December 18, 2023 • 43 mins
Centre for Care Researcher, Duncan Fisher, hosts Suliyat O'Balogun in this episode, which looks at established perceptions of home care provision, and how these perceptions inspired Suliyat to start her own home care business with a different model, with focus on sustainability, recruitment and retention, values and work place culture. They also discuss migration and individual care biographies, looking at Suliyat's journey into social work.
About our guestSuliyat O'Balogun qualified as a Social Worker in 2014. Between then and 2019, she worked in a Hospital Discharge Team based at the Luton and Dunstable Hospital.
In 2019, Suliyat moved to a Local Authority based in the South East of England, where she worked with adults over 18 years old, with physical, learning disabilities/difficulties and mental health issues. During this period, she managed a social work team, where she was responsible for overseeing the team’s operational needs, practice quality, KPIs and managing financial budgets. Suliyat was also involved in the recruitment process, including interviewing possible candidates, organising induction plans and subsequently, reviewing performance of team members regularly.
In 2023, Suliyat opened up a domiciliary care agency called This is Homecare.
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Learn more about our research on the Centre for Care website here: https://centreforcare.ac.uk/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and CIRCLE,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series, our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and to those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care
(00:27):
as we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Hello
and welcome to Care Matters,The podcast from the Economic
and Social Research Council’sCentre for Care
(00:48):
and the University of Sheffield’sCIRCLE Research Centre.
My name is Duncan Fisherand I am a research
associate at the Centre for Care.
We are delighted towelcome Suliyat O’Balagun as our guest,
and in this episodewe will discuss Suliyat's
current work,starting a new home care agency
(01:09):
and her longerterm experiences in adult social care.
The discussion sits in
the context of workforce issuesand pressures.
I will include topicssuch as sustainability,
recruitment and retention
values and workplace culture
and migration and individual careBiographies.
(01:31):
Welcome to Care Matters, SuliyatThank you Duncan for having me.
Suliyat O'Balagunis the registered manager of This is Home
Care, a domiciliary care agencythat she started
earlier in 2023.
The agency is basedin the south of England
and Buckinghamshire and coversparts of Herefordshire, too.
(01:55):
Suliyat as a qualified social worker
and gained her MA from Brunel University.
She also holds a B.A.
in international studies with economicsfrom the University of Birmingham.
Before starting the agency,
Suliyat spent a decade in social work,
first in hospital discharge,and then managing a local authority team,
(02:19):
supporting adults over the age of 18with physical learning
disabilitiesand difficulties and mental health issues.
She left the post to start the agencyand the decision to do so,
and the motivations and process behindthe change are a key point of discussion.
And this episode, again, a warmwelcome to you Suliyat.
(02:43):
Thank you, Duncan.
It's a pleasure.
So, Suliyat if you've recently set up youryour own home
care agency, can you just tell usa little bit about that?
Yes, that's right.
So the care agency is calledThis is Home Care,
and we received our CQC registrationor made the ninth.
(03:04):
And so I actually initially submittedthe registration form in February (2023).
So it took approximately 12 weeks.
So and, you know, of course,it would have taken lots of research
in orderto prepare for the registration form.
So I worked in active social servicesfor the past ten years.
(03:26):
And so far with it, yes, I did workin hospital and social work as I knew
when I moved into the community that Ithen was exposed
to home care providersand also the quality,
or should I say lack of quality.
And I think it was upon realisingthat actually this was the norm
(03:47):
for the clients that we were supportingin the local authority.
And although from a local authorityperspective, we did try to,
you know, implementchange and work with the providers
as there wasn't very much we could do.
So it was a case of,you know, telling clients that actually
there is really isn't really much, therereally isn't much
(04:08):
alternatives in, in the community.
And then just seeing the gapin the market, just for a provider
who would be committedto high quality care.
Thank you.
So you mentioned the CQCSo that's the Care Quality
Commission registration.
If mentioned issuesthere around care quality and also
(04:31):
and the gap in the market, sounds likethere were some of the key the key things.
And so the current state of playis that you've received your registration.
And what's happening now in terms of thethe agency.
Yeah.
So my my intentionbecause I think it's really important
that I understandhow care works, you know, on the ground.
(04:51):
So I do have a background in social workand I have work as a support worker.
I do want to also start by supporting themy clients to begin with.
So then I start to set the standard.
So I am at the momentlooking at and sourcing
from some clients privatelywhere I will act as their main carer.
(05:13):
I will get to know them,I will set the standard
and then hopefully recruitsomebody else to take over from me.
So I'm really taking on a hands onapproach, also wanting to take it slowly.
So although I know,I mean the demand is out there,
I think from my view it's about,you know, recognising
of course it's a businessbut making sure I'm doing what's necessary
(05:38):
to make it workand in the long term as well.
And so at that point, can you just maybecan you maybe
just for the benefit of our audience,can you just say
a little bit about the setting?
Yes, it's it'sa symptom of salary homecare provider.
So we'll be supporting adultswho have learning
physical, mentalhealth and issues as well.
(06:01):
And essentially it's to facilitateindividuals to remain at home
so that could be supporting themwith their personal care, meal
preparation, administering medication,as well as access in the community.
At the same time, we also want to focus onnot just the needs of a
so is also focusing on on their wants too.
(06:23):
So I strongly believe that you know thatdespite
all, you know health conditions
and disabilities, you can always
you can lead a fulfilling life,even if it's in the small things.
I think that's that's an aspectthat I really want to focus on.
So it's supporting individualsto lead a fulfilling life.
(06:43):
So in terms of this move,then to start your agency
and to leave your previous job, I guess
there's two things that have happenedthere.
And firstly, you talked a little bitabout your experience
as a social workerand working into local authority
and the experience they gave you,But also helped you to see, you know,
what was going on, I guess, beyondjust working and social work.
(07:07):
So what would you sayshaped ultimately shaped your decision
to leave the local authoritysocial work role?
Yeah, so so I think there's twodifferent levels to this.
I think there'sdefinitely a personal level.
So I think I would saysay about four years ago
I realised and you know,I did want to progress within social work.
(07:30):
So I was committedto, you know, climbing that ladder and,
you know,
going for the more senior positionsand really putting myself out there.
And, you know,through personal development, I understood
the importance of facing your fears,challenging your style, and,
you know, just seeing opportunitieswhere perhaps others
may notand being willing to take the risk.
(07:53):
So think, of course, seeing and workingvery closely with home care providers.
It was the understandingactually that is available opportunity
plus knowingif you can do a good job of it,
then it's it's all set to bea really rewarding industry to work in.
So I think that was one.
And then I think ultimately two years agoI did get a promotion
(08:16):
in my role and yes,it was really exciting.
And you know, the fact
that it was only working as a managerwithin the social work team,
but then at the same timeit's the acknowledgement to actually,
you know, it's like we were alwaysfirefighting all the time,
you know, shortage of staff,
shortage of fundingand not really been able to meet the care
(08:37):
and support needs of our residentsin the way that we would like.
For me, it became much bigger.
You know, that drive to goand start my own career
to see wherehopefully I can have that level of control
around the supportI can provide people in the community.
You know, I can drive that vision.
And for me, I thought that that'swhere the real rewarding work
(09:01):
would be ratherthan in the statutory setting.
I worked in a silo. And so
it sounds like that was a decisionmaybe that you
that is something you've been thinkingabout over a longer period of time,
really, and it's has taken a whileto kind of get to this point.
(09:22):
Yeah.
But that, that that's whyI think, you know, it's always very scary
to leave a secured job and
and it's a jobthat at the time I did enjoy.
So I did see value in it.
I did, you know, enjoy going out,supporting my clients
as best as I couldand eventually supporting a team.
(09:42):
I did enjoy that.
However, at the same time,I just had this real desire
to go and do something different.
And I think two years agowhen I did receive the promotion,
at one pointI thought, well, maybe I would stay
and I would continueto try and climb the ladder.
But then I thought, actually,you know, that's always going to be bad.
