October 1, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast, host Matt McChlery interviews author Jenny Sanders about her book 'Polished Arrows'. They discuss the metaphor of arrows in relation to God's work in our lives, the process of discipleship, the importance of community, and the challenges of forgiveness. Jenny shares insights on how to navigate the journey of faith, emphasizing the need for personal transformation and the role of relationships in spiritual growth. They also chat about Jenny's nomadic life of ministry, her love of chicken salad and her first date with her husband at the original Top Gun movie.
Links
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Visit Jenny Sanders' blog jennysanderswriter.co.uk
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Takeaways
- God shapes us for His good purposes
- Discipleship involves a process of transformation.
- Saying goodbye to the old life is crucial for Christians.
- Forgiveness is essential for healing and freedom.
- Community is vital for effective discipleship.
- We must allow God to develop our spiritual grit.
- Forgiveness is a choice and a process.
- We need to be sharpened by others in our faith journey.
- God calls us to represent Him in a counter-cultural way.
- Writing can be a way to bring joy and hope to others.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Christian Book Blurb 00:30 Exploring 'Polished Arrows' and Its Metaphor 02:56 The Process of Arrow Making and Discipleship 06:09 Saying Goodbye to the Old Life 08:59 The Challenge of Forgiveness 15:04 The Importance of Community in Discipleship 18:46 Instructions for Being an Arrow 25:02 Jenny's Life and Writing Journey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery.com Hello and welcome to another editionof the Christian Book Blurb podcast, where we like to encourage you in your discipleship
(00:25):
one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian authors and we learn about theirbooks.
their lives and their faith.
I am your host Matt McChlery.
Thank you so much for clicking on over here and joining me today.
And on today's show, I'm going to be talking about how God works in our lives with theauthor Jenny Sanders.
Hi Jenny, welcome to the show.
(00:46):
Hi Matt, good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
And you've written a great new book.
We'll come on to what it's called in just a moment.
But first of all, your book deals with a metaphor.
that explains how God works in our lives.
So what is your book called and what is the metaphor that you use to explore the topic?
(01:10):
Okay well the book is called Polished Arrows and that comes from a verse in the OldTestament from Isaiah 49 verse 2, one of those messianic prophecies but multi-layered
prophecies, and it says God makes us into polished arrows and hides us in his quiver.
And it's the verse that's been with me for a long time.
(01:30):
I remember hearing it thinking, I wonder what that, what does that really mean?
You know, what might that look like?
What's the purpose of an How do you even make an arrow?
And obviously arrows are made to be fired effectively and with impact into whicheverculture and context they have.
I find it very powerful image.
But as I did research, I realized of course that arrows, old fashioned arrows that nowwe'd only see in maybe
(01:56):
recreations of historic events.
Hood movies or whatever.
Yeah, movies, yeah, films for sure.
It's quite a process.
And it's, it's a very specialized craft.
In fact, they have to be shaped.
And in the same way God kind of takes us, makes us, shapes us for his good purposes, andto fire us into what is effectively quite a hostile world.
(02:19):
He stores us in his quiver or he, in other words, he has a timing for us.
And sometimes we can feel
maybe forgotten in a dark lonely place and perhaps we're just in the cold darkness of thequiver.
There's a timing in God's purposes for us, but we can be ready for action.
So some arrows are used multiple times.
(02:40):
Some are used only once.
Some are used as a signal.
Some, you know, saw through the sky in flames to make real impact.
There's all sorts of arrows for all sorts of impact, but that's the basic image.
And really it's an allegory.
about discipleship, how God shapes us.
I was going to say, when you mentioned an allegory, it's kind of split into two bits,isn't it?
(03:04):
Where one, it talks about the process of arrow making and what that means and how that'ssignificant.
And then you balance it, don't you, at the end of each section with a look into the lifeof a biblical character to see how that outworks itself.
(03:25):
Why did you structure it that way?
Well, crafting an arrow is that old fashioned way, it's a chronological process.
Obviously from a very unpromising looking stick into a lethal weapon.
And the analogy in fact will fall down because discipleship and walking with Jesus isn'tas clearly chronological as that.
(03:46):
it's not that God can't use you till you've jumped through all the hoops or gone throughall the process.
It's no, not at all.
But I wanted to include a biblical character to just expand on the illustration really.
I didn't want it to be theoretical or this is an abstract idea or a slightly whimsicalthought.
I wanted to be very grounded in scripture.
I am a great believer in that.
(04:09):
I think things need to be seen to be robust and to be seen in three dimensions.
I mean, that's part of the word becoming flesh in our lives.
It's not just a happy thought or a fridge magnet or a...
you know, a saying on a calendar or something, insubstantial.
It has to be worked out in real life and it has to be able to be worked out in everycircumstance of life through trials, tribulations, ups and downs and all the rest of it
(04:34):
really.
So I, yeah, I actually pray quite a lot about which would be the best biblical characteror characters to illustrate the point that was being made.
And...
I mean, it's very gratifying, you know, as a writer to find that actually they're allthere.
They're all there in the Bible.
But of course they are because these are real people with real challenges living real lifeat their point in the timeline.
(05:02):
Not really good.
And so let's, let's dig down into a couple of the sort of themes, the discipleship themesthat you explore in your book.
There's loads in there, by the way, for those listening.
we're only scratching the surface on the podcast today.
So if you like what you hear do go and check out Polished Arrows Becoming a Ready Arrow inthe Hand of God by Jenny Sanders.
(05:25):
Right so in some of the early chapters you explore the importance of saying goodbye to theold.
Now what do you mean by this and why is this important for Christians?
Well, that's simply a picture of what Paul spends quite a long time talking about in hisletters.
(05:47):
It's moving from darkness to light or from death to life.
I it's pretty dramatic, isn't it, as a picture.
It's to do with following Jesus being rather a metamorphosis rather than simply turningover a new leaf.
know, God changes us from the inside out.
And that's intrinsic, isn't it, to becoming a real Jesus follower.
(06:09):
Hence, he says to Nicodemus, you must be born again.
I mean, that's a very dramatic picture.
So it's a breaking off from our old way of life where we were captain of our own ship, ifyou like, and allowing God to take over captaincy, to take the rudder and steer us.
So nothing is off limits for him.
It's all submitted to his reign and rule.
(06:31):
I remember back in the days of Sunday school, I don't know if you had a Sunday schoolbackground, Matt, but.
There was a saying that said if Jesus isn't Lord of all he isn't really Lord at all andThat's actually although that can settle a bit like a cliche It's actually a very powerful
statement and it's very challenging is Jesus Lord of all Well, maybe just to this sectionof life or that section of life to have him in order to everything In the hundred percent
(06:59):
submission.
No no-go areas is a is a huge thing.
So that that was
That's really the start of the journey for the arrow that breaking off from the old tree.
It has to be separated from where it used to get life from.
And then it becomes a stick in the hands of the master craftsman to be shaped into anarrow.
(07:23):
Yeah.
Just as you were talking there, I was just thinking how, when you mentioned that being aChristian is
process.
think that that's a really good thing to think about.
Because it's so you're right.
It's so much deeper than just, you know, yeah, well, I've said I've said a nice prayer.
(07:44):
Now, you know, everything's perfect.
Everything's rosy.
Well, actually, you've got to, you got to put your shoes on, you got to get to work, yougot to actually put your put your money where your mouth is, as it were, and actually
start to live this thing.
Another book I'm reading at the moment is talking about
when Jesus in the gospels, when he calls people to follow him, he's actually callingpeople to follow him, not just to believe in him, to actually follow him, to walk in the
(08:14):
way that he walks, to do the things that he does, to not do the things that he doesn't do.
And that's tricky.
And if we don't say goodbye to the old way of life, you're right, we still try and hold
the rains, don't we?
Yeah.
It's a huge, huge challenge, isn't it?
I think it's really important that we have to remember that this is a relationship,though, a living relationship.
(08:41):
And that actually it's not, have to now do this and this.
