November 29, 2023 • 30 mins
Join us on Episode 24 of Catching Carbon as our hosts delve into the world of dry ice with special guest Maria Butters from Butcher Box. Discover the critical role dry ice plays in the meat shipping industry and why Butcher Box decided to take matters into their own hands by producing their own dry ice during the challenging CO2 shortages. In this insightful conversation, we explore why dry ice is the cleanest and most effective freezing option for the food packaging sector, highlighting its indispensable role in preserving the quality of shipped meat. Maria sheds light on the intricacies of navigating CO2 shortages, emphasizing that sequestering might not be the panacea for addressing the diverse and constructive uses of this vital resource.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:25):
Everybody.
Welcome to this week's episode of Catching Carbon.
We got Jeff.
He is out taking in some sun on the mountains.
The reflection off his head is kind of blinding,
but bear with me here.
Uh brings out the color,
I guess.
And me.
So thanks for that,
Jeff and we've got Maria Butters from Butcher Box,
uh Butcher Box.
We're really excited to have her on today.
She actually came and was part of a panel at the Co2 Summit in Indianapolis back in September.
(00:50):
We did an episode for a live audience and I mean,
just what Butcher Box is doing with CO2 and Dry Ice was so interesting that we thought we need to share this with the larger audience,
the broader audience of the Catching Carbon Network.
And so Maria,
thank you so much for coming on.
She is the director,
senior director of Dry Ice Manufacturing with Butcher Box.
Glad to have you,
Maria.
Thank you so much for having me.
(01:11):
Yeah,
it's great to see you again.
Yeah,
as Luke said,
I mean,
we had a,
you know,
you know,
when we started the podcast,
the idea was about the supply side of CO2 and who's using it and the impacts in the industry and the market and,
and things like that and your story kind of culminates all of that.
Yeah,
I mean,
not only when,
when people say,
oh where is Co2 even use,
who uses all this dry ice?
So I,
you know,
you're sitting right here and you're gonna tell us all about it.
(01:32):
So we're looking forward to that.
But on top of that,
you know,
you,
you experience this to experience all the negative impacts of the last couple of years of the shortages,
allocations and things like that.
And,
but Butcher Box has been,
you know,
extremely aggressive and,
and uh uh you know,
forward thinking and,
and innovative and all of that.
So we're excited to hear more about that.
And I think,
you know,
that for a general audience,
that's,
that's really interesting.
(01:52):
What you've done about it is,
is great and I'm sure you have,
you know,
more,
more uh plans down the road to,
to continue that.
So look forward to it.
Great to see you again.
Sounds great.
Thank you.
And that said,
Jeff,
hey Maria,
why don't you just kind of give us the background on Butcher Box on what the company is doing.
The growth over the last few years has been tremendous,
kind of set the stage for us.
OK.
So,
(02:12):
uh Butcher Box uh was founded by,
founded by our Ceo Mike Salguero,
uh and the whole concept really started from not being able to find claims based meat,
clean meat uh for his family.
Um He has shared the story on all outlets,
but his wife has hashimoto's disease.
And one of the things that he found was that eating clean protein.
(02:34):
Uh so grass fed beef specifically is really important in helping to support a better diet and a better lifestyle for those with some autoimmune disorders.
Well,
he's local to Boston and discovered that it's not as readily available.
And so from there,
Butcher Box was born.
And so the whole concept is that we help people eat better.
And the idea is,
(02:55):
it's more than just the protein is better.
It's,
we're better for the planet.
We're better for the farmer.
And because of all of that now it's,
it's this wonderful.
I,
I would almost call it a trifecta,
but the idea is everybody has a seat at the table in achieving this better eating situation.
So,
and,
you know,
we want the animal to have a better life and better quality of life.
(03:18):
You know,
they're going to have one bad day.
We know that.
Uh,
but hopefully it's just the one that they have.
And ultimately,
we're all able to,
you know,
eat better as a result of that.
And so within Butcher Box where kinda I come onto the scene,
Butcher Box is uh bootstrapped.
Uh,
Mike went through a Kickstarter program and then,
(03:39):
um,
so there's no outside funding.
We have grown organically.
It's,
it's an amazing company,
you know,
not just from a,
hey,
it's great for what they've done in the dry ice industry,
but just from a,
an employer standpoint,
it's an amazing brand,
an amazing employer story.
I would encourage people to uh research a little bit more on that.
There's great articles to read.
Um and as an employee,
(04:00):
I'm really grateful to be working here.
Um So from a dry ice perspective,
along comes 2020 COVID and I mean,
we all know the story.
Uh the not fun the entire industry had and Butcher Box was faced with force measures and uh we ended up not being able to ship out boxes.
(04:21):
Well,
what else happened in COVID?
There were people that weren't able to go to the grocery store because of concerns about COVID and things like that.
Um And the supply wasn't always there.
And so Butcher Box grew exponentially during COVID because not only did we have this amazing product,
but we had reliability and sustainability.
(04:42):
So all three factors really came into play.
So now we're faced with,
we have these amazing orders,
we're ready to go and our distribution partners come to us and go,
hey guys,
sorry.
Oh,
you don't have dry ice.
Well,
if you are shipping protein in the mail and you don't have dry eyes,
you don't have a product because I mean,
it meat just doesn't last in the mail on its own.
(05:04):
I have to say it's interesting because I think people think of like the home good shipping and a and a lot of those companies are doing like the meal kits and those are just refrigerated.
So the differentiation is you're shipping frozen meat and that those refrigerated packets will not keep something frozen,
which is where obviously the need for dry ice comes in.
So if you're at home listening,
(05:25):
we're not talking about the refrigerated packets.
We're talking about full on frozen dry ice packed boxes coming to your door.
Yeah,
I,
I just kind of wanted to add to that and let you kind of build on that,
that because people would say,
ok,
well,
great,
we don't have dry ice,
what other alternatives.
But even those,
those cold packs,
I mean,
there's chemicals in there.
They,
they're not,
they're not a clean thing,
(05:45):
right?
They're not a sustainable product,
a lot of waste and chemicals and,
and non organic substance in there.
Dry ice is the perfect solution for it.
Right.
And,
and what I,
so what I find interesting and,
and you know what,
we had a,
a little tidbit of this conversation at the conference but,
you know,
for so many people carbon,
you know,
it has this negative connotation to it.
(06:07):
But those of us that are in the industry we know.
So it's so much different than that.
And what's interesting to me is,
you know,
the same people that are on Capitol Hill lobbying against carbon.
And we all know that there are some things in the industry that we need to change.
We can all agree that we can do better in some things.
But ultimately,
from a refrigerant perspective,
(06:28):
CO2 is one of the cleanest refrigerants out there.
And in fact,
you have the EPA leaning on the grocery industry to say,
hey,
can you switch to CO2 as your refrigerant of choice instead of the 407 A s and the RR 20 twos and all of these other items,
it's like either go to ammonia or go to CO2 and let's face it.
(06:48):
CO2 is a lot safer to work with from a technician perspective than what ammonia is.
So,
you know,
we're,
we're sitting here in a,
in a place of carbon has a place,
it will always have a place as long as there are human beings,
there will be carbon.
Um So if we're going to have CO2,
then let's use it responsibly.
Let's use it the right way.
(07:09):
But we even have some of our European counterparts that have,
you know,
actually done the studies to your point earlier,
Jeff that the gel packs from a refrigeration standpoint,
have a higher economic and higher global warming impact than what CO2 does as a refrigerant inside a shipping situation.
