The Art House - 2025 Feature - Can Art Save Us?

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to Can ArtSave Us? The podcast exploring
how the arts can strengthen andeven transform our mental
societal and democratic health.I talk with diverse award
winning artists about how thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity and why we need thesequalities to confront today's
global epidemics of mentalillness, loneliness,

(00:23):
polarisation of our communitiesand even worldwide conflict, be
part of this national andinternational conversation. Join
us to discover how the arts canreally help you. After nine
seasons, 65 episodes and morethan 6000 downloads. I'm very

(00:44):
grateful that this independentpodcast has earned the trust of
listeners and artists around theworld. Thank you to every guest
and listener, because this reachhas been built entirely through
organic growth and without apaid PR machine. I'm now
reliably informed that theseries is placed well ahead of
the majority of new podcasts andwith continued growth. So thank

(01:08):
you. To mark this sharedachievement, I wanted to close
2025 with something special, afeature on an arts organisation
that shares and embodies thevalues this series supports. The
Art house in Wakefield, alsoknown as The House That Art
Built, is a leading example ofwhat is possible even in the

(01:30):
toughest economic climate. Thissmall, but long established arts
charity remains steadfast in itsmission to champion diversity,
inclusion and transformativechange. This isn't about
tokenism. It's core toeverything they do together. In
this episode, we'll explore howthe arts can help us think more

(01:51):
deeply, feel more fully andimagine more generously. The Art
House demonstrates what weshould all be able to expect
when it comes to participatingin the arts and to discover
multiple benefits that can helpshape a better world to live in.
I'm very pleased to welcomeDamon Jackson-Waldock, the CO
Executive Director at The ArtHouse. Hello Damon, and welcome

(02:15):
to Can Art Save Us? Hello.
Thank you for having me and whatan introduction that was!
Well, it's very deserved. Sothank you for making the time. I
really appreciate how busy youall are. Damon, can you share
what your pathway to becomingthe CO Executive Director at The

(02:35):
Art House was, and what thebarriers were that you
personally faced to work in thearts.
It's quite nice to talk aboutthis, part of what I do and how I
got here, because it does reallyfeed into what I believe as a
curator and as a, you know,executive director. And
actually, the more I think backto my the past, it's had a
massive impact on how weprogramme and what we do. So

(02:57):
yeah, I grew up in Sheffield. Icame from a single parent
family. Now looking back, wewere quite poor, although I
never felt poor, but we were mymom was long term unemployment,
and so kind of the idea of goingto university didn't really come
up straight away, but I was kindof first of the family to go to

(03:18):
university. I ended up stayingin Sheffield just because I
couldn't afford to move away. SoI studied Fine Art and
Contemporary Cultures thereafter college, and spent three
amazing years in art school,which is, I think, one of the
most incredible places peoplecan go, but kind of coming out,
not knowing what to do withthat, knowing I didn't want to

(03:39):
be an artist, but was creativeand wanted to work with other
creatives in some way. So yeah,coming out of university was
feeling a bit lost. Took me afew years to get on some kind of
path, but I always knewmuseums was a thing for me.
Galleries and museums was thething for me, probably because,
again, looking back at myupbringing, every weekend. It

(04:01):
felt like we were at our localmuseum and art gallery at the
time they were combined. So we'dalways go and visit there every
weekend. And thinking aboutthat, that was probably because
it was free and, you know,access to artists, and you know,
free access to art is somethingthat I'm still passionate about.
It was warm, you know, you know,we were out and you know, there
was activities to do, so itprobably had a significant

(04:21):
impact on what I wanted to do.So that's at that point it was
like, I want to work in thearts, but didn't know how to and
what was for me, you know, asthis kind of working class kid,
my dream was to work as as agallery invigilator, I mean, you
know, just to kind of sit withthe art and be with the art and

(04:43):
look after it was, was somethingthat I aspired to do and and,
you know, it's probably is anamazing job, but that's because
I didn't know there was anythingabove that for me, for people
like me at the time. So, so Ifelt incredibly lucky when I few
years later, after taking sometime out to care for a sibling
with disabilities. I got theopportunity to apply for a

(05:05):
scheme which was calledDiversify, which had been
running for 10 years. And it wasvery much trying to break the
kind of the glass ceiling of theart world and who works in it.
And it was in its final year.And whereas previous years was
very much around kind of gettingmore black and brown creatives
into leadership roles in thearts, the final year was more

(05:26):
extended out to support thosefrom low, socio economic
backgrounds and clear storiesand experiences and trying to
diversify what the diversifyscheme was all about, and I was
lucky enough to whittle downfrom 200 people to get a
workplace training at theYorkshire Sculpture Park back in
2010, that's how my pathwayinto the arts began so learning

(05:51):
on the job. There was an optionto do a kind of an MA in curation.
I opted for 12 months work basedtraining, and it was the best
thing I ever did. And over theyears, learned a lot and managed
to get a full time job at theYorkshire Sculpture Park. Worked
there for 11 years beforedeciding to move on from a large
institution and work somewherethat was a bit more smaller, bit

(06:13):
more grassroots and actuallyaligned with what I wanted to do
as a curator. So that's how Icame to work at The Art House.
Yeah, it's it's such aninteresting and important
journey to hear about. You know,there's three really significant
turning points or door openers.One is the free museum that you

(06:35):
could go to as a child, whichmust have been such an enormous
help to your mum, being able toprovide activities that weren't
economically constrained in aspace where there was as much
education as well asentertainment. The fact that you
went to university, and as yousaid, the first in your family

(06:58):
is so significant because that'sa culture shock, if you like, a
positive culture shock within afamily, but also perhaps a
culture shock for you as a lonerole model in that family. And
then, of course, this schemediversify is such an important
door opener, another form ofcivic empowerment. You know, it

(07:19):
enabled you an opportunity. Soif we took any of those things
away, where might you be now,
I don't know. I like to thinkI'd still be here, because I'd
be ambitious enough but yeah,yeah, you're right,
because, you know, there's notmuch opportunities like that

(07:44):
that, you know, I believe wemight be in a worse time now
than we were back in 2010 whenthe Diversify scheme had been
running for 10 years and tryingto, you know, achieve what it
wanted to achieve. I think Iread something, you know, in
2024 that said, actually, peoplethat work in the arts are less,
you know, it's less diverse thanit's ever been. That's because

(08:05):
of funding cuts and lack ofopportunity. Those schemes don't
run. You know, many museums thatI've grown up with in Yorkshire
and wider are now charged forhard to get to. So, yeah, maybe
I will be in a completelydifferent job.
Yeah, it gives you a massiveappreciation, doesn't it, that
lived experience of how barrierscan change. And this is, of

(08:27):
course, what you all dobrilliantly well at the Art
House, the space that youcreate, the inclusivity, the
diversity, it's clearly core toeverything you do. I wondered if
we could talk about twoparticular initiatives that have
really stood out, and the firstone is the Well Placed

(08:50):
Initiative, a response to socialand economic deprivation in
communities. I wondered if youcould share with the listeners
how the arts and Well Placedaction is creating positive
social change.
Yeah, so Well Placed, it's kindof a new initiative for us. But
as it began a few years back inWakefield, the Art House would

(09:14):
kind of work with units in shopin the local shopping centre,
the Riding shopping centre, tokind of tackle the many empty
units that were happening. Youknow, the high streets not doing
really well right now. At timeshave changed for the high streets.
You know, we need to offersomething more than just shops.
We need to offer an experience.And also in Wakefield, there's a

