January 26, 2023 • 48 mins
The EU Care Strategy: a watershed moment for unpaid carers and care workers across Europe?
In this episode of the podcast we’re discussing the new EU Care Strategy, which was formally adopted by the European Commission in December 2022. Becky Driscoll, one of our Research Associates, is joined by guests Stecy Yghemonos and Zoe Hughes.
Stecy shares his insights as the Executive Director of Eurocarers, a pan-European organisation which was closely involved in advocating for what the Strategy should include in order to improve the wellbeing of unpaid carers and properly value caregiving.
Zoe is Senior Policy and Research Officer at Care Alliance Ireland, and shares her perspective from one of the EU member states which will now turn its attention to implementing the recommendations in the Strategy.
We discuss why it matters to have an EU-wide strategy - what value will it add to the piles of strategy papers produced in different countries? Where is it most likely to have an influence, and could this extend to non-member states such as the UK? What are some of the core values and commitments that are most exciting to see included? Finally, we examine some of the issues which would benefit from re-framing and our hopes for the first stage of implementation.
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Learn more about our research on the Centre for Care website here: https://centreforcare.ac.uk/
The CARE MATTERS Podcast is produced by Dan Williamson at the Centre for Care.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and CIRCLE,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series,
our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care.
(00:28):
As we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Hello and welcome everyone to this episode
of the Care Matters podcast serieshosted by the Centre for Care.
(00:49):
My name is Becky Driscolland I'm one of the research associates
at the Centre which is hostedby the University of Sheffield.
So my role is focussed on making surethat we use our evidence
to influence policy acrossall four nations of the UK.
So often this means respondingto government consultations,
parliamentary enquiriesand really looking for opportunities
(01:12):
to shape the public debateon what care looks like.
So I'm really excited that this episodeis going to focus on the European Union
Care Strategy, which was formally adoptedin December 2022.
Now, while the UK is obviously no longera member of the European Union
at the Centre for Care, we're very keento have an international perspective
(01:35):
and indeed we've got lotsof international research partners
that we look to workwith really collaboratively.
And it's really important, all of usat the centre that we look to learn
from new approaches in different countriesaround the world as much as possible.
So this episode, I'm really delighted towelcome two
excellent guests to talk to me todayabout the EU Care Strategy.
So we're joined by Stecy Yghemonosand Zoe Hughes, really looking forward
(01:59):
to great conversation todayby means of introduction.
Staceyis the Executive Director of Eurocarers,
which is a European network working withand for informal or unpaid carers.
Eurocarers brings togetherover 70 organisations from 25 countries
around Europewho work collectively together to ensure
(02:21):
that the growing care needsof the European population are addressed
in a universal and equitable way,and that the vital contribution
that carers make is valuesrecognised and supported.
Zoe is a senior policy and researchofficer working for Care Alliance Ireland,
which is a national network
of voluntary organisationssupporting family carers in Ireland.
(02:43):
She joined the organisation in 2015with qualifications in social work,
social policy and Disability Studies,and she's previously worked
with a number of different academicand voluntary sector organisations.
So she's particularly interestedin the topic of diversity
with caring along with inclusiveand participatory research methods.
(03:04):
She coordinates policy and researchfunctions of Caroline's Ireland,
and she's written
an award winning discussion paper serieswhich aims to bring together
less discussedand perhaps more challenging topics
forward for consideration by professionalswho support family carers.
She also somehow manages to find the timeto undertake her doctoral work
(03:24):
at University College Cork, where she'sfocussing on the topic of family care
within the LGBTQ community.
So with no further ado,I'll perhaps come to you first, Stecy,
and it would be great if you could
perhaps give us a bit of backgroundto the EU Care Strategy.
So if you could summarise for usbriefly what it's all about
(03:46):
and why it's come about in 2022.
Sure. Hello, everyone.
And first of all, thanks for having meas a contributor to the series.
So the European care strategywas put forward, as you said, by
the Commission actually a few months agoalready, but it was formally approved
earlier in December.
(04:08):
So it is a proposalput forward with two main objectives.
The first one is to boost accessto good quality, affordable
and accessible care servicesacross the EU.
And the second objectiveis to improve working conditions
and work life balance for carers,both professional and informal.
(04:28):
So the strategy has a lifecourse perspective and so it focuses
both on child care and long term care,even though, of course
our focus is primarily on on long termcare.
For those of us who are familiarwith the decision making process.
The strategy
(04:49):
package actually consistsof a new communication
and two proposalsfor council recommendations
respectively on childcare and long term care,
both of which have been endorsedby Member States very recently.
And for those of our listenerswho are not familiar with EU jargon,
(05:10):
communications essentially serve to definethe context for action programmes
and future policies and recommendationsare used to suggest a line of action
without imposing any legal obligationon Member States.
In other words, none of these instruments.
So the package,the strategy package is actually
(05:32):
not binding on member states.
Having said that, Member Statesare usually expected
to oblige to the suggestions made.
As part of council recommendationsin as I said, these recommendations
were approvedby member states a couple of weeks ago.
If I may, I just want
to build on what you said earlierin your introduction regarding the impact
(05:56):
of Brexit and the fact that, of coursethe UK is not part of the Union anymore.
What we see based on, on
our experience is an observerof the EU decision making process,
but also as a contributor wherever we canis that usually these strategies
and these initiatives,they tend to inspire action beyond the EU.
(06:19):
So for example, Norway recently
developed a national carers strategy
and it's a direct by-product of the UKstrategy.
We know also, based on previousinitiatives related to care and caring,
a new level that the British Governmentalso kept a close eye
on those developmentsand maybe was also inspired
(06:42):
to to develop,you know, similar initiatives.
Now, the strategy came about,
in my view, for two main reasons.
The first one is, of course,the fact that due to demographic, ageing
and increased longevity in Europe,
we see a growing prevalence of agerelated diseases, chronic diseases,
(07:04):
a growing demand for care and as a result,
a pretty thorny challenge
in terms of the sustainabilityand the quality of our care services.
And these challenges concernpretty much the entire continent.
So certainly all of the EU member states.
So they there is an added value in havingsome sort of a coordination mechanism
(07:29):
on on caring, caring European level.
The second reason,of course, is the pandemic,
which has really acted as a catalyst
by shedding light on the many limitations
and weaknesses of our care systems,and then therefore
also on the urgencyof reinforcing these these services.
(07:50):
So the the commission proposal,the package is a direct response
to calls from various stakeholders,including European parliaments, civil
society organisations, social partners,but also national regional governments.
The the strategy does not meanthat all countries are expected
(08:11):
to put the exact same policiesand support measures in place.
But at least the strategy is a tool
to ensure that all relevant objectives
are pursued by all relevant actors
on both formaland informal long term care.
So the strategy is a great milestone,we believe, for the future of care
(08:34):
and caring in Europe.
It's very timely, actually.
There's been a lot of focus on
what needs to change in social careacross all four nations of the UK.
So in Scotland obviously a real pushto develop a national care service.
Wales, lots of initiativesto improve working conditions.
And in Westminster, House of Lords reportlooking at social care
(08:59):
and trying to really reframe it, thinkingabout making sure for unpaid carers
that it's a real genuine choiceto want to care for their loved one.
That's something they're forced to doby a lack of availability of services
and also making sure that that social caresupport is seen as an enabler, something
the title of the reportis A Gloriously Ordinary Life,
(09:21):
and I think that's a really inspiringwell, it's an ordinary
but inspiring vision that I think lots
of people across the sectorvery enthusiastic signed up to.
So the timing of it, I thinkeven as you say, we're not a member state,
I think hopefully there is the opportunityto learn from
what's going on acrossmany different European countries.
And I guess Zoe from your perspectiveit'll be really interesting
(09:44):
to hear in the Irish contextwhat is the added value that that Stecy
talked about, that having an EU widestrategy brings as opposed to kind of
everybody, different countries
just going off and doing their own thing,cycle strategies.
So again, just, you know,this is the first time I'm speaking,
so thank you very much for having me alongand I really appreciate it.
(10:04):
And coming
from the Irish perspective, you know,we've had a national care strategy here
that focuses on family carers,which is the term
we use in Ireland on family carersfor the last ten years know.
So it's for us it's really goodto see something at a European level
that we can use to build onwhat we've done before
and what has been in placein an Irish context.
(10:26):
A lot of the a lot of the actionsthat were in our national care
strategy
are kind of part of the European strategyor they're, they're, you know, they're
they're third links, if you don't mind,or they're very similar.
So it's really good to see that.
But also as a policy officer, you know, I.
Want to be able to usethe European strategy to be able to show,
okay, you know, we're doing well,you know, on a policy level,
(10:49):
but we need to keep going with it.
We need to keep pushing.
And I always like to
I like to call it ammunition, and I knowthat's quite an aggressive term.
But all of these policiesthat I can draw upon in my discussions
and working towardschanging the services on the ground
is really, really helpfulbecause I think a lot of it
you kind of have to push from the topdown on policy to get this the bottom
(11:11):
up services working well for family carersand for those that they care for.
So from that perspective,that's the real for us in Ireland anyway.
That's how I see the real addedvalue of the EU care strategy.
And again, it kind of goesa little bit of a way as well
to increasing that recognition of the workthat family carers do
just on a daily basis,which I think is really, really important.
