September 15, 2024 • 45 mins
In this episode of Christian Book Blurb, host Matt McChlery interviews author Michael T. Gowen about his book 'Daniel Being Distinctive in Uncertain Times.' They discuss the relevance of the Book of Daniel in today's society, the importance of devotional Bible reading, and how to live authentically as a Christian in the workplace. Michael shares insights on purity, wisdom, and navigating crisis points, emphasizing the need for community and support. We also hear about Michael's love of theatre, eating with friends and eating 'moules et frites'.
Links
Help keep this podcast on the web by simply buying me a coffee https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattmcchlery
Sponsor an episode of this podcast Click for Advertising info
Visit Michael T Gowen's publisher malcolndown.co.uk
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Takeaways
- Daniel's faithfulness serves as an inspiration for modern Christians.
- Encouraging deeper Bible reading can strengthen one's relationship with God.
- The Book of Daniel is relevant to contemporary societal challenges.
- Authentic Christian living in the workplace requires wisdom and tact.
- Purity is essential for intimacy with God and spiritual effectiveness.
- Sharing burdens with trusted friends is crucial during crises.
- The power of storytelling can be a more effective witness than doctrine.
- Building strong foundations in faith prepares us for future challenges.
- Community support is vital for leaders in the church.
- Gowen emphasizes the importance of enjoying God's presence in nature.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Christian Book Blurb 00:30 Exploring the Book of Daniel 02:24 Encouraging Devotional Bible Reading 06:42 Daniel's Relevance in Modern Society 12:02 Living Authentically in the Workplace 15:51 The Importance of Purity 19:16 Wisdom and Tact in Spiritual Gifts 23:10 Navigating Crisis Points 31:17 Getting to Know Michael T. Gowen 39:27 Future Works and Conclusion
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery .com.
Hello and welcome to another edition of the Christian Book Blurb where we like toencourage you in your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian
(00:28):
authors and learn about their books.
their lives and their faith.
I am your host, Matt McChlery.
Thank you for clicking over here and joining us today on this episode.
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about being distinctive in uncertain timeswith the author, Michael T.
(00:48):
Gowen Hello, Michael.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hi, Matt.
Great to be here.
It's wonderful to have you with us.
I've been reading the first book in your series called Daniel Being Distinctive inUncertain Times and I'm really looking forward to digging into that with you a little bit
(01:09):
today.
Now this book shows your deep love and scholarship of the book of Daniel.
What has made the book of Daniel in the Bible such a passion for you personally?
I worked for 25 years in a large multinational government organization with lots oflanguages and lots of cultures.
(01:34):
And Daniel exactly reflects that about 2 ,500 years ago.
There are 127 languages in the Babylonian empire and somehow the thing held together.
He was working in a situation which was quite hostile to his faith.
which was akin to the situation that I was in, but he stayed faithful to God for 70 years.
(02:00):
So he's been a massive inspiration to me.
thought, you know what, if Daniel can stay faithful in that situation, maybe God can helpme to stay faithful in my situation.
So that's been my particular inspiration from Daniel.
That's really interesting.
I'm sure we'll explore a bit of that a bit later on.
(02:24):
Your introduction to the book tells us what type of book this is and how you hope someonewho's reading it might use it.
Can you just explain that for the benefit of our listeners?
Yeah, I came across a study by an American pastor who asked several hundred people twoquestions.
He asked them, how close do you feel to God and how much time do you spend devotionallyreading the Bible?
(02:49):
And he found a direct correlation between the two.
And I'm conscious talking to friends that many Christians, you you have five minutes withdaily bread or something like that at the beginning of the day and a short prayer, and
then woof, you're onto the treadmill of activity, which sucks us all in.
And I want to encourage people to perhaps spend a bit more time reading the Bible.
(03:17):
When I first came to know Jesus, I was just crazy about the Bible.
I have a picture of myself with my parents, Chris going home from Christmas holidays fromuniversity, my parents sitting watching the television and I was at the table reading the
Bible.
They thought I've got religious mania.
And since then really every day I've sought to spend maybe 30, 45 minutes in reading theBible.
(03:42):
And looking back on my life, I'd say that's been probably one of the anchors that's heldme close to God.
So what I wanna encourage people, I've kind of...
try to bring people into my dialogue with God that I have as I'm studying the book ofDaniel.
So not only can people say, that's really helpful or that's encouraging or that'schallenging, but also they think, hey, Mike has got that out of the book of Daniel.
(04:07):
You know what?
I think I could perhaps read the Bible for myself and get something out of it that wouldencourage me each day and challenge me each day.
So that's my objective really that people would be encouraged.
read the Bible devotionally and discover how they can get closer to God through it.
I think some people who read Christian devotional type books are used to the sort of theformulaic writing style of it, where there's sort of a Bible passage, a bit of a life
(04:38):
story, then a bit of an application and a prayer, usually all on one page, maybe a couple,but it's a short little injection and off you go.
Yours is a bit different as you were saying.
I'm still along a devotional theme, but I saw it almost as reading your journal as youwere reading Daniel.
(04:59):
I'm now kind of getting an insight into your thoughts and conversations with God andthings and what you've picked up from it by reading your journal of when you read Daniel.
yeah, an interesting, slightly different style of book, but
but really good.
And I love the fact that there's these little reflection questions dotted throughout it.
(05:22):
Can you explain a little bit about those?
Yeah, so I've divided the text into kind of bite -sized portions so that people don't needto sit down and read the whole book at one sitting or over a period of time, but they can
dip in and dip out of it.
Actually, to be fair, the reflection questions were my wife's idea, which is a great ideato have a good wife.
(05:46):
She's, as I say, I think in my second book, no, my first book it is, I dedicate to her,say she's my number one fan and my number one critic.
So she, at the end of each section, there are some reflection questions which are in thefirst person.
What do I think about this?
How does that affect me?
To encourage people actually to personally enter into Bible reading.
(06:09):
So Bible reading's not just some theological exercise or.
well, I've done that for today.
That might help me.
But actually that you I'm saying, how is this relevant to me today?
And I think that's one of the wonderful things I've discovered in the book of Daniel.
It was written 2500 years ago, but it's still amazingly relevant for today.
And speaking of its relevance for today, can you just explain a little bit of how youthink Daniel fits in with 21st century living in the West today as a Christian?
(06:42):
Well, for the last thousand years, Christians have basically ruled the roost in Westernsocieties.
The society has been built on Christian principles and for many centuries, the churchexercised a strong degree of political power as well.
That wasn't all good, but that's another issue.
(07:04):
Over the last 50 years, we've seen a radical transformation in society, which I describein my book.
And we Christians, very often now, we're the bad guys for the first time for a thousandyears.
We're the ones who are perceived as intolerant, bigoted, old fashioned, unwilling to adaptor whatever.
(07:26):
And this is a very unfamiliar position, but it was a position that would have been veryfamiliar to Daniel.
He had also to adapt, although for him it was a very dramatic adaptation.
He was brought up in Jerusalem.
surrounded by religion.
He probably went to one of the best religious schools because he was from one of the noblefamilies.
(07:48):
And suddenly, as a teenager, he was uprooted from that when the king of Babylon invadedJerusalem, taken off to Babylon, six weeks march across the desert into this unfamiliar
place.
No mountains, just sand, sand, sand, and strange customs, strange languages, strangereligions.
(08:08):
But somehow,
He was able to adapt to that, maintain his faith strong and also bear witness to his faithto the most powerful person in the world.
King Nebuchadnezzar and afterwards King Belshazzar and King Darius.
So that I find amazing.
(08:29):
Yes, there is, even though we are perceived as the bad guys, there is still a verypowerful role that we can play within society.
So that's, think the...
the encouragement that Daniel gives to me there.
That's great.
And I could see how the two fit together really well.
When you were just talking that reminded me of another interview I did recently.
(08:54):
If you're listening, you can catch this a couple of months back, so three or four episodespreviously to this one.
I was chatting to Stephen McAlpine, who is an author in Australia.
It was about a different book of his called Future Proof.
But one of the books he's written is called Being the Bad Guys.
I think even in Australia, even sort of on the other side of the world, as you say, thiscultural shift has happened.
(09:23):
And Christians are now finding themselves by holding true to biblical teaching andbiblical values, that all of a sudden, we're on the flip side of what's considered to be
good.
and right and everything else.
yeah, it's just, it's just interesting to note that it's not just something in the UKwhere we are.
