic that we're talkingabout, let's say it's talking
(32:56):
about science you were talkingabout, I don't know the music of
someone else. It could be couldbe that they were were talking
about relationships or dating soI think when I was in the closet
it wasn't I wasn't pretendingto be straight person, I was
pretending to be asexual. Iwasn't really talking about
(33:17):
anything. And, and then I justsaw this idea that I was a nerd.
Because I saw in the movies orsomething like that there is
like this image linked. So I waslike, Oh, you don't know if he's
gay or he's a nerd, or if heactually has homework. So that
was what I buried myself in on.And I think, well, there was in
(33:44):
on top of that I was alsoreligious, right? And I
remember, like, from 15, to 20to 25, I don't know, I used to
pray for God for fixing me or either that or to kill me. And I
never thought I was going tomake it, it's hard but like, I never
thought I was going to make it tomy 20s and then I made it to my 20s
(34:07):
I was like fuck, what am I goingto do? I was just very lucky
that I got a break from my worldand for all those things I was I
was living. And no one reallyknows like from from back
home because I was not tellingthat to anybody. I was just
(34:27):
living that in my head right.And I think the first
breakthrough was like I got ascholarship to come to the other
side of the world and I gothere I was like, what, it's
like living in the movie. Oneof the first people I chatted,
and I was like I was 21, 22and this is actually crazy how
(34:50):
far I went from 22 to 25for example, like it was like so
much learning. Anyway, I wentto a priest to confess that I was
gay for the first time. So thefirst person I told I was gay
was a priest in Australia, inEnglish, I didn't even know
English, and he was actuallyreally cool. And he suggested a
(35:13):
psychologist, and thepsychologist was gay. And I was
like, Okay, why is this priestdoing this. And then I was like,
I shut myself from those twopeople, and from my friends and
everybody, then my scholarshipfinished, I went to Brazil, and
I was, like, panicing. And it wasthe first time I returned to
Brazil from something big,right. And then there was like,
(35:35):
all these girls with, like,interests and like, and this is
so cool. But like, um, I don'tknow, I don't know, I don't
know, I don't know. Like, somuch anxiety. And then I started
talking to my best friend fromhigh school, Carolle. And when,
and this was like, 23, I think23 or 24.
(35:59):
And when we were 18, she toldme, she was dating one of our
friends, and she is lesbian. AndI didn't know we used to be
like, very close friends. Wewere born three days apart, we
did high school together. And Ididn't know that we were like,
going through high school andthrough the same issues without
talking to each other. But whenshe told me, I didn't have the
(36:21):
bravery to tell her that when Iwas 24, we had we've had like,
lived a very similar life. So wedone high school together. And
then she went to a differentuniversity, I stayed at mine.
And then I did science withoutthe board. So I left the
country and she left the country.And then we had like, this very
similar background. So we'restill like, talking a lot. And
(36:43):
then I was like, hey, I need totell you something, I need to be
brave. And, and as she was like,the first person, and she was
like, so lovely. And she gave meso much support, always checking
on me. And, and I think thewhole realization of that
process with Jesus, and I don'tconsider myself religious, or go
(37:04):
to church anymore. But I feellike if God answered my prayers
he didn't give me what Iasked. He gave me the
opportunity, which was like,leaving Brazil and my hometown
because that's amiracle. You can say that
because you don't do that, likecoming from where I came from.
(37:24):
So once I was reflectingon I was like, Okay, maybe I've
got my miracle. And my miracleis just to show me that I can be
free. And in Australia was thefirst place I've seen gay guys
holding hands in the street andpeople fighting for, like, gay
equality, and same sex marriage.Like, that was like, outrageous
(37:50):
when I got here it was I feltoutrageous. And I was like, Oh,
wow, is this really happening? Itwas like, so shocking. And then
I needed like, three, four yearsto process all that. And then
when I processed it, I just made these healthier
links, I guess, and, and justrealizing that, no, there's life
(38:10):
beyond these things, I waslocking myself inside my head,
and I can start sharing more,and I should share more and,
and, and I think the realizationthat I was just like,
scared, I was just too scaredand that I needed to be brave
and to stand up for myself. And,and I started doing that then
(38:33):
never stopped. And look at menow.
Yeah, it's, it's absolutelyfantastic, because you have
shown immense courage. And isn'tit sad when you think there were
two children or young people atschool that were actually you
know, best friends really closefriends who were both having to
(38:57):
lock away identities, and youknow, and you couldn't share
that with each other until somuch later. It's really raising
two important points, I thinkthroughout all of your work as a
science as a scientist and alsoas a recording artist, and I
(39:17):
think that's the themes ofacceptance and also freedom. So,
when we think about the kangaroostudy, the wild kangaroos seem
to have a lovely experiencearound acceptance, it's part of
their social plasticity. Theredoesn't seem to be a conflict
(39:41):
around personalities and havingto dominate or insist on
conformity it all comes back toadjustment and acceptance. And
I'm really interested in how youreached acceptance. So I know that
you've explained that process but I also wondered if
(40:06):
meditation was a part of thatprocess, because meditation is
also a very useful way ofunderstanding acceptance. Is
that something that's relevantto you?
Oh, wow, you touched like, whatsaved my life basically. I said,
Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's,that's a good question. Yes,
(40:31):
100%. Well, I started doingtherapists, but I never felt
like they were long enough and,and they were also expensive.
And then, after my PhD myPhD was a very different
journey. And I didn't feel likeas a scientist as though again,
(40:52):
I didn't feel like I did orfit right in. Like, I love my
department and love everybodyand I respect everybody. But
we're very different people. When I came out, I became more
performative and
and feeling the need to talkmore, but again, there wasn't
(41:13):
much of that space at work, orall of that. And like writing my
thesis writing in a secondlanguage was, and I was
living like, I was doing a PhDand coming out and exploring my
creative side and, and talkingto my family, and, you know, all
(41:34):
that at the same time. Andcoming from what I just told
you, like this whole journey, oflike, hating myself to study,
realize that I should bebrave, but I wasn't feeling
like I was brave, right. And itwas incredibly difficult for my
mental health. So in the lastyear of my PhD, I broke, I shut
(41:56):
down. And like, for two months,I took a medical leave. And I
was just like, laying on my bedand looking at the roof, and
thinking, how can I, how am Igoing to get out? Like, how am I
going to get up, so I wasreally, really broken. And that
was it, this is gonna soundweird, but I'm, in a way
(42:19):
thankful for COVID. I know how horrible it was for the
world, how many people died. AndI don't want to take out of it.
But like, one month before COVIDhit, I was at my worse, and I
was in bed, and I couldn't, Ididn't have energy to do
anything. And then the whole thing where everything was like going
(42:39):
at the normal speed right in theworld and then suddenly, the
whole word shuts, and the wholeword goes slow, kind of to the
same pace my brain couldprocess. So having the
COVID, at the end of my PhD wasvery beneficial, actually.
Because then people started listening more, and you would
(43:00):
work from home. So then you don'tneed to go to the office. And then I
managed to finish my thesis andI submitted it and moved to the beach,
because I really needed a space.And what I really needed was to
find a way to start feelinghappiness again. I couldn't feel
happiness at that time. And thenI started talking to people and
(43:22):
someone recommended memeditation, meditation called
Vipassana, which isbasically like purifying your
mind. So just, it's just likesilence management, a
meditation, you go there, andyou just sit and meditate for 10
days. And you don't need tocook, there's food provided. And
it's all based on donation. AndI was like, also broke, I didn't
(43:45):
have any money. So I couldn't doany therapy. I couldn't pay a
psychologist, I couldn't donothing. But there was one
meditation that was free, andyou just go there and respect
the rules sit down and meditateand, and that was my first
contact to meditation. And itchanged my whole life and I
continued doing it. And I'vedone maybe five courses now and
(44:10):
that that just like I feel likeI was just able to do to go back
and do research for anotheryear because I got another
contract. To be able to doperformance to go in front of
an audience and it was just becauseI've kind of like managed to
master my mind a little bitmore. And I was not being that
(44:32):
very reactive person. And thathas been so it helped me to set
myself back and put myselftogether. And and and as you said
it helped me to build up thatconfidence in myself, I
guess, I guess from therealization that that things
(44:54):
change and and life is thiscraziness. It's just
impermanent. And, and and that'salright. And that's what we
are as individuals we're organism's. At the
end of the day we're just energy,right? But it's kind of like,
(45:15):
it's a process. I myself have been through so much
and, and I think having theopportunity to sit down and do
the 10 days in silence, noexternal influences. I'm just
with me on my island. I'm noteven thinking or trying to
process anything, I'm literallyobserving what's happening in my
(45:37):
body at the right moment. That'sthe only challenge, the only
thing you need to do. Thatreally helped me to learn what
it is being present. And, andand let things go.
