November 1, 2024 • 24 mins
For this episode of CECI Connect, Melanie discusses how safety and discomfort impacts the learning process for students in college with Jen Torreano, Director of the Knowledge Market at Grand Valley State University.
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(00:04):
You're listening to CECI Connect,
a podcast from the CECI Undergraduateadvising Office for the College
of Education and Community Innovationat Grand Valley State University.
Whether you're a student, teacher,professional or friend.
Welcome to this episode.
(00:27):
So today I have Jen Torreano,
who works with university librarieshere at Grand Valley, to talk to us
about learning new information
and how to make it easier on ourselvesand enjoy the process.
Jen, do you mind walking our listenersthrough your journey
of how you got to where you areprofessionally at university libraries?
(00:48):
Yeah, so,
I'll actually startfrom when I was a student
because I was a student hereat Grand Valley.
My major was English literaturewith a minor in classics
and when I was a student,I got a job at the writing center.
So I was a writing consultant herefor three years.
And in my last summerbefore my senior year,
(01:09):
the designs for the current Mary IdemaPew Library were being put together.
And it was these large groups of librarystaff and folks on campus
meeting with architects to dream.
And, I did a student summer scholars project
through the Officeof Undergraduate Research,
and my project focused on writing centerlibrary collaboration
(01:30):
in preparation for the knowledgemarket here in the library.
So the knowledge market is a spacewhere students can come in and get support
in research, writing,presentations, and digital literacy.
So the idea was that
the knowledge market would be rightacross from the service desk in a space
that's really visible to studentsas they're walking through the library.
(01:50):
They can think, oh my gosh,I have this presentation coming up.
I should pop inand talk to a speech consultant.
So I was doing this summer project,
and at the time, the current dean wanted
to put librarians into the spaceto provide support with research.
And I interviewed her for my project,and it was only supposed to be
like a 20 minute interview.
(02:11):
And we ended up talkingfor a couple of hours,
and by the end of it, she was interestedin having peer research consultants.
So when I graduated, the library hired me
and I did a
couple other jobs in the librarywhile doing that a little bit at the time.
But eventually that part of my jobgrew so big that it became my whole job.
And so now I'm the directorof the knowledge market and I run that
(02:33):
research serviceas well as work with our partners,
the Speech Lab and the Writing Centerand the Digital Creator Lab
to have all those services in a spacethat's useful for students.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
You know, you and I know each other.
We've worked together in the past,and so, you know how important
(02:54):
working at the Writing Center was for me
and my professional pathway,as well as my personal development.
Can you talk to our listenersa little bit about what
working in peermentoring at the Writing Center
did for you in your professionaland personal development?
Yeah.
So honestly, I thinkthe most important thing that job did
(03:17):
for me was give me confidencebecause I met so many different students
working as a consultant,and I had so many opportunities.
I think there are opportunitiesthat every student at the university has,
but not ones that everyone knows aboutor feels comfortable pursuing.
So I had a mentorand the director of the Writing Center
(03:38):
who encouraged me to do thingslike apply for a student summer
scholars project and offeredto be my mentor for that project.
And so
I think learning
how to speak with people,feeling comfortable
asking a lot of questionsand being curious about people's lives
and what they're learning,and then feeling comfortable
(04:00):
being curious more publicly myselfby pursuing research and
frankly, getting out of my comfort zoneand doing things like interviewing
library deans and traveling to Kentuckyto talk to their library deans
like that was so uncomfortable for me.
But doing it
not only helped medevelop as a person and a learner
(04:24):
and as a professional,but it also led to this whole career path
for me, that would have never happenedhad I not taken that risk.
So I think,I think working as a student here
and working in the writing centerhelped me feel comfortable taking risks.
Yes, I completely relate to that.
I also think that my experience workingat the Writing Center had a lot to do
(04:47):
with developing confidence and braveryand learning how to take risks.
But one of the thingsI think was particular about my experience
was knowing that working with studentswas different every single time, right?
Every single human beingwas their own individual, unique self.
And it was my job to sit downwith this stranger
(05:07):
and help themfigure out what they wanted to do.
So it could have been helping themunderstand
what their professor wanted from them,or it could have been helping them
figure outhow to accomplish an assignment.
Or it could have been helping them
figure out how to express themselvesauthentically.
I think I had to approach those situationswith curiosity,
(05:28):
because I couldn't predict who or whatwas going to be walking into the room.
