November 1, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode of the Christian Book Blurb, host Matt McChlery interviews author Clive Bowsher about his book 'One: Being United to Jesus Changes Everything.' They discuss the significance of Jesus' 'You Will' sayings, the importance of unity with Christ and among believers, and the deeper meaning of worship. Clive shares insights on intimacy with Jesus, practical steps to live out this unity, and the challenges of obedience. They also discuss Clive's slight obsession with dark chocolate and how he enjoys spending time with his family.
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Get Clive Bowsher's book 'One' from Union Publishing
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Takeaways
- Every believer is one with Christ, Him in them and them in Him.
- The 'You Will' sayings of Jesus reveal fresh perspectives on Christian life.
- Unity with Jesus is foundational for unity among believers.
- Worship is a relational experience, not just a musical one.
- Intimacy with Jesus is essential for understanding His love.
- Living out our faith involves practical expressions of love and service.
- Understanding our vertical relationship with Christ enhances horizontal relationships.
- Obedience flows from a heart captivated by Christ's love.
- Trusting God deeply is crucial in challenging times.
- The heart of the Gospel centres on our union with Christ.
Sound Bites
"Being united to Jesus changes everything." "What have you been saved for?" "Worship extends far beyond music." "Love and being loved is hugely important." "How do I be in his presence?" "Trusting God more deeply is crucial."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest 00:30 Exploring the Book 'One' by Clive Bowsher 03:11 The Significance of Jesus' 'You Will' Sayings 06:12 Understanding Unity with Christ and Among Believers 08:48 The Vine and Branches: A Powerful Metaphor 11:45 Defining Worship Beyond Music 15:07 The Importance of Intimacy with Jesus 17:55 Practical Steps to Live Out Unity with Christ 20:51 Challenges in Obedience and Love for Christ 23:00 Getting to Know the Author: Clive Bowsher 26:49 Future Projects and Closing Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors, hear
about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmccleary.com.
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Christian Book Blurb where we like to encourageyou in your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian authors and
(00:28):
learn about their books, their lives,
and their faith.
Well, thank you so much for joining me on this episode today.
I am your host, Matt McChlery, and on today's show I'm going to be talking aboutconnecting with God today with the author Clive Bowsher Hello, Clive.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:48):
Hello, Matt.
Great to see you today.
Thanks for the invitation.
It's great to have you with us.
And you have recently written a book called One.
Being united to Jesus changes everything.
So could you just give us a very brief, in a nutshell, or maybe in a book blurb orwhatever it is, book cover, what is your book about?
(01:14):
Well, Matt, it's all about how every believer is one with Christ, Him in them and them inHim.
How that union
between Christ and believers is both real and relational, deeply relational, and involvesan astonishing loving fellowship and closeness between Christ and His people, individually
(01:42):
and together.
That's great.
And I've read it and it was a fascinating read.
You build the structure of the book around the nine
you will sayings that Jesus says in John's Gospel, and they said just after the LastSupper and before the resurrection, why are these you will sayings significant for us
(02:10):
today?
that the things in which Jesus describes what life lived in him is like after his crossand resurrection, life that's made possible by his cross and resurrection and the giving
of the Spirit, and that their promises of Jesus to everyone who puts their faith in him, Iguess I think they're important because they
(02:43):
they open up sort of fresh vistas on what it means to be a Christian.
I think quite often, I don't know about you, but the aspects of the gospel that werereally emphasized for me as a young Christian were the Pauline ones.
And some of those emphases that you get in John's gospel were not quite so much to thefore.
(03:08):
And these you will sayings really
really bring those emphases in John's Gospel right to the front.
Right to the front.
And it's also interesting the timing, as it were, of these sayings being between the LastSupper and before the resurrection, almost like, you know, sort of Jesus's final words,
(03:34):
his final instructions to his disciples before he knew he was going to be crucified.
And it's like,
what do I really need you to know?
What do I really need you to get?
This is it.
Listen, here you are, you will do this, you will, you will.
And so for us, I suppose, it's like, you know, we need to sit up and pay attentionbecause, you know, this is important stuff that Jesus was doing.
(04:01):
Absolutely.
mean, Jesus has got the very first leader, so to speak.
of his church gathered there.