(09:46):
It's, it's, it's, it's happening sort of on a global scale.
Well, when I say global, I think global West, I think, I don't, I don't know about you,but you have lots of multicultural experience yourself.
I'm, don't know if this perception is completely over the entire globe.
I don't know.
What do think?
No, it's, it's global West.
(10:07):
I mean, most parts of the world, religion is a subject for healthy conversation.
Even when I spent time with my job in Kabul in Afghanistan after the Americans invaded itafter 9 -11, the Muslims, course, very strong Muslims, they were very keen to talk about
(10:32):
religion, even in that context.
And I find that wherever I go in the world, it's really only in Western Europe thatreligion is almost a forbidden subject.
I mean, my father always said, never talk politics or religion because it just causesarguments.
And I think so many people hold to that view and it does hinder us in our witness.
(10:55):
And I think also as I speak about in my book, it causes particularly men I find to oftenhide their faith in their workplace.
And that's another inspiration of Daniel.
Daniel never hid his faith.
In my second book, which deals with Daniel chapter six, the lion's den, when they persuadethe king, they trick the king into making this edict that nobody must pray to any God
(11:21):
other than the king for the next 30 days.
Daniel doesn't go and have a secret prayer.
He throws his window open and prays out to Jerusalem so everybody can see him.
And again, this
openness to share his faith in a hostile situation, I think it is an inspiration to metoday.
And speaking of workplace and sort of this frontline Christianity type idea, how, in youropinion, and maybe drawing on some of Daniel's example, you've just given one there, but I
(11:55):
think how we pray or during the day might be slightly different to Daniel's day.
how do we go about living an authentic Christian life in the workplace, in the Pugnixsphere today, where one isn't feeling that you have to, I don't know, stand up in the
(12:18):
staff room on the table and start shouting that everyone's going to go to hell orwhatever, you know, how do we, how do we...
witness to people in the workplace in a way that's true and authentic and Christian, butin the same way attractive rather than putting people off.
(12:39):
I think we need to rediscover the power of story.
People are not really interested in theology so much, they might call it dogma.
Stories can't be contradicted.
recall, in my workplace,
did language classes and we had a Spanish class and we had the opportunity to do a 10minute presentation in Spanish on any subject.
(13:06):
So I just gave my testimony of how I became a Christian for 10 minutes and people listenedand there were different reactions.
Some said, that's wonderful.
Some said, yes.
Others rather sadly said, that's so wonderful but I could never have that faith.
So I think just in the workplace, you you go in on a Monday,
(13:28):
I went to church, you know, we, saw somebody prayed for a, with a really bad leg and theleg got healed, you know, things like that.
People might poo poo it, but you can't contradict a story.
And also it's authentically you, it's your story and it's not directly proselytizing,which of course is the big thing that many employers are so, so nervous about.
(13:54):
And let's.
Let's face it, Jesus, what did he do?
He told a lot of stories, didn't he?
And I think sometimes we've become too, too, emphasized on, on, on spreading doctrine.
I actually hear a lot of sermons, don't we in church?
We hear a lot of sermons and not so many stories.
(14:15):
So then we think we've got to go out and preach sermons.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think it helps really to tell people, I mean, to tell people that they're sinnersand they need to repent.
It's true, but it wasn't Jesus' message.
Jesus was preaching the kingdom of God.
I think the challenge, and I mention this in my book, the challenge to us today is, if wego out there and tell people, you are sinners and you need to repent, they may reject
(14:40):
that, but deep down, most people know they can't even live up to their own standards.
If we go and say to them, as Jesus did, the kingdom of God is near, you need to dosomething about it and repent.
people will go, where is this kingdom of God?
And that's where the challenge comes.
Because Jesus could say, well, as when they sent the people from John the Baptist to say,are you really the one who's gonna come or is there someone else?
(15:04):
He said, well, look, what's happening around you?
The blind are seeing, the deaf are hearing, the lame are walking, the lepers are cleansed,the dead are raised.
They were the evidences.
But if we tell people the kingdom of God is near, you need to do something about it,they'll go, where is this kingdom of God?
What's the evidence of it?
My, that's a challenge to me.
to show what evidence there is of the kingdom of God in my life and in the life of myChristian community.
(15:27):
And that's something I'm striving to see more evident.
Really helpful.
Thank you, Michael.
In chapter three of your book, Daniel Being Distinctive in Uncertain Times, you talk aboutpurity and how this is a subject we tend to avoid speaking about today.
So why is purity so important?
(15:51):
as a Christian and I notice well that everyone's minds might just jump straight to sexualpurity that's part of it but you talk about purity much more widely than just that so so
can you tell us more?
think what prompted this somebody gave me the collected works of Smith Wigglesworth whowas a very sort of a pioneer healing evangelist of the first half of the 20th century
(16:17):
quite a controversial character be he
He had some amazing miracles and healings in his life.
But as I read this book, what really struck me was not his miracles, but his ardent desirefor purity and holiness.
And it came to me that if we want to see the power of God flowing through us, if we dirtyinside, then that power flows out dirty.
(16:45):
It's rather like putting clean water through a dirty pipe.
So,
If I wanna see the power of God flowing through me effectively, I need to get cleaned upinside.
I need a pure life.
But it's also about intimacy with God.
We can only have, I think the level of intimacy that our own purity allows in the sensethat God is totally holy.
(17:11):
Amazingly, He accepts us when we are filthy and dirty.
He forgives us.
But a bit like we say in the vineyard church where I go, we say, come as you are, butdon't stay as you are.
And I think that's exactly how God wants us to be.
He wants us to come to him as we are, he accepts us as we are, but then he doesn't want usto stay as we are.
(17:33):
He wants us to be pure and holy.
I think this is why perhaps some Christians don't feel, I don't say it's all Christians,some Christians may...
feel that God is not close to them, because there's something there that's impure.
And often the impure thing, we want to hide from God.
We want to pretend it's not there.
(17:54):
It's like the room in our house that nobody ever goes in, because we, well, if we go inthere, we don't know what we'll find in there.
There's all sorts of junk in there.
We close it off to God and we pretend to him and to other people that things are allright, but they're not really.
This, I guess the therapists call it our shadow, young, I think it was young, called itour shadow side.
(18:17):
And one of the things I've found what's been really liberating for me is to open my shadowside to God.
Those parts that I don't like about me, those parts that I don't really want other peopleto know about me, but to open that to God, to find that I'm still completely accepted even
though he knows that, and then to allow him to begin to do something about it.
(18:40):
That's why I think I've found purity to be so important.
And what is purity?
I think that you can look at it from the other side negatively.
If you look at the works of the flesh in Galatians five, they're the things to avoid.
And they're the things that if you avoid them, you'll have purity and then positively thefruit of the spirit, which follows on from it.
(19:04):
That's how I see purity.
That's how I think the Bible sees purity.
Chapter five, and one of the topics you explore is wisdom and tact.
And you say that
When we exercise spiritual gifts, we need to do so with both wisdom and tact.
Can you explain a bit more about what you were meaning here?
(19:25):
Yeah, I've seen people with powerful prophetic ministries where that ministry has beenblunted because of a lack of wisdom and tact.
For example, if I go to speak in a church where the people don't know me very well and Ihave a prophetic word for somebody,
I've got to form a relational bridge with that person if that person's going to accept theUnless the word is so powerful, that it's so amazing that they're bowled over by it, the
(19:53):
sort of words of knowledge that John Wimber got.
But I don't have that gift.
I do have a certain prophetic gift, but I'm certainly not what I'd call a first divisionprophet by any means.
So if I have a word for somebody and I don't know them, I've got to form a relationalbridge with them.
If I just go up to them and say, I think God says this, this, and this, they're going tolook at me go, who are you?
(20:14):
What are you about?
So I think the way we exercise our gifts, whether it's word of knowledge, whether it'shealing, whether it's a prophecy, whether it's a word of encouragement, whether it's a
challenge or whatever, it depends on the relationship.
(20:36):
And the relationship is built up through wisdom and tact.
And particularly if we've got something that we feel God's saying to somebody whichmight...
be difficult for them, then we need tact on how to say that.
I'm reminded of a John Wimber story.
He was on a plane and he sat next to this man.