Do you relate to that at all?
Yes, I think,
I think what you said about everyonebeing an individual and coming in
with their own lived experienceand their own way of perceiving
those experiences, means that we can'tever make assumptions about people.
(05:51):
And so
people also really likewhen you ask them questions.
People like to experience curiosity
and other people being curious about thembecause it makes them feel seen
and like someone is lookingfor that connection with them.
(06:11):
And so I think beforeworking at the Writing Center,
I was always worried about pryingor making people uncomfortable
by asking them questions.
I didn't want people to think I wasbeing nosy, and instead what I learned
is people enjoy
someone being interested in them.
Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too.
(06:34):
I ended up,
I think, getting more comfortableasking people questions after
I could feel like that warmthand excitement from the other person,
sort of as if they were feeling specialor noticed
and sort of the center of that moment.
One of the things I really wantedto pick your brain about today,
aside from the fact that we bothhave this thing in common about us
(06:56):
developing our confidence,bravery, and curiosity
when working with studentsat the writing center in the library,
is the fact that you and Iboth like helping people learn new things
when it's hard.Your expertise here in this thing called cognitive dissonance
is something I findsuper fascinating and like, truly helpful.
(07:17):
So can you talk to us a little bit hereabout cognitive
dissonance and its relationshipto learning new information?
Sure.
So cognitive dissonanceis psychological discomfort that results
from inconsistency between a person'sbeliefs and new information.
The term cognitive dissonancewas coined by Leon Festinger in
(07:37):
1957.
He wrote a book called “A Theoryof Cognitive Dissonance.”
I believe he was a psychologistwho did a number of large academic studies
that resulted in this theory.
So we experienced cognitive dissonanceall the time.
Whenever you learn informationthat doesn't match
(07:59):
what you thought was going to happen.
That's cognitive dissonance.
So scientistsexperienced cognitive dissonance
every time they make a hypothesis.
And things don't work out exactlythe way that they thought they would.
But as people,we make hypotheses all the time.
When I walked into the officethis morning, I thought,
oh, I'll probably be the only person herebecause it's fall break
(08:20):
when we're recording thisand it said half the office was here.
So that was a moment of cognitivedissonance, right?
So it can be really innocuous,or it can be
things that are more complicatedthat help that contradict
things that we believe about
the world, that make us feel uncertainabout how we fit into the world.
(08:41):
So they can range from small littleinnocuous moments
to things that are much more complicatedand much more difficult to overcome.
Right, okay.
So yes, this is exactly whyI wanted to talk with you,
because I think, you know, you mentionedwe both work at a college and,
you know, we're all learning thingsall the time.
(09:02):
And I think I see learningas the experience
of accumulating informationyou didn't have before.
And understandingit comes from where you put that
new information,whether it's in your head or your life
or your psyche,your framework of reality or whatever.
So integrating new informationmight involve some level of cognitive
(09:25):
dissonance.
And as educators,we might have a more joyful
embracing of discomfortwhen it comes to learning.
But for others who are gaining
new information,it might start out feeling uncomfortable.
But then maybe it startsto feel harmful or threatening.
Not just challenging.
(09:46):
Can you talk to us about the relationshipbetween discomfort,
challenge, and threatwhen it comes to learning new stuff?
Okay.
So there was this researchernamed William Perry
and he had it, sounds very intimidating.
He wrote something called WilliamPerry Scheme
(10:08):
of Intellectual and Ethical Development,which sounds very intimidating,
but basically William Perry studiedhow students
change over time while they're in college.
He studied how students
understand the world around themas they grow through college.
So what he found and granted,this was in the 1950s at Harvard.
(10:29):
It was all white men.
Right?
So this is a very narrow group of people
that can't you can't make broadgeneralizations from that.
But subsequent researchers have studiedthe same thing
in different kinds of groupsof college students right over time.
So the basic idea is people start out
by thinking of the worldas a binary in black and white.
(10:52):
So authority here that with a capital,
a authority is absoluteand all other interpretations are wrong.
So you know something to be true.
Anyone who believes differently fromyou is just wrong.
Okay, I think I get it.
Then as we grow, we get into this.
I like to call it the “who's to saymoment” of our lives where everyone has
(11:14):
a right to their own opinionand all opinions are equal.
And then finally we get to what he callsrelativism.