(11:33):
You know, we can't focus on that too muchbecause it could be an awful lot of
lip service, you know,
there can be an awful lot ofwell we have a policies in that case,
you know, and the whole point of it
then is to figure out waysto action that policy,
which is a big bugbear of minewhen it comes to policies in general,
you know, we can have great stuffon paper, but it's about actioning them.
And that's kind of where I always tryand put
(11:53):
my focus is on the atthe actioning of those at a local level.
So anything we can do to put that pressureon our local and national actors
of policy makers is so, so helpful,which is why it was so great to see this.
And you remind me and no one terminologyis important for all of our listeners.
So here in the UKand at the Centre for Care,
(12:15):
I wouldn't say necessarily that everybodyis using the same terminology
consistently all the time,but certainly we tend to talk about unpaid
carers to distinguish peoplewho are caring for a partner
or family member,perhaps a friend or a neighbour,
as opposed tosomebody who's a care worker.
They said it's their job, their ployby an agency to go and support somebody.
Where is this?
(12:36):
The EU
strategy talks about informal,
informal carers and so you just mentionedthe language of family carers.
So I would, if I can come to youto say a little bit about the language
in the care strategyand what's meant by that those times.
Sure.
And this is a very important point indeed.
So we speak about the informal carers,
usually colleagues in Irelandspeak about family carers indeed.
(12:57):
And in the UKwe speak about unpaid carers.
We're essentiallytalking about the same people.
So family members, friends or neighbourswho provides
what we say in our definitionof usually unpaid
long termcare to a person with a disability,
a chronic diseaseor any other long lasting care needs,
or could be an addiction, for example,outside of a professional context.
(13:22):
So why do we speak about family carersat the EU level?
Simply because at this stagethe majority of the existing legislation
in EU level, certainly international levelis well, for example, the W.H.O.
or the OECD.
Well, that
legislation tends to referto informal care or informal carers.
(13:44):
So in order to avoid confusion,
we tend to stick to that
wording just in passing.
Based on the definitionI just shared with you, it is very clear
there's actually no easy or no perfect
terminology, informal care.
(14:04):
Well, there's some of my colleaguesquite rightly would say
that there's nothing informalby the informal care.
It's very demanding and very intensewhen you speak about family care.
Well, what about friends and neighboursand unpaid care?
Nowadays in some countries, in regions,
(14:25):
informal carers have accessto some form of financial support.
So I mean, none of these
wordings
is really meetingor ticking all of the boxes
of the definitions.
So unfortunately, there'sno there's no perfect terminology.
Exactly.
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And I thinkwhatever time analogy we use, for me,
one of the real strength of the strategyis that it makes it very, very clear
that we can't look at either unpaid carersor care workers in isolation,
the two sides of the same coin,and that actually
most member states, if not all acrossEurope, have relied far too much
(15:08):
on the unpaid labourof of caring for carers from the carers.
And that this, this really needs tochange is isn't sustainable.
It's not sustainable on peoplein terms of their mental health,
their physical wellbeing, how they're ableto get by day to day financially
and that we really need to be thinkingof the two kind of hand-in-hand.
(15:28):
So I wondered if it's this thatcertainly resonated with us in the UK.
I want to say if that's something thatyou kind of equally recognised in Ireland?
Absolutely. Of course it is. Yeah.
I mean the thing about itis, is that I like to think of the caring.
Experience it.
You know, use a bit of a flow return.
But as kind of it's not just about oneor two or even three people,
(15:50):
it's about kind of a whole system aroundsomebody who requires support .
And it's it's always mutual.
It's it's always,you know, it's never one way.
It's everybody gets cared for.
Everybody caresfor lots of different people.
So whether, you know,you're a family member or friend
or a neighbour who's caring in that way.
Nine times out of tenthere will be some level of formal
(16:13):
or state support in some way,certainly in our lives anyway.
The whether that's, you know, homehelp or home care
or a service personnel assistance,there's usually some mix of that.
And if you discount one or the other,then that whole balance gets just shifted,
you know.
So it doesn't to me,it just doesn't make sense
(16:34):
not to think about everybodyin that relationship, the family,
the wider family, the person obviouslywho is in receipt of care at the centre
and then all of these other elementsaround that that creates that experience
where ideally people can livefor as long as possible with support
in their own homes, communitieswhere they've always been
or where they would like to stay,as long as that's their choice, you know.
(16:57):
And I think to do that, you needall of these different elements of care.
And so when you're thinkingabout trying to find ways to enable
people to do that, then you have to thinkabout all those different elements.
So to take one out of it,which is make it so imbalanced,
it would be like taking family carersout of the loop of care.
It is it just doesn'tkind of doesn't make any sense, you know,
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and a lot of people, you know, alot of people who are in receipt of care,
they don't necessarilyI always find it in speaking to people,
they don't necessarilywant all of their care
maybe to come from a family memberbecause their do you know,
they understand that family family members
need breaks, particularlywhen things are quite intensive.
And that's where then, you know,perhaps the more to use the term,
(17:39):
the more formal or, you know,the paid care, I suppose, comes into it
because it can get very, very intensive.
And, you know,you have an emotional link there
when it's a family memberthat can get quite intensive, you know.
So I think having breaks and that'swhere that that paid piece comes in.
I think I don't know if you agree,but that's how I see it.
(18:00):
Anyway. I completely agree.
And actually we have quite a lot ofconvincing data showing that there's
no way around, you know, the combinationof professional and informal care.
And, you know,
even if we wanted to try and replaceinformally care by professional care,
it would
actually be very, completely impossiblejust for financial reasons.
(18:22):
And the value of informal care in
Europe is so significant,so big that actually trying to replace
informally carersby care professionals would entail
more than doubling the current budgetdevoted to professional long term care,
which was which is completely impossiblebecause we're already struggling
(18:45):
to maintain the current budget for longterm care as is.
So yeah.
So we certainly need to maintainsome level of informal care into care mix.
But at the same time as it was mentionedby both of you earlier, we need to ensure
that informal care is and remainsa choice for informal carers as well.
(19:06):
So people should be able to chooseto what extent and whether they want to be
involved in provision of a bit of informallong term care in the first place.
And so we also need to invest
more proactively in the profession in longterm care, good quality, professional
long term care, and in particularin community based in-home
(19:28):
care in order to alleviatethe so-called burden.
I'm saying sobecause some some of my colleagues
don't like to speakabout the burden of informal care.
But but at least to ensurethat there are alternative options
to the provision of informal longterm care and the combination of the two.
(19:48):
So alternative options to informally careand support to informal carers
will create an ecosystemwhere people are able to decide
whether or notthey want to be informal carers
and to what extent
they want to be involved in the provisionof informal care, as I was saying before.
So that's reallywhat we're pushing for now.
(20:10):
And the strategy,the UK strategy explicitly recognises
the need of both options
and the need to boost both options.
But at the end of the day, you know,
we believe that informally careshould supplement
professional care and not the other wayround.
And unfortunately, many countries
(20:33):
at this stage
care systems
heavily relying on informally carersso that that.
Needs to be rebalanced.
That needs to be changed.
So again, the strategy providesa great tool to at least
guide member states towards
this rebalancing.
(20:54):
I think that is certainly a very to methat strikes me
as quite actually for a lot of memberstates quite a radical notion.
Is quite far from where we are today
to saythat people should have a free choice
whether they want to take on a caring roleor not.
And in particular,I think that would be quite radical
in its implicationsin terms of gender equality.
And that is a very strong themethat runs through through the strategy
(21:17):
that I think a lot of us would seeas one of its real strengths.
So I wondered,
what do you that to me that's really,really stood out.
Is it the need to redistributecaring responsibilities, both in terms
of the unpaid care, but also in termsof attracting men into the sector as well?
I definitely pick that outas one of the strengths of the strategy.
I wanted to put both of you
(21:39):
in the European perspectiveand within the Irish context.
So what you think would be some of the keystrengths of the strategy?
Sure, I'm happy to start.
So, yes,certainly the gender equality dimension is
is very strong,very prominent in the strategy.
The idea is, at least on the side ofthe commission is is fairly simple.
(21:59):
Informal care is a major barrier
to in terms of women's ability
to access the labour marketor at least good quality, full time jobs.
Many family carershave to reduce their working hours.
And of course, a typical informallycarer in Europe is a woman
usually between 45 and 75,so of working age.
(22:22):
So given the also the limited
remit of EU institutionsin the field of employment
and social affairs, it should also be saidit still belongs to Member States
to decide and and shape their policiesin those areas as they see fit.
But the role of the Commissionis to coordinate between Member States.
(22:44):
So the Commission is really tryingto use the policies where
it has more
power, let's say soeconomic governance, access to employment
as an instrument to boostor to promote gender equality.
So in that context,the strategy is indeed used to say, okay,
(23:05):
if we manage to rebalance
the provision of unpaid care,both childcare
and long term carebetween the collective and individuals,
then that will give more women a chanceto access the labour market.
But then, as I said before, again,we need what, whether we like it or not,
(23:25):
will need to maintaina share of unpaid care in the mix.
And so another way of boosting genderequality is also
to improve working conditionsin professional care.
So to make sure that also more men
are attracted tothe sector, because obviously
(23:48):
the idea is that if you
improve salaries, if you improve training
and working conditions generally,you know,
more men will be attracted toto join the sector.
