August 15, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast, host Matt McChlery interviews author Christine Westhoff about her book 'Reframing the Prophetic.' They discuss the definition of the prophetic, its purpose, and its relevance in today's world. They also explore the difference between the office of a prophet and operating in a prophetic gifting. The conversation touches on the importance of testing and weighing prophetic words, as well as the role of community in stewarding the prophetic well. Discussion also explores some of the author's favourite things including cake, family and Bugs Bunny.
Links
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Visit Christine Westhoff's website reframingtheprophetic.com
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Takeaways
- The prophetic, as seen in Scripture, is divine revelation from God to align people with the covenant or kingdom purposes of God.
- The prophetic gift is still relevant and necessary in the present day, and there is no scriptural evidence that it was meant to cease.
- Not everyone is called to be a prophet, but all believers can prophesy and hear God's voice.
- The prophetic should be tested and weighed by the community of believers, and individuals should hold their side of the balance of power by discerning and aligning prophetic words with Scripture and the character of Christ.
- The prophetic is not just about giving encouraging words, but also about challenging and provoking individuals to realign themselves with the gospel and the purposes of God.
- The prophetic can be expressed through various forms of art, and not all prophecy needs to be spontaneous; it can be crafted and intentional.
- The Holy Spirit is teaching us to have eyes to see and ears to hear His leading and to discover His beauty in all things.
- To go deeper in exploring the prophetic gifting, read the book of Acts and observe how the prophetic is aligned with the mission of God.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Overview 01:27 Defining the Prophetic 03:24 The Relevance of the Prophetic Today 06:32 The Office of a Prophet vs. Operating in a Prophetic Gifting 10:20 Aligning the Prophetic with the Gospel 13:31 Crafting and Intentionality in the Prophetic 17:19 Testing and Weighing Prophetic Words 21:52 Receiving and Discerning Prophetic Words 23:21 False Prophets and Genuine Prophets 32:22 Communing with God and Discovering Beauty 36:14 Getting to Know Christine Westhoff
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery .com.
Well hello and welcome to the Christian Book Blurb podcast where we like to encourage youin your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian authors and
(00:27):
learn about their books, their lives.
and their faith.
Well, I am your host Matt McChlery.
Thanks so much for clicking over and joining me today on the podcast.
And on today's show, I'm going to be talking about reframing the prophetic with the authorChristine Westhoff.
Hello Christine, welcome to the podcast.
(00:47):
Hello Matt, thank you for having me.
It's great to have you with us today and you've written a great book called Reframing theProphetic, a biblical observation on an ancient
gift, but let's just start off the show just defining what the prophetic is.
(01:08):
It is the most important question.
And I love that you started there because a lot of people don't start there.
And I think it's one of the problems to be honest, is we don't have a often we can findourselves lacking in a clear definition of sorts.
And so
The best I've been able to come up with, with the help of a few theologian friends, is theprophetic, as we see in Scripture, is divine revelation, God communicating in one way or
(01:45):
another to a person and through a person for the sake of the body of Christ, the people ofGod, Israel, in order to align them to the covenant.
is what do we see it doing over and over again.
In the Old Testament, that was alignment to the law, which kept them in relationship andright relationship with God.
(02:07):
In the New Testament, our covenant is Jesus.
And so the prophetic should be aligning us with the person of Jesus every time we see itfunctioning.
So that's our current working definition.
So it's not just, I don't know, spooky or kind of wooly,
this is what's going to happen in the future kind of future predictions.
(02:30):
It's aligning people to the covenant or to the kingdom purposes of God.
So that's great.
Thank you.
So my next question then is, does God still operate through the prophetic gift today?
Because, you know, we've seen it in the Old Testament, they make quite a big deal of it inthe Old Testament.
(02:53):
There's a whole series of books devoted to it.
And I must admit, after reading your book, I'm starting to see the prophetic all over theNew Testament as well.
Thank you.
Not specifically your book, but it is everywhere.
But talking about the prophetic and actually it happening today, does it still happentoday?
(03:18):
absolutely.
In fact, we desperately need the true prophetic.
functioning in maturity and in health today is what I believe.
And there's nowhere in the scripture where it actually says that it's supposed to stopfunctioning.
In fact, we see it, as you just said, all the way through the New Testament.
(03:39):
And specifically, if you want to highlight the Book of Acts, we see it like in theMacedonian man showing up to like catapult the gospel into Europe.
We see it in Peter on the rooftop with this
strange vision of a sheep coming down out of heaven and somehow that leads him on thejourney to Cornelius's house, which catapults the gospel into the Gentile world.
(04:00):
Like it's everywhere.
works to break down barriers and open up avenues and advancing the gospel and the missionof the eternal purposes of Christ over and over again.
We need the prophetic to be doing what it's supposed to be doing.
(04:24):
Can everyone be a prophet?
And I know a phrase that quite specifically.
I guess what I'm asking is, is there a difference between the office of a prophet and sortof the experience or the varying levels of just operating in a prophetic gifting?
(04:48):
Yeah, I know there's a lot of different belief systems out there around this specificconversation.
And I understand why, because biblically, we look at Ephesians four.
I mean, the primary places that the spiritual gifts are mentioned are in First Corinthians12, Romans 12, and Ephesians four.
(05:09):
And the language in First Corinthians 12 and in Romans 12,
is similar.
It is the gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the body of Christ for the edification andexaltation and the building up and strengthening of the body of Christ.
But the language in Ephesians four is a bit different.
(05:29):
It's governmental in nature.
The gifts are the people themselves, these people that are given to the body of Christ to
lay foundations to equip the saints for the work of service to the building up of the bodyof Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of
God.
Like that the language is different and that's why we wrestle over like what's thedifference between somebody who might function in the prophetic or prophesy every now and
(06:00):
then and somebody who might be called with their life as
what we would call like a five -fold prophet, even though we don't see the word five -foldin the scripture.
And so that's where the understanding of the differences come from.
How you parse that out, what that looks like in each denomination is different.
(06:21):
And there's a lot of debate over that because Paul doesn't give a how -to.
He doesn't lay out, this is what it should look like.
All I know for sure is that
Not everybody is a called prophet.
All can prophesy.
All do hear God's voice for sure.
(06:42):
But some are called as the Ephesians for prophet where they are called to equip the saintsfor the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ until we all attain to
the unity of the faith and knowledge of Son of God, right?
So that's all we know for sure.