So it's the idea that some interpretationsare better than others,
and that value is determinedby weighing evidence in context.
So, people certainly have a rightto their own opinions,
but some of them are going to be betterthan others based on facts
(11:37):
based on the world in which we live.
Based on the contextin which we're applying that information.
So that's just how people grow over time.
So the way that we move from
everything is black and white to things
matter in context is by experiencingcognitive dissonance.
(11:58):
That's what pushes us along the scale.
So experiencing moments of discomfort
is necessary to expand your worldview.
You can't do itunless you experience discomfort.
Okay, now, That's brilliant.
I don't know it.
I mean, I have so many questions
(12:18):
now, and, you know,maybe we'll do a follow up conversation.
To get to those.
But I think where I get stuck
personally is that it has taken mea very long time in my life
to know the differencebetween discomfort and harm.
And I think that, you know, it's
(12:40):
it's really easy for me to notice, like,like I'm a, I'm a pianist,
and I've been playing pianosince I was a little kid.
And I can physically experience discomfortwhen I'm learning a new skill
on the piano.
Like, my fingers get tired.
My brain feels twisted.
I might get frustrated because I'm notpicking up the skill as fast as I want to.
(13:02):
So like, there's discomfort there,but I know it's not going to hurt me.
It's just going to push me.
Yeah.
Just like what you were saying
with cognitive dissonancepushing you through phases of development.
I was not always.
I mean, and maybe I'm not even good now.
I'm just better.
But I was not always goodat recognizing the difference between
(13:22):
what feels uncomfortable to learnand what feels threatening to learn.
So canyou talk to me and maybe people out there
who are also struggling with thisabout what harm or threat might do
when you're experiencingcognitive dissonance, or what
it might do when you're learningnew information.
(13:45):
Yeah.
So, I want to make a distinction herebecause there's cognitive dissonance
and then there is shame.
And they are related concepts,but they are not the same.
Brené Brown makes a distinctionbetween guilt and shame, and cognitive
dissonanceis akin to guilt in this analogy.
So guilt is I did something bad.
Shame is I am bad.
(14:06):
So when you're experiencingpsychological discomfort.
Knowing that it's something
that is making you uncomfortable,but that you're safe.
That's cognitive dissonance.
Feelingso uncomfortable that you feel unsafe.
That's shame. Okay, so
the difference tends
to be how close something feelsto the core of your identity.
(14:31):
So if you think of your identitylike a web, something might feel
innocuous, like,the example I like to give is
the belief that all students can payfor college with a minimum wage job.
Right.
That feels innocuous, like,just a thought that someone has, but
(14:52):
that connection.
That belief is connectedto your understanding
of America as a meritocracy.
It's connected to your understandingof your family's
place in societyand whether they have earned it.
It's connected to your understanding
(15:13):
of your community's value in the world.
So that that beliefthat may feel really distant
from your self-conceptis actually very close to it.
Yeah. And so,
some time,
something that you might thinkcould cause cognitive dissonance actually
causes shamebecause of how people understand it.
(15:37):
Yeah.
So I actually I copied down a quotebecause I just, I think about this quote
all the time.
There is this, scholar.
His name is Parker Palmer,
and he writes theseabsolutely beautiful books on teaching.
And when he's talkingabout the vulnerability of being struck
with a new thought, he says, “wegrab an old idea, a conceptual club
(15:58):
we know how to usebecause we have swung it
many times before,and we beat the surprise to death,
or we run away beforeit can make a mark on our minds.
” That'swhat happens when we feel shame, right?
When we're learning. Oh, that's very good.
So then I
think we can all acknowledgethat at this time
(16:18):
there is this sort of heightenedlevel of fear
or hostilitygoing on in rooms with American people.
And,
and I think this relates really wellto something you're talking about,
which is the ability to navigatebetween information,
making us feel to the core that,we are wrong.
(16:39):
Versusbeing able to experience the sensation
that the information we hadbefore was wrong.
And I think folks at all levelsof cognitive development can feel this.
But maybe that sense of shame or feeling
scared to explorenew information is just happening more now
because of our information ecosystemand the social climate
(17:03):
in which we live right now.
Can you share what you know
about what Grand Valley is doing to helpcollege students push through
the perceived hostilityor the possible sensations of fear.
When our students are learning new things.
What things are we doing hereto help students feel safer doing that?