It's not a tick sheet.
I've got to do this.
I've got to do this.
Because then it becomes our self effort.
And that's not what it's all about.
know, it's relation.
Jesus has done everything that needs to be done.
God has now accepted us because of the wonder of grace.
and forgiveness, even if we fall flat on our face, it's not all over for us.
(09:03):
You know, it's just, okay, well, just get up again, you know, go back to him, start again.
You're not a sinner anymore in a theological sense.
You are now a saint who sometimes sins.
And that's a huge difference.
And that's very liberating and releasing.
It doesn't mean that we could go, well, it doesn't matter what I do anymore.
know, liberty doesn't become license, or it shouldn't do.
(09:24):
mean, Paul spends quite a lot of time in his letters, doesn't he?
And you've written a book about that, I know.
just admonishing churches to saying, come on guys.
Just, that's not how it is.
That's not authentic relationship.
That's taking it if it is.
And speaking of that, that kind of leads on to another theme that you talk about, becauseone of your chapters explores forgiveness.
(09:52):
And this can be something a lot of people struggle with.
For a number of different reasons, I guess some people struggle with forgiving somebodywho has hurt them or has grieved them in some way or whatever.
People struggle to forgive that person for whatever it is that they've done.
(10:14):
And also other people can really struggle to receive forgiveness, I guess.
Or even receiving forgiveness from God.
think, well, I'm too...
I'm too bad.
I've done stuff that's too awful.
And how could, how could anyone forgive what I've done?
You know, I'm finding it hard to forgive myself.
(10:35):
How can other, how could someone else forgive me?
So there's this wrestle with this idea of forgiveness.
What are your takes on it?
Yeah.
I think that thinking that, you know, how could someone forgive me?
That, that can become.
and this might be bit contentious, but that can become like an inverted form of pridebecause it puts ourselves at the centre of everything.
(11:01):
And you really don't think God is big enough and gracious enough, His love is vast enough,immeasurable enough to be able to include you when He says something.
You know, is what He's saying true or not?
Well, I absolutely, 100 % believe that it is.
So of course it includes you.
How could you...
you know, put yourself in a different place, so that beyond his reach, no one is beyondhis reach.
(11:22):
Nothing is too dreadful for him, nothing.
And that's what people call the offence of the cross, isn't it?
That actually, my goodness, how on earth could God forgive somebody as dreadful as thatperson over there?
You know, there's that going on.
But I think there's a number of reasons why forgiveness is super important.
I mean, I was once told that you could probably clear quite a lot of psychiatric wards ifpeople engaged in forgiveness.
(11:46):
Now, I don't know if there's any.
evidence for that at all.
it's the sort of thing you think, you know, they might, perhaps they're onto somethingnow, I'm not sure.
It makes you think, doesn't it?
It does make me think.
But there's a number of reasons.
I think first of all, every time that we pray the Lord's Prayer, regardless of what churchtradition you are a part of, that crops up, it?
(12:09):
What we're actually saying is, Father, forgive us in the same way that we forgive otherpeople.
which raises the question, well, how do you want God to forgive you?
How do I want God to forgive me?
Well, I would like it to be quick.
I'd like it to be full.
I'd like it to be without ranker, without constantly referring back to whatever that thingwas that I did where I stuffed up.
(12:33):
And in the book, I say that God forgives in four ways.
He forgives completely, thoroughly, frequently, and unhesitatingly where there isrepentance.
So not just remorse or, wish I hadn't been found out in that thing that I did, know, likesmall children are prone to do.
as adults we can do it too.
And some adults as well.
You nothing from them until they caught and they're of a sudden, I'm so sorry.
(12:57):
Especially politicians, but that may be a different podcast.
By the side.
my goodness.
We'll move on.
Yeah.
God's love is, you know, it's unending, unfailing, unlimited, unmerited.
and that's all bound up there.
You know, and if we don't forgive other people, then we ourselves become prisoner in asituation.
We store up all sorts of problems for ourselves.
(13:19):
We kind of get stuck.
While the one who has perhaps offended us or caused that harm may be skipping alongcompletely unaware while we're struggling.
But at the same time, forgiveness is never a trade.
know, I'll forgive you if you do this.
That's not God's caliber.
or kind of forgiveness.
(13:41):
that is something that I think we need to practice because it doesn't come easily.
And it doesn't mean that the hurt against us is not real or not deep.
We have to acknowledge that, think that is part of the process.
But really what we're doing is we're saying we give this to God a lot.
I'm going to give this pain, I have to give this to you.
(14:01):
I cannot sort this out.
I cannot have control over this situation, which we love, we?
Father, will you please deal with it?
You know this, you know me better than I know myself.
You know the situation, you know that person.
You've become the judge in this.
I don't want to take on that responsibility because it will crush me.
(14:21):
Forgiveness gives Jesus his rightful place.
That is why he died.
And if we don't allow that, it kind of diminishes the huge implications of the cross.
and salvation, it opens the door to healing as well, which is super important to us.
We've got to keep our wounds clean.
There's no one, know, nobody's getting out alive, but nobody's getting out unscathed, arewe?
(14:47):
We all have wounds.
So we have to keep them clean.
We can't allow them to become infected with bitterness.
And offence.
And offence.
just can't afford to do that.
There's too much at stake in seeing God's kingdom come.
And forgiveness stops us from making knee-jerk reactions.
well actually.
It keeps us away from revenge, away from vindictiveness.
(15:10):
It's a good practice for life in God's kingdom and with his family because we jostle alongwith each other, we bump into one another.
Forgiveness is a way of guarding our hearts.
It means that we're leaving less opportunity for the enemy to gain a foothold and to wreakhavoc, know, walk with Jesus.
(15:30):
How does forgiveness work?
Sometimes
People give a glimpses, don't they?
They don't really understand the situation.
say, just forgive them.
Or you have to forgive them because Jesus said you have to.
And you could find that really difficult.
You might say, okay, I forgive them.
But then you wake up the next day and you still got all these feelings and emotionsrumbling on.
(15:51):
think, well, I thought I'd forgiven them.
you know, what, what's happening?
What's going on?
Well, I think.
Forgiveness is a choice and sometimes it's a cold-blooded decision.
I will do this.
And it's also a process.
You may well have to do it more than once.
know, when the doctor gives you the prescription, take this three times a day and finishthe course till you're well.
(16:14):
know, forgiveness over, I I choose to do this, which is, yeah, it's a decision, but it'salso, I am going to choose not to bring this up.
again to myself or to others.
If it comes up in my mind, I've got to run straight to God with this, because this thingis going to really damage me.
And you get healed from it over time as well.
Yes, you do.
(16:34):
You have to choose to forgive, choose to forgive, and as time goes by that feeling orwhatever reduces.
And that time can be very long, think, particularly if you are somebody who hasexperienced trauma, certainly stage three trauma.
You know, it's no good for a Christian to come along and say, well, you just need toforgive that person and everything will be fine.
(17:00):
There is a process that has to be gone through.
And if you try and short circuit that process, you're actually going to inflict moretrauma on that person.
And that is unkind, unfair, unrealistic and pretty un-Jesus.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
And the flip side to that.
It's just interesting because in our discussion so far, I've already had like three otherbooks come to mind of different things.
(17:26):
I'm like, this is interesting.
But just the flip side of that, I was speaking to Dr.
Gary Chapman a while back about the, he wrote the five love languages, but he's just donea new book called the five apology languages.
that's kind of, and that's kind of the flip side of the forgiveness bit and kind ofrecognizing that people
(17:49):
receive an apology in a different kind of way.
So the way that you receive an apology might not be the same as how somebody else's whoyou're trying to apologize to.
And it's just trying to understand that.
And also from the other side, if you're being apologized to, it might not be in yourpreferred method or you don't feel it's a genuine apology or whatever.
(18:11):
but it's still choosing to forgive because that person has made an effort to reach out towhatever.
Another chapter of yours in your book, Polished Arrows, speaks about being oiled by theHoly Spirit, this arrow being oiled.