Yeah, I mean, this is reallycritical, isn't it to our mental
(45:58):
health, and we're not all maybeas aware as we could be that we
can take care of our minds, inthe same way we do our bodies,
you know, we can take ourselvesoff to the gym for our physical
health. But there's so much wecan do for our mental health and
(46:19):
space is really important, isn'tit? Silence and space for
reflection is really important.And would you say, it's through
that practice, that you couldalmost train your mind to become
more responsive, rather thanreactive? Did it help you move
(46:42):
away from panic and anxiety? Mm
hmm. So much, I'm still well, Ihaven't been, or the anxiety
keeps coming back because it'show my brain is structured is
still, I guess, with morepractice in the meditation, it
becomes easier and easier andeasier. I do still live in the
world that is crazy. It's just alot of things happening. And I
(47:06):
don't feel like I've stepped myfeet into the, that one ground
where I want to stay, I'm stilltransitioning. Like the things
before I was transitioningcountries, and then now it's
kind of transitioning careers,and trying to establish myself
more in the music business, butit's still a lot to do, because,
(47:27):
as I say, I didn't performmuch as a kid, right. So there's
still a lot to be feared, whichis exciting, obviously. But
that's why I'm doing it becauseit's exciting. But it's still a
lot of change. Right? And, andonce I reach into a space where
I'm bit more stable, andhopefully, in the next two
(47:47):
weeks, I will then the practicealso, it will help with the
practice. But 100% I would nothave been able to do half of the
things that did in the last year ifit wasn't because of the
meditation and, and effort aswell, in working on my mental
health. I think mind is thefirst thing. If you if you're
(48:12):
anxious about your future, ifyou're not feeling like you can
do things, sit down, meditate,you need that thought to go
away. Because if that thought goesaway, you can do anything.
Yeah, absolutely. It's such animportant example, for people to
hear and hopefully help peoplethat may not have thought about
(48:33):
that practice for themselveseven. And it's equally
interesting Welli that ofcourse, we're talking about the
importance of space and silence as part of the
meditative space and practice.And of course, creativity
expression, music, singing,dancing is equally healthy,
(48:57):
albeit a noisier space. And so,if we move to your choice of
actually focusing on your music,career, your artistry as a
singer songwriter, again, hasthat been a courageous shift to
(49:20):
make a decision about science,or singing? And how helpful has
it been in terms of continuingto improve your sense of self
expression and identity?
Another great question. It isdifficult, like how I feel like
(49:46):
when I won the Dance Your PhDcompetition, which is like a
competition for scientists andscientists only. And it's meant
to stay inside the rounds ofscience as well and it's a sign
it's literally like a sciencecommunication competition. But
what I wanted from that, as anartist was that it would go
(50:08):
beyond science and how would weuse that competition to
transform my science into mymusic career. And that's why I
worked so hard in the music andnetworking and making a video
that would cause an impact aswell beyond the scientific
community. I feel like a bit butat the end of the day, winning
(50:34):
the Dance Your PhD was the highestpoint of the mountain called
'academic career'. That's wheneverybody knew Dr. Weli from
like, all the universities inthe world, everybody knew what I
studied. People would read mythesis and my papers. Meaning it
(50:54):
would be the best opportunityto get the best postdoc in in
in, in probably the one of thebest labs in the world. And what
did I tell everybody? What did Itell everybody? At that level?
I'm quitting academia. Don'ttext me for jobs.
(51:21):
Don't message me about papers.And those people are not people
who could give me some help inthe music career.
(51:42):
So it's kind of like it wasvery, I think it was the bravest
thing I've ever done. My sisterand I were talking about that. I
was like, I can't believe you,you're brave about it. And you did
it. And I'm very proud of you.And I was like, thank you. I did
it and now I need to make the otherside work and spread the news
(52:03):
to the music people and see ifanyone wants to help. So far
I got one chat with one musicagency and and hopefully we'll get
to produce another version ofKangaroo Time. Maybe have a
slightly different name. But Idid think the clubs need a track
(52:24):
called kangaroo something in
this country called Australia.
Yeah, yeah, oh, that would begreat. But it's interesting,
because this does come back tocourage and of course, the roots
of courage, or in vulnerability.So all the examples you've given
(52:50):
us today, right from a child,you know, fears around identity
and decision making, and so on.And those roots in fear and
vulnerability, ultimate,ultimately cultivate courage,
because once you finally makedecisions to, for example, be
who you are, or leave Brazil, tomove to Australia, or to do
(53:12):
something that's completelydifferent to your family, is all
about cultivating courage. Andof course, you've also found
tools to support that. So forexample, meditation, and then
having the freedom to flourishas a creative artist. So the EP
(53:35):
that's currently out, there'sfour tracks, and I understand
the EP chronicles thattransition that you've just been
talking about that departurefrom academia to a music career,
and I know the listeners canfind your channel and all of
these videos and songs onYouTube, which I'll signposts on
(53:56):
your episode page, would youlike to give us an overview of
those four tracks and how itchronicles that that transition?
I did notice that there's a recurring sentence, Are you
feeling all right? And Iwondered if you'd like to expand
(54:17):
on that.
I got goosebumps! Yes, thankyou. I'd love to share about
this currently, because it'sit's main piece really is a
letter. I think to myself firstand then to anyone else who is
facing the need for a change intheir lives, regardless of being
(54:39):
a career change or relationshipchange or even at the end of the
day it comes to the bottom line ofif there's something your three
year old self wanted to doand you're in your 30s or older
and you still haven't done it,and you see your day to day life
taking you into a completelydifferent direction and then
(55:01):
soon you're going to be 50, 60 andyou never do that. But now is
the moment and you feel like,oh, maybe I shouldn't do it now
then do it. Now I think that'swhat the main message of the EP
is. This EP starts with KangarooTime. And the track the track,
number one is also the trackused for the Dance Your PhD
(55:21):
competition on purpose, becausethat's a big celebration, I feel
like the best part oftransition is that you get
the time to process as well, allthose experiences you've had in
this thing you're transitioningfrom, leaving behind, because you
learned so much. And it got to apoint that you either learned
(55:44):
everything about it or whateverthe day to day life in that
doesn't match more who you areas an individual anymore. And I
feel like that's what happenedto me after my PhD was the
routine of a scientist, itwasn't very clear for me before
I started a PhD. But it was veryclear after I finished a PhD
(56:04):
after going through the wholeprocess. It's really about
repetition, and really abouttesting and re-testing the same
question. And it's obvious forme now, why, it's because science
is about the natural world, and is about finding the truth in
affects. And, and it's limitedby reality. And that's how it's
(56:25):
supposed to be right. But therepetition itself didn't work
well with let's say, mypersonality, or how my brain
experiences happiness and excitement, I do need things to
be finished quicker. And I needto move on to the next thing
quicker. And I find that inmusic, like writing a song is a
(56:47):
big process and recording andhaving it ready to to to be
released is a big process aswell. But it happens that it's
more collaborative, it's easierfor you to do that with other
people. One because people willdo music, they appreciate that
maybe more than the scientistsitself that lock themselves in
the computer just tried to dothat whole project by themselves
(57:10):
and expect everybody to do itlike that. And, and also, it's
like it's a big process, butit's also how many words are in
the song compared to how manywords are in the paper. So you
can just get to the bottom of itquicker. So first song is big
celebration of that time. Andthen the second song is called
(57:33):
Shall We Let It Go. It's theactual name tells us what it is.
It's just like going personallyinto answering that question
that is recurring across thetracks. Are you feeling right?
In the first track, you're surrounded by mates? Are you
feeling alright? It's just aplay on alright, just kind
(57:54):
of like to rhyme with all theverses that came before it,
the verses describing kangaroofights in a queer way. And then
I use you're surrounded by matesand use the word mates because
we're in Australia and it meansyou're in the group right?
Surrounded by mates. And thenare you feeling alright? Is that
is just taking that taking that to myself that Weli, Are you
(58:18):
feeling alright, you're here,you're in this group, your a
scientist, you're in this department. You're doing this
fieldwork, but are you reallyfeeling alright? And it was a
time that I was actually notfeeling alright. So the
second track, the firsttrack finishes with Weli, are
you feeling alright? And then the second track starts
with Well, are you feelingAlright? And the answer is,
(58:40):
the answer for that is I stoppedfeeling calm, shall we let it go.
And then it's really a track that it could be useful like
breakups, I would call it like abreak free anthem. And I just go
more personal and say, I got tothis point that it's not about
being right or wrong. I'mactually not feeling calm. I'm
(59:02):
not feeling satisfied with thesituation that is in here. I
should just let it go. And kindof like having that as a
conversation. And then it movesto track number three. It's
basically an interlude where I touch base into the transition
actually the need fortransitioning between academia
(59:23):
into a new reality as areflection. There isn't it's not
extracted as a song. There's alittle bit of singing there, but
it's really a weird, reflectivetrack. That leads us to the last
record on the album, and that's avery interesting track. It's in
(59:45):
reggaeton,it's I sing it inSpanish. It was the first time I
sang in Spanish ever in my life.And that song has nothing to do
with anything back. And thattrack is what I called the new,
the new reality itself,it's it's it's a very
(01:00:06):
imaginative story that contrastsand it's imaginative for a
reason, because I wanted it tocontrast a lot with the
empiricism of science. So it'sbasically leaving this ground of
research and being empirical and in touch with reality
and moving to something thatcould be anything like very
(01:00:29):
imaginative or creative. AndI tarted playing with the word
doctor. And it takes me back tomy hometown where my mom would
tell her friend, hey, my son isa doctor, and they think I'm a
magical doctor, because theydon't know what a PhD is. Yeah,
and the story itself is just agirl in Australia who loves
(01:00:52):
reggaeton, it's 2 am shehas been there since since 10am
Sorry, 10pm. And the party goes until 7am In the morning,
but she's like tired her bodystyle because she has been
dancing for like four hoursalready. But she's got to go on
and need to dance until 7am. And she hears about this Kangaroo
Doctor Weli, who is a kangaroodoctor. And she's like, Oh,
(01:01:16):
maybe he can make a surgery. Andif I have the feet and tail of
kangaroos, I would have thatenergy. I'd have the energy to
make it until 7am. But when shefinds Weli, he's not that kind
of doctor. Yeah, it's veryimaginative.
