How Language Matters episode 3: How language matters in the research process

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and Circle,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series, our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care.

(00:27):
As we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Okay, let's get started.
So I'm Jayanthi Lingham,
and I am a research associatehere in the Centre for Care.

(00:50):
I'm working on a research studycalled Borders in Care,
which looks at the careneeds and experiences of people
with a range of different migrationhistories.
And I'm really pleased todayto be joined by Dr Rashida Bibi.
Rashida is also at the Universityof Sheffield.
She's a qualitative researcher workingin the Department of Sociological Studies,

(01:11):
she joined the department in January 2023,and she's working on an ESRC
funded projectcalled Ethnicity and Unequal Ageing.
The project aims to takean intersectional life course approach
to develop richer understandingsof ethnic inequalities in later life.
And the research has co-productionand collaboration at its core,
and aims to critically interrogatenormative understandings

(01:35):
of marginalised communities and patternsof social inclusion or exclusion,
and foregrounds lived experiences of older
and black, Asian and minorityethnic and refugee individuals.
And a little bit about Rashidabeyond this research study.
Her interests include intersectionality,ethnicity, religion, and the everyday.

(01:56):
She completed her PhDat the University of Manchester,
and this explores the everyday livesof British South Asian Muslim women
acrossspaces of home, work in public spaces,
where Rashid recently worked with the OpenUniversity as an associate lecturer,
as well as on various research projects,including decolonising the school
history curriculum.
From the perspective of teacher trainersand on changing practices

(02:19):
of grief and mourning for British Muslimcommunities during the Covid 19 pandemic.
So, Rashid, a very warm welcomeand thank you for joining us today.
Thank you Jay,Looking forward to our discussion.
We're here today to talk
about how language mattersin the research process.
And just to kind of set the contexta little bit,

(02:42):
what we're specifically talking about, and drawing on is, your experience
and expertise of working with multipleverbal languages in research.
And by verbal,I'm differentiating from and from
movementbased languages such as sign language.
So we, we bothand you especially have experiences

(03:04):
working with a range of differentlanguages in past and present research.
I wanted to maybe say something about,
why this matters in the first placeand setting the context a little bit.
And perhaps I can start with
some very broad quantitative data,
which is that in the 2021 census,

(03:27):
there were, looking at England and Walesand excluding English and Welsh
languages, there are 93 other languagesspoken in the UK.
And and so there's a whole rangeof, of whole parts of the population
that are communicating in a rangeof other languages than English and Welsh.

(03:48):
And when we talk aboutinclusive research,
we need to take into accounthow populations fit, have those
is that preferred languages, howwe include them in process of research.
And I wonder ifperhaps I can ask you, Rashida,
to say a little bitabout what your experiences
are of working with multiple languagesin your present study and in the past.

(04:10):
Yeah, of course.
I think, definitely is worth
remembering that, language is power
and there is a sense of,politics around language as well.
It's always worth bearing in mind
that historically, institutionshave used language,
as a source of, of power and research I'mworking with on at the moment

(04:33):
with, older ethnic minoritypopulations in Sheffield and Rotherham,
talking to lots of people of blackand African-Caribbean,
people in the Irish population, peoplefrom what's broadly
being defined as Muslim,which includes a range of ethnicities,
a range of ethnicities,as well as sort of,

(04:54):
the Roma populationas part of our research as well.
Bearing in mind that, olderethnic minority people
have a multiple languages,and English isn't their first language,
and their experiences of migrationand moving to the UK
often language has been and can be,and has been used as a as a tool
to silence them as well and to to measuretheir level of integration

(05:17):
and, assimilation and essentiallythe level of Englishness as well.
So it's always worth bearing in mindthat language is a powerful tool
that can be used to suppress,but also empower as well.
So I'll talk a bit more about,sort of the experiences of working across
multiple languages,and the need for academia

(05:38):
to take into account, the how to includeand how to be inclusive, with,
with languages as well, and particularlywith different communities.
But I really appreciate thatas a starting point, actually,
which is to highlight that even though
we're talkingabout the kind of very practical thing
about working with multiple differentverbal languages,
we need to think about the factthat talking about these languages

(06:00):
is almost just a jumping off pointinto thinking about these other
very important powerdynamics and, and historical, historic
shaped, socially shaped,economically shaped, power dynamics.
Yeah.
I mean, absolutely, language suffusesevery aspect of our lives as well.
So it's important to think about sort ofwhich language is

(06:23):
how historically been included,which languages are championed,
which languages are considered,most popular and which are which are then
languages are then consideredmarginal or exotic or other.
So it's that sort of thinking aboutwhy some are included and others are not.
And what that means essentiallyfor for people who speak

(06:45):
another language, essentially.
And it's interestingthinking about which language is included
and which aren'twhen we're talking about research.
And I should just say upfrontthat in our conversation today, we
we will be talking about qualitative
research methodologieswith qualitative researchers.
And there is a whole othervery interesting and important discussion

(07:06):
to be had around language in quantitativeand mythological research, but
perhaps for anotherday or another podcast.
But coming back to the questionof which languages are included,
I think, one of the things that I found,and perhaps
you can speak about this in your research,is that when,
when, academia or academic projectstalk about including other languages,

(07:29):
even when they do include other languages,they still tend to only include,
like the dominant languagefrom a certain population.
So, for example, from India, it'sassumed that it might be Hindi or whereas
actually there are so many other languages
and most people don't speak Hindi,all of them,
then. Absolutely.
And I think this is essentially this,this notion of assumptions

(07:53):
and academia makes about, the communitiesthat it's, it's researching.
And I think that that comes downto this idea of this lack of
understanding and lack of engagement.
And essentially this, this top downapproach to research
where there's an assumptionmade about the community that you're

(08:14):
that the project is researchingand that that's really important point.
It's researching onrather than researching with them
the social differences.
So when you're researching with,you're making that very conscious
to step to really think about the people,
but that you're going to research withthe people that you're going to work with.

