May 4, 2022 • 36 mins
We are pleased to bring you a two-part episode, hosted by IMPACT Director, Jon Glasby, focussing on the work being done in IMPACT (IMProving Adult Care Together), the new UK centre for implementing evidence in adult social care. Funded, by the ESRC and the Health Foundation, with £15m over nearly 7 years, IMPACT seeks to help evidence of what works get used in practice to make a difference to services, and hence to people’s lives.
"We believe that good care isn’t about services, but about having a life – and that evidence can play a key part in achieving this vision."
The University of Sheffield is a partner in IMPACT. IMPACT draws on knowledge gained from different types of research, the lived experience of people using services and carers, and the practice knowledge of social care staff.
Part 2
Jon Glasby (Host)
Jon is a qualified social worker by background, and works as Professor of Health and Social Care at the University of Birmingham. He is Director of IMPACT. Click here to learn more at Jon's profile page at the University of Birmingham.
Clenton Farquharson MBE
Clenton is a disabled person with lived experience who draws upon health and social care. Clenton employs his own Personal Assistance, and he looks after his mum's personal budget which his mum uses for her own personal assistance.
He is Chair of the Think Local Act Personal (click here to learn more) programme board, and member of the Coalition for Personalised Care. He is also a member of the Social Care Sector COVID-19 Stakeholder Group which will ensure that concerted and determined action continues to be taken to reduce the risk of transmission of COVID-19 in the sector, both for those who rely on care and support and the social care workforce.
Clenton was named in Disability News Services’ list of influential disabled people and listed in the top 50 of HSJ’s most influential Black, Asian and minority ethnic people in health. He was also voted top social care leader in the recent Social Care Top 30 awards hosted by Care Talk magazine.
Karen Hedge
As National Director for Scottish Care (click here to learn more), Karen is working to shape the future of social care but is frustrated by the failure of traditional research to move beyond the ‘proof of concept’ stage. She believes IMPACT offers an exciting opportunity to reconsider our approach to evidence implementation by recognising the value and capability of the social care sector. Creating the conditions for real collaboration, critically including those who work in and access care and support, will allow us to move not only to research implementation but embedding. She brings over 20 years sector experience from frontline to Board level, and a passion for evidencing impact in outcomes for people.
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The CARE MATTERS Podcast is produced by Dan Williamson at the Centre for Care.
CIRCLE website: http://circle.group.shef.ac.uk/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and Circle,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series,
our researchers welcome expertsin the field and those giving or receiving
(00:29):
care to discuss crucial issuesin social care as we collectively attempt
to make a positive differenceto how care is experienced
and provided.
Hello everyoneand welcome to today's podcast.
(00:50):
My name is Jon Glasby,I'm director of IMPACT, the UK Centre
for implementing evidence in AdultSocial Care and this is the second
in two podcasts that we've recordedaround the role of impact
and around the importanceof implementation in adult social care.
In the first one,we heard from Karen, Terry and Obert,
(01:12):
speaking from the perspective of someonewho's drawn on care and support,
someone who's a carerand someone who's been a care worker
about some of the opportunities but alsothe challenges facing adult social care.
And in this podcast,we've got opportunities
for different membersof the IMPACT Leadership team
who bring different perspectivesand have different roles within the system
(01:34):
to reflect on what we've heardand on how impact might take it forward.
So I'll introduce youto the two colleagues who are joining me
today, Clenton, Could you just say helloand give us a brief
summary of your background?
Hi everyone.
My name's Clenton Farquharson and I
introduce myself as a triple threat
(01:56):
to adult social care
as a person who draws on careand support on I'm a black man
and a disabled person and I have multiple
long term conditions and I,
with others in
Birmingham, runa disabled user led organisation
(02:17):
and nationally I'm the chair of Think
Local Act Personal,which is a partnership of organisations
and peoplelooking at promoting personalisation.
Thanks, Clentonand then I'll come to Karen.
Hi, I'm Karen Hedge and I am Deputy ChiefExecutive at Scottish Care,
which is the membership bodyfor care providers in Scotland.
(02:41):
And on the leadership panel,I represent providers across the nations.
I have the luxury throughout my careerin care, having sat at different seats
in the table enteringsocial care as a paid care worker whilst
I was at university and at that timeI started to get frustrated
with the system and I supposeI've been fighting the systems ever since.
(03:03):
So how do we really get awayfrom those challenges that systems pose
and moveback to the delivery of care and support
that's thereto empower the people that we work with?
Thanks, Karen.
And I've got similar experiences.
When I trained as a as a social worker,I found it really difficult
placing people.
Was the language usedat the time in services that the deep down
(03:27):
I didn't feel were good enough for meor for my family.
And I always wondered what I could doto try and make that better.
And I think loads of people working acrossloads of parts of social care
have that dilemma,don't they, on it on a daily basis?
When we were listening to Karen and Terryand To Obert,
they raised a number of thingsthat they wanted IMPACT
(03:49):
to take into account and to respondto as it gets up and running
with some of its pilot projects in 2022
and then its much widerdelivery programme from 2023 onwards.
And one of the things that came up timeand time again was, was
that they perceived a real lack ofof shared vision in adult social care
(04:10):
, a sense that is was really fragmentedand quite hard for
people from different backgrounds
and different parts of the systemto come together
to to talk to each other, actually,and to better understand each other
and to work on common problems together.
I know that that's been sort of centrestage in our thinking and I can say
a bit later on maybe about how IMPACTis intending to respond to some of that.
(04:31):
But is that your experience too as welland the different roles
that you've occupiedthat that lack of shared vision?
And do you have a sense of whatwe could do to to move that forward?
Clenton, maybe I'll come to you first.
On the lack of shared vision.
I'm part of a movementcalled social care movement.
(04:51):
And with TLAP and other people
who draw on care and supportand professionals and providers.
And we coalesced around
this vision that talks aboutwe all want to live in the place
we call home with the peopleand things that we love in communities
(05:16):
where we look out for one another,doing the things that matter to us.
And that's the North Star
that we're trying to
have travel
in a direction of travellingand also using, Making It Real
(05:37):
and Making It RealWe at TLAP call a road map
that helps identify the sign posts
on that journey to the North Star.
And we use I statements of whatgood personalised care and support
looks like from the perspective of peoplewho draw
(05:59):
on care and supportthat includes carers and unpaid
carers.
But also there is another element to the
I statement, which is theWe statement that we expect organisations
and providers to work to.
(06:19):
And that's the We statements that help
realise what the I statements does.
So yes, totally agreethere needs to be a shared understanding
but also a shared purpose.
Just before I come to Karen,how do you actually do that in practise?
I mean, how do you do it as a person?