Lovely. So it's a really lovelystory that you've you've put
together you know, that that'schronicling, obviously, your
(01:01:39):
life, your transition. And whatreally stood out to me in that
was the significance of lettinggo because, of course, that is
part of acceptance, it goes backto acceptance, whether it's
accepting ourselves, who we are,that that process, we might go
through when we feel differentto everyone else, there's that
(01:02:02):
personal acceptance. And lettinggo is so important when we have
to try and let go, maybe of thenegative things we just
repeatedly tell ourselvesautomatically, habitually. And
also letting go sometimes ofpast negative experiences. And I
(01:02:24):
think what's important aboutthat is it's not in any way, a
passive resignation is it, it'squite an active process learning
to accept, as is meditation,would you agree with that,
that part of our wellbeing andif we undertake meditation, it's
(01:02:47):
a surprisingly active process,it's not kind of being in a
trance-like state, you know,half being asleep, it's a very
awake state.
In my meditation, they call whenyou sit in, when you're meditating,
they call it working. Becauseit's a lot of work. And your
(01:03:09):
work is one task, right? It's tobe present. And it's to observe
your body and your sense yoursensations as they are in that
moment. And it's incredible whenwe start doing that, and what
our brains do, because ourbrain is so trained to do the
opposite, which is basically toget one sensation, it's that
(01:03:30):
breaking down into deeperthoughts. And then this thought
brings in the other thought, andthen brings that emotion that
have emotion of them, thenthere's really just something
that doesn't exist anymore, it'sall gone. But we somehow are trained
to bring back those memories andlike in certain situations, be
triggered by by some things andbeing triggered, basically means
(01:03:53):
you saw something or you see something that is linked through
a negative experience in thepast, and then just feel exactly
what you felt when you're inthat negative experience, or
even worse, like panic attacksand all of that. But it also
extends like when you when youthink of like not being able to
(01:04:14):
control your your mind,sometimes it's for things you
actually crave. And I neverrealized that like, the effect a
trauma has in your life issimilar to the effect of
something you want so bad. Sothats, because if whatever you
crave is not there, you're alsogoing to suffer right? If
something you have aversion to is there, you feel bad. If
(01:04:39):
something that you want is notthere, you also feel bad. So
you're just that product ofreactions and reactions and
reactions and it just feel verymiserable all the time. And I
feel like the meditation itselfhelps you or it doesn't help you
unless you do it correctly. Andthat's what's difficult about
(01:04:59):
Meditation. That's why it'scalled work as well. Because
it's gotta be able to fight thistendency of your brain taking
you into these different spacesand try to stay with the air
you're breathing right now andwith how it feels, if it feels
warm, if it's tingly, or numb,whatever sensations actually
(01:05:21):
there in his moment, and, andthen being able to continue
observing that because notbecause you've sensed it now
it's going to be there forever.So what's the next one, so just
this curiosity of what'sactually going to be the next
sensation, when the time comesfor it to for very to show up
and, and that's a lot ofeffort. It's a lot of work. It's
(01:05:44):
so hard, because we're nottrained. But the more we do it,
the more it's easy for us to letthings go, as you're saying and,
and just forgive ourselves fromthese patterns of the mind these
old, old patterns of the mind ofreacting in a way that will
actually just make us suffer,really.
(01:06:05):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.And curiosity is such an
important quality to highlightas well that we can really
benefit from being curious abouthow our own minds and our own
thinking is working. So you'vetouched on so many important
(01:06:26):
points. And you said somethingreally beautiful, I thought, well
you've said, lots of beautifulthings. But something that
really stood out to me was whenyou were talking about
adjustment in terms of yourfamily, and yourself. So when I
asked you about how your familyadjusted to you, for example,
(01:06:47):
when you wanted to be thatperson that went off and did
something different, and youreally emphasized that you
weren't interested in rejection,you really respect your family,
and it was always aboutacceptance of who they are. And
it is equally about acceptanceof who you are. And I thought
(01:07:11):
that was such an importantdescription that it goes back to
exactly what your study hasdone. It's the acceptance of
difference and the acceptance ofdiversity.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That'sbeautiful. Thanks for saying
that back.
So, um, as always, this hour,flies by, always flies by for
(01:07:37):
me because I'm hearing suchinteresting things. So I ought
to move to the end question,which is the series question and
how would you respond to thequestion, Weli, Can art save
us?
I think art is saving us every day.Art a is a creative, creative world.
(01:08:03):
And by creating, I mean, weuse our brains, our senses, our
abilities, to take somethingfrom the reality we're living, and
go somewhere else. Sometimes thereality we're living is painful.
Sometimes it's, it's notdesirable. And, and having
(01:08:29):
access to, to the craft anyforms of art in being able to
express yourself in any form ofart, you can just escape that
place, or take that place andtransform into whatever you
want. And in, in this new world,in a new project or whatever
(01:08:52):
you're creating, it may be it'sjust in your mind, you're gonna
feel safe, because that'severything that you created,
there is something you know,because it came from you. So I
think that's what art is mostimportant for. It's not the
product itself, it's what itcreates for the artist. I feel
(01:09:15):
like that the people who go andsee an artist on stage a
musician, they can experience alittle bit of that but at the
end of the day, they're goingthere to see just see the
artist, the singer, dancer, andI'm talking about that because
it's what I do, they go therebecause they connect to that in
(01:09:36):
a way and and and somehow theydidn't write that song, but that
song does take them out of thereality they are and take them
to a place that resonates todaya place of comfort. And, and in
those one hour of a show, 30minutes, I don't know the length
of a song that's them beingsaved. And that's the most
(01:10:01):
magical thing and I actually getvery emotional about talking
about talking that and, and whenI told you, I was finishing my
PhD, and I really, really missedbeing creative, it was that I
missed creating those placeswhere it could safely navigate
into and stay. And everythingthere was enough. And that's what
(01:10:22):
songwriting is, for me, that'swhat singing is for me. And in
that space, where I put myselfis so much easier to connect to
other people and to share. Andto communicate, it just really
makes it so much easier becauseI withdraw myself from myself
and withdraw myself from myreality, from my background,
(01:10:44):
from my traumas, from mycravings. And it's just really
about that beautiful community.And yeah, so I'm very thankful
for art, I don't think, ushumans could do life without it.
And I do not understand peoplewho, who do not appreciate it.
(01:11:07):
It's a really lovely example,that that you've shared with us
today. Thank you for being sobrave, as well for sharing all
of those personal dramas thatyou've had to live through, and
(01:11:27):
the courage that you've shown tomake the changes in your own
life and also for enabling sucha fantastic piece of scientific
work to reach all of us throughthe power of dance. I've learned
so much. It's such great fun todiscover the art of the kangaroo
(01:11:50):
life through dance. It's been areal pleasure Weli talking to
you today. I've really, reallyloved talking to you. And thank
you so much for everythingyou've shared, and for the
example that you're setting.
Thank you so much, Paula, Ireally, really appreciate I also
loved being here and speaking toyou and your audience. Really,
(01:12:14):
really appreciate if theaudience wants to know more
about Weli and the work,please go to my socials,
subscribe, follow whatever youwant to do. The music's on
Spotify. And if you want toreach out to me as well having a
conversation, please send me amessage and I would love to hear
(01:12:35):
your stories and, and know ifthis everything I shared in my
life resonates to you as well inany way. I really appreciate for
this space for the opportunity. Ilove doing podcasts. So really,
I'm really thankful for thisexperience.
Wonderful, and I will make surethat your link is on your
(01:13:00):
episode page so listeners canfind you easily. And just in
case there are scientistsamongst you, and you're
interested in how this dancecompetition works. It's hosted
by the American Association forthe Advancement of Science.
Thank you for listening.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? Today
(00:50):
I'm exploring the joy of joyfulmadness. My guest today is Dr.
Weliton Menário Costa, alsoknown as Weli, both as a
scientist and as a recordingartist. Weli is this year's
global winner of the dance yourPhD prize, which is a joyful
collaboration of science and thearts. Dance is used to
(01:11):
communicate the findings of whatcan be complex academic research
and to reach new audiences. It'sa tough but inspired challenge
and a joy to see sciencecelebrated through the arts. The
visibility of this relationshipis especially important when a
divisive political approachbetween the arts and sciences
(01:31):
has dominated here in the UK,but it's not a natural division.
What is and isn't natural isalso a critical finding in
Weli's scientific work. Histhree year study of wild
kangaroos has evidenced thenatural diversity of kangaroo
personalities and withoutconflict. He was able to
(01:54):
conclude kangaroos are differentjust like us. Differences happen
in all species. It's justnatural. And this is what you
see in Weli's video, a groupdance including a fantastic
Drag Queen, Brazilian funk,classical Indian and ballet
dancers all performing to his ownsong Kangaroo Time. Weli's own
(02:15):
lived experience as a young gayman growing up in a conservative
rural area of Brazil alerted himto being different and how the
social environment can alsoshape our behavior. His life
experience changed dramaticallyin Australia where he now lives
after he first arrived intoCanberra's multicultural
(02:36):
Festival, the largestcelebration of diversity in
Australia. This iconic three dayfestival brings together more
than 170 multiculturalcommunities, and celebrates
diversity through food, art,song and dance. So let's hop to
(02:56):
it kangaroo style and talk moreabout joyful madness to one of
the world's leading researchersin kangaroo behavior and now a
recording artist. And you neverknow you may unleash your inner
roo too. Hello Weli and welcometo Can art save us?