But in the same breath, your chapter also speaks about the need for our arrowheads to besharpened by iron.
(18:36):
So that kind of brings up a couple of things really.
Why are relationships with other Christians so vital to...
our effective discipleship.
Isn't it just about us and God and us and the Holy Spirit?
Let's just be oiled by the Holy Spirit and, you know, then everything will be great.
Why do we need this sharpening iron and other people?
(18:59):
Why do we need all that?
Yeah, it would be lovely wouldn't it?
It's just me and God.
Sounds so spiritual.
No, well, because basically God himself is a community, isn't he?
That's established right at the beginning of Genesis.
Let us make man.
in our image, let us make people.
Who is the us?
Father, Son, Holy Spirit in this wonderful poetic, glorious eternal dance.
(19:23):
It's the Greek, think it's perichoresis, isn't it?
It's just a wonderful picture of them together.
And so because they dwell in unity and they dwell in a relationship of mutual honor, if weare going to rightly represent God to the world, then we have to do so in community.
That is where the word becomes flesh with the one another.
(19:45):
I mean, if you do a study on the number one another's in the New Testament, there areplenty to keep you going for a very, very long time.
And actually, can't express love in a vacuum.
It has to be with other people.
It has to be.
Otherwise, it's not real.
(20:05):
The word hasn't become flesh until you're living that with other people, with all their...
faults and foibles and flaws and irritations and habits and the things that get on yournerves and all the rest of it.
It's not tested, is it?
It's not stretched and like a muscle.
It's got to be, you know, is it real?
(20:25):
You don't know whether that thing's real until it's lived out.
you know, Acts 15, they talk about when they pray to the things that seem right to us andthe Holy Spirit.
It's not just, well, God told me this, so therefore this.
In order to have the mind of Christ, no one person has that in an infallible way.
(20:46):
You have to, so until somebody else who has also prayed about any particular thing ifyou're in a community with them, and obviously there are trusted relationships and there's
spheres of relationships.
Jesus had spheres, didn't he, with John and then with Peter, James and John, and then itwent out the disciples and beyond that.
You need to contribute together.
(21:08):
you find out what God is saying.
And you may agree with what somebody has been saying, I really feel God is perhaps leadingus this way or saying this, but it's not the whole picture.
It can't be the whole picture because God doesn't work like that.
It has to be that thing.
And the picture of iron sharpening iron comes from Proverbs, Book of Wisdom.
We're to sharpen each other, but we are to sharpen each other, not destroy each other.
(21:33):
Sharpening friends are
I would say they're few and far between, but they are very, very precious.
People who have walked faithfully with God, probably over many years, people who havenavigated trials often of great times, of great pressure, perhaps great loss, but they're
(21:53):
people who want the best for us.
They don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk, which I know is also a little bit of acliche, but they're not super spiritual people.
They are authentic, they're honest.
If it sucks, they say yes.
I agree this sucks but in this horrible situation let us together press in to find God.
So they spur us on, they encourage us while they give us a safe space to vent.
(22:19):
So they're not gurus that we go to but they're full of integrity, they listen to us, theylove us but they don't allow us to wallow in self pity or retain bad attitudes.
They'll love us enough to ask us the hard questions.
and also help us get back on track and stick up to lift our eyes so that we're fixing themon Jesus.
(22:41):
Again, so I think a good question is always to ask, know, who sharpens you and who are yousharpening?
That's part of you know, an endo-discipleship chain.
Yeah, super, super important.
The iron sharpening, iron, the water of the word and the oil of the Holy Spirit.
That is, that's part of that process of fixing the arrowhead to the arrow.
(23:05):
That's really great.
Who sharpens you?
that which leads us to the final question that I want to ask before we have a short break.
And then we'll come back again afterwards.
It's basically what instructions do you have for, if we are arrows, what instructions doyou have for us?
Obviously one of them is who sharpens you, but what else is there?
(23:30):
Well, we have to remember that the master archer.
himself is God.
That is the whole point of this picture and we're submitting to his hand.
And while I was preparing this manuscript actually, I came across a verse in Habakkuk,which is not a book that we go to terribly often when you hear the Old Testament prophet
(23:52):
really bringing God's word about what is going to happen when Babylon comes in, inconsequence of the nation keep resisting.
God and his mercy and his grace.
And the verse was, and still is, verse nine in chapter three, which says, uncovered yourbow, you called for many arrows.
(24:15):
And that verse just jumped off the page really with huge, huge impact for me.
And it made me realize that once again, as for many generations, we are living in a timewhen God needs arrows.
people who are gonna represent him and his kingdom that are gonna be fired in acounter-cultural kind of way with grace, with mercy, with love, with compassion in order
(24:42):
to see his kingdom come and his kingdom extended.
So really as an instructor to us, it is time for us to step up, to give ourselves fully,to allow God to develop our spiritual muscle and our spiritual grit, which unfortunately
often happens in difficult times.
One of the final processes in creating the hour is to add what's called the whipping cord,which keeps those feathers, those fletchings in place.
(25:10):
And in the book, there is a picture of suffering sometimes.
That's what we cringe from.
I'm not sure I really signed up for that.
And actually we did because we said whatever.
And those are the places where God really works.
works inside us, where we choose are we going to press in or are we going to befair-weather followers who tap out every time it gets a bit too difficult.
(25:38):
So for ours I would encourage you say don't hold back but don't push forward too soon,listen, keep listening, enjoy the process of intimacy with God, assured that he doesn't
make mistakes, it's all about who you are rather than what you do, we're notperformance-based, this is a relationship as I said.
Make sure that relationship is nurtured, that it stays vibrant.
(26:02):
But also understand the times, like those, those chaps in the Old Testament, the men ofIssachar, they understood the times and knew what to do.
And then like Joshua, be bold and very courageous.
God is working his purpose out.
He hasn't changed his mind.
His throne is not wobbling.
He is not freaked out and panicked by what is happening across the world.
(26:23):
It just doesn't always look like we would prefer it to look.
That's great.
Thank you, Jenny.
We'll be chatting a bit more with Jenny Sanders after these.
More about her books, her life and her faith.
And of course, yeah, we would love to see you on the other side of these.
Later this month, Jenny Sanders is going to Zimbabwe in Africa, where she is hoping totake copies of her book Polished Arrows to give to 300 youth pastors in training who are
(26:54):
in the country over there.
and she is asking if anyone would like to sponsor a copy of Polished Arrows to be sent toZimbabwe that you can get in touch with her.
If you head over to her Facebook author page which is called Jenny Sanders Writer, if youjust search for Jenny Sanders Writer on Facebook you'll get onto her Facebook page where
(27:21):
you can send her a message and arrange to sponsor.
a copy of the book Polished Arrows to be given to one of the 300 youth pastors in trainingin Zimbabwe.
(27:53):
to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Club podcast.
I've been chatting with the author Jenny Sanders about her new book, Polished Arrows,becoming a ready arrow in the hand of God.
Now before the break, Jenny, we had a great chat about all lots of things going on in thebook.
(28:14):
Of course, there's a lot more in the book.
We can't do a whole audio book here on the podcast.
It would take a very long time.
And I don't know if your publishers would be too happy.
Yeah so we've delved into some bits of it and if you're interested please do go and checkout Jenny Sanders's book Polished Arrows and it'll be well worth your time doing that.
(28:35):
But at this part of the podcast we like to get to know you as a person as well.
Where do you live?
What do you do for fun?
All that kind of thing, all these big questions that people have sometimes maybe about theauthors they love to read.
Where do I live?
That is a very good question.
(28:56):
I live with my husband of 37 years, but we are quite nomadic.
So we travel a lot.
We've been involved with church planting for many, many years and training leaders,discipling leaders in many contexts, in church leadership, in business, yeah, loads of
(29:17):
different things.
we travel, we spend most of our time between currently
between South Africa and the UK.
Yes, we're doing this interview while I'm in France.
I was in Switzerland last week.