So,
(07:30):
you know,
it,
it really is CO2 is the better option not only from the quality and standpoint and shipping time extension for the protein we sell it really is better for the planet.
Yeah.
And we,
one of our favorite taglines is,
is,
uh,
you know,
change the way you think about CO2.
I mean,
we hear CO2,
CO2 is bad,
get rid of it.
It's not bad,
you know,
I mean,
it,
it does,
(07:50):
like you said,
as long as we exist there's going to be CO2 on top of that.
If,
if we think we're gonna get off fossil fuels and then I'll debate anybody on the next decade.
Two decades,
five decades,
we will not,
I mean,
we're,
we're very reliant on fossil fuels and there's very good aspects about them.
But then where you have,
this is where you have fossil fuels and other things,
(08:10):
you're going to have CO2 where we have hydrogen,
we generally have CO2 where we have anything we're going to have CO2.
And I,
I can't wait to hear and,
and I'm gonna steal some thunder but bridge this all together on the innovative constructive uses of CO2.
What a great new source of CO2 is farm waste.
So if we can capture that farm waste and recycle that to make the dry ice,
(08:31):
that's used to ship your fresh farm products,
we're not quite there yet.
It exists,
but it's more expensive.
It's,
it's not,
it's a little bit cost prohibitive prohibitive.
But yeah,
we're capturing the methane off of biogas digesters from that farm waste today.
And the CO2 is just still being evaporated,
but you can be carbon negative in all of this to ship fresh wholesome,
(08:52):
you know,
meat proteins to us.
Does butcher box have you on,
do they have you on retainer right now?
Now,
that was awesome,
Jeff,
not yet,
but I mean,
I'm expecting a gift that he's making the pitch.
Absolutely.
Between debates on fossil fuels.
We'll do it live here and,
and retainer as,
as a consultant.
I mean,
you're really building the uh the streams of,
(09:12):
of income.
That's,
yeah,
that they paid for the mountains.
That's my right,
Mr Self promotional.
That's,
that's,
that's so interesting though.
And um you know,
Jeff uh to,
to kind of couple on that.
Uh I,
I would imagine we get to the place we talked about cost curve and,
and new technologies,
but where that's,
that's actually economic to do,
right,
Maria.
And that's what we talk about is,
is you get to where you're,
(09:33):
you're almost,
you know,
net neutral,
net negative.
It builds in your brand's story and we do it economically and that's really cool.
It does.
And,
and from our standpoint is,
you know,
you wanna do better for people and better for the planet.
Um Our boxes are completely recyclable.
So,
and it's recyclable at the curb.
So the whole intention is if you're going to add something to,
(09:55):
you know,
the entire chain,
the food chain in this perspective,
either reuse,
reduce,
do what you can to be a responsible corporate citizen.
And I think that's what all of us in this industry are trying to say is that there is a place at the table for us in,
in various degrees.
But I don't think the general public understands just exactly dependent on carbon,
(10:15):
on hydrogen and helium that our food chain is both in the United States and globally as a whole.
No.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That's,
that's really where it comes to,
to the,
the point in the head.
Like I think you,
you,
you said it earlier,
I mean,
you know,
we can get better in a lot of places and there's also,
you know,
uh what we call hard to abate industries.
(10:36):
Uh where you,
you,
you can't,
it's very hard to eliminate.
Power generation is a perfect example.
Transportation is where we put all the focus and I think transportation is something like 17% of,
of CO2 emissions,
power generation and other things like that.
Um you know,
chemical production,
mining,
things like that all make up really the CO2 output that we have and,
(10:56):
and we can get better in all of those.
But in order to do that,
we have to be innovative,
have to be creative and we have to just stop thinking of it as totally negative and that's what you do,
you're utilizing those things.
So,
you know,
I mean,
all the electric cars in the world are great.
That makes sense.
But then we could fix all of them.
We solved 17% of the problem.
So,
you know,
you're,
you're doing your small part and then you say,
I mean,
that's a,
everybody has to do it and,
and,
(11:16):
and,
but you know,
the,
the other,
the other tagline we love is you have to be in the black to be in the green.
It has to make financial sense,
right?
And that's what we have to get to.
So,
so in all that,
so talk to us about it,
you know,
like you said,
you didn't have a business if you can't ship.
So there is no product.
All these things in the world doesn't matter if you couldn't ship it.
What did you do about it?
Exactly.
So clearly,
you're still here a couple of years later.
So,
(11:36):
uh you did something,
right?
So,
uh it ended up one of uh the former executives here at Butcher Box.
Um Juan went to Mike our CEO and said I have an idea.
It's a great idea.
Why don't we make our own dry ice?
And,
you know,
to some people that was the old duh,
you're own part of your supply chain.
Like why is that so innovative?
Well,
to an ecommerce company that really is innovative,
(12:00):
um from an asset perspective,
dry ice,
that's the asset that we own.
So,
you know,
that's the one part of our supply chain that we said,
this is where we need to invest the most we can,
we can use outside partnerships.
We can,
you know,
manage suppliers.
But this is one where we feel like supplier management isn't getting us the result that we need.
(12:20):
So we're gonna take this in house and do it ourselves.
And so we opened up the first plant in Oklahoma City.
Uh They started making ice in December of 2020.
And uh then Butcher Box said,
I think we might need more than just one location which those of us in the industry would go.
Yes.
Yes,
you absolutely do.
Uh You need more than one source.
(12:42):
Um And so they uh posted the job uh for the director's position,
uh senior director position for dry ice.
Um I applied because I love the story of the company.
I came from the supermarket industry.
So food is in my blood.
Uh manufacturing is in my blood.
Facilities are in my blood.
I mean,
this is I'm very niche,
this is a niche thing.
(13:02):
I,
I am attracted to it like I'm off to a flame.
Uh So I interviewed and just fell in love with everything.
And uh a few months later,
we were opening up our Iowa location.
And so we have two plants,
uh multiple lines in each plants,
uh different source uh options for our CO2 in the two plants and multiple um suppliers.
(13:24):
Um I'm a wrist mitigation is uh also in my blood.
So uh I don't like to have all of my eggs in one basket.
But I do like to have great supplier relationships.
And,
you know,
we treat people with respect and ask,
uh for responsibility in exchange.
Jeff always says it's a partnership and it sounds like that's exactly how,
you know,
you're treating it,
(13:45):
which is great.
Speaking of niche,
you're talking to two guys that are hosting a podcast on the supply of CO2.
So I think we,
we fully understand that one.
We,
we get niche.
Um But it's uh I got to ask Maria,
um when I think about the legit sticks of opening a second location,
right to me first thought is,
well,
it's because,
(14:05):
you know,
you can ship your,
your finished,
completed protein boxes to the east coast,
easier,
maybe out of Iowa,
kind of Midwest central location to the to the west coast,
maybe out of Oklahoma City.
But it sounds like the,
the driver was actually the supply of the CO2,
not the logistics of shipping your packages.
We have,
we ship out of five different locations across the country.
(14:27):
Um And the only the closest one that we have,
we have a uh CO2 plant.
I'm sorry,
our dry ice plant.
Excuse me.
In Oklahoma.
Foreshadowing,
she was foreshadowing is what that was.
We have a distribution facility there in Oklahoma City as well.