Because you're very values drivenand you're very clear
(06:42):
about what social care isand what it should be trying to achieve.
And you don't back downfrom from speaking your mind,
but you don't do it in an adversarial way.
You do it in a waythat kind of brings people together
from different perspectives.
And you you kind of listenas well as talk.
And I don't know, there'sjust something about, about,
I don't know if it's you as a person
or about how you approach the worldthat helps to kind of build relationships
(07:05):
rather than rather than kind of alienateor exclude people.
That just feels really important to meas well.
And I think that's I would
I owe that to my mum and dad,
my mum and dad
are part of the Windrush generation
that came to Birminghamand they put up and witness
(07:29):
a lot of inequalities,
prejudice, stereotypes for them.
But what they instilled in us as a family
was, you know, to forgive.
But don't forget and one of the things
that they've always said to me
was to remember a timewhen you didn't know what you know now.
(07:54):
So noteverybody has gone on that journey as you.
So my mum and dad
always said you need to be a bridge.
You know, I remember then
listening and hearing about Malcolm X and
Nelson Mandela and they all talkedabout the term bridging.
(08:19):
You have to bring people togetherto you know and talk about
the wider us
than and them and usand that then brought me on to
looking at how important language isyou know and if we look at adult
social careit's peppered with a them and us you know,
(08:40):
dehumanising language even,you know, about service user,
you know, and so a service useris a passive recipient,
not an active citizenwho you would want to take part
in designingwhat your future might look like.
And that's why
we when we talk about personalisation,we said a life, not a service.
(09:05):
So how do we create meaningful lives as
and an equal life of others?
Yeah.
Thanks, Clentonthat's really inspiring and
just really importantthat we live that out in our practise
and our relationships, isn't it? And.
Karen, what wouldwhat would you say about that?
Both that lack of shared vision,but also, you know, kind of the role that
(09:25):
either you or Scottish careor IMPACT can play in, you know , in
bringing people together to work onsome of that stuff with each other.
First of all, wow, what a privilege to sitbeside you here Clenton
and have that conversation.
You really are an inspiration.
Yeah, absolutely.
Fascinating insight.
So thank you so much for sharing that.
I wanted to also come backto, you know, the strapline about
(09:48):
this is not about service,it's about having a life.
Some of that chimes with the opportunitiesthat we have ahead of ourselves
in Scotland at the moment.
So we are on the precipice of the creationof a national care service
and one of the some of the workthat we did at Scottish Care,
which was a collaborative piece of workthat was co-produced
and co-designed about whatthat future of care should look like.
(10:11):
And that's really the crux here.
And I'll come back to quote, designin a minute.
But keeping in that focusof not about service, about having a life,
what we posited in the result of thatpiece of work is actually shouldn't
be a national care servicethat we're creating.
It should be a national care framework.
This is about creating a systemthat supports people
to have that life, not about that service,not about that passive.
(10:33):
It's not about that doing to.
So come back to the co- design bit now
and Clenton spoke about this as well.
This is about,you know, actors owning their own
potential but working togetherto achieve that and obtain that.
And that'swhere the shared vision comes from.
I had a really inspirational meetingyesterday about some work on
Care at Home Collaborativesthat's happening in Fife.
(10:56):
And what we came to reallyand this is not new.
We know this things work whenwe approach it in a space of equality.
We all roll up our sleeves and we get onand we get it done.
And that's what's really important here.
It's not about services.
It's about having a life.
Yeah, thanks.
both and as you've been talking,I've just been reflecting on
(11:16):
some of the design principlesbehind IMPACT as well
and the waywe're trying to take that forward.
You know, we have thatmission of good care isn't about services.
It's about having a life
which is really consistent with the visionthat both of you sets out.
Last week I was chairingone of our IMPACT assemblies
and we have five of those across the UK,but they're they're made up of a mix
(11:36):
of people who draw on care and supportcarers,
frontline practitionersof different kinds, service providers
of different kinds, leadersand commissioners of different kinds,
researchers and others.
And it it felt a little bit like that,what you're both saying really,
but in microcosm
as we were testing some of our thinkingand developing our ways of working.
(11:57):
And it was just like the bestpart of my week chairing that assembly,
if I'm honest, the kind of richnessof that, that dialogue.
And they weren't easy conversationsbecause lots of people didn't
agree with each other on on the best wayforward.
So quite difficult conversationsin one sense, but really important.
But I think they startedfrom a position of respect
(12:18):
for each otherand a kind of desire to make things better
and a desireto listen as well as to to speak.
And so it was,
you know,
I think those kinds of ways of working aregoing to be really important for impact.
And I think it's going
to have a real kind of convening role,if you like, in helping to facilitate
some of those discussions.
And I wonderwhether that's a bit different
to some of the evidence centreshave been in the past where, you know,
(12:42):
it's almost as if we've got an answerand we just need to give it to people
whilst here.
I'm notsure there's an answer necessarily,
but it's about coming together
to to work on itand to try and make progress together.
So like I was just making the links with
some of the kind of impact conversationsas you were, you were speaking.
Another thing that Karen and Obertand Terry mentioned was around them,
(13:04):
it's really hard to do some of this workin a in a society
that tends to undervalue care generally,
to undervalue peoplewho draw on care and support,
to undervalue care, and then to undervaluepeople who are involved in providing
care as well.
And they were hopefulthat impact could be part of a
of the processof increasing the visibility and drawing
(13:26):
attention to the importance of ofcare is something that helps us all
live the kind of livesthat we want to lead together.
Is that something, again,that you recognise
in your work, that undervaluing of careand the the job
to be done to try and change mindsetsand perceptions?
And maybe, Karen, I could start with you.
I wish I could say no, but sadly,
(13:48):
it's absolutelysomething we see time and time and again.
Most recently,we saw the winter pandemic response times
when we had a particularly challengingcrisis on our hands with staffing issues
and obviously pandemic responseat the same time.
And the politicianswanted to intervene to support the sector.
(14:11):
And what they did was to invest moneyin both the NHS and social care.
And that sounds really likean excellent plan and on the face of it.
But what they did actually waspay social care staff
less for doing the same jobas someone in the NHS .
So they aligned a social care jobto a band.
Less than the equivalent of that bandwould be in working in a hospital.
(14:36):
And in Scotland as well, social carestaff are professionally registered,
whereas those working in the hospitalwouldn't be so effectively
It was a double whammy.
So how do we get over that?
How do we change that perceptionand how do we get the public
to understand as well that frankly, socialcare is not just about tea,
whichsadly is what many, many people think.
(14:57):
So some of this is throughthat professional registration and
but also, how do we value staffwho are professionally registered,
who are regulated and open upbetter career pathways for them
as well, opportunities to progress withinsocial care to develop new skill sets.