(10:03):
Why not go off,
do somethinga little bit out of my comfort zone
and see where that takes me and realisingthat actually, you know, the beef
industry is all basedon, you know, areas are quite linked.
So even if perhaps Ithen if it doesn't work out
partying,I can see I can always go back to.
(10:24):
So it was, it was, it did take a long timeand, and also I did
want to ensureI had, you know, enough savings as well.
So I think I know you can start
I'm career agency on a shoestringand I hear about it.
I think it's wanting to really start offwell,
wanting to have a strong brandto begin with
(10:44):
and really wanting to invest in the careprovided as well as to carers.
I hope to to then find as well.
So so it was also preparation work,
which for me is a long time,but it did go really quickly.
T Was that a difficult decision
and the end or straightforwardor how would you characterise it?
(11:06):
I would say it was difficultin terms of taking that leg, but
once I felt committed to it, it was justsomething I could not not do in a sense.
So it was I think it was just I feltthe feeling was so overwhelmingly strong
to go off and do that,I just couldn't do it really.
(11:27):
And, and, and that's whyI think sometimes, you know,
I think she is like,I perhaps wasn't the right time for me.
That's when I was thinking about actuallynow it was
and I think it was alsogetting to a point in my role
managing a social
work team and realising that,you know, things don't really change.
The issues are the same issues.
And even as I progressed,you know, I'm not really missing anything
(11:49):
by going off and and doing something elseand just giving it a go.
So even if I came back in five, ten years,I don't really think much
would have changedwithin statutory adult social care.
And that's because I speak to peoplewho have started,
you know, worked perhaps ten yearsprior to me, 20th prior to me.
(12:09):
And they will say, yeah,these are the same issues
that I've experienced sort of ten, 15,20 years later.
So I coming back to that point,
you know,well, we're interested in in your story
and what's happened this yearand but I guess what I'm also thinking
and it's interesting to hear from youabout how that reflects the wider
(12:32):
the wider care system,the wider social care sector, if you like.
And so would you say thatin terms of your experience
making this decision and your experienceworking in this statutory system,
what you're mentioning problemsand things?
And I think that we know,
you know, you've touched uponthings like staffing, care quality,
(12:55):
but do you think there's anythingin terms of your experience here
and you're making this decision,you're leaving?
Is there anything you think that you knowcould be learnt from
from your experienceabout this statutory system?
Yeah, I do.
I do, because I think I think it's it'sreally difficult as well because I think,
you know, especially in terms of socialwork people because they go to university,
(13:18):
they learn about social work valueswhich are just general social work values.
And then I think they even go and workfor a statutory social work team
and be allowed to implement those viewsas they and during their studies.
And actually,you know, it doesn't really work
like in statutoryadult social care, you know, often funding
(13:43):
is extremely important and
yes, values are key, but
it is far distant because I thinkwe're often telling the team
if example, an idea as to how to meeta particular client's needs
may be effective if it doesn't fallwithin the the, you know,
(14:03):
the funding expectationsand it may not pass through.
So I think for a lot of social workerswho come out thinking
that they're going to make a difference,it's going to be positive.
It can kind of leave themfeeling a little bit,
you know, disillusioned and,you know, questioning actually why
if they come into this professionand, you know,
(14:23):
it wasn't their expectation that they weregoing to act as gatekeepers,
which again, is is part of the role.
So I think is definitely gettingthat that balance right, too.
In terms of
performance, you know, course,we're going out where
assessing individuals,you know, it's it's hard to measure yet.
(14:45):
I think from a senior managementperspective, it's always it's
a lot about the numbers and I understandthat, you know, numbers are important,
but actually they don't really capturethe full work of what social workers do.
And again, in terms of feeling valued,it's it's really difficult.
It's really difficult to say to a team,
yes, you're doing well,but actually the numbers don't stack up.
(15:08):
That I think I think there's a lotI think it's it's it's really difficult,
I think even from a local authority'sperspective to do very much about it
takes I think of coursein terms of funding investment,
again turnoverand that's just not turnover in terms of
the team, but there's also turnoverin terms of senior management,
(15:31):
which again often impactswhat the vision is,
which as middle managerswe're having to implement within the team.
And that's just such thatso many different
other groupsthat you have to also kind of work with.
But the NHS, you know, building thoserelationships in theory should be fine.
(15:53):
Actually in practice, really challenginga part of that would make
the social workers job a lot easier,a lot more manageable.
So yes, I think I think that there is
there is a lot I think in terms of what's
real estate is I think it's another.
(16:13):
E. And that promoter.
Score sends out a lot of that
in terms of what practically could changewould be things like managing expectation
of how social workersand maybe a broader system understanding.
Net. Yeah, that's it.
I definitely think managingthe expectations of social workers
(16:35):
and in terms of,
you know, their expectations of the role
and also the expectations of themto within.
yeah,you know, it's not just about going out
and having those discussions with peopleand just giving them what they want.
It has to be within within the framework,within the policies and
and processes of that,particularly local authority
(16:58):
which I find social workersdo struggle with because sometimes
they conflict with their valuesand we can see that,
but we can't really do andwe can't really do very much about that.
And, you know, really good social workers
want to continue workingand promoting the values
in a sense, from a local authorityperspective, you know, limited resources.
(17:23):
We're sometimes
expecting bodies to a degreeto be compromised at times.
It agency or for funding to override
certain values or, you know,well in terms of, you know,
costings of packages of careand things like that.
(17:43):
So it sounds like there's there's issuesthere or soft constraint and lack or yeah,
lack of flexibilityin the statutory system,
obvious questions around fundingand that and it sounds like
also that you mentionedthat the idea of you
having a bit more controlin terms of your own
(18:04):
yourself and your own workand I guess what you're able to do.
So thinking about the agency,what would you say
your aims are for the agency and the workthat the agency is going to do?
So I really want
to, in my own right,you know, elevate home care.
You know, I think home care shouldn'tjust be about, you know, the task at hand
(18:28):
and going in and supporting somebodywith just getting most interested.
And you go,I think it should be more about really,
you know, building that relationshipwith our clients, but also looking at ways
in which we can bring,you know, fulfilment and, and,
you know, helping our clientsfeel maybe content day today, you know,
(18:50):
just just contributing to their overallhappiness
is what I hope to achieve.
And, and in terms of having a care agencywho truly values
the care of us, who doesn't just see usas just the carer or anything like that.
So, you know, kind of tryingto create that family feel where we don't
(19:11):
just say that we value our carers,but we share in practice as well.
And even if it's about supporting carersto go on to
and do other call otheryou know, and it's not just,
you know, going on to do courses,but even it's just to go and see other
jobs, you know,we're fully equipping them in that sense.
(19:31):
We're fully investing in them
not just for our own benefitbut also for the last to.
So I think it's just changingand hopefully
in my own way,changing the perception of home care.
I think that isand people in that in in the community
who continue to struggle day to day
(19:52):
because they don't trust by this.
And I think that's that's a real shame.
So it is definitely workingon that trust element.
And hopefully I aim to do thatby showing that I don't overprescribe
and also with my knowledgeof working within a local authority.
I feel I can work in a strengths based waybut in a genuine way.
(20:14):
So for example, if I went out to assess
an individual
and they thought I needed some supportwith their mobility
and actually what they might needis an established occupational therapist
for and the appropriate equipmentin their house.
So they might actually needsomeone in their home.
So looking at it from that perspective,at the same time
(20:37):
knowing that that benefits thatand the individual T
so so that's yeah that's, that's the hope
and you knowreally just setting an example.
So it's going to be hands on.
I'm going to be doing aand you know, if I can't do it
then I wouldn'twant to expect anybody else to
(20:59):
say that.
But then also setting the standards highwithin the care agency in the sense
that, yes, we do want to look afterour care at St Thomas standards so high.
Is it just about going in and doing simplywhat's on the care?
You know, and we do want peoplewho are willing to go that extra mile.