And I do compare it sometimes to like running, know, that if we have healthy functioninglegs, we are able to run, especially if somebody is chasing us with a gun or, you know, we
(07:14):
will find the ability to run if our lives are in danger.
Some people run on a fairly regular basis for exercise, but then some people run so muchthat they're actually called runners.
it's the function of running is the same.
But it's the way and the frequency and the purpose behind it is different, if that makessense.
(07:36):
That's a great example.
Thank you.
And you mentioned in that explanation, the Bible talks about the building up and thecomfort of the body of Christ, which the Bible does say.
But you also mention in your book, our Western understanding of comfort.
(07:57):
It's kind of...
lounging on the sofa with a box of popcorn kind of watching the TV.
Is this what they mean?
Because the reason I'm asking is because when we look at the Old Testament and when welook at and when we then hear some of the prophecies that happen now, it's kind of a big
(08:18):
difference between the challenging, provoking prophecies you see in parts of the Bible
and then you hear some prophecies today which is all you know everything's gonna be fineyour life's gonna be wonderful thus saith the Lord.
(08:39):
How does that marry up?
How does that match?
How does that fit in with our understanding of building up and comfort and what prophecyshould be doing?
You know Matt that conflict that you just named of how different it is
today and reconciling what we see the prophetic, what we call the prophetic ministry inour day.
(09:02):
It does seem unrecognizable according to the scripture.
And that has thrown me into quite a lot of study and work over many, many years and tryingto bring some clarity to that.
Like what is the prophetic supposed to be doing?
And that's
(09:23):
Like I said at the beginning, I do believe we see throughout the New Testament thatprophetic is to be aligning us to the eternal purposes of Christ.
Like that's what it's supposed to be doing.
We do not see anywhere in scripture where somebody is giving somebody else a happyencouraging word about their gifts and calling.
We don't.
The closest we see is, know, Ananias opening the eyes of Paul and he does.
(09:47):
It's this one -on -one moment where he is igniting.
one of the most powerful and influential men in human history.
And it's incredible.
And he is telling him what he's going to do, what he's going to be, what God is asking ofhim.
So we can't throw it out altogether.
There is moments of that.
(10:10):
we can't.
What I do question in the book and what we can talk about now is how I wonder if our well-crafted idol of
comfort in the West has pulled the center of gravity of how we have defined the propheticto what makes us comfortable, what builds up our ego rather than what is advancing the
(10:34):
purposes of the gospel and the earth.
And so that is the challenge.
I to me, it's a center of gravity topic.
It's not it's not that we should never say nice, encouraging things to people by the powerof the Holy Spirit.
He loves to love people.
I'm not opposed to the Holy Spirit speaking through somebody and telling them nice things.
(10:55):
That's completely fine.
We should absolutely do that.
But I think we've let, allowed that to define the prophetic and that I don't think shouldbe.
I think the sharp edge, we've lost the sharp edge of the prophetic in many places andthat's Well, that's what I like about your definition so much.
(11:16):
is the prophetic should be aligning us to the new covenant, to this gospel of Jesus.
And sometimes, let's face it, sometimes a word needs to be delivered to us that kind ofmakes us sit up, that makes us go, you know, I've got it wrong, I need to bring myself
(11:38):
back into alignment.
And actually,
That is for our building up and comfort, maybe not in the initial instant when we receivethat word, we feel very uncomfortable, we feel very provoked and challenged, but actually
if we act on that word, if we bring ourselves back into alignment with the gospel, bringour lives back into that alignment, that will ultimately result in our building up and
(12:04):
comfort, even though...
when we receive that word initially, it might stir other emotions up in us.
that's why I love that definition you gave so much.
So thank you for that.
Yeah.
Well, it's really important that we understand that all of us have our cultural filters.
We just do.
And we can't avoid it, but we can learn to be more aware of how our perception ofScripture, because of our culture,
(12:32):
is influenced.
I mean, Paul wrote that passage in 1 Corinthians 14 about edification, comfort, andexhortation from a prison cell.
he's, and he was, if you look at the words of Paul, he would regularly exhort them intoholiness.
He would correct their behavior.
(12:52):
Like it was, what did Paul mean in his day about edification, exhortation, and comfort?
What was his intent?
And I think that's an important thing for us to ponder.
That's really good.
I love the chapter in your book about prophets and artists.
And I wanted to focus on a point you made, is that not all prophecy needs to bespontaneous.
(13:20):
Can you expand on this?
Well, I do think that, I mean, obviously I don't think anybody would disagree that we arein a
a very fast paced culture.
expect, they call it the most immediate culture.
expect, we have an immediacy expectation if that's the right way of saying it ineverything that we do.
(13:45):
And so I wonder even as we have seen the prophetic functioning in the scripture, do weimagine Ezekiel being like caught up in an ecstatic immediate
kind of a thing and I don't even think that's accurate.
look, it's all of the prophecy of scripture was written down after the fact.
(14:07):
It wasn't in the process.
It wasn't like this spontaneous eruption.
We see some things, you know, where he saw a vision and he recorded it and he had thisdialogue with God, which does happen.
But then we also see David, David's, the Psalms are
(14:27):
Honestly, some of the most prophetic scriptures in the entire Bible.
In fact, there's more Messianic passages in the Psalms than there is in all of the otherprophetic books.
And so we have to look at the Psalms as some of our prophetic example.
And they were well -crafted rhyme schemes.
(14:49):
They were like Psalm 22, where he is going on and on about this vision that he's seeing ofwhat, well,
We presume it's a vision.
don't know what he's saying, to be honest, of Jesus on the cross and their casting lots.
Christofiction didn't exist in the day of David.
And so as he talked about, they pierced his hands and feet.
(15:11):
In Psalm 22, did David understand that?
And how did he, what did he understand and what did he not understand as he penned thesePsalms that were profoundly prophetic, but still he was crafting.
a poem and a song which takes time to work it through, to massage it, so to speak, to getjust the right words in place.
(15:37):
I think we just, some of the acts of the Old Testament prophets were, you know, some ofthem were wild.
mean, Ezekiel was lay on your side for 400 and some odd days.
That wasn't immediate.
Right?
And anyway, I just think once again, our cultural filter can push everything into anecstatic sense of immediacy, and that's just not the way the prophetic works.
(16:05):
And I also love in that chapter how you extend or expand our understanding of theprophetic, not just to being a spoken word, which it definitely is, but you can also have
prophetic art and prophetic dance and sculpture, and those things take time as well.