Hello Paula. Thanks so much forhaving me.
(03:18):
I'm so pleased I've really beenitching to talk to you. It was
so exciting when I saw you winthe prize. So thank you again
for joining me and all the wayfrom Australia.
Thank you so much. I'm veryhappy to be here today with
you're one of the first peopleto message me actually. It took
a little while before we could actually have the conversation
(03:40):
but I'm very pleased to be heretoday. Yeah,
no, that's fantastic. Because ofcourse, things exploded for you.
But yes, I love this richcollaboration of Arts and
Science. So I was thrilled Icould reach you quickly. So
Weli, how transformative hasthis been for you in terms of
(04:01):
this collaboration of Arts andScience? Has it really impacted
your scientific work?
It has impacted my life ingeneral. And I think it did
impact the science as a whole aswell that goes beyond some of my
own research. I've got so manybeautiful messages from
(04:24):
researchers in the world, people thanking me for for for
bringing diversity, for bringingin a different take, novelty as
well, a way of doingcommunication. Scientists
sometimes think writing anarticle and we feature in a
newspaper it's enoughcommunication. When they saw a
(04:45):
music video with music,original music, dancers that also
normally traditionally are notseen together sharing the same
stage and all that in the nameof science everybody got so
excited and and I just receivedthe most beautiful messages. I
think the whole process ofmaking this video in general,
(05:08):
it's it's to talk about theKangaroo Time, which is my time
living abroad, living as a gayman in a workspace as a Latin
as an immigrant toAustralia. But it really is a
reconnection to myself as wellas a child I have always been very
passionate about creativity,like creative arts performances,
(05:32):
singing but as you mentioned, inthe introduction, I didn't have
the opportunity to do much ofthat as a kid because one, we
come from the countryside and wedidn't have access to arts or to
dance schools or to singingschools. My family is not
musical. And, and my hometowngenerally is not musical and neither
(05:54):
scientific but I gotopportunities in my country to
be, to do science, I was always Ihave always been a good student,
I feel like school has alwaysbeen this safe space, in that
very conservative, um where Ilived. And I got great
opportunities in science. Andwhen I was in high school, high
(06:18):
school, undergrad, I started to doresearch and in undergrad, so I
got the opportunity to leave thecountry, which was like
something I would never dreamof, because it was beyond the
scope of my life. And I learneda second language, I came to
Australia so far away from home.But I was still missing this
(06:38):
connection to my creativity,with creative writing, song
writing, singing, dancing. Soafter the end of my PhD, I
really knew that was the timefor me to get back into being
more creative and feeling morelike connecting to this
community artistic community. Sostart dancing, more singing
(07:01):
more. But all of that was stillseparate from the science. And
then, with this one project, theDance Your PhD project, could unify all
the different communities eithersocially, so the queer the Latin
all the internationalcommunities, and the
Australian communities I'veexperienced here, but also my
interests. So the science, thesinging, the dancing, and it
(07:25):
really just felt like thebiggest achievement. I had
finished the PhD I had beenthrough my graduation, but the
feeling of pride from the day of shooting
that video was beyond anyfeeling of accomplishment I've
had I've ever had in my lifejust because it felt right. It
(07:45):
felt unique. And it feltcompletely me.
Yeah, it's fantastic. And itreally is a huge achievement.
And congratulations again,because of course, distilling
such complex work, and it was atleast a three year study, wasn't
it, into a dance is prettychallenging. So it's it's really
(08:10):
fascinating to hear, though, theparallels in your own life with
this study of these wildkangaroos because you're someone
that embraces diversity. Andobviously, you've studied the
diverse personalities ofkangaroos. And also you clearly,
(08:31):
like the kangaroos you studied,have skills in adjustment. For
the listeners, would you like toexpand on that a little
perhaps? Was it surprising foryou to see that kangaroos had
such good skills in adjusting todifferent groups despite changes
(08:57):
in personalities?
Behavior as a scientist andtalking about the field of
animal behavior, behavior isusually treated as something
quite plastic. So it's expectedthat the behavior will change
with the environment eitherbecause it got hotter or colder
or there was more green or lessor less green or grass. And
(09:22):
similarly to the environment andand I think observing indicate
the education system itself andeducation system is about
shaping individuals into somethingthat is what the society expects
you to behave like or like howyour parents also educate you to
have certain behaviors incertain places and to respect
(09:44):
those rules. It brings to ourscientists, this clear idea that
hey, animals will also be ableto adjust. I think what was more
surprising and it's a bit morenovel, is that actually
behaviors consistent. Thepersonality is there and the
individuals are different. ButI guess what it is, what's very
(10:12):
interesting about the type ofresearch I did was I was
studying wild animals one, andtwo, I was looking at
personality. But by looking atpersonality, I found evidence of
personality but consistency at the same time, in the same
trait, I also found evidence forplasticity for individuals
changing groups. As they moveacross different groups, they
(10:36):
also adjust behavior. So theybasically have personality, but
they also adjust. And thebaseline is the personality. So
everything starts with thatintrinsic response. And then
they start observing what'shappening, getting the cues from
the group. And then they adjust so this interplay between
(11:00):
plasticity and personality wasthe most, I wouldn't say
surprising, in general, but kindof was surprising. I wasn't
really, really expecting it, Ithought, most of the time, I
wouldn't be measuringpersonality. But once I had
been testing different groups, Ithought I was going to be
(11:20):
measuring plasticity. But I foundevidence for both in all the
different tests I had, with thedifference that when I was
testing the whole group, I foundmore evidence for plasticity. So
they in groups prepared toadjust their behavior, when
they're by themselves, they tendto follow another personality.
(11:43):
And that was really, reallyinteresting. When we were in
groups of friends, and we allhave friends from diverse, Oh, I
have friends from differentservers, I have the scientists,
I have the dancers, I have thesingers and musicians, the
people from my childhood who is not educated. Anyhow, my
grandparents who don't even knowhow to read or write. So my behavior,
(12:04):
it does change as I change thesedifferent groups. If like if I'm
in the group with other individualsor with more female people in, in
the group, or male, there is gender interplay as well. We
tested that for kangaroos as awhole. And we found that
actually, they adjust on thepersonality of each other. So
(12:29):
the group responses, on average,are what best predicts, I guess,
group responses is an average ofthe personality of everybody,
regardless of whether they'reolder, or younger. Or if they're
more, they're more males or morefemales or if it I guess, more
(12:50):
extreme personalities as well.We adjust and we have, we have
leaders right in our way ofsociety. And we tend to follow
usually one type of behavior,while the kangaroos
don't have that they just don'treally care as well who they are
in a group with they don'treally. It doesn't seem like
(13:12):
they have ways to identify theindividual, and inform those
social forms like friendships,they are more interested in
socializing as a whole. So itdoesn't matter what the
individual is, if ther're, really, if they're
keen or not. Or if it's older,younger, if it's more male or
(13:35):
female, they can be found in anygroups in their place where they
live. So I think, what's more ofdriving more group composition
is the kangaroos connection tothe place where they stay, to the
land, so they have this homeranges and its habitat is very
strong, and they stay there. Butholdings with those who overlap
(14:00):
that that place they are likelyto be found together in groups.
And they would adjust thatbehavior to literally any
kangaroo if they are in the samegroup. Yeah,
I really found this fascinatingsocial plasticity of kangaroo
behavior. It just seems highlyskilled as a way of avoiding
(14:23):
conflict and being able toadjust so well. And it certainly
raised the question in my mindwhether social plasticity is
something that the humanpopulation could understand
better, and in terms of wellbeing.
Yeah, I think we do understandit better, but somehow we mess
(14:47):
it up. I don't know how but likebiologically speaking kangaroos,
they exist for a longer periodof time. And I guess if you
think of an evolution In theevolution of sociality, their
sociality is a bit older thanours, meaning less
(15:10):
complex as well, so ours isextremely complex. But when you
get something less complex, andthen something more complex, but
what is less complex isincorporated in what's more
complex, so it's in there, thatwe have more things going on.
It's just that I guess, wereflect a lot and think a lot
(15:32):
about this sociality itself, andwe modify it based on culture,
and that we're also beinginfluenced by religion, and
morality, and ideas of moralityand all of that. And how you
separate as well people intoinstitutions into social
classes. So it just makes it somuch more complicated. While
(15:53):
the kangaroos, they don't haveany of that they just live in
the place where they are. Andtheir only job really is to
survive. So their main job is toeat and if there isn't food,
then they have an issue. Or ifthere's competition, then they
have an issue. But in general,if there is someone trying to
(16:14):
eat them, they have a big issue.And that's where sociality come
comes into place. And I feellike even for our society or any
other social animal society,sociality or having other kin,
or individuals from thesame species is not necessarily
kin, in the same areas, it's,it's beneficial because it's a
(16:38):
it's a security, not a socialsecurity, but a security to
their own lives. So it's quite,it's quite a different
how far we've come as aspecies compared to those
kangaroos. But I guess all thesecomplexities are brought into
our lives. Compared to howsimple a kangaroo life still is,
(17:03):
is what really define defines, Iguess, the way we adjust as
well to each other.
