May 4, 2022 • 34 mins
We are pleased to bring you a two-part episode, hosted by IMPACT Director, Jon Glasby, focussing on the work being done in IMPACT (IMProving Adult Care Together), the new UK centre for implementing evidence in adult social care. Funded, by the ESRC and the Health Foundation, with £15m over nearly 7 years, IMPACT seeks to help evidence of what works get used in practice to make a difference to services, and hence to people’s lives.
"We believe that good care isn’t about services, but about having a life – and that evidence can play a key part in achieving this vision."
The University of Sheffield is a partner in IMPACT. IMPACT draws on knowledge gained from different types of research, the lived experience of people using services and carers, and the practice knowledge of social care staff.
Part one
Jon Glasby (Host)
Jon is a qualified social worker by background, and works as Professor of Health and Social Care at the University of Birmingham. He is Director of IMPACT. Click here to learn more at Jon's profile page at the University of Birmingham.
Karen McCormick
Karen is parent to you a young adult with an intellectual disability who draws on social care. Karen contributed to the work of the Northern Ireland IMPACT assembly in the design phase through her lived experience contributions to the temporary co-production advisory panel and is now Lived Experience Engagement Lead for IMPACT.
Karen's LinkedIn Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/karenmccormickincharge
Twitter: @InCharge_HQ & @killaney
Terry Davies
Terry is an IMPACT Assembly member for Wales and is a person of lived experience, employed by West Wales Action for Mental Health (click here to visit their website).
Obert Tawodzera
Obert is a Research Fellow at the University of Birmingham and IMPACT’s Project Officer. He completed his PhD at Sheffield University and was part of the Sustainable Care programme led by Professor Sue Yeandle.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:20):
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and Circle,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series,
our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care.
(00:44):
As we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Hello, everyone.
My name's Jon Glasby.
In my day job, I'm Professor of healthand social care at the University
(01:05):
of Birminghamand a former social worker by background.
But I'm also the director of IMPACTwhich stands for IMProving
Adult Care Together it's the new UK centre
for implementing evidencein adult social care that's come very much
out of some of the relationshipswe built with the sustainable care
projects led by SueYeandle and colleagues at Sheffield.
(01:29):
And I'm joined today by a number of peoplewho are really experienced
in different partsof the social care system across the UK,
but have also been really involvedin helping to shape IMPACT's
early thinking and its development .
Karen Terry And Obert.
So I'll ask you each
to introduce yourselvesand Karen, I'll come to you first.
(01:49):
Thanks, Jon.
I suppose my involvement is
and the co-production panelfrom the Northern Ireland perspective
and from a lived experienceas a carer of 20 years.
And I also have a particular interestin personalisation of care
and how technology can improve or
enable personalisation in care as well.
(02:10):
Thanks, Karen.And then I'll come to Terry.
Hello, my name is Terry Davis and I workfor West Wales Action for Mental Health
and I'm, if you can call me a personwith lived experience.
And I'm also studying part time for a PhDlooking at the transition
from asylum based care to communitycare across Great Britain.
(02:30):
Thanks, Terry and
Obert Hello my name is Obert TawodzeraI'm currently working
as IMPACT's Project Officer,working with Jon Glasby.
I recently completed my PhDat the University of Sheffield,
which was also partof our sustainable care programme.
And my background is I'm also a former
(02:52):
care worker myself,so I really enjoy working with people
and I'm more into tryingto make a difference in adult social care.
Thank you Thanks, everyone.
It's great to have you here today.
I suppose I wanted to start offjust based on your different experiences
in different partsof the UK, in different parts of the
the social care system, if you like, what
(03:14):
we all see as some of the big challenges
but also opportunitiesfacing adult social care at the moment.
Terry, maybe I'll come to you
for a view from you, if that's okay.
Thanks, Jon, Well,I've been working really hard away
from what we call Wamh (03:29):
West Wales Action on Mental Health for the last few years,
closely with our partnersin our university health board
and also with colleaguesin the local authorities.
You know,I think there are lots of amongst
all difficultiesand a lot of opportunities.
And I guess, you know, John,it's about having a vision about,
you know, how we can go forwardand also how we can better work together
(03:52):
in true partnership workingthere's a lot of Talk these days
about partnership working,but so often is just on paper, as it were.
And it's a real challenge, isn't it,to truly work in partnership with people
coming from oftenvery different differing perspectives.
So I guess what we want to see more of is,is true partnership working also,
(04:13):
you know, with the whole thingof co-production actually getting people
with lived experience truly involved inplanning and delivering services as well.
And that's what we tryand do through WAMH actually,
whether it be involvingso-called service users with interviews
or on on various committees and panelsso that their voice can be heard.
I think, you know, historicallywhen it comes to mental health,
(04:35):
people,people's voices haven't been heard.
So it's trying to get those voicesheard really, and not have services
that just do things to people,but actually start to work with people
and actually help people to worktruly in partnership with people, I guess.
John, that's so important.
Yeah. Thanks, Terry.And you kind of mentioned vision.
Does that does that imply that you thinkthat vision is looking at the moment
(04:58):
that we haven't gotthat kind of guiding set of principles to
take us from where we arenow to where we want to go?
Trouble is because of everything'sbeen going on,
especially the last couple of years.
It comes to a degree of being lost.
So I guess is trying to
repurpose the vision and trying to set outonce again really, isn't it,
putting people at the heart of servicesand importantly, as I said,
(05:19):
not just doing things to people, butallowing people to do things themselves.
You know, I think in mental health,traditionally it's been
it's been really hardfor statutory services to actually
give people the permissionto actually do things and to appreciate
that people can do an awful lotif given those opportunities, actually.
So but, you know,
there's a lot of talk, John, these daysabout recovery and mental health services.
(05:40):
But recovery can be risky
when you hand back control,if you like, to people themselves.
So I think services need to be realigned
in that sense and actually workwith people and not just do things
to people actuallyfor people to really realise recovery.
Yeah.
Thanks, Terry.
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And Karen, I suspect that might chimewith your experience as well as a family.
(06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the whole system approachneeds to be re-imagined.
I agree with Terry in termsof the partnership working and partnership
working is difficult, but that doesn'tmean it's not worth doing.
But also the fundingI think the funding has to follow through.
There's been a lot of talkabout the transformation and the vision,
(06:25):
as Terry says, but action really needs.
You know, we need to seeand it really needs to be flipped
on its heads so if we're looking at personcentred solutions,
then we need to go from the grassroots uprather than a top down approach.
And that's valuing the work of those onthe ground, whether it's lived experience,
whether it's the communityand voluntary sector or social enterprises
(06:49):
and value in the workforce.
And I think it's really importantthat that's all part of the solution.
Having recently introduced a personalisedcare arrangement in our family,
it is transformative.
It has transformed our lives.
And I think if we can showwhat's possible, even if it is one family
at a time or one project at a time,then that helps change the narrative.
(07:13):
That has been quite negative,I think, around social care.
Yeah, thanks. Willcome onto this a bit later.