But we can still have that sense, that call that you see from the artist to align us backto the gospel, which is great.
(16:34):
How can we steward the prophetic well?
there's the question of the hour!
In order for the prophetic to be healthy, there's several passages in the New Testament.
One of them is 1 Thessalonians 5 .19, where it's, you we want all that to not despiseprophetic utterances, but to test everything to hold fast to what is good, to abstain from
(17:04):
every form of evil.
We are, we can see from passages like that specifically that this is now a gift that's tofunction in community, that this is a mutual stewardship.
of both the one who is prophesying and the one who is hearing.
And the responsibility on the hearer is where I think we need to really grow in, in mostcommunities that I am friends with today.
(17:33):
That's where the growth curve, we really want to see that happen more because then theprophetic is going to be held into account.
It's going to be forced to raise up in humility as well because all of the prophetic
is to be submitted to the entire body of Christ.
So it also goes back to teaching the people of God how to test in a way, helping them findtheir voice, helping them know that they are powerful, that they have not just the right,
(18:05):
but the command from God to test in a way, the prophetic, to not just swallow everything.
And that for them to understand and hold their side of the balance of power, right?
If we abdicate our power, we're giving another person way too much power, but then we'rejust as much at fault because we, we're not standing in the power that we have been
(18:26):
invited into from the Lord to hold that word carefully, to weigh it out according toscripture, let it line up with the character and the person of Christ.
mean, it's, the prophetic is going to get squirrely if we don't do our part in testing andweighing.
Testing and weighing is so important when it comes to prophecy.
And
(18:48):
Does this even apply to well -known prophets or celebrity, almost kind of prophets who youknow, wow, they've got a great track record of, of, you know, prophesying stuff and all my
friend had a word from this person and it was spot on.
So when you're receiving a word from that person, is it a case of just saying, well, youknow, this does say it's the Lord, this is what's going on or, or are we called to even
(19:17):
test?
even those words, even from people who we respect greatly in the prophetic sort of giftarea.
Well, Matt, I honestly think that the those people should be tested and weighed even morecarefully because they are carrying more authority.
And when somebody carries more authority, their words have more power to to bless as wellas to harm.
(19:44):
And so the more authority somebody has, the more we need to test in a way their words.
Everybody is going to mess it up.
And that's just a tension that we live with as
leaders as pastors, as prophetic people, as teachers.
Like we all have to reconcile and live in that tension where God for some wild reason, Godhas chosen to use, move through frail human beings.
(20:15):
And that means that it's going to come, everything that we do is going to come at a costof possible failure and mistakes.
And we need to hold that.
in our view at all times.
Nobody will ever outgrow their humanity ever.
you know, those people, there's nobody beyond, there's nobody above being tested andweighed.
(20:38):
And I don't know what it is, because I have seen that dynamic that you just laid out somany times where because somebody has their famous or their well -known, we just swallow
whatever they say.
I think that's the opposite that it should be.
I think we should test them more thoroughly, actually.
And when you were talking about us growing in our responsibility as receivers of the word,rather than, you know, how to deliver prophetic words, you're right, we do need to grow
(21:09):
more in understanding how to receive a word.
And in your book, something really helpful you mentioned was to almost imagine this kindof waiting room where you put the word before you sort of accept it, and then you choose
the good bits and chuck out the rubbish.
Just explain that to us, explain that because it's a great picture to help.
(21:30):
Yeah, I often...
Sometimes it's a table that I imagine that's between me and the person prophesying and ithelps me to put a pause in between us.
That they can prophesy but it first goes on the table and that table gives me that timeand space.
Whether it's a waiting room or a table, it gives me...
(21:52):
that time and space to be able to weigh it out before I take it into my heart.
And most of us need that time.
Most of us need that space.
Many prophetic words have so much going on all at the same time that it can feeloverwhelming.
And so there's, I like to encourage people to just say, can we, that goes on a table.
(22:16):
Is it okay if I put that on a table so I can pray over that?
Like have some of those phrases ready.
in your back pocket for when somebody does share a prophetic word.
And if it's public, then you can just imagine there's that table there, it's going on thetable.
And then I get to go home and sit at that table with the Lord and my open Bible andevaluate like, Lord, is this from you?
(22:39):
What parts of this are from you?
What parts of this should I not receive?
You know, and work it through.
That is really helpful.
by putting things on the table and us being encouraged to test words, because even thosereally experienced and seasoned can get things wrong.
(23:03):
If someone gets something wrong, does that immediately make them a false prophet?
Or how can we tell who is a false prophet and who is genuine?
That's a really complicated conversation.
My first answer is no, if somebody
Get something wrong that doesn't make them a false prophet.
(23:24):
We will all get fits wrong And I think the scripture makes that clear, you know and evenin money It's first John he says let two or three prophets speak and let the others pass
judgment they we have those scriptures in black and white in print because We we can seethat there will be times where there are things spoken that are not
(23:50):
quite right.
And I think we, I just the same way that we don't declare somebody a false teacher if theyteach something that isn't quite right, you know, or an evangelist, a false evangelist, if
he presents the gospel to somebody in kind of a sloppy way.
I mean, we don't hope, we understand the grace that humans need to grow in especially.
(24:14):
But what
The question that you asked about when do we say somebody is a false prophet is a reallyhard question, Matt.
And I honestly don't have a very clear -cut answer for you.
I don't think you can make a declaration on somebody as a false prophet without knowingthem.
(24:37):
Because I think it's going to be visible.
The questions that I would want to ask is, they teachable?
Are they in community?
Are they in known relationship where others can speak into their life?
Are they humble?
Can they mess up and be corrected?
What's their marriage like?
How do they parent their children?
(24:58):
Is the character of Christ visible in and through them?
That's why I think our famous social media prophets, especially over here in the States,really, I'm like, don't even, I don't know how I feel about that because
It's, we don't know any of those things, you know?
And I'm not saying that shouldn't happen.
I just, struggle with it.
(25:21):
so over many, many, many years, there's only been a couple of people in my life that Ihave wondered.
I think they might be a false prophet, but only because I've seen and known where theywould not receive correction and they, were leading people astray.
They were pulling them away from the Lord over and over again.
(25:42):
and towards themselves, you know?
Yeah, I guess it comes back to that thing we talking about earlier about testing propheticwords and testing all prophetic words.