Um But our Iowa location was chosen exclusively because of the access to CO2.
(14:53):
Um Our closest uh distribution point there is actually in Mohaka,
Wisconsin.
It's about six hours away.
What are the sources that coming off ethanol?
So I was coming off of uh ethanol and then Oklahoma obviously ammonia production.
So I,
I I'll put you on the spot.
Did you breathe a sigh of relief or concern or happiness?
(15:17):
Uh When,
when the,
the Navigator pipeline was,
was put on hold a couple of weeks ago.
So here's what I'll say about the Navigator pipeline.
I,
I think it's one of those things that it is great in theory,
um when we chose our location in Iowa,
the Navigator pipeline,
we were already hearing,
you know,
bits and pieces of it in the industry.
(15:38):
So that was one of the questions that I explicitly asked.
Um our supplier was,
you know,
are,
do you have concerns about the Navigator pipeline and how would this impact my supply if I select this location?
Uh So it was very much on the table.
So from a do I breathe a sigh of relief and the fact that it,
I think that that will have a positive contribution to liquid Co2 pricing in the future.
(16:03):
Yes,
because I don't think we're going to see as much volume taken out.
But because I think the Navigator pipeline,
in theory,
the concept of that pipeline,
there is a lot of good to that.
I do think we'll see something like that in the future.
It may not be in the size and scope that Navigator was.
I think we're going to see that and as a result we are going to see,
(16:24):
you know,
how that impacts CO2 and the pricing that we all pay.
Um,
so there was a little sigh of relief but not like,
oh God,
we're safe.
We had already,
you know,
kind of crossed that bridge risk mitigations in her blood.
So.
Absolutely.
Well,
I mean,
and,
and that's what I mean,
that's great.
I mean,
that's,
to me that's part of the problem right now.
And you know,
(16:45):
I,
I'm not gonna take a side on for or against the pipelines.
I,
I,
you know,
I mean,
we're,
we're,
we're good friends with,
with pipelines.
We,
we,
we,
and I,
I,
I'm with you,
I think it makes sense to a point but the bigger point is why rather than just sequester everything,
uh why don't we find alternative uses?
But this,
this in between where we're at right now of pipelines are coming,
(17:05):
everything's going offline,
prices are gonna go up,
supply is gonna go down now.
Nothing.
So everything's fine again.
But again,
there has to be an answer and I,
I add another layer to that if you produce ethanol and try to sell ethanol and you're trying to sell to California with the low carbon fuel standards and things like that,
your C I score,
the only way to make it competitive is to do something with that CO2 that pipeline was that only outlet now there needs to be a better outlet or another outlet.
(17:31):
Otherwise we're gonna have all this ethanol production in the Midwest and it's going to come to a screeching halt regardless.
So this instability in the market uh lacks in investment.
Like you said,
that was a question you had to ask,
what do I do try to invest in here or not?
And I think it's putting everything to a screeching halt because there's no clarity on that and we can't do anything.
So,
you know that to me is the downside and the shame of the Navigator pipeline being mothballed.
(17:55):
I believe it will come back online.
It's going,
I always felt like it was going to take longer than what anybody is projecting.
But I do,
I think it necessary but is it necessary just to sequester or is it necessary to take the CO2 where it's at and get it to a point where we can utilize it for sustainable aviation fuels,
for carbon black,
for polymers,
(18:16):
for other things?
Um Yeah,
without having to truck it up and down the road at 20 tons a day,
we can get,
you know,
we have 15 million tons going through a pipeline every year.
Um How do we,
how do we better utilize that?
And I think it's just kind of stepping back and rethinking this whole model.
Well,
and,
and I think part of it too really comes into,
how do we treat the government as a customer because at the end of the day,
part of what is funding Navigator is the IRA and you know,
(18:39):
all of these offsets and all of these elements.
Well,
if the government as a customer,
then we have to educate.
And that's where,
you know,
when we talked earlier this year and we,
we spoke,
you know,
the coalition is so important because from an education perspective,
people have to understand and,
and part of what I think gets missed in this is,
(19:02):
you know,
you have supply,
it has to be at a certain level just to support the food chain in the United States and you forget everything else.
You have to have enough CO2 to support the food chain.
Otherwise we are going to have food,
more food deserts than what we have now.
So either we can go into the government and say,
all right,
great idea in theory,
great application.
(19:22):
But here are some things that we need for you to really contemplate and let's iterate this to where it makes sense for these entities.
Like to you to your point earlier,
you got to be in the black before you can be in the green.
Let's make this where we take some of that cost,
prohibition out because let's face it.
If we really want to impact carbon,
(19:44):
let's capture what we can,
that isn't being captured today and clean it.
Now we address supply.
We have,
yeah,
Exactly.
We have a fantastic supply source in this country.
We're just not able to capture it because the investment hasn't been there.
To your point.
If we can put money into that perspective,
(20:04):
from a just economy of the United States,
we would be in such a better shape both for our people as an industry we would grow.
And I can,
um I can almost characterize them as green jobs.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There,
there's a,
a legislation in front of Congress right now called the Parity Act.
And the Parity Act is to say,
so you,
(20:24):
you talk about the IRA and that 4045 Q.
So you get $85 a ton to sequester,
right?
Yeah,
but again,
that's the government's your customer.
That means the taxpayer is the customer will be funding that forever.
Uh That's the only way that works.
It's a horrible business model,
long term frame.
Um Unless you're getting paid.
But you know,
you talk about inflation and price priority,
you know,
consumer price index,
everything goes up because of that.
(20:46):
Somebody has to pay that $85 a ton to capture that.
Um Now the Parity Act is if $60 a ton to utilize CO2 and they're still defining what the utilization is.
Parity Act is to make it 85 and 85.
Let's encourage the same way we're encouraging,
putting it in the ground,
encourage uses the,
the,
the people that are against that or would be against the utilization altogether.
(21:08):
And we know we've heard from,
from many congressmen on that side of the equation and their argument is,
well,
you're still releasing the CO2,
you make dry ice with it,
you get this credit,
but then you're releasing it again anyway.
And,
and they're missing the full life cycle of all of it.
You're still going to have the CO2 you're paying to put it down there and I get it long term.
Would we like to abate some of those that,
(21:28):
that production of CO2?
Of course,
we would.
But you,
you get farm ways,
cow ways,
trash,
you know,
landfills,
they all produce CO2 all day every day.
Um So let's focus on doing something about it.
So for everybody listening,
support the Parity Act,
it's,
it's one step closer at least and not just paying to put it into the ground,
but it's utilizing it.
And there's,
you know,
multiple councils,
(21:48):
like you said,
there's a,
the um that,
that are focused on this.
Uh But there's not enough attention to it.
And I think the,
the notion that it's just,
well,
you're still releasing it anyway.
It's not,
it's not permanently getting rid of it.
That that's it.
I think that's extremely short sighted,
in my opinion.
Well,
and,
and it's someone who's never been around the industry,
it's what it is.
Ok?
Come with me to a stack and tell me if you're comfortable with this being released versus clean.
(22:13):
Yeah.
Iii,
I hate saying clean CO2 but something that's BEV grade CO2 that's turned into dry ice,
that's 99.999% pure.
Which one would you rather be released?
That?
Absolutely.
Well,
and I mean,
you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I,
what you,
you hit on the most important point in there and that's what we try to advocate here where is CO2 used.