But IMPACT's vision or mission statementis, is that good
care isn't about services,it's about having a life.
And I wonder whether that speaksto Terry's thoughts on vision and
and your sort of thoughts,Karen, on sort of positivity
and that sort of transformative experienceas well.
(07:34):
And Obert I'll come to you.
What what what would you sayabout some of the challenges,
but also the opportunitiesfacing adult social care?
Thank you, JonI agree a lot with Terry and and Karen.
When it comes to the ideas aroundworking together, the ideas around
collaboration is one big opportunitythat we can have in social care.
(07:56):
But the biggest and all of the keycontextual challenges
that are there in adult social care inthe meantime
are mainly to do with funding,as Karen has said and it's the first thing
that needs to be addressedfor everyone to be able to come together.
We need to get that fundingto flow across the social care spectrum.
(08:17):
And the other thing that is a keychallenge is that we've got a very big
and very diverse sectorwith many competing interests.
And in all its diversity,the social care sector,
There is no kind of coming togetherwith different stakeholders.
So there are many peoplewith competing interests.
(08:37):
And one of the things that could happenthat could make it more better
is that that diversity of the social carecould be it's its biggest opportunity.
It's a challenge, yes.
But that will be its biggestopportunities.
Opportunity,if people could be able to come together,
because at the heart of itis the need for meaningful collaboration
between all of those who are involvedin adult social care
(09:01):
and be it researchers at the academics,be it commissioners practitioners.
But also the most important thing
is to make surethat whatever happens in social care,
we don't forget the lived experiencesof those who use the services
and also their carers and the workthat is done by the workforce.
(09:24):
You know, the adult social careworkforce is another
big challenge that we havebecause it continues to be undervalued.
The work that is done in social careand that undervaluing of the which means
that we have big challenges to try andmake sure that social care is respected
and is put at par with the workthat is done in the NHS, for example.
(09:45):
Yeah, thanks.
I really agree with that.
And we started to get into this already,but I was going to ask next,
what are some of the things that that stoppositive change on the ground
in frontline services?
We've mentioned kind of funding.
We've mentioned some of the disruptionsthat we've we've all faced
during the COVID.And I guess we've mentioned a lack of
almostsocietal value that we give to the care
(10:08):
and caring relationshipsas some of the things that hold us back.
But from your different experiencesand again
from your different locations,all that other kind of key things that
that stop positive changefrom happening on the on the ground.
Karen, I'll come to you first.
Yeah, I think then the ability to embraceinnovation.
(10:28):
Innovation
often comes from peoplethat are really stuck on a problem.
So it could be a lived experienceor a community organisation
that have brilliant ideasand are often given a better service
than the service providersthat are, you know, contracted to do so.
So it's about getting them establishedor getting them off the ground
(10:51):
and getting them embedded into the widerservices,
you know,if they're proven to be successful.
And so scaling thoseand using really good examples.
Across from from across the world, really,not just across the UK, but,
you know, seeing what works bestand trying it and not being afraid.
(11:12):
I think there's sometimes a lack of,
you know, positive attitude aroundtaking a risk, you know, a positive risk.
And it could be a low cost risk.
But from a commissioner's point of view,it's really
trying new things and new ways
and and to check and do the work
and looking at the procurement aroundthat, you know, is a that's a barrier.
(11:36):
But I think attitudescan be a barrier as well.
And has that been your own experienceKaren?
I know you've kind of innovated as a asas a person and as a family, haven't you?
And then you've tried toto take that innovation and share it with
with others so that they benefit, too,from that transformation.
It sounds like you'respeaking very much from
personal experienceof battling with some of that inertia.
(11:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And and the system, I suppose, for social
innovation is quite fragmented.
So whether you're a social enterpriseor you're a for profit or you're
a not for profit,you still seem to fall between the stools.
And so, you know, getting funding,getting traction,
there is enormous goodwillfor lived experience, innovation.
(12:20):
But again, getting it off the groundso that it can
even just be proven as challenging.
But it's exciting as wellbecause we're living it.
I can see the problemreally, really in detail.
I live the problem every day, but alsoI can see what the solution needs to be
and talking with within the networkof people that believe that as well.
(12:44):
So while it is challengingit's it's a really exciting time as well.
And ObertI know when you were a care worker,
how did you try and do some of that?
presumably its quite difficultto make positive change sometimes
in the reality of frontline services.
And I know you went away to to studyand to do your research and do your PhD
(13:04):
to find ways of helpingto make a difference
and to make you a better workerand practitioner as well as a researcher.
But but what was your experienceas a as a former care worker
that that the things that held you back
when you were tryingto make positive changes.
Thank you, John.
Yes, the waya lot within the social care workforce
(13:25):
and mainly with peopleworking in social care.
These are the people who understandwhat's happening on the ground
and they are the people who are therewho are looking
after the vulnerable adults, for example.
But the problem that you face
normally when you are a care workeris that you are never listened to.
(13:47):
There's sort of like a top downkind of approach to doing things.
And these are sort of a culturethat is more managerial
and very bureaucratic, where you haveto follow certain procedures,
even though those procedures, youyourself will be thinking
that they might not be workingfor the person,
maybe that you are looking afteror the person that you're supporting.
(14:10):
So that's one big issuethat is there in social care
that sort of like hinders innovation,especially that innovation
that is supposed to comefrom our bottom up
because people who are working in socialcare are the people who know the best,
especially if, for example,if you are in my previous job
(14:30):
where I was working in supporting adultswith learning difficulties
and I worked with one gentlemanthat I understood so much
because I worked with himfor almost the whole year and I ended up
knowing what exactly they want theirtimings, their timetable and everything.
And there was times like when managementwould come and change things
(14:55):
where this gentleman would be forcedto do things
that he is not familiar withbecause management would be thinking that
it's it's a new way of doing things,but they never sort of like consult
with care workersor with people are supporting the person.
So that's the first important thingthat I think we need to do.
(15:15):
If innovation is to happen,sometimes it has to come from bottom up.
So if there's supposed to bea more collaboration,
more sort of like a talk betweenthose who are in managerial positions
and those who are working on the groundso the work that the care
workers are doingneeds to be put into into perspective
(15:39):
when when we are comingup with new innovations.
Yeah, thanks Obert
when I think about about IMPACT,so much of what we've tried to do in
our first year is to is to listen actuallyand to listen to different voices
and to listen to seldom heard voicesor including people that might have care
(16:00):
and support needs,but but not see themselves
as part of the formal careand support system.
And there is something that all of youhave mentioned about valuing
those voices, isn't there?
I suspect that you get listened to more
when you're a PhD student than you didwhen you were a care worker.
And I suspect you get listened to
even more so now that youthe IMPACT project officer,
(16:22):
and yet you were still the same personthroughout all those different guises.
And indeed,you're probably further away from the
the topic that we're talking about now
that you're an IMPACT project officerthan you were when you were a care worker.
So it's almost kind of inverselyproportionate to contact
with the issue at stake,I think, was something really important.