Yeah, there's such a lot tolearn from this, because as you
say, you know, the complexitiesof human life and existence are
(17:24):
so deep and multi layered. Andit you know, it seems that human
groups now either celebrate orresist diversity, that
complexity can bring so many,unfortunately, different
barriers that can becomeharmful. But you were you were
(17:44):
witnessing a fluidity betweendiversity and conformity in your
study. And that's what reallyinterested me that there's an
intelligence in that, isn'tthere been able to to adjust and
to not make either diversity orconformity a conflict?
(18:06):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. They justexist in harmony in their space.
And again, again, they wereconnected to that place to that
land, and then all the kangarooswill also be connected to the land.
And then they're sharing thatspace. And that's, they're
clear, they're sharingbecause they need to share. It's
(18:32):
their strategy, like thesociality itself it's, it's their
Social Security is there a livesecurity, I guess, it helps
their survival helps them copewith the stress of being alone
in a place where a predator could come and eat you. So we
are used to having a separate spaceand we want our separate space.
(18:56):
And we've learned since a kid thatwhat defines us is our work because
work will help us to provide forour family to buy our own house,
and again, that's, you're separating yourself from
all of those other people fromthat land from and I'll
(19:17):
translate word land for street,for example, your street, you
know, we live in the samestreet, which is our habitat,
but we all live in differentboxes, which are houses while
kangaroos, they just literallyshare the streets. So they will
be on the street. If I can makethat analogy type of thing. And,
(19:40):
and they're just very respectfulof that, because that's how
their life is and why for us, Iguess in ancient times, if you
think of Aboriginal culture,indigenous, Native people, for
example, they've lived like thatfor many years. I guess European
at some times we have aswell, but we've grown to want to
(20:04):
buy things and, and to callthings ours and, and to separate
us from the others into causesand to join ourselves with the
others who have a similar sociallife of similar interest in
needs and that, a lot ofkangaroos, they are just
(20:25):
concerned about eating the grassand making the next year
hopefully with a kid you
know. It's really interestingbecause it's a shared
responsibility of theenvironmental space with one
interest that everybodysurvives. And of course, design
and architecture has such a lotto do with human existence and
(20:47):
exactly what you said, you know,buying your one property or your
apartment, these actually becomeconditions of separation and
isolation. Unfortunately, we dohave a pandemic of loneliness.
So I do find this study,incredibly important to draw on
(21:07):
in terms of how we can improveconditions and well being for
ourselves, too. I wondered,Weli, if you could explain to
the listeners in view ofeverything we've said so far,
what your role as a dancer wasin the video, compared to your
(21:28):
lovely array of diverse anddifferent dancers? How would you
explain to the listeners whatwas going on, and with your role
in particular.
In the video, we had differentthings happening, some of them
were entertainment, some of themwere very linked to some key
messages I wanted to show from thevideo, I think the main key
(21:51):
message and the reason why I hadso many diverse dances was
because I want to, as I say,show diversity in kangaroo
personality differences in howthey respond, there are due
to intrinsic responses. I wasin some parts of the video a
researcher, in some parts of thevideo, I was also playing a
(22:15):
kangaroo in the socialdynamics. I think there is like
halfway through the video,that's the part that I'm like a
soloist, I'm transiting aredancing across different groups.
So as I move from a group ofballet dancers to a group of
summer dancers and then to hiphop, I adjust my steps, and
(22:36):
that's, it's in one take aswell so you can have that clear
message of me adjusting, but itsmy dance steps that that really
represents the scienceaspects, it's my behavior,
right? So thinking of thedifferent groups as groups that
behave in a different way as Itransit across those groups, I
(23:00):
adjust the behavior. And thenjust after I communicate that,
that I adjust my behavior, Ishow that everybody actually
adjusts their behavior. So theyhave like those, they are groups
adjusting to each other, as wellas ensuring that it's all quite
democratic really. Yeah, so themain message of the video is to
(23:22):
show kangaroos havepersonalities. And that's why we
got this from different styles,what I really want it to show
us is this spectrum, right. So apersonality happens in the
spectrum. So you have anindividual that is less
responsible, the way tointroduce more responsive
individuals is interesting. And to show that diversity I was I
thought, Canberra will be mypopulation. So Canberra, the
(23:45):
city, and there is a populationand many dancers inside this
population. So who are they? Itried to get as many dancers and
for that I had to go todifferent places to different
dance schools and invite peopleon top of my actual friends,
because I have a lot of friendswho are dancers, a Latin or
related style or Brazilian, so Ihad my friends but then I had to
(24:08):
go beyond and get likecontemporary ballet and all of
that as well. Which was amazing.And then we show as these
individuals group together,they also adjust their behavior.
So they do have personalities,you can see that very clearly on
the way they move. Obviously,someone who twerks is
(24:30):
completely different fromsomeone who does ballet. And the
costumes are very different and Ithink was one of the highlights
of the video seeing all thesebeautiful costumes as well. So
you can track the differentpersonalities really well based
on how they dress and how theymove. But at the end, at some
moments, you cannot really tellwhich dances style it is because
(24:53):
they're just mixing up andadjusting steps to each other.
Yeah, it's a really fantasticand clever illustration,
obviously of your of yourfindings, and especially clever
to make it so simple, which isby no means easy. So yes, for
(25:16):
listeners do go and look thevideo up, you'll certainly find
it easily on YouTube. So pickingup on this really interesting
skill of adjustment and socialplasticity, I'm interested in
your experiences of adjustment.So when you were growing up in
(25:40):
Brazil, and you've already said,you know, you've you've said
before, in interviews, you youcome from a very humble family,
there were differences inexposure to education, you
obviously had a really goodeducation. But I think you
mentioned your grandparentsdidn't, for example, so I'm
(26:01):
interested in how easy ordifficult was it for you to
adjust when you wanted to dosomething that was different
that was perhaps going againstthe grain or the traditions of
of what your family expectationsmight be? And how were your
(26:24):
family able to adjust to youdoing something so different?
Yeah, that's such a goodquestion. There are layers and
layers of answers. I think goingback as a kid, I didn't, I just,
I didn't have a strong voice,right. So my whole journey was
trying to find this voice. Andonce I got it, I tried to go
(26:47):
back and reconnect to myself,and just to recreate those
connections with my actualinterests and try to convey what
I actually want to say and, andbe what I want to be. And
respectfully, involve myfamily as well. But one thing
(27:07):
I've learned is that I didn'thave to get them adjusted to me,
sometimes it would be justeasier if I went to a group,
where being there will beeasier. As you say, it's very
conservative. And one of therules of being conservative is
that you don't think about it asmuch. It's just how it is. And
(27:33):
sometimes you just need to leavethat place. And, and go to a
place where it's lessconservative, and then
experience the freedom ofexpressing yourself and, and the
safety of doing so as well, tobuild up that confidence in your
voice. So you can come back andrespectfully, I guess, I say
(27:57):
respectfully, because I'mtalking about family and you
don't want to do, you want themto be with you, right? You don't
want to just to go and and andsay hey, this is me. You are
wrong, you ruined my life, mychildhood and things like that.
You they're just yourcontinuation, right to life. And
(28:17):
to those relationships, at leastI want that to happen. That in
certain aspects, it's justeasier if I just, you know,
don't do everything with themand, and do my life to the
fullest with a group of friendswho are like me. But as a kid
it was one of the firstthings that I that I remember
(28:41):
feeling was just like thisoppression, just like I couldn't
even breathe. Like in terms ofdecision making, I couldn't
decide what it was going to do.Because every decision I would
take, like if I'm playing andthere's like a doll and I would
grab the doll and I was like,Oh, that's a girl's thing. And
that happened so much. And I waslike, okay, maybe I shouldn't
(29:03):
decide where I'm going to playwith. Or if I were dancing, or
like singing, maybe I shouldn'tdecide if I want to dance or
sing. Maybe I should just not doanything and and when they tell
me to do something, then I'll goand do or if I really really
(29:25):
want to be more imaginative if Iwant to move, I want to dance, if
I want to play with dolls orsomething. I'm just going to
withdraw myself and try tohide myself while I do that. So
I've always done kind of like Ialways felt that there was this
Weli A and Weli B and Ithink that was one of the first
conversations I had with mypsychologist. I went to therapy I
(29:46):
think I was like 25 and I wasexhausted of having Weli A and
Weli B. Weli A would be what I presented to people and
Weli B was what I thought Iwas at work and that people
didn't know but once I startedtalking to people more, I
(30:07):
realized that Weli A and Weli Bhas always been one Weli. And
that people would never, theywould also stop making
comments on Well B, but they would know that it was
there. Which was a bit funny toknow that they were actually
accepting, in a way, I justwasn't aware that they were.
(30:30):
Yeah, it's it's a reallyinteresting description, but
also a difficult one in that itsounds like a confusing and
fearful time for a child,especially, you know, when you
become fearful of decisionmaking, even around things like
(30:51):
what what toys should I playwith? You're becoming very
aware of identity associations.Would you agree there was fear
involved? And from that point ofview, how did you find the
(31:11):
courage to become who you are?