So the strategy the strategy also includes
quite a lot of of objectives or principles
(24:08):
around around these targets.
And we can expect that indeed memberstates and again,
by and large, all European states
will probably take more initiativesin those areas in the future.
Yeah,I mean from from an Irish perspective
and from from my perspective,I, I love data
(24:32):
and this is where the research bitof my policy and research role comes in.
And there's I was really pleasedto see a kind of a focus on data on,
you know,
monitoring, on gathering information,on an onus on member states to actually
review targets and look at thingsand make sure that that, you know,
the targets are being reachedand that the work is being done.
(24:53):
And for me, from a policy level,you just have to have that built
into any sort of policy actionplan or anything that's related to
honestly anything that stretches anything.
You know,that's a very broad thing for me to make.
But that was I think that'sone of the biggest weaknesses that we have
in Ireland.
We have lots of great policies on paper
(25:16):
and we a previous senator, Senator
Kent, her, she's no longer a senator,but she was fantastic
and did a lot of a lot of workin disability care in Ireland, in our
in our national government.
And she once said to me that Ireland hasan implementation deficit disorder.
And I just really liked that phrasebecause it just shows,
you know, we've got great stuff on paper,
(25:37):
but the implementation of it can fall downsometimes, you know, when governments
change when.
National frameworks change.
And I think having a focus on monitoring
and on evaluationand on data gathering at an EU level
which obviously spans, you know, a lotlonger than our national governments.
I think that's so helpful.
I think it's so important for any planlike this to have that kind of built in
(26:01):
is so important because without evidence,we can't know what we're doing well,
we can't know what's being whatwe can learn from other member states.
And that's part of the whole point of ofthe EU is to work, is working together
and learningfrom the different member states
and finding out, okay, you know,that's fantastic over there.
Maybe we canmaybe you can replicate that here.
So I think that
(26:21):
for me was one of the biggest strengthsthat immediately jumped out to me.
There's lots of great stuff in it,you know, but I think,
you know, like I say, it's, you know,implementation is the key on this.
You know, having it written on papercan only go so far for the actual
to making an impact on individualfamilies, lives and individuals.
And that's the whole point of stufflike this is to have impact.
(26:42):
So without the evaluation, you know, howare you going to know what the impact is?
So that for me was one of the biggerstrengths of of the strategy.
I think the point you make aboutimplementation is, is absolutely key is
and I think a cynic could say,well, it's all very well
and good to have these strategies on paperthat they sound.
They've got their very lofty aspirations.
(27:04):
But what's the what's what difference isit actually going to make to somebody
in real life on the ground?
And so I guess I guess I would say,see that that sort of implementation
deficit disorder, is that somethingyou recognise kind of across Europe,
all the other countries?
Do you think that has made muchmore progress in terms of actually making,
you know, translating aspirations on paperinto action on the ground
(27:28):
that we might be able to learn from?
Yes, certainly.
I mean,
generally speaking, I'd say thatNordic countries or Western European
countries have probably been betteror more active in the sector
compared to other countries in Europe.
But again, we have good hopes that nowwith the strategy
that we change for various reasons,and I'll get to that in a second.
(27:49):
But first of all, let me say that,you know,
the fact that we now have an EUstrategy is not nothing.
I mean, it's a major achievementin, quite frankly, on our side.
It took us more than 15 yearsactually to convince member states
in collaboration with the Commission,that there was an added value
in having a coordinated approachon long term care at European level.
(28:13):
So I mean, you know, it'snot easy to convince 27 member states
to sit down together at the same tableto discuss common objectives.
And now we have reached this point.
But obviously,you know, as it was said by you
in that and I agree, the strategy is,at the end of the day, own your strategy.
It's ayou know, it's a compass, it's a plan.
(28:36):
It sets a direction.
But now we we are yet to see how
that will be interpreted by member states,of course.
Now I believe the strategy
could change a lot in terms of the gaps
when it comes to the implementationacross Member States and across Europe,
again, for various reasons besides the,
(28:58):
you know, the list of commonobjectives and common principles .
First of all,the strategy is accompanied by by funding,
which is always a very nice
incentive for member statesand stakeholders to try and comply,
at least with theor try and achieve the objectives.
So for example,
through the Structural Funds,Member States
(29:20):
will be able to access
additional financial supportas long as they can demonstrate
that they are doing their bestto implement the strategy.
The same applies to stakeholders
and to some extent also outside of the EU.
The Commission is also puttingquite a lot of money in, for example,
(29:44):
new research projectsto collect additional data about,
amongst other things, the situationand needs of informal carers and
the identification
also of potentially goodor promising practises.
So this is something for all of usto to keep an eye on.
And then the strategy is also
(30:05):
also entails that Member States will have
to submit every yearnational action plans to monitor
developmentand to keep track of of progress.
And again, this isthis is a voluntary process,
but it's it's naming and shamingkind of exercise.
(30:26):
Obviously, that means that every year
member stateswill probably meet, discuss progress.
And those member states who have even doneso much maybe to implement
the strategy will bediplomatically reminded by the Commission
and fellow Member States of the need to,you know,
(30:47):
to do more.
And again,that's that's that's very useful
when again, bearing in mind the limited
role of
of institutions in those in those areas.
So again, the strategy, you know,I don't mean to sound
too optimistic or naively optimistic,
(31:10):
but it certainly holds the potential toto make a big difference.
Thanks, Stacey.
And thinking about putting togetherthe National Action
Plan in Ireland,so what will that process look like?
Who will be some of the key peoplewho'll be involved?
What do you thinkmight be some of the quick wins
that you might be able toto make progress on?
(31:32):
And what do you thinkmight be in Ireland's some of the trickier
areas or the basicgoing to be just much more challenging.
To answer your first question, whowill be involved and what would it entail?
I actually don't know.
I'm looking forward to finding out whatit's going to look like because we like
I said, we've had a national care strategyhere in the last ten years
and it's really due for a renewal.
(31:54):
So I don't know, like it didn't have.
It didn't have.
I'm a big fan of policies,having strategies,
having a start date, an enddate, a budget and an implementation plan.
I think if you don't
have those sort of three or four things,you know, it's it's heightened to nothing.
To use a phrase that we used in Ireland
here, you're not goingto get much traction on it.
So I do hope that the the action plans
(32:17):
will tie in to our national care strategyor that they can be they can overlap,
you know, to try and make it a bitmore efficient.
You know, let's notlet's not do too many things.
Let's not have to do two or threedifferent things at once.
But I would love to.
See someone in Irelandhave the, the main responsibility
for caring and family carers in general.
(32:37):
It kind of now it fits easilyin our political kind of policy landscape.
It sits mostly through older persons,but then you know, then
you know, to disability and then you have,you know, I mean, so it's it's an
it's an uneasy mixin Ireland of where it might fit.
So I really don't know how that'sgoing to be managed. I,
I do think that some
(32:59):
of them the the quick again, quick wins.
I'm always I was sceptical of that termwhen it comes to policy because.
So that's quick.
I mean I hate how long policy takes,you know, change takes,
but when things are done quickly,I was kind of go, oh, they don't.
Well, like, are they done with the rightkind of frame of mind, you know?
And I think, you know, there'sthere's a lot of stuff within the strategy
(33:20):
that actually Ireland
is kind of already doingor is in the process of doing
work life balanceand that kind of stuff as well.
So, you know,I think some of those will be will kind of
be encouraged to be finished, openand in place a little bit faster.
Um, but again,like a simple thing about that
is that we have a piece of legislationin, in Ireland, it's the carers leave
(33:42):
and it basically enables a personto take two years,
up to two years of leavefrom their employment.
Their job is kind of kept for themto go back to after they finish caring
and then they geta, you know, a social benefit,
you know, to keep them out of poverty
while they're there caring for someonewho has an illness or a disability.
(34:06):
And the take up on that is super,super low and we don't really know why
in Ireland.
So I do kind of wonder going, okay,well what's, what's that about?
And how is that going to map on tothe work life balance?
Is there what's the appetite?
You know, how how's that going to work?
So I really don't know,to be honest with you.
I don't know.
It's it's it's it's shiftinglandscape in Irish politics at the moment.
(34:26):
And, you know,we have a coalition in Ireland
that's our major you know, governmentparties are all in coalition together.
So there's kind of lotsof big personalities, lots of big,
you know,policy issues that are being worked out.
So I just I just don't know.
I think some of the challenges will beI think one of the kind of preparation
(34:47):
I kind of the one that really stuck outto me is looking at
the kind of how services are providedand making those changes.
So there's there's a point in thein the strategy I just picked it out
was like making the services accessiblemeans that different working time patterns
might require care at atypical hours,for example, for shift or night workers.
And I can see that being a real challengefrom a kind of a home care
(35:11):
perspective in Ireland, because in generalit's very difficult to get overnight
night time home care and it can happen,but it's very, very rare.
It's usually between the hours of 8 a.m.and 8 p.m.
AM. Weekends might be a bit trickyas well by the staff.
So then you're kind of backto encouraging staff
in to the sector, making it more,you know, appealing.
(35:32):
So I think that's that to meis a challenge and I think a lot of it's
going to be challenging,but that's no harm.
I think if things are too easy,
are you then really pushingthe boundary of what can be done?