Terry,what would you say about some of that,
(16:42):
that the sort ofbarriers to positive change?
You know,
Jon I think i don;t know if itsto do with institutionalisation.
I know we don't confine people,thankfully to long stay asylums
and people with mental health problemsand also learning disabilities.
Now, those days we've moved onfrom those days, thankfully.
(17:03):
But you know what?
I think there's still a lot ofinstitutionalisation of care
within the community, and I think it'sabout what to Karen mentioned about
the need to change culture and challengeexisting culture and the status quo.
And I go as far as to say to you, John,what I think we need
is a peaceful revolutionin terms of health and social care
(17:23):
and at the end of the dayPeople need people.
And it is about what we said aboutthe need to value people, not just value
those who are interacting with itin terms of kind of support look after,
but also those on the front linein both the NHS and also in the
in the social services,local authorities as well.
And you know, I don't think can docommunity care very effectively
(17:45):
with such such shortages of peopleon the front line as well.
And not to pay people properly, not tovalue them in terms of of what you pay.
Caring is a very can bea very complex process can't it really it
it takes a lot of skillto care for people,
especially people, for example,with dementia.
And yet we don't seem to value
those people who are doing suchan essential job in our society, isn't it?
(18:09):
So I think we need to really relookat that in terms of
but also Jon would like to seeis it services that don't just react
to people in crisis,but actually more proactive?
They actually work really hardto keep people well as well as possible.
That is a given whatever condition,whatever disability
they're facing in life,but not, you know, in mental health.
(18:30):
Why do we always firefight all the time?
Why can't we have a system which actually
helps to keep people well
and recognises that people can't staywell given the right support and input?
Actually,
because I believe Jon you know, spent20 years talking about self-management.
I believe all long term health conditions,mental,
(18:51):
physical can be potentially managedmore effectively.
So again,it's it's not just doing things to people.
It's actually supporting peopleand helping people
to do things themselves, you know,and encouraging people to do so as well.
It's about connection as wellI think that's so important.
And also sorry Karen mentioned about risk.
I think certainly in mental health,you know, there's
(19:12):
so much aversion to risk, you know, but
I think that you can't wrappeople up in cotton wool all the time.
As much as you think
they should be wrapped up in cotton wool,it's actually allowing people
to start to make those decisionsfor themselves, to take back control
of their lives, you know,
and just be preparedto be with people on that journey as well.
(19:33):
Unfortunately in life, Jonwe can't fix everything overnight.
I wish we could, you know,but sometimes it takes
sometimes it takes years, decades,actually, to to walk with people
and actually ensure that they can enjoytheir life as much as possible in spite of
facing whatever long term health conditionor disability that they live with.
Actually, it's just being with peoplefor the long haul as well.
(19:54):
And not just in reactingwhen people are in crisis
and then leaving them to itwhen they're not in crisis.
It doesn't make sense to methat Jon I don't know.
I know that's about funding to a degree,but surely if you're prepared to work hard
with people to keep them well over longerperiods and not make sense, you know,
and try and avoidthose future episodes of crisis.
Yeah.
(20:14):
That's really interesting, Terry,and really important.
And we did a survey in IMPACT's first year
which Obert led on across the sector
to try and informwhat IMPACT would be doing,
how it would design its ways of working
and the kind of topicsthat it would work on.
And we had about 2165 people fill it in,
(20:35):
I think across all four nations of the UKand from all parts of the system.
About 20% of people either drew on caringsupport or were carers themselves.
About 25% were frontline practitionersand so on.
And the two most prominent topicsthat came back out of people's
priorities were aroundprevention and wellbeing.
(20:58):
Exactly what you were saying, Terry,and about kind of asset based
and person centred approachesas being the two main priorities.
Above all, these are things
that IMPACT might focus onand that came from all four nations
in spite of very different policyand practise contexts.
And it came from everybodyin every part of the system,
from somebody drawing on care and supportto a director of social services,
(21:20):
from a carer to a service provideror a care home manager.
We will be sayingthese are two of the top priorities
and the consistency of those responsesI think really surprised us.
One of the
things I'm really interested infor all three of you actually is
is why you chose to get involved in IMPACTand what you're hoping
(21:40):
it might be able to achieve.
I've also got a personal interestin that in that issue.
But you're all really expert people.
You're all really busy.
You've chosen to contribute in differentkinds of ways to to IMPACT's journey.
What what encouraged you
to get involved in IMPACTand maybe Karen, I'll come to you first.
Thanks, John.
(22:02):
For me, it's really about the timefor change and being part of that change.
And if that's, you know, contirbutingin whatever way you can.
And I think it'sa really powerful piece of work
that if we can evidence the social care,I think we can help
to change the narrativeof what good looks like .
And I think it'll open people's mindsto the possibilities of
(22:23):
what is possible in terms of reimagining.
You know,we all know what we know currently.
And when we try new things and we see newapproaches, then it inspires new ideas.
And I think really what Ihope IMPACT will do
is a show uswhat the elusive social care is,
because social care means so many thingsto so many different people.
(22:46):
So good social care will meandifferent things to different people.
And I suppose, you know,we often talk about an ordinary life.
And as I said, we have been on the personalisation journey with our daughter. And
there'snothing ordinary about the transformation.
It's extraordinary.
It has been so beneficialto her as an individual
(23:09):
and us as a family,but also our community.
And we have only been doing itfor about three months. So.
And if we as one familycan have that impact,
then I think projects that do iton a wider scale and that can prove it
on a wider scale will have sucha, you know, a powerful knock on effect.
(23:30):
Thanks, Karen.
That's really powerful.
Obert, what encouraged youto get invloved in IMPACT- your were
finishing a Ph.D.You knowthat the world is your oyster.
You chose to devote the next stageof your career to to IMPACT.
And we're really grateful for it.
But but what are you hopingto achieve through IMPACT?
Thank you, Joe.
And I can say what really attracted meto apply
(23:54):
for the position that I applied forit in part was because I'm.
Obviously it was coming from
what I wanted to achievewhen I started doing my Ph.D.
because I never wanted to do a Ph.D..
The idea wasI wanted to become a social worker.
And I felt likewhen you become a social worker, probably
you are more of a regulated workuntil you maybe will get the respect
(24:17):
that you want.Because I wanted to make that change.
And what really attracted me to to IMPACTwas the idea that
it's about implementing evidence andwhat evidence, the evidence that is there.
And it's not only the research evidence,because normally
when we talk about evidenceand research evidence
(24:37):
in social care,we are talking about something
that is mainly the domain of aof academics
or something that until recentlyhas always been based at universities.
Of course, IMPACT is based atuniversities, but the way iIMPACT defined
evidence ideas around
(24:57):
tryingto bring in different types of evidence,
mainly the lived experiences of peoplewho would draw and care and support
and the experiences of their careerand as also the way
the practise knowledge of,of, of the social care stuff.
That's what
really struck me that this these aresome of the really important things.
(25:20):
These are the peoplethat have just been sort of like left
out of a lot of research.