(20:58):
And he saw, I mean, he had, he saw things that I've never even seen.
He saw the word adulterer across the man's forehead.
And he goes, what do do about that?
So the lack of tact would go, excuse me, are you involved in adultery?
But the guy would close up.
He said, God, what do do about that?
And then he saw the word changed and he saw a woman's name, let's say Susan for want ofwhatever.
(21:23):
And then he said to the man, excuse me, does the name Susan mean anything to you?
Now that was, and the guy, that just broke him.
And the guy opened up, confessed, I think probably John Wimber led him to faith in Christon the airplane, because he did that sort of thing.
Now that I think is a very good example of the sort of tact.
I think
Particularly if we have a difficult thing to say to somebody, sometimes I think, becausewe think we're right, we can blunder in and we can just then actually destroy the impact
(21:55):
of the message that God has given to us.
Whenever God gives us anything, I think it's not just what we say, but how we say it.
And we need to ask God.
And there's that great scripture that says, if anybody lacks wisdom, letting them ask ofGod who gives to all generously.
So I'm asking God for wisdom.
many times a day because I think I'm very conscious of lacking it.
(22:17):
And I think the wisdom, and you see that with Daniel.
When the king ordered all the wise men of Babylon to be executed, which would includeDaniel and his friends, he spoke to the commander of the guard in such a way that the
commander actually shared with him what it was all about.
(22:40):
He used wisdom and tact.
to find out the true situation and then he was able to respond to it.
And throughout his book, throughout the book of Daniel, you see Daniel interacting withkings in a very wise and very tactful way.
And that's been a great example to me that if God's given me a gift, the gift will be moreeffective if I use it with wisdom intact.
(23:04):
I'm just looking through all my questions here and there's so much we could talk aboutthat you've packed into.
your book.
This indeed is the first book of a series that you've written on the book of Daniel.
So there is a lot to dive into there.
But just before we have a little break, one question that I really want to explore alittle bit is about crisis.
(23:30):
Crisis points, because I know in my life there have been many a crisis, some more seriousthan others.
I'm sure in the lives of our listeners as well, we've hit crisis points before and indeedwe can see in the book of Daniel that he indeed had to encounter and endure and navigate
(23:54):
several crisis moments in his life.
So what can we learn from Daniel's example when he hit a crisis point in life?
How did he respond and then likewise, how should we respond when we encounter crisis?
I think the most significant crisis which Daniel experienced was the threat of beingexecuted.
(24:18):
That's a pretty severe crisis which probably it's pretty bad.
Yeah, not many of our listeners have faced and What did he do?
And now the the standard sort of response might be well you when you face that you mustimmediately get down on your knees and pray and you must ask God
But very interestingly, the first thing he did, he went to his close friends and sharedthe situation with them.
(24:42):
And I think that's a very significant example for me that we can't do it on our own.
I think that the individualism of our Western societies has often crept into ourChristianity.
And it's reinforced by the Protestant doctrine of the individual priesthood of allbelievers.
which sadly has sometimes become the individual rightness of all believers, which is sadand then that destroys relationship.
(25:10):
So I think we all need people who we can turn to in a crisis.
It's not that we need to mobilize prayer all over the world.
I get sometimes prayer requests to pray for somebody's...
auntie's first cousin's husband or so somebody have no idea who they are.
(25:32):
But in desperation, people have sent out this wide ranging prayer request.
And I understand the motivation for it.
But I don't think it's about quantity of prayer.
There's not a there's not a factor like if if you had twice as much prayer, then what youwant is twice as likely to come about it.
Some tips some cosmic scale somewhere and then all of a sudden it's granted or whatever.
(25:56):
Yeah, exactly.
But I do think it's really important that we share together with trusted people.
And, you know, Jesus doesn't, says, where two or three are gathered together, there am Iin the midst of them.
I mean, he's in us all the time, but there is a special dynamic when people agree togetherand come together for a common purpose or to face a common crisis.
(26:21):
And, you know, we even say, don't we, in every dialogue, if a burden shared is a burdenlightened.
just often in a crisis situation, sharing the situation with our friends before you evenpray can sometimes give us a better sense of perspective.
I think the problem when we try and face situations on our own, things go round and roundin our head and it's a bit like a tractor going round a muddy field.
(26:45):
The rut just gets deeper and deeper and deeper until the tractor suddenly comes to agrinding halt.
And I think that often happens with us in our thought life, but somebody else coming intothat situation
brings us new perspectives.
So that I think is the crucial thing that I learned from the book of Daniel.
Of course, having got his friends together, he says, right, together, we need to fast andwe need to pray and we need to seek God.
(27:12):
And there's also no sense of panic.
think the, you know, it's like Corporal Jones on dad's army, don't panic, don't panic,don't panic.
That's often a reaction in a crisis.
But I think, you know, if we panic,
it blocks out our communication with God and I think it hinders us from thinking morerationally.
(27:36):
So I think being together, I think helps us with other people, helps us not to panic inthe crisis situation and to see it for what it is and to help us to get through it.
And there's a scripture that says in Galatians 6, bear one another's burdens.
and so fulfill the law of Christ.
(27:57):
I think that's a wonderful thing to do in a Christian community.
And I think that, well, I don't think, I know that this applies to people in leadershippositions as well, who might find it really difficult to perhaps share a burden or a
crisis moment because I'm the leader, I'm supposed to have it all together, I'm supposedto have all the answers.
(28:25):
But actually showing some vulnerability, showing that actually even the leader needs torely on others to live a Christian life, to live the way that God has designed things to
be, is really powerful and will actually free up others who you're trying to lead to dothe same rather than trying to go it alone.
(28:49):
think that's also something to bear in mind with what you've said there.
which is great.
Thank you.
In my book, I mentioned that they did a survey of, I think it was American pastors and thevast majority of American pastors had nobody who they would call a close friend.
And it's tragic.
And I suspect this may be one of the reasons why we've seen leaders fall into sexual sin,into financial sin, because there's no, the nurturing which they're receiving,
(29:21):
from their congregation is the nurturing of their false persona.
So the real them is not being nurtured.
Even though people say, you're a wonderful preacher, you're a great pastor, you'remarvelous, it's going onto the superficial them.
The real them is unnourished.
And so they look for it consciously or subconsciously in illegitimate directions.
(29:44):
It's very sad.
mean, one of my Anglican vicar friends told me at a vicar factory, they were told,
not to form friendships with any member of the congregation.
And I think that's tragic.
And against what the whole Christian message, Jesus had 12 disciples around him all thetime.
(30:06):
He had three very special ones.
Paul never did anything on his own.
He was either with Silas or with Timothy or with Barnabas.
And we can't do it on our own.
When I was in
leadership of my church in Brussels, we always had a team.
And team leadership is, well, it's so much more fun to do something with other people, butalso it protects you, it guards you.
(30:32):
it breaks down this whole kind of celebrity mentality that creeps into the church as well.
Who's the main person?
Who's the celebrity here that we all need to kind of rally around?
Well, no, we're in it together.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, that's great.
Well, we'll be back speaking more with Michael T.
(30:53):
Gowen about his life and his faith after these messages.
So do join us in a few moments.
(31:17):
So go on, buy me a coffee today and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian booksand authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blurb.
We are speaking with the author Michael T.
Gowen and we have been chatting about his book Daniel Being Distinctive in UncertainTimes.
(31:38):
Now before the break, Michael, we talked quite a lot about your book and Daniel and how itapplies to life today, which has been fascinating and really useful.
And so if that bit of the conversation interested you and you've been listening, do go andcheck out
book Daniel Being Distinctive in Uncertain Times because there is a whole lot more inthere where this came from so do go and check that out.
(32:05):
But at this point Daniel we like to get to know the author a little bit better.
You've given a few hints about ministry work and sort of life and being in Afghanistan andthings like that so
Do you still have a job?
Do you still travel to exotic places of the world or are you retired now?
(32:28):
Where are you at?
I have retired from paid employment.
I've been retired 10 years now.
I was able to take early retirement, which was a blessing.
I still keep myself very busy, but I now don't do anything in a hurry.
That's the big difference.
That's what I tell people.
(32:48):
And I do have a...
a choice as to whether I take things on or not.
Not traveling to so many exotic or dangerous places of the world as I was before, but I'minvolved.
I'm the European missions coordinator for Vineyard UK and Ireland.