(08:35):
And the community itself is rather thansort of taking that top down approach,
which makes a sort of general assumptionabout, across a whole population,
which is and is not just, academia.
I think institutionshave historically done that,
and only nowstarting to sort of really engage with,
different communities and work withsort of picking up the nuances of language

(08:59):
and other aspects of social and culturallife amongst sort of what they seem
to be a rather homogenous community,which we know really isn't.
So, you know, thinking about the thingslike the NHS and, and councils
and the way that they work and havehistorically worked with communities
and the languagesthat I've been privileged.

(09:20):
And it's really worththinking about how we approach research
and how we approach engagement as well,thinking about how we can do all
that learning that's come beforeand all the assumed knowledge that has
come before.
Yeah.
And we're going to come on a littlein a little bit to talk about kind of
the very practical stepsthat you might take to actually
be truly inclusive when you're workingwith multiple, verbal languages.

(09:44):
But I just want to,and stay a little bit on this,
on this question ofand how people would communicate
with languages and, assumptionsthat are made because you,
you discussed the important pointfor their assumptions made about
which language
is actually spoken by certain populations,and then that's imposed.
There's also and the questionwhich I think is in your current research

(10:07):
study of assumptions madethat people will be able to read or write
in certain languages, and when actuallyspoken language might be dominant.
And this affects how people are recruited
or given access to certain studiesor having given information in study.
And again,going back to sort of the participants

(10:27):
that we've left with sort of olderparticipants with a history of migration.
And when you think about sort ofwhere people have come from and perhaps,
you know, the, the, the,the type of education they may or may not
have had before coming to the UKor before moving to any country.
So this idea that, you know, assumingthat everybody has a level of literacy

(10:49):
and being able to read and writein the language that they speak, in
which we know just isn't the case,you know, it doesn't always work that way.
So, yes, you can be inclusive and providesort of materials, such as consent forms
on participant information
sheets in different languages, and in the languages that are is spoken.
But it there's an assumption therethat, you know

(11:12):
that thethat then the individual can read rights.
And so this has implications for the way
that you take consent, for example,in a research project as well.
So really thinking about if we're goingto be inclusive in our research, how do we
how do you pull apartthose, the, those way of doing those,
those traditional way of doing thingsso that, that inherently traditional way

(11:35):
of taking consent as writtenand maybe thinking about ways in which
we include people who don't havethat level of literacy and, and thinking
about how we can make sure that research,as in, is as inclusive as it could be.
And again,it comes down to sort of that assumption
that language needs isis simply just about providing,

(11:56):
you know, a consent form or providinginformation in multiple languages.
And yes, but is important to dois important to recognise,
languages and recognise the importanceof other languages.
But it's also about thinking beyondjust the very it's moving
beyond those assumptionsand really unpicking and thinking

(12:18):
about what a community and whatessentially what an individual needs
and really doing it on that basis,very much on an individual focus.
And going back to what you were sayingabout the reasons why people might,
or the populations that we're working within, in, in your research study
on ethnicity and on ageing
and also within the centre for careon the Borders and Care study with,

(12:40):
people with migration historieswhere we're centring older people,
there might be multiple reasonswhy people and don't have like written
and, don't write and read in their firstor second languages, let alone English.
And there's could be to do withit could be socio economic reasons.
It could be, the fact that that primary education,

(13:00):
secondary education just couldn'tbe completed wasn't available.
There wasn't an expectationthat they would complete it.
But this isn't to say that the peoplethat were then included in the research
haven't had knowledgeand haven't uneducated.
It's just the
education happens in a different waythrough oral traditions, for example.
And so we need to be very sensitiveto that.

(13:21):
But it's interesting then,that when we have come to think about,
people's access to speaking Englishand learning English here,
some of the communities that we work withhave have pointed out, well, if you
if you're if there's somebodywho is, say, in their 70s or something
and hasn't even had the opportunityto complete primary or secondary education

(13:43):
in their first or second language,and then it teaching them English,
and you're expecting them to sit downin a classroom and read
and write off a whiteboard or whateverin English.
You know, that's just completelyit just makes no sense whatsoever.
So there's a kind of disconnect,not just in research, but also in kind of
and people's ability

(14:03):
to kind of, access and resourceswith language here in the UK.
That that is key to point that out, that,
access to English language provisionin, in the UK has historically
been up and down and it's it's
always been one of the first,
one of the first or hardest hit in termsof, you know, costs.