And they aretheir voices have not been heard So
trying to to to have those voices,it really,
I think, iswhere the change will come from.
And the bottom up approachthat we are taking in IMPACT
is what really made me more interestedin working with IMPACT.
(25:42):
And I'm really so proudthat I'm starting to work
with people where we havegot these lived experiences.
It's like bringing me back
to the time when I was a care worker,listening to their voices,
having them in roundtableswith different stakeholders.
That's where change comes from.
When we bring everyonewithin the diversity of out of the centre
(26:05):
together and try to make a change, and I'mhappy that I'm part of that change.
I'm happythat you're a part of that Obert as well.
Thank you.
And Terry, what encouraged youto get involved with IMPACT?
I am just echoing what Obert
and Karen have said really,you know, is about giving the opportunity
for people's voices to be heard and often,you know, not
(26:28):
being able to challenge the status quo.
It isn't it.
And to to be able to evidence why we wantto challenge the status quo as well
and not just be content with services,do things to people,
but allowing people to have that voiceand to actually
bring about meaningful changeand to sharing ideas.
One of the mottos of the South
Wales Miners Federationat one time was knowledge is power.
(26:51):
And I think that's so true,isn't it? Really?
And it wasn't me,but it was someone called Nelson Mandela.
Nelson Mandela who said educationis the most powerful weapon
that we have, you know.
And he was so right, wasn't he, really?
So it's all about trying to educatepeople, both people who use the services
and also those who are in positionsof power in the services to actually have
(27:11):
that dialogue and in a constructive wayand actually hopefully
your work and truly in partnershiptogether to bring about that change.
And as I said earlier, you know, I reallybelieve that we need to have a peaceful
and some peaceful revolutionin our health and social care system.
It's high time, actually.
There's no pointjust throwing more and more money
at existing structureswhich are creaking at the seams really.
(27:34):
And we've always done it this way,so we'll carry on doing it this way.
I think, you know, we've really got tobe mindful about when money is going, too,
and also accountability as well in termsof how that money is being best used.
Could it be used better?
But also what Karen said about grassrootsactually consulting with the grassroots
and not just assumingthat this is what people need,
but actually listening very carefullyto what people need
(27:58):
and actually acting on that as well,isn't it really?
So I mean, it's so important.
You know, I think we can do so much more.
We we could talk about a far happier,healthier nation if we switch to
from crisis managementto actually a more preventative approach
and both the healthand social care system.
Isn't it really so?
(28:18):
Because I do believe, you know,that people let's not just wait.
People are really unwell and in crisisbefore we intervene, let's anticipate
a bit more and let's aligned servicesmore to preventative really
isn't it on the on helpingpeople stay well over a longer period.
And that's what we want to see.
That'swhy I'm involved with this IMPACT project.
So it's going to work in partnershipwith other people towards a common goal
(28:41):
really,isn't it? Of change and improvement.
Yeah. Thanks so much for that.
And we've had conversations like thisthroughout the country where
we've been blown awayreally by the amounts of support
and kind of momentumthat there's been behind impact.
I guess as its director,just reflecting on some of
what I've heard today and in a moment,I'll come back
(29:02):
round to everyone just to see if there'sanything final that you wanted to say.
But with the surveyand with our assemblies
and with all the engagement work
that we've done, people have said thatwhat they want to see
is a practical supporton the ground to make a difference.
They want to see somesome funding to enable
the participation of peoplewho draw on care and support
(29:24):
carers and frontline workerswho might otherwise find it difficult
to take part in these discussionsand whose voices are seldom heard.
And they want some support for peopleto come together from different
backgrounds,different parts of the system,
to work on common challenges,but hopefully on common solutions.
A real sense of a lack of a shared spacethat we we talked
(29:45):
about earlier, too,to even have these kinds of conversations.
Actually, they were really clearthat they their definition of evidence
was very much as Obert described,it was different kinds of research,
but it was about valuing lived experienceand about valuing practice knowledge
and seeing
research.
Lived experience and practiceknowledge is different,
(30:05):
but complementary ways of knowingthat the world that you kind of need
to bring together and triangulateand and work with as you try and explore
scope for innovationand for positive change.
People wanted to see co-productionat every level of IMPACT built into
everything that it does and all levelsand all parts of the organisation.
(30:28):
And finally, people were really excitedabout the fact that this was something
that was an implementation centre,not a research centre.
It was about working alongside peoplein the realities of frontline services
to make a difference to those servicesand hence to people's lives.
And one of the peoplewith care and support needs, who was
one of our assemblies, describedit as not just talking about it, Jon,
(30:50):
but rolling up your sleeves
and getting stuck in which I thoughtwas a really good description
and could have been a mission statementfor for IMPACT maybe.
So for people who want to stay in touchwith IMPACT
in 2022, we're getting ourselvesset up as a national centre.
You'll see a number of rolesadvertised as part of that, for example,
(31:11):
and the be greater kind of web and socialmedia presence as the year progresses.
But we'll also be pilotingfour delivery models in different
on different topicsin different parts of the UK
so that the year is a really kind ofactive delivery orientated year as well.
And again, if you sign upfor regular updates, for example,
(31:33):
you'll see more about howthat's progressing as the year goes on.
And then if we have a successful year,our funders will then
authorise us to move into a five yeardelivery period
when we're rolling outthose delivery models on a much wider
range of topicsand across the whole of the UK.
So that's the kind of journeythat where we're on together.
(31:55):
I've been really grateful for your timeand your observations
and your thoughts today,and thank you to everyone for listening.
I'm just going to go backround to see if there's anything
final that you wanted to sayat the end of the podcast.
So, Karen, I'll come to you first.
Hi, John.
Yeah, I think the vision for social careis well documented.
I think we do need to start movingand delivering on it.
(32:18):
And, you know, whether with or without thefunding, we have to find ways to prove.
And I think IMPACT is a really good wayto evidence things that can be done
even on the small scale that, you know,I think we just have to start.
There's never going to be a perfect time,
but I think it's really great workand very excited to follow the journey.
(32:38):
Thanks, Karen, and Obert Oh, but
thank you, Jon.
My last really is to say careand caring is about relationships,
and we need to harness these relationships
across the whole social care spectrumand to create partnerships
around stakeholders so that we can haveclear and meaningful evidence
(33:02):
that can be responsive to the to the care
needs of thosewe want to make a difference to.
And also that time,the evidence that we get out
there is grounded in our real worldcontext and is developed in a manner
that optimisesits integration into practice.
Thank you.
Thanks, Obert and Terry,you've already quoted Nelson Mandela
(33:23):
and the South Wales Miners Federation,so I'm not sure where else there is to go,
but is there anything finalthat you want to say?
Well,I would just say, Jon, that people matter
and it really mattershow we care for people, doesn't it really.
So knowand as you know, we could do better, Jon.
is what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying. Finish on.
We could do better.
And there's no reason why we couldn'tdo better as well.
(33:45):
I think that's a good summary, Terry.
You said earlier that
we need a peaceful revolution.
You said people need people.