So I'm involved in trying to, which is something very close to my heart, having lived inBelgium for 25 years, I'm involved in encouraging UK Christians to get involved in.
(33:18):
countries on the continent of Europe, because many of those countries, particularly in theSouth, know, Portugal, Spain, Italy, the proportion of genuine Christians is lower than in
say traditional mission fields, you know, like India or somewhere like that.
(33:38):
People just don't realize how good a heritage we've got in this country.
I know we've wasted much of our heritage.
I know that, you know,
things have gone downhill morally and spiritually in this country, but we're still streetsahead of most of the countries on the continent.
I lived in Belgium for 25 years.
The Spirit of God has never moved powerfully in the country of Belgium.
(34:01):
We're waiting for it.
mean, it'll happen in due course, but the heritage there is so different from here.
And in life there is just harder spiritually.
One of my friends, his daughter,
went to Cambridge University.
And at the end of the first term, she came back and she said, Mike, she said, you didn'ttell me how much easier life was in England, how much easier is to be a Christian.
(34:26):
The spiritual atmosphere is just so different.
And I thought, yeah, it is.
So that's, I do travel, I do travel through Europe.
But yeah, not, not quite so many exotic places.
Basically, I felt, well, I do go to Colombia as well, actually, regularly, and encourageChristians.
who are being persecuted there because one of my one of my also interests and concerns andburdens is to support brothers and sisters who are being persecuted.
(34:55):
And we've certainly supported a number of organizations who are involved there for many,many years.
And I, I do what practically I can.
Hmm.
that's fascinating.
And really interesting what you say about the spiritual sort of atmosphere, because Ithink sometimes the perception we have in the UK is, things
things are things are getting bad, things aren't great.
(35:16):
And yeah, there is an element of truth to it.
But we haven't had that external experience of going elsewhere to see what it's like inother places.
So that's very interesting.
Do you have any favorite things to eat seeing as you have been all over the world andstill travel to various places?
(35:36):
What's your most favorite thing to eat?
Is it like a traditional British roast when you get home or is it something more, moreexotic?
I always like a traditional British roast, but I think I'd go for, I'd go for Belgium,some Belgian stuff.
Moulfrites, which is mussels and chips.
yes, that's lovely.
They, the Belgians, apparently the French are the biggest muscle producers in Europe andthe Belgians take 80 % of their muscles.
(36:00):
The Belgians are absolutely crazy about mussels and they get the best.
So yeah, I'm, I'm very, very keen on Moulfrites and.
that's something providing it's the season.
That's something I always go for as soon as I go back to Belgium.
Not the chocolate then?
well, the chocolate, that goes without saying.
And of course the beer.
I always come, we come back always with a boot full of beer.
(36:24):
have, are over 400 beers in Belgium and they're all good.
that's wonderful.
And do you have any hobbies or things you like to do for fun?
Yeah, we, we,
We love to go to the theater.
We love to eat with friends.
I love to be with my children and grandchildren.
(36:44):
And once a week, I don't know whether you'd call it a hobby, but I've taken to eitherwalking 10 to 15 miles or biking 40 to 60 miles.
And it's like a Sabbath.
All I just enjoy being with God in his world.
I don't make a lot of intercessory requests.
(37:07):
I'm not expecting any great revelation.
I just enjoy being with him, expressing my love to him, receiving love from him in hisbeautiful world.
And I found that this is something I've newly discovered.
My wife's quite into contemplative theology and she has taught me just to sit and be withGod.
(37:28):
I say it's only over last 10 years that I've really discovered that because I'messentially, I think I'm an activist by nature.
I like to be doing.
But it's been a revelation to me just to sit and be with God or to be in the, just to walkor bike and be with God in the countryside.
It's just the most wonderful thing.
So yeah, there's some of the things I like doing.
(37:50):
and I like going and watching my football team, Northampton town.
Yes.
Third division, but I'm a faith, I'm a faithful supporter.
Wonderful.
Hopefully your prayers will carry them into the next division next year.
Well, if they stay in this division, I'll be very happy.
good.
Okay.
(38:11):
If you were a cartoon character, who would you be and why?
Well, living in Belgium, I'd have to go for Tintin, who the French call Tata.
He travels all over the world.
He always gets his man in the end, but he's somehow, somehow quirky.
And he has some...
unusual friends.
So I'm not sure I exactly liked Tintin, but I certainly would aspire to be like him.
(38:35):
That's great.
Thank you.
Great answer.
So quick fire questions.
Tea or coffee?
Chocolate or sweets?
Chocolate.
Cake or fruit?
Fruit.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Have you got any family and what does that look like for Yeah, I've got three adultchildren and I've got seven grandchildren aged between 10 and 19.
(38:57):
So there's 15 of us in total with my wife and my children's partners.
And we recently had a long weekend on the Algarve in Portugal to celebrate our goldenwedding anniversary.
Congratulations.
So that was a very wonderful time to all be together.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
(39:17):
Now I've mentioned previously that the book we spoke about today, Daniel Being Distinctivein Uncertain Times is the first of
a series.
So what can you tell us about the rest of the series and if you're working on anythingelse at the moment?
So Daniel, Daniel being distinctive deals with the first three chapters of the book ofDaniel, where he's basically him and his friends are adapting to life in Babylon and
(39:45):
making a stand for what is what is right.
The second second book was published last year, it's called Daniel being faithful inuncertain times.
That deals with Daniel chapter four to six, when he was more in middle and old age, and itexamines really how we can stay faithful to God throughout our life.
(40:07):
I'm very struck looking at the kings of Israel, how many of them started well and then inmid -life, they kind of just grew cold and deviated from the path.
Probably Solomon is the most traumatic example.
And I've asked God, God, I don't just want to start well, I want to finish well as well.
(40:29):
And you might say, well, I'm only perhaps 25 years old.
I don't read a book about being faithful, but I think you do because what Daniel beingfaithful in uncertain times is about is how we lay foundations in our life that will stand
us in good stead for the future.
It's a bit like Jesus talked about the house built on the rock.
(40:50):
You we lay good foundations.
The storm isn't there yet.
But we talked about crisis earlier.
We prepare for the crisis when there is no crisis by laying good foundations.
I think my second book really helps us to know how we can lay those foundations.
And then are you working on the third?
(41:11):
Because you haven't quite covered the whole book of Daniel yet.
No, I have a third book in process dealing with all the prophetic writings of Daniel.
This
has been incredibly difficult to write.
There are many and varied opinions on Daniel's chapters seven to 12.
And I've had many, many rewrites and many false starts, but I've come to the position tosay, can I, what do those chapters have to say to this generation that will help encourage
(41:46):
and prepare us for the future?
So I'm now halfway through chapter 11.
so I've got one more chapter after that for my first draft.
I think I'm gonna have to substantially rewrite the first draft because as I've got on inmy writing of the book, I've gained fresh insights.
(42:11):
But I'm hoping, my hope is that I can publish that third volume next year.
That's all if we look forward to reading that one.
and where can people buy the books?
Can people find you on social media and all that sort of thing?
Yeah.
The obvious place is Amazon.
they're always on Amazon.
They're on sites like Eden and foils and places like that.
(42:35):
I actually don't do social media.
I'm, I don't trust Mark Zuckerberg and I'm shocked at, particularly like with these, the,the riots that are going on or, and that we've seen in recent months.
Social media has not played a responsible role.
The people who run social media.
(42:56):
I feel that they're making a lot of money out of people, but they're not fulfilling theirrole.
They're not fulfilling their role, for example, to take down fraudulent posts or posts ofitems that are unsafe, fake news.
I think there's a whole debate around that.
I'm quite disturbed about social media.
And when I look at a film like The Social Dilemma, which you've probably seen,
(43:20):
And the guy who was a senior Facebook executive at the end says, I don't allow my childrenon social media.
I'm thinking, gosh, you know, so I, I don't criticize people to do social media.
That's great.
That's a personal decision, but that's, that's the personal decision I've taken.
So where can people find you?
have a website?
No, I don't know.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
(43:40):
you can find me by email.
Gowen dot writing at outlook .com.
That's a, I'm really old fashioned.
I am sorry.
I didn't grow up in the digital generation.
So when I get stuck on anything, I ask my grandchildren.
So I see that your books are published by Malcolm Down Publishing.