I'm supposed to be in Northern Ireland next week.
Yeah.
So it's, it's never dull, but I do spend a lot of time living out of a suitcase.
As you're doing all this traveling, I presume it's not just sort of sightseeing and takingloads of photos.
(29:46):
What else are you doing?
Writing books, but,
other things?
Is it ministry based or what does that look like?
Yes, it's a mixture.
mean, I'm very fortunate.
We are very fortunate that a lot of the people that we work with are wonderful people.
So we do a lot of fun things along the way.
And I do actually take a lot of photos because I enjoy that.
And it also reminds me where I was when, when I get a little bit confused, I do sometimeswake up in the night and I'm not quite sure, literally not sure where I am.
(30:14):
But I guess I do.
a lot of writing and of course I can do that wherever we go because as long as I've got alaptop and an electric socket then I can keep that going.
my first book, Spiritual Feasting, which was based on Psalm 23.5 asking and exploring howor if it's possible to feast at God's table when life serves dishes that are bitter and
(30:37):
sour.
I wrote a lot of that from Cape Town which was great.
My other books, there's two children's books, which I knew we were going to talk about.
They've been written, a lot of those were written in Bath, in Somerset and some in Surrey,where my 92 year old mum is, checking up on her.
(31:01):
And yeah, I love to read.
I read a whole variety of things.
I do particularly enjoy historical fiction.
I have to read different things at night.
I can't read anything too serious at night because then I don't sleep.
So I often have several books on the go.
I read a lot on Kindle when we're traveling, just simply from a weight allowancesituation.
(31:26):
I love to walk as well, particularly in green places or if there's a river as well, thenit's wonderful.
So here at the minute, we're very close to the Alps on top of the mountain.
Yesterday, it was bitterly cold at the top, but fantastic views.
Yeah.
So I love to do those things.
I love watching films.
I like good food.
I like laughing.
(31:48):
What kind of films do you tend to go for?
Is it more sort of romantic comedies or kind of action films?
What do you go for?
Real mixture.
I don't like anything that's too gruesome.
Although I am a fan of Gladiator, I must say.
There's a new one of those coming out.
Yeah, not sure that's going to cut it.
(32:08):
But anyway.
I do love Top Gun.
Top Gun was the original Top Gun was the first date I ever went on with my husband.
Yeah.
So we had to go see Top Gun too.
And I've already watched that several times.
I enjoy that.
I enjoy action.
I do enjoy some action films actually.
enjoy, Chris Hemsworth in Extraction.
(32:28):
That's great.
But I also enjoy things like, you know, the new persuasion film, Downton Abbey.
Downton Abbey.
The number of people I've spoke to, particularly from America.
they love it.
all Downton Abbey or British Bake Off fans.
It's just unbelievably, unbelievable how many.
Yeah, I have to try and catch up on TV series when I'm back in the UK because you can'twatch them, you know, beyond those borders.
(32:54):
So there's a mad rush to catch up.
I catch up.
Yeah.
And you're very well traveled.
So I would imagine you've eaten all sorts of different types of food.
Do you have any particular?
favorites or stand out things that you rarely think, I love that.
Or if you're not in the place that has that food, you sort of have a bit of a hankeringfor that food that you miss.
(33:18):
Yeah.
I think when we've been away a long time, I like to come home and make a chili, but nottoo spicy because I can't do particularly spicy.
But I think I could, I could probably eat things like chicken salad pretty much every dayfor ever and ever.
Roast chicken.
I mean, who doesn't love a roast, right?
Yeah, that's great.
That's wonderful.
So we mentioned your other books and you have written some children's books and I've seensome photos of you on social media wearing stick-on mustaches and all sorts of fun things
(33:50):
like that.
So what can you tell us about those?
Okay well there's actually two collections of children's stories which is about 5,000words per story, six stories in a book.
These are not Jesus stories specifically although you will pick up themes of
race and such like in them because they do have happy endings and that's partly because Ithink children need a lot more happy stories than are currently available to them.
(34:15):
I spent a couple of years working in a school in Wiltshire with Key Stage 2 children whichis aged 7 to 11, junior school for those of us who are from a different era.
And I didn't enjoy some of the books that I saw on the shelves, a lot of dark themes thatI'm not sure I'd have been too excited about.
my children reading.
(34:36):
have four grown and flown fabulous children.
So I started writing them, partly because my eldest daughter was involved in social workand in frontline child protection, which is pretty hectic.
Pretty full on.
And yeah, being 6,000 miles away in Cape Town at time, was just like, what can I do?
(34:58):
can't hug her, I can't take her out, can't.
What can I do?
I know in the end I thought,
I will try and write her a funny story like the ones we used to read together to just giveher a smile and give her something different.
So I wrote a story for her and anyone listening who has children, who is a parent, knowsthat if you do something for one child, you have to do it for every child.
(35:21):
So that then obliged me to write three more stories in a similar kind of tone.
And I had them printed.
online and gave them to them on Christmas Eve and said, you you've all had your own storynow, you can read each other's, know, cut up in bed and do that, which I think they do in
Iceland, don't they?
give each other books on Christmas Eve to read in bed.
(35:43):
And as I looked at it, I thought, you know what, this could actually work as a collectionif I rejig it a bit so the stories are a similar length and I add a few more, we could do
this, this could work and perhaps fill a need.
And I also found working in a school that for some children,
thought of reading an entire book was actually a overwhelming.
(36:05):
It can be quite intimidating.
And then if it takes them a long time, they lose the thread of the story.
So they lose interest.
It just becomes a chore.
And I am a great believer in reading being a pleasure for children.
So short stories seemed a good way forward, really.
So I did that.
And I was very fortunate to find a publisher who was interested, the Conrad Press.
(36:29):
And so The Magnificent Mustache and other stories came out in 2022, I think.
I think I've got that right.
And I began to go into primary schools and take creative writing lessons off the back ofthose stories, which is enormous fun.
I'm doing one in Northern Ireland next week.
(36:51):
And I said, thought, OK, I think there's some more ideas percolating around.
Let's see if we can do that.
And so I wrote another six stories.
which came out under the title Charlie Peaches Pumpkins and Other Stories.
And I always have to emphasize for the Christians in this context, pumpkins are just avegetable.
They are nothing to do with Halloween.
(37:11):
They are not spooky.
There is nothing dark or unpleasant or, you know, unwelcome in these stories.
They are simply fun, silly stories with quirky characters who do silly things.
So Charlie Peaches Pumpkins.
And I wrote that actually with more
of a thought of taking them into schools because the Magnificent Moustache, I just thoughtthis would be a fun book, I hadn't really pursued that.
(37:37):
So it has some different themes like intergenerational relationships, dealing withboredom, recycling, bullying, not in a preachy kind of way, but they're just under the
surface there.
So we can unpack them and talk about them in that situation.
So those are out there, those are available.
(37:58):
You can order them at bookshops or they're available online from the usual Big Badplatform.
And speaking about where to buy your books from, are you on social media?
Can people find you and follow you?
I am very much on So your moustache photos?
Yes, yes.
Even my book now has its own moustache stuck on the front of it.
(38:20):
Yes, yes, I am in all of those places.
I am on Instagram as Jenny Sanders writer.
I'm on threads.
I'm just finding my way there, not enjoying that terribly, but I know Jenny H.
Sanders, Twitter, which isn't Twitter anymore, X at Jenny H.
Sanders.
I write a blog which used to be called Dancing Through Chaos because my life felt quitechaotic and I felt that I had a choice whether I was going to dance through it or, you
(38:47):
know, moan about it to be honest.
But that has changed its name.
It's now called jennysanderswriter.co.uk and you can find things there.
You can find an author page on Goodreads and on Amazon.
And you can contact me through any of those things.
And I will be available as a speaker, church weekends or breakfasts or whatever.
(39:14):
Get in touch.
That'd be great.
Yeah, great.
So yeah, contact Jenny through those ways.
I'll put a link to Jenny's blog in the show notes of this episode so that you can connectwith her as well.
way, if you wish to.
that's great.