I guess sometimes we hold up the sort of declaring someone to be a true prophet or a falseprophet as like a safety net, as it were.
we can believe this person, but we can't believe that person.
(26:03):
And it really doesn't work very well.
So it's much better to test each word from every person.
Because as you say, everyone can get things wrong and everyone can mix theirinterpretation with actually what God's actually saying or their cultural background or
their life understanding and what they've been through in life might affect or color whatthey bring.
(26:28):
So being able to hold that at an arm's length and then sort of try and separate what is ofGod and what is extra stuff that I don't have to.
pay close attention to is really helpful.
And we should do that no matter who the person is, whether it's a false profit or a trueprofit or whatever.
(26:51):
And that's where the safety net is rather than sort of using a label of, you know, they'reall right and they're not, because that doesn't work so well.
It doesn't.
I would totally agree with you.
And it's
And it's hard work sometimes to weigh these words out, especially if you're in a placewhere there's a lot of prophetic flowing around.
(27:12):
It is, it takes work and it takes time.
But if, if God is speaking, it matters.
Like it really matters.
And if somebody is claiming that God is speaking and it's not God, that really matterstoo.
And we need to take it very seriously.
Yeah, you're right.
(27:33):
Just before we have a quick little break.
What top tips can you give to someone who has wanted to go deeper in exploring theprophetic gifting?
read the book of Acts and underline every moment that seems like it could possibly beprophetic and see if you can observe what the prophetic is doing and what mission it's on.
(28:02):
Because without purpose, we are, if we don't know the purpose of a thing, we are destinedto abuse it.
So we have to understand the purpose.
That's great.
That's great advice.
Thank you.
And we'll be back talking to Christine Westoff a little bit more after this break.
So do join us just after these.
(28:43):
to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blur podcast.
I've been chatting with the author Christine Westoff about her book called Reframing theProphetic Biblical Observation of an Ancient Gift.
Now, Christine, before the break, we're talking a lot about prophecy and about your bookand your insights into that, which has been fantastic.
(29:09):
But at this side of the break, we like to find out a little bit more about you as aperson.
where do you live?
What do you do for fun?
All that kind of thing.
Well, I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is the center of the U .S.
We refer to it as the buckle of the Bible Belt.
(29:29):
So it's a very interesting part of the country.
I've been married for 33 years.
He's the love of my life.
Marriage is a marvelous gift.
I have two adult sons.
are 28 and 30.
They are both married.
My oldest son and his wife have a baby, so I'm a grandparent.
(29:51):
He's almost two years old, so he's the joy of our life.
They live here in Tulsa nearby, so I'm really happy about that.
My younger son, he's 28, he and his wife live in Nashville, Tennessee.
Both of my sons are artists, so one's a filmmaker, one is a musician, songwriter, andthen...
(30:15):
and they are living and exploring their artistry with their whole life.
So I'm a big fan.
My husband and I are both spiritual directors.
So we spend most of our time teaching, developing content and doing a lot of spiritualdirection work.
So we find ourselves rather busy.
(30:38):
But for fun, I play with my grandbaby and I go on a lot of walks, would be my two favoritethings.
Great.
And do you have a favorite food that you like to eat?
Thai, Thai food for sure.
Well, Thai food.
but then a really close second would be British curry.
(30:59):
Like there's something about the curry that I have in England that is better thananything.
I just love it so much.
That's fantastic.
And, if you were a cartoon character, who would you be?
And why?
I would love to be Bugs Bunny.
Do you know who Bugs Bunny is?
(31:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
don't, I mean, is he on anymore?
I don't even know if this generation knows who Bugs Bunny is.
quite old, isn't he?
I think he's very old.
So this is aging me for sure, but I've always been a Bugs Bunny fan.
I just think he's so smart and so funny.
And he just always seems like he's five steps ahead of the bad guys.
(31:41):
So Bugs Bunny would be my favorite.
Yeah, that's great.
Thank you.
quick fire, tea or coffee?
coffee.
And chocolate or sweets?
Mm, sweets.
Okay.
cake or a piece of fruit?
(32:01):
Cake, for sure.
What kind of cake?
What's your best cake?
Lemon, probably.
Okay.
good.
Wonderful.
Now here's a good question for you.
What is the Holy Spirit doing in your life or what does he put on your heart at themoment?
(32:22):
You know, right now, I feel like he's teaching me, and I think this is a lifelong thing,Matt, to be honest.
But we're really leaning into beauty and the idea that beauty is everywhere we look if wehave eyes to see, and beauty always reveals Christ.
(32:45):
so where Jesus says, let him have ears to hear, let him have eyes to see, I am
That's my prayer that I would have eyes to see and ears to hear what the Holy Spirit isdoing, where He's revealing His glory everywhere throughout every day.
I want to be able to find Him in a leaf on the ground as well as in the face of ahomeless.
(33:08):
I want to be able to discover Him in the middle of the hardest, darkest situations.
I want...
It's just that.
And it's much more about communion with him than learning any kind of new thing, like newcraft or so, you know, I don't care so much about learning how to prophesy.
(33:32):
I just want to know him.
No, that's great.
That's fantastic.
And have you got anything coming up?
I always like to ask the authors I speak to, often once you've done, done a book,
you have something else possibly simmering away in the background.
Is there anything you can tell us about that you're working on or something coming upsoon?
(33:57):
We're actually working on another whole curriculum.
So along with the reframing the prophetic book, we have a whole reframing the propheticcurriculum that we've actually been writing that for several years now.
It's a 14 week full college level course curriculum covering the same topics that are inthe book.
And then you can jump into that journey.
(34:18):
But now we're working on building another curriculum, basically on what I just talkedabout, listening to God, listening to his voice, his abiding presence, his leading,
learning how to be more sensitive to the ways of the Holy Spirit, discovering the power ofbeauty everywhere we look.
(34:44):
that's gonna be my next book that I am...
currently working on.
That sounds great.
Yeah, I look forward to reading that one.
And where can people find you?
Are you online?
Where can they get hold of these curriculums you're talking about?
Where can they buy the book?
The book is on Amazon almost everywhere, I think.
(35:07):
So there's that.
It's in a few bookstores as well.
Online it's reframingtheprophetic .com.
So check us out there.
That's where you can get on an email list.
You'll be updated on when the new courses, we've got about three more courses we'reworking on that will be coming out soon that I'm very excited about.