And as you say, Matt, you know, it's interesting to reflect on what Jesus regards asabsolutely essential for them to know and focus on.
(04:23):
Yeah.
And of course, one, and also your subtitle, Being United to Jesus, brings this whole ideaof unity, of being
together.
Why is Unity with Jesus something, has it been something you've been looking into for along time?
(04:45):
What fascinates you about it?
I think fundamentally it's so important to me because I think the New Testament portraysthe heart of the Gospel as being this union with Christ.
(05:06):
Quite often we focus on what we've been saved from and it's so important to realise thatjudgment is a real thing.
And Christians through faith in Christ and through faith alone have been saved from that.
But it sort of raises the question, doesn't it?
What have you been saved for?
(05:28):
What have you been saved into?
What is it that God is wanting with his people?
And the answer there just in a nutshell is this union with Christ.
And so the book goes on to...
explore the different aspects of this oneness, this union, through the lens of these nineyou will sayings.
(05:55):
You're right in saying that this oneness, this sort of abiding, this unity with Christ isreally important.
How important is it that we experience or live out this unity that we have, if we think ofit in terms of sort of vertically
with us and Jesus, how important is it also for us to have an understanding of unity sortof more horizontally as in us with other believers as well?
(06:26):
Yeah, that's very important.
And I guess it is particularly important to understand which comes first, or which is thesource, you know.
So I would say it's the vertical union there, as you were describing it, it's what wealready have.
And that already is pretty crucial to grasp, actually, it's what we already have infellowship with Christ, that
(06:54):
that fuels and resources and allows all that really good horizontal stuff to happen in hisbody, in the church.
And I think maybe understanding what that vertical union actually is helps some of thehorizontal stuff that we can struggle with to slot into place, you know?
(07:23):
So unity can actually be quite hard work sometimes, can't it?
Obedience, we can ask, well, what's the motivation there?
Mission, just what's that all about?
And all of these things, I think, can be better understood really usefully by saying,okay, what is it that I enjoy with the Lord?
(07:49):
does that kind of reflect what he is like, what he's all about, what it is that he wants?
And how does that then overflow in these sort of horizontal things that we know are kindof central to the Christian life, but maybe struggle to understand how to live out well
(08:12):
and joyfully.
That's really interesting.
And you mentioned just then
us really understanding this vertical unity with Christ to help us then navigate andunderstand the horizontal unity with other believers.
So in this unity with Christ, in your book one you use the image of Jesus being divine andus as the branches, which of course the Bible uses as well.
(08:42):
Can you explain why this image is so powerful and how it helps us understand the kind ofunity
that we have with him.
Yeah, I what is really great here is that Jesus gives us a very sort of vivid, it's almostpictorial, isn't it?
(09:03):
A vivid picture for understanding oneness with him.
And I don't know, it's quite intuitive, I suppose, to imagine oneself a branch in a vine.
with Jesus as the true vine and each of us a branch in him.
(09:23):
I think people get that quite intuitively.
And then he goes on to, in John 15, link that picture with this me and you, you and melanguage.
So Jesus sort of unpacks the theology, so to speak, using this picture.
(09:48):
of the vine and branches.
And I think it's really quite intuitive and people get that.
You also get that central theme of life coming through, very obviously, in the vine andbranches sort of extended parable, don't you?
It's all about a flourishing vine.
(10:09):
Where does the fruit come from?
And also branches that are not actually connected.
relationally that is, that are not connected to the life of the vine and therefore arebrown, withered and get thrown away.
So yeah, it's a rich, rich picture, I think.
(10:31):
And in the book you guide us through a thought experiment where you define worship in away, but not as a cultural musical preference, but as something
much deeper.
Can you help us understand more of what you think worship should look like?
(10:52):
It's not so much a question of exactly what it should look like, because I would think itwould take different expressions in different settings, but more I think I'd want to ask
Matt, what is at the heart of worship?
What is worship all about?
I know that's what you're asking me really.
(11:13):
And I think where oneness with Christ
me and you, you and me relationship with Jesus helps us to get a better handle on worship.