So, well, it's been a pleasure, chatting with you this episode.
(39:35):
Learned a lot about you and also about your new book, Polished Arrows.
So thank you for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
I hope to meet some listeners on one of those platforms or through one of the other.
writing forums and things that I do.
That's great.
Thank you so much and thank you as well for listening to this episode of the ChristianBook Blurb podcast.
(39:56):
Don't forget we come out twice a month on the 1st and on the 15th so we will look forwardto welcoming you back soon for another episode of the Christian Book Blurb where I'll be
speaking with another fantastic Christian author all about their books, their life andtheir faith.
We'll see you then.
Goodbye.
(40:17):
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery.com Hello and welcome to another editionof the Christian Book Blurb podcast, where we like to encourage you in your discipleship
(00:25):
one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian authors and we learn about theirbooks.
their lives and their faith.
I am your host Matt McChlery.
Thank you so much for clicking on over here and joining me today.
And on today's show, I'm going to be talking about how God works in our lives with theauthor Jenny Sanders.
Hi Jenny, welcome to the show.
(00:46):
Hi Matt, good to be here.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
And you've written a great new book.
We'll come on to what it's called in just a moment.
But first of all, your book deals with a metaphor.
that explains how God works in our lives.
So what is your book called and what is the metaphor that you use to explore the topic?
(01:10):
Okay well the book is called Polished Arrows and that comes from a verse in the OldTestament from Isaiah 49 verse 2, one of those messianic prophecies but multi-layered
prophecies, and it says God makes us into polished arrows and hides us in his quiver.
And it's the verse that's been with me for a long time.
(01:30):
I remember hearing it thinking, I wonder what that, what does that really mean?
You know, what might that look like?
What's the purpose of an How do you even make an arrow?
And obviously arrows are made to be fired effectively and with impact into whicheverculture and context they have.
I find it very powerful image.
But as I did research, I realized of course that arrows, old fashioned arrows that nowwe'd only see in maybe
(01:56):
recreations of historic events.
Hood movies or whatever.
Yeah, movies, yeah, films for sure.
It's quite a process.
And it's, it's a very specialized craft.
In fact, they have to be shaped.
And in the same way God kind of takes us, makes us, shapes us for his good purposes, andto fire us into what is effectively quite a hostile world.
(02:19):
He stores us in his quiver or he, in other words, he has a timing for us.
And sometimes we can feel
maybe forgotten in a dark lonely place and perhaps we're just in the cold darkness of thequiver.
There's a timing in God's purposes for us, but we can be ready for action.
So some arrows are used multiple times.
(02:40):
Some are used only once.
Some are used as a signal.
Some, you know, saw through the sky in flames to make real impact.
There's all sorts of arrows for all sorts of impact, but that's the basic image.
And really it's an allegory.
about discipleship, how God shapes us.
I was going to say, when you mentioned an allegory, it's kind of split into two bits,isn't it?
(03:04):
Where one, it talks about the process of arrow making and what that means and how that'ssignificant.
And then you balance it, don't you, at the end of each section with a look into the lifeof a biblical character to see how that outworks itself.
(03:25):
Why did you structure it that way?
Well, crafting an arrow is that old fashioned way, it's a chronological process.
Obviously from a very unpromising looking stick into a lethal weapon.
And the analogy in fact will fall down because discipleship and walking with Jesus isn'tas clearly chronological as that.
(03:46):
it's not that God can't use you till you've jumped through all the hoops or gone throughall the process.
It's no, not at all.
But I wanted to include a biblical character to just expand on the illustration really.
I didn't want it to be theoretical or this is an abstract idea or a slightly whimsicalthought.
I wanted to be very grounded in scripture.
I am a great believer in that.
(04:09):
I think things need to be seen to be robust and to be seen in three dimensions.
I mean, that's part of the word becoming flesh in our lives.
It's not just a happy thought or a fridge magnet or a...
you know, a saying on a calendar or something, insubstantial.
It has to be worked out in real life and it has to be able to be worked out in everycircumstance of life through trials, tribulations, ups and downs and all the rest of it
(04:34):
really.
So I, yeah, I actually pray quite a lot about which would be the best biblical characteror characters to illustrate the point that was being made.
And...
I mean, it's very gratifying, you know, as a writer to find that actually they're allthere.
They're all there in the Bible.
But of course they are because these are real people with real challenges living real lifeat their point in the timeline.
(05:02):
Not really good.
And so let's, let's dig down into a couple of the sort of themes, the discipleship themesthat you explore in your book.
There's loads in there, by the way, for those listening.
we're only scratching the surface on the podcast today.
So if you like what you hear do go and check out Polished Arrows Becoming a Ready Arrow inthe Hand of God by Jenny Sanders.
(05:25):
Right so in some of the early chapters you explore the importance of saying goodbye to theold.
Now what do you mean by this and why is this important for Christians?
Well, that's simply a picture of what Paul spends quite a long time talking about in hisletters.
(05:47):
It's moving from darkness to light or from death to life.
I it's pretty dramatic, isn't it, as a picture.
It's to do with following Jesus being rather a metamorphosis rather than simply turningover a new leaf.
know, God changes us from the inside out.
And that's intrinsic, isn't it, to becoming a real Jesus follower.
(06:09):
Hence, he says to Nicodemus, you must be born again.
I mean, that's a very dramatic picture.
So it's a breaking off from our old way of life where we were captain of our own ship, ifyou like, and allowing God to take over captaincy, to take the rudder and steer us.
So nothing is off limits for him.
It's all submitted to his reign and rule.
(06:31):
I remember back in the days of Sunday school, I don't know if you had a Sunday schoolbackground, Matt, but.
There was a saying that said if Jesus isn't Lord of all he isn't really Lord at all andThat's actually although that can settle a bit like a cliche It's actually a very powerful
statement and it's very challenging is Jesus Lord of all Well, maybe just to this sectionof life or that section of life to have him in order to everything In the hundred percent
(06:59):
submission.
No no-go areas is a is a huge thing.
So that that was
That's really the start of the journey for the arrow that breaking off from the old tree.
It has to be separated from where it used to get life from.
And then it becomes a stick in the hands of the master craftsman to be shaped into anarrow.
(07:23):
Yeah.
Just as you were talking there, I was just thinking how, when you mentioned that being aChristian is
process.
think that that's a really good thing to think about.
Because it's so you're right.
It's so much deeper than just, you know, yeah, well, I've said I've said a nice prayer.
(07:44):
Now, you know, everything's perfect.
Everything's rosy.
Well, actually, you've got to, you got to put your shoes on, you got to get to work, yougot to actually put your put your money where your mouth is, as it were, and actually
start to live this thing.
Another book I'm reading at the moment is talking about
when Jesus in the gospels, when he calls people to follow him, he's actually callingpeople to follow him, not just to believe in him, to actually follow him, to walk in the
(08:14):
way that he walks, to do the things that he does, to not do the things that he doesn't do.
And that's tricky.
And if we don't say goodbye to the old way of life, you're right, we still try and hold
the rains, don't we?
Yeah.
It's a huge, huge challenge, isn't it?
I think it's really important that we have to remember that this is a relationship,though, a living relationship.
(08:41):
And that actually it's not, have to now do this and this.
It's not a tick sheet.
I've got to do this.
I've got to do this.
Because then it becomes our self effort.
And that's not what it's all about.
know, it's relation.
Jesus has done everything that needs to be done.
God has now accepted us because of the wonder of grace.
and forgiveness, even if we fall flat on our face, it's not all over for us.
(09:03):
You know, it's just, okay, well, just get up again, you know, go back to him, start again.
You're not a sinner anymore in a theological sense.
You are now a saint who sometimes sins.
And that's a huge difference.
And that's very liberating and releasing.
It doesn't mean that we could go, well, it doesn't matter what I do anymore.
know, liberty doesn't become license, or it shouldn't do.
(09:24):
mean, Paul spends quite a lot of time in his letters, doesn't he?