(21:19):
Thanks.
That was really fascinating answer and
this can have so much to come back onone of the things I tell that
I was really interestedthat the fact that you said that
you're happier, you'reyou're looking at almost encouraging
workersto think about going on to other jobs.
You know, there's obviously this equipment
(21:42):
and there's really attentionissues in the sector.
And so you kind of the natural response tothat would be, well,
we want people to stay.
We want people to stay with us.
You you're almost saying whyactually, it's more important
that, yes, workers themselvesin their own, you know, their careers
(22:02):
and their progressionand their development, I guess.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
And I do think that's important
because, of course, we want canvasto stay on with us and to, you know,
that's that'swhat the business is reliant on,
you know, people staying withyou feel like.
Yes. And have
but then I think actually I thinkit's about what we can get as a business.
So, you know what?
(22:22):
People will stay with usif we treat people well,
if we look after them,if we make them friendly,
if there's something in it for them.
But I think wealso need to make sure from off the air,
if we want that,we need to be willing to invest in people.
So I think, for example, one of the groupsI'm hoping to target will be students.
And even if we are able to securestudents, so say two years or three years
(22:48):
and they go on to the massesor they go into other industries
actually because of their experienceor within the agency,
they may be to go and share the wordwith with other potential students.
So it's kind of thinking, yes,they may go on.
I'm sure other people will come inbecause of
the culture that we had built,which isn't just about,
(23:11):
you know, of course,if we can grow you, that's brilliant.
But if it means we can.
Be. Selling,you can go on to other job models
or other interests,then we want to be able to do that too,
is ensuring, you know, we'reinvesting in people and not just for us.
Yes, I think
that will probably come back to us,but it's also for the individual, too.
(23:35):
Yeah, That said, that's really interestingand and it's refreshing as well to
to Kenny here and because they can haveI think one of the things that you hear on
the flip side is, you know, you mentionedabout the idea of investing in people.
But I think the kind of flip sideargument is, why?
You know, why would I spend all this timeand this energy and this money
(23:57):
investing in someone for them to
then just leave, you know?
But it's refreshing to hear thatyou think you're obviously thinking about
the you're thinking about the wider careand the health care system,
but you're also thinkingand that and I guess in
in a broader societal sense as well.
(24:18):
Yeah, that's it I think. Yeah, Yeah.
Looking at the bigger picture of,you know,
we're really investing in people,
but it's morejust because we want them to stay or,
you know, if they don't stay with us,
they have to pay backa certain amount of money.
I think actually,
you know, that sends out a message,you know, what we may think about
carers in general when actuallyif they choose this type of care,
(24:39):
the typical individual who becomes a carer
probably isn't choosing toto just go from agency to agency
would probably like to supportthe same people day in, day out.
You know, that's probably what a typicalsomeone who chooses to be a carer
would appreciate.
So I think if, for example,we had an A low retention,
(25:05):
then I would be questioning our practice.
That'ssomething that I would be looking at
internallyrather than thinking it's a camera issue.
And just to there's, there'slots of things, as I say in that.
And the question I ask you about the hemsare so much I could ask you about that.
The other thing I want to just askyou about the you mentioned there was
(25:27):
and the idea about people'sperceptions of home care.
So you mentionedyou mentioned this kind of
this idea of therebeing a lack of trust in home care.
And that trustobviously is on a kind of interpersonal
level, is very important and careAnd isn't it care work
if you're if you're supportingcaring for someone, trust is very
(25:49):
important in that interpersonal level. But
what makes
you say that there's a lack of trustand that's a perception.
Have you got any examples?
Are you from your take?
Yeah, yeah, I do, Yeah.
And so, you know,and this is speaking to individuals
I spoke toand just just in passing a lady who said
(26:09):
her parentslive in their eighties or late eighties
and they're struggling at home togetherand the reason why they don't have care
is because they just don't trust,
they don't trust that they willbe supported in the way that they want.
And also, you know, through my workas a social worker, as a team manager,
you know, frequently hearing complaints
(26:32):
about a commission care provider,
if it's just around the quality of care,if it's even around feeding,
fearful of of carers, you know, feelinglike they can't say what they want,
you know, fearing repercussion
even from that particular careror from that care provider.
And hearing that,you know, on a on a regular basis.
(26:53):
So is that the norm in the areathat I operated example
that commission can providethat it had a nickname in that area
and it wasn't a positive, it wasn't,it was a very negative nickname.
Apparently all the residents
would define that provider by.
But then knowing thatif they didn't accept that,
(27:15):
they may have to pay it a bit more.
So, you know, people weren't necessarilybeing provided with that choice to seek
support that they would be happy with.
And, you know, we know, again,word of mouth, a lot of mouth in terms of
if it's a good provider,word of mouth as well, if it's not a very
(27:36):
good provider to say yes.
I thinkkind of in terms of anecdotal evidence,
just from what I've,you know, conversations I've had of people
and also with families,I've been clients themselves,
there's often a hesitationto have I'm okay.
(27:56):
And so one of the other things therethat you say, which is about staff,
but I suppose in one and certainly
a lot of the research that we do inthe centre
is as conscious of the ideaof the quality of the work.
The job quality for care workers is veryclosely linked to the quality of care.
(28:17):
See, you said thatand we wanted to set standards.
You wanted there to be standardsfor your care workers
to to work by, to abide by, I guess.
But how do you mean?
How do you how do you plan to go about
meeting those standardsand maintaining those standards?
So I think, you know, everythingI'm hopeful is, you know, aspirational.
(28:41):
And I think I'll be committedto continuously improving throughout.
I say knowing thatwe can always get better
and that that'salways going to be the aim.
You know, for me personally,it would be offering that
high quality care will always be dependingon that person that you're supporting.
You know, it's about getting to knowthe individual, their likes and, you know,
(29:05):
and just communicating with themon a level that they're happy with.
So again, it's listening to them
and not putting your own views onto themor your own expectations.
But that'swhat I'm hoping to start off with.
But then also kind of noting it down.
So then it's something that I can pass onto other carers,
(29:25):
you know, in a sense provide a script.
So it's kind of,
you know, if I go into somebody's house,you might ask them to take your shoes off.
Yeah, these are the sorts of things
that you think everyone would ask,but actually doesn't always happen.
And I went to go and see
a potential client last weekand that was one of the questions I asked.
And she said, I think youyou know, no one has asked that before
(29:47):
and you just think it's just havingthat building, that relationship.
I think, you know, certainly expectations,but I think it's kind of
recording this informationand not in the sense of a script
where people were still very wedded
in that I can't, you know,put my own style on there.
But I think it would be okay,this is what you do
when you go into somebody's house.
(30:08):
This is what you dowhen you carry out an assessment.
So then people understandthat this is the expectation
and it isn't just youcarry out an assessment, but this is how
you or these are the questions or,you know, this is the information we need.
So it's been through the specific way thatbut making sure
it's information that I canthen share with potential carers
(30:30):
with a potential managercoming in, for example.
Thank you very much.
So in all, before we before we come tothe end, just I'd play to rewind
a little bit and talk about your ownbiography, your own experiences
of the care work environment, I guess.
So you initiallyyou said that your mother,
your mother was a care worker.
(30:52):
Can you tell me a bit about your mothercare work and so of her
and to how she became a care workerAnd I guess.
Yeah, definitely so.
My mum,she lived in the UK in the late eighties
and I think in the mid ninetiesand got into care work
and I think it was just one of those jobsat the time, just very easy to get
(31:17):
and she could get work locally as welland she didn't need to have a card,
She could go around and visitand pay her clients and come back home.
So you know, it is quite a timeit was a job that she could do
around the children.
And actuallyshe used to take me along with her as well
to visit to, you know,
(31:39):
go and see some of her clientswho you lacked children to.
And and I guess that was essentiallymy first flavour of homecare.
So seeing my mum do it. Yeah.
And then also hearingabout her experiences in the job too.
So she did Home Care for Beauonly about 15 years.