It tells you immediately it's a two-way thing, it's a deeply relational thing, it's abouta meeting with Christ, a receiving of his love and a returning of it, whether that's in
(11:38):
song or in prayer.
I suppose I think of worship as our side, so to speak.
of this two-way participatory relationship that Christ has brought us into.
And so, you know, it's joyful, it's full of awe, delight, it's genuine, real, it's aboutthe heart, and not just a me and you thing, but also an us and you thing.
(12:15):
So if you were to ask my wife, she would say that one of my pet peeves is that, you know,I tend to say, yeah, it's good to sing about God, that is helpful, but it's definitely
helpful to sing to the Lord as well, and to express that love for Him.
I think I sometimes say, worship is the opportunity to love God back in return.
(12:42):
and loving him back in a variety of ways.
It doesn't have to be for 20 minutes of singing on a Sunday, that's my worship bit.
It kind of extends, doesn't it, far beyond music.
mean, you can worship through music and song, but that's not the only way.
(13:05):
And I think the danger is, isn't it, when we limit it, or we try and
put things in boxes, we can try and put worship in a box.
And then it just becomes this 20 minute thing I do on a Sunday, but the rest of the week,you know, isn't really worship because it's not me singing in church for 20 minutes.
(13:28):
Well, you know, as you were saying, it's loving God back and how does God want us to lovehim back?
How is God calling us as individually or maybe
as a church or a body in a specific community, how is he calling us to love him back?
And it might be in solitude on our own, but it might be manning a food bank or, you know,helping people in need or whatever it is, running a mums and toddlers group, because
(14:01):
that's what God has put on your heart and you're just abugently following and doing what
what he's asking you to do.
I think that's as much worship, personally, as your 20 minutes singing in a church serviceon a Sunday morning.
Yeah, I mean, when Jesus is asked, what is the most important commandment, he says,doesn't he, in Mark 12, for example, the most important is, love the Lord, your God, with
(14:31):
all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength, witheverything that you've got.
And indeed, Matt, that is pretty all-encompassing.
I think that distinction between, I mean, people have different ways of categorizing this,but between gathered and scattered worship is quite helpful.
(14:53):
You know, so on a Sunday morning or whenever it is on Sunday, the body of Christ comingtogether, there's something special about that.
But there's worship, you know, as you...
look after your family as a parent or as you go to work, absolutely.
But loving Him there in what Jesus says, very essential.
(15:16):
That unity is essential, yes.
exactly.
And since union with Christ is that two-way relationship of love, closeness, intimacy withHim, worship is very much what it's all about from our side of the relationship.
Really helpful, thank you.
(15:36):
And why is intimacy with Jesus so important?
people react differently, don't they, to that word intimacy?
Some people go, great, that sounds wonderful.
Other people go, I can't imagine how that would be with God himself, you know?
(15:58):
I think I'd want to say, first of all, probably everybody would agree that love and beingloved is hugely important.
know, kind of, is that the...
the very core of who we are.
And for people maybe who've been a Christian for quite a long time, I think we can be usedto hearing that God loves us.
(16:29):
But then, you know, in certain circumstances, or when we're struggling with certain sinsor certain challenges, we can find it difficult functionally to
to live out of that place of being in the vine and actually being in his love.
(16:50):
It's one thing, isn't it, to sort of believe it with your head, another thing to know itwith your heart.
I mean, I can remember a sort of a season in my life where Jesus really opened my eyes tothe fact that he loved me in a deep way, you know, as I was.
(17:13):
Not that he wanted to sort of leave me as I was, but you know, he fully accepted me.
He loved me and he had a sort of a good future for me.
And...
At that time, I think that was sort of allied with this sense that he drawn so close tome.
(17:33):
I mean, you can't get closer than him in you and you in him.
That's an astonishing sort of closeness, intimacy, if you want to call it that.
I talk about that quite a bit in the book.
Yeah, and that kind of love is life changing.
Yeah, you mentioned just then about
(17:55):
not just understanding it but sort of really getting to know what that means.
I'm quite a practical guy when it comes to faith.
I like learning things but I always ask the question, okay well that's a lovely idea buthow?
How do we do it?
(18:18):
How can we actually implement this in the busy lives we live today?