And you've written a book about that, I know.
just admonishing churches to saying, come on guys.
Just, that's not how it is.
That's not authentic relationship.
That's taking it if it is.
And speaking of that, that kind of leads on to another theme that you talk about, becauseone of your chapters explores forgiveness.
(09:52):
And this can be something a lot of people struggle with.
For a number of different reasons, I guess some people struggle with forgiving somebodywho has hurt them or has grieved them in some way or whatever.
People struggle to forgive that person for whatever it is that they've done.
(10:14):
And also other people can really struggle to receive forgiveness, I guess.
Or even receiving forgiveness from God.
think, well, I'm too...
I'm too bad.
I've done stuff that's too awful.
And how could, how could anyone forgive what I've done?
You know, I'm finding it hard to forgive myself.
(10:35):
How can other, how could someone else forgive me?
So there's this wrestle with this idea of forgiveness.
What are your takes on it?
Yeah.
I think that thinking that, you know, how could someone forgive me?
That, that can become.
and this might be bit contentious, but that can become like an inverted form of pridebecause it puts ourselves at the centre of everything.
(11:01):
And you really don't think God is big enough and gracious enough, His love is vast enough,immeasurable enough to be able to include you when He says something.
You know, is what He's saying true or not?
Well, I absolutely, 100 % believe that it is.
So of course it includes you.
How could you...
you know, put yourself in a different place, so that beyond his reach, no one is beyondhis reach.
(11:22):
Nothing is too dreadful for him, nothing.
And that's what people call the offence of the cross, isn't it?
That actually, my goodness, how on earth could God forgive somebody as dreadful as thatperson over there?
You know, there's that going on.
But I think there's a number of reasons why forgiveness is super important.
I mean, I was once told that you could probably clear quite a lot of psychiatric wards ifpeople engaged in forgiveness.
(11:46):
Now, I don't know if there's any.
evidence for that at all.
it's the sort of thing you think, you know, they might, perhaps they're onto somethingnow, I'm not sure.
It makes you think, doesn't it?
It does make me think.
But there's a number of reasons.
I think first of all, every time that we pray the Lord's Prayer, regardless of what churchtradition you are a part of, that crops up, it?
(12:09):
What we're actually saying is, Father, forgive us in the same way that we forgive otherpeople.
which raises the question, well, how do you want God to forgive you?
How do I want God to forgive me?
Well, I would like it to be quick.
I'd like it to be full.
I'd like it to be without ranker, without constantly referring back to whatever that thingwas that I did where I stuffed up.
(12:33):
And in the book, I say that God forgives in four ways.
He forgives completely, thoroughly, frequently, and unhesitatingly where there isrepentance.
So not just remorse or, wish I hadn't been found out in that thing that I did, know, likesmall children are prone to do.
as adults we can do it too.
And some adults as well.
You nothing from them until they caught and they're of a sudden, I'm so sorry.
(12:57):
Especially politicians, but that may be a different podcast.
By the side.
my goodness.
We'll move on.
Yeah.
God's love is, you know, it's unending, unfailing, unlimited, unmerited.
and that's all bound up there.
You know, and if we don't forgive other people, then we ourselves become prisoner in asituation.
We store up all sorts of problems for ourselves.
(13:19):
We kind of get stuck.
While the one who has perhaps offended us or caused that harm may be skipping alongcompletely unaware while we're struggling.
But at the same time, forgiveness is never a trade.
know, I'll forgive you if you do this.
That's not God's caliber.
or kind of forgiveness.
(13:41):
that is something that I think we need to practice because it doesn't come easily.
And it doesn't mean that the hurt against us is not real or not deep.
We have to acknowledge that, think that is part of the process.
But really what we're doing is we're saying we give this to God a lot.
I'm going to give this pain, I have to give this to you.
(14:01):
I cannot sort this out.
I cannot have control over this situation, which we love, we?
Father, will you please deal with it?
You know this, you know me better than I know myself.
You know the situation, you know that person.
You've become the judge in this.
I don't want to take on that responsibility because it will crush me.
(14:21):
Forgiveness gives Jesus his rightful place.
That is why he died.
And if we don't allow that, it kind of diminishes the huge implications of the cross.
and salvation, it opens the door to healing as well, which is super important to us.
We've got to keep our wounds clean.
There's no one, know, nobody's getting out alive, but nobody's getting out unscathed, arewe?
(14:47):
We all have wounds.
So we have to keep them clean.
We can't allow them to become infected with bitterness.
And offence.
And offence.
just can't afford to do that.
There's too much at stake in seeing God's kingdom come.
And forgiveness stops us from making knee-jerk reactions.
well actually.
It keeps us away from revenge, away from vindictiveness.
(15:10):
It's a good practice for life in God's kingdom and with his family because we jostle alongwith each other, we bump into one another.
Forgiveness is a way of guarding our hearts.
It means that we're leaving less opportunity for the enemy to gain a foothold and to wreakhavoc, know, walk with Jesus.
(15:30):
How does forgiveness work?
Sometimes
People give a glimpses, don't they?
They don't really understand the situation.
say, just forgive them.
Or you have to forgive them because Jesus said you have to.
And you could find that really difficult.
You might say, okay, I forgive them.
But then you wake up the next day and you still got all these feelings and emotionsrumbling on.
(15:51):
think, well, I thought I'd forgiven them.
you know, what, what's happening?
What's going on?
Well, I think.
Forgiveness is a choice and sometimes it's a cold-blooded decision.
I will do this.
And it's also a process.
You may well have to do it more than once.
know, when the doctor gives you the prescription, take this three times a day and finishthe course till you're well.
(16:14):
know, forgiveness over, I I choose to do this, which is, yeah, it's a decision, but it'salso, I am going to choose not to bring this up.
again to myself or to others.
If it comes up in my mind, I've got to run straight to God with this, because this thingis going to really damage me.
And you get healed from it over time as well.
Yes, you do.
(16:34):
You have to choose to forgive, choose to forgive, and as time goes by that feeling orwhatever reduces.
And that time can be very long, think, particularly if you are somebody who hasexperienced trauma, certainly stage three trauma.
You know, it's no good for a Christian to come along and say, well, you just need toforgive that person and everything will be fine.
(17:00):
There is a process that has to be gone through.
And if you try and short circuit that process, you're actually going to inflict moretrauma on that person.
And that is unkind, unfair, unrealistic and pretty un-Jesus.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
And the flip side to that.
It's just interesting because in our discussion so far, I've already had like three otherbooks come to mind of different things.
(17:26):
I'm like, this is interesting.
But just the flip side of that, I was speaking to Dr.
Gary Chapman a while back about the, he wrote the five love languages, but he's just donea new book called the five apology languages.
that's kind of, and that's kind of the flip side of the forgiveness bit and kind ofrecognizing that people
(17:49):
receive an apology in a different kind of way.
So the way that you receive an apology might not be the same as how somebody else's whoyou're trying to apologize to.
And it's just trying to understand that.
And also from the other side, if you're being apologized to, it might not be in yourpreferred method or you don't feel it's a genuine apology or whatever.
(18:11):
but it's still choosing to forgive because that person has made an effort to reach out towhatever.
Another chapter of yours in your book, Polished Arrows, speaks about being oiled by theHoly Spirit, this arrow being oiled.
But in the same breath, your chapter also speaks about the need for our arrowheads to besharpened by iron.
(18:36):
So that kind of brings up a couple of things really.
Why are relationships with other Christians so vital to...
our effective discipleship.
Isn't it just about us and God and us and the Holy Spirit?
Let's just be oiled by the Holy Spirit and, you know, then everything will be great.
Why do we need this sharpening iron and other people?
(18:59):
Why do we need all that?
Yeah, it would be lovely wouldn't it?
It's just me and God.
Sounds so spiritual.
No, well, because basically God himself is a community, isn't he?
That's established right at the beginning of Genesis.
Let us make man.
in our image, let us make people.
Who is the us?