(09:39):
huge, huge demand for access tostudio spaces and spaces to do
creative things at exhibitions.The art house has a huge waiting
list of creatives that want towork here for various reasons,
because of its access, but alsobecause Wakefield is is becoming
quite really known for the kindof the creative output. So the
Art House kind of came upwith this idea and this

(10:01):
partnership, really, becausewe're always, constantly
thinking about what is a role ofan art gallery beyond just
having white cube space. Andthis is one of the areas that we
were kind of thinking that anart gallery could support. We
could be activators for helpingregeneration and for place
making and for creativity tothrive. And it adds to kind of

(10:23):
our civic role as an artgallery, to try and empower lots
of groups, other artists,nonprofits, social enterprises,
to come together and to reignitethese empty spaces. So that's
something that the Art Housebegan doing in Wakefield with Makey
Wakey. And then over theyears, we've developed that
programme to become Well Placed,which now sees the kind of the

(10:44):
regeneration of these emptyspaces in Wakefield in Salford,
we're moving out to Derby toHull, so it's growing. It's
quite an exciting thing thatwe're really focusing on right
now. We've seen it worked reallywell in Wakefield, and we can
see how it can help make changein other towns and cities, and
what it does when you bring allof these people together, the

(11:07):
community artists, creatives,all together, and what it can do
for your towns and cities.
Yeah, and seeing that growth andconnection is such great
testimony to positive change.And significantly, in 2017 the
Art House became the UK's firstever Studio of Sanctuary. And

(11:28):
I'm really interested in if youcould share with us about how
the Art House helps peopleseeking asylum and refugees
fleeing persecution, war orviolence. Could you explain to
us that role and how this hasalso developed into the
Sanctuary Network?
It was definitely one of thethings that really drew me to

(11:50):
wanting to work here, actually.So at the time in 2017 there was
a large community being placedin Wakefield has a quite a large
initial accommodation centre forpeople based temporarily. And
the idea is that when people areplaced in these initial
accommodation centres, they'donly be there for a few weeks

(12:10):
before getting relocated withchanges to the system. It's not
happening like that. People arebased there for 12 months, two
years, and there's not much todo. And we found that a lot of
the communities were coming intothe Art House or being
signposted to the Art House as akind of a warm welcoming space.
Takes me back to the idea of megoing to a warm welcome space.

(12:33):
You know, when I was a child,and at the time in 2017 we were
noticing language was a hugebarrier, but we would offer
creative activities and creativehealth and well being activities
for free, and people wereattending them, and then through
the kind of the shared languageof art and creativity, it kind
of came out that some peopleusing those workshops were

(12:54):
actually artists or designers ortailors in their own country.
And this idea was born, youknow, through various different
things we were doing, there wasartists wanting to explore
projects, and artists set up awelcome space in the gallery for
people in the asylum process.And from all of that, it was
born this idea that maybe weshould be supporting access for

(13:18):
people that were in the asylumprocess, that may have been a
creative in their in their homecountry, that had left their
portfolios behind, that lefttheir networks behind, and
trying to navigate this verydifficult system on top of that,
because they were artists ordesigners trying to navigate the
art world and its systems. Andso the studio centre was born in

(13:38):
terms of offering free studiospaces. We have 45 studios here.
Most of them are rented out forartists, designers and creators,
but some of them we keep. Wegive them out as bursary studios
for people in the assignmentprocess. And that's how it
began, really offering support,professional development,
materials, budget to helpartists rebuild their portfolios
that they've left behind. Sothat's how it began. In 2017

(14:03):
there's been around eightcreatives and artists that have
we supported through the studiosanctuary. Some artists have
left the Art House now and goneon to set up studios in
Yorkshire, and are doing verywell and been very successful in
the arts world, and are nowbeing collected by museums and
galleries. We have a tailor thatnow has one of the units in well

(14:23):
placed in, you know, in MakeyWakey, Wakefield, who's now
running his own tailoringbusiness. And these are just
really important and powerfulstories, really of supporting
with a little bit of access, alittle bit of pastoral care, a
little bit of friendship andwelcome. And then what the these
artists and creators go on todo, and then that's going to
then extend out to thecommunity. So now we run

(14:46):
anywhere between one and threefree workshops a week for
different creative activitiesfor the community. Around 3000
people annually come through thekind of the creative side of
that. So that's people in theasylum seeking community.
Accessing free art activities orjust a cup of tea and a
conversation, and then that'salso then grown into something

(15:07):
that which is now a gallery ofsanctuary status that we have.
Yeah, it's really incredible thepositive impact of connection
and enabling connection, andI'll just share for context with
listeners, particularlyinternational listeners that the
Refugee Council note that the UKis home to approximately 1% of

(15:29):
the 27 point 1 million refugees,people forcibly displaced across
the world, and 41% of displacedpeople across the world are, in
fact, children. It's a globalcrisis, and clearly the Art
House is trying to respond verymuch with your human centred

(15:50):
approach. What positive impacthave you witnessed through
studio sanctuary in terms ofperhaps unexpected outcomes with
local people, and thoseconnections with people seeking
asylum and refugees. I think
everything we try and do here isabout that idea of what is our

(16:15):
role as an art gallery today,like art galleries have evolved
so much, and, you know, there'sservices have been cut in towns
and cities and councils lack offunding. So galleries are kind
of picking up things that theymay have not necessarily done
many years ago with I thinkgalleries, museums have always

(16:36):
had an engagement programme. Butreally, what is that civic role
now, of you know what is, whatwas our anchor point? What are
we doing in our communities, aswell as supporting artists, as
well as putting on exhibitionsand well as bringing in visitors
to see the works. So this ideathat you know, not just for
those in the asylum process, butfor anybody that faces barriers

(16:58):
to be a welcoming, warm space isreally important. And to try and
create community cohesionbetween people that may not
necessarily come together is soimportant right now. You know,
more so than ever before. And Iremember last year when there
was rioting and anti immigrationriots. Let's call them what they

(17:20):
are were have always happened,and, you know, for many years,
but they were, they kind of cameto light again last summer. And
at the time, it was these riotswere happening in low hotels and
other accommodation centres allaround different northern towns
and cities. And at the time,Wakefield didn't have that, and
the Art House was preparing forsomething bad to happen,
potentially, because we havesigns up saying, we welcome

(17:41):
everyone. We welcome refugees.And it didn't happen in
Wakefield, and it did get usthinking about, like, what is
Wakefield? What's special aroundit, and is it because we are
trying to include lots of peoplein the kind of conversations in
our art galleries and createcohesion together? You mentioned
the Wakefield Sanctuary Network.That was something that the Art

(18:02):
House founded two and a halfyears ago now and continues to
chair. And it was about bringingpeople together that work with
those that are forced,displaced, exiled or seeking
sanctuary, to come together, tohave these meaningful
conversations about what is ourrole in the city. And so again,
you know, at the time, I wasthinking, this is uncommon for
an art gallery to lead this, butthere was an identified lack of

(18:24):
people coming together on thetable, different charities,
different enterprise, socialenterprises that support those
coming together to see what isthe need. And between us, I
think it's really successful,because we can talk about what
people need, whether it'sservices, whether it's health,
whether it's creative, health,well being and access. And I
think coming together really isreally impactful on the city, to

(18:46):
show that we are a welcoming,safe city. So the network is
important. The studio sanctuaryis important. Us being a
Gallery of sanctuary is importantbecause we stage exhibitions
that bring up these themes aswell for visitors. So it's
really important that wecontinue to do all of that.
Yeah, no, that. It's anincredible opportunity. It's the
same as you being able to walkthrough the door of a free