(44:04):
So I guess if people want to find out more about you and your books, you'll have a littleprofile on the Malcolm Down website and people can email Malcolm Down and
get put in touch that way and all that kind of thing.
If people want to get in touch, they can go through your publisher.
Or they can get in touch with me directly through my email.
I'm very, very happy.
Or they can do that.
Yeah.
(44:24):
That's great.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much, Michael, for joining us today.
It's been great chatting with you about your book and it's been a pleasure having you.
Thank you, Matt.
It's been great chatting to you as well.
And God bless you as you continue the Christian Book Blurb.
Thank you and thank you as well for listening to this episode of Christian Book BlurbDon't forget an episode comes out twice a month on the 1st and on the 15th so it won't be
(44:53):
long before another episode is coming your way.
So do join us again then for another episode of the Christian Book Blurb where I'll bespeaking with another Christian author about their books, their life and their faith.
Thank you for listening.
See you soon.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
(45:15):
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery .com.
Hello and welcome to another edition of the Christian Book Blurb where we like toencourage you in your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian
(00:28):
authors and learn about their books.
their lives and their faith.
I am your host, Matt McChlery.
Thank you for clicking over here and joining us today on this episode.
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about being distinctive in uncertain timeswith the author, Michael T.
(00:48):
Gowen Hello, Michael.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hi, Matt.
Great to be here.
It's wonderful to have you with us.
I've been reading the first book in your series called Daniel Being Distinctive inUncertain Times and I'm really looking forward to digging into that with you a little bit
(01:09):
today.
Now this book shows your deep love and scholarship of the book of Daniel.
What has made the book of Daniel in the Bible such a passion for you personally?
I worked for 25 years in a large multinational government organization with lots oflanguages and lots of cultures.
(01:34):
And Daniel exactly reflects that about 2 ,500 years ago.
There are 127 languages in the Babylonian empire and somehow the thing held together.
He was working in a situation which was quite hostile to his faith.
which was akin to the situation that I was in, but he stayed faithful to God for 70 years.
(02:00):
So he's been a massive inspiration to me.
thought, you know what, if Daniel can stay faithful in that situation, maybe God can helpme to stay faithful in my situation.
So that's been my particular inspiration from Daniel.
That's really interesting.
I'm sure we'll explore a bit of that a bit later on.
(02:24):
Your introduction to the book tells us what type of book this is and how you hope someonewho's reading it might use it.
Can you just explain that for the benefit of our listeners?
Yeah, I came across a study by an American pastor who asked several hundred people twoquestions.
He asked them, how close do you feel to God and how much time do you spend devotionallyreading the Bible?
(02:49):
And he found a direct correlation between the two.
And I'm conscious talking to friends that many Christians, you you have five minutes withdaily bread or something like that at the beginning of the day and a short prayer, and
then woof, you're onto the treadmill of activity, which sucks us all in.
And I want to encourage people to perhaps spend a bit more time reading the Bible.
(03:17):
When I first came to know Jesus, I was just crazy about the Bible.
I have a picture of myself with my parents, Chris going home from Christmas holidays fromuniversity, my parents sitting watching the television and I was at the table reading the
Bible.
They thought I've got religious mania.
And since then really every day I've sought to spend maybe 30, 45 minutes in reading theBible.
(03:42):
And looking back on my life, I'd say that's been probably one of the anchors that's heldme close to God.
So what I wanna encourage people, I've kind of...
try to bring people into my dialogue with God that I have as I'm studying the book ofDaniel.
So not only can people say, that's really helpful or that's encouraging or that'schallenging, but also they think, hey, Mike has got that out of the book of Daniel.
(04:07):
You know what?
I think I could perhaps read the Bible for myself and get something out of it that wouldencourage me each day and challenge me each day.
So that's my objective really that people would be encouraged.
read the Bible devotionally and discover how they can get closer to God through it.
I think some people who read Christian devotional type books are used to the sort of theformulaic writing style of it, where there's sort of a Bible passage, a bit of a life
(04:38):
story, then a bit of an application and a prayer, usually all on one page, maybe a couple,but it's a short little injection and off you go.
Yours is a bit different as you were saying.
I'm still along a devotional theme, but I saw it almost as reading your journal as youwere reading Daniel.
(04:59):
I'm now kind of getting an insight into your thoughts and conversations with God andthings and what you've picked up from it by reading your journal of when you read Daniel.
yeah, an interesting, slightly different style of book, but
but really good.
And I love the fact that there's these little reflection questions dotted throughout it.
(05:22):
Can you explain a little bit about those?
Yeah, so I've divided the text into kind of bite -sized portions so that people don't needto sit down and read the whole book at one sitting or over a period of time, but they can
dip in and dip out of it.
Actually, to be fair, the reflection questions were my wife's idea, which is a great ideato have a good wife.
(05:46):
She's, as I say, I think in my second book, no, my first book it is, I dedicate to her,say she's my number one fan and my number one critic.
So she, at the end of each section, there are some reflection questions which are in thefirst person.
What do I think about this?
How does that affect me?
To encourage people actually to personally enter into Bible reading.
(06:09):
So Bible reading's not just some theological exercise or.
well, I've done that for today.
That might help me.
But actually that you I'm saying, how is this relevant to me today?
And I think that's one of the wonderful things I've discovered in the book of Daniel.
It was written 2500 years ago, but it's still amazingly relevant for today.
And speaking of its relevance for today, can you just explain a little bit of how youthink Daniel fits in with 21st century living in the West today as a Christian?
(06:42):
Well, for the last thousand years, Christians have basically ruled the roost in Westernsocieties.
The society has been built on Christian principles and for many centuries, the churchexercised a strong degree of political power as well.
That wasn't all good, but that's another issue.
(07:04):
Over the last 50 years, we've seen a radical transformation in society, which I describein my book.
And we Christians, very often now, we're the bad guys for the first time for a thousandyears.
We're the ones who are perceived as intolerant, bigoted, old fashioned, unwilling to adaptor whatever.
(07:26):
And this is a very unfamiliar position, but it was a position that would have been veryfamiliar to Daniel.
He had also to adapt, although for him it was a very dramatic adaptation.
He was brought up in Jerusalem.
surrounded by religion.
He probably went to one of the best religious schools because he was from one of the noblefamilies.
(07:48):
And suddenly, as a teenager, he was uprooted from that when the king of Babylon invadedJerusalem, taken off to Babylon, six weeks march across the desert into this unfamiliar
place.
No mountains, just sand, sand, sand, and strange customs, strange languages, strangereligions.
(08:08):
But somehow,
He was able to adapt to that, maintain his faith strong and also bear witness to his faithto the most powerful person in the world.
King Nebuchadnezzar and afterwards King Belshazzar and King Darius.
So that I find amazing.
(08:29):
Yes, there is, even though we are perceived as the bad guys, there is still a verypowerful role that we can play within society.
So that's, think the...
the encouragement that Daniel gives to me there.
That's great.
And I could see how the two fit together really well.
When you were just talking that reminded me of another interview I did recently.
(08:54):
If you're listening, you can catch this a couple of months back, so three or four episodespreviously to this one.
I was chatting to Stephen McAlpine, who is an author in Australia.
It was about a different book of his called Future Proof.
But one of the books he's written is called Being the Bad Guys.
I think even in Australia, even sort of on the other side of the world, as you say, thiscultural shift has happened.
(09:23):
And Christians are now finding themselves by holding true to biblical teaching andbiblical values, that all of a sudden, we're on the flip side of what's considered to be
good.
and right and everything else.
yeah, it's just, it's just interesting to note that it's not just something in the UKwhere we are.
(09:46):
It's, it's, it's, it's happening sort of on a global scale.
Well, when I say global, I think global West, I think, I don't, I don't know about you,but you have lots of multicultural experience yourself.
I'm, don't know if this perception is completely over the entire globe.
I don't know.
What do think?
No, it's, it's global West.
(10:07):
I mean, most parts of the world, religion is a subject for healthy conversation.
Even when I spent time with my job in Kabul in Afghanistan after the Americans invaded itafter 9 -11, the Muslims, course, very strong Muslims, they were very keen to talk about
(10:32):
religion, even in that context.
And I find that wherever I go in the world, it's really only in Western Europe thatreligion is almost a forbidden subject.
I mean, my father always said, never talk politics or religion because it just causesarguments.
And I think so many people hold to that view and it does hinder us in our witness.