(17:24):
Yeah. Yeah. So,
it's important to know that
when you feel shame,it is impossible to learn.
So shame bypasses
the neocortex, which is responsiblefor reasoning and learning.
And it's process in the limbic system,which is fight or flight.
And that seems a little dramaticwhen you first hear it.
(17:45):
But when you think abouthow essential connection
is to our survival, it makes sense.
When you read Shakespeare and Romeo'spunishment is that he's exiled.
That feels dramatic.
But when you understand that,that means that
he is losing his ability to survive,because survival
(18:08):
hinges on community.
It makes sense.
So with that in mind,
we work actively in the knowledge marketamong our peer learning services to
create an environment that is comfortablefor students to learn new information.
So when you're working with a
(18:30):
peer and you're not being evaluated,no one's judging.
Your work is not going to impactyour grade.
You don't have to tell your professorthat you came in if you don't want to.
You can have the kind of conversationwhere you can try something
and you can fail,and you can learn together
and conversationand there's no punishment for failing.
(18:51):
A lot of the time
we have to fail in order to try somethingwhen you're researching.
Odds are your search terms the first timearen't going to produce what you want,
and you learn from what happenedin those search results,
and you modify based on that information.
And so our peer learning services
here create the kind of environmentwhere you can be creative
(19:15):
and try things,because you can't learn without risk.
Yeah.
And I think
that circles all the way backto what we were talking about before,
when talking about our experiences
working at the Writing Centerwhen we were students.
What I hear in your storywas your development of bravery,
which I think is a skill
(19:36):
you can only develop when you experiencediscomfort in learning.
And we've both talkedabout how that bravery seemed
to develop alongsideour development of curiosity as well.
And I think bravery and curiositywere two skills
that got us through learning new stuffor becoming new people.
(19:56):
And I think one of the things I'd liketo give you a chance to speak to as well
is what relationshipyou see between bravery,
curiosity and cognitive dissonancefor college students
who are maybe using the knowledge marketor are on their own learning new stuff.
You know,what would you like to say to that?
(20:16):
So one thing we love to see inthe library is
when a student comes in with a researchquestion and not an answer,
and I think it's really important
to step outside yourselfwith genuine questions.
In my own experience,
that mindset really matters,because if I'm coming in
(20:38):
with a preconceived notionfor how something should be, I am going
to be hit with cognitive dissonance,because the odds that I'm right,
without researching,without knowing what other people
have learned on the topic,the odds are very low.
And so if I come in
an open book, ready to learn something,
(21:00):
I'm going to havea very different experience.
And I do think it takes courage to come inwith that kind of mindset.
There is a little bit of griefthat I think can happen
as we grow as people,because it means letting go
of old ways of thinkingand the people that we used to be.
(21:21):
And so
having the courage to
be open minded anyway,and to ask real questions
and genuinely want to know the answer,
that's braveand it makes learning so much easier.
It's really hard to do,but if you can do it,
(21:44):
it will make your experience as a student
much betterand you'll get a lot more out of it
if you're not fighting it the whole way,which is our natural inclination, right?
Like, this isn't a personal failing.
This is a psychological defense mechanism.
There are all these different waysthat people respond to cognitive
dissonance and to shame, and it's allto try to get away from the feeling.
(22:08):
So it's normal.
But if we can push through and try to be
brave and openminded, things change rapidly.
I love that.
Okay, so this has been,an amazing conversation.
I feel like I want to do a part twoat some point.
(22:28):
But before I let you go,I would love it if you were able to answer
one more question for me,which is a question
we ask all of our guests hereon CECI Connect.
What does connection mean to you?
To me, connection is feeling seen.
It's knowing that someone has takena moment to see me as I really am,
(22:50):
to understand this small piece of myselfthat I'm showing to them.
It's what community is built onand how we understand the world around us.
There are many ways to view learning,
and the one that I'm partial to is
the idea that
(23:10):
we learn together as social creatures.
So connection is what we need.
We need community to do anything to feelthat our lives make sense.
Because humans are social creatures,and you never know what small connection
will lead to a strong community.
So I advocate for seeking connectionswherever you can.
(23:32):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much for your time today,and I just appreciate your wisdom
and your willingness to be vulnerable
and bring sort of your experiencesto this conversation today.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for listening.