(19:08):
museum as a child. It's anopportunity that if it didn't
exist, then transformativechange is less likely to follow.
And it's very clear fromeverything you're saying, how
humanity, or the human centredapproach taken at the Art House
is at the core of everything youdo, and it also helps respond to

(19:31):
misinformation, perhaps. Andalso it's problematic, isn't it,
how diverse groups of people arelabelled, such as ethnic
minority versus global majority,for example, or labels being
assigned rather than selfidentification. It's all part of

(19:54):
a power imbalance, and I imaginethis is something you're very
conscious of at the Art House.Yeah, definitely.
I mean, going right back to thefounding mission, you know, the
idea of the Art House, wantingto create a purpose built
building for access andinclusion was so important, and

(20:15):
it took them 15 years to finallyget a piece of land and the
funding to do it, because theydidn't want to compromise with
heritage buildings, and maybethey could have done it quicker
by going down a directdisability arts funding route,
but they didn't want that. Itwasn't about labels or anything.
That was about everyone beingtogether and making art

(20:35):
together. So at the time, it waswheelchair users and non
wheelchair users makingtogether, but to do that, you
have to have access and spacesfor the wheelchair users, and
that kind of remains the same.We're not a disabled disability
led arts charity. We're aboutaccess and inclusion. So we
support people facing poormental health challenges. We

(20:57):
support people with disabilitiesright through to supporting
global majority queer voices,those in the asylum process,
I've had to seek sanctuary. It'sreally important that it becomes
part of what we do and not benot add ons or dip ins and dip
outs, and it's really embeddedin what we do. And it's not
about tokenism and we jump inand out, or we don't just follow
funding for certain projects,which can happen in the art

(21:19):
world, like funding increasesfor some groups, and then it
disappears. So it's reallyimportant that we try and
sustain all of that. Weconstantly think about that a
lot. And the more I'm learningfrom people, and, you know, even
around this moment in time, withlots of rioting going on around
anti immigration, is just like,again, this idea of what an art
gallery is is shifting andchanging. And the public, the

(21:41):
ones that are, you know,conscious around supporting
people and welcoming and thinkof humanity first before
anything else, are looking tomuseums and galleries now to see
what's your point of view onthese things. And it's a
difficult space. But people thatare in certain groups, you know,
want true solidarity, and wewant to stand in solidarity with
people, and be able to not beafraid to say, this is what we

(22:01):
stand for, and this is what webelieve as a team. It's okay to
say that we disagree with thisor disagree with that, but it's
really hard for an art gallery,especially a public funded
gallery, to do that properly,and we are always looking to see
how we can do that better. And Ithink a lot more visitors and a
lot more people now areexpecting that of galleries and
museums. That's the how it'sevolved.
Yeah, it's really significantpoint. The evolution of the role

(22:26):
that galleries and the arts ingeneral can have, particularly
around social cohesion, societalhealth, as well as personal
health, mental health, there's areally significant development
of the role of the arts, and Iwondered what you might say to
anybody who felt intimidated byart settings, often a typical

(22:52):
reaction when it's not a usualpart perhaps of your culture, or
there may not be any immediateaccess art settings can be
perceived as too academic or tooposh, rather than personally
relevant or helpful to their ownlives. Yeah.

(23:12):
I mean, I'm constantly thinkingabout that question all the
time, within what we do andwithin what I want to be as a
curator, and always say all thetime that there is no such thing
as hard to reach audiences. Thegalleries themselves are the odd
to reach thing. If you don'tthink that space is for you,
you're not going to step throughthe door. But why are people not

(23:33):
stepping through the door? Andalso kind of to accept that, you
know, sometimes art galleries orfunders and things like that
will say, come to an art galleryand you'll be cultured. And I'm
always kind of saying, but who'sculture are we talking about
here? Like it's really hard tonavigate. I think the only
things you can do is try and beas open and welcoming as
possible, and you probably do dothat through engagement work to
begin with, and kind of goingout to work with people or

(23:56):
bringing people in. But you knowalso, galleries have got a long
way to go. You need your spacesto look and feel welcome in. I
think when you step into the arthouse, you kind of almost feel
like you're stepping into ahomely cafe and there's lots of
plants and it feels nice. You'renot actually stepping into an
intimidating gallery space. AndI find it so hard, as well as
someone that's worked in thearts for over 15 years, to step

(24:17):
into some galleries and museumsand commercial galleries even
more so it's it's anintimidating space. So how do
you break that down? I don'thave the full answers, but it's
definitely one that we'reconstantly looking at. But also,
I think representation in thegalleries, who's making
decisions, who's part of theteam, who, what, training people
have, all of that is a hugepart. And I think this idea that

(24:39):
the arts is quite a diversespace to work in. I think it's a
little bit of a myth. I think,you know, there's, you know,
there's still a lot of peoplethat are not represented in
leadership roles and decisionmaking roles. And, you know, I
think the Art House, we've justmoved into a core leadership
model, which for us is reallyexciting, because that's two
people's ideas. We can worktogether. We can bounce off each

(25:00):
other, but at the same time, weboth come from working class
backgrounds. It's female led,and then it's queer led, and
then it's working classexperience. And I think that's
really important that we sharethat story, because I think it
helps break some of those mythsaround who galleries are far and
what they're far, and also whatwe're programming the artists
we're working with and what theywant to you know, we've got to

(25:21):
remember as well is we do allthis great work and all this
social impact work, which Ithink is great, but also
fundamentally, we're here tosupport artists with their
careers, with making newartworks. So it's kind of
getting all of that together anddoing it for real meaningful
reasons. Is, I think, how we canstart to break it down. But I do
think we've got a long way to gobefore people might start

(25:44):
thinking, yeah, I could stepfoot in that art gallery, but
there's so many barriers, youknow, access barriers, people
that have got disabilities.We've got people that can't
afford, you know, entry fees.But I just think we need, it's
the art gallery that needs tolead that and steer that, and
think about how we can make thatmore accessible to lots of
different people. And actually,I need to point out it's okay

(26:06):
for an art gallery to not meeteverybody you know, I you know,
just because I feel reallyaccess and inclusion is really
important for me, it's alsothere's a space for all art
galleries in the UK to cater forlots of different things, and
it's great, but I think morepartnership, more acknowledging
who what, being honest aboutwhat you don't offer is really

(26:27):
important. And I think we don'tdo enough of that saying, like,
I can't offer this, but we caterto this group, you know. And
working partnership together isreally important. And I think
that's one of the failures ofthe art world, is that we don't
connect more. We don't co createtogether. We don't collaborate.
The art world is slightly behindwith that so, but there is a
place for everything. Butsometimes I think about being

(26:48):
honest. You know, don't have onthe website. We are art for
everybody, that that needs togo. You know, that that slogan
needs to disappear. We've got itin our website that says we
believe art should be foreveryone, but we realise it's
not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amore honest statement, because
it needs to be more aboutcollaboration and not

(27:10):
competition, particularly aftertwo decades of such severe and
disproportionate cuts, includingeducation. So there's a
significant deprivation therefor people's expectations and
understanding around the artsand arts pathways, and it's also
very much a need, as you werejust saying, to examine staffing

(27:31):
and governance as well as placesand access. And are there enough
places? And if there are, arethey accessible? What do they
look like? What do they feellike? But it's very much to the
credit of the art house in termsof demonstrating consistently

(27:53):
what is possible, despite notjust constraints, but awareness
of all of these very deepbarriers, I really appreciate
you taking the time to sharesuch important insights today
and your own personal story.Damon, thank you very, very
much.