Oh, my gosh, that was a long,long, long, long process. I
think if there was fear, therewas panic, there was like, the
worst anxiety that I still livewith. I tried to make use of
(31:32):
school and school is a greatplace because people are usually
more shy. It did feel like I waskilling half of me, because I'm
also performative. And I like, being public, like, I didn't know
my creative interests, theyinvolve the public a lot,
(31:53):
because it's dancing, singing,right. And I did not dance and
sing for most of mygrowing up, I would do it just in
the shower. Because I rememberthinking, hey, if I go in front
of the class, or even like topresent, present a seminar on
something, I wouldn't gothinking people will think I was gay.
(32:14):
And if they got to me, I waslike, Hey, can I ask you a
question, the first thing thatwould come to my mind is that
they would ask if I were gay,like, sometimes they would just
ask something about the topic.But it was extreme anxiety to
the point that I would avoid,like, I would avoid going to
social circles, I wouldn'tever go out. My friends were
(32:35):
only to the time it was inclassroom or at work in the
office, I had like the bestfriends, I wouldn't go out with
them, I wouldn't hang out withthem. And I would always know
that at any time, that we're notlike that, or we didn't have a
secure topic that we're talkingabout, let's say it's talking
(32:56):
about science you were talkingabout, I don't know the music of
someone else. It could be couldbe that they were were talking
about relationships or dating soI think when I was in the closet
it wasn't I wasn't pretendingto be straight person, I was
pretending to be asexual. Iwasn't really talking about
(33:17):
anything. And, and then I justsaw this idea that I was a nerd.
Because I saw in the movies orsomething like that there is
like this image linked. So I waslike, Oh, you don't know if he's
gay or he's a nerd, or if heactually has homework. So that
was what I buried myself in on.And I think, well, there was in
(33:44):
on top of that I was alsoreligious, right? And I
remember, like, from 15, to 20to 25, I don't know, I used to
pray for God for fixing me or either that or to kill me. And I
never thought I was going tomake it, it's hard but like, I never
thought I was going to make it tomy 20s and then I made it to my 20s
(34:07):
I was like fuck, what am I goingto do? I was just very lucky
that I got a break from my worldand for all those things I was I
was living. And no one reallyknows like from from back
home because I was not tellingthat to anybody. I was just
(34:27):
living that in my head right.And I think the first
breakthrough was like I got ascholarship to come to the other
side of the world and I gothere I was like, what, it's
like living in the movie. Oneof the first people I chatted,
and I was like I was 21, 22and this is actually crazy how
(34:50):
far I went from 22 to 25for example, like it was like so
much learning. Anyway, I wentto a priest to confess that I was
gay for the first time. So thefirst person I told I was gay
was a priest in Australia, inEnglish, I didn't even know
English, and he was actuallyreally cool. And he suggested a
(35:13):
psychologist, and thepsychologist was gay. And I was
like, Okay, why is this priestdoing this. And then I was like,
I shut myself from those twopeople, and from my friends and
everybody, then my scholarshipfinished, I went to Brazil, and
I was, like, panicing. And it wasthe first time I returned to
Brazil from something big,right. And then there was like,
(35:35):
all these girls with, like,interests and like, and this is
so cool. But like, um, I don'tknow, I don't know, I don't
know, I don't know. Like, somuch anxiety. And then I started
talking to my best friend fromhigh school, Carolle. And when,
and this was like, 23, I think23 or 24.
(35:59):
And when we were 18, she toldme, she was dating one of our
friends, and she is lesbian. AndI didn't know we used to be
like, very close friends. Wewere born three days apart, we
did high school together. And Ididn't know that we were like,
going through high school andthrough the same issues without
talking to each other. But whenshe told me, I didn't have the
(36:21):
bravery to tell her that when Iwas 24, we had we've had like,
lived a very similar life. So wedone high school together. And
then she went to a differentuniversity, I stayed at mine.
And then I did science withoutthe board. So I left the
country and she left the country.And then we had like, this very
similar background. So we'restill like, talking a lot. And
(36:43):
then I was like, hey, I need totell you something, I need to be
brave. And, and as she was like,the first person, and she was
like, so lovely. And she gave meso much support, always checking
on me. And, and I think thewhole realization of that
process with Jesus, and I don'tconsider myself religious, or go
(37:04):
to church anymore. But I feellike if God answered my prayers
he didn't give me what Iasked. He gave me the
opportunity, which was like,leaving Brazil and my hometown
because that's amiracle. You can say that
because you don't do that, likecoming from where I came from.
(37:24):
So once I was reflectingon I was like, Okay, maybe I've
got my miracle. And my miracleis just to show me that I can be
free. And in Australia was thefirst place I've seen gay guys
holding hands in the street andpeople fighting for, like, gay
equality, and same sex marriage.Like, that was like, outrageous
(37:50):
when I got here it was I feltoutrageous. And I was like, Oh,
wow, is this really happening? Itwas like, so shocking. And then
I needed like, three, four yearsto process all that. And then
when I processed it, I just made these healthier
links, I guess, and, and justrealizing that, no, there's life
(38:10):
beyond these things, I waslocking myself inside my head,
and I can start sharing more,and I should share more and,
and, and I think the realizationthat I was just like,
scared, I was just too scaredand that I needed to be brave
and to stand up for myself. And,and I started doing that then
(38:33):
never stopped. And look at menow.
Yeah, it's, it's absolutelyfantastic, because you have
shown immense courage. And isn'tit sad when you think there were
two children or young people atschool that were actually you
know, best friends really closefriends who were both having to
(38:57):
lock away identities, and youknow, and you couldn't share
that with each other until somuch later. It's really raising
two important points, I thinkthroughout all of your work as a
science as a scientist and alsoas a recording artist, and I
(39:17):
think that's the themes ofacceptance and also freedom. So,
when we think about the kangaroostudy, the wild kangaroos seem
to have a lovely experiencearound acceptance, it's part of
their social plasticity. Theredoesn't seem to be a conflict
(39:41):
around personalities and havingto dominate or insist on
conformity it all comes back toadjustment and acceptance. And
I'm really interested in how youreached acceptance. So I know that
you've explained that process but I also wondered if
(40:06):
meditation was a part of thatprocess, because meditation is
also a very useful way ofunderstanding acceptance. Is
that something that's relevantto you?
Oh, wow, you touched like, whatsaved my life basically. I said,
Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's,that's a good question. Yes,
(40:31):
100%. Well, I started doingtherapists, but I never felt
like they were long enough and,and they were also expensive.
And then, after my PhD myPhD was a very different
journey. And I didn't feel likeas a scientist as though again,
(40:52):
I didn't feel like I did orfit right in. Like, I love my
department and love everybodyand I respect everybody. But
we're very different people. When I came out, I became more
performative and
and feeling the need to talkmore, but again, there wasn't
(41:13):
much of that space at work, orall of that. And like writing my
thesis writing in a secondlanguage was, and I was
living like, I was doing a PhDand coming out and exploring my
creative side and, and talkingto my family, and, you know, all
(41:34):
that at the same time. Andcoming from what I just told
you, like this whole journey, oflike, hating myself to study,
realize that I should bebrave, but I wasn't feeling
like I was brave, right. And itwas incredibly difficult for my
mental health. So in the lastyear of my PhD, I broke, I shut
(41:56):
down. And like, for two months,I took a medical leave. And I
was just like, laying on my bedand looking at the roof, and
thinking, how can I, how am Igoing to get out? Like, how am I
going to get up, so I wasreally, really broken. And that
was it, this is gonna soundweird, but I'm, in a way
(42:19):
thankful for COVID. I know how horrible it was for the
world, how many people died. AndI don't want to take out of it.
But like, one month before COVIDhit, I was at my worse, and I
was in bed, and I couldn't, Ididn't have energy to do
anything. And then the whole thing where everything was like going
(42:39):
at the normal speed right in theworld and then suddenly, the
whole word shuts, and the wholeword goes slow, kind of to the
same pace my brain couldprocess. So having the
COVID, at the end of my PhD wasvery beneficial, actually.
Because then people started listening more, and you would
(43:00):
work from home. So then you don'tneed to go to the office. And then I
managed to finish my thesis andI submitted it and moved to the beach,
because I really needed a space.And what I really needed was to
find a way to start feelinghappiness again. I couldn't feel
happiness at that time. And thenI started talking to people and
(43:22):
someone recommended memeditation, meditation called
Vipassana, which isbasically like purifying your
mind. So just, it's just likesilence management, a
meditation, you go there, andyou just sit and meditate for 10
days. And you don't need tocook, there's food provided. And
it's all based on donation. AndI was like, also broke, I didn't
(43:45):
have any money. So I couldn't doany therapy. I couldn't pay a
psychologist, I couldn't donothing. But there was one
meditation that was free, andyou just go there and respect
the rules sit down and meditateand, and that was my first
contact to meditation. And itchanged my whole life and I
continued doing it. And I'vedone maybe five courses now and
(44:10):
that that just like I feel likeI was just able to do to go back
and do research for anotheryear because I got another
contract. To be able to doperformance to go in front of
an audience and it was just becauseI've kind of like managed to
master my mind a little bitmore. And I was not being that
(44:32):
very reactive person. And thathas been so it helped me to set
myself back and put myselftogether. And and and as you said
it helped me to build up thatconfidence in myself, I
guess, I guess from therealization that that things
(44:54):
change and and life is thiscraziness. It's just
impermanent. And, and and that'salright. And that's what we
are as individuals we're organism's. At the
end of the day we're just energy,right? But it's kind of like,
(45:15):
it's a process. I myself have been through so much
and, and I think having theopportunity to sit down and do
the 10 days in silence, noexternal influences. I'm just
with me on my island. I'm noteven thinking or trying to
process anything, I'm literallyobserving what's happening in my
(45:37):
body at the right moment. That'sthe only challenge, the only
thing you need to do. Thatreally helped me to learn what
it is being present. And, andand let things go.