(22:34):
And,
I mean,
people just do not realize the amount of impact on the food supply that is being negatively impacted.
And I think the number is something like our commercial use of CO2 in this,
in this regard is one quarter of 1% of all the CO2 emissions in the world or yeah,
we're not talking about a lot.
So trying to focus on eliminating that what you just said because we uh we,
(22:55):
we use it to stun the animals to,
to harvest the animals to do freeze and steam to,
to use the animal is the most humane way of food production.
We use it all of our sodas and our drinks and,
and up and down the,
the the food supply.
It's used in Pharmaceut production,
pharmaceutical storage,
pharmaceutical transportation.
Uh it's,
it's used in surgeries and other in in medical applications as well as shipping your food supply from butcher box to your house.
(23:22):
And so to,
to think that that's not a,
a contribution to our economic growth is,
is extremely like I said short sighted and we've got to fix that.
Absolutely.
So,
uh so we're very glad obviously that we uh made this investment.
It,
it has worked out obviously for us.
Um But also we have some customers that we are able to sell dry ice to.
(23:43):
Uh and uh because we have done our homework,
uh I guess you could say on reliability and supply.
Um I really approach things from a maintenance perspective.
Uh That is the world in the supermarkets that I came from uh is to provide reliable sourcing for uh for dry ice.
And I mean,
obviously there are some other great players in the game,
(24:04):
we all know that.
Um but historically,
uh as an industry,
reliability has not always been there when it comes to dry ice production.
And that's,
that's the,
the place that we've decided to focus is on being reliable.
I see that logo on uh the shirt today,
which is awesome.
Not butcher box,
butcher box of dry ice.
Uh You know,
and that was suggesting,
(24:25):
hey,
you know,
we are a player in this space.
What's your reach right now with that distribution?
Um And I guess I'd say both,
both,
you know,
throughout the US,
where are you able to ship?
And also,
I mean,
volumes are,
are you,
are you moving a lot of ice?
Are you looking to continue to expand your customer reach?
So yet we are looking to expand.
Um I do have some excess capacity.
(24:46):
I know those are magic words in this industry,
but we do have excess capacity in both our Oklahoma and Iowa location.
So we're very excited about that.
Uh But we can ship anywhere in the continental 48.
Um And today,
uh we are shipping,
uh I was actually saying earlier before we got started,
um we weekly ship both to Stockton,
California and then we ship all the way across the country into,
(25:09):
uh we have a customer in New Jersey,
we have customers in Jacksonville,
Florida.
So,
um,
Texas,
so we,
we kind of go a little bit of everywhere.
Uh That's impressive because yeah,
obviously,
one of the biggest costs in,
in,
in ice distribution is the distribution cost itself and to be able to,
to do that be cost competitive,
(25:29):
that speaks,
I mean,
I,
I think you're right,
the,
the the growth curve of dry ice over the last five years has been pretty astonishing honestly and,
and for,
for all these commercial use that we're talking about and,
and I think,
uh,
you know,
Ice and CO2 for,
for decades was just considered the,
the,
the dirty industry.
It's just the dirty gas,
even,
even the major gas distributors really didn't love CO2.
We all love it now.
(25:51):
Um,
and it's uh it's an important gas and it's important and so,
but dry ice is a part of that and,
and I,
you know,
I,
I don't know if maybe for,
you know,
years and years.
It was just not,
the service wasn't considered part of the equation.
And if somebody just,
you know,
you need ice,
you got ice,
people did it.
Um uh the the growth and the diversification of suppliers of,
of dove dry ice has been really,
really interesting to see.
(26:11):
It's uh is it's both regional and localized as well as national footprint.
People are growing and,
and ice is coming from all over the place and it's about quality of ice and quality of service.
So clearly,
you're doing something right?
In those regards,
we're,
we're trying,
I uh I come from a,
a belief that we treat the customer like a king or a queen.
And in so doing that,
(26:32):
I do what I,
what we commit,
we are going to do for you.
So it doesn't get any more complicated than that.
And that kind of comes full circle,
right?
I mean,
that's exactly what you all wanted done to you at Butcher Box,
decided to take it into your own hands.
But now uh ensuring that that reliance of supply um to the to the of your customer base,
we,
you know,
we talk with people and some say,
(26:52):
0 CO2 kind of is a part of what I do,
but we don't want to be in distribution.
You know,
it's a logistics nightmare and you took the opposite approach which I have not seen a lot of we're gonna dive head first into this.
Um And we're going to make it,
you know,
uh a part of what we do at this business,
which is really interesting and,
and it's more than just,
you know,
diving into the business.
(27:12):
You,
it's not enough to know the tricks of the trade,
you have to learn the trade.
Um And so that's one of the things that I've always admired about Butcher Box and the folks here at Butcher Box,
they know when to say this isn't my specialty.
We need to bring somebody in that,
this is their specialty.
And so,
um being able to have those relationships and conversations with people in the industry,
(27:33):
you know,
even such as yourselves,
guys,
you know,
having these kind of conversations helps inform and the more we inform,
the more we influence.
So,
you know,
just creating that space and that opportunity.
I,
I applaud y'all for doing this with this podcast.
It's fantastic.
Appreciate the kind words we're both really with what you all have done there to.
Like I said,
the,
the life cycle of the business itself.
(27:54):
I,
I miss what,
what year did you say you started?
Um Not,
not you personally,
but the Butcher Box itself was founded and,
and bootstraps,
which is incredible,
but no Butcher Box was founded in 2015.
Yeah,
that's,
that's really impressive.
Just the,
the speed at which you've grown to scale and not just once again,
core competencies and we're gonna fix supply chain of food and ship protein.
(28:14):
But no,
we're also doing ice now.
I,
you know,
I wonder what else is in the incubator over there.
Uh And maybe we'll have to kind of pull back the curtain sometime,
not on the podcast cause uh my curiosity has peaked.
Uh But,
but that said,
Maria,
what are we missing?
Anything else that you really want to touch on or,
or you know,
that,
you know,
you are all doing that,
you think the listeners would find valuable or interesting?
(28:34):
I I think really it's about,
you know,
communication.
Um you know,
we talk about the supplier partnerships and,
and who provides us with our CO2.
You know,
you asked a great question.
I thought on the panel which,
you know,
if you could get the word out to any uh to the CO2 industry,
what would that be?
And it's really about communication um encouraging the relation between the customer and the supplier to understand,
(29:00):
you know,
this is when we're going to go down for maintenance,
this is when,
you know,
think you need to understand that like bad things that happen here are going to impact you in a much stronger way than if something happens,
you know,
earlier on in the year.
But giving us the ability to plan the more time we have to make a plan as the end user of the CO2,
(29:23):
the better off that we are.
And I think that's one of the ways that we can really improve this industry is through encouraging and increasing the communication between the end user,
the producers,
the purifiers,
so that we have a better,
a better grasp really of what's coming down the line.
That's good.
And,
you know,
we have an array of listeners here at the podcast.
(29:43):
So,
you know,
hopefully people at home are,
are taking note of that and it's,
it's valuable to hear from an end user.
We say obviously you're in a unique situation.
Um But you know,
what drove you to do what you did,
what are some of the pain points and,
and you being the voice for other end users out there.
Uh You know,
we certainly appreciate it and,
and hopefully,
um our audience is taking note and uh we start to see kind of a shift in how we treat CO2 uh as a business.