(14:27):
That's where that's where,you know, it's assumed that we can cut.
And so and that's historically where,
rare cuts have happened as wellin English language provision.
But at the same time, there's
this assumptionthat that's a preferred way of learning.
And as you say,you know, assuming people, but
that people will want to be ableto sit down in the classroom

(14:47):
and learn in that way,whereas, you know, traditions of all oral
storytelling or learning in that wayare not really privileged in this country.
So that it's, again, it's
this idea that we can fit peopleinto particular boxes and,
and they should learn this wayor they should speak that way.
But also, again, going back to sortof the older populations as well, there's

(15:09):
an assumption that older people don'twant to learn or aren't able to learn.
You know,
they don't have the same cognitive abilitythat that the end of a population
might have, or a youngermigrant might have, for example.
And it goes back to, again, this ideathat as you
age, as we get older,we aren't as useful to society anymore.
So is it worth investing in older peopleand their learning?

(15:31):
I'm just thinkingof some of my participants who did speak
about wanting to learn Englishor wanting to improve English,
but not being able to access, for example,English language classes.
A because the demand on those classesis so high at the moment.
But also the fact that they're not seenas, you know, it's not seen as essential

(15:52):
for this population,this older population as it is
perhaps seen for people who may laterin life contribute to the economy.
So it's this idea of how we value peopleand how we value their learning
and how we understand,how important that learning is for them.
As well.
Bringing it backto the process of research, which, which,

(16:15):
which she would started talking aboutand then I, I diverse as you from
you were talking about,
we were talking aboutthe kind of the importance
but also the limitationsof having research tools, research
information, consentforms in written form.
But we were thinking also about, the fact that it's not enough

(16:36):
to have that.
I just wanted to saythat in the current research
that I'm working on,even though people may not be fluent,
at reading in,their first or second spoken language,
it is still been really importantto have those there and to end
as a way of includingfor those who do want to read in, and also

(16:57):
for family members who can read in theother languages to be able to have that.
So not to assume, therefore,that people will only be able to
speak or, talk about it,
but also because certain populations,especially people who've migrated due
to conflict, violence, post-colonialconflict or violence, might have

(17:17):
or are likely to have already faceddiscrimination
and marginalisationbecause of their language.
And so then as a research studyto to get consent
and to provide accurate informationin those languages,
I think is particularly politicallyimportant as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I agree,I think, it's key to recognise

(17:40):
the importance of languagefor an individual as well.
And I think that's, that's part of doinggood research is to understand
how important, language isand to understand the context of language
and how it's been years and how, how,how important it is
in terms of, identityas well for participants in terms of

(18:05):
not only where they are,but where they're coming from as well,
in terms of politics and contextand migration and, and everything else.
And one of the things that we carryis our language and
and of course, our language isn'tjust about what we speak and how we speak,
but also our culture and identityand I know it's so many other aspects

(18:25):
of who we are is wrapped upin the language that we speak.
And to not recognise that, as you say,you know, providing.
Yes, taking verbal consent,but also providing, information
in the language that the participantspeaks and recognising that it,
it probably it
may not be the dominant language or whatwe understand to be the dominant language,

(18:46):
but then building in provisionto make sure that we can provide materials
in the language that the participantspeaks as well, because it's important,
you know, Britain should be doinginclusive research,
you know, making sure that we are beingas inclusive as possible.
So it comesback to that question of power dynamics.
And of course, it's not to pretendthat just by providing, research,

(19:10):
information and consent formsand everything, that you can completely
make that power dynamic.
It's the researcher versus the peoplewho are participating in the equal.
But it can help with that.
With that balance.
Thinking about power dynamics,just going back to that point
that you made about, how languageconnects to your sense of identity

(19:32):
and many other markers,kind of social aspects, cultural aspects.
Another thing to bear in mindwhen when you're producing
these, research tools or informationis how
in academiawe talk about these kind of quite,
airy fairy concepts,you know, or airy fairy,

(19:53):
quite big concepts, perhaps, you know,belonging, identity, ethnicity,
history,you know, all those kinds of things.
And, and
we assume that those can translate
very easily in, in the written wordsto other languages.
And I wonder what your experienceor what you would say about that,

(20:13):
what your experiencehas been by doing that.
I think we fall into as researchers,we fall into sort of academic speak.
And so as we're writing,as we're thinking, we,
we use this, these concepts, quite often
and sort of,you know, less really thinking about them.
We don't sit down and unpick.
So things like, for example,in our research, we've been looking

(20:36):
at sort of concepts around belongingand identity and community
and of course in, in other languages,you know, how do you take a word
like belonging and sort of how do you havethe equivalent in other languages?
It does just doesn't translateas into a single word as it does.
So, so what we've what we've done

(20:57):
is, is sort of included the word in,
in the sort of interviewsguys that we have, but
asks the participant themselves,what what do you understand?
By belonging and often in other languages,it's it's so it's so long
and it's so complicated and it'sso complex and it's so rich and detailed,

(21:17):
and you begin to realise that sortof the academic little boxes that we have
for these concepts doesn't, you know,they don't fit neatly, in other languages.
And this important to think aboutthat as well.
So, you know, trying to make,
these concepts
as open as possibleand open to interpretation as possible.