(35:30):
Social media, we've got Re -Framing the Prophetic on Instagram and Facebook and that'sprobably your best bet.
That's great.
Thank you.
So just for those who are listening, if you want to find out more about Christian Westhoffor look at some of these
curriculum materials or be ready for the next book when it comes out or even in fact getthis book, Re -Framing the Prophetic and find out more about it.
(35:52):
I'm going to put a link to the Re -Framing the Prophetic website in the show notes of thisepisode.
So that makes it super easy for you to just click on that and you can get straight towhere you want to be.
So do go and have a look at the Re -Framing the Prophetic website.
Well, thank you, Christine.
Thank you so much for spending some time with me and
(36:14):
being part of this podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you, Matt.
It was a joy.
And thank you as well for listening to this episode of The Christian Book Blur.
Don't forget, this podcast comes out twice a month on the 1st and on the 15th.
So I'll be back really soon chatting to another fantastic Christian author about theirbooks, their life and their faith.
(36:37):
Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you soon.
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery .com.
Well hello and welcome to the Christian Book Blurb podcast where we like to encourage youin your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian authors and
(00:27):
learn about their books, their lives.
and their faith.
Well, I am your host Matt McChlery.
Thanks so much for clicking over and joining me today on the podcast.
And on today's show, I'm going to be talking about reframing the prophetic with the authorChristine Westhoff.
Hello Christine, welcome to the podcast.
(00:47):
Hello Matt, thank you for having me.
It's great to have you with us today and you've written a great book called Reframing theProphetic, a biblical observation on an ancient
gift, but let's just start off the show just defining what the prophetic is.
(01:08):
It is the most important question.
And I love that you started there because a lot of people don't start there.
And I think it's one of the problems to be honest, is we don't have a often we can findourselves lacking in a clear definition of sorts.
And so
The best I've been able to come up with, with the help of a few theologian friends, is theprophetic, as we see in Scripture, is divine revelation, God communicating in one way or
(01:45):
another to a person and through a person for the sake of the body of Christ, the people ofGod, Israel, in order to align them to the covenant.
is what do we see it doing over and over again.
In the Old Testament, that was alignment to the law, which kept them in relationship andright relationship with God.
(02:07):
In the New Testament, our covenant is Jesus.
And so the prophetic should be aligning us with the person of Jesus every time we see itfunctioning.
So that's our current working definition.
So it's not just, I don't know, spooky or kind of wooly,
this is what's going to happen in the future kind of future predictions.
(02:30):
It's aligning people to the covenant or to the kingdom purposes of God.
So that's great.
Thank you.
So my next question then is, does God still operate through the prophetic gift today?
Because, you know, we've seen it in the Old Testament, they make quite a big deal of it inthe Old Testament.
(02:53):
There's a whole series of books devoted to it.
And I must admit, after reading your book, I'm starting to see the prophetic all over theNew Testament as well.
Thank you.
Not specifically your book, but it is everywhere.
But talking about the prophetic and actually it happening today, does it still happentoday?
(03:18):
absolutely.
In fact, we desperately need the true prophetic.
functioning in maturity and in health today is what I believe.
And there's nowhere in the scripture where it actually says that it's supposed to stopfunctioning.
In fact, we see it, as you just said, all the way through the New Testament.
(03:39):
And specifically, if you want to highlight the Book of Acts, we see it like in theMacedonian man showing up to like catapult the gospel into Europe.
We see it in Peter on the rooftop with this
strange vision of a sheep coming down out of heaven and somehow that leads him on thejourney to Cornelius's house, which catapults the gospel into the Gentile world.
(04:00):
Like it's everywhere.
works to break down barriers and open up avenues and advancing the gospel and the missionof the eternal purposes of Christ over and over again.
We need the prophetic to be doing what it's supposed to be doing.
(04:24):
Can everyone be a prophet?
And I know a phrase that quite specifically.
I guess what I'm asking is, is there a difference between the office of a prophet and sortof the experience or the varying levels of just operating in a prophetic gifting?
(04:48):
Yeah, I know there's a lot of different belief systems out there around this specificconversation.
And I understand why, because biblically, we look at Ephesians four.
I mean, the primary places that the spiritual gifts are mentioned are in First Corinthians12, Romans 12, and Ephesians four.
(05:09):
And the language in First Corinthians 12 and in Romans 12,
is similar.
It is the gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the body of Christ for the edification andexaltation and the building up and strengthening of the body of Christ.
But the language in Ephesians four is a bit different.
(05:29):
It's governmental in nature.
The gifts are the people themselves, these people that are given to the body of Christ to
lay foundations to equip the saints for the work of service to the building up of the bodyof Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of
God.
Like that the language is different and that's why we wrestle over like what's thedifference between somebody who might function in the prophetic or prophesy every now and
(06:00):
then and somebody who might be called with their life as
what we would call like a five -fold prophet, even though we don't see the word five -foldin the scripture.
And so that's where the understanding of the differences come from.
How you parse that out, what that looks like in each denomination is different.
(06:21):
And there's a lot of debate over that because Paul doesn't give a how -to.
He doesn't lay out, this is what it should look like.
All I know for sure is that
Not everybody is a called prophet.
All can prophesy.
All do hear God's voice for sure.
(06:42):
But some are called as the Ephesians for prophet where they are called to equip the saintsfor the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ until we all attain to
the unity of the faith and knowledge of Son of God, right?
So that's all we know for sure.
And I do compare it sometimes to like running, know, that if we have healthy functioninglegs, we are able to run, especially if somebody is chasing us with a gun or, you know, we
(07:14):
will find the ability to run if our lives are in danger.
Some people run on a fairly regular basis for exercise, but then some people run so muchthat they're actually called runners.
it's the function of running is the same.
But it's the way and the frequency and the purpose behind it is different, if that makessense.
(07:36):
That's a great example.
Thank you.
And you mentioned in that explanation, the Bible talks about the building up and thecomfort of the body of Christ, which the Bible does say.
But you also mention in your book, our Western understanding of comfort.
(07:57):
It's kind of...
lounging on the sofa with a box of popcorn kind of watching the TV.
Is this what they mean?
Because the reason I'm asking is because when we look at the Old Testament and when welook at and when we then hear some of the prophecies that happen now, it's kind of a big
(08:18):
difference between the challenging, provoking prophecies you see in parts of the Bible
and then you hear some prophecies today which is all you know everything's gonna be fineyour life's gonna be wonderful thus saith the Lord.