Yeah, I mean, this is reallycritical, isn't it to our mental
(45:58):
health, and we're not all maybeas aware as we could be that we
can take care of our minds, inthe same way we do our bodies,
you know, we can take ourselvesoff to the gym for our physical
health. But there's so much wecan do for our mental health and
(46:19):
space is really important, isn'tit? Silence and space for
reflection is really important.And would you say, it's through
that practice, that you couldalmost train your mind to become
more responsive, rather thanreactive? Did it help you move
(46:42):
away from panic and anxiety? Mm
hmm. So much, I'm still well, Ihaven't been, or the anxiety
keeps coming back because it'show my brain is structured is
still, I guess, with morepractice in the meditation, it
becomes easier and easier andeasier. I do still live in the
world that is crazy. It's just alot of things happening. And I
(47:06):
don't feel like I've stepped myfeet into the, that one ground
where I want to stay, I'm stilltransitioning. Like the things
before I was transitioningcountries, and then now it's
kind of transitioning careers,and trying to establish myself
more in the music business, butit's still a lot to do, because,
(47:27):
as I say, I didn't performmuch as a kid, right. So there's
still a lot to be feared, whichis exciting, obviously. But
that's why I'm doing it becauseit's exciting. But it's still a
lot of change. Right? And, andonce I reach into a space where
I'm bit more stable, andhopefully, in the next two
(47:47):
weeks, I will then the practicealso, it will help with the
practice. But 100% I would nothave been able to do half of the
things that did in the last year ifit wasn't because of the
meditation and, and effort aswell, in working on my mental
health. I think mind is thefirst thing. If you if you're
(48:12):
anxious about your future, ifyou're not feeling like you can
do things, sit down, meditate,you need that thought to go
away. Because if that thought goesaway, you can do anything.
Yeah, absolutely. It's such animportant example, for people to
hear and hopefully help peoplethat may not have thought about
(48:33):
that practice for themselveseven. And it's equally
interesting Welli that ofcourse, we're talking about the
importance of space and silence as part of the
meditative space and practice.And of course, creativity
expression, music, singing,dancing is equally healthy,
(48:57):
albeit a noisier space. And so,if we move to your choice of
actually focusing on your music,career, your artistry as a
singer songwriter, again, hasthat been a courageous shift to
(49:20):
make a decision about science,or singing? And how helpful has
it been in terms of continuingto improve your sense of self
expression and identity?
Another great question. It isdifficult, like how I feel like
(49:46):
when I won the Dance Your PhDcompetition, which is like a
competition for scientists andscientists only. And it's meant
to stay inside the rounds ofscience as well and it's a sign
it's literally like a sciencecommunication competition. But
what I wanted from that, as anartist was that it would go
(50:08):
beyond science and how would weuse that competition to
transform my science into mymusic career. And that's why I
worked so hard in the music andnetworking and making a video
that would cause an impact aswell beyond the scientific
community. I feel like a bit butat the end of the day, winning
(50:34):
the Dance Your PhD was the highestpoint of the mountain called
'academic career'. That's wheneverybody knew Dr. Weli from
like, all the universities inthe world, everybody knew what I
studied. People would read mythesis and my papers. Meaning it
(50:54):
would be the best opportunityto get the best postdoc in in
in, in probably the one of thebest labs in the world. And what
did I tell everybody? What did Itell everybody? At that level?
I'm quitting academia. Don'ttext me for jobs.
(51:21):
Don't message me about papers.And those people are not people
who could give me some help inthe music career.
(51:42):
So it's kind of like it wasvery, I think it was the bravest
thing I've ever done. My sisterand I were talking about that. I
was like, I can't believe you,you're brave about it. And you did
it. And I'm very proud of you.And I was like, thank you. I did
it and now I need to make the otherside work and spread the news
(52:03):
to the music people and see ifanyone wants to help. So far
I got one chat with one musicagency and and hopefully we'll get
to produce another version ofKangaroo Time. Maybe have a
slightly different name. But Idid think the clubs need a track
(52:24):
called kangaroo something in
this country called Australia.
Yeah, yeah, oh, that would begreat. But it's interesting,
because this does come back tocourage and of course, the roots
of courage, or in vulnerability.So all the examples you've given
(52:50):
us today, right from a child,you know, fears around identity
and decision making, and so on.And those roots in fear and
vulnerability, ultimate,ultimately cultivate courage,
because once you finally makedecisions to, for example, be
who you are, or leave Brazil, tomove to Australia, or to do
(53:12):
something that's completelydifferent to your family, is all
about cultivating courage. Andof course, you've also found
tools to support that. So forexample, meditation, and then
having the freedom to flourishas a creative artist. So the EP
(53:35):
that's currently out, there'sfour tracks, and I understand
the EP chronicles thattransition that you've just been
talking about that departurefrom academia to a music career,
and I know the listeners canfind your channel and all of
these videos and songs onYouTube, which I'll signposts on
(53:56):
your episode page, would youlike to give us an overview of
those four tracks and how itchronicles that that transition?
I did notice that there's a recurring sentence, Are you
feeling all right? And Iwondered if you'd like to expand
(54:17):
on that.
I got goosebumps! Yes, thankyou. I'd love to share about
this currently, because it'sit's main piece really is a
letter. I think to myself firstand then to anyone else who is
facing the need for a change intheir lives, regardless of being
(54:39):
a career change or relationshipchange or even at the end of the
day it comes to the bottom line ofif there's something your three
year old self wanted to doand you're in your 30s or older
and you still haven't done it,and you see your day to day life
taking you into a completelydifferent direction and then
(55:01):
soon you're going to be 50, 60 andyou never do that. But now is
the moment and you feel like,oh, maybe I shouldn't do it now
then do it. Now I think that'swhat the main message of the EP
is. This EP starts with KangarooTime. And the track the track,
number one is also the trackused for the Dance Your PhD
(55:21):
competition on purpose, becausethat's a big celebration, I feel
like the best part oftransition is that you get
the time to process as well, allthose experiences you've had in
this thing you're transitioningfrom, leaving behind, because you
learned so much. And it got to apoint that you either learned
(55:44):
everything about it or whateverthe day to day life in that
doesn't match more who you areas an individual anymore. And I
feel like that's what happenedto me after my PhD was the
routine of a scientist, itwasn't very clear for me before
I started a PhD. But it was veryclear after I finished a PhD
(56:04):
after going through the wholeprocess. It's really about
repetition, and really abouttesting and re-testing the same
question. And it's obvious forme now, why, it's because science
is about the natural world, and is about finding the truth in
affects. And, and it's limitedby reality. And that's how it's
(56:25):
supposed to be right. But therepetition itself didn't work
well with let's say, mypersonality, or how my brain
experiences happiness and excitement, I do need things to
be finished quicker. And I needto move on to the next thing
quicker. And I find that inmusic, like writing a song is a
(56:47):
big process and recording andhaving it ready to to to be
released is a big process aswell. But it happens that it's
more collaborative, it's easierfor you to do that with other
people. One because people willdo music, they appreciate that
maybe more than the scientistsitself that lock themselves in
the computer just tried to dothat whole project by themselves
(57:10):
and expect everybody to do itlike that. And, and also, it's
like it's a big process, butit's also how many words are in
the song compared to how manywords are in the paper. So you
can just get to the bottom of itquicker. So first song is big
celebration of that time. Andthen the second song is called
(57:33):
Shall We Let It Go. It's theactual name tells us what it is.
It's just like going personallyinto answering that question
that is recurring across thetracks. Are you feeling right?
In the first track, you're surrounded by mates? Are you
feeling alright? It's just aplay on alright, just kind
(57:54):
of like to rhyme with all theverses that came before it,
the verses describing kangaroofights in a queer way. And then
I use you're surrounded by matesand use the word mates because
we're in Australia and it meansyou're in the group right?
Surrounded by mates. And thenare you feeling alright? Is that
is just taking that taking that to myself that Weli, Are you
(58:18):
feeling alright, you're here,you're in this group, your a
scientist, you're in this department. You're doing this
fieldwork, but are you reallyfeeling alright? And it was a
time that I was actually notfeeling alright. So the
second track, the firsttrack finishes with Weli, are
you feeling alright? And then the second track starts
with Well, are you feelingAlright? And the answer is,
(58:40):
the answer for that is I stoppedfeeling calm, shall we let it go.