(10:55):
And I think also as I speak about in my book, it causes particularly men I find to oftenhide their faith in their workplace.
And that's another inspiration of Daniel.
Daniel never hid his faith.
In my second book, which deals with Daniel chapter six, the lion's den, when they persuadethe king, they trick the king into making this edict that nobody must pray to any God
(11:21):
other than the king for the next 30 days.
Daniel doesn't go and have a secret prayer.
He throws his window open and prays out to Jerusalem so everybody can see him.
And again, this
openness to share his faith in a hostile situation, I think it is an inspiration to metoday.
And speaking of workplace and sort of this frontline Christianity type idea, how, in youropinion, and maybe drawing on some of Daniel's example, you've just given one there, but I
(11:55):
think how we pray or during the day might be slightly different to Daniel's day.
how do we go about living an authentic Christian life in the workplace, in the Pugnixsphere today, where one isn't feeling that you have to, I don't know, stand up in the
(12:18):
staff room on the table and start shouting that everyone's going to go to hell orwhatever, you know, how do we, how do we...
witness to people in the workplace in a way that's true and authentic and Christian, butin the same way attractive rather than putting people off.
(12:39):
I think we need to rediscover the power of story.
People are not really interested in theology so much, they might call it dogma.
Stories can't be contradicted.
recall, in my workplace,
did language classes and we had a Spanish class and we had the opportunity to do a 10minute presentation in Spanish on any subject.
(13:06):
So I just gave my testimony of how I became a Christian for 10 minutes and people listenedand there were different reactions.
Some said, that's wonderful.
Some said, yes.
Others rather sadly said, that's so wonderful but I could never have that faith.
So I think just in the workplace, you you go in on a Monday,
(13:28):
I went to church, you know, we, saw somebody prayed for a, with a really bad leg and theleg got healed, you know, things like that.
People might poo poo it, but you can't contradict a story.
And also it's authentically you, it's your story and it's not directly proselytizing,which of course is the big thing that many employers are so, so nervous about.
(13:54):
And let's.
Let's face it, Jesus, what did he do?
He told a lot of stories, didn't he?
And I think sometimes we've become too, too, emphasized on, on, on spreading doctrine.
I actually hear a lot of sermons, don't we in church?
We hear a lot of sermons and not so many stories.
(14:15):
So then we think we've got to go out and preach sermons.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think it helps really to tell people, I mean, to tell people that they're sinnersand they need to repent.
It's true, but it wasn't Jesus' message.
Jesus was preaching the kingdom of God.
I think the challenge, and I mention this in my book, the challenge to us today is, if wego out there and tell people, you are sinners and you need to repent, they may reject
(14:40):
that, but deep down, most people know they can't even live up to their own standards.
If we go and say to them, as Jesus did, the kingdom of God is near, you need to dosomething about it and repent.
people will go, where is this kingdom of God?
And that's where the challenge comes.
Because Jesus could say, well, as when they sent the people from John the Baptist to say,are you really the one who's gonna come or is there someone else?
(15:04):
He said, well, look, what's happening around you?
The blind are seeing, the deaf are hearing, the lame are walking, the lepers are cleansed,the dead are raised.
They were the evidences.
But if we tell people the kingdom of God is near, you need to do something about it,they'll go, where is this kingdom of God?
What's the evidence of it?
My, that's a challenge to me.
to show what evidence there is of the kingdom of God in my life and in the life of myChristian community.
(15:27):
And that's something I'm striving to see more evident.
Really helpful.
Thank you, Michael.
In chapter three of your book, Daniel Being Distinctive in Uncertain Times, you talk aboutpurity and how this is a subject we tend to avoid speaking about today.
So why is purity so important?
(15:51):
as a Christian and I notice well that everyone's minds might just jump straight to sexualpurity that's part of it but you talk about purity much more widely than just that so so
can you tell us more?
think what prompted this somebody gave me the collected works of Smith Wigglesworth whowas a very sort of a pioneer healing evangelist of the first half of the 20th century
(16:17):
quite a controversial character be he
He had some amazing miracles and healings in his life.
But as I read this book, what really struck me was not his miracles, but his ardent desirefor purity and holiness.
And it came to me that if we want to see the power of God flowing through us, if we dirtyinside, then that power flows out dirty.
(16:45):
It's rather like putting clean water through a dirty pipe.
So,
If I wanna see the power of God flowing through me effectively, I need to get cleaned upinside.
I need a pure life.
But it's also about intimacy with God.
We can only have, I think the level of intimacy that our own purity allows in the sensethat God is totally holy.
(17:11):
Amazingly, He accepts us when we are filthy and dirty.
He forgives us.
But a bit like we say in the vineyard church where I go, we say, come as you are, butdon't stay as you are.
And I think that's exactly how God wants us to be.
He wants us to come to him as we are, he accepts us as we are, but then he doesn't want usto stay as we are.
(17:33):
He wants us to be pure and holy.
I think this is why perhaps some Christians don't feel, I don't say it's all Christians,some Christians may...
feel that God is not close to them, because there's something there that's impure.
And often the impure thing, we want to hide from God.
We want to pretend it's not there.
(17:54):
It's like the room in our house that nobody ever goes in, because we, well, if we go inthere, we don't know what we'll find in there.
There's all sorts of junk in there.
We close it off to God and we pretend to him and to other people that things are allright, but they're not really.
This, I guess the therapists call it our shadow, young, I think it was young, called itour shadow side.
(18:17):
And one of the things I've found what's been really liberating for me is to open my shadowside to God.
Those parts that I don't like about me, those parts that I don't really want other peopleto know about me, but to open that to God, to find that I'm still completely accepted even
though he knows that, and then to allow him to begin to do something about it.
(18:40):
That's why I think I've found purity to be so important.
And what is purity?
I think that you can look at it from the other side negatively.
If you look at the works of the flesh in Galatians five, they're the things to avoid.
And they're the things that if you avoid them, you'll have purity and then positively thefruit of the spirit, which follows on from it.
(19:04):
That's how I see purity.
That's how I think the Bible sees purity.
Chapter five, and one of the topics you explore is wisdom and tact.
And you say that
When we exercise spiritual gifts, we need to do so with both wisdom and tact.
Can you explain a bit more about what you were meaning here?
(19:25):
Yeah, I've seen people with powerful prophetic ministries where that ministry has beenblunted because of a lack of wisdom and tact.
For example, if I go to speak in a church where the people don't know me very well and Ihave a prophetic word for somebody,
I've got to form a relational bridge with that person if that person's going to accept theUnless the word is so powerful, that it's so amazing that they're bowled over by it, the
(19:53):
sort of words of knowledge that John Wimber got.
But I don't have that gift.
I do have a certain prophetic gift, but I'm certainly not what I'd call a first divisionprophet by any means.
So if I have a word for somebody and I don't know them, I've got to form a relationalbridge with them.
If I just go up to them and say, I think God says this, this, and this, they're going tolook at me go, who are you?
(20:14):
What are you about?
So I think the way we exercise our gifts, whether it's word of knowledge, whether it'shealing, whether it's a prophecy, whether it's a word of encouragement, whether it's a
challenge or whatever, it depends on the relationship.
(20:36):
And the relationship is built up through wisdom and tact.
And particularly if we've got something that we feel God's saying to somebody whichmight...
be difficult for them, then we need tact on how to say that.
I'm reminded of a John Wimber story.
He was on a plane and he sat next to this man.
(20:58):
And he saw, I mean, he had, he saw things that I've never even seen.
He saw the word adulterer across the man's forehead.
And he goes, what do do about that?
So the lack of tact would go, excuse me, are you involved in adultery?
But the guy would close up.
He said, God, what do do about that?
And then he saw the word changed and he saw a woman's name, let's say Susan for want ofwhatever.
(21:23):
And then he said to the man, excuse me, does the name Susan mean anything to you?
Now that was, and the guy, that just broke him.
And the guy opened up, confessed, I think probably John Wimber led him to faith in Christon the airplane, because he did that sort of thing.
Now that I think is a very good example of the sort of tact.
I think
Particularly if we have a difficult thing to say to somebody, sometimes I think, becausewe think we're right, we can blunder in and we can just then actually destroy the impact
(21:55):
of the message that God has given to us.
Whenever God gives us anything, I think it's not just what we say, but how we say it.
And we need to ask God.