(08:39):
How does that marry up?
How does that match?
How does that fit in with our understanding of building up and comfort and what prophecyshould be doing?
You know Matt that conflict that you just named of how different it is
today and reconciling what we see the prophetic, what we call the prophetic ministry inour day.
(09:02):
It does seem unrecognizable according to the scripture.
And that has thrown me into quite a lot of study and work over many, many years and tryingto bring some clarity to that.
Like what is the prophetic supposed to be doing?
And that's
(09:23):
Like I said at the beginning, I do believe we see throughout the New Testament thatprophetic is to be aligning us to the eternal purposes of Christ.
Like that's what it's supposed to be doing.
We do not see anywhere in scripture where somebody is giving somebody else a happyencouraging word about their gifts and calling.
We don't.
The closest we see is, know, Ananias opening the eyes of Paul and he does.
(09:47):
It's this one -on -one moment where he is igniting.
one of the most powerful and influential men in human history.
And it's incredible.
And he is telling him what he's going to do, what he's going to be, what God is asking ofhim.
So we can't throw it out altogether.
There is moments of that.
(10:10):
we can't.
What I do question in the book and what we can talk about now is how I wonder if our well-crafted idol of
comfort in the West has pulled the center of gravity of how we have defined the propheticto what makes us comfortable, what builds up our ego rather than what is advancing the
(10:34):
purposes of the gospel and the earth.
And so that is the challenge.
I to me, it's a center of gravity topic.
It's not it's not that we should never say nice, encouraging things to people by the powerof the Holy Spirit.
He loves to love people.
I'm not opposed to the Holy Spirit speaking through somebody and telling them nice things.
(10:55):
That's completely fine.
We should absolutely do that.
But I think we've let, allowed that to define the prophetic and that I don't think shouldbe.
I think the sharp edge, we've lost the sharp edge of the prophetic in many places andthat's Well, that's what I like about your definition so much.
(11:16):
is the prophetic should be aligning us to the new covenant, to this gospel of Jesus.
And sometimes, let's face it, sometimes a word needs to be delivered to us that kind ofmakes us sit up, that makes us go, you know, I've got it wrong, I need to bring myself
(11:38):
back into alignment.
And actually,
That is for our building up and comfort, maybe not in the initial instant when we receivethat word, we feel very uncomfortable, we feel very provoked and challenged, but actually
if we act on that word, if we bring ourselves back into alignment with the gospel, bringour lives back into that alignment, that will ultimately result in our building up and
(12:04):
comfort, even though...
when we receive that word initially, it might stir other emotions up in us.
that's why I love that definition you gave so much.
So thank you for that.
Yeah.
Well, it's really important that we understand that all of us have our cultural filters.
We just do.
And we can't avoid it, but we can learn to be more aware of how our perception ofScripture, because of our culture,
(12:32):
is influenced.
I mean, Paul wrote that passage in 1 Corinthians 14 about edification, comfort, andexhortation from a prison cell.
he's, and he was, if you look at the words of Paul, he would regularly exhort them intoholiness.
He would correct their behavior.
(12:52):
Like it was, what did Paul mean in his day about edification, exhortation, and comfort?
What was his intent?
And I think that's an important thing for us to ponder.
That's really good.
I love the chapter in your book about prophets and artists.
And I wanted to focus on a point you made, is that not all prophecy needs to bespontaneous.
(13:20):
Can you expand on this?
Well, I do think that, I mean, obviously I don't think anybody would disagree that we arein a
a very fast paced culture.
expect, they call it the most immediate culture.
expect, we have an immediacy expectation if that's the right way of saying it ineverything that we do.
(13:45):
And so I wonder even as we have seen the prophetic functioning in the scripture, do weimagine Ezekiel being like caught up in an ecstatic immediate
kind of a thing and I don't even think that's accurate.
look, it's all of the prophecy of scripture was written down after the fact.
(14:07):
It wasn't in the process.
It wasn't like this spontaneous eruption.
We see some things, you know, where he saw a vision and he recorded it and he had thisdialogue with God, which does happen.
But then we also see David, David's, the Psalms are
(14:27):
Honestly, some of the most prophetic scriptures in the entire Bible.
In fact, there's more Messianic passages in the Psalms than there is in all of the otherprophetic books.
And so we have to look at the Psalms as some of our prophetic example.
And they were well -crafted rhyme schemes.
(14:49):
They were like Psalm 22, where he is going on and on about this vision that he's seeing ofwhat, well,
We presume it's a vision.
don't know what he's saying, to be honest, of Jesus on the cross and their casting lots.
Christofiction didn't exist in the day of David.
And so as he talked about, they pierced his hands and feet.
(15:11):
In Psalm 22, did David understand that?
And how did he, what did he understand and what did he not understand as he penned thesePsalms that were profoundly prophetic, but still he was crafting.
a poem and a song which takes time to work it through, to massage it, so to speak, to getjust the right words in place.
(15:37):
I think we just, some of the acts of the Old Testament prophets were, you know, some ofthem were wild.
mean, Ezekiel was lay on your side for 400 and some odd days.
That wasn't immediate.
Right?
And anyway, I just think once again, our cultural filter can push everything into anecstatic sense of immediacy, and that's just not the way the prophetic works.
(16:05):
And I also love in that chapter how you extend or expand our understanding of theprophetic, not just to being a spoken word, which it definitely is, but you can also have
prophetic art and prophetic dance and sculpture, and those things take time as well.
But we can still have that sense, that call that you see from the artist to align us backto the gospel, which is great.
(16:34):
How can we steward the prophetic well?
there's the question of the hour!
In order for the prophetic to be healthy, there's several passages in the New Testament.
One of them is 1 Thessalonians 5 .19, where it's, you we want all that to not despiseprophetic utterances, but to test everything to hold fast to what is good, to abstain from
(17:04):
every form of evil.
We are, we can see from passages like that specifically that this is now a gift that's tofunction in community, that this is a mutual stewardship.
of both the one who is prophesying and the one who is hearing.
And the responsibility on the hearer is where I think we need to really grow in, in mostcommunities that I am friends with today.
(17:33):
That's where the growth curve, we really want to see that happen more because then theprophetic is going to be held into account.
It's going to be forced to raise up in humility as well because all of the prophetic
is to be submitted to the entire body of Christ.