And equally, we could do betterand let's do better together.
I think that's a really goodsummary of IMPACT's
mission and the nature of the journeythat we're on.
Let me end thereand just say thank you to to all of you,
to Karen, to Terry,to Obert for the conversation today.
(34:08):
But for all the challenge and supportand networks and opportunities
that you've given me as IMPACT directorand for kind of all the goodwill
and the rooting from the sidelines,
you know, on our behalf ,we really, really appreciate it.
We've received this money from the
the Health Foundationand the Economic and Social Research
(34:31):
Council, and it's long term funding forfor the next six and a half, seven years.
And we're acutely awarethat this is a kind of once
in a generation opportunityto to make a difference
locally, regionally,nationally and across the whole of the UK.
And we're determined
to grasp that opportunityand do the best we possibly can with it.
So thank you very much for taking parttoday and thanks everyone for listening.
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and Circle,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series,
our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care.
(00:44):
As we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Hello, everyone.
My name's Jon Glasby.
In my day job, I'm Professor of healthand social care at the University
(01:05):
of Birminghamand a former social worker by background.
But I'm also the director of IMPACTwhich stands for IMProving
Adult Care Together it's the new UK centre
for implementing evidencein adult social care that's come very much
out of some of the relationshipswe built with the sustainable care
projects led by SueYeandle and colleagues at Sheffield.
(01:29):
And I'm joined today by a number of peoplewho are really experienced
in different partsof the social care system across the UK,
but have also been really involvedin helping to shape IMPACT's
early thinking and its development .
Karen Terry And Obert.
So I'll ask you each
to introduce yourselvesand Karen, I'll come to you first.
(01:49):
Thanks, Jon.
I suppose my involvement is
and the co-production panelfrom the Northern Ireland perspective
and from a lived experienceas a carer of 20 years.
And I also have a particular interestin personalisation of care
and how technology can improve or
enable personalisation in care as well.
(02:10):
Thanks, Karen.And then I'll come to Terry.
Hello, my name is Terry Davis and I workfor West Wales Action for Mental Health
and I'm, if you can call me a personwith lived experience.
And I'm also studying part time for a PhDlooking at the transition
from asylum based care to communitycare across Great Britain.
(02:30):
Thanks, Terry and
Obert Hello my name is Obert TawodzeraI'm currently working
as IMPACT's Project Officer,working with Jon Glasby.
I recently completed my PhDat the University of Sheffield,
which was also partof our sustainable care programme.
And my background is I'm also a former
(02:52):
care worker myself,so I really enjoy working with people
and I'm more into tryingto make a difference in adult social care.
Thank you Thanks, everyone.
It's great to have you here today.
I suppose I wanted to start offjust based on your different experiences
in different partsof the UK, in different parts of the
the social care system, if you like, what
(03:14):
we all see as some of the big challenges
but also opportunitiesfacing adult social care at the moment.
Terry, maybe I'll come to you
for a view from you, if that's okay.
Thanks, Jon, Well,I've been working really hard away
from what we call Wamh (03:29):
West Wales Action on Mental Health for the last few years,
closely with our partnersin our university health board
and also with colleaguesin the local authorities.
You know,I think there are lots of amongst
all difficultiesand a lot of opportunities.
And I guess, you know, John,it's about having a vision about,
you know, how we can go forwardand also how we can better work together
(03:52):
in true partnership workingthere's a lot of Talk these days
about partnership working,but so often is just on paper, as it were.
And it's a real challenge, isn't it,to truly work in partnership with people
coming from oftenvery different differing perspectives.
So I guess what we want to see more of is,is true partnership working also,
(04:13):
you know, with the whole thingof co-production actually getting people
with lived experience truly involved inplanning and delivering services as well.
And that's what we tryand do through WAMH actually,
whether it be involvingso-called service users with interviews
or on on various committees and panelsso that their voice can be heard.
I think, you know, historicallywhen it comes to mental health,
(04:35):
people,people's voices haven't been heard.
So it's trying to get those voicesheard really, and not have services
that just do things to people,but actually start to work with people
and actually help people to worktruly in partnership with people, I guess.
John, that's so important.
Yeah. Thanks, Terry.And you kind of mentioned vision.
Does that does that imply that you thinkthat vision is looking at the moment
(04:58):
that we haven't gotthat kind of guiding set of principles to
take us from where we arenow to where we want to go?
Trouble is because of everything'sbeen going on,
especially the last couple of years.
It comes to a degree of being lost.
So I guess is trying to
repurpose the vision and trying to set outonce again really, isn't it,
putting people at the heart of servicesand importantly, as I said,
(05:19):
not just doing things to people, butallowing people to do things themselves.
You know, I think in mental health,traditionally it's been
it's been really hardfor statutory services to actually
give people the permissionto actually do things and to appreciate
that people can do an awful lotif given those opportunities, actually.
So but, you know,
there's a lot of talk, John, these daysabout recovery and mental health services.
(05:40):
But recovery can be risky
when you hand back control,if you like, to people themselves.
So I think services need to be realigned
in that sense and actually workwith people and not just do things
to people actuallyfor people to really realise recovery.
Yeah.
Thanks, Terry.
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And Karen, I suspect that might chimewith your experience as well as a family.
(06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the whole system approachneeds to be re-imagined.
I agree with Terry in termsof the partnership working and partnership
working is difficult, but that doesn'tmean it's not worth doing.
But also the fundingI think the funding has to follow through.
There's been a lot of talkabout the transformation and the vision,
(06:25):
as Terry says, but action really needs.
You know, we need to seeand it really needs to be flipped
on its heads so if we're looking at personcentred solutions,
then we need to go from the grassroots uprather than a top down approach.
And that's valuing the work of those onthe ground, whether it's lived experience,
whether it's the communityand voluntary sector or social enterprises
(06:49):
and value in the workforce.
And I think it's really importantthat that's all part of the solution.
Having recently introduced a personalisedcare arrangement in our family,
it is transformative.
It has transformed our lives.
And I think if we can showwhat's possible, even if it is one family
at a time or one project at a time,then that helps change the narrative.
(07:13):
That has been quite negative,I think, around social care.
Yeah, thanks. Willcome onto this a bit later.
But IMPACT's vision or mission statementis, is that good
care isn't about services,it's about having a life.
And I wonder whether that speaksto Terry's thoughts on vision and
and your sort of thoughts,Karen, on sort of positivity
and that sort of transformative experienceas well.
(07:34):
And Obert I'll come to you.
What what what would you sayabout some of the challenges,
but also the opportunitiesfacing adult social care?
Thank you, JonI agree a lot with Terry and and Karen.
When it comes to the ideas aroundworking together, the ideas around
collaboration is one big opportunitythat we can have in social care.
(07:56):
But the biggest and all of the keycontextual challenges
that are there in adult social care inthe meantime
are mainly to do with funding,as Karen has said and it's the first thing
that needs to be addressedfor everyone to be able to come together.
We need to get that fundingto flow across the social care spectrum.