Thanks, Terry.
So I think you pick up on areally important point there,
which is about making surethat there are good measures to say that
unpaid carers can havea really healthy work life balance
(35:56):
to make sure that juggling those differentresponsibilities in their life
less and less stressful, really.
So I want you to to ask youabout what you both thought
about what might potentiallybe one of the weaknesses in the strategy.
And that's where theyit focuses too heavily
on unpaid carers of working age.
I think often the conversationcan be kind of focussed around
(36:18):
employment and providing unpaid carers.
We've seen as as a barrierto being a productive citizen
and I wonder if this is kind of a bit ofan instrumental way of looking at things
and if we might want to sort of framethe issue a bit differently?
Yes. Well, first of all, again,let me reiterate
that the strategy from our perspectivewhen it comes to unpaid carers.
(36:42):
So the group the groupI represent is extremely comprehensive.
Quite frankly, the commission did manageto take pretty much all of the right boxes
in terms of the,you know, what the strategy includes
when it comes to what needs to be doneto support informal carers.
The strategy calls on Member Statesto do three things essentially.
(37:04):
First of all, put in place instrumentsto identify and recognise informal carers.
Secondly, develop support mechanisms,
access to information,
training, counselling, respite,
the need to improve collaborationbetween informal and professional carers.
(37:24):
And then last but not least,the need to provide unpaid carers
with financial support.
So as you can see, it's a very impressive
and very good list of at least
ambitions.
But but you're right, obviously,nothing is perfect.
And there are weaknesses
in the strategy.
And the main one from our perspective
(37:46):
relates againto the mandate of the commission.
We we think the fact thathe only has a limited limited.
So we mandate in the areas of employmentand social affairs.
And it's it concerns the factthat the strategy primarily focuses
on carers of working ageor informal carers who wish to combine
(38:09):
caregiving responsibilitieswith professional responsibilities.
And that comes at the expense of
young carers who are still
completely invisible
on the EU policy agendas or older carers.
And these people obviouslyalso need support and they need to
(38:33):
and they deserve recognition and, andwe need to address their needs as well.
So we are trying to encourage obviously
the commission, but also throughthe implementation, implementation
of the strategy, we will ensure
to support Member States
(38:53):
so that the expensemay be the scope of the measures
they are planning to put in place to these
subgroups of of informal carers as well.
So that's one very clear weakness.
Then in the runup to the launch of the of the strategy,
(39:14):
high level EU officials in charge of
of the dossier mentionedseveral possible options
that we expected to be more prominentlyincluded in the strategy.
And then finally they are mentionedbut only in passing.
For example, the need to
to ensure that the time spent providingcare to a loved
(39:36):
one is also taken into considerationthe calculation of pension credits.
That's a very important supportmeasures of measures
that could or should be put in place
to supporting family carers.
And that's particularly,particularly important to gain
in the context of gender equalityand the gender pension gap.
(39:59):
So we are also working hardwith the Commission
and in the future with Member Statesto ensure that these
measuresare also part of the package. Yes.
And then again, I mentioned the need to
to provide financial supportto informal carers.
It's still interestingto see that in the strategy
(40:22):
when the Commission calls on Member Statesto provide this financial support.
The Commission adds as long as it does
not deter informal carersfrom accessing the labour market.
Which shows that the assumption is still
that if we provide two
too many support measuresto informal carers
(40:44):
and certainly financial support,some people may prefer
to actually stay at homeand take care of a loved one
rather than having an active,professional life.
And obviously, this is completelyI mean, the best evidence
that we disposal shows the exact opposite.
(41:05):
Obviously, most carers, when presented
with the possibility to receive good,
you know, a good level of support,including financial support,
still preferred to maintain an active
social and professional life obviously.
So, you know, there's still quitea lot of a lot of work to be done
(41:25):
in convincing policymakersand changing mindsets
and addressing this
false assumptionthat if we provide too much support
for family carers, that we come at the,you know, the detriment of all of
their
moneymakingactivities or their willingness
(41:46):
to be productive citizens,as you phrased it, Becky.
So great step forward with the strategy,
but the battle is not entirely over yet.
Still a few things that need to be made,
that need to be tweaked,I suppose, as we implement the strategy.
And from your perspective, sorry.
(42:06):
Would you agree with some of those issuesthat Stacey raised in terms of what
might be missing or what might be framedin a slightly problematic way?
Yes, I have said it.
I was I was biting my lip,
not because I disagree with anythingyou said, just to be clear,
but that that term in particular,productive member of society,
I think is one of the most dangerous it'sone of the most dangerous things in this.
(42:30):
When we're talking about thisbecause by saying
I'm not I'm not calling you on that,
because that's the terminologythat's so often used.
You know, it's kind of like,you know, well,
you can be a carer so long as eventuallyyou're going to want to go back in
and make money for somebody, right?
Like that's that's the end game here.
And it's like in some ways,like what is what is more productive
(42:51):
than ensuringthat someone is content and happy
and that you are as well as a person,not as a not as a potential worker,
but as a personand as a family that that works for you.
So I really you know, it's it's dangerousto give me a platform,
so I'm really not going toI could go on for a long time about that.
And so I'll save you all from that.
(43:13):
But I do think that's in general,I always get concerned when I see that
when I see the focus on,
you know , working agebecause again, like Stacey said, it
gets rid of inattention as so vitallyimportant around young carers.
It is a way, it's, you know, ittakes, kind of takes older carers
(43:33):
and particularly carers who are in therewho are caring for each other,
if you know what I mean.
Like that, that idea that you areeither cared for or you are a carer
is so problematic because it kind of,it has this duality to it
that it has this kind of binarythinking to it,
that I'm really not a fan of binarythinking anyway.
But in this case it's
(43:54):
so dangerous because it's the ideathat you can't be disabled and be a carer,
you can't be older and be a carer,you can't.
And you know, in my bioI specifically said about that idea
of intersectionality because you can be
so many different thingsand being a carer is one section of it
and it's about trying to figure outbalance between
all of those that work for for the personand for the family in general.
(44:16):
So I always have a real issuewhat there's,
there's, you know, and it comes off upit comes up all over the place.
You know, this is not just an EU strategy,you know, issue.
It's certainly comes up,you know, a lot of the time.
Say, for example, you know, funding callsfor supports for organisations
in Ireland are so often,you know, it's funding
for people of working age to enable themto go back to get into the labour market .
(44:40):
You know, this is a real focus on thatand a lot of family carers don't like that
because and rightly so, because it kind ofit gives the insinuation that
well you're not really working,you're not really being productive,
you're not really a part of society,you're not really doing this
because you're not, you know, actuallyworking , you know, and it's like, okay,
you, you, you be oncall for a sick person 24 hours
(45:03):
a day, seven days a weekand see how much work it is, you know?
So it's just it's a language thing.
It's a terminology thing, maybe.
But I think it's so importantbecause it kind of it
hints at where the value isis really put in society
so that that aspect of itis quite problematic for me.
So I agree with I agree with whateverybody said, but I just that that idea
(45:23):
of a productive member of societyand almost divorcing
that from being a familycarer is so problematic.
I think.
And I think it comes back to that,that broader point
that you were making earlier about about.
What we value.
And I think you can seeperhaps low levels of pay
and poor working conditions is kindof a reflection of how little value
(45:45):
society puts on this really,really important work
and kind of the consequences that has forpeople's well-being as a result.
So I'd just like to say a massivethank you to both of you for joining us.
It's been a real pleasureto talk to you today.
I guess finally,other kind of any final reflections
you'd like to offer on the strategyand before we wrap up?
(46:07):
Yes. Well,
I would say
that even though you're based inpresumably in the UK,
if you're listening to this podcast,keep an eye on the strategy.
I think the strategy can be a useful tooland a useful inspiration
to also encourage your own government
(46:28):
to be more active on the topic.
Also, it's always usefulto learn from other member states
and I know obviouslythe Centre for Care is very active
and instrumental in that regard. So well.
So yeah, keep an eye on the strategyand obviously we'll do our best to
keep you informed, informed as well.
So thanks again for the opportunityto speak about the strategy today
(46:50):
and looking forward to the next stepsof our collective work then.
Yeah, so Stacey just kind of saideverything I was going to say,
to be quite honest with you.
So I don't really have much else to us,except I definitely would agree.
You know,
I think one of the one of the big benefitsof being part of the EU
and part of this kind of,you know, you know,
(47:11):
national international groupslike Eurocrats, for example,
you know, we're we're Carolines,we're a member of Europe.
CARES has been so beneficial
to learn from other placesand other people at other member states
and see what works really, really well,but also what doesn't work well.
You know,I think sometimes we focus a little bit
too much onwe have to learn for what's good.
And I actually you almost learn more fromwhat's not been working
(47:33):
or has worked in the pastand is now no longer fit for purpose.
And I think, for example, our our Irishstrategy, it felt like it was really great
when it when it came out in 2012,but it's a relic of its time now know.
So I think that's really importantto keep that in mind going ahead is that,
you know, there's no we can kind of moveand shift and move with the times.
And I think the strategy, I think,is a good starting place for that.
(47:55):
Maybe particularlywhen you take into consideration
that hopefully the monitoring reportsfrom the individual member states
may be available for us to to look atand that that way then
that would be a really greatto be able to see from other places
what people are doingand how things are being done.