So have you got any advice for any of our listeners that we've got this idea of unity,we've got lovely pictures of it sort of painted with the vine and everything else.
How do we actually go about living this out?
(18:42):
I'd say that the key to that is probably the word relational or friendship with Christ.
enjoying him in prayer, in sung worship, in communion, some people would call it, I thinkis central.
(19:08):
So before you get maybe to asking the question, what do do here?
Yeah.
And maybe what do I do horizontally, just to go back to an earlier part of theconversation.
It's helpful to ask the question.
(19:30):
How do I be, if you like, in his presence?
Yeah.
Who am I in relation to him and to the father?
And that sort of change of perspective, I think is quite powerful.
Thank you.
And of these nine you will sayings that you sort of deal with in turn throughout the book.
(19:57):
I had to look at this this morning just to to remind you.
Which one do you personally find the most challenging and why?
Do you know, I mean, I thought about this question a little bit earlier on today.
I think generally I find all of the you will sayings encouraging.
(20:19):
So I think the tone of them is one of encouragement.
It's Jesus saying, you know,
Because you put your trust in me, because you have the Spirit, because you're united to mein the vine, all these things are true of you.
And so these sayings sort of set your expectations accurately for the Christian life.
(20:44):
This is possible.
This is what it will be like.
But if there's one that I find, did you say which is the most challenging?
If there's one that I find, I'm not sure if the right word is challenging, but really sortof focuses my attention.
It's the one where Jesus says, if you love me, you will obey my commandments.
(21:08):
I think that's John 14 verse 15.
I'm not sure I find that challenging, but it gets me really thinking about what is thesource
of my obedience as a Christian is supposed to be?
Because we all know, having read the New Testament, even just kind of parts of it, youcan't miss that obedience is pretty key.
(21:33):
But what is the motivation for that?
And Jesus is saying there, in that you will saying, in John 14 verse 15, I think, it'swhen I've captured your heart, it's when you've seen who I am.
I'm in the Father, the Father's in me.
And you've understood my love for you.
(21:55):
That's loved as the Father loves me, Jesus the Son.
When you've been captivated by that, keeping his word, I think, follows more and morebecause you want to.
And so that's a freeing motivation.
I find that one, I find that you were saying particularly in
(22:19):
it that way.
Thank you, thank you Clive.
And we're going to be back just after these short messages and we'll be chatting more withthe author Clive Barsher about his life and faith, so do join us on the other side of
these.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast, you can help keep it on the web.
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
(22:41):
Head over to buymeacoffee.com slash Matt McChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's show notes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian booksand authors.
Welcome back to the Christian Book Blur podcast.
(23:02):
I'm chatting with the author Clive Bowsher and before the break we were talking about hisbook One, Being United to Jesus Changes Everything.
Now in this part of the podcast, Clive, we like to peel back the dust cover, as it were,of the book and find out a bit more about the author behind the pages.
You can ask me hard questions now, aren't you?
(23:25):
Hard questions like, you know, do you like chocolate or coffee?
kind of thing.
Definitely like coffee.
Quite good as well.
Yeah.
So what do you do for fun?
We're quite, we're quite sporty as a family.
Married to Shashton for over 25 years.
(23:45):
Can't quite remember how many years she'll be crossed with me for that.
One child, son.
Alistair who's nearly 14 and going on about 35.
So yeah, Alistair very much into cricket and golf and rugby and all things sporting at theminute, which is quite nice for me because it sort of has me remembering when when I was
(24:10):
into those things at his age.
So yeah, we play quite a lot of sport time in the cricket nets time on the golf coursequite enjoy running as well.
So good.
And
Do you have another job other than writing?
Or is writing books your full-time thing?
Or is it more of a sideline thing?
Writing is not a full-time thing.
(24:32):
I suppose it's part of my job, but not the main part.
I'm the provost of Union School of Theology, which means that I lead the team here at theschool and I teach in New Testament and biblical theology and do a bit of writing.
(24:52):
research as well.
Yeah, really good.
And have you got any favourite things to eat?
Well, we've mentioned tea, we mentioned coffee and chocolate, but have you got anythingparticularly favourite that you really enjoy eating?
wow.