(32:00):
And then she went into Supported Living,which is where struck me is as a carer to.
And so how long as your mum workedand and social care until then.
So I would say she'sprobably between 25 to 30 as she has.
Yeah.
So, so for the majority of her,
of her working career in the UK.
(32:22):
Okay. And so you said that
you sometimes accompanied
your motherwhen on our, on our home carers as well.
What was that like for you,What were your memories of that.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I mean I was, I was never supposed toand I don't think, you know,
if something was anythingthat was allowed at the time, but,
(32:43):
and someone would take meto go and see her and clients.
So some of the ones who were more able
and I would let she just go with her,I wouldn't be do any of the work.
I would just sit and have a chator listen, interact with the clients.
I think I must have been about only ten,
(33:03):
maybe 12 or 13 around that ageand that that's it.
But it was very interestingbecause I would just upset
that my mum was staring forfor the clients
and I wasn't at the time it seemed happyif my mum was dying and all, you know,
little things that perhaps other carersbeing there or other individuals
(33:24):
and potentially not listening to whatthe client may have wanted in that moment,
just recognising that thinkbecause that thing is sincere.
I think, you know, lots of peopleare carers and might not next shared
those values in listeningto the individual that they're supporting.
So yeah, sosometimes I did, did see that too.
(33:45):
And so then you told me that this,
this can have influenced your ideato think about doing
care yourself, but initiallyyour mother was a bit resistant.
Yeah, that's right.
So I think when I turned 60,
I was, you know, desperateto work, desperate to get a job.
And I thought, actually, home care,I think I really enjoy that.
(34:07):
It's like I can goand, you know, support people at home
and also just listen to that beingI do like listening to people's stories.
I like having,you know, conversations with people.
So I thought it would be perfect.
But my mum,she was just so dead against it.
And she, she just thought,no way, you can't deny you can't do it.
(34:28):
I think for her I think she just is more,you know, I had to do this
and because I've come to this country,that's a very limited education
and limited opportunities inhave you say for her it is more
you know, she didn't want to see her ownchildren perhaps go down that route.
I think that was herand her perception and fair.
(34:52):
I think I do rememberthe time when I was Nikki.
I think you did have to have
a degree of experience as forwardif you had to have about a year or two.
So this was in, I would say, the mid 2000.
So around the 2004, 2005,
you know, you had to have experience.
(35:13):
You know, I think things have changed
since then. But, you know,I think you did have to.
But this year will take experiencebut yeah know so it is it's interesting
I think even perception of care amongst
those who are carers T
you know so so it's not just I guess
people are outside to perceive itas a low status
(35:35):
role for peoplein, in, in the job as well.
And Sue, you said the yearyour mother came and then in the 1980s
and that was from Dallas,from Nigeria that came
to her to the UK.
Okay.
And, and she started and so there wasthere was an issue there that,
(35:55):
that she maybe there weren'tso many opportunities
or had a care was one of the
main opportunitiesfor someone in her position at that time.
Yeah.
That to to to get to get a job.Yeah. Yeah.
Got thereand you know sometimes these are,
you know things perhapspeople just assume, you know,
I don't know how hard my mum triedto do other interests and things.
(36:21):
I think from her view, you know, coming in
as an immigrant and you know, not
with much and financial backthen, not much education at all.
You know, my mum's level of English is,you know, yes,
she can speak English,she can learn English to a basic level.
So I think perhaps
(36:42):
she felt that
that this was or this was this wasthis was a job
she could get and that that was it.
So, you know, if, for example,I ever asked her
mum, did you ever want to progressin, in, in your, in your role,
she would perhaps respond, no,that's not really for people like me.
She simply also for people like herto even try
(37:04):
and progressin her current in in her role.
And so you you mentioned theyou know, when you were 16, you were
you saw it leaked to the what myselfyour mother was just
I think you said to methat you entered that retail
and then you've you know, you've studiedso you studied at Birmingham University,
but then you I guess you've comeyou've come back to
(37:27):
you come by road to social care.
You know, you've you've got your degreein international studies with economics.
You said it had civilservice experience as well.
So why do you think why do you thinkyou've kept kept coming back, I guess, to.
Yeah.
And I just think I just I really do enjoyworking with people directly,
(37:48):
with people.
I thinkI love having that interaction and,
and I've always wanted to work with peoplewho were disadvantaged in society.
And I think that's probablyjust in my background, you know,
and it kind of coming from a disadvantagedarea and where where I grew up.
So I've always been quite passionateabout that.
(38:08):
And I think when I finished from uni
I did and I did do an internshipwith the Civil Service and I felt,
you know, policy again, you know, you'renot really getting that interaction,
that direct contact with the people
wanting to have that positive impact with.
And then I did look at charitiesand I think that was around
2008, 2009 when I graduated,
(38:33):
and I think that wasthe time of my funding was being
I did some work with a refugee council,which I absolutely loved, but
in funding was being cut, it's quite clearpeople were really fearful,
you know, aroundwhat jobs they were going to get.
And I think that was the time.
And I thought, well, you know, adultsocial care, becoming the social worker,
working with adults specifically,
(38:54):
I thought, you know, why a you know,why not give that if that will go?
I think my fear was always working aroundstatutory because,
you know, I was always quite used to
being the person working for charitiesand watching those letters,
urging housing, urging social servicesto do more things.
Going on to the other side where,you know, we're now also at the gate.
(39:17):
Keep in a sense, that was the
that was the partI thought I would find most challenging.
Yeah.
So that starts I think it's it'smore having that direct interaction
with and with the clientsthat I'd want to work with.
Okay, Thanks so much.
That's another really interesting.
(39:38):
And so, you know,there's this there's obviously this bigger
in there'sthis whole bigger picture around care.
But, you know, obviously it's that kind of
interpersonal interactionthat means a lot to you.
And and it sounds like that'sgoing to be really important to you.
And to your agencyand the work of your agency.
So just want to ask a final questionbefore we wrap things up.
(40:02):
And that again and again is goodand maybe it's come back again.
That's good.
And the bigger thing about,you know, so and the Centre for Care
and the research I'm doingis about the care workforce in the UK.
And so I'd just like to askyour kind of views
and not in generalabout the future of the care workforce.
Do you see any cause for optimism?
(40:22):
It's quite a bleak picture termsas things like the numbers.
Yeah, I mean I,I think it's such a, it's a difficult one
and it will be a huge challenge, I think.
Chancellor optimism.
I think there is possibility for optimism.
But I think as you know from a careprovider now, from from that perspective,
(40:42):
I think it's about looking internally nowand reviewing
how we value our carersand whether or not we really do.
So I think, you know,I don't think the actual job itself
is the reason why,but I think it's quite easy to say,
well carvers don't want you know,no one wants to do the job, but I actually
(41:04):
think it's reviewing our own practicesas a care provider and ensuring that well,
or really thinking aboutwhat are we doing to
to make it a comfortable and enjoyable
and viable job for people
rather than just expecting carersto accept how it is.
So I think the owners should be put more
(41:26):
so on us as individual care providers,see what we can do.
And I think if we and I think that's why,
you know, it causes the private sectorand that's why it's difficult.
I think there does need to be morejoined up work with the local authority.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's it's a difficult one,but I think that it does
(41:47):
need to be more joined upif we do want to see difference.
I think the Government need to prioritisethe adult social care agenda,
but at the same time I think like,you know, care providers
can't just rely on the government.
I think we need to be doing more eithercollectively
and and individually to
(42:08):
that because, you know, I think
in terms of going out into people's homes,especially home care,
I don't thinkI think people may also have an issue
with the with the environmentthat they're working in, with the stress,
with the pressuresrather than the actual job itself.
You know,
yes, there are parts of it which arechallenging, but I think it's more
the environment in which they work in thatthat's difficult and it could be
(42:32):
expectation that they have to gosee ten clients in one day
or expectation of picking up and shiftsat the last minute every day.