(21:38):
And you only begin to realise thatonce you work with different communities
and different languages and you beginto understand how people interpret, words
like belonging, words like community,things like family and all of these,
these concepts that we take forgranted or, or we take from a particular
angle can mean so many different thingswhen you,

(22:01):
you know, when you come acrosssome different languages.
And appreciate previous research studythat I worked
on, I think this came up in relationto thinking about care work.
Where care work doesn't necessarilyvery easily translate
into different context workwhere the care that you might do,
the unpaid care you might do is not,

(22:23):
is not necessarily understood as work andwork is under such as a particular thing.
So there might be different languagethat is used to describe all these things,
but also then the notions of dutyand responsibility and burden
and all of those, and how those translate
into and out of Englishand into the other languages.
So it's I think what what you have saidand what my experience also point

(22:48):
points tois that when you're thinking about
when you're workingwith multiple languages,
it's really important to be inclusiveall the way through the process.
So as far as you can co-producethose research tools with people
who do have that language expertiseand that kind
of, sociocultural expertise

(23:08):
so that you can have those openconversations, as you said, to think about
what's the most appropriate and be awarethat it's not just a straight hire
someone for two hours to do
a straight translation of your informationsheet from one language into the other.
Truly inclusive researchsort of factors in, you know,
different languages and communitiesand needs right from the beginning.

(23:30):
It isn't isn't just about hiringan interpreter and,
you know, using them to to facilitate
the conversation between youand the participants of another language.
It's is really about thinkingabout sort of those nuances and,
and those languages, but also the otheraspects of a participant's needs as well.
And it's interesting when you,when you sort of mentioned,

(23:52):
how caring work and care workis interpreted in, in differently.
We have we had a similar, conversationwith with the idea around traditions and,
and when we talkedabout one of our questions,
because we are looking at such a lifehistory as well,
and we talk about familyand family traditions and of course,

(24:13):
now traditions can mean verydifferent things to very different people.
And whereas, you know,we might of the same traditions meant,
you know, having the Santa Rosagoing out on a, you know, to a holiday
of the month or something, or whatevertradition that meant for others.
That was a traditionthat was, you know, for some participants
it was about traditionsfocussed on particular events.

(24:34):
So wedding traditions
for examples or traditions aroundwhat happens when someone dies.
Our traditions are very much focussed
arounda particular cultural religious occasion.
So yeah, so really being open to
to interpretations of concepts and words
and really being aware of a participant'sneeds in terms of the conversation

(24:57):
and that's that exchange of informationreally, rather than such a that extracting
of information, but really being awarethat it's a conversation.
When there's a conversation in language
which has multiple meanings, and nuancesof being prepared for that as well.
And so it really pushes usas, as, researchers to question

(25:18):
the kind of assumptions, the meaningsthat are kind of just embedded
in certain words that we assume meanings,we we ascribe meanings
to, certain things ensue late.
They they are
the same for everyone across the board,but they but they aren't always so.
And I wonder then, if this might bea jumping off point to think about, added
the very kind of practicalaspects of what?

(25:40):
What do we as researchersneeds to take into consideration
when we're approaching a research study,a research project,
and we are committed to workingwith multiple and viable languages,
and, kind
of what resources you need, what you needto be thinking about from the off.
And perhaps we could, start with the very basic thing, of,

(26:05):
how do you even decidewhat languages you work?
I think that there is that sortof approach where you can sort of maybe
do a bit of maybe do a bit of backgroundresearch and sort of think about
sort of or, you know, from a census, getwhat languages are being spoken.
But for me, I would,I would personally do it

(26:25):
the other way around is to really maybeknow,
go down on the ground looking at sort ofcommunity organisations,
both well known, well well-established,but also smaller community organisations
and approaching them to,to ask about sort of languages.
The community needs,the sort of the makeup of the community,

(26:46):
you know, because they are best placeto have that information.
Census data can be out of date.
If, you know, it's every ten years
and, and that information isn't releasedall at once.
So, you know, is quite piecemeal as well.
You're waiting for that,you know, particular information
about particular groupsat different times as well.

(27:07):
So yeah.
So I would say if truly, you know,inclusive research would be about sort of
from the very ground, you know, building up from the very ground
is to really engage with communityorganisations, engage with, people
working with, with different communitiesand understanding from them.

(27:28):
What that what,what those needs are including language.
And other aspects as well.
So from the
often thinking about whowho their participants are,
but that you want to
involve in the research, think about who'swho already has that expertise
and with regardsto, working with, supporting,

(27:48):
engaging with those participants inwhat do they know, rather
than assuming you can goto the kind of quantitative data set
thinking about the quantitative datasets such as census.
When I was looking at some of the dataon languages for for this conversation.
Now, one of the interesting things,one of the most obvious things

(28:09):
that probably won't come as a surpriseto, to most social scientists
is that in England,across the whole of England and Wales,
whereas in 2011 Polish was the first,
was the top most spoken language apartfrom English and Welsh.
And it was in 2021.
But in 2011

(28:30):
Romanian was the 19thmost spoken language.
But in 2021 it was the second
that where it says how much changethat can be.
And if, for example,you're working with, migrant populations
and you want to understandthe needs and experiences
of relatively new arrivals,you know, even over the past
five years, past ten years,and you need to be sensitive to that.