Father, Son, Holy Spirit in this wonderful poetic, glorious eternal dance.
(19:23):
It's the Greek, think it's perichoresis, isn't it?
It's just a wonderful picture of them together.
And so because they dwell in unity and they dwell in a relationship of mutual honor, if weare going to rightly represent God to the world, then we have to do so in community.
That is where the word becomes flesh with the one another.
(19:45):
I mean, if you do a study on the number one another's in the New Testament, there areplenty to keep you going for a very, very long time.
And actually, can't express love in a vacuum.
It has to be with other people.
It has to be.
Otherwise, it's not real.
(20:05):
The word hasn't become flesh until you're living that with other people, with all their...
faults and foibles and flaws and irritations and habits and the things that get on yournerves and all the rest of it.
It's not tested, is it?
It's not stretched and like a muscle.
It's got to be, you know, is it real?
(20:25):
You don't know whether that thing's real until it's lived out.
you know, Acts 15, they talk about when they pray to the things that seem right to us andthe Holy Spirit.
It's not just, well, God told me this, so therefore this.
In order to have the mind of Christ, no one person has that in an infallible way.
(20:46):
You have to, so until somebody else who has also prayed about any particular thing ifyou're in a community with them, and obviously there are trusted relationships and there's
spheres of relationships.
Jesus had spheres, didn't he, with John and then with Peter, James and John, and then itwent out the disciples and beyond that.
You need to contribute together.
(21:08):
you find out what God is saying.
And you may agree with what somebody has been saying, I really feel God is perhaps leadingus this way or saying this, but it's not the whole picture.
It can't be the whole picture because God doesn't work like that.
It has to be that thing.
And the picture of iron sharpening iron comes from Proverbs, Book of Wisdom.
We're to sharpen each other, but we are to sharpen each other, not destroy each other.
(21:33):
Sharpening friends are
I would say they're few and far between, but they are very, very precious.
People who have walked faithfully with God, probably over many years, people who havenavigated trials often of great times, of great pressure, perhaps great loss, but they're
(21:53):
people who want the best for us.
They don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk, which I know is also a little bit of acliche, but they're not super spiritual people.
They are authentic, they're honest.
If it sucks, they say yes.
I agree this sucks but in this horrible situation let us together press in to find God.
So they spur us on, they encourage us while they give us a safe space to vent.
(22:19):
So they're not gurus that we go to but they're full of integrity, they listen to us, theylove us but they don't allow us to wallow in self pity or retain bad attitudes.
They'll love us enough to ask us the hard questions.
and also help us get back on track and stick up to lift our eyes so that we're fixing themon Jesus.
(22:41):
Again, so I think a good question is always to ask, know, who sharpens you and who are yousharpening?
That's part of you know, an endo-discipleship chain.
Yeah, super, super important.
The iron sharpening, iron, the water of the word and the oil of the Holy Spirit.
That is, that's part of that process of fixing the arrowhead to the arrow.
(23:05):
That's really great.
Who sharpens you?
that which leads us to the final question that I want to ask before we have a short break.
And then we'll come back again afterwards.
It's basically what instructions do you have for, if we are arrows, what instructions doyou have for us?
Obviously one of them is who sharpens you, but what else is there?
(23:30):
Well, we have to remember that the master archer.
himself is God.
That is the whole point of this picture and we're submitting to his hand.
And while I was preparing this manuscript actually, I came across a verse in Habakkuk,which is not a book that we go to terribly often when you hear the Old Testament prophet
(23:52):
really bringing God's word about what is going to happen when Babylon comes in, inconsequence of the nation keep resisting.
God and his mercy and his grace.
And the verse was, and still is, verse nine in chapter three, which says, uncovered yourbow, you called for many arrows.
(24:15):
And that verse just jumped off the page really with huge, huge impact for me.
And it made me realize that once again, as for many generations, we are living in a timewhen God needs arrows.
people who are gonna represent him and his kingdom that are gonna be fired in acounter-cultural kind of way with grace, with mercy, with love, with compassion in order
(24:42):
to see his kingdom come and his kingdom extended.
So really as an instructor to us, it is time for us to step up, to give ourselves fully,to allow God to develop our spiritual muscle and our spiritual grit, which unfortunately
often happens in difficult times.
One of the final processes in creating the hour is to add what's called the whipping cord,which keeps those feathers, those fletchings in place.
(25:10):
And in the book, there is a picture of suffering sometimes.
That's what we cringe from.
I'm not sure I really signed up for that.
And actually we did because we said whatever.
And those are the places where God really works.
works inside us, where we choose are we going to press in or are we going to befair-weather followers who tap out every time it gets a bit too difficult.
(25:38):
So for ours I would encourage you say don't hold back but don't push forward too soon,listen, keep listening, enjoy the process of intimacy with God, assured that he doesn't
make mistakes, it's all about who you are rather than what you do, we're notperformance-based, this is a relationship as I said.
Make sure that relationship is nurtured, that it stays vibrant.
(26:02):
But also understand the times, like those, those chaps in the Old Testament, the men ofIssachar, they understood the times and knew what to do.
And then like Joshua, be bold and very courageous.
God is working his purpose out.
He hasn't changed his mind.
His throne is not wobbling.
He is not freaked out and panicked by what is happening across the world.
(26:23):
It just doesn't always look like we would prefer it to look.
That's great.
Thank you, Jenny.
We'll be chatting a bit more with Jenny Sanders after these.
More about her books, her life and her faith.
And of course, yeah, we would love to see you on the other side of these.
Later this month, Jenny Sanders is going to Zimbabwe in Africa, where she is hoping totake copies of her book Polished Arrows to give to 300 youth pastors in training who are
(26:54):
in the country over there.
and she is asking if anyone would like to sponsor a copy of Polished Arrows to be sent toZimbabwe that you can get in touch with her.
If you head over to her Facebook author page which is called Jenny Sanders Writer, if youjust search for Jenny Sanders Writer on Facebook you'll get onto her Facebook page where
(27:21):
you can send her a message and arrange to sponsor.
a copy of the book Polished Arrows to be given to one of the 300 youth pastors in trainingin Zimbabwe.
(27:53):
to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Club podcast.
I've been chatting with the author Jenny Sanders about her new book, Polished Arrows,becoming a ready arrow in the hand of God.
Now before the break, Jenny, we had a great chat about all lots of things going on in thebook.
(28:14):
Of course, there's a lot more in the book.
We can't do a whole audio book here on the podcast.
It would take a very long time.
And I don't know if your publishers would be too happy.
Yeah so we've delved into some bits of it and if you're interested please do go and checkout Jenny Sanders's book Polished Arrows and it'll be well worth your time doing that.
(28:35):
But at this part of the podcast we like to get to know you as a person as well.
Where do you live?
What do you do for fun?
All that kind of thing, all these big questions that people have sometimes maybe about theauthors they love to read.
Where do I live?
That is a very good question.
(28:56):
I live with my husband of 37 years, but we are quite nomadic.
So we travel a lot.
We've been involved with church planting for many, many years and training leaders,discipling leaders in many contexts, in church leadership, in business, yeah, loads of
(29:17):
different things.
we travel, we spend most of our time between currently
between South Africa and the UK.
Yes, we're doing this interview while I'm in France.
I was in Switzerland last week.
I'm supposed to be in Northern Ireland next week.
Yeah.
So it's, it's never dull, but I do spend a lot of time living out of a suitcase.
As you're doing all this traveling, I presume it's not just sort of sightseeing and takingloads of photos.
(29:46):
What else are you doing?
Writing books, but,
other things?
Is it ministry based or what does that look like?
Yes, it's a mixture.
mean, I'm very fortunate.
We are very fortunate that a lot of the people that we work with are wonderful people.
So we do a lot of fun things along the way.
And I do actually take a lot of photos because I enjoy that.
And it also reminds me where I was when, when I get a little bit confused, I do sometimeswake up in the night and I'm not quite sure, literally not sure where I am.