(23:53):
Our episode was hosted,written and engineered by Melanie
Rabine - Johnson, the academic resourcesand retention specialist
for the CECI undergraduate Advising Officeat Grand Valley State University.
You're listening to CECI Connect,
a podcast from the CECI Undergraduateadvising Office for the College
of Education and Community Innovationat Grand Valley State University.
Whether you're a student, teacher,professional or friend.
Welcome to this episode.
(00:27):
So today I have Jen Torreano,
who works with university librarieshere at Grand Valley, to talk to us
about learning new information
and how to make it easier on ourselvesand enjoy the process.
Jen, do you mind walking our listenersthrough your journey
of how you got to where you areprofessionally at university libraries?
(00:48):
Yeah, so,
I'll actually startfrom when I was a student
because I was a student hereat Grand Valley.
My major was English literaturewith a minor in classics
and when I was a student,I got a job at the writing center.
So I was a writing consultant herefor three years.
And in my last summerbefore my senior year,
(01:09):
the designs for the current Mary IdemaPew Library were being put together.
And it was these large groups of librarystaff and folks on campus
meeting with architects to dream.
And, I did a student summer scholars project
through the Officeof Undergraduate Research,
and my project focused on writing centerlibrary collaboration
(01:30):
in preparation for the knowledgemarket here in the library.
So the knowledge market is a spacewhere students can come in and get support
in research, writing,presentations, and digital literacy.
So the idea was that
the knowledge market would be rightacross from the service desk in a space
that's really visible to studentsas they're walking through the library.
(01:50):
They can think, oh my gosh,I have this presentation coming up.
I should pop inand talk to a speech consultant.
So I was doing this summer project,
and at the time, the current dean wanted
to put librarians into the spaceto provide support with research.
And I interviewed her for my project,and it was only supposed to be
like a 20 minute interview.
(02:11):
And we ended up talkingfor a couple of hours,
and by the end of it, she was interestedin having peer research consultants.
So when I graduated, the library hired me
and I did a
couple other jobs in the librarywhile doing that a little bit at the time.
But eventually that part of my jobgrew so big that it became my whole job.
And so now I'm the directorof the knowledge market and I run that
(02:33):
research serviceas well as work with our partners,
the Speech Lab and the Writing Centerand the Digital Creator Lab
to have all those services in a spacethat's useful for students.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
You know, you and I know each other.
We've worked together in the past,and so, you know how important
(02:54):
working at the Writing Center was for me
and my professional pathway,as well as my personal development.
Can you talk to our listenersa little bit about what
working in peermentoring at the Writing Center
did for you in your professionaland personal development?
Yeah.
So honestly, I thinkthe most important thing that job did
(03:17):
for me was give me confidencebecause I met so many different students
working as a consultant,and I had so many opportunities.
I think there are opportunitiesthat every student at the university has,
but not ones that everyone knows aboutor feels comfortable pursuing.
So I had a mentorand the director of the Writing Center
(03:38):
who encouraged me to do thingslike apply for a student summer
scholars project and offeredto be my mentor for that project.
And so
I think learning
how to speak with people,feeling comfortable
asking a lot of questionsand being curious about people's lives
and what they're learning,and then feeling comfortable
(04:00):
being curious more publicly myselfby pursuing research and
frankly, getting out of my comfort zoneand doing things like interviewing
library deans and traveling to Kentuckyto talk to their library deans
like that was so uncomfortable for me.
But doing it
not only helped medevelop as a person and a learner
(04:24):
and as a professional,but it also led to this whole career path
for me, that would have never happenedhad I not taken that risk.
So I think,I think working as a student here
and working in the writing centerhelped me feel comfortable taking risks.
Yes, I completely relate to that.
I also think that my experience workingat the Writing Center had a lot to do
(04:47):
with developing confidence and braveryand learning how to take risks.
But one of the thingsI think was particular about my experience
was knowing that working with studentswas different every single time, right?
Every single human beingwas their own individual, unique self.
And it was my job to sit downwith this stranger
(05:07):
and help themfigure out what they wanted to do.
So it could have been helping themunderstand
what their professor wanted from them,or it could have been helping them
figure outhow to accomplish an assignment.
Or it could have been helping them
figure out how to express themselvesauthentically.
I think I had to approach those situationswith curiosity,
(05:28):
because I couldn't predict who or whatwas going to be walking into the room.
Do you relate to that at all?