Those are the sorts of thingswhich turning people away
in and out, they can be unavoidable.
But that's what I think we need to beworking on, so that when people do come
in, those aren't the parts that thatthat turn people away.
(42:53):
Thank you very much for that.
And Cecilia, it's very interesting
point in which to
finish so and thank youthank you very much
for four more episodesand the Care Matters series
and to learn more about the Centrefor Care, please follow the link
in the episode descriptionfor a website and social media channels.
(43:17):
All that remains for me to dois to thank our guest, Celia Obama again.
So thank you very much, Celia.
Thank you.
And thank you for listening. Thank you.
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and CIRCLE,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series, our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and to those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care
(00:27):
as we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Hello
and welcome to Care Matters,The podcast from the Economic
and Social Research Council’sCentre for Care
(00:48):
and the University of Sheffield’sCIRCLE Research Centre.
My name is Duncan Fisherand I am a research
associate at the Centre for Care.
We are delighted towelcome Suliyat O’Balagun as our guest,
and in this episodewe will discuss Suliyat's
current work,starting a new home care agency
(01:09):
and her longerterm experiences in adult social care.
The discussion sits in
the context of workforce issuesand pressures.
I will include topicssuch as sustainability,
recruitment and retention
values and workplace culture
and migration and individual careBiographies.
(01:31):
Welcome to Care Matters, SuliyatThank you Duncan for having me.
Suliyat O'Balagunis the registered manager of This is Home
Care, a domiciliary care agencythat she started
earlier in 2023.
The agency is basedin the south of England
and Buckinghamshire and coversparts of Herefordshire, too.
(01:55):
Suliyat as a qualified social worker
and gained her MA from Brunel University.
She also holds a B.A.
in international studies with economicsfrom the University of Birmingham.
Before starting the agency,
Suliyat spent a decade in social work,
first in hospital discharge,and then managing a local authority team,
(02:19):
supporting adults over the age of 18with physical learning
disabilitiesand difficulties and mental health issues.
She left the post to start the agencyand the decision to do so,
and the motivations and process behindthe change are a key point of discussion.
And this episode, again, a warmwelcome to you Suliyat.
(02:43):
Thank you, Duncan.
It's a pleasure.
So, Suliyat if you've recently set up youryour own home
care agency, can you just tell usa little bit about that?
Yes, that's right.
So the care agency is calledThis is Home Care,
and we received our CQC registrationor made the ninth.
(03:04):
And so I actually initially submittedthe registration form in February (2023).
So it took approximately 12 weeks.
So and, you know, of course,it would have taken lots of research
in orderto prepare for the registration form.
So I worked in active social servicesfor the past ten years.
(03:26):
And so far with it, yes, I did workin hospital and social work as I knew
when I moved into the community that Ithen was exposed
to home care providersand also the quality,
or should I say lack of quality.
And I think it was upon realisingthat actually this was the norm
(03:47):
for the clients that we were supportingin the local authority.
And although from a local authorityperspective, we did try to,
you know, implementchange and work with the providers
as there wasn't very much we could do.
So it was a case of,you know, telling clients that actually
there is really isn't really much, therereally isn't much
(04:08):
alternatives in, in the community.
And then just seeing the gapin the market, just for a provider
who would be committedto high quality care.
Thank you.
So you mentioned the CQCSo that's the Care Quality
Commission registration.
If mentioned issuesthere around care quality and also
(04:31):
and the gap in the market, sounds likethere were some of the key the key things.
And so the current state of playis that you've received your registration.
And what's happening now in terms of thethe agency.
Yeah.
So my my intentionbecause I think it's really important
that I understandhow care works, you know, on the ground.
(04:51):
So I do have a background in social workand I have work as a support worker.
I do want to also start by supporting themy clients to begin with.
So then I start to set the standard.
So I am at the momentlooking at and sourcing
from some clients privatelywhere I will act as their main carer.
(05:13):
I will get to know them,I will set the standard
and then hopefully recruitsomebody else to take over from me.
So I'm really taking on a hands onapproach, also wanting to take it slowly.
So although I know,I mean the demand is out there,
I think from my view it's about,you know, recognising
of course it's a businessbut making sure I'm doing what's necessary
(05:38):
to make it workand in the long term as well.
And so at that point, can you just maybecan you maybe
just for the benefit of our audience,can you just say
a little bit about the setting?
Yes, it's it'sa symptom of salary homecare provider.
So we'll be supporting adultswho have learning
physical, mentalhealth and issues as well.
(06:01):
And essentially it's to facilitateindividuals to remain at home
so that could be supporting themwith their personal care, meal
preparation, administering medication,as well as access in the community.
At the same time, we also want to focus onnot just the needs of a
so is also focusing on on their wants too.
(06:23):
So I strongly believe that you know thatdespite
all, you know health conditions
and disabilities, you can always
you can lead a fulfilling life,even if it's in the small things.
I think that's that's an aspectthat I really want to focus on.
So it's supporting individualsto lead a fulfilling life.
(06:43):
So in terms of this move,then to start your agency
and to leave your previous job, I guess
there's two things that have happenedthere.
And firstly, you talked a little bitabout your experience
as a social workerand working into local authority
and the experience they gave you,But also helped you to see, you know,
what was going on, I guess, beyondjust working and social work.
(07:07):
So what would you sayshaped ultimately shaped your decision
to leave the local authoritysocial work role?
Yeah, so so I think there's twodifferent levels to this.
I think there'sdefinitely a personal level.
So I think I would saysay about four years ago
I realised and you know,I did want to progress within social work.
(07:30):
So I was committedto, you know, climbing that ladder and,
you know,
going for the more senior positionsand really putting myself out there.
And, you know,through personal development, I understood
the importance of facing your fears,challenging your style, and,
you know, just seeing opportunitieswhere perhaps others
may notand being willing to take the risk.
(07:53):
So think, of course, seeing and workingvery closely with home care providers.
It was the understandingactually that is available opportunity
plus knowingif you can do a good job of it,
then it's it's all set to bea really rewarding industry to work in.
So I think that was one.
And then I think ultimately two years agoI did get a promotion
(08:16):
in my role and yes,it was really exciting.
And you know, the fact
that it was only working as a managerwithin the social work team,
but then at the same timeit's the acknowledgement to actually,
you know, it's like we were alwaysfirefighting all the time,
you know, shortage of staff,
shortage of fundingand not really been able to meet the care
(08:37):
and support needs of our residentsin the way that we would like.
For me, it became much bigger.
You know, that drive to goand start my own career
to see wherehopefully I can have that level of control
around the supportI can provide people in the community.
You know, I can drive that vision.
And for me, I thought that that'swhere the real rewarding work
(09:01):
would be ratherthan in the statutory setting.
I worked in a silo. And so
it sounds like that was a decisionmaybe that you
that is something you've been thinkingabout over a longer period of time,
really, and it's has taken a whileto kind of get to this point.
(09:22):
Yeah.
But that, that that's whyI think, you know, it's always very scary
to leave a secured job and
and it's a jobthat at the time I did enjoy.
So I did see value in it.
I did, you know, enjoy going out,supporting my clients
as best as I couldand eventually supporting a team.
(09:42):
I did enjoy that.
However, at the same time,I just had this real desire
to go and do something different.
And I think two years agowhen I did receive the promotion,
at one pointI thought, well, maybe I would stay
and I would continueto try and climb the ladder.
But then I thought, actually,you know, that's always going to be bad.
(10:03):
Why not go off,
do somethinga little bit out of my comfort zone
and see where that takes me and realisingthat actually, you know, the beef
industry is all basedon, you know, areas are quite linked.
So even if perhaps Ithen if it doesn't work out
partying,I can see I can always go back to.
(10:24):
So it was, it was, it did take a long timeand, and also I did
want to ensureI had, you know, enough savings as well.
So I think I know you can start
I'm career agency on a shoestringand I hear about it.
I think it's wanting to really start offwell,
wanting to have a strong brandto begin with
(10:44):
and really wanting to invest in the careprovided as well as to carers.