There's a lot of really good opportunitiescoming up with Digital and data
as well work that we didwith the Glasgow School of Art,
(15:20):
for instance, on what the future of careat home could be created.
Three different rulesfor care at home staff.
So we had the care connector and we have
they are looking at creatingmeaningful relationships.
This could be digital relationships,it could be physical relationships.
We have the care navigatorwho's effectively supporting someone
(15:42):
through the systemand helping them to understand
what a multidisciplinary team isand actually how people and individuals
can use that multidisciplinary teamto to support them effectively.
And lastly, we had the care technologieswhich hopefully will be taking forward
as part of the IMPACT work.
And that's about people being ableto use technology in a different way
(16:02):
to support them, to live independentlyand to contribute to society for longer.
So through creating those different careerpathways
for social care, hopefully we're startingto raise the profile of care, start
to think about how care can be delivereddifferently as well.
In addition to that,there's also the changing
of perspectives of what care should beand how it could be looked at.
(16:23):
And this was discussedslightly in the first episode.
But in Scotland, social care is actuallya net contributor to the economy.
It is across all the nationsand in Scotland that comes to a cost
of £3.4 billion, which is no small sum,given that it contributes
more to agriculture than agriculture,forestry and fishing combined.
(16:43):
So it is really large.
How do we reframe social care,not just as being that empowering
and independence, supporting frameworkthat it could be,
but also in being that valuingand contributor
to the economy of society.
Yeah. Thanks, Karen.
I think that's really important.
For me,social care is a is a form of social
(17:05):
and economic investment that we makein ourselves as as individuals
and as a societyto have a better life together.
But it also makes such a massive impact
in terms of the economyand local communities and jobs and
the things that it
frees us up to do with our timeand our skills.
And it too often gets portrayedas a kind of drain on scarce resources.
(17:27):
Doesn't is as the opposite of that.
And again, I hope IMPACT can be partof drawing attention
to and celebratingand part of that that reframing.
Clenton Is that your take as well,
that there's a jobto be done there about reframing?
And you've mentioned
the social care future visionearlier is a really good example of that
and of raising the profile of careas part of the work that IMPACT does?
(17:51):
most definitely.Definitely agreeabout the reframing,
even if we look at the,you know, the language of care worker,
and we've done some,
you know, anecdotal exercise
to see what the public think of the termand most people's
perception and imagery
(18:12):
that's associated with,you know, the word care worker
is someone that worksin an institution, you know?
And, you know,
when we said the term personal assistant
that had no resignation,no one really understood
(18:33):
what whatthat term most people thought it was.
So when working in an office,you know, doing admin at work,
but a personal assistant enables me
as a disabled person to have a lifethey facilitate me
doing thingsother people just take for granted.
(18:54):
And we need to understand that
the term care worker isn't fixed,it's fluid,
and it can have within that terma support worker,
a personal assistant.
But we ned to understand thatIt doesn't have to mean
that you as a care worker,you work in institutions wearing uniforms.
(19:18):
And and so my personal assistantsdo not wear
a uniform.
They come in into my houseand help me when I'm doing
work or volunteering or just
trying to access the community.
And so reframing,
(19:41):
there's a lot of work that we need to do,but also
about investment.
You talked about the Karen and Jon,you talked about investment.
And to me,
investment needs to be looked through
the lens of infrastructure.
And what I mean by that,you know, as you look at care and support,
(20:03):
I think there's a lackof physical infrastructure that enables
that that vision of social carethat I talked about
to happen.
But also human infrastructure,
you know, to enable to be
caring about each other.
(20:23):
It's about relationships.
It's you know, we forget all of that.
That is really important.
And reward and recognition is important.
But also, I've just done a
little bit of research about
the value and I heard
(20:46):
a saw that a dog walker could get between
15 and £20 an hour and,
you know, a Care worker will get paid
between £9.50 and £10.50.
Now, that tells me.
(21:07):
What we value in life,
you know, and we need to have, I think.
A national conversation.
You know, and put politics aside.
But a national conversation on what
type of society do we want?
(21:28):
Yeah, I agree with that ClentonAnd when I was thinking about what to do
career wise I remember saying,I want to be a social worker
and I want to work with older people.
And someone said to me, Don't do that,Jon, you're clever enough to be a doctor.
And there's just
so much in that statement, isn't there,about kind of
what we value and who we valueand about our assumptions about life.
(21:48):
And I think there's a kind of rebelliousstreak in me that made me think,
you know what, if I do nothing else,I'm going to be a social worker
working with older people , just despitethe person that said that to me.
But it would be easy for a young person
not to respondlike that, wouldn't it, to think who?
Actually,maybe this isn't a good career choice.
I should be doing something,something else.
So I think there's somethingreally important for impact
(22:09):
about how we're kind of visibleand how we celebrate
our work and other people's work and,
you know, raise the profile of the sectorand do some work at the moment
alongside Anna Serverwrightfrom social care future as well.
Supporting me as advisors to the Houseof Lords Committee on Adult Social Care.
(22:30):
And there they're focussing onhow do we increase the visibility of
of social care
and it may be at the moment is too easyfor politicians to ignore social care
because they don'tget the same public pressure or response
around care related issuesas they do on other topics.
So actually does visibilityand understanding and kind of support
(22:51):
for the the notion of care leads to betterfunding in future and different kinds of
and more more profile and better policyand so on
if we can do something about visibility
So that feels like a really importantby-product of a centre
like IMPACT And certainly with the fundingwe've won as well,
we're aware that it's a kind of oncein a generation opportunity for
(23:14):
to do something really meaningful
and to draw attentionto the importance of these issues.
I'll just move on to something else thatthat the Terry and Obert and Karen raised.
And that was about the importanceof co-production.
And you've both talked about that already.
But our sense,I think, as a leadership team
is that when we talk about evidenceof what works, there are all sorts
(23:38):
of assumptions about what constitutesvalid evidence and who decides.
But I think for us, the impactwhen we talk about evidence,
we're meaning insightsfrom different kinds of research.
We're meaning the insightsfrom people's lived experience
if they draw on care and supportor if they're carers.
And we're talking about the practiceknowledge of people
(23:58):
who work in adult social care services,and I'd see research lived experience
and practice knowledgeas three kind of complementary
but slightly different waysof knowing the world that we,
we need to bring togetherto, to kind of triangulate
and to kind of work withas we bring people together to work on
common problemsand hopefully on common solutions.
(24:21):
And that'll be centralto everything that IMPACT does.
But again,have you come across that in your roles
that that kind of assumption that when we,
you know, either
a belittling of co-production
as something that should runthrough everything that we do
but also when it comes to debatesabout evidence that that kind of
assumption that evidence meansparticular types of research
(24:41):
rather than lived experience,practice, knowledge and research.