And there's that great scripture that says, if anybody lacks wisdom, letting them ask ofGod who gives to all generously.
So I'm asking God for wisdom.
many times a day because I think I'm very conscious of lacking it.
(22:17):
And I think the wisdom, and you see that with Daniel.
When the king ordered all the wise men of Babylon to be executed, which would includeDaniel and his friends, he spoke to the commander of the guard in such a way that the
commander actually shared with him what it was all about.
(22:40):
He used wisdom and tact.
to find out the true situation and then he was able to respond to it.
And throughout his book, throughout the book of Daniel, you see Daniel interacting withkings in a very wise and very tactful way.
And that's been a great example to me that if God's given me a gift, the gift will be moreeffective if I use it with wisdom intact.
(23:04):
I'm just looking through all my questions here and there's so much we could talk aboutthat you've packed into.
your book.
This indeed is the first book of a series that you've written on the book of Daniel.
So there is a lot to dive into there.
But just before we have a little break, one question that I really want to explore alittle bit is about crisis.
(23:30):
Crisis points, because I know in my life there have been many a crisis, some more seriousthan others.
I'm sure in the lives of our listeners as well, we've hit crisis points before and indeedwe can see in the book of Daniel that he indeed had to encounter and endure and navigate
(23:54):
several crisis moments in his life.
So what can we learn from Daniel's example when he hit a crisis point in life?
How did he respond and then likewise, how should we respond when we encounter crisis?
I think the most significant crisis which Daniel experienced was the threat of beingexecuted.
(24:18):
That's a pretty severe crisis which probably it's pretty bad.
Yeah, not many of our listeners have faced and What did he do?
And now the the standard sort of response might be well you when you face that you mustimmediately get down on your knees and pray and you must ask God
But very interestingly, the first thing he did, he went to his close friends and sharedthe situation with them.
(24:42):
And I think that's a very significant example for me that we can't do it on our own.
I think that the individualism of our Western societies has often crept into ourChristianity.
And it's reinforced by the Protestant doctrine of the individual priesthood of allbelievers.
which sadly has sometimes become the individual rightness of all believers, which is sadand then that destroys relationship.
(25:10):
So I think we all need people who we can turn to in a crisis.
It's not that we need to mobilize prayer all over the world.
I get sometimes prayer requests to pray for somebody's...
auntie's first cousin's husband or so somebody have no idea who they are.
(25:32):
But in desperation, people have sent out this wide ranging prayer request.
And I understand the motivation for it.
But I don't think it's about quantity of prayer.
There's not a there's not a factor like if if you had twice as much prayer, then what youwant is twice as likely to come about it.
Some tips some cosmic scale somewhere and then all of a sudden it's granted or whatever.
(25:56):
Yeah, exactly.
But I do think it's really important that we share together with trusted people.
And, you know, Jesus doesn't, says, where two or three are gathered together, there am Iin the midst of them.
I mean, he's in us all the time, but there is a special dynamic when people agree togetherand come together for a common purpose or to face a common crisis.
(26:21):
And, you know, we even say, don't we, in every dialogue, if a burden shared is a burdenlightened.
just often in a crisis situation, sharing the situation with our friends before you evenpray can sometimes give us a better sense of perspective.
I think the problem when we try and face situations on our own, things go round and roundin our head and it's a bit like a tractor going round a muddy field.
(26:45):
The rut just gets deeper and deeper and deeper until the tractor suddenly comes to agrinding halt.
And I think that often happens with us in our thought life, but somebody else coming intothat situation
brings us new perspectives.
So that I think is the crucial thing that I learned from the book of Daniel.
Of course, having got his friends together, he says, right, together, we need to fast andwe need to pray and we need to seek God.
(27:12):
And there's also no sense of panic.
think the, you know, it's like Corporal Jones on dad's army, don't panic, don't panic,don't panic.
That's often a reaction in a crisis.
But I think, you know, if we panic,
it blocks out our communication with God and I think it hinders us from thinking morerationally.
(27:36):
So I think being together, I think helps us with other people, helps us not to panic inthe crisis situation and to see it for what it is and to help us to get through it.
And there's a scripture that says in Galatians 6, bear one another's burdens.
and so fulfill the law of Christ.
(27:57):
I think that's a wonderful thing to do in a Christian community.
And I think that, well, I don't think, I know that this applies to people in leadershippositions as well, who might find it really difficult to perhaps share a burden or a
crisis moment because I'm the leader, I'm supposed to have it all together, I'm supposedto have all the answers.
(28:25):
But actually showing some vulnerability, showing that actually even the leader needs torely on others to live a Christian life, to live the way that God has designed things to
be, is really powerful and will actually free up others who you're trying to lead to dothe same rather than trying to go it alone.
(28:49):
think that's also something to bear in mind with what you've said there.
which is great.
Thank you.
In my book, I mentioned that they did a survey of, I think it was American pastors and thevast majority of American pastors had nobody who they would call a close friend.
And it's tragic.
And I suspect this may be one of the reasons why we've seen leaders fall into sexual sin,into financial sin, because there's no, the nurturing which they're receiving,
(29:21):
from their congregation is the nurturing of their false persona.
So the real them is not being nurtured.
Even though people say, you're a wonderful preacher, you're a great pastor, you'remarvelous, it's going onto the superficial them.
The real them is unnourished.
And so they look for it consciously or subconsciously in illegitimate directions.
(29:44):
It's very sad.
mean, one of my Anglican vicar friends told me at a vicar factory, they were told,
not to form friendships with any member of the congregation.
And I think that's tragic.
And against what the whole Christian message, Jesus had 12 disciples around him all thetime.
(30:06):
He had three very special ones.
Paul never did anything on his own.
He was either with Silas or with Timothy or with Barnabas.
And we can't do it on our own.
When I was in
leadership of my church in Brussels, we always had a team.
And team leadership is, well, it's so much more fun to do something with other people, butalso it protects you, it guards you.
(30:32):
it breaks down this whole kind of celebrity mentality that creeps into the church as well.
Who's the main person?
Who's the celebrity here that we all need to kind of rally around?
Well, no, we're in it together.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, that's great.
Well, we'll be back speaking more with Michael T.
(30:53):
Gowen about his life and his faith after these messages.
So do join us in a few moments.
(31:17):
So go on, buy me a coffee today and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian booksand authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blurb.
We are speaking with the author Michael T.
Gowen and we have been chatting about his book Daniel Being Distinctive in UncertainTimes.
(31:38):
Now before the break, Michael, we talked quite a lot about your book and Daniel and how itapplies to life today, which has been fascinating and really useful.
And so if that bit of the conversation interested you and you've been listening, do go andcheck out
book Daniel Being Distinctive in Uncertain Times because there is a whole lot more inthere where this came from so do go and check that out.
(32:05):
But at this point Daniel we like to get to know the author a little bit better.
You've given a few hints about ministry work and sort of life and being in Afghanistan andthings like that so
Do you still have a job?
Do you still travel to exotic places of the world or are you retired now?
(32:28):
Where are you at?
I have retired from paid employment.
I've been retired 10 years now.
I was able to take early retirement, which was a blessing.
I still keep myself very busy, but I now don't do anything in a hurry.
That's the big difference.
That's what I tell people.
(32:48):
And I do have a...
a choice as to whether I take things on or not.
Not traveling to so many exotic or dangerous places of the world as I was before, but I'minvolved.
I'm the European missions coordinator for Vineyard UK and Ireland.
So I'm involved in trying to, which is something very close to my heart, having lived inBelgium for 25 years, I'm involved in encouraging UK Christians to get involved in.
(33:18):
countries on the continent of Europe, because many of those countries, particularly in theSouth, know, Portugal, Spain, Italy, the proportion of genuine Christians is lower than in
say traditional mission fields, you know, like India or somewhere like that.
(33:38):
People just don't realize how good a heritage we've got in this country.
I know we've wasted much of our heritage.
I know that, you know,
things have gone downhill morally and spiritually in this country, but we're still streetsahead of most of the countries on the continent.
I lived in Belgium for 25 years.
The Spirit of God has never moved powerfully in the country of Belgium.
(34:01):
We're waiting for it.
mean, it'll happen in due course, but the heritage there is so different from here.
And in life there is just harder spiritually.
One of my friends, his daughter,
went to Cambridge University.