I hope to to then find as well.
So so it was also preparation work,
which for me is a long time,but it did go really quickly.
T Was that a difficult decision
and the end or straightforwardor how would you characterise it?
(11:06):
I would say it was difficultin terms of taking that leg, but
once I felt committed to it, it was justsomething I could not not do in a sense.
So it was I think it was just I feltthe feeling was so overwhelmingly strong
to go off and do that,I just couldn't do it really.
(11:27):
And, and, and that's whyI think sometimes, you know,
I think she is like,I perhaps wasn't the right time for me.
That's when I was thinking about actuallynow it was
and I think it was alsogetting to a point in my role
managing a social
work team and realising that,you know, things don't really change.
The issues are the same issues.
And even as I progressed,you know, I'm not really missing anything
(11:49):
by going off and and doing something elseand just giving it a go.
So even if I came back in five, ten years,I don't really think much
would have changedwithin statutory adult social care.
And that's because I speak to peoplewho have started,
you know, worked perhaps ten yearsprior to me, 20th prior to me.
(12:09):
And they will say, yeah,these are the same issues
that I've experienced sort of ten, 15,20 years later.
So I coming back to that point,
you know,well, we're interested in in your story
and what's happened this yearand but I guess what I'm also thinking
and it's interesting to hear from youabout how that reflects the wider
(12:32):
the wider care system,the wider social care sector, if you like.
And so would you say thatin terms of your experience
making this decision and your experienceworking in this statutory system,
what you're mentioning problemsand things?
And I think that we know,
you know, you've touched uponthings like staffing, care quality,
(12:55):
but do you think there's anythingin terms of your experience here
and you're making this decision,you're leaving?
Is there anything you think that you knowcould be learnt from
from your experienceabout this statutory system?
Yeah, I do.
I do, because I think I think it's it'sreally difficult as well because I think,
you know, especially in terms of socialwork people because they go to university,
(13:18):
they learn about social work valueswhich are just general social work values.
And then I think they even go and workfor a statutory social work team
and be allowed to implement those viewsas they and during their studies.
And actually,you know, it doesn't really work
like in statutoryadult social care, you know, often funding
(13:43):
is extremely important and
yes, values are key, but
it is far distant because I thinkwe're often telling the team
if example, an idea as to how to meeta particular client's needs
may be effective if it doesn't fallwithin the the, you know,
(14:03):
the funding expectationsand it may not pass through.
So I think for a lot of social workerswho come out thinking
that they're going to make a difference,it's going to be positive.
It can kind of leave themfeeling a little bit,
you know, disillusioned and,you know, questioning actually why
if they come into this professionand, you know,
(14:23):
it wasn't their expectation that they weregoing to act as gatekeepers,
which again, is is part of the role.
So I think is definitely gettingthat that balance right, too.
In terms of
performance, you know, course,we're going out where
assessing individuals,you know, it's it's hard to measure yet.
(14:45):
I think from a senior managementperspective, it's always it's
a lot about the numbers and I understandthat, you know, numbers are important,
but actually they don't really capturethe full work of what social workers do.
And again, in terms of feeling valued,it's it's really difficult.
It's really difficult to say to a team,
yes, you're doing well,but actually the numbers don't stack up.
(15:08):
That I think I think there's a lotI think it's it's it's really difficult,
I think even from a local authority'sperspective to do very much about it
takes I think of coursein terms of funding investment,
again turnoverand that's just not turnover in terms of
the team, but there's also turnoverin terms of senior management,
(15:31):
which again often impactswhat the vision is,
which as middle managerswe're having to implement within the team.
And that's just such thatso many different
other groupsthat you have to also kind of work with.
But the NHS, you know, building thoserelationships in theory should be fine.
(15:53):
Actually in practice, really challenginga part of that would make
the social workers job a lot easier,a lot more manageable.
So yes, I think I think that there is
there is a lot I think in terms of what's
real estate is I think it's another.
(16:13):
E. And that promoter.
Score sends out a lot of that
in terms of what practically could changewould be things like managing expectation
of how social workersand maybe a broader system understanding.
Net. Yeah, that's it.
I definitely think managingthe expectations of social workers
(16:35):
and in terms of,
you know, their expectations of the role
and also the expectations of themto within.
yeah,you know, it's not just about going out
and having those discussions with peopleand just giving them what they want.
It has to be within within the framework,within the policies and
and processes of that,particularly local authority
(16:58):
which I find social workersdo struggle with because sometimes
they conflict with their valuesand we can see that,
but we can't really do andwe can't really do very much about that.
And, you know, really good social workers
want to continue workingand promoting the values
in a sense, from a local authorityperspective, you know, limited resources.
(17:23):
We're sometimes
expecting bodies to a degreeto be compromised at times.
It agency or for funding to override
certain values or, you know,well in terms of, you know,
costings of packages of careand things like that.
(17:43):
So it sounds like there's there's issuesthere or soft constraint and lack or yeah,
lack of flexibilityin the statutory system,
obvious questions around fundingand that and it sounds like
also that you mentionedthat the idea of you
having a bit more controlin terms of your own
(18:04):
yourself and your own workand I guess what you're able to do.
So thinking about the agency,what would you say
your aims are for the agency and the workthat the agency is going to do?
So I really want
to, in my own right,you know, elevate home care.
You know, I think home care shouldn'tjust be about, you know, the task at hand
(18:28):
and going in and supporting somebodywith just getting most interested.
And you go,I think it should be more about really,
you know, building that relationshipwith our clients, but also looking at ways
in which we can bring,you know, fulfilment and, and,
you know, helping our clientsfeel maybe content day today, you know,
(18:50):
just just contributing to their overallhappiness
is what I hope to achieve.
And, and in terms of having a care agencywho truly values
the care of us, who doesn't just see usas just the carer or anything like that.
So, you know, kind of tryingto create that family feel where we don't
(19:11):
just say that we value our carers,but we share in practice as well.
And even if it's about supporting carersto go on to
and do other call otheryou know, and it's not just,
you know, going on to do courses,but even it's just to go and see other
jobs, you know,we're fully equipping them in that sense.
(19:31):
We're fully investing in them
not just for our own benefitbut also for the last to.
So I think it's just changingand hopefully
in my own way,changing the perception of home care.
I think that isand people in that in in the community
who continue to struggle day to day
(19:52):
because they don't trust by this.
And I think that's that's a real shame.
So it is definitely workingon that trust element.
And hopefully I aim to do thatby showing that I don't overprescribe
and also with my knowledgeof working within a local authority.
I feel I can work in a strengths based waybut in a genuine way.
(20:14):
So for example, if I went out to assess
an individual
and they thought I needed some supportwith their mobility
and actually what they might needis an established occupational therapist
for and the appropriate equipmentin their house.
So they might actually needsomeone in their home.
So looking at it from that perspective,at the same time
(20:37):
knowing that that benefits thatand the individual T
so so that's yeah that's, that's the hope
and you knowreally just setting an example.
So it's going to be hands on.
I'm going to be doing aand you know, if I can't do it
then I wouldn'twant to expect anybody else to
(20:59):
say that.
But then also setting the standards highwithin the care agency in the sense
that, yes, we do want to look afterour care at St Thomas standards so high.
Is it just about going in and doing simplywhat's on the care?
You know, and we do want peoplewho are willing to go that extra mile.
(21:19):
Thanks.
That was really fascinating answer and
this can have so much to come back onone of the things I tell that
I was really interestedthat the fact that you said that
you're happier, you'reyou're looking at almost encouraging
workersto think about going on to other jobs.
You know, there's obviously this equipment
(21:42):
and there's really attentionissues in the sector.
And so you kind of the natural response tothat would be, well,
we want people to stay.
We want people to stay with us.
You you're almost saying whyactually, it's more important
that, yes, workers themselvesin their own, you know, their careers
(22:02):
and their progressionand their development, I guess.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
And I do think that's important
because, of course, we want canvasto stay on with us and to, you know,
that's that'swhat the business is reliant on,
you know, people staying withyou feel like.