Clenton, would that be your experience?
I totally agree.
One of the issueseven when we talk about the term
co-production, it's a bit jargonistic,you know,
(25:02):
and what I talk about co-production
means working together, learning together,
you know,and also I hear a lot of organisations
talk about doing co-productionand it feels for me
it just reminds me of a songby Salt-N-Pepa
(25:22):
and they talked about Let's Talk About Sex
and co-production for me is teenage sex.
Everyone talks about it.
Nobody really knows how to do it.
Everyone thinkseverybody else is doing it.
So everyone claims they're doing itand that's how we
it feels for meand I just think we need to
(25:45):
actually do intentional
relationship building to
move in the direction that we need
because I believe we're at a crossroads
and, you know, resources, we need
everybody to be involvedin those discussions
(26:06):
to look
at creating something different
and using new thinking to create that.
And I believe we need to accept
wisdom is that uncertainty is increasing
and the only way to look at is to bridge,
(26:27):
bring people together,to look, to help become the solution.
And I'm one of those biggest
solutions for me, I think, is
it reminds me of a book
by Ralph G.
Nichols that talks it's calledAre You Listening?
(26:49):
And the biggest quote
that sticks in my mind about the book,it says,
The most basic of all human needs
is the need to understandand be understood.
And the best way to understandpeople is to listen to them.
(27:09):
Thanks, Clenton I agree entirely.
I'm also amused in the course of theconversation we've gone from Malcolm X
to Nelson Mandela to Salt N Pepato slightly unlikely trio, isn't it?
But but you weave them togetherseamlessly.
That's incredible.
Karen, what would youwhat would you say about
about co-production and about thatthat kind of maybe that slightly broader,
more inclusive, more more messynotion of what evidence actually is.
(27:35):
So let's take a co-production approach.
I'll come back in about 10 minutesonce we've sorted our bit out first
and then we'll let you in to doco-production.
Isn't that how it works?
And I think therein liesthe challenge of co-production.
You know, everyone is kind of the same.
Everyone says that doing it.
But actually you get a bit stuckbecause when you have an idea or a concept
(27:57):
or a vision,at what bit does it become co-production?
And if you started thinking about italready, does that mean that my thoughts
are part of the system startingand when to invite other people in and
and how do we work agileand how do we make sure
that we create that spacefor everyone to be equal in that?
And how do we make sure we're all creatingthat level playing field?
(28:18):
And I think this is part of what we'vebeen grappling a bit with IMPACT as well.
And the creation of the assemblieshas been that space of of levelling up,
I guess of of creating a spacefor people to come together
and actually make surethat everyone engaged and involved
has a shared conceptof shared understanding of of where we are
(28:39):
and where we're approaching this fromand actually what we want to achieve.
Some of the work that we have donethrough our Social Care Futures programme
was creating a discursive documentand that's thinking about
what if social care was recognisedas leaders and creativity and innovation.
So the innovation is driven bythe aspirations of people and communities
(28:59):
rather than services and systems,and we're acknowledging our assets.
Those local partnerships- how do wefacilitate them, make them happen,
using that more effectivelyfor the benefits of communities.
And of course, I couldn'tspeak about co-production
without speaking about self-directedsupport and really,
you know, giving people the opportunityand the chance to take control
of their own choiceand how they access care and support.
(29:23):
So all of these are about co-production.
But actually, you know what, in socialcare, we are facilitators of that change.
That is what we are skilled to do.
So some of what impact needs todo is create those conditions
for co-production to happen
and to be honest and open and transparent
about where we are in that processas well, and very much making it
(29:46):
an open process where we can allow peopleto engage in that equal space.
Speaking about how we recognisewhat is intelligence data,
research evidencethat gets much more complicated
and I guess I wanted to come backto a quote
by Bryony Brownbecause I found her during lockdown and
she well she got me throughsome dark times if I'm perfectly honest
(30:08):
and she describes the storiesas being data as a soul with soul.
And so how can we use thatto underpin our thinking, to capture
what is happening in the moment,to capture what is happening beyond that,
and to conceptualise the future as well.
So once you start to think of a storyas a form of evidence,
(30:30):
then you begin to open spacefor more nuanced
response, for more individual response,for a much more personalised response.
And I think there's a lot of opportunitiesthrough that.
That's fantastic, both of you, thank you.
In a moment, I'll just come to both of youas we wrap up.
Just just very briefly, if there's anything that your what are your aspirations for
(30:54):
IMPACT?
You know, in a sentence in a coupleof sentences, why are you in this?
You're busy people.
You know, you're incredibly busy people,and yet you're giving up your time and
to work on this long term UK wide
centre,what are you hoping that it can deliver?
And then maybe at the endI'll just say a little bit
about what I've heardfrom the two podcasts and how I think
(31:15):
people can get involved in in futureas well.
So, so Clenton what's,what's in it for you?
What are you hoping that IMPACT achieves?
What's in it for me?
What I hope IMPACT achieves.
That's a really good question, and
I would have to use
the analogy of sharp elbows.
What I mean by that.
(31:38):
I know how the system is supposed to work
and how it often works in practice,
and I know the question to ask.
I also understandthe importance of collective
voices of
people who draw on care and support.
But not everyone has these sharp elbows,
(32:02):
and too often people struggle
to get the information,the advice, the support they need to plan
and make decisionsaround care and support.
So we need to get smarter
at providing information and advicethat makes sense to people
about their rights and entitlements,but also all the resources
(32:27):
that can assist themto keep well, active and connected.
And basically, it's about relationships,you know.
And and we need to rebalancethe transactional elements
of adult social careand make it more human.
(32:47):
You know, andand to stop that and I would call it. It
reminds me of
the vicar of Dibley.
You know, the character Jim Trott who keepsaying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You know,that's what people really remember.
(33:09):
So I would like to hope we can
stop all that lost translation
That impact can makea real practical difference
in the experience,
you know, at the practical end of using,
you know, giving and receiving of careand support.
(33:32):
Thanks.
Clenton and Karen, what would you say?
Goodness.
So for me, IMPACT is an opportunity
to create pathways
so that we can learnthrough mutual experience
and to value those and capture thoseand then use those
so that we can really movefrom the improvement agenda
(33:56):
to a truly transformational agendafor social care
that starts to, you know,really put into action and into place .
All of those things that we'veconceptualised for care for so many years
so that we move to that bottom upgrassroots system
that's fundamentally doing thingsfor people and by people
(34:17):
who access care and supportand that system that values people
at the heart of it, at the centre of itand leading through that change.