(28:53):
I was I was struck by looking atI think, the 2021 data,
I think on that list of 93,
46 was any other African languagewhich is huge,
obviously, because there are hundredsof languages in that continent.
So, so yeah, I guess
you need to be readywhen you're starting the research

(29:16):
for there to be unexpected thingsto come up with regard to languages.
This is something that can be done
sort of right from the very beginningof thinking about a project.
If this if if there is an ideaof a project that's going to heavily
involve communities,minority communities and,
and other languages, then fromthe very offset is worth thinking about

(29:41):
making sure
that is there is provision therefor ensuring that, you know,
in terms of language and interpretingneeds and transcription needs and,
sort of building in, other languages
and the need to understand the languages.
I'm working with other languages,making sure that, you know, yes,

(30:02):
we and that maybe from the census
a dominant an understandingwhat the dominant languages are.
But being prepared to to
for as we say, forsurprises is really for being prepared to,
to recognisethat there are so many languages,
and so many nuances to languagesthat you will come across, in a project.

(30:25):
So making sure that you build that in
rightfrom the very start of, of your project.
And on a very practical level,this comes to funding
when you're building your budget.
So I suppose, for example,when you're thinking about
how you going to co-produce,how what how you're going to create
different research materials than youmight initially think to yourself, okay,

(30:47):
we'll have English in one other languageperhaps, but perhaps your budget
actually needs to think, okay,there'll be three other languages
and build in and allow for the factthat, you know, most people,
might speak, Punjabi,
but then others might, speakup, worry or,

(31:07):
other languagesthat are kind of similar but not the same.
And you need to make sure that those
your materialsare inclusive in that respect.
And as you said,that process of co-production,
even before you startthe research needs to start with,
with the community groups,the organisations that are,

(31:29):
really embedded and, and, and,
and workwith particular participant groups.
I can see how quantitative data can be abit of a use, can be quite a useful guide.
So for example, if you're thinking about,
if you want to do researchwith migrant care workers,
you could perhaps look at, you know,where are the places

(31:50):
that migrantthe care workers have, are coming from.
And I'm coming into workforceand and think about those mine
which is the even thenthat landscape is shifting so quickly,
and not least because of all the changesthat are happening with, you know, UK
legislation around, care worker rights or lack of rights.
So you need to be really flexible.

(32:12):
I think then you.
And I
think isreally sort of this idea of co-production.
If building thatand from the very start of the project
and ensuring so connectingwith community organisations.
But what we've also done in the projectthat I'm working on and ethnicity
and inclusive ageingis to also, recruit community researchers.

(32:34):
So these are individualswho are embedded in the community,
who live in that community, who understandthe needs of their community
and essentially understand the differentlanguages of their community as well.
So that's one aspect of sortof co-production and working with it,
with the community, working with peoplethat the community trusts as well.

(32:55):
I think it's really importantto think about
how a project works,but also who a project works with as well.
So, you know, engaging withand then recruiting community researchers
who have really beena hugely essential part of our research.
One to, you know,
to interact withand engage with the community in a way

(33:17):
that the community trusts usbecause they know the community research
very well, but also in a way that allowsus to access those other languages
and then to understand,
other languages and the needs of of that community as well.
So I think that's in a naturally inclusiveperspective.
It's not just, sort of providingmaterials, but it's also thinking about

(33:40):
who you're working withand how you're working with
and how you are embedding thatwithin the project itself as
a longer term approachrather than, you know,
engaging with someone for a few hours, in terms of interpreting.
And, and historicallyand unfortunately still in academia,
I think it's all too often assumed thatthat kind of work will happen for free.

(34:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
Historically,academic research has been, very,
exploitative and extractiveand exploitative and, of community
organisationsassuming that community organisations
who are already underfunded, and, and,
you know, stretched and their resources

(34:28):
know have historically providednot only access to communities,
but also, sort of language provisionas well,
and provided that,that help into into reaching out.
And they've often donethat for free as well.
So that's been you know,they're not being compensated fairly.
And that's somethingalso that we need to think about as well.
I think in this project we have,

(34:49):
we've done our bestto make sure that where we abused
community organisation, communityresources, we've done so in a way
that compensates them fairly for their useof their facilities and their time,
and but also making surethat two of our co-investigators,
in this project are, very wellestablished community organisations.

(35:10):
So we have Sadako in, in Sheffieldand we have Rima in, in Rotherham,
which are very,very well established community
organisations and, and making surethat they are co-investigators.
So they are recognised as being very muchan intricate,
integral part of the project,but also making sure
that they're compensated fairlyfor their time and resources as well.

(35:35):
Yeah.
So there's all those things that,that it's, it's a bit too easy
for academia to kind of,to kind of skate over the fact that
if you are goingto be recruiting participants
and you recognise that peoplemay not read, a recruitment document
or a questionnaire that hasthat has been translated
into another language and put on Twitter,for example, stock up in your surgery

(35:55):
because they don't read, languages.
And then you are basically relyingon somebody who does speak those languages
to phone people up, or to talk to peopleat a community meeting to explain to them
what the study is, to bring them along,to get there, to get their trust.
And, you know, peoplewho've been people who have had,
interactions with the university or with,you know, establishment institutions

(36:19):
and have been very badlytreated, might be extra wary of engaging.
So all of that needs to be overcome
and all that needs to happenin other languages.
And typically we assume as academicsthat that all that time taken,
the effort will happen for free.
And so it's really importantto build that into your
your budget upfrontor to take account of it.
And as you said in your,ethnicity unequal ageing study,

(36:42):
that's happened in the centre for care, we have we've done our best to build that
in also with established organisations,but also newer organisations stand as one.
And I think the key thing is,
to, to really take,take account of the time
and the labour that they areputting into doing that work.