Yes. And have
but then I think actually I thinkit's about what we can get as a business.
So, you know what?
(22:22):
People will stay with usif we treat people well,
if we look after them,if we make them friendly,
if there's something in it for them.
But I think wealso need to make sure from off the air,
if we want that,we need to be willing to invest in people.
So I think, for example, one of the groupsI'm hoping to target will be students.
And even if we are able to securestudents, so say two years or three years
(22:48):
and they go on to the massesor they go into other industries
actually because of their experienceor within the agency,
they may be to go and share the wordwith with other potential students.
So it's kind of thinking, yes,they may go on.
I'm sure other people will come inbecause of
the culture that we had built,which isn't just about,
(23:11):
you know, of course,if we can grow you, that's brilliant.
But if it means we can.
Be. Selling,you can go on to other job models
or other interests,then we want to be able to do that too,
is ensuring, you know, we'reinvesting in people and not just for us.
Yes, I think
that will probably come back to us,but it's also for the individual, too.
(23:35):
Yeah, That said, that's really interestingand and it's refreshing as well to
to Kenny here and because they can haveI think one of the things that you hear on
the flip side is, you know, you mentionedabout the idea of investing in people.
But I think the kind of flip sideargument is, why?
You know, why would I spend all this timeand this energy and this money
(23:57):
investing in someone for them to
then just leave, you know?
But it's refreshing to hear thatyou think you're obviously thinking about
the you're thinking about the wider careand the health care system,
but you're also thinkingand that and I guess in
in a broader societal sense as well.
(24:18):
Yeah, that's it I think. Yeah, Yeah.
Looking at the bigger picture of,you know,
we're really investing in people,
but it's morejust because we want them to stay or,
you know, if they don't stay with us,
they have to pay backa certain amount of money.
I think actually,
you know, that sends out a message,you know, what we may think about
carers in general when actuallyif they choose this type of care,
(24:39):
the typical individual who becomes a carer
probably isn't choosing toto just go from agency to agency
would probably like to supportthe same people day in, day out.
You know, that's probably what a typicalsomeone who chooses to be a carer
would appreciate.
So I think if, for example,we had an A low retention,
(25:05):
then I would be questioning our practice.
That'ssomething that I would be looking at
internallyrather than thinking it's a camera issue.
And just to there's, there'slots of things, as I say in that.
And the question I ask you about the hemsare so much I could ask you about that.
The other thing I want to just askyou about the you mentioned there was
(25:27):
and the idea about people'sperceptions of home care.
So you mentionedyou mentioned this kind of
this idea of therebeing a lack of trust in home care.
And that trustobviously is on a kind of interpersonal
level, is very important and careAnd isn't it care work
if you're if you're supportingcaring for someone, trust is very
(25:49):
important in that interpersonal level. But
what makes
you say that there's a lack of trustand that's a perception.
Have you got any examples?
Are you from your take?
Yeah, yeah, I do, Yeah.
And so, you know,and this is speaking to individuals
I spoke toand just just in passing a lady who said
(26:09):
her parentslive in their eighties or late eighties
and they're struggling at home togetherand the reason why they don't have care
is because they just don't trust,
they don't trust that they willbe supported in the way that they want.
And also, you know, through my workas a social worker, as a team manager,
you know, frequently hearing complaints
(26:32):
about a commission care provider,
if it's just around the quality of care,if it's even around feeding,
fearful of of carers, you know, feelinglike they can't say what they want,
you know, fearing repercussion
even from that particular careror from that care provider.
And hearing that,you know, on a on a regular basis.
(26:53):
So is that the norm in the areathat I operated example
that commission can providethat it had a nickname in that area
and it wasn't a positive, it wasn't,it was a very negative nickname.
Apparently all the residents
would define that provider by.
But then knowing thatif they didn't accept that,
(27:15):
they may have to pay it a bit more.
So, you know, people weren't necessarilybeing provided with that choice to seek
support that they would be happy with.
And, you know, we know, again,word of mouth, a lot of mouth in terms of
if it's a good provider,word of mouth as well, if it's not a very
(27:36):
good provider to say yes.
I thinkkind of in terms of anecdotal evidence,
just from what I've,you know, conversations I've had of people
and also with families,I've been clients themselves,
there's often a hesitationto have I'm okay.
(27:56):
And so one of the other things therethat you say, which is about staff,
but I suppose in one and certainly
a lot of the research that we do inthe centre
is as conscious of the ideaof the quality of the work.
The job quality for care workers is veryclosely linked to the quality of care.
(28:17):
See, you said thatand we wanted to set standards.
You wanted there to be standardsfor your care workers
to to work by, to abide by, I guess.
But how do you mean?
How do you how do you plan to go about
meeting those standardsand maintaining those standards?
So I think, you know, everythingI'm hopeful is, you know, aspirational.
(28:41):
And I think I'll be committedto continuously improving throughout.
I say knowing thatwe can always get better
and that that'salways going to be the aim.
You know, for me personally,it would be offering that
high quality care will always be dependingon that person that you're supporting.
You know, it's about getting to knowthe individual, their likes and, you know,
(29:05):
and just communicating with themon a level that they're happy with.
So again, it's listening to them
and not putting your own views onto themor your own expectations.
But that'swhat I'm hoping to start off with.
But then also kind of noting it down.
So then it's something that I can pass onto other carers,
(29:25):
you know, in a sense provide a script.
So it's kind of,
you know, if I go into somebody's house,you might ask them to take your shoes off.
Yeah, these are the sorts of things
that you think everyone would ask,but actually doesn't always happen.
And I went to go and see
a potential client last weekand that was one of the questions I asked.
And she said, I think youyou know, no one has asked that before
(29:47):
and you just think it's just havingthat building, that relationship.
I think, you know, certainly expectations,but I think it's kind of
recording this informationand not in the sense of a script
where people were still very wedded
in that I can't, you know,put my own style on there.
But I think it would be okay,this is what you do
when you go into somebody's house.
(30:08):
This is what you dowhen you carry out an assessment.
So then people understandthat this is the expectation
and it isn't just youcarry out an assessment, but this is how
you or these are the questions or,you know, this is the information we need.
So it's been through the specific way thatbut making sure
it's information that I canthen share with potential carers
(30:30):
with a potential managercoming in, for example.
Thank you very much.
So in all, before we before we come tothe end, just I'd play to rewind
a little bit and talk about your ownbiography, your own experiences
of the care work environment, I guess.
So you initiallyyou said that your mother,
your mother was a care worker.
(30:52):
Can you tell me a bit about your mothercare work and so of her
and to how she became a care workerAnd I guess.
Yeah, definitely so.
My mum,she lived in the UK in the late eighties
and I think in the mid ninetiesand got into care work
and I think it was just one of those jobsat the time, just very easy to get
(31:17):
and she could get work locally as welland she didn't need to have a card,
She could go around and visitand pay her clients and come back home.
So you know, it is quite a timeit was a job that she could do
around the children.
And actuallyshe used to take me along with her as well
to visit to, you know,
(31:39):
go and see some of her clientswho you lacked children to.
And and I guess that was essentiallymy first flavour of homecare.
So seeing my mum do it. Yeah.
And then also hearingabout her experiences in the job too.
So she did Home Care for Beauonly about 15 years.
(32:00):
And then she went into Supported Living,which is where struck me is as a carer to.
And so how long as your mum workedand and social care until then.
So I would say she'sprobably between 25 to 30 as she has.
Yeah.
So, so for the majority of her,
of her working career in the UK.
(32:22):
Okay. And so you said that
you sometimes accompanied
your motherwhen on our, on our home carers as well.
What was that like for you,What were your memories of that.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I mean I was, I was never supposed toand I don't think, you know,
if something was anythingthat was allowed at the time, but,
(32:43):
and someone would take meto go and see her and clients.