(30:06):
Well,
thank you again for the opportunity.
It,
it's been amazing to be here.
No,
we really appreciate.
Amazing,
amazing what you all have done in,
in such a short amount of time and uh continue to expand and grow and uh uh we look forward to working together with you in the future on these things.
Yeah.
Thanks Maria.
Thank y'all.
Y'all have a great one.
Everybody.
Welcome to this week's episode of Catching Carbon.
We got Jeff.
He is out taking in some sun on the mountains.
The reflection off his head is kind of blinding,
but bear with me here.
Uh brings out the color,
I guess.
And me.
So thanks for that,
Jeff and we've got Maria Butters from Butcher Box,
uh Butcher Box.
We're really excited to have her on today.
She actually came and was part of a panel at the Co2 Summit in Indianapolis back in September.
(00:50):
We did an episode for a live audience and I mean,
just what Butcher Box is doing with CO2 and Dry Ice was so interesting that we thought we need to share this with the larger audience,
the broader audience of the Catching Carbon Network.
And so Maria,
thank you so much for coming on.
She is the director,
senior director of Dry Ice Manufacturing with Butcher Box.
Glad to have you,
Maria.
Thank you so much for having me.
(01:11):
Yeah,
it's great to see you again.
Yeah,
as Luke said,
I mean,
we had a,
you know,
you know,
when we started the podcast,
the idea was about the supply side of CO2 and who's using it and the impacts in the industry and the market and,
and things like that and your story kind of culminates all of that.
Yeah,
I mean,
not only when,
when people say,
oh where is Co2 even use,
who uses all this dry ice?
So I,
you know,
you're sitting right here and you're gonna tell us all about it.
(01:32):
So we're looking forward to that.
But on top of that,
you know,
you,
you experience this to experience all the negative impacts of the last couple of years of the shortages,
allocations and things like that.
And,
but Butcher Box has been,
you know,
extremely aggressive and,
and uh uh you know,
forward thinking and,
and innovative and all of that.
So we're excited to hear more about that.
And I think,
you know,
that for a general audience,
that's,
that's really interesting.
(01:52):
What you've done about it is,
is great and I'm sure you have,
you know,
more,
more uh plans down the road to,
to continue that.
So look forward to it.
Great to see you again.
Sounds great.
Thank you.
And that said,
Jeff,
hey Maria,
why don't you just kind of give us the background on Butcher Box on what the company is doing.
The growth over the last few years has been tremendous,
kind of set the stage for us.
OK.
So,
(02:12):
uh Butcher Box uh was founded by,
founded by our Ceo Mike Salguero,
uh and the whole concept really started from not being able to find claims based meat,
clean meat uh for his family.
Um He has shared the story on all outlets,
but his wife has hashimoto's disease.
And one of the things that he found was that eating clean protein.
(02:34):
Uh so grass fed beef specifically is really important in helping to support a better diet and a better lifestyle for those with some autoimmune disorders.
Well,
he's local to Boston and discovered that it's not as readily available.
And so from there,
Butcher Box was born.
And so the whole concept is that we help people eat better.
And the idea is,
(02:55):
it's more than just the protein is better.
It's,
we're better for the planet.
We're better for the farmer.
And because of all of that now it's,
it's this wonderful.
I,
I would almost call it a trifecta,
but the idea is everybody has a seat at the table in achieving this better eating situation.
So,
and,
you know,
we want the animal to have a better life and better quality of life.
(03:18):
You know,
they're going to have one bad day.
We know that.
Uh,
but hopefully it's just the one that they have.
And ultimately,
we're all able to,
you know,
eat better as a result of that.
And so within Butcher Box where kinda I come onto the scene,
Butcher Box is uh bootstrapped.
Uh,
Mike went through a Kickstarter program and then,
(03:39):
um,
so there's no outside funding.
We have grown organically.
It's,
it's an amazing company,
you know,
not just from a,
hey,
it's great for what they've done in the dry ice industry,
but just from a,
an employer standpoint,
it's an amazing brand,
an amazing employer story.
I would encourage people to uh research a little bit more on that.
There's great articles to read.
Um and as an employee,
(04:00):
I'm really grateful to be working here.
Um So from a dry ice perspective,
along comes 2020 COVID and I mean,
we all know the story.
Uh the not fun the entire industry had and Butcher Box was faced with force measures and uh we ended up not being able to ship out boxes.
(04:21):
Well,
what else happened in COVID?
There were people that weren't able to go to the grocery store because of concerns about COVID and things like that.
Um And the supply wasn't always there.
And so Butcher Box grew exponentially during COVID because not only did we have this amazing product,
but we had reliability and sustainability.
(04:42):
So all three factors really came into play.
So now we're faced with,
we have these amazing orders,
we're ready to go and our distribution partners come to us and go,
hey guys,
sorry.
Oh,
you don't have dry ice.
Well,
if you are shipping protein in the mail and you don't have dry eyes,
you don't have a product because I mean,
it meat just doesn't last in the mail on its own.
(05:04):
I have to say it's interesting because I think people think of like the home good shipping and a and a lot of those companies are doing like the meal kits and those are just refrigerated.
So the differentiation is you're shipping frozen meat and that those refrigerated packets will not keep something frozen,
which is where obviously the need for dry ice comes in.
So if you're at home listening,
(05:25):
we're not talking about the refrigerated packets.
We're talking about full on frozen dry ice packed boxes coming to your door.
Yeah,
I,
I just kind of wanted to add to that and let you kind of build on that,
that because people would say,
ok,
well,
great,
we don't have dry ice,
what other alternatives.
But even those,
those cold packs,
I mean,
there's chemicals in there.
They,
they're not,
they're not a clean thing,
(05:45):
right?
They're not a sustainable product,
a lot of waste and chemicals and,
and non organic substance in there.
Dry ice is the perfect solution for it.
Right.
And,
and what I,
so what I find interesting and,
and you know what,
we had a,
a little tidbit of this conversation at the conference but,
you know,
for so many people carbon,
you know,
it has this negative connotation to it.
(06:07):
But those of us that are in the industry we know.
So it's so much different than that.
And what's interesting to me is,
you know,
the same people that are on Capitol Hill lobbying against carbon.
And we all know that there are some things in the industry that we need to change.
We can all agree that we can do better in some things.
But ultimately,
from a refrigerant perspective,
(06:28):
CO2 is one of the cleanest refrigerants out there.
And in fact,
you have the EPA leaning on the grocery industry to say,
hey,
can you switch to CO2 as your refrigerant of choice instead of the 407 A s and the RR 20 twos and all of these other items,
it's like either go to ammonia or go to CO2 and let's face it.
(06:48):
CO2 is a lot safer to work with from a technician perspective than what ammonia is.
So,
you know,
we're,
we're sitting here in a,
in a place of carbon has a place,
it will always have a place as long as there are human beings,
there will be carbon.
Um So if we're going to have CO2,
then let's use it responsibly.
Let's use it the right way.
(07:09):
But we even have some of our European counterparts that have,
you know,
actually done the studies to your point earlier,
Jeff that the gel packs from a refrigeration standpoint,
have a higher economic and higher global warming impact than what CO2 does as a refrigerant inside a shipping situation.
So,
(07:30):
you know,
it,
it really is CO2 is the better option not only from the quality and standpoint and shipping time extension for the protein we sell it really is better for the planet.
Yeah.