(37:04):
And then what about, what about in the participant
recruitment, in the data collection.
Yeah.
So with participant recruitment,there's being mindful of understanding,
you know, where,where our points of engagement can be.
So again sort of having these communityorganisation spaces that can reach out

(37:26):
to older people,as having the community researchers
there as well, who, who are wellestablished in their community,
have been engaged in communitywork for years and
and are well knownand trusted in their community as well.
So being mindful of howhow you're recruiting is really important.
I think it's one of those aspectsof understanding,

(37:50):
understanding individual needs.
So it's, it's key to think abouthow recruiting and where and
and so in our research, we have been
thinking about how we're engagingwith our community organisations,
how we engaging
with our community researchers,the messages that we're putting out.

(38:10):
We talked about sort of, you know,these are older ethnic minority
populations who have been in the UK forsome of them
have been in the UK for a long time.
If we're talking aboutsort of the Windrush generation,
and historically their engagementswith institutions,
and research have been negative,and inherently negative.
When we, when we think about and another thing I would say is

(38:32):
that as a researcher,be prepared for that level of cynicism
and distrust as well.
Because a lot of our older
participants have been partof many research projects and previously
they've they've talked to the NHS,they've told the council.
So they, you know, they're well awareof the health of the research and, but

(38:54):
it's also a case of,understanding how historically that,
that community has been exploitedand making sure that you're doing
something that's, that's inclusive and different as well.
Yeah.
So having different languagesas part of your, as part of your research
research toolbox is, is a stepbut not enough.

(39:15):
You need to beyou need to go a bit further on that.
And then in terms of the data collection,I guess then we're talking about,
working with interpreters
in, in,
research sessions with their interviewsand their
or histories.
Yeah.
So it's a data collection, essentially.
So making sure that,

(39:35):
you know, you have that provisionfor other languages in there as well,
but also thinking about, inclusivity and data collection as well.
How are you gathering that information?
Again, sort of going back to this idea
of being extractive and, such a
there is that power dynamicof research and research.

(39:56):
And when there is a difference
of language and language as well,that can be sort of magnified.
So it's importantto think about that relationship
between when there is an interpreterthere as well.
So that relationship between you and theinterpreter and the participant as well.
I'm thinking about how that dynamicwill work,
and sort of factoring thatinto the conversation that you're having

(40:18):
and being mindful of the participantas a person as well.
So, so really sort of thinkingabout conversations that we're having
with participants of, of,of other languages and different languages
and bearing in mindthe needs of, of other people as well.
And I would say that,
being mindful of the participantas a person,

(40:39):
but also mindful of the interpreteras a person.
So in our bodies and care study,we have worked with, interpreters
who have come through
the community organisation standards,one that we're working with.
And I guess there are
there are risks and benefits to that.
So the risks might be
you can't necessarily assume thatbecause somebody comes from within

(40:59):
a relatively small community,that that will make it all okay.
You know,there might be issues with trust.
People might worry that gossipor confidentiality.
So it's really importantto have those, those those processes
as ethical processesof confidentiality agreements in place.
But then having someonewho who participants already know
can really benefit in termsof that being trust, but also in terms of

(41:24):
making the research then beneficialin a number of different ways
for the community.
So the interpreter coming fromthe community itself is, is I mean, that's
that's work that's going to the community,to somebody in the community.
It's kind of, contributing to somebody's skills base.
Perhapsif they're doing interpretive work.
But also thinking about how they might,

(41:47):
what they need themselves toand when they're in an interview.
So I would alwaysand build in a briefing session
beforehand, a debriefing session after,
it's always been very striking to me in
the different research studies thatI've worked on, how as an interpreter,
you come into contact with difficultinformation at multiple points.

(42:12):
So you ask a potentially very sensitivequestion, you hear in a different
in one language, the participantsquite potentially quite raw answer.
You then have to translate itto, to the researcher.
You then have to deal with their reaction.
You then have to communicate it back.
And so it's like an intense loadon top of working in different languages.

(42:35):
And so that debriefing
and thinking about interpretercare is also a really important thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And as you said, there are such as,there can be drawbacks.
And in terms of it's, it'sinterpreted through someone as well known
and so that there can be issuesof confidentiality, but also huge benefits

(42:57):
to using an interpreterfrom the community as well.
Someone you know, whothe participant trusts,
and will engage with.
But also, yeah, like yousaid, interpreter care as well,
because as you're saying, let me
in our, interviews as well,there have been some sensitive issues

(43:17):
that come up and having,
you know, taking care of the participant,but also the interpreter as well, who
who then hearsthis, the sensitive information and,
and the how to deal with sortof the emotions, in research as well.
So thenI will that then goes also to the whole,
issue of ethics,which so, so this question of languages

(43:41):
kind of needs to go into your ethicsapproval, your ethics application.
Crisis researcher.
So then thinking, I'm thinkingeach of these steps
in the research process,thinking about data analysis.
You've conducted this researchin, different languages
and you have potentially audio recordings.