Yes, I think,
I think what you said about everyonebeing an individual and coming in
with their own lived experienceand their own way of perceiving
those experiences, means that we can'tever make assumptions about people.
(05:51):
And so
people also really likewhen you ask them questions.
People like to experience curiosity
and other people being curious about thembecause it makes them feel seen
and like someone is lookingfor that connection with them.
(06:11):
And so I think beforeworking at the Writing Center,
I was always worried about pryingor making people uncomfortable
by asking them questions.
I didn't want people to think I wasbeing nosy, and instead what I learned
is people enjoy
someone being interested in them.
Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too.
(06:34):
I ended up,
I think, getting more comfortableasking people questions after
I could feel like that warmthand excitement from the other person,
sort of as if they were feeling specialor noticed
and sort of the center of that moment.
One of the things I really wantedto pick your brain about today,
aside from the fact that we bothhave this thing in common about us
(06:56):
developing our confidence,bravery, and curiosity
when working with studentsat the writing center in the library,
is the fact that you and Iboth like helping people learn new things
when it's hard.Your expertise here in this thing called cognitive dissonance
is something I findsuper fascinating and like, truly helpful.
(07:17):
So can you talk to us a little bit hereabout cognitive
dissonance and its relationshipto learning new information?
Sure.
So cognitive dissonanceis psychological discomfort that results
from inconsistency between a person'sbeliefs and new information.
The term cognitive dissonancewas coined by Leon Festinger in
(07:37):
1957.
He wrote a book called “A Theoryof Cognitive Dissonance.”
I believe he was a psychologistwho did a number of large academic studies
that resulted in this theory.
So we experienced cognitive dissonanceall the time.
Whenever you learn informationthat doesn't match
(07:59):
what you thought was going to happen.
That's cognitive dissonance.
So scientistsexperienced cognitive dissonance
every time they make a hypothesis.
And things don't work out exactlythe way that they thought they would.
But as people,we make hypotheses all the time.
When I walked into the officethis morning, I thought,
oh, I'll probably be the only person herebecause it's fall break
(08:20):
when we're recording thisand it said half the office was here.
So that was a moment of cognitivedissonance, right?
So it can be really innocuous,or it can be
things that are more complicatedthat help that contradict
things that we believe about
the world, that make us feel uncertainabout how we fit into the world.
(08:41):
So they can range from small littleinnocuous moments
to things that are much more complicatedand much more difficult to overcome.
Right, okay.
So yes, this is exactly whyI wanted to talk with you,
because I think, you know, you mentionedwe both work at a college and,
you know, we're all learning thingsall the time.
(09:02):
And I think I see learningas the experience
of accumulating informationyou didn't have before.
And understandingit comes from where you put that
new information,whether it's in your head or your life
or your psyche,your framework of reality or whatever.
So integrating new informationmight involve some level of cognitive
(09:25):
dissonance.
And as educators,we might have a more joyful
embracing of discomfortwhen it comes to learning.
But for others who are gaining
new information,it might start out feeling uncomfortable.
But then maybe it startsto feel harmful or threatening.
Not just challenging.
(09:46):
Can you talk to us about the relationshipbetween discomfort,
challenge, and threatwhen it comes to learning new stuff?
Okay.
So there was this researchernamed William Perry
and he had it, sounds very intimidating.
He wrote something called WilliamPerry Scheme
(10:08):
of Intellectual and Ethical Development,which sounds very intimidating,
but basically William Perry studiedhow students
change over time while they're in college.
He studied how students
understand the world around themas they grow through college.
So what he found and granted,this was in the 1950s at Harvard.
(10:29):
It was all white men.
Right?
So this is a very narrow group of people
that can't you can't make broadgeneralizations from that.
But subsequent researchers have studiedthe same thing
in different kinds of groupsof college students right over time.
So the basic idea is people start out
by thinking of the worldas a binary in black and white.
(10:52):
So authority here that with a capital,
a authority is absoluteand all other interpretations are wrong.
So you know something to be true.
Anyone who believes differently fromyou is just wrong.
Okay, I think I get it.
Then as we grow, we get into this.
I like to call it the “who's to saymoment” of our lives where everyone has
(11:14):
a right to their own opinionand all opinions are equal.
And then finally we get to what he callsrelativism.
So it's the idea that some interpretationsare better than others,
and that value is determinedby weighing evidence in context.