So you and I just want to againsay, you know, thanks for
for the opportunity to come along.
It's been it's been great, actually.
(48:16):
So thank you for that.
And perhaps we'll have and perhaps we'llhave you back on again in five years time
celebrating the enormous progresswe've made across the EU.
And I hope I'll be able to say thathere in the UK we've also learnt a lot
and implemented lots of measuresthat would improve people's wellbeing.
So great. Thank you very much.
The Care Matters podcast is
brought to youby the ESRC Centre for Care and CIRCLE,
the Centre for International Researchon Care, Labour
and Equalities.
In this series,
our researcherswelcome experts in the field
and those giving or receiving careto discuss crucial issues in social care.
(00:28):
As we collectively attemptto make a positive difference to how care
is experienced and provided.
Hello and welcome everyone to this episode
of the Care Matters podcast serieshosted by the Centre for Care.
(00:49):
My name is Becky Driscolland I'm one of the research associates
at the Centre which is hostedby the University of Sheffield.
So my role is focussed on making surethat we use our evidence
to influence policy acrossall four nations of the UK.
So often this means respondingto government consultations,
parliamentary enquiriesand really looking for opportunities
(01:12):
to shape the public debateon what care looks like.
So I'm really excited that this episodeis going to focus on the European Union
Care Strategy, which was formally adoptedin December 2022.
Now, while the UK is obviously no longera member of the European Union
at the Centre for Care, we're very keento have an international perspective
(01:35):
and indeed we've got lotsof international research partners
that we look to workwith really collaboratively.
And it's really important, all of usat the centre that we look to learn
from new approaches in different countriesaround the world as much as possible.
So this episode, I'm really delighted towelcome two
excellent guests to talk to me todayabout the EU Care Strategy.
So we're joined by Stecy Yghemonosand Zoe Hughes, really looking forward
(01:59):
to great conversation todayby means of introduction.
Staceyis the Executive Director of Eurocarers,
which is a European network working withand for informal or unpaid carers.
Eurocarers brings togetherover 70 organisations from 25 countries
around Europewho work collectively together to ensure
(02:21):
that the growing care needsof the European population are addressed
in a universal and equitable way,and that the vital contribution
that carers make is valuesrecognised and supported.
Zoe is a senior policy and researchofficer working for Care Alliance Ireland,
which is a national network
of voluntary organisationssupporting family carers in Ireland.
(02:43):
She joined the organisation in 2015with qualifications in social work,
social policy and Disability Studies,and she's previously worked
with a number of different academicand voluntary sector organisations.
So she's particularly interestedin the topic of diversity
with caring along with inclusiveand participatory research methods.
(03:04):
She coordinates policy and researchfunctions of Caroline's Ireland,
and she's written
an award winning discussion paper serieswhich aims to bring together
less discussedand perhaps more challenging topics
forward for consideration by professionalswho support family carers.
She also somehow manages to find the timeto undertake her doctoral work
(03:24):
at University College Cork, where she'sfocussing on the topic of family care
within the LGBTQ community.
So with no further ado,I'll perhaps come to you first, Stecy,
and it would be great if you could
perhaps give us a bit of backgroundto the EU Care Strategy.
So if you could summarise for usbriefly what it's all about
(03:46):
and why it's come about in 2022.
Sure. Hello, everyone.
And first of all, thanks for having meas a contributor to the series.
So the European care strategywas put forward, as you said, by
the Commission actually a few months agoalready, but it was formally approved
earlier in December.
(04:08):
So it is a proposalput forward with two main objectives.
The first one is to boost accessto good quality, affordable
and accessible care servicesacross the EU.
And the second objectiveis to improve working conditions
and work life balance for carers,both professional and informal.
(04:28):
So the strategy has a lifecourse perspective and so it focuses
both on child care and long term care,even though, of course
our focus is primarily on on long termcare.
For those of us who are familiarwith the decision making process.
The strategy
(04:49):
package actually consistsof a new communication
and two proposalsfor council recommendations
respectively on childcare and long term care,
both of which have been endorsedby Member States very recently.
And for those of our listenerswho are not familiar with EU jargon,
(05:10):
communications essentially serve to definethe context for action programmes
and future policies and recommendationsare used to suggest a line of action
without imposing any legal obligationon Member States.
In other words, none of these instruments.
So the package,the strategy package is actually
(05:32):
not binding on member states.
Having said that, Member Statesare usually expected
to oblige to the suggestions made.
As part of council recommendationsin as I said, these recommendations
were approvedby member states a couple of weeks ago.
If I may, I just want
to build on what you said earlierin your introduction regarding the impact
(05:56):
of Brexit and the fact that, of coursethe UK is not part of the Union anymore.
What we see based on, on
our experience is an observerof the EU decision making process,
but also as a contributor wherever we canis that usually these strategies
and these initiatives,they tend to inspire action beyond the EU.
(06:19):
So for example, Norway recently
developed a national carers strategy
and it's a direct by-product of the UKstrategy.
We know also, based on previousinitiatives related to care and caring,
a new level that the British Governmentalso kept a close eye
on those developmentsand maybe was also inspired
(06:42):
to to develop,you know, similar initiatives.
Now, the strategy came about,
in my view, for two main reasons.
The first one is, of course,the fact that due to demographic, ageing
and increased longevity in Europe,
we see a growing prevalence of agerelated diseases, chronic diseases,
(07:04):
a growing demand for care and as a result,
a pretty thorny challenge
in terms of the sustainabilityand the quality of our care services.
And these challenges concernpretty much the entire continent.
So certainly all of the EU member states.
So they there is an added value in havingsome sort of a coordination mechanism
(07:29):
on on caring, caring European level.
The second reason,of course, is the pandemic,
which has really acted as a catalyst
by shedding light on the many limitations
and weaknesses of our care systems,and then therefore
also on the urgencyof reinforcing these these services.
(07:50):
So the the commission proposal,the package is a direct response
to calls from various stakeholders,including European parliaments, civil
society organisations, social partners,but also national regional governments.
The the strategy does not meanthat all countries are expected
(08:11):
to put the exact same policiesand support measures in place.
But at least the strategy is a tool
to ensure that all relevant objectives
are pursued by all relevant actors
on both formaland informal long term care.
So the strategy is a great milestone,we believe, for the future of care
(08:34):
and caring in Europe.
It's very timely, actually.
There's been a lot of focus on
what needs to change in social careacross all four nations of the UK.
So in Scotland obviously a real pushto develop a national care service.
Wales, lots of initiativesto improve working conditions.
And in Westminster, House of Lords reportlooking at social care
(08:59):
and trying to really reframe it, thinkingabout making sure for unpaid carers
that it's a real genuine choiceto want to care for their loved one.
That's something they're forced to doby a lack of availability of services
and also making sure that that social caresupport is seen as an enabler, something
the title of the reportis A Gloriously Ordinary Life,
(09:21):
and I think that's a really inspiringwell, it's an ordinary
but inspiring vision that I think lots
of people across the sectorvery enthusiastic signed up to.
So the timing of it, I thinkeven as you say, we're not a member state,
I think hopefully there is the opportunityto learn from
what's going on acrossmany different European countries.
And I guess Zoe from your perspectiveit'll be really interesting
(09:44):
to hear in the Irish contextwhat is the added value that that Stecy
talked about, that having an EU widestrategy brings as opposed to kind of
everybody, different countries
just going off and doing their own thing,cycle strategies.
So again, just, you know,this is the first time I'm speaking,
so thank you very much for having me alongand I really appreciate it.
(10:04):
And coming
from the Irish perspective, you know,we've had a national care strategy here
that focuses on family carers,which is the term
we use in Ireland on family carersfor the last ten years know.
So it's for us it's really goodto see something at a European level
that we can use to build onwhat we've done before
and what has been in placein an Irish context.
(10:26):
A lot of the a lot of the actionsthat were in our national care
strategy
are kind of part of the European strategyor they're, they're, you know, they're
they're third links, if you don't mind,or they're very similar.
So it's really good to see that.
But also as a policy officer, you know, I.
Want to be able to usethe European strategy to be able to show,
okay, you know, we're doing well,you know, on a policy level,
(10:49):
but we need to keep going with it.
We need to keep pushing.
And I always like to
I like to call it ammunition, and I knowthat's quite an aggressive term.
But all of these policiesthat I can draw upon in my discussions
and working towardschanging the services on the ground
is really, really helpfulbecause I think a lot of it
you kind of have to push from the topdown on policy to get this the bottom
(11:11):
up services working well for family carersand for those that they care for.
So from that perspective,that's the real for us in Ireland anyway.
That's how I see the real addedvalue of the EU care strategy.
And again, it kind of goesa little bit of a way as well
to increasing that recognition of the workthat family carers do
just on a daily basis,which I think is really, really important.
(11:33):
You know, we can't focus on that too muchbecause it could be an awful lot of
lip service, you know,
there can be an awful lot ofwell we have a policies in that case,
you know, and the whole point of it
then is to figure out waysto action that policy,
which is a big bugbear of minewhen it comes to policies in general,
you know, we can have great stuffon paper, but it's about actioning them.
And that's kind of where I always tryand put
(11:53):
my focus is on the atthe actioning of those at a local level.