And at the end of the first term, she came back and she said, Mike, she said, you didn'ttell me how much easier life was in England, how much easier is to be a Christian.
(34:26):
The spiritual atmosphere is just so different.
And I thought, yeah, it is.
So that's, I do travel, I do travel through Europe.
But yeah, not, not quite so many exotic places.
Basically, I felt, well, I do go to Colombia as well, actually, regularly, and encourageChristians.
who are being persecuted there because one of my one of my also interests and concerns andburdens is to support brothers and sisters who are being persecuted.
(34:55):
And we've certainly supported a number of organizations who are involved there for many,many years.
And I, I do what practically I can.
Hmm.
that's fascinating.
And really interesting what you say about the spiritual sort of atmosphere, because Ithink sometimes the perception we have in the UK is, things
things are things are getting bad, things aren't great.
(35:16):
And yeah, there is an element of truth to it.
But we haven't had that external experience of going elsewhere to see what it's like inother places.
So that's very interesting.
Do you have any favorite things to eat seeing as you have been all over the world andstill travel to various places?
(35:36):
What's your most favorite thing to eat?
Is it like a traditional British roast when you get home or is it something more, moreexotic?
I always like a traditional British roast, but I think I'd go for, I'd go for Belgium,some Belgian stuff.
Moulfrites, which is mussels and chips.
yes, that's lovely.
They, the Belgians, apparently the French are the biggest muscle producers in Europe andthe Belgians take 80 % of their muscles.
(36:00):
The Belgians are absolutely crazy about mussels and they get the best.
So yeah, I'm, I'm very, very keen on Moulfrites and.
that's something providing it's the season.
That's something I always go for as soon as I go back to Belgium.
Not the chocolate then?
well, the chocolate, that goes without saying.
And of course the beer.
I always come, we come back always with a boot full of beer.
(36:24):
have, are over 400 beers in Belgium and they're all good.
that's wonderful.
And do you have any hobbies or things you like to do for fun?
Yeah, we, we,
We love to go to the theater.
We love to eat with friends.
I love to be with my children and grandchildren.
(36:44):
And once a week, I don't know whether you'd call it a hobby, but I've taken to eitherwalking 10 to 15 miles or biking 40 to 60 miles.
And it's like a Sabbath.
All I just enjoy being with God in his world.
I don't make a lot of intercessory requests.
(37:07):
I'm not expecting any great revelation.
I just enjoy being with him, expressing my love to him, receiving love from him in hisbeautiful world.
And I found that this is something I've newly discovered.
My wife's quite into contemplative theology and she has taught me just to sit and be withGod.
(37:28):
I say it's only over last 10 years that I've really discovered that because I'messentially, I think I'm an activist by nature.
I like to be doing.
But it's been a revelation to me just to sit and be with God or to be in the, just to walkor bike and be with God in the countryside.
It's just the most wonderful thing.
So yeah, there's some of the things I like doing.
(37:50):
and I like going and watching my football team, Northampton town.
Yes.
Third division, but I'm a faith, I'm a faithful supporter.
Wonderful.
Hopefully your prayers will carry them into the next division next year.
Well, if they stay in this division, I'll be very happy.
good.
Okay.
(38:11):
If you were a cartoon character, who would you be and why?
Well, living in Belgium, I'd have to go for Tintin, who the French call Tata.
He travels all over the world.
He always gets his man in the end, but he's somehow, somehow quirky.
And he has some...
unusual friends.
So I'm not sure I exactly liked Tintin, but I certainly would aspire to be like him.
(38:35):
That's great.
Thank you.
Great answer.
So quick fire questions.
Tea or coffee?
Chocolate or sweets?
Chocolate.
Cake or fruit?
Fruit.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Have you got any family and what does that look like for Yeah, I've got three adultchildren and I've got seven grandchildren aged between 10 and 19.
(38:57):
So there's 15 of us in total with my wife and my children's partners.
And we recently had a long weekend on the Algarve in Portugal to celebrate our goldenwedding anniversary.
Congratulations.
So that was a very wonderful time to all be together.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
(39:17):
Now I've mentioned previously that the book we spoke about today, Daniel Being Distinctivein Uncertain Times is the first of
a series.
So what can you tell us about the rest of the series and if you're working on anythingelse at the moment?
So Daniel, Daniel being distinctive deals with the first three chapters of the book ofDaniel, where he's basically him and his friends are adapting to life in Babylon and
(39:45):
making a stand for what is what is right.
The second second book was published last year, it's called Daniel being faithful inuncertain times.
That deals with Daniel chapter four to six, when he was more in middle and old age, and itexamines really how we can stay faithful to God throughout our life.
(40:07):
I'm very struck looking at the kings of Israel, how many of them started well and then inmid -life, they kind of just grew cold and deviated from the path.
Probably Solomon is the most traumatic example.
And I've asked God, God, I don't just want to start well, I want to finish well as well.
(40:29):
And you might say, well, I'm only perhaps 25 years old.
I don't read a book about being faithful, but I think you do because what Daniel beingfaithful in uncertain times is about is how we lay foundations in our life that will stand
us in good stead for the future.
It's a bit like Jesus talked about the house built on the rock.
(40:50):
You we lay good foundations.
The storm isn't there yet.
But we talked about crisis earlier.
We prepare for the crisis when there is no crisis by laying good foundations.
I think my second book really helps us to know how we can lay those foundations.
And then are you working on the third?
(41:11):
Because you haven't quite covered the whole book of Daniel yet.
No, I have a third book in process dealing with all the prophetic writings of Daniel.
This
has been incredibly difficult to write.
There are many and varied opinions on Daniel's chapters seven to 12.
And I've had many, many rewrites and many false starts, but I've come to the position tosay, can I, what do those chapters have to say to this generation that will help encourage
(41:46):
and prepare us for the future?
So I'm now halfway through chapter 11.
so I've got one more chapter after that for my first draft.
I think I'm gonna have to substantially rewrite the first draft because as I've got on inmy writing of the book, I've gained fresh insights.
(42:11):
But I'm hoping, my hope is that I can publish that third volume next year.
That's all if we look forward to reading that one.
and where can people buy the books?
Can people find you on social media and all that sort of thing?
Yeah.
The obvious place is Amazon.
they're always on Amazon.
They're on sites like Eden and foils and places like that.
(42:35):
I actually don't do social media.
I'm, I don't trust Mark Zuckerberg and I'm shocked at, particularly like with these, the,the riots that are going on or, and that we've seen in recent months.
Social media has not played a responsible role.
The people who run social media.
(42:56):
I feel that they're making a lot of money out of people, but they're not fulfilling theirrole.
They're not fulfilling their role, for example, to take down fraudulent posts or posts ofitems that are unsafe, fake news.
I think there's a whole debate around that.
I'm quite disturbed about social media.
And when I look at a film like The Social Dilemma, which you've probably seen,
(43:20):
And the guy who was a senior Facebook executive at the end says, I don't allow my childrenon social media.
I'm thinking, gosh, you know, so I, I don't criticize people to do social media.
That's great.
That's a personal decision, but that's, that's the personal decision I've taken.
So where can people find you?
have a website?
No, I don't know.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
(43:40):
you can find me by email.
Gowen dot writing at outlook .com.
That's a, I'm really old fashioned.
I am sorry.
I didn't grow up in the digital generation.
So when I get stuck on anything, I ask my grandchildren.
So I see that your books are published by Malcolm Down Publishing.
(44:04):
So I guess if people want to find out more about you and your books, you'll have a littleprofile on the Malcolm Down website and people can email Malcolm Down and
get put in touch that way and all that kind of thing.
If people want to get in touch, they can go through your publisher.
Or they can get in touch with me directly through my email.
I'm very, very happy.
Or they can do that.
Yeah.
(44:24):
That's great.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much, Michael, for joining us today.
It's been great chatting with you about your book and it's been a pleasure having you.
Thank you, Matt.
It's been great chatting to you as well.
And God bless you as you continue the Christian Book Blurb.
Thank you and thank you as well for listening to this episode of Christian Book BlurbDon't forget an episode comes out twice a month on the 1st and on the 15th so it won't be
(44:53):
long before another episode is coming your way.
So do join us again then for another episode of the Christian Book Blurb where I'll bespeaking with another Christian author about their books, their life and their faith.
Thank you for listening.
See you soon.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
(45:15):
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.