(44:02):
What kinds of thingsdo you need to think about at that point?
Part of the one of the issues aroundsort of data analysis is that,
you have audio recordings, butthen you also need transcripts as well.
So as part of this project,we've been sending
audio, off to be transcribed.
And there's always somethingthat's lost in the written form.

(44:26):
So I'm justsort of thinking about ethics.
And how long do you hold on to an audio
and, and so of course, you use the audio.
So think about your transcriptand to check the transcript as well.
But there's also always somethingthat's lost, in the written form.
So it's, it's interesting.

(44:48):
It's data analysis.
Do you, do you analyse the recording?
But of course you have to be mindfulof making sure that you're ethically
compliant as well, that you're deletingrecordings appropriately
and, you know, anonymizing transcriptsappropriately as well.
And then we also have communityresearchers who have been gathering
this research, including themin the sort of analysis approach as well.

(45:11):
So thinking about data analysis from a,
and a co-produced way,but that elements of sort of language and,
and I have been doing some transcriptionsas well
and thinking about wordsthat are said in another language.
And I'm thinking about whatwhat's the best way.
And it goes back to that,that idea of those larger

(45:33):
academic conceptsthat we have that don't translate,
into one, one word, or in, in another language.
And then you think about the,the other way, the transfer.
So, so there are particular phrasesand, words in other languages
that don't neatly translateto English as well.
So that, that, that sort of data analysisand being mindful of

(45:56):
the richness of language, and,and thinking about
writing that up in an academic way,you're always going to lose something,
and being preparedto understand that that will happen
and, and how to mitigate that is somethingthat's also going to be thought of.
I guess you you always have the option of,

(46:19):
doing quite a quick and dirtyand I would say inadequate.
Transcription of just the Englishlanguage parts of the interview
so that you have had the interpreterthere, in the process of data collection.
But then you do just English language andaudio to English language transcription.
But to me, you know, as you said,even bearing in mind

(46:42):
that you lose somethingwhen you go from audio to written,
I still think the richnessof the participants word
as spoken in their own language,especially when you're talking about,
you know, histories of,you know, long histories of complexity.
And everyone's histories are complex.
I think to be able to have a propertranslation is really important

(47:03):
for all of thoseall of those nuances that you talk about,
make me think about the factthat my preference, which isn't always
possible, research studies, is to be ableto work directly with the linguist
who is, taking the audiorecording and creating and translating,
then creating an English transcription inbecause it allows me to then say to them,

(47:26):
okay, I'm not so bothered about whatset in English being perfect,
but what I'd really like you to dois to focus on, you know,
the part between,you know, minute 20 and minute 40 in,
you know, whatever languagein Swahili, for example, and,
and you don't have the ability to do thatwhen you're working

(47:47):
through a language companywho then subcontract out,
so thoseare challenges in, in with universities,
I think is neck, because universities tendto prefer that you or universities
insistthat you have an authorised supplier.
So that my preference would always beto be able to work

(48:08):
with a trusted individualor do a trial with them first, perhaps,
of like 15 minutes and make sure you can,but then have a process whereby you can
if you read a transcriptand you want to double check something,
drop them an email and say,what did this mean?
And build in all of thatextra time to how you
and to how you remunerate themfor that work?

(48:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would love to, to do that.
I think for this project, like yousay, as universities prefer those
big corporations, they like companieswith the nice tax numbers.
So it's the it'sa company registration numbers.
So I have been working with sort of ratherfaceless transcription companies and,

(48:51):
sort of the back and forth of asking for,for quotes and,
and even sourcing languages, I think.
And then it goes back to this idea ofwhat are the dominant languages,
that even transcription companiesare, transcribing and what they consider
the more rarer languagesas they call them.
So so yeah, I wouldI would love to do the

(49:12):
the way that you have talked about sort ofusing, using someone is, you know,
you can have a personal connection with,but unfortunately sort of funding projects
and the timelinethat we're given to turn things around
sort of doesn't often allow for that,which is a shame.
Yeah, there is definitely a timing thing,which is that

(49:32):
if you are working with just oneindividual, you're reliant on that one
individual being able to buildin all that work into their everyday life.
Whereas with a companythey might outsource to a number
of different linguists.
But the flip side isyou don't really know what the set up is
and how the company isthen paying the linguists and therefore,
you know,the time that the linguist is able

(49:53):
to put towards that work,or how they're briefing the linguist.
Exactly.
There's
issues with the structure of that service,I think.
Isn't that which naturally happenswhen you work with
some subcontracting services.
So you have the agreementwith one big company
and then they're outsourcing ITor outsourcing IT, and you don't know

(50:15):
what's happening,you know, at the very end. And,
but sometimes in the way university
processes happen, itmay be the only way that you can do that.
So there's there's all of that complexitywith the data analysis part, which we're,
which we're both, you know, deep intoin our respective studies at the moment.

(50:36):
I guess then you're on to thinking aboutdissemination, impact and engagement.
Follow up.
I wonder what you would have to sayabout about,
working with multiple languagesat those different stages?
Yeah.
I think it's really importantvery early on to think about
how you'll engage with communities,sort of post fieldwork,

(51:00):
especially sort of communitieswho have historically,
you know, as we've said, been exploitedand, research has been extracting.
So how do you engage,how do you disseminate, how do you take
the information that you have and,and share it again with communities
that you've worked with and,and of course, you've got to think about,

(51:21):
multiple languagesand language needs as well.
So making sure that the materialsthat you're using to advertise, any work
that you're doing, and, you know,any impact to any, engagement work
that you're doing and sharing ofthe research is done in, in the languages
that you've researched with as well, being mindful of that.