So it also goes back to teaching the people of God how to test in a way, helping them findtheir voice, helping them know that they are powerful, that they have not just the right,
(18:05):
but the command from God to test in a way, the prophetic, to not just swallow everything.
And that for them to understand and hold their side of the balance of power, right?
If we abdicate our power, we're giving another person way too much power, but then we'rejust as much at fault because we, we're not standing in the power that we have been
(18:26):
invited into from the Lord to hold that word carefully, to weigh it out according toscripture, let it line up with the character and the person of Christ.
mean, it's, the prophetic is going to get squirrely if we don't do our part in testing andweighing.
Testing and weighing is so important when it comes to prophecy.
And
(18:48):
Does this even apply to well -known prophets or celebrity, almost kind of prophets who youknow, wow, they've got a great track record of, of, you know, prophesying stuff and all my
friend had a word from this person and it was spot on.
So when you're receiving a word from that person, is it a case of just saying, well, youknow, this does say it's the Lord, this is what's going on or, or are we called to even
(19:17):
test?
even those words, even from people who we respect greatly in the prophetic sort of giftarea.
Well, Matt, I honestly think that the those people should be tested and weighed even morecarefully because they are carrying more authority.
And when somebody carries more authority, their words have more power to to bless as wellas to harm.
(19:44):
And so the more authority somebody has, the more we need to test in a way their words.
Everybody is going to mess it up.
And that's just a tension that we live with as
leaders as pastors, as prophetic people, as teachers.
Like we all have to reconcile and live in that tension where God for some wild reason, Godhas chosen to use, move through frail human beings.
(20:15):
And that means that it's going to come, everything that we do is going to come at a costof possible failure and mistakes.
And we need to hold that.
in our view at all times.
Nobody will ever outgrow their humanity ever.
you know, those people, there's nobody beyond, there's nobody above being tested andweighed.
(20:38):
And I don't know what it is, because I have seen that dynamic that you just laid out somany times where because somebody has their famous or their well -known, we just swallow
whatever they say.
I think that's the opposite that it should be.
I think we should test them more thoroughly, actually.
And when you were talking about us growing in our responsibility as receivers of the word,rather than, you know, how to deliver prophetic words, you're right, we do need to grow
(21:09):
more in understanding how to receive a word.
And in your book, something really helpful you mentioned was to almost imagine this kindof waiting room where you put the word before you sort of accept it, and then you choose
the good bits and chuck out the rubbish.
Just explain that to us, explain that because it's a great picture to help.
(21:30):
Yeah, I often...
Sometimes it's a table that I imagine that's between me and the person prophesying and ithelps me to put a pause in between us.
That they can prophesy but it first goes on the table and that table gives me that timeand space.
Whether it's a waiting room or a table, it gives me...
(21:52):
that time and space to be able to weigh it out before I take it into my heart.
And most of us need that time.
Most of us need that space.
Many prophetic words have so much going on all at the same time that it can feeloverwhelming.
And so there's, I like to encourage people to just say, can we, that goes on a table.
(22:16):
Is it okay if I put that on a table so I can pray over that?
Like have some of those phrases ready.
in your back pocket for when somebody does share a prophetic word.
And if it's public, then you can just imagine there's that table there, it's going on thetable.
And then I get to go home and sit at that table with the Lord and my open Bible andevaluate like, Lord, is this from you?
(22:39):
What parts of this are from you?
What parts of this should I not receive?
You know, and work it through.
That is really helpful.
by putting things on the table and us being encouraged to test words, because even thosereally experienced and seasoned can get things wrong.
(23:03):
If someone gets something wrong, does that immediately make them a false prophet?
Or how can we tell who is a false prophet and who is genuine?
That's a really complicated conversation.
My first answer is no, if somebody
Get something wrong that doesn't make them a false prophet.
(23:24):
We will all get fits wrong And I think the scripture makes that clear, you know and evenin money It's first John he says let two or three prophets speak and let the others pass
judgment they we have those scriptures in black and white in print because We we can seethat there will be times where there are things spoken that are not
(23:50):
quite right.
And I think we, I just the same way that we don't declare somebody a false teacher if theyteach something that isn't quite right, you know, or an evangelist, a false evangelist, if
he presents the gospel to somebody in kind of a sloppy way.
I mean, we don't hope, we understand the grace that humans need to grow in especially.
(24:14):
But what
The question that you asked about when do we say somebody is a false prophet is a reallyhard question, Matt.
And I honestly don't have a very clear -cut answer for you.
I don't think you can make a declaration on somebody as a false prophet without knowingthem.
(24:37):
Because I think it's going to be visible.
The questions that I would want to ask is, they teachable?
Are they in community?
Are they in known relationship where others can speak into their life?
Are they humble?
Can they mess up and be corrected?
What's their marriage like?
How do they parent their children?
(24:58):
Is the character of Christ visible in and through them?
That's why I think our famous social media prophets, especially over here in the States,really, I'm like, don't even, I don't know how I feel about that because
It's, we don't know any of those things, you know?
And I'm not saying that shouldn't happen.
I just, struggle with it.
(25:21):
so over many, many, many years, there's only been a couple of people in my life that Ihave wondered.
I think they might be a false prophet, but only because I've seen and known where theywould not receive correction and they, were leading people astray.
They were pulling them away from the Lord over and over again.
(25:42):
and towards themselves, you know?
Yeah, I guess it comes back to that thing we talking about earlier about testing propheticwords and testing all prophetic words.
I guess sometimes we hold up the sort of declaring someone to be a true prophet or a falseprophet as like a safety net, as it were.
we can believe this person, but we can't believe that person.
(26:03):
And it really doesn't work very well.
So it's much better to test each word from every person.
Because as you say, everyone can get things wrong and everyone can mix theirinterpretation with actually what God's actually saying or their cultural background or
their life understanding and what they've been through in life might affect or color whatthey bring.
(26:28):
So being able to hold that at an arm's length and then sort of try and separate what is ofGod and what is extra stuff that I don't have to.
pay close attention to is really helpful.
And we should do that no matter who the person is, whether it's a false profit or a trueprofit or whatever.
(26:51):
And that's where the safety net is rather than sort of using a label of, you know, they'reall right and they're not, because that doesn't work so well.
It doesn't.
I would totally agree with you.
And it's
And it's hard work sometimes to weigh these words out, especially if you're in a placewhere there's a lot of prophetic flowing around.