(30:14):
But I guess I do.
a lot of writing and of course I can do that wherever we go because as long as I've got alaptop and an electric socket then I can keep that going.
my first book, Spiritual Feasting, which was based on Psalm 23.5 asking and exploring howor if it's possible to feast at God's table when life serves dishes that are bitter and
(30:37):
sour.
I wrote a lot of that from Cape Town which was great.
My other books, there's two children's books, which I knew we were going to talk about.
They've been written, a lot of those were written in Bath, in Somerset and some in Surrey,where my 92 year old mum is, checking up on her.
(31:01):
And yeah, I love to read.
I read a whole variety of things.
I do particularly enjoy historical fiction.
I have to read different things at night.
I can't read anything too serious at night because then I don't sleep.
So I often have several books on the go.
I read a lot on Kindle when we're traveling, just simply from a weight allowancesituation.
(31:26):
I love to walk as well, particularly in green places or if there's a river as well, thenit's wonderful.
So here at the minute, we're very close to the Alps on top of the mountain.
Yesterday, it was bitterly cold at the top, but fantastic views.
Yeah.
So I love to do those things.
I love watching films.
I like good food.
I like laughing.
(31:48):
What kind of films do you tend to go for?
Is it more sort of romantic comedies or kind of action films?
What do you go for?
Real mixture.
I don't like anything that's too gruesome.
Although I am a fan of Gladiator, I must say.
There's a new one of those coming out.
Yeah, not sure that's going to cut it.
(32:08):
But anyway.
I do love Top Gun.
Top Gun was the original Top Gun was the first date I ever went on with my husband.
Yeah.
So we had to go see Top Gun too.
And I've already watched that several times.
I enjoy that.
I enjoy action.
I do enjoy some action films actually.
enjoy, Chris Hemsworth in Extraction.
(32:28):
That's great.
But I also enjoy things like, you know, the new persuasion film, Downton Abbey.
Downton Abbey.
The number of people I've spoke to, particularly from America.
they love it.
all Downton Abbey or British Bake Off fans.
It's just unbelievably, unbelievable how many.
Yeah, I have to try and catch up on TV series when I'm back in the UK because you can'twatch them, you know, beyond those borders.
(32:54):
So there's a mad rush to catch up.
I catch up.
Yeah.
And you're very well traveled.
So I would imagine you've eaten all sorts of different types of food.
Do you have any particular?
favorites or stand out things that you rarely think, I love that.
Or if you're not in the place that has that food, you sort of have a bit of a hankeringfor that food that you miss.
(33:18):
Yeah.
I think when we've been away a long time, I like to come home and make a chili, but nottoo spicy because I can't do particularly spicy.
But I think I could, I could probably eat things like chicken salad pretty much every dayfor ever and ever.
Roast chicken.
I mean, who doesn't love a roast, right?
Yeah, that's great.
That's wonderful.
So we mentioned your other books and you have written some children's books and I've seensome photos of you on social media wearing stick-on mustaches and all sorts of fun things
(33:50):
like that.
So what can you tell us about those?
Okay well there's actually two collections of children's stories which is about 5,000words per story, six stories in a book.
These are not Jesus stories specifically although you will pick up themes of
race and such like in them because they do have happy endings and that's partly because Ithink children need a lot more happy stories than are currently available to them.
(34:15):
I spent a couple of years working in a school in Wiltshire with Key Stage 2 children whichis aged 7 to 11, junior school for those of us who are from a different era.
And I didn't enjoy some of the books that I saw on the shelves, a lot of dark themes thatI'm not sure I'd have been too excited about.
my children reading.
(34:36):
have four grown and flown fabulous children.
So I started writing them, partly because my eldest daughter was involved in social workand in frontline child protection, which is pretty hectic.
Pretty full on.
And yeah, being 6,000 miles away in Cape Town at time, was just like, what can I do?
(34:58):
can't hug her, I can't take her out, can't.
What can I do?
I know in the end I thought,
I will try and write her a funny story like the ones we used to read together to just giveher a smile and give her something different.
So I wrote a story for her and anyone listening who has children, who is a parent, knowsthat if you do something for one child, you have to do it for every child.
(35:21):
So that then obliged me to write three more stories in a similar kind of tone.
And I had them printed.
online and gave them to them on Christmas Eve and said, you you've all had your own storynow, you can read each other's, know, cut up in bed and do that, which I think they do in
Iceland, don't they?
give each other books on Christmas Eve to read in bed.
(35:43):
And as I looked at it, I thought, you know what, this could actually work as a collectionif I rejig it a bit so the stories are a similar length and I add a few more, we could do
this, this could work and perhaps fill a need.
And I also found working in a school that for some children,
thought of reading an entire book was actually a overwhelming.
(36:05):
It can be quite intimidating.
And then if it takes them a long time, they lose the thread of the story.
So they lose interest.
It just becomes a chore.
And I am a great believer in reading being a pleasure for children.
So short stories seemed a good way forward, really.
So I did that.
And I was very fortunate to find a publisher who was interested, the Conrad Press.
(36:29):
And so The Magnificent Mustache and other stories came out in 2022, I think.
I think I've got that right.
And I began to go into primary schools and take creative writing lessons off the back ofthose stories, which is enormous fun.
I'm doing one in Northern Ireland next week.
(36:51):
And I said, thought, OK, I think there's some more ideas percolating around.
Let's see if we can do that.
And so I wrote another six stories.
which came out under the title Charlie Peaches Pumpkins and Other Stories.
And I always have to emphasize for the Christians in this context, pumpkins are just avegetable.
They are nothing to do with Halloween.
(37:11):
They are not spooky.
There is nothing dark or unpleasant or, you know, unwelcome in these stories.
They are simply fun, silly stories with quirky characters who do silly things.
So Charlie Peaches Pumpkins.
And I wrote that actually with more
of a thought of taking them into schools because the Magnificent Moustache, I just thoughtthis would be a fun book, I hadn't really pursued that.
(37:37):
So it has some different themes like intergenerational relationships, dealing withboredom, recycling, bullying, not in a preachy kind of way, but they're just under the
surface there.
So we can unpack them and talk about them in that situation.
So those are out there, those are available.
(37:58):
You can order them at bookshops or they're available online from the usual Big Badplatform.
And speaking about where to buy your books from, are you on social media?
Can people find you and follow you?
I am very much on So your moustache photos?
Yes, yes.
Even my book now has its own moustache stuck on the front of it.
(38:20):
Yes, yes, I am in all of those places.
I am on Instagram as Jenny Sanders writer.
I'm on threads.
I'm just finding my way there, not enjoying that terribly, but I know Jenny H.
Sanders, Twitter, which isn't Twitter anymore, X at Jenny H.
Sanders.
I write a blog which used to be called Dancing Through Chaos because my life felt quitechaotic and I felt that I had a choice whether I was going to dance through it or, you
(38:47):
know, moan about it to be honest.
But that has changed its name.
It's now called jennysanderswriter.co.uk and you can find things there.
You can find an author page on Goodreads and on Amazon.
And you can contact me through any of those things.
And I will be available as a speaker, church weekends or breakfasts or whatever.
(39:14):
Get in touch.
That'd be great.
Yeah, great.
So yeah, contact Jenny through those ways.
I'll put a link to Jenny's blog in the show notes of this episode so that you can connectwith her as well.
way, if you wish to.
that's great.
So, well, it's been a pleasure, chatting with you this episode.
(39:35):
Learned a lot about you and also about your new book, Polished Arrows.
So thank you for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
I hope to meet some listeners on one of those platforms or through one of the other.
writing forums and things that I do.
That's great.
Thank you so much and thank you as well for listening to this episode of the ChristianBook Blurb podcast.
(39:56):
Don't forget we come out twice a month on the 1st and on the 15th so we will look forwardto welcoming you back soon for another episode of the Christian Book Blurb where I'll be
speaking with another fantastic Christian author all about their books, their life andtheir faith.
We'll see you then.
Goodbye.
(40:17):
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
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