Thank you both has been loadsin that discussion and in the
the first podcastwith Karen and Terry and Obert
and I've heard lots about the importanceof shared vision and about kind of
(34:38):
convening and coming together, creatingkind of spaces in which we can do that.
Lots about the importance of co-productionand meaningful two way relationships
at every stage of IMPACT's workand its governance
about reframing and raising the profileand celebrating care
and the relationships that it represents.
(35:00):
And also about that the importanceof that practical support on the ground
to make a difference in thethe realities of of local services .
If people are interested in finding out
more about IMPACT or what's happeningnext, please go to the website.
People can sign up to be partof a regular distribution list
and a user and user and carerled organisations
(35:22):
in particular,or community groups that work with people
whose voices are seldomheard can also add some extra details .
Still very brief if they want to,so that we can keep in particular touch
with themand work to ensure that those voices
are heard in all the work that we do.
So a massivethank you from me to Clenton to Karen,
(35:44):
and then from the first podcast, Terry,
Obert and Karen McCormick.
And let's keep these conversations goingbecause they are the bringing
together of people from differentbackgrounds to explore these issues,
to make sense of the worldand then to move forward together,
feel like a really importantpart of the solution.
(36:06):
So thank you for listening.
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and Circle,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series,
our researchers welcome expertsin the field and those giving or receiving
(00:29):
care to discuss crucial issuesin social care as we collectively attempt
to make a positive differenceto how care is experienced
and provided.
Hello everyoneand welcome to today's podcast.
(00:50):
My name is Jon Glasby,I'm director of IMPACT, the UK Centre
for implementing evidence in AdultSocial Care and this is the second
in two podcasts that we've recordedaround the role of impact
and around the importanceof implementation in adult social care.
In the first one,we heard from Karen, Terry and Obert,
(01:12):
speaking from the perspective of someonewho's drawn on care and support,
someone who's a carerand someone who's been a care worker
about some of the opportunities but alsothe challenges facing adult social care.
And in this podcast,we've got opportunities
for different membersof the IMPACT Leadership team
who bring different perspectivesand have different roles within the system
(01:34):
to reflect on what we've heardand on how impact might take it forward.
So I'll introduce youto the two colleagues who are joining me
today, Clenton, Could you just say helloand give us a brief
summary of your background?
Hi everyone.
My name's Clenton Farquharson and I
introduce myself as a triple threat
(01:56):
to adult social care
as a person who draws on careand support on I'm a black man
and a disabled person and I have multiple
long term conditions and I,
with others in
Birmingham, runa disabled user led organisation
(02:17):
and nationally I'm the chair of Think
Local Act Personal,which is a partnership of organisations
and peoplelooking at promoting personalisation.
Thanks, Clentonand then I'll come to Karen.
Hi, I'm Karen Hedge and I am Deputy ChiefExecutive at Scottish Care,
which is the membership bodyfor care providers in Scotland.
(02:41):
And on the leadership panel,I represent providers across the nations.
I have the luxury throughout my careerin care, having sat at different seats
in the table enteringsocial care as a paid care worker whilst
I was at university and at that timeI started to get frustrated
with the system and I supposeI've been fighting the systems ever since.
(03:03):
So how do we really get awayfrom those challenges that systems pose
and moveback to the delivery of care and support
that's thereto empower the people that we work with?
Thanks, Karen.
And I've got similar experiences.
When I trained as a as a social worker,I found it really difficult
placing people.
Was the language usedat the time in services that the deep down
(03:27):
I didn't feel were good enough for meor for my family.
And I always wondered what I could doto try and make that better.
And I think loads of people working acrossloads of parts of social care
have that dilemma,don't they, on it on a daily basis?
When we were listening to Karen and Terryand To Obert,
they raised a number of thingsthat they wanted IMPACT
(03:49):
to take into account and to respondto as it gets up and running
with some of its pilot projects in 2022
and then its much widerdelivery programme from 2023 onwards.
And one of the things that came up timeand time again was, was
that they perceived a real lack ofof shared vision in adult social care
(04:10):
, a sense that is was really fragmentedand quite hard for
people from different backgrounds
and different parts of the systemto come together
to to talk to each other, actually,and to better understand each other
and to work on common problems together.
I know that that's been sort of centrestage in our thinking and I can say
a bit later on maybe about how IMPACTis intending to respond to some of that.
(04:31):
But is that your experience too as welland the different roles
that you've occupiedthat that lack of shared vision?
And do you have a sense of whatwe could do to to move that forward?
Clenton, maybe I'll come to you first.
On the lack of shared vision.
I'm part of a movementcalled social care movement.
(04:51):
And with TLAP and other people
who draw on care and supportand professionals and providers.
And we coalesced around
this vision that talks aboutwe all want to live in the place
we call home with the peopleand things that we love in communities
(05:16):
where we look out for one another,doing the things that matter to us.
And that's the North Star
that we're trying to
have travel
in a direction of travellingand also using, Making It Real
(05:37):
and Making It RealWe at TLAP call a road map
that helps identify the sign posts
on that journey to the North Star.
And we use I statements of whatgood personalised care and support
looks like from the perspective of peoplewho draw
(05:59):
on care and supportthat includes carers and unpaid
carers.
But also there is another element to the
I statement, which is theWe statement that we expect organisations
and providers to work to.
(06:19):
And that's the We statements that help
realise what the I statements does.
So yes, totally agreethere needs to be a shared understanding
but also a shared purpose.
Just before I come to Karen,how do you actually do that in practise?
I mean, how do you do it as a person?
Because you're very values drivenand you're very clear
(06:42):
about what social care isand what it should be trying to achieve.
And you don't back downfrom from speaking your mind,
but you don't do it in an adversarial way.
You do it in a waythat kind of brings people together
from different perspectives.
And you you kind of listenas well as talk.
And I don't know, there'sjust something about, about,
I don't know if it's you as a person
or about how you approach the worldthat helps to kind of build relationships
(07:05):
rather than rather than kind of alienateor exclude people.
That just feels really important to meas well.
And I think that's I would
I owe that to my mum and dad,
my mum and dad
are part of the Windrush generation
that came to Birminghamand they put up and witness
(07:29):
a lot of inequalities,
prejudice, stereotypes for them.
But what they instilled in us as a family
was, you know, to forgive.
But don't forget and one of the things
that they've always said to me
was to remember a timewhen you didn't know what you know now.
(07:54):
So noteverybody has gone on that journey as you.
So my mum and dad
always said you need to be a bridge.
You know, I remember then
listening and hearing about Malcolm X and
Nelson Mandela and they all talkedabout the term bridging.