(28:14):
Thank you. No, it's been I couldtalk about this for days, and
it's lovely to talk to you aboutit.
I'm now delighted to welcomeAmelia Baron, curator and
programme coordinator at the ArtHouse. Amelia, welcome to Can Art
Save Us? Hi.
It's great to be here, and thankyou so much for having me.
Thank you, Amelia. Can you sharewhat your pathway to becoming

(28:39):
the curator and programmecoordinator at the Art House was
and any personal barriers thatyou faced to work in the arts?
Yes, so my journey into the artsand further education was quite
unconventional. I ended upspending quite a lot of time in

(29:00):
hospital due to poor mentalhealth during my teenage years,
and it was the arts thatactually brought me that
cathartic, catharticism, andenabled me to use that as a tool
for recovery. I then ended upgoing to Leeds Arts University
to study fine art. And thenafter that, after I graduated, I

(29:24):
ended up at the Art House asfront of house, and it was from
there, really, that I worked myway up. And here I am now, five
years later, as a curator andprogramme coordinator. And I
feel incredibly lucky to havehad that opportunity.

(29:44):
And I remember Amelia, when wespoke previously, you said, "I
didn't even know you could getjobs in the arts." Was that
because your focus may have beenon becoming an artist, or was it
just lack of exposure to thekinds of roles that could exist.

(30:04):
I think
it was the latter. So yeah, lackof exposure. Growing up in
Blackburn, we didn't really havethat much culture going on in
terms of contemporary artgalleries, so I didn't know that
you could be a curator orprogramme coordinator, and I
didn't think you could be anartist either. I thought it was

(30:28):
something that was merelyhobbies or for the for those who
maybe had those opportunitiesdown in London. Yeah, it was
very unconventional. Let's say
it's a really important point,though, that you made, because
it's an example of civicempowerment, the fact that our

(30:49):
perspectives and ourexpectations can actually be
diversified. And it sounds likeyour entry into the Art House is
such a great example of thejourneys that you create there.
Previously, you've also spokenabout how the Art House fosters

(31:11):
relationships that are humancentred, and I wondered if you
could tell us how that guidesyour work.
Of course, that's somethingthat's really special to the Art
House, is human centredapproach, whether the artist is
emerging or established, wetreat them all the same, and we

(31:33):
really give our time and energyto supporting the artist. For
example, we've had Tonye, we'vehad Victoria. It's
beautiful how we then fosterthese relationships and continue
to support the artist as theymove through their career as
well. And it's just beautifulseeing how they blossom.

(31:56):
Yeah, and I'm actually reallyinterested in touching on both
of the artist names youmentioned, and also how risks
may be involved in your role. SoI recently spoke to Tonye Ekine
after his solo exhibition withyou. And for listeners, Tonye is
recognised as one of the top 40rising stars by the Royal

(32:19):
Society of British artists. Andyou can also hear an episode
with Tonye in the series. ButAmelia, Tonye notably referred to
you and Damon, the CO ExecutiveDirector, as taking a chance on
him after he didn't make aselection process. And I was

(32:40):
really interested in if youcould tell us about what that
journey was with Tonye at theArt House.
Of course. So we work with theRoyal Overseas League to offer a
residency at the Art House eachyear. And Tonye applied for
this, but unfortunately, didn'tmake the final two selection,

(33:03):
but after reading hisapplication and seeing his work
and just feeling that energythrough the application, we
wanted to offer him something,although we couldn't pay for his
time on this occasion, we wantedto get him to the Art House,
allow him to explore his hisprinting process that he

(33:26):
referred to in the application.And by doing this, we offered
him a two week stay at our billin our building, where we also
have flat studio spaces as wellas maker spaces as well. Yeah,
he really illuminated the placewith just such beautiful energy.
And yeah, the staff as well justso happy to have him around. And

(33:50):
he ended up becoming an integralpart of the art house family.
And I think that's somethingthat's worth celebrating as
well, is that when it's when anartist leaves, they don't fully
leave, they'll always be part ofthe Art House family.
It was really clear talking toTonye how happy his experience

(34:14):
was at the Art House, and veryclearly testimony to the human
centred approach that we've beentalking about. And equally, I'm
interested in Dr VictoriaClare's recent exhibition, Sense
of Sculpture, and that wasbilled as groundbreaking. And
for listeners, Victoria now has0% vision with only light

(34:39):
perception. So Amelia, how didthe Art House embrace Victoria's
work and change the visitorexperience?
We were working with Victoria,who is an incredible artist. We
wanted to offer our audiencessomething different. So with
Victoria's exhibition, it. Wasin complete pitch black and

(35:02):
allowed the audience to feel theartwork, something that is not
very often found within the art.And it was a really great
opportunity to learn more aboutVictoria as an artist, but also
to understand what those withvisual impairments do go through

(35:25):
as well, and that's what wereally want to do at the Art
House. We want to challengenorms. We want to challenge what
the art world is, but we alsowant to do that with compassion.
And this was just a really greatexample of how facing barriers
as well as being creative canreally benefit both audience and

(35:51):
artist.
Yeah, absolutely. And I thinkimportantly, this exhibition
really showed how we can allexperience things through senses
and emotions that there isn'tonly one way to look and these
experiences ought to be anintegral and equal part of how

(36:14):
we experience the arts. Whatcame out of the feedback Amelia,
in terms of visitors that cameto the exhibition.
Visitors felt deeply about theexhibition. We had a lot of
positive feedback, just again,challenging typical norms of
what a gallery can and can't be,and for a lot of the audience,

(36:38):
this was the first time thatthey had experienced something
like this. We, as well, workedwith a lot of different
charities, as well as Wakefielddistrict Sight Aid, and we will
continue to foster thatrelationship with those
organisations, to continuelearning about how we can make

(36:59):
the arts accessible to hopefullyeverybody.
Yeah, it is so important. Andclearly, from my point of view,
I see the Art House as such aleader in this. And would you
think it's fair to say the arthouse is more about courage over
convention and relevance overrules.

(37:23):
Exactly again we at the ArtHouse, I think it's something
really special, as the majorityof staff are also creatives, and
I think this gives us adifferent view on how the arts
can be accessible to theaudience.
Yeah, because it's partly thatlived experience, but that

(37:46):
shared understanding of thebarriers, the difficulties or
the pressures that artists canface
exactly, it's not an easy job.Is being an artist, having the
time, the money, the motivationand the space to be an artist is
is quite rare. So by offeringresidencies, by offering just

(38:13):
general compassion, it can makea world of a difference to an
artist and their journey withintheir practice.
So I'm also interested, Amelia,in your own work as an artist,
and how you visualise themes ofchaos and control in mental
illness. And I imagine thisrelates very well to your

(38:33):
emphasis on the importance ofbeing human centred. Yes.
So as previously mentioned, Iuse my art mainly as a tool for
recovery and communication andtrying to visualise what certain
mental health issues might looklike. For example, at

(38:53):
university, I did a performancecalled Obsession for Perfection,
and for five days it wasaligning rice grains, and this
was all about the control withinmental health issues, in
particular anorexia and eatingdisorders. And it was at
university that I found thisindependence and this voice that

(39:16):
I never knew I had. And so myart practice, again. I might not
be making as much art as I wouldlike, but it really does have a
tool for conversations to be hadabout mental well being as well
as other difficultconversations. I think that's
why I'm drawn to the arts aswell, because it's an

(39:38):
opportunity to have thesedifficult conversations and sit
in the uncomfortableness of itall.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant point. I really love
that phrasing to sit in. Youknow what's uncomfortable, but
nevertheless, that space canthen help cultivate. He.