And we,
one of our favorite taglines is,
is,
uh,
you know,
change the way you think about CO2.
I mean,
we hear CO2,
CO2 is bad,
get rid of it.
It's not bad,
you know,
I mean,
it,
it does,
(07:50):
like you said,
as long as we exist there's going to be CO2 on top of that.
If,
if we think we're gonna get off fossil fuels and then I'll debate anybody on the next decade.
Two decades,
five decades,
we will not,
I mean,
we're,
we're very reliant on fossil fuels and there's very good aspects about them.
But then where you have,
this is where you have fossil fuels and other things,
(08:10):
you're going to have CO2 where we have hydrogen,
we generally have CO2 where we have anything we're going to have CO2.
And I,
I can't wait to hear and,
and I'm gonna steal some thunder but bridge this all together on the innovative constructive uses of CO2.
What a great new source of CO2 is farm waste.
So if we can capture that farm waste and recycle that to make the dry ice,
(08:31):
that's used to ship your fresh farm products,
we're not quite there yet.
It exists,
but it's more expensive.
It's,
it's not,
it's a little bit cost prohibitive prohibitive.
But yeah,
we're capturing the methane off of biogas digesters from that farm waste today.
And the CO2 is just still being evaporated,
but you can be carbon negative in all of this to ship fresh wholesome,
(08:52):
you know,
meat proteins to us.
Does butcher box have you on,
do they have you on retainer right now?
Now,
that was awesome,
Jeff,
not yet,
but I mean,
I'm expecting a gift that he's making the pitch.
Absolutely.
Between debates on fossil fuels.
We'll do it live here and,
and retainer as,
as a consultant.
I mean,
you're really building the uh the streams of,
(09:12):
of income.
That's,
yeah,
that they paid for the mountains.
That's my right,
Mr Self promotional.
That's,
that's,
that's so interesting though.
And um you know,
Jeff uh to,
to kind of couple on that.
Uh I,
I would imagine we get to the place we talked about cost curve and,
and new technologies,
but where that's,
that's actually economic to do,
right,
Maria.
And that's what we talk about is,
is you get to where you're,
(09:33):
you're almost,
you know,
net neutral,
net negative.
It builds in your brand's story and we do it economically and that's really cool.
It does.
And,
and from our standpoint is,
you know,
you wanna do better for people and better for the planet.
Um Our boxes are completely recyclable.
So,
and it's recyclable at the curb.
So the whole intention is if you're going to add something to,
(09:55):
you know,
the entire chain,
the food chain in this perspective,
either reuse,
reduce,
do what you can to be a responsible corporate citizen.
And I think that's what all of us in this industry are trying to say is that there is a place at the table for us in,
in various degrees.
But I don't think the general public understands just exactly dependent on carbon,
(10:15):
on hydrogen and helium that our food chain is both in the United States and globally as a whole.
No.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That's,
that's really where it comes to,
to the,
the point in the head.
Like I think you,
you,
you said it earlier,
I mean,
you know,
we can get better in a lot of places and there's also,
you know,
uh what we call hard to abate industries.
(10:36):
Uh where you,
you,
you can't,
it's very hard to eliminate.
Power generation is a perfect example.
Transportation is where we put all the focus and I think transportation is something like 17% of,
of CO2 emissions,
power generation and other things like that.
Um you know,
chemical production,
mining,
things like that all make up really the CO2 output that we have and,
(10:56):
and we can get better in all of those.
But in order to do that,
we have to be innovative,
have to be creative and we have to just stop thinking of it as totally negative and that's what you do,
you're utilizing those things.
So,
you know,
I mean,
all the electric cars in the world are great.
That makes sense.
But then we could fix all of them.
We solved 17% of the problem.
So,
you know,
you're,
you're doing your small part and then you say,
I mean,
that's a,
everybody has to do it and,
and,
(11:16):
and,
but you know,
the,
the other,
the other tagline we love is you have to be in the black to be in the green.
It has to make financial sense,
right?
And that's what we have to get to.
So,
so in all that,
so talk to us about it,
you know,
like you said,
you didn't have a business if you can't ship.
So there is no product.
All these things in the world doesn't matter if you couldn't ship it.
What did you do about it?
Exactly.
So clearly,
you're still here a couple of years later.
So,
(11:36):
uh you did something,
right?
So,
uh it ended up one of uh the former executives here at Butcher Box.
Um Juan went to Mike our CEO and said I have an idea.
It's a great idea.
Why don't we make our own dry ice?
And,
you know,
to some people that was the old duh,
you're own part of your supply chain.
Like why is that so innovative?
Well,
to an ecommerce company that really is innovative,
(12:00):
um from an asset perspective,
dry ice,
that's the asset that we own.
So,
you know,
that's the one part of our supply chain that we said,
this is where we need to invest the most we can,
we can use outside partnerships.
We can,
you know,
manage suppliers.
But this is one where we feel like supplier management isn't getting us the result that we need.
(12:20):
So we're gonna take this in house and do it ourselves.
And so we opened up the first plant in Oklahoma City.
Uh They started making ice in December of 2020.
And uh then Butcher Box said,
I think we might need more than just one location which those of us in the industry would go.
Yes.
Yes,
you absolutely do.
Uh You need more than one source.
(12:42):
Um And so they uh posted the job uh for the director's position,
uh senior director position for dry ice.
Um I applied because I love the story of the company.
I came from the supermarket industry.
So food is in my blood.
Uh manufacturing is in my blood.
Facilities are in my blood.
I mean,
this is I'm very niche,
this is a niche thing.
(13:02):
I,
I am attracted to it like I'm off to a flame.
Uh So I interviewed and just fell in love with everything.
And uh a few months later,
we were opening up our Iowa location.
And so we have two plants,
uh multiple lines in each plants,
uh different source uh options for our CO2 in the two plants and multiple um suppliers.
(13:24):
Um I'm a wrist mitigation is uh also in my blood.
So uh I don't like to have all of my eggs in one basket.
But I do like to have great supplier relationships.
And,
you know,
we treat people with respect and ask,
uh for responsibility in exchange.
Jeff always says it's a partnership and it sounds like that's exactly how,
you know,
you're treating it,
(13:45):
which is great.
Speaking of niche,
you're talking to two guys that are hosting a podcast on the supply of CO2.
So I think we,
we fully understand that one.
We,
we get niche.
Um But it's uh I got to ask Maria,
um when I think about the legit sticks of opening a second location,
right to me first thought is,
well,
it's because,
(14:05):
you know,
you can ship your,
your finished,
completed protein boxes to the east coast,
easier,
maybe out of Iowa,
kind of Midwest central location to the to the west coast,
maybe out of Oklahoma City.
But it sounds like the,
the driver was actually the supply of the CO2,
not the logistics of shipping your packages.
We have,
we ship out of five different locations across the country.
(14:27):
Um And the only the closest one that we have,
we have a uh CO2 plant.
I'm sorry,
our dry ice plant.
Excuse me.
In Oklahoma.
Foreshadowing,
she was foreshadowing is what that was.
We have a distribution facility there in Oklahoma City as well.
Um But our Iowa location was chosen exclusively because of the access to CO2.
(14:53):
Um Our closest uh distribution point there is actually in Mohaka,
Wisconsin.
It's about six hours away.
What are the sources that coming off ethanol?
So I was coming off of uh ethanol and then Oklahoma obviously ammonia production.
So I,
I I'll put you on the spot.