So some of the ones who were more able
and I would let she just go with her,I wouldn't be do any of the work.
I would just sit and have a chator listen, interact with the clients.
I think I must have been about only ten,
(33:03):
maybe 12 or 13 around that ageand that that's it.
But it was very interestingbecause I would just upset
that my mum was staring forfor the clients
and I wasn't at the time it seemed happyif my mum was dying and all, you know,
little things that perhaps other carersbeing there or other individuals
(33:24):
and potentially not listening to whatthe client may have wanted in that moment,
just recognising that thinkbecause that thing is sincere.
I think, you know, lots of peopleare carers and might not next shared
those values in listeningto the individual that they're supporting.
So yeah, sosometimes I did, did see that too.
(33:45):
And so then you told me that this,
this can have influenced your ideato think about doing
care yourself, but initiallyyour mother was a bit resistant.
Yeah, that's right.
So I think when I turned 60,
I was, you know, desperateto work, desperate to get a job.
And I thought, actually, home care,I think I really enjoy that.
(34:07):
It's like I can goand, you know, support people at home
and also just listen to that beingI do like listening to people's stories.
I like having,you know, conversations with people.
So I thought it would be perfect.
But my mum,she was just so dead against it.
And she, she just thought,no way, you can't deny you can't do it.
(34:28):
I think for her I think she just is more,you know, I had to do this
and because I've come to this country,that's a very limited education
and limited opportunities inhave you say for her it is more
you know, she didn't want to see her ownchildren perhaps go down that route.
I think that was herand her perception and fair.
(34:52):
I think I do rememberthe time when I was Nikki.
I think you did have to have
a degree of experience as forwardif you had to have about a year or two.
So this was in, I would say, the mid 2000.
So around the 2004, 2005,
you know, you had to have experience.
(35:13):
You know, I think things have changed
since then. But, you know,I think you did have to.
But this year will take experiencebut yeah know so it is it's interesting
I think even perception of care amongst
those who are carers T
you know so so it's not just I guess
people are outside to perceive itas a low status
(35:35):
role for peoplein, in, in the job as well.
And Sue, you said the yearyour mother came and then in the 1980s
and that was from Dallas,from Nigeria that came
to her to the UK.
Okay.
And, and she started and so there wasthere was an issue there that,
(35:55):
that she maybe there weren'tso many opportunities
or had a care was one of the
main opportunitiesfor someone in her position at that time.
Yeah.
That to to to get to get a job.Yeah. Yeah.
Got thereand you know sometimes these are,
you know things perhapspeople just assume, you know,
I don't know how hard my mum triedto do other interests and things.
(36:21):
I think from her view, you know, coming in
as an immigrant and you know, not
with much and financial backthen, not much education at all.
You know, my mum's level of English is,you know, yes,
she can speak English,she can learn English to a basic level.
So I think perhaps
(36:42):
she felt that
that this was or this was this wasthis was a job
she could get and that that was it.
So, you know, if, for example,I ever asked her
mum, did you ever want to progressin, in, in your, in your role,
she would perhaps respond, no,that's not really for people like me.
She simply also for people like herto even try
(37:04):
and progressin her current in in her role.
And so you you mentioned theyou know, when you were 16, you were
you saw it leaked to the what myselfyour mother was just
I think you said to methat you entered that retail
and then you've you know, you've studiedso you studied at Birmingham University,
but then you I guess you've comeyou've come back to
(37:27):
you come by road to social care.
You know, you've you've got your degreein international studies with economics.
You said it had civilservice experience as well.
So why do you think why do you thinkyou've kept kept coming back, I guess, to.
Yeah.
And I just think I just I really do enjoyworking with people directly,
(37:48):
with people.
I thinkI love having that interaction and,
and I've always wanted to work with peoplewho were disadvantaged in society.
And I think that's probablyjust in my background, you know,
and it kind of coming from a disadvantagedarea and where where I grew up.
So I've always been quite passionateabout that.
(38:08):
And I think when I finished from uni
I did and I did do an internshipwith the Civil Service and I felt,
you know, policy again, you know, you'renot really getting that interaction,
that direct contact with the people
wanting to have that positive impact with.
And then I did look at charitiesand I think that was around
2008, 2009 when I graduated,
(38:33):
and I think that wasthe time of my funding was being
I did some work with a refugee council,which I absolutely loved, but
in funding was being cut, it's quite clearpeople were really fearful,
you know, aroundwhat jobs they were going to get.
And I think that was the time.
And I thought, well, you know, adultsocial care, becoming the social worker,
working with adults specifically,
(38:54):
I thought, you know, why a you know,why not give that if that will go?
I think my fear was always working aroundstatutory because,
you know, I was always quite used to
being the person working for charitiesand watching those letters,
urging housing, urging social servicesto do more things.
Going on to the other side where,you know, we're now also at the gate.
(39:17):
Keep in a sense, that was the
that was the partI thought I would find most challenging.
Yeah.
So that starts I think it's it'smore having that direct interaction
with and with the clientsthat I'd want to work with.
Okay, Thanks so much.
That's another really interesting.
(39:38):
And so, you know,there's this there's obviously this bigger
in there'sthis whole bigger picture around care.
But, you know, obviously it's that kind of
interpersonal interactionthat means a lot to you.
And and it sounds like that'sgoing to be really important to you.
And to your agencyand the work of your agency.
So just want to ask a final questionbefore we wrap things up.
(40:02):
And that again and again is goodand maybe it's come back again.
That's good.
And the bigger thing about,you know, so and the Centre for Care
and the research I'm doingis about the care workforce in the UK.
And so I'd just like to askyour kind of views
and not in generalabout the future of the care workforce.
Do you see any cause for optimism?
(40:22):
It's quite a bleak picture termsas things like the numbers.
Yeah, I mean I,I think it's such a, it's a difficult one
and it will be a huge challenge, I think.
Chancellor optimism.
I think there is possibility for optimism.
But I think as you know from a careprovider now, from from that perspective,
(40:42):
I think it's about looking internally nowand reviewing
how we value our carersand whether or not we really do.
So I think, you know,I don't think the actual job itself
is the reason why,but I think it's quite easy to say,
well carvers don't want you know,no one wants to do the job, but I actually
(41:04):
think it's reviewing our own practicesas a care provider and ensuring that well,
or really thinking aboutwhat are we doing to
to make it a comfortable and enjoyable
and viable job for people
rather than just expecting carersto accept how it is.
So I think the owners should be put more
(41:26):
so on us as individual care providers,see what we can do.
And I think if we and I think that's why,
you know, it causes the private sectorand that's why it's difficult.
I think there does need to be morejoined up work with the local authority.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's it's a difficult one,but I think that it does
(41:47):
need to be more joined upif we do want to see difference.
I think the Government need to prioritisethe adult social care agenda,
but at the same time I think like,you know, care providers
can't just rely on the government.
I think we need to be doing more eithercollectively
and and individually to
(42:08):
that because, you know, I think
in terms of going out into people's homes,especially home care,
I don't thinkI think people may also have an issue
with the with the environmentthat they're working in, with the stress,
with the pressuresrather than the actual job itself.
You know,
yes, there are parts of it which arechallenging, but I think it's more
the environment in which they work in thatthat's difficult and it could be
(42:32):
expectation that they have to gosee ten clients in one day
or expectation of picking up and shiftsat the last minute every day.
Those are the sorts of thingswhich turning people away
in and out, they can be unavoidable.
But that's what I think we need to beworking on, so that when people do come
in, those aren't the parts that thatthat turn people away.
(42:53):
Thank you very much for that.
And Cecilia, it's very interesting
point in which to
finish so and thank youthank you very much
for four more episodesand the Care Matters series
and to learn more about the Centrefor Care, please follow the link
in the episode descriptionfor a website and social media channels.
(43:17):
All that remains for me to dois to thank our guest, Celia Obama again.
So thank you very much, Celia.
Thank you.
And thank you for listening. Thank you.
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