(40:00):
Healing, courage and resilience.Would you agree? Definitely.
I mean, one performance I didwas at Sheffield train station,
where I set up almost like aliving room, and it was called
Take 10 and it was literallyjust asking people to sit down
for 10 minutes with no hierarchyin place, just generally, have a

(40:24):
conversation about how they werefeeling today. And again, it was
that courage and vulnerabilityof the audience to come and sit
with me. And again, sit in thatawkwardness and the human
centred approach as well of justkindness, we don't have enough
of it. Yeah.

(40:47):
Sadly, that is very true, andhappily, this is exactly what
the art house, artists likeyourself, in terms of personal
practice, are trying to championin terms of those changes in
compassion and understanding andhow the arts can help us achieve
that. And I think you really hitthe nail on the head when you

(41:09):
described Take 10 as not havinga hierarchy which is so clearly
reflected in your human centredapproach at the art house.
Amelia, I can't thank you enoughfor making time today. Thank you
so much for sharing yourpersonal stories and your
insights with us today.

(41:29):
No, thank you. It's been a realpleasure speaking with you.
After talking to Damon andAmelia, I've also had the
pleasure to catch up with twoartists who have recently
exhibited at the Art House,Tonye Ekine and Dr Victoria
Clair. Following Tonye Ekine's 2024 residency at the Art House,

(41:51):
he has recently had a successfulsolo exhibition there with, When
the Dawn Delays, We Rise Anyway.His work raises important
questions about how value isassigned and whose histories are
preserved, and I'll signpostthis on this episode page. Hello
Tonye, and welcome back toCan Art Save Us?

(42:13):
Hi Paula. It's nice to be back.Thank you for having me always.
Well bless you. It's a joy tohave you. And when we last
spoke, you were recently backfrom the Venice Biennale, and
you said Venice was areinforcement that voices are
valid, that representation iskey, and there's power in

(42:36):
community. And I'm interested inhow the Art House has deepened
and continued those values inyour journey.
I think the Art House is such aspecial place because it's very
big on community, not justcommunity among artists, but

(42:56):
community with the people inWakefield and in Yorkshire at
large, and just like communitywithin like the artists
institutions, and it was such avery warm reminder of how great
the institution is and theimportance of art in a city or
in a town, I think that house avery special place for me, and

(43:18):
I'm so grateful that I got toexperience it once again, and I
get to have a show that peoplecould connect to.
Well, I was lucky enough to cometo the opening, and that was
pretty much along with the wholeof Wakefield. And it was just
such a lovely experience becauseit was so clear how community is

(43:43):
an essential part of theexperience at the Art House, and
that's whether you're the artistinvolved or whether you're
somebody living locally or inthe wider region. And it was
impressive that the engagementwith the Art House was so
strong. Was that unexpected foryou? I mean,

(44:06):
it was a new thing for me,because, like, I bear in mind,
I've not done any solo showoutside of London before, and
also, I didn't have anycommunity outside of London, so
that house was my firstintegration to just like the
wider like Yorkshire, and seeinghow receptive people were. Like,
I mean, some people drove downfrom Doncaster, from Leeds, from

(44:30):
Huddersfield, and which is like,20, 30, minutes away, you have to
pay parking ticket to come. It'snot like in London, where you
just walk down, take a tube andlike, it's free, like, there's
some thoughts and effort to comeand spend two hours an
exhibition of an artist youdon't know. I think that was
very thoughtful. Also, it justshowed like the reach and the

(44:51):
impact of what the house hasbeen able to do. Because I feel
like every single person thatcame came with an open mind, and
like you said, All of. Wakefieldcame that was so nice to like,
get to know people that arelike, around Wakefield, maybe
run like the local bar or thelocal theatre, and it was just
very low for some of them, wastheir first time coming in, and

(45:13):
a lot of people like came inwith just like, an open mind.
And it was really nice. It wasnice to see there was a lady
that wrote, like a lovely poem.Someone spoke deeply of how just
the words and one of thepaintings really like, reminded
her like something that she hadgone through personally. And it
was just a very warmenvironment, because generally,

(45:33):
shout out to the people at thathouse, like every single person
in the team are just like lovelypeople. And I think by
extension, I feel like, when youhave someone that is really just
lovely and great and has a warmspirit, like organise something,
it just bleeds into whateverevents that they do. And by
chance, I was just lucky to bethe artist that got to, like,

(45:56):
witness this. So it was really,really beautiful. I mean, I had
the Mayor come down, which wasfunny. It was very interesting,
like, we had a feature on likethe Yorkshire Post, which was
lovely and nice. And I think itwas very interesting because I
didn't know anybody apart fromlike yourself and a couple of
other people. But was nice tomeet new people connect to your
work. And I think that's as anartist, you need that reminder

(46:20):
that like your work integrates,or like connects to people,
regardless of wherever anybody'sfrom, because it's like a
universal story that you'retrying to tell. And I think that
was just, it was, it was just ablessing to have. So yeah,
that's such a lovely account ofthat experience, because it
really did stand out how strongthe emotional connection was,

(46:45):
that people could engage on alevel that was personal and
meaningful to them, and so I sawnumerous bouquets of flowers.
There was a party thrown in yourhonour that for the rest of the
night.
It's actually my first time evergetting flowers. I'm not joking,
like it just blew me off mymind, because I never got

(47:07):
flowers before. So I gotflowers. I got two bouquets of I
was blushing like a little, likea little baby, okay, like I
did have a party, like beingable to throw, like an Afters
with a local bar called Elliot,which was lovely to host. It was
so nice because, if it showedthat, like, you could also
create, like, just a connectionoutside of an exhibition space.

(47:29):
So that was lovely for them toto do. We had such a great time.
Yeah, yeah. And it really stoodout to me when I was speaking to
Damon and to Amelia, how theyequally had an emphasis on who
you are in terms of enablingfriendship and emotional

(47:53):
connections. It was very much ashared collaboration in terms of
those values, of allowing art toreach out, to make connections,
and it was equally, very much atestimony to who you are.
It's, it's, I'll say, I'll say,thank you. But it's more about

(48:14):
like, it's a reflection of Damonand Amelia. They're very special
people to me, and I hold themhighly and like, I really love
them. They know I love themevery day, every time. If they
didn't take a chance on me, Iwon't be there. If they didn't
take a chance on me, I won'thave access to experience
Wakefield. And what's specialabout Wakefield, and just also,
I think that if I always saythat the exhibition was a labour

(48:36):
of love, because every singleperson came true for me, like
every single person that wasthere really, like, came true.
Like, Amelia was just so lovely,so sweet and just very
considerate. And Damon was justlike, yeah, just embodiment of,
like, love and energy and Lucy,oh, my god, Lucy, Lucy, like,

(48:57):
silently making sure that thingsare working out for every single
person, everybody is justlovely. And I feel like, for me,
it's important that we haveinstitutions that really care
about artists. Like everybodywas working on the lot on the
day, just for the exhibition,everybody did their best to make
sure that the works were goingup. Or like, if it was getting
the drinks or making thingsacting. I remember like some

(49:20):
people felt ill during thatperiod, and they still came out.
I know Lucy was supposed to goon holiday, and she moved that
holiday back, because she justrecently got married. Damon had
his his son or daughter'sbirthday, and I had to move
that. And I was like, they're sothoughtful, because him and his
husband were, like, preparingfor, like, their baby's
birthday, and I was so gratefulfor him to be around like

(49:43):
Amelia. Also, I could go onabout like every single person
in the team. And I think it'ssomething special, like it's,
it's, it's reinforced two thingsfor me. One, there's to be so
much support for ourinstitutions outside of London,
because London is not just theonly place in the UK that's one,
two also is just the importanceof how it feels like artists by

(50:07):
artists, for artists, it justleaves a good impression for
you, I think, as an artist, tokeep on going, Yeah, not
to get too emotional, but theteam at the Art House, they're like
my family, and I just love them,and I'm just so grateful that I
got to yeah, just spend time andcreate something that they're
proud of, hopefully they'reproud of, yeah, yeah.