Did you breathe a sigh of relief or concern or happiness?
(15:17):
Uh When,
when the,
the Navigator pipeline was,
was put on hold a couple of weeks ago.
So here's what I'll say about the Navigator pipeline.
I,
I think it's one of those things that it is great in theory,
um when we chose our location in Iowa,
the Navigator pipeline,
we were already hearing,
you know,
bits and pieces of it in the industry.
(15:38):
So that was one of the questions that I explicitly asked.
Um our supplier was,
you know,
are,
do you have concerns about the Navigator pipeline and how would this impact my supply if I select this location?
Uh So it was very much on the table.
So from a do I breathe a sigh of relief and the fact that it,
I think that that will have a positive contribution to liquid Co2 pricing in the future.
(16:03):
Yes,
because I don't think we're going to see as much volume taken out.
But because I think the Navigator pipeline,
in theory,
the concept of that pipeline,
there is a lot of good to that.
I do think we'll see something like that in the future.
It may not be in the size and scope that Navigator was.
I think we're going to see that and as a result we are going to see,
(16:24):
you know,
how that impacts CO2 and the pricing that we all pay.
Um,
so there was a little sigh of relief but not like,
oh God,
we're safe.
We had already,
you know,
kind of crossed that bridge risk mitigations in her blood.
So.
Absolutely.
Well,
I mean,
and,
and that's what I mean,
that's great.
I mean,
that's,
to me that's part of the problem right now.
And you know,
(16:45):
I,
I'm not gonna take a side on for or against the pipelines.
I,
I,
you know,
I mean,
we're,
we're,
we're good friends with,
with pipelines.
We,
we,
we,
and I,
I,
I'm with you,
I think it makes sense to a point but the bigger point is why rather than just sequester everything,
uh why don't we find alternative uses?
But this,
this in between where we're at right now of pipelines are coming,
(17:05):
everything's going offline,
prices are gonna go up,
supply is gonna go down now.
Nothing.
So everything's fine again.
But again,
there has to be an answer and I,
I add another layer to that if you produce ethanol and try to sell ethanol and you're trying to sell to California with the low carbon fuel standards and things like that,
your C I score,
the only way to make it competitive is to do something with that CO2 that pipeline was that only outlet now there needs to be a better outlet or another outlet.
(17:31):
Otherwise we're gonna have all this ethanol production in the Midwest and it's going to come to a screeching halt regardless.
So this instability in the market uh lacks in investment.
Like you said,
that was a question you had to ask,
what do I do try to invest in here or not?
And I think it's putting everything to a screeching halt because there's no clarity on that and we can't do anything.
So,
you know that to me is the downside and the shame of the Navigator pipeline being mothballed.
(17:55):
I believe it will come back online.
It's going,
I always felt like it was going to take longer than what anybody is projecting.
But I do,
I think it necessary but is it necessary just to sequester or is it necessary to take the CO2 where it's at and get it to a point where we can utilize it for sustainable aviation fuels,
for carbon black,
for polymers,
(18:16):
for other things?
Um Yeah,
without having to truck it up and down the road at 20 tons a day,
we can get,
you know,
we have 15 million tons going through a pipeline every year.
Um How do we,
how do we better utilize that?
And I think it's just kind of stepping back and rethinking this whole model.
Well,
and,
and I think part of it too really comes into,
how do we treat the government as a customer because at the end of the day,
part of what is funding Navigator is the IRA and you know,
(18:39):
all of these offsets and all of these elements.
Well,
if the government as a customer,
then we have to educate.
And that's where,
you know,
when we talked earlier this year and we,
we spoke,
you know,
the coalition is so important because from an education perspective,
people have to understand and,
and part of what I think gets missed in this is,
(19:02):
you know,
you have supply,
it has to be at a certain level just to support the food chain in the United States and you forget everything else.
You have to have enough CO2 to support the food chain.
Otherwise we are going to have food,
more food deserts than what we have now.
So either we can go into the government and say,
all right,
great idea in theory,
great application.
(19:22):
But here are some things that we need for you to really contemplate and let's iterate this to where it makes sense for these entities.
Like to you to your point earlier,
you got to be in the black before you can be in the green.
Let's make this where we take some of that cost,
prohibition out because let's face it.
If we really want to impact carbon,
(19:44):
let's capture what we can,
that isn't being captured today and clean it.
Now we address supply.
We have,
yeah,
Exactly.
We have a fantastic supply source in this country.
We're just not able to capture it because the investment hasn't been there.
To your point.
If we can put money into that perspective,
(20:04):
from a just economy of the United States,
we would be in such a better shape both for our people as an industry we would grow.
And I can,
um I can almost characterize them as green jobs.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There,
there's a,
a legislation in front of Congress right now called the Parity Act.
And the Parity Act is to say,
so you,
(20:24):
you talk about the IRA and that 4045 Q.
So you get $85 a ton to sequester,
right?
Yeah,
but again,
that's the government's your customer.
That means the taxpayer is the customer will be funding that forever.
Uh That's the only way that works.
It's a horrible business model,
long term frame.
Um Unless you're getting paid.
But you know,
you talk about inflation and price priority,
you know,
consumer price index,
everything goes up because of that.
(20:46):
Somebody has to pay that $85 a ton to capture that.
Um Now the Parity Act is if $60 a ton to utilize CO2 and they're still defining what the utilization is.
Parity Act is to make it 85 and 85.
Let's encourage the same way we're encouraging,
putting it in the ground,
encourage uses the,
the,
the people that are against that or would be against the utilization altogether.
(21:08):
And we know we've heard from,
from many congressmen on that side of the equation and their argument is,
well,
you're still releasing the CO2,
you make dry ice with it,
you get this credit,
but then you're releasing it again anyway.
And,
and they're missing the full life cycle of all of it.
You're still going to have the CO2 you're paying to put it down there and I get it long term.
Would we like to abate some of those that,
(21:28):
that production of CO2?
Of course,
we would.
But you,
you get farm ways,
cow ways,
trash,
you know,
landfills,
they all produce CO2 all day every day.
Um So let's focus on doing something about it.
So for everybody listening,
support the Parity Act,
it's,
it's one step closer at least and not just paying to put it into the ground,
but it's utilizing it.
And there's,
you know,
multiple councils,
(21:48):
like you said,
there's a,
the um that,
that are focused on this.
Uh But there's not enough attention to it.
And I think the,
the notion that it's just,
well,
you're still releasing it anyway.
It's not,
it's not permanently getting rid of it.
That that's it.
I think that's extremely short sighted,
in my opinion.
Well,
and,
and it's someone who's never been around the industry,
it's what it is.
Ok?
Come with me to a stack and tell me if you're comfortable with this being released versus clean.
(22:13):
Yeah.
Iii,
I hate saying clean CO2 but something that's BEV grade CO2 that's turned into dry ice,
that's 99.999% pure.
Which one would you rather be released?
That?
Absolutely.
Well,
and I mean,
you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I,
what you,
you hit on the most important point in there and that's what we try to advocate here where is CO2 used.
(22:34):
And,
I mean,
people just do not realize the amount of impact on the food supply that is being negatively impacted.
And I think the number is something like our commercial use of CO2 in this,
in this regard is one quarter of 1% of all the CO2 emissions in the world or yeah,
we're not talking about a lot.