(08:17):
And the other thing that is a keychallenge is that we've got a very big
and very diverse sectorwith many competing interests.
And in all its diversity,the social care sector,
There is no kind of coming togetherwith different stakeholders.
So there are many peoplewith competing interests.
(08:37):
And one of the things that could happenthat could make it more better
is that that diversity of the social carecould be it's its biggest opportunity.
It's a challenge, yes.
But that will be its biggestopportunities.
Opportunity,if people could be able to come together,
because at the heart of itis the need for meaningful collaboration
between all of those who are involvedin adult social care
(09:01):
and be it researchers at the academics,be it commissioners practitioners.
But also the most important thing
is to make surethat whatever happens in social care,
we don't forget the lived experiencesof those who use the services
and also their carers and the workthat is done by the workforce.
(09:24):
You know, the adult social careworkforce is another
big challenge that we havebecause it continues to be undervalued.
The work that is done in social careand that undervaluing of the which means
that we have big challenges to try andmake sure that social care is respected
and is put at par with the workthat is done in the NHS, for example.
(09:45):
Yeah, thanks.
I really agree with that.
And we started to get into this already,but I was going to ask next,
what are some of the things that that stoppositive change on the ground
in frontline services?
We've mentioned kind of funding.
We've mentioned some of the disruptionsthat we've we've all faced
during the COVID.And I guess we've mentioned a lack of
almostsocietal value that we give to the care
(10:08):
and caring relationshipsas some of the things that hold us back.
But from your different experiencesand again
from your different locations,all that other kind of key things that
that stop positive changefrom happening on the on the ground.
Karen, I'll come to you first.
Yeah, I think then the ability to embraceinnovation.
(10:28):
Innovation
often comes from peoplethat are really stuck on a problem.
So it could be a lived experienceor a community organisation
that have brilliant ideasand are often given a better service
than the service providersthat are, you know, contracted to do so.
So it's about getting them establishedor getting them off the ground
(10:51):
and getting them embedded into the widerservices,
you know,if they're proven to be successful.
And so scaling thoseand using really good examples.
Across from from across the world, really,not just across the UK, but,
you know, seeing what works bestand trying it and not being afraid.
(11:12):
I think there's sometimes a lack of,
you know, positive attitude aroundtaking a risk, you know, a positive risk.
And it could be a low cost risk.
But from a commissioner's point of view,it's really
trying new things and new ways
and and to check and do the work
and looking at the procurement aroundthat, you know, is a that's a barrier.
(11:36):
But I think attitudescan be a barrier as well.
And has that been your own experienceKaren?
I know you've kind of innovated as a asas a person and as a family, haven't you?
And then you've tried toto take that innovation and share it with
with others so that they benefit, too,from that transformation.
It sounds like you'respeaking very much from
personal experienceof battling with some of that inertia.
(11:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And and the system, I suppose, for social
innovation is quite fragmented.
So whether you're a social enterpriseor you're a for profit or you're
a not for profit,you still seem to fall between the stools.
And so, you know, getting funding,getting traction,
there is enormous goodwillfor lived experience, innovation.
(12:20):
But again, getting it off the groundso that it can
even just be proven as challenging.
But it's exciting as wellbecause we're living it.
I can see the problemreally, really in detail.
I live the problem every day, but alsoI can see what the solution needs to be
and talking with within the networkof people that believe that as well.
(12:44):
So while it is challengingit's it's a really exciting time as well.
And ObertI know when you were a care worker,
how did you try and do some of that?
presumably its quite difficultto make positive change sometimes
in the reality of frontline services.
And I know you went away to to studyand to do your research and do your PhD
(13:04):
to find ways of helpingto make a difference
and to make you a better workerand practitioner as well as a researcher.
But but what was your experienceas a as a former care worker
that that the things that held you back
when you were tryingto make positive changes.
Thank you, John.
Yes, the waya lot within the social care workforce
(13:25):
and mainly with peopleworking in social care.
These are the people who understandwhat's happening on the ground
and they are the people who are therewho are looking
after the vulnerable adults, for example.
But the problem that you face
normally when you are a care workeris that you are never listened to.
(13:47):
There's sort of like a top downkind of approach to doing things.
And these are sort of a culturethat is more managerial
and very bureaucratic, where you haveto follow certain procedures,
even though those procedures, youyourself will be thinking
that they might not be workingfor the person,
maybe that you are looking afteror the person that you're supporting.
(14:10):
So that's one big issuethat is there in social care
that sort of like hinders innovation,especially that innovation
that is supposed to comefrom our bottom up
because people who are working in socialcare are the people who know the best,
especially if, for example,if you are in my previous job
(14:30):
where I was working in supporting adultswith learning difficulties
and I worked with one gentlemanthat I understood so much
because I worked with himfor almost the whole year and I ended up
knowing what exactly they want theirtimings, their timetable and everything.
And there was times like when managementwould come and change things
(14:55):
where this gentleman would be forcedto do things
that he is not familiar withbecause management would be thinking that
it's it's a new way of doing things,but they never sort of like consult
with care workersor with people are supporting the person.
So that's the first important thingthat I think we need to do.
(15:15):
If innovation is to happen,sometimes it has to come from bottom up.
So if there's supposed to bea more collaboration,
more sort of like a talk betweenthose who are in managerial positions
and those who are working on the groundso the work that the care
workers are doingneeds to be put into into perspective
(15:39):
when when we are comingup with new innovations.
Yeah, thanks Obert
when I think about about IMPACT,so much of what we've tried to do in
our first year is to is to listen actuallyand to listen to different voices
and to listen to seldom heard voicesor including people that might have care
(16:00):
and support needs,but but not see themselves
as part of the formal careand support system.
And there is something that all of youhave mentioned about valuing
those voices, isn't there?
I suspect that you get listened to more
when you're a PhD student than you didwhen you were a care worker.
And I suspect you get listened to
even more so now that youthe IMPACT project officer,
(16:22):
and yet you were still the same personthroughout all those different guises.
And indeed,you're probably further away from the
the topic that we're talking about now
that you're an IMPACT project officerthan you were when you were a care worker.
So it's almost kind of inverselyproportionate to contact
with the issue at stake,I think, was something really important.
Terry,what would you say about some of that,
(16:42):
that the sort ofbarriers to positive change?
You know,
Jon I think i don;t know if itsto do with institutionalisation.
I know we don't confine people,thankfully to long stay asylums
and people with mental health problemsand also learning disabilities.
Now, those days we've moved onfrom those days, thankfully.
(17:03):
But you know what?
I think there's still a lot ofinstitutionalisation of care
within the community, and I think it'sabout what to Karen mentioned about
the need to change culture and challengeexisting culture and the status quo.
And I go as far as to say to you, John,what I think we need
is a peaceful revolutionin terms of health and social care
(17:23):
and at the end of the dayPeople need people.
And it is about what we said aboutthe need to value people, not just value
those who are interacting with itin terms of kind of support look after,
but also those on the front linein both the NHS and also in the
in the social services,local authorities as well.