(08:19):
You have to bring people togetherto you know and talk about
the wider us
than and them and usand that then brought me on to
looking at how important language isyou know and if we look at adult
social careit's peppered with a them and us you know,
(08:40):
dehumanising language even,you know, about service user,
you know, and so a service useris a passive recipient,
not an active citizenwho you would want to take part
in designingwhat your future might look like.
And that's why
we when we talk about personalisation,we said a life, not a service.
(09:05):
So how do we create meaningful lives as
and an equal life of others?
Yeah.
Thanks, Clentonthat's really inspiring and
just really importantthat we live that out in our practise
and our relationships, isn't it? And.
Karen, what wouldwhat would you say about that?
Both that lack of shared vision,but also, you know, kind of the role that
(09:25):
either you or Scottish careor IMPACT can play in, you know , in
bringing people together to work onsome of that stuff with each other.
First of all, wow, what a privilege to sitbeside you here Clenton
and have that conversation.
You really are an inspiration.
Yeah, absolutely.
Fascinating insight.
So thank you so much for sharing that.
I wanted to also come backto, you know, the strapline about
(09:48):
this is not about service,it's about having a life.
Some of that chimes with the opportunitiesthat we have ahead of ourselves
in Scotland at the moment.
So we are on the precipice of the creationof a national care service
and one of the some of the workthat we did at Scottish Care,
which was a collaborative piece of workthat was co-produced
and co-designed about whatthat future of care should look like.
(10:11):
And that's really the crux here.
And I'll come back to quote, designin a minute.
But keeping in that focusof not about service, about having a life,
what we posited in the result of thatpiece of work is actually shouldn't
be a national care servicethat we're creating.
It should be a national care framework.
This is about creating a systemthat supports people
to have that life, not about that service,not about that passive.
(10:33):
It's not about that doing to.
So come back to the co- design bit now
and Clenton spoke about this as well.
This is about,you know, actors owning their own
potential but working togetherto achieve that and obtain that.
And that'swhere the shared vision comes from.
I had a really inspirational meetingyesterday about some work on
Care at Home Collaborativesthat's happening in Fife.
(10:56):
And what we came to reallyand this is not new.
We know this things work whenwe approach it in a space of equality.
We all roll up our sleeves and we get onand we get it done.
And that's what's really important here.
It's not about services.
It's about having a life.
Yeah, thanks.
both and as you've been talking,I've just been reflecting on
(11:16):
some of the design principlesbehind IMPACT as well
and the waywe're trying to take that forward.
You know, we have thatmission of good care isn't about services.
It's about having a life
which is really consistent with the visionthat both of you sets out.
Last week I was chairingone of our IMPACT assemblies
and we have five of those across the UK,but they're they're made up of a mix
(11:36):
of people who draw on care and supportcarers,
frontline practitionersof different kinds, service providers
of different kinds, leadersand commissioners of different kinds,
researchers and others.
And it it felt a little bit like that,what you're both saying really,
but in microcosm
as we were testing some of our thinkingand developing our ways of working.
(11:57):
And it was just like the bestpart of my week chairing that assembly,
if I'm honest, the kind of richnessof that, that dialogue.
And they weren't easy conversationsbecause lots of people didn't
agree with each other on on the best wayforward.
So quite difficult conversationsin one sense, but really important.
But I think they startedfrom a position of respect
(12:18):
for each otherand a kind of desire to make things better
and a desireto listen as well as to to speak.
And so it was,
you know,
I think those kinds of ways of working aregoing to be really important for impact.
And I think it's going
to have a real kind of convening role,if you like, in helping to facilitate
some of those discussions.
And I wonderwhether that's a bit different
to some of the evidence centreshave been in the past where, you know,
(12:42):
it's almost as if we've got an answerand we just need to give it to people
whilst here.
I'm notsure there's an answer necessarily,
but it's about coming together
to to work on itand to try and make progress together.
So like I was just making the links with
some of the kind of impact conversationsas you were, you were speaking.
Another thing that Karen and Obertand Terry mentioned was around them,
(13:04):
it's really hard to do some of this workin a in a society
that tends to undervalue care generally,
to undervalue peoplewho draw on care and support,
to undervalue care, and then to undervaluepeople who are involved in providing
care as well.
And they were hopefulthat impact could be part of a
of the processof increasing the visibility and drawing
(13:26):
attention to the importance of ofcare is something that helps us all
live the kind of livesthat we want to lead together.
Is that something, again,that you recognise
in your work, that undervaluing of careand the the job
to be done to try and change mindsetsand perceptions?
And maybe, Karen, I could start with you.
I wish I could say no, but sadly,
(13:48):
it's absolutelysomething we see time and time and again.
Most recently,we saw the winter pandemic response times
when we had a particularly challengingcrisis on our hands with staffing issues
and obviously pandemic responseat the same time.
And the politicianswanted to intervene to support the sector.
(14:11):
And what they did was to invest moneyin both the NHS and social care.
And that sounds really likean excellent plan and on the face of it.
But what they did actually waspay social care staff
less for doing the same jobas someone in the NHS .
So they aligned a social care jobto a band.
Less than the equivalent of that bandwould be in working in a hospital.
(14:36):
And in Scotland as well, social carestaff are professionally registered,
whereas those working in the hospitalwouldn't be so effectively
It was a double whammy.
So how do we get over that?
How do we change that perceptionand how do we get the public
to understand as well that frankly, socialcare is not just about tea,
whichsadly is what many, many people think.
(14:57):
So some of this is throughthat professional registration and
but also, how do we value staffwho are professionally registered,
who are regulated and open upbetter career pathways for them
as well, opportunities to progress withinsocial care to develop new skill sets.
There's a lot of really good opportunitiescoming up with Digital and data
as well work that we didwith the Glasgow School of Art,
(15:20):
for instance, on what the future of careat home could be created.
Three different rulesfor care at home staff.
So we had the care connector and we have
they are looking at creatingmeaningful relationships.
This could be digital relationships,it could be physical relationships.
We have the care navigatorwho's effectively supporting someone
(15:42):
through the systemand helping them to understand
what a multidisciplinary team isand actually how people and individuals
can use that multidisciplinary teamto to support them effectively.
And lastly, we had the care technologieswhich hopefully will be taking forward
as part of the IMPACT work.
And that's about people being ableto use technology in a different way
(16:02):
to support them, to live independentlyand to contribute to society for longer.
So through creating those different careerpathways
for social care, hopefully we're startingto raise the profile of care, start
to think about how care can be delivereddifferently as well.
In addition to that,there's also the changing
of perspectives of what care should beand how it could be looked at.
(16:23):
And this was discussedslightly in the first episode.
But in Scotland, social care is actuallya net contributor to the economy.