(50:28):
And you know, everything yousaid really does support how
genuinely committed andcollaborative the Art House team
are, and something that Ameliahighlighted was the Art House is
human centred. And this is quitea distinction. Obviously, there

(50:52):
are lots of places that care, ofcourse, about the relationships
they have, but the Art House ishuman centred at its core, and
yet it's delivered top tobottom. You notably said they
took a chance on me. What do youmean by they took a chance on
me? Is there something radical?If you like that, you feel

(51:16):
they're brave enough to do that.They're not just being led by
conventions of the art world.They're being led by the values
that they hold.
They follow their ethos andtheir values to the core as much
as possible, because just a bigbackstory was how I got into the

(51:36):
house at the first time was Iapplied for I got shortlisted
for Top 40 artists to watchin the ROL competition, and
then I applied to getting a residency as part of the perks
for being a finalist. And Ididn't win. I didn't make it,
but Damon and Amelia were sotouched by my application that

(51:58):
they were like, oh, you knowwhat, you didn't win, but we
really loved you. I love whereyou stand for where your artwork
speaks to. Would you mind comingfor a residency for two weeks,
and it wasn't paid? But you knowwhat the Art House does? Gives you
accommodation on access tofacilities, and they gave like,
a small quota of 500 poundsbecause they didn't even have

(52:21):
the budget for it, for me tojust come and experiment, I felt
like, for the directors and justthe people that run an
organisation to be so thoughtfulabout every single person that
writes an application and belike, care about my work, that
really moved me. So I jumped atit, and I was so excited to come
down. And when I came like, itwas a place of, like, healing,
just like rest. There's nopressure. It's more about is

(52:45):
what you want to make from theresidency that I think, that
they really support as much aspossible, and just learning so
much about, like, what the Art Housemeans, because they're the first
Sanctuary of Hope in all of theUK. They're the one of, I think,
if not the only accessible spacefor artists and people with
special needs to be able to worktogether. And these are things

(53:07):
that you learn like so forexample, and they're very
intentional about it, like whenwe're doing the exhibition, it
had to, the exhibition had to befree flowing, because the Art House
gets to every single personand makes sure that, like the
exhibition was movable, enoughbreathable space, like, just
access to be able to use, like,even just working in the

(53:27):
studios, booking with thestudios, there's always, like, a
technician, there's around,there's an artist that works in
the house to help you. And solike, like, when I was working
on, like, the ceramics andsculpture, Hannah is always
there to like, help like, and tomake sure that, like, there's
assistance for every singleartist. You don't even feel like
it felt like you had, like, yourpersonal tutor, but like you're

(53:51):
sharing that with, like, withfour other people. And, yeah, it
was just just a mindfulness anda thoughtfulness that it's for
everybody. There's a lady calledLinda that does this, like, I'll
say, like, Community Centreprogrammes for asylum seekers,
people that are recovering from,yeah, different situations. And

(54:12):
it's just like a lovely group ofwomen that come together, and
sometimes you see men also inthe group. And we're either bead
making today or wear glasspainted the next day, or
learning about someone'spractice. And you get cheeky
coffee and biscuits and it'sjust very warm, and you just see
people come in and it's just solovely. Or on Saturdays, you

(54:35):
have like, families just comedown and sit by the craft shop.
It was such a wholesome way tosee how our institutions should
actually impact communities, notjust by doing exhibitions, but
being a space where people feelwelcome from different age
groups. For me, it almost likere emphasise how I want to as an

(54:58):
artist when I make it, how Iwant to give back and be
impactful. And I think that theyare doing so many things that we
need more institutions like theArt House in Wakefield, because
they're really doing somethingspecial. I tell Damon that a lot
that I do see that the housefeels like an oasis, and I feel
like we need it to be like, likefresh water that just keeps

(55:20):
flowing out flowing. And itshouldn't be rare. It should be
something that is Yeah,consciously just supporting as
much as possible. Every artistshould experience it. Yeah, it's
a wonderful testimony to thevalues they hold and deliver,
and the inclusivity is is soimportant and so welcome, and

(55:42):
hence my interest in featuringthe Art House, and in my
opinion, as a leader and as athought leader in terms of how
the arts can be delivered andhow the arts can include
everybody. So Tonye, thank youso much for being part of this
Art House feature to helpillustrate the experience from

(56:05):
an artist's point of view. Andcongratulations, of course, on
your successful solo exhibition.
Thank you for having me. It'sbeen a pleasure, of course, like
it's you, but it's also you aredoing the same thing what the
Art House is doing. And I justfeel like, yeah, we need more
support for platforms like yoursand the Art House to just learn more

(56:27):
on artist experience, but also justhave more institutional
support. It's platforms andorganisations and people that
are really making a differenceon touching lives and making the
art world a bit better setting,like a bit more sunshine and
like, yeah, just making it justa wholesome space to be in an
industry that people want toactually have a career inside.

(56:51):
So thank you to you both, and Ilove you guys always, always,
always will.
Oh, bless you. And right back atyou, of course, and I'm looking
forward to when our paths crossagain. Thank you so much Tonye,
it's been an absolute pleasure.I'm very pleased to welcome Dr

(57:11):
Victoria Clair, who has alsorecently exhibited at the Art
House with a groundbreakingexhibition Sense of Sculpture.
Victoria is a registered blindprofessional artist in
contemporary sculpture. Sheworks in the medium of wood.
With over 30 years of practice,Victoria has had commissions all
over the world. Exhibitions haveincluded the House of Commons in

(57:34):
London, and she has beenrecognised for her outstanding
contribution to public art,Sense of Sculpture invited
visitors to rethink how weconnect with art, with each
other and the world around us byheightening our sensory and
emotional experiences withoutthe distraction of sight. Hello

(57:56):
Victoria and welcome to Can ArtSave Us? Hi, Paula, how are you?
Oh, good, and I'm absolutelydelighted you can join me. So
thank you again for making thetime. Thank you for having me.
So firstly, congratulations, ofcourse, on Sense of Sculpture,
and for the listeners, could youshare how this exhibition has

(58:18):
been groundbreaking forvisitors, but also how this
reflects your personal storytoo.
Yeah, of course I can. So it wasback in 2018 when I first put
this particular concepttogether. At that time, it was
called Blind a Sixth Sense, andI basically, I wanted to

(58:40):
celebrate the fact that I'dfinally cracked, if you like,
using my mobility cane. It wassomething for me with
progressive sight loss that Inever really wanted to use.
There was a little stigma aroundit, a little bit of judgement.
And, yeah, I was a bit stuckwith it, really. So I finally
got through that barrier andused the mobility cane and found