So anything we can do to put that pressureon our local and national actors
of policy makers is so, so helpful,which is why it was so great to see this.
And you remind me and no one terminologyis important for all of our listeners.
So here in the UKand at the Centre for Care,
(12:15):
I wouldn't say necessarily that everybodyis using the same terminology
consistently all the time,but certainly we tend to talk about unpaid
carers to distinguish peoplewho are caring for a partner
or family member,perhaps a friend or a neighbour,
as opposed tosomebody who's a care worker.
They said it's their job, their ployby an agency to go and support somebody.
Where is this?
(12:36):
The EU
strategy talks about informal,
informal carers and so you just mentionedthe language of family carers.
So I would, if I can come to youto say a little bit about the language
in the care strategyand what's meant by that those times.
Sure.
And this is a very important point indeed.
So we speak about the informal carers,
usually colleagues in Irelandspeak about family carers indeed.
(12:57):
And in the UKwe speak about unpaid carers.
We're essentiallytalking about the same people.
So family members, friends or neighbourswho provides
what we say in our definitionof usually unpaid
long termcare to a person with a disability,
a chronic diseaseor any other long lasting care needs,
or could be an addiction, for example,outside of a professional context.
(13:22):
So why do we speak about family carersat the EU level?
Simply because at this stagethe majority of the existing legislation
in EU level, certainly international levelis well, for example, the W.H.O.
or the OECD.
Well, that
legislation tends to referto informal care or informal carers.
(13:44):
So in order to avoid confusion,
we tend to stick to that
wording just in passing.
Based on the definitionI just shared with you, it is very clear
there's actually no easy or no perfect
terminology, informal care.
(14:04):
Well, there's some of my colleaguesquite rightly would say
that there's nothing informalby the informal care.
It's very demanding and very intensewhen you speak about family care.
Well, what about friends and neighboursand unpaid care?
Nowadays in some countries, in regions,
(14:25):
informal carers have accessto some form of financial support.
So I mean, none of these
wordings
is really meetingor ticking all of the boxes
of the definitions.
So unfortunately, there'sno there's no perfect terminology.
Exactly.
(14:46):
And I thinkwhatever time analogy we use, for me,
one of the real strength of the strategyis that it makes it very, very clear
that we can't look at either unpaid carersor care workers in isolation,
the two sides of the same coin,and that actually
most member states, if not all acrossEurope, have relied far too much
(15:08):
on the unpaid labourof of caring for carers from the carers.
And that this, this really needs tochange is isn't sustainable.
It's not sustainable on peoplein terms of their mental health,
their physical wellbeing, how they're ableto get by day to day financially
and that we really need to be thinkingof the two kind of hand-in-hand.
(15:28):
So I wondered if it's this thatcertainly resonated with us in the UK.
I want to say if that's something thatyou kind of equally recognised in Ireland?
Absolutely. Of course it is. Yeah.
I mean the thing about itis, is that I like to think of the caring.
Experience it.
You know, use a bit of a flow return.
But as kind of it's not just about oneor two or even three people,
(15:50):
it's about kind of a whole system aroundsomebody who requires support .
And it's it's always mutual.
It's it's always,you know, it's never one way.
It's everybody gets cared for.
Everybody caresfor lots of different people.
So whether, you know,you're a family member or friend
or a neighbour who's caring in that way.
Nine times out of tenthere will be some level of formal
(16:13):
or state support in some way,certainly in our lives anyway.
The whether that's, you know, homehelp or home care
or a service personnel assistance,there's usually some mix of that.
And if you discount one or the other,then that whole balance gets just shifted,
you know.
So it doesn't to me,it just doesn't make sense
(16:34):
not to think about everybodyin that relationship, the family,
the wider family, the person obviouslywho is in receipt of care at the centre
and then all of these other elementsaround that that creates that experience
where ideally people can livefor as long as possible with support
in their own homes, communitieswhere they've always been
or where they would like to stay,as long as that's their choice, you know.
(16:57):
And I think to do that, you needall of these different elements of care.
And so when you're thinkingabout trying to find ways to enable
people to do that, then you have to thinkabout all those different elements.
So to take one out of it,which is make it so imbalanced,
it would be like taking family carersout of the loop of care.
It is it just doesn'tkind of doesn't make any sense, you know,
(17:17):
and a lot of people, you know, alot of people who are in receipt of care,
they don't necessarilyI always find it in speaking to people,
they don't necessarilywant all of their care
maybe to come from a family memberbecause their do you know,
they understand that family family members
need breaks, particularlywhen things are quite intensive.
And that's where then, you know,perhaps the more to use the term,
(17:39):
the more formal or, you know,the paid care, I suppose, comes into it
because it can get very, very intensive.
And, you know,you have an emotional link there
when it's a family memberthat can get quite intensive, you know.
So I think having breaks and that'swhere that that paid piece comes in.
I think I don't know if you agree,but that's how I see it.
(18:00):
Anyway. I completely agree.
And actually we have quite a lot ofconvincing data showing that there's
no way around, you know, the combinationof professional and informal care.
And, you know,
even if we wanted to try and replaceinformally care by professional care,
it would
actually be very, completely impossiblejust for financial reasons.
(18:22):
And the value of informal care in
Europe is so significant,so big that actually trying to replace
informally carersby care professionals would entail
more than doubling the current budgetdevoted to professional long term care,
which was which is completely impossiblebecause we're already struggling
(18:45):
to maintain the current budget for longterm care as is.
So yeah.
So we certainly need to maintainsome level of informal care into care mix.
But at the same time as it was mentionedby both of you earlier, we need to ensure
that informal care is and remainsa choice for informal carers as well.
(19:06):
So people should be able to chooseto what extent and whether they want to be
involved in provision of a bit of informallong term care in the first place.
And so we also need to invest
more proactively in the profession in longterm care, good quality, professional
long term care, and in particularin community based in-home
(19:28):
care in order to alleviatethe so-called burden.
I'm saying sobecause some some of my colleagues
don't like to speakabout the burden of informal care.
But but at least to ensurethat there are alternative options
to the provision of informal longterm care and the combination of the two.
(19:48):
So alternative options to informally careand support to informal carers
will create an ecosystemwhere people are able to decide
whether or notthey want to be informal carers
and to what extent
they want to be involved in the provisionof informal care, as I was saying before.
So that's reallywhat we're pushing for now.
(20:10):
And the strategy,the UK strategy explicitly recognises
the need of both options
and the need to boost both options.
But at the end of the day, you know,
we believe that informally careshould supplement
professional care and not the other wayround.
And unfortunately, many countries
(20:33):
at this stage
care systems
heavily relying on informally carersso that that.
Needs to be rebalanced.
That needs to be changed.
So again, the strategy providesa great tool to at least
guide member states towards
this rebalancing.
(20:54):
I think that is certainly a very to methat strikes me
as quite actually for a lot of memberstates quite a radical notion.
Is quite far from where we are today
to saythat people should have a free choice
whether they want to take on a caring roleor not.
And in particular,I think that would be quite radical
in its implicationsin terms of gender equality.
And that is a very strong themethat runs through through the strategy
(21:17):
that I think a lot of us would seeas one of its real strengths.
So I wondered,
what do you that to me that's really,really stood out.
Is it the need to redistributecaring responsibilities, both in terms
of the unpaid care, but also in termsof attracting men into the sector as well?
I definitely pick that outas one of the strengths of the strategy.
I wanted to put both of you
(21:39):
in the European perspectiveand within the Irish context.
So what you think would be some of the keystrengths of the strategy?
Sure, I'm happy to start.
So, yes,certainly the gender equality dimension is
is very strong,very prominent in the strategy.
The idea is, at least on the side ofthe commission is is fairly simple.
(21:59):
Informal care is a major barrier
to in terms of women's ability
to access the labour marketor at least good quality, full time jobs.
Many family carershave to reduce their working hours.
And of course, a typical informallycarer in Europe is a woman
usually between 45 and 75,so of working age.
(22:22):
So given the also the limited
remit of EU institutionsin the field of employment
and social affairs, it should also be saidit still belongs to Member States
to decide and and shape their policiesin those areas as they see fit.
But the role of the Commissionis to coordinate between Member States.
(22:44):
So the Commission is really tryingto use the policies where
it has more
power, let's say soeconomic governance, access to employment
as an instrument to boostor to promote gender equality.
So in that context,the strategy is indeed used to say, okay,
(23:05):
if we manage to rebalance
the provision of unpaid care,both childcare
and long term carebetween the collective and individuals,
then that will give more women a chanceto access the labour market.
But then, as I said before, again,we need what, whether we like it or not,
(23:25):
will need to maintaina share of unpaid care in the mix.
And so another way of boosting genderequality is also
to improve working conditionsin professional care.
So to make sure that also more men
are attracted tothe sector, because obviously
(23:48):
the idea is that if you
improve salaries, if you improve training
and working conditions generally,you know,
more men will be attracted toto join the sector.
So the strategy the strategy also includes
quite a lot of of objectives or principles
(24:08):
around around these targets.
And we can expect that indeed memberstates and again,
by and large, all European states
will probably take more initiativesin those areas in the future.
Yeah,I mean from from an Irish perspective
and from from my perspective,I, I love data
(24:32):
and this is where the research bitof my policy and research role comes in.