So trying to focus on eliminating that what you just said because we uh we,
(22:55):
we use it to stun the animals to,
to harvest the animals to do freeze and steam to,
to use the animal is the most humane way of food production.
We use it all of our sodas and our drinks and,
and up and down the,
the the food supply.
It's used in Pharmaceut production,
pharmaceutical storage,
pharmaceutical transportation.
Uh it's,
it's used in surgeries and other in in medical applications as well as shipping your food supply from butcher box to your house.
(23:22):
And so to,
to think that that's not a,
a contribution to our economic growth is,
is extremely like I said short sighted and we've got to fix that.
Absolutely.
So,
uh so we're very glad obviously that we uh made this investment.
It,
it has worked out obviously for us.
Um But also we have some customers that we are able to sell dry ice to.
(23:43):
Uh and uh because we have done our homework,
uh I guess you could say on reliability and supply.
Um I really approach things from a maintenance perspective.
Uh That is the world in the supermarkets that I came from uh is to provide reliable sourcing for uh for dry ice.
And I mean,
obviously there are some other great players in the game,
(24:04):
we all know that.
Um but historically,
uh as an industry,
reliability has not always been there when it comes to dry ice production.
And that's,
that's the,
the place that we've decided to focus is on being reliable.
I see that logo on uh the shirt today,
which is awesome.
Not butcher box,
butcher box of dry ice.
Uh You know,
and that was suggesting,
(24:25):
hey,
you know,
we are a player in this space.
What's your reach right now with that distribution?
Um And I guess I'd say both,
both,
you know,
throughout the US,
where are you able to ship?
And also,
I mean,
volumes are,
are you,
are you moving a lot of ice?
Are you looking to continue to expand your customer reach?
So yet we are looking to expand.
Um I do have some excess capacity.
(24:46):
I know those are magic words in this industry,
but we do have excess capacity in both our Oklahoma and Iowa location.
So we're very excited about that.
Uh But we can ship anywhere in the continental 48.
Um And today,
uh we are shipping,
uh I was actually saying earlier before we got started,
um we weekly ship both to Stockton,
California and then we ship all the way across the country into,
(25:09):
uh we have a customer in New Jersey,
we have customers in Jacksonville,
Florida.
So,
um,
Texas,
so we,
we kind of go a little bit of everywhere.
Uh That's impressive because yeah,
obviously,
one of the biggest costs in,
in,
in ice distribution is the distribution cost itself and to be able to,
to do that be cost competitive,
(25:29):
that speaks,
I mean,
I,
I think you're right,
the,
the the growth curve of dry ice over the last five years has been pretty astonishing honestly and,
and for,
for all these commercial use that we're talking about and,
and I think,
uh,
you know,
Ice and CO2 for,
for decades was just considered the,
the,
the dirty industry.
It's just the dirty gas,
even,
even the major gas distributors really didn't love CO2.
We all love it now.
(25:51):
Um,
and it's uh it's an important gas and it's important and so,
but dry ice is a part of that and,
and I,
you know,
I,
I don't know if maybe for,
you know,
years and years.
It was just not,
the service wasn't considered part of the equation.
And if somebody just,
you know,
you need ice,
you got ice,
people did it.
Um uh the the growth and the diversification of suppliers of,
of dove dry ice has been really,
really interesting to see.
(26:11):
It's uh is it's both regional and localized as well as national footprint.
People are growing and,
and ice is coming from all over the place and it's about quality of ice and quality of service.
So clearly,
you're doing something right?
In those regards,
we're,
we're trying,
I uh I come from a,
a belief that we treat the customer like a king or a queen.
And in so doing that,
(26:32):
I do what I,
what we commit,
we are going to do for you.
So it doesn't get any more complicated than that.
And that kind of comes full circle,
right?
I mean,
that's exactly what you all wanted done to you at Butcher Box,
decided to take it into your own hands.
But now uh ensuring that that reliance of supply um to the to the of your customer base,
we,
you know,
we talk with people and some say,
(26:52):
0 CO2 kind of is a part of what I do,
but we don't want to be in distribution.
You know,
it's a logistics nightmare and you took the opposite approach which I have not seen a lot of we're gonna dive head first into this.
Um And we're going to make it,
you know,
uh a part of what we do at this business,
which is really interesting and,
and it's more than just,
you know,
diving into the business.
(27:12):
You,
it's not enough to know the tricks of the trade,
you have to learn the trade.
Um And so that's one of the things that I've always admired about Butcher Box and the folks here at Butcher Box,
they know when to say this isn't my specialty.
We need to bring somebody in that,
this is their specialty.
And so,
um being able to have those relationships and conversations with people in the industry,
(27:33):
you know,
even such as yourselves,
guys,
you know,
having these kind of conversations helps inform and the more we inform,
the more we influence.
So,
you know,
just creating that space and that opportunity.
I,
I applaud y'all for doing this with this podcast.
It's fantastic.
Appreciate the kind words we're both really with what you all have done there to.
Like I said,
the,
the life cycle of the business itself.
(27:54):
I,
I miss what,
what year did you say you started?
Um Not,
not you personally,
but the Butcher Box itself was founded and,
and bootstraps,
which is incredible,
but no Butcher Box was founded in 2015.
Yeah,
that's,
that's really impressive.
Just the,
the speed at which you've grown to scale and not just once again,
core competencies and we're gonna fix supply chain of food and ship protein.
(28:14):
But no,
we're also doing ice now.
I,
you know,
I wonder what else is in the incubator over there.
Uh And maybe we'll have to kind of pull back the curtain sometime,
not on the podcast cause uh my curiosity has peaked.
Uh But,
but that said,
Maria,
what are we missing?
Anything else that you really want to touch on or,
or you know,
that,
you know,
you are all doing that,
you think the listeners would find valuable or interesting?
(28:34):
I I think really it's about,
you know,
communication.
Um you know,
we talk about the supplier partnerships and,
and who provides us with our CO2.
You know,
you asked a great question.
I thought on the panel which,
you know,
if you could get the word out to any uh to the CO2 industry,
what would that be?
And it's really about communication um encouraging the relation between the customer and the supplier to understand,
(29:00):
you know,
this is when we're going to go down for maintenance,
this is when,
you know,
think you need to understand that like bad things that happen here are going to impact you in a much stronger way than if something happens,
you know,
earlier on in the year.
But giving us the ability to plan the more time we have to make a plan as the end user of the CO2,
(29:23):
the better off that we are.
And I think that's one of the ways that we can really improve this industry is through encouraging and increasing the communication between the end user,
the producers,
the purifiers,
so that we have a better,
a better grasp really of what's coming down the line.
That's good.
And,
you know,
we have an array of listeners here at the podcast.
(29:43):
So,
you know,
hopefully people at home are,
are taking note of that and it's,
it's valuable to hear from an end user.
We say obviously you're in a unique situation.
Um But you know,
what drove you to do what you did,
what are some of the pain points and,
and you being the voice for other end users out there.
Uh You know,
we certainly appreciate it and,
and hopefully,
um our audience is taking note and uh we start to see kind of a shift in how we treat CO2 uh as a business.
(30:06):
Well,
thank you again for the opportunity.
It,
it's been amazing to be here.
No,
we really appreciate.
Amazing,
amazing what you all have done in,
in such a short amount of time and uh continue to expand and grow and uh uh we look forward to working together with you in the future on these things.
Yeah.
Thanks Maria.
Thank y'all.
Y'all have a great one.
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