It is across all the nationsand in Scotland that comes to a cost
of £3.4 billion, which is no small sum,given that it contributes
more to agriculture than agriculture,forestry and fishing combined.
(16:43):
So it is really large.
How do we reframe social care,not just as being that empowering
and independence, supporting frameworkthat it could be,
but also in being that valuingand contributor
to the economy of society.
Yeah. Thanks, Karen.
I think that's really important.
For me,social care is a is a form of social
(17:05):
and economic investment that we makein ourselves as as individuals
and as a societyto have a better life together.
But it also makes such a massive impact
in terms of the economyand local communities and jobs and
the things that it
frees us up to do with our timeand our skills.
And it too often gets portrayedas a kind of drain on scarce resources.
(17:27):
Doesn't is as the opposite of that.
And again, I hope IMPACT can be partof drawing attention
to and celebratingand part of that that reframing.
Clenton Is that your take as well,
that there's a jobto be done there about reframing?
And you've mentioned
the social care future visionearlier is a really good example of that
and of raising the profile of careas part of the work that IMPACT does?
(17:51):
most definitely.Definitely agreeabout the reframing,
even if we look at the,you know, the language of care worker,
and we've done some,
you know, anecdotal exercise
to see what the public think of the termand most people's
perception and imagery
(18:12):
that's associated with,you know, the word care worker
is someone that worksin an institution, you know?
And, you know,
when we said the term personal assistant
that had no resignation,no one really understood
(18:33):
what whatthat term most people thought it was.
So when working in an office,you know, doing admin at work,
but a personal assistant enables me
as a disabled person to have a lifethey facilitate me
doing thingsother people just take for granted.
(18:54):
And we need to understand that
the term care worker isn't fixed,it's fluid,
and it can have within that terma support worker,
a personal assistant.
But we ned to understand thatIt doesn't have to mean
that you as a care worker,you work in institutions wearing uniforms.
(19:18):
And and so my personal assistantsdo not wear
a uniform.
They come in into my houseand help me when I'm doing
work or volunteering or just
trying to access the community.
And so reframing,
(19:41):
there's a lot of work that we need to do,but also
about investment.
You talked about the Karen and Jon,you talked about investment.
And to me,
investment needs to be looked through
the lens of infrastructure.
And what I mean by that,you know, as you look at care and support,
(20:03):
I think there's a lackof physical infrastructure that enables
that that vision of social carethat I talked about
to happen.
But also human infrastructure,
you know, to enable to be
caring about each other.
(20:23):
It's about relationships.
It's you know, we forget all of that.
That is really important.
And reward and recognition is important.
But also, I've just done a
little bit of research about
the value and I heard
(20:46):
a saw that a dog walker could get between
15 and £20 an hour and,
you know, a Care worker will get paid
between £9.50 and £10.50.
Now, that tells me.
(21:07):
What we value in life,
you know, and we need to have, I think.
A national conversation.
You know, and put politics aside.
But a national conversation on what
type of society do we want?
(21:28):
Yeah, I agree with that ClentonAnd when I was thinking about what to do
career wise I remember saying,I want to be a social worker
and I want to work with older people.
And someone said to me, Don't do that,Jon, you're clever enough to be a doctor.
And there's just
so much in that statement, isn't there,about kind of
what we value and who we valueand about our assumptions about life.
(21:48):
And I think there's a kind of rebelliousstreak in me that made me think,
you know what, if I do nothing else,I'm going to be a social worker
working with older people , just despitethe person that said that to me.
But it would be easy for a young person
not to respondlike that, wouldn't it, to think who?
Actually,maybe this isn't a good career choice.
I should be doing something,something else.
So I think there's somethingreally important for impact
(22:09):
about how we're kind of visibleand how we celebrate
our work and other people's work and,
you know, raise the profile of the sectorand do some work at the moment
alongside Anna Serverwrightfrom social care future as well.
Supporting me as advisors to the Houseof Lords Committee on Adult Social Care.
(22:30):
And there they're focussing onhow do we increase the visibility of
of social care
and it may be at the moment is too easyfor politicians to ignore social care
because they don'tget the same public pressure or response
around care related issuesas they do on other topics.
So actually does visibilityand understanding and kind of support
(22:51):
for the the notion of care leads to betterfunding in future and different kinds of
and more more profile and better policyand so on
if we can do something about visibility
So that feels like a really importantby-product of a centre
like IMPACT And certainly with the fundingwe've won as well,
we're aware that it's a kind of oncein a generation opportunity for
(23:14):
to do something really meaningful
and to draw attentionto the importance of these issues.
I'll just move on to something else thatthat the Terry and Obert and Karen raised.
And that was about the importanceof co-production.
And you've both talked about that already.
But our sense,I think, as a leadership team
is that when we talk about evidenceof what works, there are all sorts
(23:38):
of assumptions about what constitutesvalid evidence and who decides.
But I think for us, the impactwhen we talk about evidence,
we're meaning insightsfrom different kinds of research.
We're meaning the insightsfrom people's lived experience
if they draw on care and supportor if they're carers.
And we're talking about the practiceknowledge of people
(23:58):
who work in adult social care services,and I'd see research lived experience
and practice knowledgeas three kind of complementary
but slightly different waysof knowing the world that we,
we need to bring togetherto, to kind of triangulate
and to kind of work withas we bring people together to work on
common problemsand hopefully on common solutions.
(24:21):
And that'll be centralto everything that IMPACT does.
But again,have you come across that in your roles
that that kind of assumption that when we,
you know, either
a belittling of co-production
as something that should runthrough everything that we do
but also when it comes to debatesabout evidence that that kind of
assumption that evidence meansparticular types of research
(24:41):
rather than lived experience,practice, knowledge and research.
Clenton, would that be your experience?
I totally agree.
One of the issueseven when we talk about the term
co-production, it's a bit jargonistic,you know,
(25:02):
and what I talk about co-production
means working together, learning together,
you know,and also I hear a lot of organisations
talk about doing co-productionand it feels for me
it just reminds me of a songby Salt-N-Pepa
(25:22):
and they talked about Let's Talk About Sex
and co-production for me is teenage sex.
Everyone talks about it.
Nobody really knows how to do it.
Everyone thinkseverybody else is doing it.
So everyone claims they're doing itand that's how we
it feels for meand I just think we need to
(25:45):
actually do intentional
relationship building to
move in the direction that we need
because I believe we're at a crossroads
and, you know, resources, we need
everybody to be involvedin those discussions
(26:06):
to look
at creating something different
and using new thinking to create that.
And I believe we need to accept
wisdom is that uncertainty is increasing
and the only way to look at is to bridge,
(26:27):
bring people together,to look, to help become the solution.
And I'm one of those biggest
solutions for me, I think, is
it reminds me of a book
by Ralph G.