And there's I was really pleasedto see a kind of a focus on data on,
you know,
monitoring, on gathering information,on an onus on member states to actually
review targets and look at thingsand make sure that that, you know,
the targets are being reachedand that the work is being done.
(24:53):
And for me, from a policy level,you just have to have that built
into any sort of policy actionplan or anything that's related to
honestly anything that stretches anything.
You know,that's a very broad thing for me to make.
But that was I think that'sone of the biggest weaknesses that we have
in Ireland.
We have lots of great policies on paper
(25:16):
and we a previous senator, Senator
Kent, her, she's no longer a senator,but she was fantastic
and did a lot of a lot of workin disability care in Ireland, in our
in our national government.
And she once said to me that Ireland hasan implementation deficit disorder.
And I just really liked that phrasebecause it just shows,
you know, we've got great stuff on paper,
(25:37):
but the implementation of it can fall downsometimes, you know, when governments
change when.
National frameworks change.
And I think having a focus on monitoring
and on evaluationand on data gathering at an EU level
which obviously spans, you know, a lotlonger than our national governments.
I think that's so helpful.
I think it's so important for any planlike this to have that kind of built in
(26:01):
is so important because without evidence,we can't know what we're doing well,
we can't know what's being whatwe can learn from other member states.
And that's part of the whole point of ofthe EU is to work, is working together
and learningfrom the different member states
and finding out, okay, you know,that's fantastic over there.
Maybe we canmaybe you can replicate that here.
So I think that
(26:21):
for me was one of the biggest strengthsthat immediately jumped out to me.
There's lots of great stuff in it,you know, but I think,
you know, like I say, it's, you know,implementation is the key on this.
You know, having it written on papercan only go so far for the actual
to making an impact on individualfamilies, lives and individuals.
And that's the whole point of stufflike this is to have impact.
(26:42):
So without the evaluation, you know, howare you going to know what the impact is?
So that for me was one of the biggerstrengths of of the strategy.
I think the point you make aboutimplementation is, is absolutely key is
and I think a cynic could say,well, it's all very well
and good to have these strategies on paperthat they sound.
They've got their very lofty aspirations.
(27:04):
But what's the what's what difference isit actually going to make to somebody
in real life on the ground?
And so I guess I guess I would say,see that that sort of implementation
deficit disorder, is that somethingyou recognise kind of across Europe,
all the other countries?
Do you think that has made muchmore progress in terms of actually making,
you know, translating aspirations on paperinto action on the ground
(27:28):
that we might be able to learn from?
Yes, certainly.
I mean,
generally speaking, I'd say thatNordic countries or Western European
countries have probably been betteror more active in the sector
compared to other countries in Europe.
But again, we have good hopes that nowwith the strategy
that we change for various reasons,and I'll get to that in a second.
(27:49):
But first of all, let me say that,you know,
the fact that we now have an EUstrategy is not nothing.
I mean, it's a major achievementin, quite frankly, on our side.
It took us more than 15 yearsactually to convince member states
in collaboration with the Commission,that there was an added value
in having a coordinated approachon long term care at European level.
(28:13):
So I mean, you know, it'snot easy to convince 27 member states
to sit down together at the same tableto discuss common objectives.
And now we have reached this point.
But obviously,you know, as it was said by you
in that and I agree, the strategy is,at the end of the day, own your strategy.
It's ayou know, it's a compass, it's a plan.
(28:36):
It sets a direction.
But now we we are yet to see how
that will be interpreted by member states,of course.
Now I believe the strategy
could change a lot in terms of the gaps
when it comes to the implementationacross Member States and across Europe,
again, for various reasons besides the,
(28:58):
you know, the list of commonobjectives and common principles .
First of all,the strategy is accompanied by by funding,
which is always a very nice
incentive for member statesand stakeholders to try and comply,
at least with theor try and achieve the objectives.
So for example,
through the Structural Funds,Member States
(29:20):
will be able to access
additional financial supportas long as they can demonstrate
that they are doing their bestto implement the strategy.
The same applies to stakeholders
and to some extent also outside of the EU.
The Commission is also puttingquite a lot of money in, for example,
(29:44):
new research projectsto collect additional data about,
amongst other things, the situationand needs of informal carers and
the identification
also of potentially goodor promising practises.
So this is something for all of usto to keep an eye on.
And then the strategy is also
(30:05):
also entails that Member States will have
to submit every yearnational action plans to monitor
developmentand to keep track of of progress.
And again, this isthis is a voluntary process,
but it's it's naming and shamingkind of exercise.
(30:26):
Obviously, that means that every year
member stateswill probably meet, discuss progress.
And those member states who have even doneso much maybe to implement
the strategy will bediplomatically reminded by the Commission
and fellow Member States of the need to,you know,
(30:47):
to do more.
And again,that's that's that's very useful
when again, bearing in mind the limited
role of
of institutions in those in those areas.
So again, the strategy, you know,I don't mean to sound
too optimistic or naively optimistic,
(31:10):
but it certainly holds the potential toto make a big difference.
Thanks, Stacey.
And thinking about putting togetherthe National Action
Plan in Ireland,so what will that process look like?
Who will be some of the key peoplewho'll be involved?
What do you thinkmight be some of the quick wins
that you might be able toto make progress on?
(31:32):
And what do you thinkmight be in Ireland's some of the trickier
areas or the basicgoing to be just much more challenging.
To answer your first question, whowill be involved and what would it entail?
I actually don't know.
I'm looking forward to finding out whatit's going to look like because we like
I said, we've had a national care strategyhere in the last ten years
and it's really due for a renewal.
(31:54):
So I don't know, like it didn't have.
It didn't have.
I'm a big fan of policies,having strategies,
having a start date, an enddate, a budget and an implementation plan.
I think if you don't
have those sort of three or four things,you know, it's it's heightened to nothing.
To use a phrase that we used in Ireland
here, you're not goingto get much traction on it.
So I do hope that the the action plans
(32:17):
will tie in to our national care strategyor that they can be they can overlap,
you know, to try and make it a bitmore efficient.
You know, let's notlet's not do too many things.
Let's not have to do two or threedifferent things at once.
But I would love to.
See someone in Irelandhave the, the main responsibility
for caring and family carers in general.
(32:37):
It kind of now it fits easilyin our political kind of policy landscape.
It sits mostly through older persons,but then you know, then
you know, to disability and then you have,you know, I mean, so it's it's an
it's an uneasy mixin Ireland of where it might fit.
So I really don't know how that'sgoing to be managed. I,
I do think that some
(32:59):
of them the the quick again, quick wins.
I'm always I was sceptical of that termwhen it comes to policy because.
So that's quick.
I mean I hate how long policy takes,you know, change takes,
but when things are done quickly,I was kind of go, oh, they don't.
Well, like, are they done with the rightkind of frame of mind, you know?
And I think, you know, there'sthere's a lot of stuff within the strategy
(33:20):
that actually Ireland
is kind of already doingor is in the process of doing
work life balanceand that kind of stuff as well.
So, you know,I think some of those will be will kind of
be encouraged to be finished, openand in place a little bit faster.
Um, but again,like a simple thing about that
is that we have a piece of legislationin, in Ireland, it's the carers leave
(33:42):
and it basically enables a personto take two years,
up to two years of leavefrom their employment.
Their job is kind of kept for themto go back to after they finish caring
and then they geta, you know, a social benefit,
you know, to keep them out of poverty
while they're there caring for someonewho has an illness or a disability.
(34:06):
And the take up on that is super,super low and we don't really know why
in Ireland.
So I do kind of wonder going, okay,well what's, what's that about?
And how is that going to map on tothe work life balance?
Is there what's the appetite?
You know, how how's that going to work?
So I really don't know,to be honest with you.
I don't know.
It's it's it's it's shiftinglandscape in Irish politics at the moment.
(34:26):
And, you know,we have a coalition in Ireland
that's our major you know, governmentparties are all in coalition together.
So there's kind of lotsof big personalities, lots of big,
you know,policy issues that are being worked out.
So I just I just don't know.
I think some of the challenges will beI think one of the kind of preparation
(34:47):
I kind of the one that really stuck outto me is looking at
the kind of how services are providedand making those changes.
So there's there's a point in thein the strategy I just picked it out
was like making the services accessiblemeans that different working time patterns
might require care at atypical hours,for example, for shift or night workers.
And I can see that being a real challengefrom a kind of a home care
(35:11):
perspective in Ireland, because in generalit's very difficult to get overnight
night time home care and it can happen,but it's very, very rare.
It's usually between the hours of 8 a.m.and 8 p.m.
AM. Weekends might be a bit trickyas well by the staff.
So then you're kind of backto encouraging staff
in to the sector, making it more,you know, appealing.
(35:32):
So I think that's that to meis a challenge and I think a lot of it's
going to be challenging,but that's no harm.
I think if things are too easy,
are you then really pushingthe boundary of what can be done?
Thanks, Terry.
So I think you pick up on areally important point there,
which is about making surethat there are good measures to say that
unpaid carers can havea really healthy work life balance
(35:56):
to make sure that juggling those differentresponsibilities in their life
less and less stressful, really.
So I want you to to ask youabout what you both thought
about what might potentiallybe one of the weaknesses in the strategy.
And that's where theyit focuses too heavily
on unpaid carers of working age.