And then it's really a track that it could be useful like
breakups, I would call it like abreak free anthem. And I just go
more personal and say, I got tothis point that it's not about
being right or wrong. I'mactually not feeling calm. I'm
(59:02):
not feeling satisfied with thesituation that is in here. I
should just let it go. And kindof like having that as a
conversation. And then it movesto track number three. It's
basically an interlude where I touch base into the transition
actually the need fortransitioning between academia
(59:23):
into a new reality as areflection. There isn't it's not
extracted as a song. There's alittle bit of singing there, but
it's really a weird, reflectivetrack. That leads us to the last
record on the album, and that's avery interesting track. It's in
(59:45):
reggaeton,it's I sing it inSpanish. It was the first time I
sang in Spanish ever in my life.And that song has nothing to do
with anything back. And thattrack is what I called the new,
the new reality itself,it's it's it's a very
(01:00:06):
imaginative story that contrastsand it's imaginative for a
reason, because I wanted it tocontrast a lot with the
empiricism of science. So it'sbasically leaving this ground of
research and being empirical and in touch with reality
and moving to something thatcould be anything like very
(01:00:29):
imaginative or creative. AndI tarted playing with the word
doctor. And it takes me back tomy hometown where my mom would
tell her friend, hey, my son isa doctor, and they think I'm a
magical doctor, because theydon't know what a PhD is. Yeah,
and the story itself is just agirl in Australia who loves
(01:00:52):
reggaeton, it's 2 am shehas been there since since 10am
Sorry, 10pm. And the party goes until 7am In the morning,
but she's like tired her bodystyle because she has been
dancing for like four hoursalready. But she's got to go on
and need to dance until 7am. And she hears about this Kangaroo
Doctor Weli, who is a kangaroodoctor. And she's like, Oh,
(01:01:16):
maybe he can make a surgery. Andif I have the feet and tail of
kangaroos, I would have thatenergy. I'd have the energy to
make it until 7am. But when shefinds Weli, he's not that kind
of doctor. Yeah, it's veryimaginative.
Lovely. So it's a really lovelystory that you've you've put
together you know, that that'schronicling, obviously, your
(01:01:39):
life, your transition. And whatreally stood out to me in that
was the significance of lettinggo because, of course, that is
part of acceptance, it goes backto acceptance, whether it's
accepting ourselves, who we are,that that process, we might go
through when we feel differentto everyone else, there's that
(01:02:02):
personal acceptance. And lettinggo is so important when we have
to try and let go, maybe of thenegative things we just
repeatedly tell ourselvesautomatically, habitually. And
also letting go sometimes ofpast negative experiences. And I
(01:02:24):
think what's important aboutthat is it's not in any way, a
passive resignation is it, it'squite an active process learning
to accept, as is meditation,would you agree with that,
that part of our wellbeing andif we undertake meditation, it's
(01:02:47):
a surprisingly active process,it's not kind of being in a
trance-like state, you know,half being asleep, it's a very
awake state.
In my meditation, they call whenyou sit in, when you're meditating,
they call it working. Becauseit's a lot of work. And your
(01:03:09):
work is one task, right? It's tobe present. And it's to observe
your body and your sense yoursensations as they are in that
moment. And it's incredible whenwe start doing that, and what
our brains do, because ourbrain is so trained to do the
opposite, which is basically toget one sensation, it's that
(01:03:30):
breaking down into deeperthoughts. And then this thought
brings in the other thought, andthen brings that emotion that
have emotion of them, thenthere's really just something
that doesn't exist anymore, it'sall gone. But we somehow are trained
to bring back those memories andlike in certain situations, be
triggered by by some things andbeing triggered, basically means
(01:03:53):
you saw something or you see something that is linked through
a negative experience in thepast, and then just feel exactly
what you felt when you're inthat negative experience, or
even worse, like panic attacksand all of that. But it also
extends like when you when youthink of like not being able to
(01:04:14):
control your your mind,sometimes it's for things you
actually crave. And I neverrealized that like, the effect a
trauma has in your life issimilar to the effect of
something you want so bad. Sothats, because if whatever you
crave is not there, you're alsogoing to suffer right? If
something you have aversion to is there, you feel bad. If
(01:04:39):
something that you want is notthere, you also feel bad. So
you're just that product ofreactions and reactions and
reactions and it just feel verymiserable all the time. And I
feel like the meditation itselfhelps you or it doesn't help you
unless you do it correctly. Andthat's what's difficult about
(01:04:59):
Meditation. That's why it'scalled work as well. Because
it's gotta be able to fight thistendency of your brain taking
you into these different spacesand try to stay with the air
you're breathing right now andwith how it feels, if it feels
warm, if it's tingly, or numb,whatever sensations actually
(01:05:21):
there in his moment, and, andthen being able to continue
observing that because notbecause you've sensed it now
it's going to be there forever.So what's the next one, so just
this curiosity of what'sactually going to be the next
sensation, when the time comesfor it to for very to show up
and, and that's a lot ofeffort. It's a lot of work. It's
(01:05:44):
so hard, because we're nottrained. But the more we do it,
the more it's easy for us to letthings go, as you're saying and,
and just forgive ourselves fromthese patterns of the mind these
old, old patterns of the mind ofreacting in a way that will
actually just make us suffer,really.
(01:06:05):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.And curiosity is such an
important quality to highlightas well that we can really
benefit from being curious abouthow our own minds and our own
thinking is working. So you'vetouched on so many important
(01:06:26):
points. And you said somethingreally beautiful, I thought, well
you've said, lots of beautifulthings. But something that
really stood out to me was whenyou were talking about
adjustment in terms of yourfamily, and yourself. So when I
asked you about how your familyadjusted to you, for example,
(01:06:47):
when you wanted to be thatperson that went off and did
something different, and youreally emphasized that you
weren't interested in rejection,you really respect your family,
and it was always aboutacceptance of who they are. And
it is equally about acceptanceof who you are. And I thought
(01:07:11):
that was such an importantdescription that it goes back to
exactly what your study hasdone. It's the acceptance of
difference and the acceptance ofdiversity.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That'sbeautiful. Thanks for saying
that back.
So, um, as always, this hour,flies by, always flies by for
(01:07:37):
me because I'm hearing suchinteresting things. So I ought
to move to the end question,which is the series question and
how would you respond to thequestion, Weli, Can art save
us?
I think art is saving us every day.Art a is a creative, creative world.
(01:08:03):
And by creating, I mean, weuse our brains, our senses, our
abilities, to take somethingfrom the reality we're living, and
go somewhere else. Sometimes thereality we're living is painful.
Sometimes it's, it's notdesirable. And, and having
(01:08:29):
access to, to the craft anyforms of art in being able to
express yourself in any form ofart, you can just escape that
place, or take that place andtransform into whatever you
want. And in, in this new world,in a new project or whatever
(01:08:52):
you're creating, it may be it'sjust in your mind, you're gonna
feel safe, because that'severything that you created,
there is something you know,because it came from you. So I
think that's what art is mostimportant for. It's not the
product itself, it's what itcreates for the artist. I feel
(01:09:15):
like that the people who go andsee an artist on stage a
musician, they can experience alittle bit of that but at the
end of the day, they're goingthere to see just see the
artist, the singer, dancer, andI'm talking about that because
it's what I do, they go therebecause they connect to that in
(01:09:36):
a way and and and somehow theydidn't write that song, but that
song does take them out of thereality they are and take them
to a place that resonates todaya place of comfort. And, and in
those one hour of a show, 30minutes, I don't know the length
of a song that's them beingsaved. And that's the most
(01:10:01):
magical thing and I actually getvery emotional about talking
about talking that and, and whenI told you, I was finishing my
PhD, and I really, really missedbeing creative, it was that I
missed creating those placeswhere it could safely navigate
into and stay. And everythingthere was enough. And that's what
(01:10:22):
songwriting is, for me, that'swhat singing is for me. And in
that space, where I put myselfis so much easier to connect to
other people and to share. Andto communicate, it just really
makes it so much easier becauseI withdraw myself from myself
and withdraw myself from myreality, from my background,
(01:10:44):
from my traumas, from mycravings. And it's just really
about that beautiful community.And yeah, so I'm very thankful
for art, I don't think, ushumans could do life without it.
And I do not understand peoplewho, who do not appreciate it.
(01:11:07):
It's a really lovely example,that that you've shared with us
today. Thank you for being sobrave, as well for sharing all
of those personal dramas thatyou've had to live through, and
(01:11:27):
the courage that you've shown tomake the changes in your own
life and also for enabling sucha fantastic piece of scientific
work to reach all of us throughthe power of dance. I've learned
so much. It's such great fun todiscover the art of the kangaroo
(01:11:50):
life through dance. It's been areal pleasure Weli talking to
you today. I've really, reallyloved talking to you. And thank
you so much for everythingyou've shared, and for the
example that you're setting.
Thank you so much, Paula, Ireally, really appreciate I also
loved being here and speaking toyou and your audience. Really,
(01:12:14):
really appreciate if theaudience wants to know more
about Weli and the work,please go to my socials,
subscribe, follow whatever youwant to do. The music's on
Spotify. And if you want toreach out to me as well having a
conversation, please send me amessage and I would love to hear
(01:12:35):
your stories and, and know ifthis everything I shared in my
life resonates to you as well inany way. I really appreciate for
this space for the opportunity. Ilove doing podcasts. So really,
I'm really thankful for thisexperience.
Wonderful, and I will make surethat your link is on your
(01:13:00):
episode page so listeners canfind you easily. And just in
case there are scientistsamongst you, and you're
interested in how this dancecompetition works. It's hosted
by the American Association forthe Advancement of Science.
Thank you for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com