And you know, I don't think can docommunity care very effectively
(17:45):
with such such shortages of peopleon the front line as well.
And not to pay people properly, not tovalue them in terms of of what you pay.
Caring is a very can bea very complex process can't it really it
it takes a lot of skillto care for people,
especially people, for example,with dementia.
And yet we don't seem to value
those people who are doing suchan essential job in our society, isn't it?
(18:09):
So I think we need to really relookat that in terms of
but also Jon would like to seeis it services that don't just react
to people in crisis,but actually more proactive?
They actually work really hardto keep people well as well as possible.
That is a given whatever condition,whatever disability
they're facing in life,but not, you know, in mental health.
(18:30):
Why do we always firefight all the time?
Why can't we have a system which actually
helps to keep people well
and recognises that people can't staywell given the right support and input?
Actually,
because I believe Jon you know, spent20 years talking about self-management.
I believe all long term health conditions,mental,
(18:51):
physical can be potentially managedmore effectively.
So again,it's it's not just doing things to people.
It's actually supporting peopleand helping people
to do things themselves, you know,and encouraging people to do so as well.
It's about connection as wellI think that's so important.
And also sorry Karen mentioned about risk.
I think certainly in mental health,you know, there's
(19:12):
so much aversion to risk, you know, but
I think that you can't wrappeople up in cotton wool all the time.
As much as you think
they should be wrapped up in cotton wool,it's actually allowing people
to start to make those decisionsfor themselves, to take back control
of their lives, you know,
and just be preparedto be with people on that journey as well.
(19:33):
Unfortunately in life, Jonwe can't fix everything overnight.
I wish we could, you know,but sometimes it takes
sometimes it takes years, decades,actually, to to walk with people
and actually ensure that they can enjoytheir life as much as possible in spite of
facing whatever long term health conditionor disability that they live with.
Actually, it's just being with peoplefor the long haul as well.
(19:54):
And not just in reactingwhen people are in crisis
and then leaving them to itwhen they're not in crisis.
It doesn't make sense to methat Jon I don't know.
I know that's about funding to a degree,but surely if you're prepared to work hard
with people to keep them well over longerperiods and not make sense, you know,
and try and avoidthose future episodes of crisis.
Yeah.
(20:14):
That's really interesting, Terry,and really important.
And we did a survey in IMPACT's first year
which Obert led on across the sector
to try and informwhat IMPACT would be doing,
how it would design its ways of working
and the kind of topicsthat it would work on.
And we had about 2165 people fill it in,
(20:35):
I think across all four nations of the UKand from all parts of the system.
About 20% of people either drew on caringsupport or were carers themselves.
About 25% were frontline practitionersand so on.
And the two most prominent topicsthat came back out of people's
priorities were aroundprevention and wellbeing.
(20:58):
Exactly what you were saying, Terry,and about kind of asset based
and person centred approachesas being the two main priorities.
Above all, these are things
that IMPACT might focus onand that came from all four nations
in spite of very different policyand practise contexts.
And it came from everybodyin every part of the system,
from somebody drawing on care and supportto a director of social services,
(21:20):
from a carer to a service provideror a care home manager.
We will be sayingthese are two of the top priorities
and the consistency of those responsesI think really surprised us.
One of the
things I'm really interested infor all three of you actually is
is why you chose to get involved in IMPACTand what you're hoping
(21:40):
it might be able to achieve.
I've also got a personal interestin that in that issue.
But you're all really expert people.
You're all really busy.
You've chosen to contribute in differentkinds of ways to to IMPACT's journey.
What what encouraged you
to get involved in IMPACTand maybe Karen, I'll come to you first.
Thanks, John.
(22:02):
For me, it's really about the timefor change and being part of that change.
And if that's, you know, contirbutingin whatever way you can.
And I think it'sa really powerful piece of work
that if we can evidence the social care,I think we can help
to change the narrativeof what good looks like .
And I think it'll open people's mindsto the possibilities of
(22:23):
what is possible in terms of reimagining.
You know,we all know what we know currently.
And when we try new things and we see newapproaches, then it inspires new ideas.
And I think really what Ihope IMPACT will do
is a show uswhat the elusive social care is,
because social care means so many thingsto so many different people.
(22:46):
So good social care will meandifferent things to different people.
And I suppose, you know,we often talk about an ordinary life.
And as I said, we have been on the personalisation journey with our daughter. And
there'snothing ordinary about the transformation.
It's extraordinary.
It has been so beneficialto her as an individual
(23:09):
and us as a family,but also our community.
And we have only been doing itfor about three months. So.
And if we as one familycan have that impact,
then I think projects that do iton a wider scale and that can prove it
on a wider scale will have sucha, you know, a powerful knock on effect.
(23:30):
Thanks, Karen.
That's really powerful.
Obert, what encouraged youto get invloved in IMPACT- your were
finishing a Ph.D.You knowthat the world is your oyster.
You chose to devote the next stageof your career to to IMPACT.
And we're really grateful for it.
But but what are you hopingto achieve through IMPACT?
Thank you, Joe.
And I can say what really attracted meto apply
(23:54):
for the position that I applied forit in part was because I'm.
Obviously it was coming from
what I wanted to achievewhen I started doing my Ph.D.
because I never wanted to do a Ph.D..
The idea wasI wanted to become a social worker.
And I felt likewhen you become a social worker, probably
you are more of a regulated workuntil you maybe will get the respect
(24:17):
that you want.Because I wanted to make that change.
And what really attracted me to to IMPACTwas the idea that
it's about implementing evidence andwhat evidence, the evidence that is there.
And it's not only the research evidence,because normally
when we talk about evidenceand research evidence
(24:37):
in social care,we are talking about something
that is mainly the domain of aof academics
or something that until recentlyhas always been based at universities.
Of course, IMPACT is based atuniversities, but the way iIMPACT defined
evidence ideas around
(24:57):
tryingto bring in different types of evidence,
mainly the lived experiences of peoplewho would draw and care and support
and the experiences of their careerand as also the way
the practise knowledge of,of, of the social care stuff.
That's what
really struck me that this these aresome of the really important things.
(25:20):
These are the peoplethat have just been sort of like left
out of a lot of research.
And they aretheir voices have not been heard So
trying to to to have those voices,it really,
I think, iswhere the change will come from.
And the bottom up approachthat we are taking in IMPACT
is what really made me more interestedin working with IMPACT.
(25:42):
And I'm really so proudthat I'm starting to work
with people where we havegot these lived experiences.
It's like bringing me back
to the time when I was a care worker,listening to their voices,
having them in roundtableswith different stakeholders.
That's where change comes from.
When we bring everyonewithin the diversity of out of the centre
(26:05):
together and try to make a change, and I'mhappy that I'm part of that change.
I'm happythat you're a part of that Obert as well.
Thank you.
And Terry, what encouraged youto get involved with IMPACT?
I am just echoing what Obert
and Karen have said really,you know, is about giving the opportunity
for people's voices to be heard and often,you know, not
(26:28):
being able to challenge the status quo.
It isn't it.