(51:41):
And, and again,it goes back to thinking about that
very early on when you're,you know, designing your budget
and the funding for making surethat that is built into them as well.
And so the follow up, long
term sort of engagement with communities,I think is is key.
And one aspect of sort of recognising,the different needs and different

(52:03):
languages of communitiesis to engage with them in those different
languages and engagewith them in different forms as well.
So, you know, I'm not just talking
organising a workshopwhere you talk at communities,
but sort of really incorporatingthe way that those communities
communicate with each other as well.
So things like oral historyand oral storytelling,

(52:25):
you know, incorporating thingslike music and, sort of drums
and sort of buildingthat into the engagement work
that you're doing to ensurethat it is as as inclusive as possible.
And it isn't.
What that was historically happenedis that the talking at communities,
rather than sitting and engagingwith communities, is really key to think

(52:48):
about how that works across differentlanguages, different communities,
different cultures.
So it's not enough in your knowledgeexchange
or disseminationto create a written outfit
that is then translations other languages,but it's also not enough to
then just have a workshop or a gatheringwhere you talk at them

(53:08):
in different languages.
You need to think much,or we can think much more, broadly
and creatively thinking about artsmethods, like you said.
But different ways of communicatingthat's going to be
that are going to be meaningfulto people where
where there isn't just the assumptionthat English, spoken English
or written English will be the way,for people to access that information.

(53:32):
What's been, great about thisproject is the working across
sort of different communitiesand different languages, and you can see
points at which we can bring, different groups and, together.
So a rich or, storytelling,
you know, cultureand sort of Somali, dance, for example,
would work really wellwith sort of the Irish community of folk

(53:57):
singing and sort of bringingthose together and sort of mapping
those communities together,
but also bringing the storiestogether of ageing and,
you know, sort of language and historyand, and sort of process of migration.
So, so they can be very creativewith the way that you
do, you share information with, withthe community that you research and with.

(54:18):
And of course, you should be, because,
the sort of traditional method of,of talking at a people
just puts people off,you know, it really does.
And I've seen that in sort of the waythat community researchers
have engaged with their communitiesand the feedback
that they've given us about sort of eventswhich are quite formal and, and dare
I say, boring, but sort of making sure that sort of

(54:41):
unpicking the way that we do thingsessentially is unpicking the way academe.
Yeah, things are waysshould be done and sort of
really drawing from the communitiesthat we're working with
to do something different andto do something, engage in creative and,
and sort of that sort of engagement
that really draws them, draws communityand, but also give something back as well.

(55:03):
That soundsamazing, that dissemination event.
I don't know if it's something
that's actually being plannedor has happened yet.
Across Somali, Irishor different communities
with different, creative methods.
So that sounds phenomenal.
And perhapswe'll hear more about it in the future.
I wanted to, I guess, finishbecause we have, talked quite a while,

(55:24):
by, asking you
if there were if there's kind of one thingfor people to go away and
sort of bear in mindwhen thinking about, working
with multiple, languages and research,what might that be?
I think I think for me, it is
the very, very practical thing about, thinking about

(55:48):
all of those steps and buildingin a budget that takes account of,
of what you, what resourcesyou need to be able to do that properly.
So it's not just a smashand grab extractive exercise.
I wondered whether there's anythingthat you would that you would,
you would saythat you'd want people to take away.
Yeah.
Essentially,I think it is, bearing in mind

(56:11):
things aroundsort of funding and also thinking
about sort of the limitations of,you know, having short term projects,
but also sort of be preparedto do your work beforehand.
I think that's the key aspectof sort of really thinking about
if you are going to work acrossmultiple languages to understand,

(56:33):
you know, the communities that that feedthose multiple languages,
understanding their needs and,where they are
and what organisationsare working with them.
And really engaging with that sort ofdoing that background work
before you sort of even think, beforeyou're designing that project.
So just so that you can then incorporatethat into your funding, and you can

(56:56):
then incorporate that into the time neededto build trust with these communities.
A time when you did the to, workwith interpreters and the time that's
needed to, for example, hire communityresearchers and train them up as well.
So you canthen build that into the project.
And as you say.
So it's not,you know, making you up as you go along,

(57:16):
but really, it's a, it's a projectthat sort of has at its core,
the needs ofa community and which includes language.
Rasheeda, thank you so muchfor taking part in this, conversation.
It's been fascinating to hearabout your experiences
working with multiple languages, your pastand your current ones.

(57:37):
And, I'm really looking forwardto hearing more about how the data
analysis, disseminationand engagement activities go on your study
and, and, sharing them with whatwe're doing in the centre for care.
Thank you. Thank you.
Been a really interesting conversation.
And it's important to think through thoseand those aspects of research,

(57:58):
which sometimes we don'talways have the time to reflect on.
So really think great conversationto think about sort of language
and language needs and the practicalitiesof that when it comes to academia. And,
and how academia is structured.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Language Matters episode 3: How language matters in the research process