I noticed you mentioned fruit.
(25:12):
is I like fruit.
So fruit, not cake.
Probably to be fair, tea and coffee.
Not either or.
Do you like tea in the morning and coffee in the evening or it doesn't not matter?
Probably the other way around, just to make sure I sleep okay.
To give you a sense of how much I like dark chocolate.
(25:32):
My wife hides it around the house.
So maybe as Advent's coming up, are you going to get a dark chocolate Advent calendar orsomething like that?
Has been known.
What's the Holy Spirit saying to you in your life?
Now that's a more serious question than do you like, do you like chocolate or coffee?
(25:55):
I think over the last year or so, God has been teaching me to, to trust him more deeply,even when things are not panning out in quite the way I'd expected or his purpose is in a,
you know, given situation, a sort of not quite what I thought maybe.
(26:20):
and just trusting these, you know, so true to his words, so faithful, and weaves thingstogether.
And at the same time, I guess, maybe he's been teaching me to focus a little bit more onthe sort of astonishing hope to come and a little bit less on the detail of here and now.
(26:43):
I when you, I mean, for all of us, but in my
in my sort of life of ministry, you can, it's a funny thing, you can get really quitefixed on ministry.
And, and some of the really fundamental stuff you can see a little bit less clearly,oddly.
I've been reading Ephesians lately.
(27:06):
And Paul prays there, doesn't he, towards the start that we'd have our, what does he say,the eyes of our heart enlightened so that we can see this hope, this astonishing hope,
this glorious hope, this rich hope.
but we've been called into.
so yeah, think keep keeping my eyes, keeping our eyes clearly on that helps to navigatesome of the perplexing confusion, you know, of living in a, a broken world.
(27:41):
Yeah.
You mentioned that writing books is part of what you do.
So have you got anything
coming up in the terms of book writing?
Have you got something you're working on at the moment or something that's coming out inthe new year or something like that?
I wish I did have something else coming out in the new year.
I'm not quite, not quite there yet.
(28:03):
But yes, we're working more on union with Christ.
One is very much union with Christ in John, John's Gospel and 1 John, 1 John and also alittle bit Revelation, all those Johannine
works feeding in there.
But I've been looking at union with Christ in Paul, as well and working quite a lot onEphesians, as I just said.
(28:28):
And I think the next thing coming out is a video teaching series that I'm doing on aplatform that that union has launched recently called Union Grow.
And if you want to check that out, it is I think the address is uniongrow.co.
So watch out for enjoying Ephesians.
video teaching series coming out.
(28:51):
That sounds great.
Thank you very much.
And you've mentioned that particular website.
Where can people find you on social media or where can people buy your books from?
I'm on Twitter and Instagram.
If you'd like to buy a book, then please go to Union Publishing's website.
(29:13):
Wonderful.
And I shall put Union Publishing's website address
on the show notes of this episode, so if you'd like to buy a book you can pop over thereand grab yourself a copy.
Brilliant, thank you.
So yeah, well it's been fascinating and a pleasure to chat with you today, Clive, thankyou so much for joining us here on The Christian Book Blurb.
(29:34):
You too, Matt, lovely to be here.
Thank you, and thank you as well for listening to this episode of The Christian BookBlurb.
We have two episodes that come out every month on the 1st and on the 15th.
So it won't be long before I'll be back again with another episode where I'll be chattingwith another author about their books, their life and their faith.
(29:55):
So I look forward to the pleasure of your company again really soon.
Thank you and goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host, Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors, hear
about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmccleary.com.
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Christian Book Blurb where we like to encourageyou in your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing Christian authors and
(00:28):
learn about their books, their lives,
and their faith.
Well, thank you so much for joining me on this episode today.
I am your host, Matt McChlery, and on today's show I'm going to be talking aboutconnecting with God today with the author Clive Bowsher Hello, Clive.
Welcome to the podcast.
(00:48):
Hello, Matt.
Great to see you today.
Thanks for the invitation.
It's great to have you with us.
And you have recently written a book called One.
Being united to Jesus changes everything.
So could you just give us a very brief, in a nutshell, or maybe in a book blurb orwhatever it is, book cover, what is your book about?