(59:01):
such a profound sense of freedomand inner trust, and I wanted to
articulate that in the way thatI always do in terms of my
artistic practice, by creating avery conceptual idea within arts
and culture that could actuallyopen up the minds and

(59:23):
accessibility inclusivity withinarts and culture. So I set about
creating six sculpted pieces atthat time, each piece depicted
the senses with the sixth sense,trying to articulate that sense
of freedom and trust withinmyself. I then decided to put

(59:44):
those pieces into a completelypitch black gallery space at
this point, and still, I believeI still am the only artist that
has done that in the UK. So itwas, it was quite, you know, it
was quite groundbreaking. Andthe outcome was astounding, to
be honest, it saw such a hugefootfall people to visit, so it

(01:00:06):
really got a lot of attention.And the outcomes from the
visitors was, yeah, they werevery, very, you know, impressed,
but also had profoundexperiences within that gallery
space themselves. So with that,I was asked to put a proposal in

(01:00:26):
to the Turner in Margate,which obviously, you can
imagine, was quite, quiteexciting for me at that time.
This was back in 2019 and then,as everything happens, as you
know, proposals for mainstreamgalleries. It's usually about a
two year waiting list, and Covidcame along. So unfortunately, it

(01:00:47):
kind of it took everything outat that time, as it did for most
people, to be fair, and itwouldn't say, I wouldn't say the
idea was lost. I just think itgot moved on due to Covid. And
it wasn't until I startedworking as the as a university
lecturer up at the GreaterManchester University, which
used to be known as BoltonUniversity, as a fine arts

(01:01:09):
lecturer. And I started to talkabout this exhibition, which
started to highlight it, just inmy mind initially, but also in
many colleagues minds as well. Iwas speaking to a colleague
about it, and he suggested thatI got in touch with Barbara
Hepworth the Wakefield. So Idid, and that is where I was

(01:01:30):
then, literally in touch withthe wonderful Damon Jackson. And
that's when he kind of said,hey, look, you know what? I
love, this concept. How do youfeel about doing it again? And
that's where it all started,really.
Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Whata brilliant connection to make.
So of course, this is aculmination of so many

(01:01:53):
adjustments and adaptions,obviously in your personal
journey living with progressivesight loss, but also how the
exhibition idea has been keptalive and evolved, and it's very
much a story of courage as wellas creativity. And I wondered if
finding a home, if you like, inthe Art House, was very much in

(01:02:18):
relation to their willingness toadapt and to embrace courage to
do things differently.
Absolutely, I think one of thefirst conversations that I had
with Damon, he was so positivearound inclusivity, diversity
and accessibility, those threethings were very core in his own
message, which, of course, youknow, just aligned beautifully

(01:02:42):
with with my own core practiceand my own journey with sight
loss as well. So it just feltthe right place to try and alive
and this wonderful exhibitiononce more, due to the fact that
I'm doing a PhD by professionalpractice, this involves me kind
of retrospectively looking at myown journey with sight loss, my

(01:03:05):
creative practice, and also, youknow, the growth that has come
through and from that. So itkind of aligns with everything
about the PJ and actually theworkshop that I'm working on at
the moment. So I deliver aworkshop that is called
Developing an Enhanced EmbodiedCognition using a sensory

(01:03:27):
learning approach. Basicallythat means I take the
distraction of vision away fromthe students. They are
blindfolded. They are asked tosit in 10 minutes contemplation
before then articulating thefeelings that come through from
that 10 minutes ofcontemplation, there's a lot of

(01:03:47):
fear, there's a lot ofconfusion, there's a lot of
unawareness, isolation, allkinds of visceral and emotional
experience come to thesestudents Before they articulate
it into the clay. But the pointof the exercise is to show how
art can be a recovery, you know,an aid to recovery and also help

(01:04:11):
us kind of, you know, processtrauma and process what's going
on in our lives and ourfeelings, and help us engage
with the environment on asensory level, ourselves on an
understanding of an internalawareness, and each other as
human beings. So that kind ofwas the evolving part of the

(01:04:33):
exhibition, in a way, which wasrun alongside the exhibition at
the Art House as well, which wasa really great opportunity for
me to, you know, get that dataand that feedback from not just
the exhibition, but also fromthe participants of the
workshop.
Yeah, absolutely. And perhaps wecan bring that to life a little

(01:04:54):
more for the listeners, in termsof sense of sculpture. So in the
same way. You helped set up thatdarkness, that removal of the
distraction of vision with yourstudents, visitors, of course,
to sense of sculpture, were alsoguided through a pitch black

(01:05:14):
gallery. And I wondered if you'dlike to illustrate how that
worked for the listeners. Butalso, again, in terms of
feedback, did it deepen theexperience? Were there any
surprises or emotionalconnections that people may have
not otherwise encountered?

(01:05:34):
Absolutely so if I take you on alittle touch tour, we call it
that. So visitors were kind ofgathered into the reception
area, and no more than fourpeople could go in at a time,
obviously, for, you know, safetyreasons. They were asked if they
wanted guided assistance. But itwas choice. And actually, I

(01:05:55):
don't think many people wantedit. They wanted to actually go
in there on their own, usingtheir own awareness and using
the kind of accessibility thatwe'd put in place in the gallery
space, a curtain was put acrossthe very, very thick curtain was
put across the main door area,which then guided you through to

(01:06:17):
a rope. There was a guide ropethat you would hold in your left
hand or your right hand,dependent on on the direction of
which you're going in. So theywere then asked to follow a
paved, tactile paving on thefloor. Now that was also the
same as blind a sixth sense, soI kind of just used all of those

(01:06:37):
safety features and thosenavigational features in the
same way at the Art House. Sothey were then following the
rope until they reached a smallribbon. They would feel the
small ribbon and then realisethat's where the sculpture was
sitting on a plinth. And thenthey would touch the piece that
continued right the way aroundthe eight sculptures around the

(01:07:00):
edge of the room, and then theywas basically led out the same
direction as they came in, interms of what the feedback was
like. It just was so varied. Imean, I had people that just
absolutely, in all honesty, justcompletely lost their sense of
direction, their sense ofmobility, they felt unsafe to

(01:07:25):
move because they couldn't seeother people. Felt a connection
to themselves straight away,which was quite interesting,
because not everybody is able todo that. So you know, the fact
that we have people that couldconnect with those other senses
on a quicker level, use those,those tactile and those sounds

(01:07:49):
and those smells and those youknow, all of the sensory,
embodied knowledge that we all,we all have within us, some
people could connect to thosequicker than others. I think
initially we as humans, therecertainly is proof that we take
in information 80% through ourvision, which seems crazy, and

(01:08:10):
the fact that, you know, we'reso visually dominant, it was
such an interesting experiment,if you like, to actually see how
we could interact you know, withart, but with ourselves in that
way, without vision and thefeedback was very, very varied.
I even had people literally kindof just felt suffocated to the

(01:08:33):
point where they had to removethemselves from the exhibition.
This is really interesting,because all of these responses,
of course, are really valid,because obviously, on one side,
there can be excitement ofencountering in a completely new
way, where senses are elevatedthrough touch, through feel,

(01:08:57):
through smell, but at the sametime, it's equally important,
isn't it, to hear that actuallyI felt unstable or suffocated,
even you know, surprisingresponses, because, of course,
this all feeds into youradvocacy work, being able to
understand our experiences,whether we have sites, whether