(27:12):
It is, it takes work and it takes time.
But if, if God is speaking, it matters.
Like it really matters.
And if somebody is claiming that God is speaking and it's not God, that really matterstoo.
And we need to take it very seriously.
Yeah, you're right.
(27:33):
Just before we have a quick little break.
What top tips can you give to someone who has wanted to go deeper in exploring theprophetic gifting?
read the book of Acts and underline every moment that seems like it could possibly beprophetic and see if you can observe what the prophetic is doing and what mission it's on.
(28:02):
Because without purpose, we are, if we don't know the purpose of a thing, we are destinedto abuse it.
So we have to understand the purpose.
That's great.
That's great advice.
Thank you.
And we'll be back talking to Christine Westoff a little bit more after this break.
So do join us just after these.
(28:43):
to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blur podcast.
I've been chatting with the author Christine Westoff about her book called Reframing theProphetic Biblical Observation of an Ancient Gift.
Now, Christine, before the break, we're talking a lot about prophecy and about your bookand your insights into that, which has been fantastic.
(29:09):
But at this side of the break, we like to find out a little bit more about you as aperson.
where do you live?
What do you do for fun?
All that kind of thing.
Well, I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is the center of the U .S.
We refer to it as the buckle of the Bible Belt.
(29:29):
So it's a very interesting part of the country.
I've been married for 33 years.
He's the love of my life.
Marriage is a marvelous gift.
I have two adult sons.
are 28 and 30.
They are both married.
My oldest son and his wife have a baby, so I'm a grandparent.
(29:51):
He's almost two years old, so he's the joy of our life.
They live here in Tulsa nearby, so I'm really happy about that.
My younger son, he's 28, he and his wife live in Nashville, Tennessee.
Both of my sons are artists, so one's a filmmaker, one is a musician, songwriter, andthen...
(30:15):
and they are living and exploring their artistry with their whole life.
So I'm a big fan.
My husband and I are both spiritual directors.
So we spend most of our time teaching, developing content and doing a lot of spiritualdirection work.
So we find ourselves rather busy.
(30:38):
But for fun, I play with my grandbaby and I go on a lot of walks, would be my two favoritethings.
Great.
And do you have a favorite food that you like to eat?
Thai, Thai food for sure.
Well, Thai food.
but then a really close second would be British curry.
(30:59):
Like there's something about the curry that I have in England that is better thananything.
I just love it so much.
That's fantastic.
And, if you were a cartoon character, who would you be?
And why?
I would love to be Bugs Bunny.
Do you know who Bugs Bunny is?
(31:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
don't, I mean, is he on anymore?
I don't even know if this generation knows who Bugs Bunny is.
quite old, isn't he?
I think he's very old.
So this is aging me for sure, but I've always been a Bugs Bunny fan.
I just think he's so smart and so funny.
And he just always seems like he's five steps ahead of the bad guys.
(31:41):
So Bugs Bunny would be my favorite.
Yeah, that's great.
Thank you.
quick fire, tea or coffee?
coffee.
And chocolate or sweets?
Mm, sweets.
Okay.
cake or a piece of fruit?
(32:01):
Cake, for sure.
What kind of cake?
What's your best cake?
Lemon, probably.
Okay.
good.
Wonderful.
Now here's a good question for you.
What is the Holy Spirit doing in your life or what does he put on your heart at themoment?
(32:22):
You know, right now, I feel like he's teaching me, and I think this is a lifelong thing,Matt, to be honest.
But we're really leaning into beauty and the idea that beauty is everywhere we look if wehave eyes to see, and beauty always reveals Christ.
(32:45):
so where Jesus says, let him have ears to hear, let him have eyes to see, I am
That's my prayer that I would have eyes to see and ears to hear what the Holy Spirit isdoing, where He's revealing His glory everywhere throughout every day.
I want to be able to find Him in a leaf on the ground as well as in the face of ahomeless.
(33:08):
I want to be able to discover Him in the middle of the hardest, darkest situations.
I want...
It's just that.
And it's much more about communion with him than learning any kind of new thing, like newcraft or so, you know, I don't care so much about learning how to prophesy.
(33:32):
I just want to know him.
No, that's great.
That's fantastic.
And have you got anything coming up?
I always like to ask the authors I speak to, often once you've done, done a book,
you have something else possibly simmering away in the background.
Is there anything you can tell us about that you're working on or something coming upsoon?
(33:57):
We're actually working on another whole curriculum.
So along with the reframing the prophetic book, we have a whole reframing the propheticcurriculum that we've actually been writing that for several years now.
It's a 14 week full college level course curriculum covering the same topics that are inthe book.
And then you can jump into that journey.
(34:18):
But now we're working on building another curriculum, basically on what I just talkedabout, listening to God, listening to his voice, his abiding presence, his leading,
learning how to be more sensitive to the ways of the Holy Spirit, discovering the power ofbeauty everywhere we look.
(34:44):
that's gonna be my next book that I am...
currently working on.
That sounds great.
Yeah, I look forward to reading that one.
And where can people find you?
Are you online?
Where can they get hold of these curriculums you're talking about?
Where can they buy the book?
The book is on Amazon almost everywhere, I think.
(35:07):
So there's that.
It's in a few bookstores as well.
Online it's reframingtheprophetic .com.
So check us out there.
That's where you can get on an email list.
You'll be updated on when the new courses, we've got about three more courses we'reworking on that will be coming out soon that I'm very excited about.
(35:30):
Social media, we've got Re -Framing the Prophetic on Instagram and Facebook and that'sprobably your best bet.
That's great.
Thank you.
So just for those who are listening, if you want to find out more about Christian Westhoffor look at some of these
curriculum materials or be ready for the next book when it comes out or even in fact getthis book, Re -Framing the Prophetic and find out more about it.
(35:52):
I'm going to put a link to the Re -Framing the Prophetic website in the show notes of thisepisode.
So that makes it super easy for you to just click on that and you can get straight towhere you want to be.
So do go and have a look at the Re -Framing the Prophetic website.
Well, thank you, Christine.
Thank you so much for spending some time with me and
(36:14):
being part of this podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you, Matt.
It was a joy.
And thank you as well for listening to this episode of The Christian Book Blur.
Don't forget, this podcast comes out twice a month on the 1st and on the 15th.
So I'll be back really soon chatting to another fantastic Christian author about theirbooks, their life and their faith.
(36:37):
Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you soon.
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
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