And to to be able to evidence why we wantto challenge the status quo as well
and not just be content with services,do things to people,
but allowing people to have that voiceand to actually
bring about meaningful changeand to sharing ideas.
One of the mottos of the South
Wales Miners Federationat one time was knowledge is power.
(26:51):
And I think that's so true,isn't it? Really?
And it wasn't me,but it was someone called Nelson Mandela.
Nelson Mandela who said educationis the most powerful weapon
that we have, you know.
And he was so right, wasn't he, really?
So it's all about trying to educatepeople, both people who use the services
and also those who are in positionsof power in the services to actually have
(27:11):
that dialogue and in a constructive wayand actually hopefully
your work and truly in partnershiptogether to bring about that change.
And as I said earlier, you know, I reallybelieve that we need to have a peaceful
and some peaceful revolutionin our health and social care system.
It's high time, actually.
There's no pointjust throwing more and more money
at existing structureswhich are creaking at the seams really.
(27:34):
And we've always done it this way,so we'll carry on doing it this way.
I think, you know, we've really got tobe mindful about when money is going, too,
and also accountability as well in termsof how that money is being best used.
Could it be used better?
But also what Karen said about grassrootsactually consulting with the grassroots
and not just assumingthat this is what people need,
but actually listening very carefullyto what people need
(27:58):
and actually acting on that as well,isn't it really?
So I mean, it's so important.
You know, I think we can do so much more.
We we could talk about a far happier,healthier nation if we switch to
from crisis managementto actually a more preventative approach
and both the healthand social care system.
Isn't it really so?
(28:18):
Because I do believe, you know,that people let's not just wait.
People are really unwell and in crisisbefore we intervene, let's anticipate
a bit more and let's aligned servicesmore to preventative really
isn't it on the on helpingpeople stay well over a longer period.
And that's what we want to see.
That'swhy I'm involved with this IMPACT project.
So it's going to work in partnershipwith other people towards a common goal
(28:41):
really,isn't it? Of change and improvement.
Yeah. Thanks so much for that.
And we've had conversations like thisthroughout the country where
we've been blown awayreally by the amounts of support
and kind of momentumthat there's been behind impact.
I guess as its director,just reflecting on some of
what I've heard today and in a moment,I'll come back
(29:02):
round to everyone just to see if there'sanything final that you wanted to say.
But with the surveyand with our assemblies
and with all the engagement work
that we've done, people have said thatwhat they want to see
is a practical supporton the ground to make a difference.
They want to see somesome funding to enable
the participation of peoplewho draw on care and support
(29:24):
carers and frontline workerswho might otherwise find it difficult
to take part in these discussionsand whose voices are seldom heard.
And they want some support for peopleto come together from different
backgrounds,different parts of the system,
to work on common challenges,but hopefully on common solutions.
A real sense of a lack of a shared spacethat we we talked
(29:45):
about earlier, too,to even have these kinds of conversations.
Actually, they were really clearthat they their definition of evidence
was very much as Obert described,it was different kinds of research,
but it was about valuing lived experienceand about valuing practice knowledge
and seeing
research.
Lived experience and practiceknowledge is different,
(30:05):
but complementary ways of knowingthat the world that you kind of need
to bring together and triangulateand and work with as you try and explore
scope for innovationand for positive change.
People wanted to see co-productionat every level of IMPACT built into
everything that it does and all levelsand all parts of the organisation.
(30:28):
And finally, people were really excitedabout the fact that this was something
that was an implementation centre,not a research centre.
It was about working alongside peoplein the realities of frontline services
to make a difference to those servicesand hence to people's lives.
And one of the peoplewith care and support needs, who was
one of our assemblies, describedit as not just talking about it, Jon,
(30:50):
but rolling up your sleeves
and getting stuck in which I thoughtwas a really good description
and could have been a mission statementfor for IMPACT maybe.
So for people who want to stay in touchwith IMPACT
in 2022, we're getting ourselvesset up as a national centre.
You'll see a number of rolesadvertised as part of that, for example,
(31:11):
and the be greater kind of web and socialmedia presence as the year progresses.
But we'll also be pilotingfour delivery models in different
on different topicsin different parts of the UK
so that the year is a really kind ofactive delivery orientated year as well.
And again, if you sign upfor regular updates, for example,
(31:33):
you'll see more about howthat's progressing as the year goes on.
And then if we have a successful year,our funders will then
authorise us to move into a five yeardelivery period
when we're rolling outthose delivery models on a much wider
range of topicsand across the whole of the UK.
So that's the kind of journeythat where we're on together.
(31:55):
I've been really grateful for your timeand your observations
and your thoughts today,and thank you to everyone for listening.
I'm just going to go backround to see if there's anything
final that you wanted to sayat the end of the podcast.
So, Karen, I'll come to you first.
Hi, John.
Yeah, I think the vision for social careis well documented.
I think we do need to start movingand delivering on it.
(32:18):
And, you know, whether with or without thefunding, we have to find ways to prove.
And I think IMPACT is a really good wayto evidence things that can be done
even on the small scale that, you know,I think we just have to start.
There's never going to be a perfect time,
but I think it's really great workand very excited to follow the journey.
(32:38):
Thanks, Karen, and Obert Oh, but
thank you, Jon.
My last really is to say careand caring is about relationships,
and we need to harness these relationships
across the whole social care spectrumand to create partnerships
around stakeholders so that we can haveclear and meaningful evidence
(33:02):
that can be responsive to the to the care
needs of thosewe want to make a difference to.
And also that time,the evidence that we get out
there is grounded in our real worldcontext and is developed in a manner
that optimisesits integration into practice.
Thank you.
Thanks, Obert and Terry,you've already quoted Nelson Mandela
(33:23):
and the South Wales Miners Federation,so I'm not sure where else there is to go,
but is there anything finalthat you want to say?
Well,I would just say, Jon, that people matter
and it really mattershow we care for people, doesn't it really.
So knowand as you know, we could do better, Jon.
is what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying. Finish on.
We could do better.
And there's no reason why we couldn'tdo better as well.
(33:45):
I think that's a good summary, Terry.
You said earlier that
we need a peaceful revolution.
You said people need people.
And equally, we could do betterand let's do better together.
I think that's a really goodsummary of IMPACT's
mission and the nature of the journeythat we're on.
Let me end thereand just say thank you to to all of you,
to Karen, to Terry,to Obert for the conversation today.
(34:08):
But for all the challenge and supportand networks and opportunities
that you've given me as IMPACT directorand for kind of all the goodwill
and the rooting from the sidelines,
you know, on our behalf ,we really, really appreciate it.
We've received this money from the
the Health Foundationand the Economic and Social Research
(34:31):
Council, and it's long term funding forfor the next six and a half, seven years.
And we're acutely awarethat this is a kind of once
in a generation opportunityto to make a difference
locally, regionally,nationally and across the whole of the UK.
And we're determined
to grasp that opportunityand do the best we possibly can with it.
So thank you very much for taking parttoday and thanks everyone for listening.
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