(01:09:19):
we're partially sighted, whetherwe're blind, for example. So how
significant has this been inrelation to your advocacy role
and research?
In terms of my research, it'svery, very pivotal, because at
the end of the day, it's kind ofhelped me realise and actually

(01:09:40):
prove a few things, to behonest. So initially, I want to
explore as a post PhD research,the possibility and the
potential of something that Iwould coin as blindness
anthropology. So by that, what Imean is it's not just knowledge
that. Sits within our bodiesonce that is transferred into

(01:10:04):
doing, because once, once we doan action, the action becomes
knowledge within itself. Soblindness, anthropology, I want
to look at the three coreprinciples, which is what I've
coined, a phrase called PEG. Sowe have P, which is perceived
through your remaining senses.We have E, which is engage

(01:10:28):
through your embodied knowledge,and then we have G, which is
give meaning through yourvisceral and emotional
responses. So those three coreprinciples, that's how I live my
life as a blind person, and I'msure that's how many other blind
people live their lives as well.And to be fair, it's quite an

(01:10:51):
alternative way of being in theworld, but it's actually an
incredibly richer and fullerexperience, because we don't
have that dominance of vision todistract us, which enables us to
actually engage on a much moredeeper level. So I'm hoping that
you know, the experience of thevisitors and the audience have

(01:11:15):
actually been able to maybe justengage in one of those even if
they've just managed to engagewith one of those core
principles. I think that's abuilding block to go forward for
the future.
That's so interesting. Andactually it's a good point to
share with listeners somecontext on Wakefield. So
Wakefield, where the Art Houseis, is also known as the capital

(01:11:41):
city of sculpture because it wasthe birthplace of Henry Moore
and Barbara Hepworth, who you'vementioned two of the 20th
century's most famoussculptors, and they're both
major art sites in the UK and indifferent ways, Victoria, you
all challenge the visualexperience of sculpture. So
Hepworth and Moore, we can say,challenge the traditional

(01:12:03):
experience of sculpture bymoving beyond representation to
abstraction. And of course,you're moving beyond vision.
Yes, absolutely. I mean, I mustjust say Henry Moore and Barbara
Hepworth, most certainly,Barbara Hepworth were such
important icons in my artisticjourney, their style. I love

(01:12:25):
their style. It certainly ithelped me understood my own kind
of movement as I've movedthrough my vision, my own style
of work has become verysymbolic, very form and shape
based as well. So yes, that'ssomething that's been gifted by
those two wonderful artists, butI agree. I mean, initially, when

(01:12:46):
they started, they were greatadvocates of sculpture being a
tactile experience, and it's athree dimensional, beautiful way
of actually engaging with workthrough the hands. And I guess
my kind of ethos, if you like,in my research, is hopefully
going to sort of take that onestep further and actually go

(01:13:08):
beyond the hands, if you like,and use a much more whole
modality within the whole of ourbodies, not just to kind of
understand artwork, But I think,for the future, to understand
ourselves. Maybe, you know, ifthis could help in psychology,
in health, in well being,there's so many different sort

(01:13:30):
of ways that this could help usas the human race that we are,
you know, because we're sodistracted by vision.
Absolutely and something elsethat I thought was interesting
in relation to Hepworth andMoore was they were also
considered pioneers in makingpiercings in sculptures. And I
wondered again, if you couldhelp share with listeners your

(01:13:53):
own use of piercings in your ownwork. And I was actually
thinking about the Guardianpiece as an example in Sense of
Sculpture.
Yes, yes. So as the years havegone on, my style has kind of
taken its own form. As I said,it's very form and shape based.
It's very flowing lines, verycurved lines, not many straight

(01:14:16):
lines, to be fair. And thepiercings are quite integral to
the design of the work, becauseI think that allows a depth and
a spatial awareness when you'refeeling work that you don't
necessarily would expect. Soagain, it's intriguing to feel

(01:14:36):
that and how that works into theoverall design. But also I I
express the piercings withsuspensions as well. So quite
often I will suspend, kind oflike nylon string with a
suspended piece inside it. Youknow, often I will use crystals,
for example, Amethyst and thingslike that to use that sense. Of

(01:15:00):
that internal awareness, becauseI think I'm quite a spiritual
person anyway. So I like to, Ilike to get people to go beyond
in in many ways, you know, notjust vision, but actually reach
a spiritual understanding ofthemselves. And of course, using
gemstones and crystals is quitea nice way of doing that?

(01:15:21):
Yes, beautiful. And that drawsme to a quote from you, where
you said, "My newfound acceptanceof my blindness has given me a
freedom to live my life in alimitless way." How do you feel
your life is limitless now and whatcan it teach all of us?

(01:15:43):
I think I speak of somethingthat is part of my research,
which is post traumatic growth,the trauma of losing your sight
in terms of whether you lose itvery suddenly, or whether you
lose it progressively, likemyself, is extremely traumatic,

(01:16:04):
as as I'm sure you can imagine,and especially when it's
progressive, because you getused to a certain amount of
vision loss, you adapt to thatat the time, and then the next
part of the vision loss happens,and you start on all over again.
So it's actually, there's alittle bit of PTSD involved
there, yeah, as well.

(01:16:25):
So it's like being retraumatised,
isn't it? Absolutely it's, it'sbeen referred to as certainly
falling under the the umbrellaof complex PTSD. But the beauty
of post traumatic growth is thathaving PTSD allows you to find
growth. It doesn't happen foreverybody, but it can happen

(01:16:49):
very successfully. And part ofpost traumatic growth is finding
personal, personal awarenessdevelopment. It's finding
resilience, mainly, andstrength. So those things that
post traumatic growth stand for,I would say, are the very things
that I found within my own life,and that is what makes me

(01:17:11):
realise that actually, I don'tbelieve that blindness is a
deficit. I think blindness hasbeen my gift.
That's incredible, isn't it whatan important and powerful
statement you can make because,of course, all of the learning
and lived experience behindthat. And I wonder how you feel
about the series question, Canart save us?

(01:17:35):
Absolutely, it saved me.
You know, it was the very vesselthat was always the constant for
me to be able to articulate myinner feelings, because I've not
always been able to do that.And, you know, I was diagnosed
with losing my sight at a veryyoung age of 19, so it was very
difficult for me to to kind ofget my head around what was

(01:17:58):
actually happening to me andwhat my future even held. You
know so engaging with sculpturehas been a healing process that
has very much played a very bigpart to my growth.
Thank you so much, Victoria forsharing your personal journey
and such courageous andcompassionate work that you know

(01:18:22):
is also about enabling so manymore people to not only
experience art, but how we canall experience art through
multiple senses and in differentways and make important
connections in new ways. And I'dalso like to congratulate you
that in 2024 you were awarded anHonorary Doctorate of Arts from

(01:18:47):
the University of GreaterManchester for your Outstanding
Contribution to Public Art. Yourachievements are outstanding.
Thank you. Thank you. I thinkwhen that actually happened to
me, it was such an honour. Itreally was. And you know, when I
received the letter, literally,it was through an email, and my
device read it to me, and Icouldn't quite believe it.

(01:19:10):
Wow, yeah, as it unfolds in yourears, how lovely. Yeah. And to
listeners, I hope you found bothcomfort and inspiration in this
Art House feature, along withsomething that encourages you to
find, create or start asking forspaces in your own community
where the arts can bring peopletogether, curiously and happily,

(01:19:31):
all links will be sign posted onthis episode page so you can
discover more. And as always,please share this free to listen
series wherever you can to helpmake the arts all of ours.

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