So, people certainly have a rightto their own opinions,
but some of them are going to be betterthan others based on facts
(11:37):
based on the world in which we live.
Based on the contextin which we're applying that information.
So that's just how people grow over time.
So the way that we move from
everything is black and white to things
matter in context is by experiencingcognitive dissonance.
(11:58):
That's what pushes us along the scale.
So experiencing moments of discomfort
is necessary to expand your worldview.
You can't do itunless you experience discomfort.
Okay, now, That's brilliant.
I don't know it.
I mean, I have so many questions
(12:18):
now, and, you know,maybe we'll do a follow up conversation.
To get to those.
But I think where I get stuck
personally is that it has taken mea very long time in my life
to know the differencebetween discomfort and harm.
And I think that, you know, it's
(12:40):
it's really easy for me to notice, like,like I'm a, I'm a pianist,
and I've been playing pianosince I was a little kid.
And I can physically experience discomfortwhen I'm learning a new skill
on the piano.
Like, my fingers get tired.
My brain feels twisted.
I might get frustrated because I'm notpicking up the skill as fast as I want to.
(13:02):
So like, there's discomfort there,but I know it's not going to hurt me.
It's just going to push me.
Yeah.
Just like what you were saying
with cognitive dissonancepushing you through phases of development.
I was not always.
I mean, and maybe I'm not even good now.
I'm just better.
But I was not always goodat recognizing the difference between
(13:22):
what feels uncomfortable to learnand what feels threatening to learn.
So canyou talk to me and maybe people out there
who are also struggling with thisabout what harm or threat might do
when you're experiencingcognitive dissonance, or what
it might do when you're learningnew information.
(13:45):
Yeah.
So, I want to make a distinction herebecause there's cognitive dissonance
and then there is shame.
And they are related concepts,but they are not the same.
Brené Brown makes a distinctionbetween guilt and shame, and cognitive
dissonanceis akin to guilt in this analogy.
So guilt is I did something bad.
Shame is I am bad.
(14:06):
So when you're experiencingpsychological discomfort.
Knowing that it's something
that is making you uncomfortable,but that you're safe.
That's cognitive dissonance.
Feelingso uncomfortable that you feel unsafe.
That's shame. Okay, so
the difference tends
to be how close something feelsto the core of your identity.
(14:31):
So if you think of your identitylike a web, something might feel
innocuous, like,the example I like to give is
the belief that all students can payfor college with a minimum wage job.
Right.
That feels innocuous, like,just a thought that someone has, but
(14:52):
that connection.
That belief is connectedto your understanding
of America as a meritocracy.
It's connected to your understandingof your family's
place in societyand whether they have earned it.
It's connected to your understanding
(15:13):
of your community's value in the world.
So that that beliefthat may feel really distant
from your self-conceptis actually very close to it.
Yeah. And so,
some time,
something that you might thinkcould cause cognitive dissonance actually
causes shamebecause of how people understand it.
(15:37):
Yeah.
So I actually I copied down a quotebecause I just, I think about this quote
all the time.
There is this, scholar.
His name is Parker Palmer,
and he writes theseabsolutely beautiful books on teaching.
And when he's talkingabout the vulnerability of being struck
with a new thought, he says, “wegrab an old idea, a conceptual club
(15:58):
we know how to usebecause we have swung it
many times before,and we beat the surprise to death,
or we run away beforeit can make a mark on our minds.
” That'swhat happens when we feel shame, right?
When we're learning. Oh, that's very good.
So then I
think we can all acknowledgethat at this time
(16:18):
there is this sort of heightenedlevel of fear
or hostilitygoing on in rooms with American people.
And,
and I think this relates really wellto something you're talking about,
which is the ability to navigatebetween information,
making us feel to the core that,we are wrong.
(16:39):
Versusbeing able to experience the sensation
that the information we hadbefore was wrong.
And I think folks at all levelsof cognitive development can feel this.
But maybe that sense of shame or feeling
scared to explorenew information is just happening more now
because of our information ecosystemand the social climate
(17:03):
in which we live right now.
Can you share what you know
about what Grand Valley is doing to helpcollege students push through
the perceived hostilityor the possible sensations of fear.
When our students are learning new things.
What things are we doing hereto help students feel safer doing that?
(17:24):
Yeah. Yeah. So,
it's important to know that
when you feel shame,it is impossible to learn.