I think often the conversationcan be kind of focussed around
(36:18):
employment and providing unpaid carers.
We've seen as as a barrierto being a productive citizen
and I wonder if this is kind of a bit ofan instrumental way of looking at things
and if we might want to sort of framethe issue a bit differently?
Yes. Well, first of all, again,let me reiterate
that the strategy from our perspectivewhen it comes to unpaid carers.
(36:42):
So the group the groupI represent is extremely comprehensive.
Quite frankly, the commission did manageto take pretty much all of the right boxes
in terms of the,you know, what the strategy includes
when it comes to what needs to be doneto support informal carers.
The strategy calls on Member Statesto do three things essentially.
(37:04):
First of all, put in place instrumentsto identify and recognise informal carers.
Secondly, develop support mechanisms,
access to information,
training, counselling, respite,
the need to improve collaborationbetween informal and professional carers.
(37:24):
And then last but not least,the need to provide unpaid carers
with financial support.
So as you can see, it's a very impressive
and very good list of at least
ambitions.
But but you're right, obviously,nothing is perfect.
And there are weaknesses
in the strategy.
And the main one from our perspective
(37:46):
relates againto the mandate of the commission.
We we think the fact thathe only has a limited limited.
So we mandate in the areas of employmentand social affairs.
And it's it concerns the factthat the strategy primarily focuses
on carers of working ageor informal carers who wish to combine
(38:09):
caregiving responsibilitieswith professional responsibilities.
And that comes at the expense of
young carers who are still
completely invisible
on the EU policy agendas or older carers.
And these people obviouslyalso need support and they need to
(38:33):
and they deserve recognition and, andwe need to address their needs as well.
So we are trying to encourage obviously
the commission, but also throughthe implementation, implementation
of the strategy, we will ensure
to support Member States
(38:53):
so that the expensemay be the scope of the measures
they are planning to put in place to these
subgroups of of informal carers as well.
So that's one very clear weakness.
Then in the runup to the launch of the of the strategy,
(39:14):
high level EU officials in charge of
of the dossier mentionedseveral possible options
that we expected to be more prominentlyincluded in the strategy.
And then finally they are mentionedbut only in passing.
For example, the need to
to ensure that the time spent providingcare to a loved
(39:36):
one is also taken into considerationthe calculation of pension credits.
That's a very important supportmeasures of measures
that could or should be put in place
to supporting family carers.
And that's particularly,particularly important to gain
in the context of gender equalityand the gender pension gap.
(39:59):
So we are also working hardwith the Commission
and in the future with Member Statesto ensure that these
measuresare also part of the package. Yes.
And then again, I mentioned the need to
to provide financial supportto informal carers.
It's still interestingto see that in the strategy
(40:22):
when the Commission calls on Member Statesto provide this financial support.
The Commission adds as long as it does
not deter informal carersfrom accessing the labour market.
Which shows that the assumption is still
that if we provide two
too many support measuresto informal carers
(40:44):
and certainly financial support,some people may prefer
to actually stay at homeand take care of a loved one
rather than having an active,professional life.
And obviously, this is completelyI mean, the best evidence
that we disposal shows the exact opposite.
(41:05):
Obviously, most carers, when presented
with the possibility to receive good,
you know, a good level of support,including financial support,
still preferred to maintain an active
social and professional life obviously.
So, you know, there's still quitea lot of a lot of work to be done
(41:25):
in convincing policymakersand changing mindsets
and addressing this
false assumptionthat if we provide too much support
for family carers, that we come at the,you know, the detriment of all of
their
moneymakingactivities or their willingness
(41:46):
to be productive citizens,as you phrased it, Becky.
So great step forward with the strategy,
but the battle is not entirely over yet.
Still a few things that need to be made,
that need to be tweaked,I suppose, as we implement the strategy.
And from your perspective, sorry.
(42:06):
Would you agree with some of those issuesthat Stacey raised in terms of what
might be missing or what might be framedin a slightly problematic way?
Yes, I have said it.
I was I was biting my lip,
not because I disagree with anythingyou said, just to be clear,
but that that term in particular,productive member of society,
I think is one of the most dangerous it'sone of the most dangerous things in this.
(42:30):
When we're talking about thisbecause by saying
I'm not I'm not calling you on that,
because that's the terminologythat's so often used.
You know, it's kind of like,you know, well,
you can be a carer so long as eventuallyyou're going to want to go back in
and make money for somebody, right?
Like that's that's the end game here.
And it's like in some ways,like what is what is more productive
(42:51):
than ensuringthat someone is content and happy
and that you are as well as a person,not as a not as a potential worker,
but as a personand as a family that that works for you.
So I really you know, it's it's dangerousto give me a platform,
so I'm really not going toI could go on for a long time about that.
And so I'll save you all from that.
(43:13):
But I do think that's in general,I always get concerned when I see that
when I see the focus on,
you know , working agebecause again, like Stacey said, it
gets rid of inattention as so vitallyimportant around young carers.
It is a way, it's, you know, ittakes, kind of takes older carers
(43:33):
and particularly carers who are in therewho are caring for each other,
if you know what I mean.
Like that, that idea that you areeither cared for or you are a carer
is so problematic because it kind of,it has this duality to it
that it has this kind of binarythinking to it,
that I'm really not a fan of binarythinking anyway.
But in this case it's
(43:54):
so dangerous because it's the ideathat you can't be disabled and be a carer,
you can't be older and be a carer,you can't.
And you know, in my bioI specifically said about that idea
of intersectionality because you can be
so many different thingsand being a carer is one section of it
and it's about trying to figure outbalance between
all of those that work for for the personand for the family in general.
(44:16):
So I always have a real issuewhat there's,
there's, you know, and it comes off upit comes up all over the place.
You know, this is not just an EU strategy,you know, issue.
It's certainly comes up,you know, a lot of the time.
Say, for example, you know, funding callsfor supports for organisations
in Ireland are so often,you know, it's funding
for people of working age to enable themto go back to get into the labour market .
(44:40):
You know, this is a real focus on thatand a lot of family carers don't like that
because and rightly so, because it kind ofit gives the insinuation that
well you're not really working,you're not really being productive,
you're not really a part of society,you're not really doing this
because you're not, you know, actuallyworking , you know, and it's like, okay,
you, you, you be oncall for a sick person 24 hours
(45:03):
a day, seven days a weekand see how much work it is, you know?
So it's just it's a language thing.
It's a terminology thing, maybe.
But I think it's so importantbecause it kind of it
hints at where the value isis really put in society
so that that aspect of itis quite problematic for me.
So I agree with I agree with whateverybody said, but I just that that idea
(45:23):
of a productive member of societyand almost divorcing
that from being a familycarer is so problematic.
I think.
And I think it comes back to that,that broader point
that you were making earlier about about.
What we value.
And I think you can seeperhaps low levels of pay
and poor working conditions is kindof a reflection of how little value
(45:45):
society puts on this really,really important work
and kind of the consequences that has forpeople's well-being as a result.
So I'd just like to say a massivethank you to both of you for joining us.
It's been a real pleasureto talk to you today.
I guess finally,other kind of any final reflections
you'd like to offer on the strategyand before we wrap up?
(46:07):
Yes. Well,
I would say
that even though you're based inpresumably in the UK,
if you're listening to this podcast,keep an eye on the strategy.
I think the strategy can be a useful tooland a useful inspiration
to also encourage your own government
(46:28):
to be more active on the topic.
Also, it's always usefulto learn from other member states
and I know obviouslythe Centre for Care is very active
and instrumental in that regard. So well.
So yeah, keep an eye on the strategyand obviously we'll do our best to
keep you informed, informed as well.
So thanks again for the opportunityto speak about the strategy today
(46:50):
and looking forward to the next stepsof our collective work then.
Yeah, so Stacey just kind of saideverything I was going to say,
to be quite honest with you.
So I don't really have much else to us,except I definitely would agree.
You know,
I think one of the one of the big benefitsof being part of the EU
and part of this kind of,you know, you know,
(47:11):
national international groupslike Eurocrats, for example,
you know, we're we're Carolines,we're a member of Europe.
CARES has been so beneficial
to learn from other placesand other people at other member states
and see what works really, really well,but also what doesn't work well.
You know,I think sometimes we focus a little bit
too much onwe have to learn for what's good.
And I actually you almost learn more fromwhat's not been working
(47:33):
or has worked in the pastand is now no longer fit for purpose.
And I think, for example, our our Irishstrategy, it felt like it was really great
when it when it came out in 2012,but it's a relic of its time now know.
So I think that's really importantto keep that in mind going ahead is that,
you know, there's no we can kind of moveand shift and move with the times.
And I think the strategy, I think,is a good starting place for that.
(47:55):
Maybe particularlywhen you take into consideration
that hopefully the monitoring reportsfrom the individual member states
may be available for us to to look atand that that way then
that would be a really greatto be able to see from other places
what people are doingand how things are being done.
So you and I just want to againsay, you know, thanks for
for the opportunity to come along.
It's been it's been great, actually.
(48:16):
So thank you for that.
And perhaps we'll have and perhaps we'llhave you back on again in five years time
celebrating the enormous progresswe've made across the EU.
And I hope I'll be able to say thathere in the UK we've also learnt a lot
and implemented lots of measuresthat would improve people's wellbeing.
So great. Thank you very much.
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