Nichols that talks it's calledAre You Listening?
(26:49):
And the biggest quote
that sticks in my mind about the book,it says,
The most basic of all human needs
is the need to understandand be understood.
And the best way to understandpeople is to listen to them.
(27:09):
Thanks, Clenton I agree entirely.
I'm also amused in the course of theconversation we've gone from Malcolm X
to Nelson Mandela to Salt N Pepato slightly unlikely trio, isn't it?
But but you weave them togetherseamlessly.
That's incredible.
Karen, what would youwhat would you say about
about co-production and about thatthat kind of maybe that slightly broader,
more inclusive, more more messynotion of what evidence actually is.
(27:35):
So let's take a co-production approach.
I'll come back in about 10 minutesonce we've sorted our bit out first
and then we'll let you in to doco-production.
Isn't that how it works?
And I think therein liesthe challenge of co-production.
You know, everyone is kind of the same.
Everyone says that doing it.
But actually you get a bit stuckbecause when you have an idea or a concept
(27:57):
or a vision,at what bit does it become co-production?
And if you started thinking about italready, does that mean that my thoughts
are part of the system startingand when to invite other people in and
and how do we work agileand how do we make sure
that we create that spacefor everyone to be equal in that?
And how do we make sure we're all creatingthat level playing field?
(28:18):
And I think this is part of what we'vebeen grappling a bit with IMPACT as well.
And the creation of the assemblieshas been that space of of levelling up,
I guess of of creating a spacefor people to come together
and actually make surethat everyone engaged and involved
has a shared conceptof shared understanding of of where we are
(28:39):
and where we're approaching this fromand actually what we want to achieve.
Some of the work that we have donethrough our Social Care Futures programme
was creating a discursive documentand that's thinking about
what if social care was recognisedas leaders and creativity and innovation.
So the innovation is driven bythe aspirations of people and communities
(28:59):
rather than services and systems,and we're acknowledging our assets.
Those local partnerships- how do wefacilitate them, make them happen,
using that more effectivelyfor the benefits of communities.
And of course, I couldn'tspeak about co-production
without speaking about self-directedsupport and really,
you know, giving people the opportunityand the chance to take control
of their own choiceand how they access care and support.
(29:23):
So all of these are about co-production.
But actually, you know what, in socialcare, we are facilitators of that change.
That is what we are skilled to do.
So some of what impact needs todo is create those conditions
for co-production to happen
and to be honest and open and transparent
about where we are in that processas well, and very much making it
(29:46):
an open process where we can allow peopleto engage in that equal space.
Speaking about how we recognisewhat is intelligence data,
research evidencethat gets much more complicated
and I guess I wanted to come backto a quote
by Bryony Brownbecause I found her during lockdown and
she well she got me throughsome dark times if I'm perfectly honest
(30:08):
and she describes the storiesas being data as a soul with soul.
And so how can we use thatto underpin our thinking, to capture
what is happening in the moment,to capture what is happening beyond that,
and to conceptualise the future as well.
So once you start to think of a storyas a form of evidence,
(30:30):
then you begin to open spacefor more nuanced
response, for more individual response,for a much more personalised response.
And I think there's a lot of opportunitiesthrough that.
That's fantastic, both of you, thank you.
In a moment, I'll just come to both of youas we wrap up.
Just just very briefly, if there's anything that your what are your aspirations for
(30:54):
IMPACT?
You know, in a sentence in a coupleof sentences, why are you in this?
You're busy people.
You know, you're incredibly busy people,and yet you're giving up your time and
to work on this long term UK wide
centre,what are you hoping that it can deliver?
And then maybe at the endI'll just say a little bit
about what I've heardfrom the two podcasts and how I think
(31:15):
people can get involved in in futureas well.
So, so Clenton what's,what's in it for you?
What are you hoping that IMPACT achieves?
What's in it for me?
What I hope IMPACT achieves.
That's a really good question, and
I would have to use
the analogy of sharp elbows.
What I mean by that.
(31:38):
I know how the system is supposed to work
and how it often works in practice,
and I know the question to ask.
I also understandthe importance of collective
voices of
people who draw on care and support.
But not everyone has these sharp elbows,
(32:02):
and too often people struggle
to get the information,the advice, the support they need to plan
and make decisionsaround care and support.
So we need to get smarter
at providing information and advicethat makes sense to people
about their rights and entitlements,but also all the resources
(32:27):
that can assist themto keep well, active and connected.
And basically, it's about relationships,you know.
And and we need to rebalancethe transactional elements
of adult social careand make it more human.
(32:47):
You know, andand to stop that and I would call it. It
reminds me of
the vicar of Dibley.
You know, the character Jim Trott who keepsaying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You know,that's what people really remember.
(33:09):
So I would like to hope we can
stop all that lost translation
That impact can makea real practical difference
in the experience,
you know, at the practical end of using,
you know, giving and receiving of careand support.
(33:32):
Thanks.
Clenton and Karen, what would you say?
Goodness.
So for me, IMPACT is an opportunity
to create pathways
so that we can learnthrough mutual experience
and to value those and capture thoseand then use those
so that we can really movefrom the improvement agenda
(33:56):
to a truly transformational agendafor social care
that starts to, you know,really put into action and into place .
All of those things that we'veconceptualised for care for so many years
so that we move to that bottom upgrassroots system
that's fundamentally doing thingsfor people and by people
(34:17):
who access care and supportand that system that values people
at the heart of it, at the centre of itand leading through that change.
Thank you both has been loadsin that discussion and in the
the first podcastwith Karen and Terry and Obert
and I've heard lots about the importanceof shared vision and about kind of
(34:38):
convening and coming together, creatingkind of spaces in which we can do that.
Lots about the importance of co-productionand meaningful two way relationships
at every stage of IMPACT's workand its governance
about reframing and raising the profileand celebrating care
and the relationships that it represents.
(35:00):
And also about that the importanceof that practical support on the ground
to make a difference in thethe realities of of local services .
If people are interested in finding out
more about IMPACT or what's happeningnext, please go to the website.
People can sign up to be partof a regular distribution list
and a user and user and carerled organisations
(35:22):
in particular,or community groups that work with people
whose voices are seldomheard can also add some extra details .
Still very brief if they want to,so that we can keep in particular touch
with themand work to ensure that those voices
are heard in all the work that we do.
So a massivethank you from me to Clenton to Karen,
(35:44):
and then from the first podcast, Terry,
Obert and Karen McCormick.
And let's keep these conversations goingbecause they are the bringing
together of people from differentbackgrounds to explore these issues,
to make sense of the worldand then to move forward together,
feel like a really importantpart of the solution.
(36:06):
So thank you for listening.
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