So shame bypasses
the neocortex, which is responsiblefor reasoning and learning.
And it's process in the limbic system,which is fight or flight.
And that seems a little dramaticwhen you first hear it.
(17:45):
But when you think abouthow essential connection
is to our survival, it makes sense.
When you read Shakespeare and Romeo'spunishment is that he's exiled.
That feels dramatic.
But when you understand that,that means that
he is losing his ability to survive,because survival
(18:08):
hinges on community.
It makes sense.
So with that in mind,
we work actively in the knowledge marketamong our peer learning services to
create an environment that is comfortablefor students to learn new information.
So when you're working with a
(18:30):
peer and you're not being evaluated,no one's judging.
Your work is not going to impactyour grade.
You don't have to tell your professorthat you came in if you don't want to.
You can have the kind of conversationwhere you can try something
and you can fail,and you can learn together
and conversationand there's no punishment for failing.
(18:51):
A lot of the time
we have to fail in order to try somethingwhen you're researching.
Odds are your search terms the first timearen't going to produce what you want,
and you learn from what happenedin those search results,
and you modify based on that information.
And so our peer learning services
here create the kind of environmentwhere you can be creative
(19:15):
and try things,because you can't learn without risk.
Yeah.
And I think
that circles all the way backto what we were talking about before,
when talking about our experiences
working at the Writing Centerwhen we were students.
What I hear in your storywas your development of bravery,
which I think is a skill
(19:36):
you can only develop when you experiencediscomfort in learning.
And we've both talkedabout how that bravery seemed
to develop alongsideour development of curiosity as well.
And I think bravery and curiositywere two skills
that got us through learning new stuffor becoming new people.
(19:56):
And I think one of the things I'd liketo give you a chance to speak to as well
is what relationshipyou see between bravery,
curiosity and cognitive dissonancefor college students
who are maybe using the knowledge marketor are on their own learning new stuff.
You know,what would you like to say to that?
(20:16):
So one thing we love to see inthe library is
when a student comes in with a researchquestion and not an answer,
and I think it's really important
to step outside yourselfwith genuine questions.
In my own experience,
that mindset really matters,because if I'm coming in
(20:38):
with a preconceived notionfor how something should be, I am going
to be hit with cognitive dissonance,because the odds that I'm right,
without researching,without knowing what other people
have learned on the topic,the odds are very low.
And so if I come in
an open book, ready to learn something,
(21:00):
I'm going to havea very different experience.
And I do think it takes courage to come inwith that kind of mindset.
There is a little bit of griefthat I think can happen
as we grow as people,because it means letting go
of old ways of thinkingand the people that we used to be.
(21:21):
And so
having the courage to
be open minded anyway,and to ask real questions
and genuinely want to know the answer,
that's braveand it makes learning so much easier.
It's really hard to do,but if you can do it,
(21:44):
it will make your experience as a student
much betterand you'll get a lot more out of it
if you're not fighting it the whole way,which is our natural inclination, right?
Like, this isn't a personal failing.
This is a psychological defense mechanism.
There are all these different waysthat people respond to cognitive
dissonance and to shame, and it's allto try to get away from the feeling.
(22:08):
So it's normal.
But if we can push through and try to be
brave and openminded, things change rapidly.
I love that.
Okay, so this has been,an amazing conversation.
I feel like I want to do a part twoat some point.
(22:28):
But before I let you go,I would love it if you were able to answer
one more question for me,which is a question
we ask all of our guests hereon CECI Connect.
What does connection mean to you?
To me, connection is feeling seen.
It's knowing that someone has takena moment to see me as I really am,
(22:50):
to understand this small piece of myselfthat I'm showing to them.
It's what community is built onand how we understand the world around us.
There are many ways to view learning,
and the one that I'm partial to is
the idea that
(23:10):
we learn together as social creatures.
So connection is what we need.
We need community to do anything to feelthat our lives make sense.
Because humans are social creatures,and you never know what small connection
will lead to a strong community.
So I advocate for seeking connectionswherever you can.
(23:32):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much for your time today,and I just appreciate your wisdom
and your willingness to be vulnerable
and bring sort of your experiencesto this conversation today.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for listening.
(23:53):
Our episode was hosted,written and engineered by Melanie
Rabine - Johnson, the academic resourcesand retention specialist
for the CECI undergraduate Advising Officeat Grand Valley State University.
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