(01:14):
Well, Matt, it's all about how every believer is one with Christ, Him in them and them inHim.
How that union
between Christ and believers is both real and relational, deeply relational, and involvesan astonishing loving fellowship and closeness between Christ and His people, individually
(01:42):
and together.
That's great.
And I've read it and it was a fascinating read.
You build the structure of the book around the nine
you will sayings that Jesus says in John's Gospel, and they said just after the LastSupper and before the resurrection, why are these you will sayings significant for us
(02:10):
today?
that the things in which Jesus describes what life lived in him is like after his crossand resurrection, life that's made possible by his cross and resurrection and the giving
of the Spirit, and that their promises of Jesus to everyone who puts their faith in him, Iguess I think they're important because they
(02:43):
they open up sort of fresh vistas on what it means to be a Christian.
I think quite often, I don't know about you, but the aspects of the gospel that werereally emphasized for me as a young Christian were the Pauline ones.
And some of those emphases that you get in John's gospel were not quite so much to thefore.
(03:08):
And these you will sayings really
really bring those emphases in John's Gospel right to the front.
Right to the front.
And it's also interesting the timing, as it were, of these sayings being between the LastSupper and before the resurrection, almost like, you know, sort of Jesus's final words,
(03:34):
his final instructions to his disciples before he knew he was going to be crucified.
And it's like,
what do I really need you to know?
What do I really need you to get?
This is it.
Listen, here you are, you will do this, you will, you will.
And so for us, I suppose, it's like, you know, we need to sit up and pay attentionbecause, you know, this is important stuff that Jesus was doing.
(04:01):
Absolutely.
mean, Jesus has got the very first leader, so to speak.
of his church gathered there.
And as you say, Matt, you know, it's interesting to reflect on what Jesus regards asabsolutely essential for them to know and focus on.
(04:23):
Yeah.
And of course, one, and also your subtitle, Being United to Jesus, brings this whole ideaof unity, of being
together.
Why is Unity with Jesus something, has it been something you've been looking into for along time?
(04:45):
What fascinates you about it?
I think fundamentally it's so important to me because I think the New Testament portraysthe heart of the Gospel as being this union with Christ.
(05:06):
Quite often we focus on what we've been saved from and it's so important to realise thatjudgment is a real thing.
And Christians through faith in Christ and through faith alone have been saved from that.
But it sort of raises the question, doesn't it?
What have you been saved for?
(05:28):
What have you been saved into?
What is it that God is wanting with his people?
And the answer there just in a nutshell is this union with Christ.
And so the book goes on to...
explore the different aspects of this oneness, this union, through the lens of these nineyou will sayings.
(05:55):
You're right in saying that this oneness, this sort of abiding, this unity with Christ isreally important.
How important is it that we experience or live out this unity that we have, if we think ofit in terms of sort of vertically
with us and Jesus, how important is it also for us to have an understanding of unity sortof more horizontally as in us with other believers as well?
(06:26):
Yeah, that's very important.
And I guess it is particularly important to understand which comes first, or which is thesource, you know.
So I would say it's the vertical union there, as you were describing it, it's what wealready have.
And that already is pretty crucial to grasp, actually, it's what we already have infellowship with Christ, that
(06:54):
that fuels and resources and allows all that really good horizontal stuff to happen in hisbody, in the church.
And I think maybe understanding what that vertical union actually is helps some of thehorizontal stuff that we can struggle with to slot into place, you know?
(07:23):
So unity can actually be quite hard work sometimes, can't it?
Obedience, we can ask, well, what's the motivation there?
Mission, just what's that all about?
And all of these things, I think, can be better understood really usefully by saying,okay, what is it that I enjoy with the Lord?
(07:49):
does that kind of reflect what he is like, what he's all about, what it is that he wants?
And how does that then overflow in these sort of horizontal things that we know are kindof central to the Christian life, but maybe struggle to understand how to live out well
(08:12):
and joyfully.
That's really interesting.
And you mentioned just then
us really understanding this vertical unity with Christ to help us then navigate andunderstand the horizontal unity with other believers.
So in this unity with Christ, in your book one you use the image of Jesus being divine andus as the branches, which of course the Bible uses as well.
(08:42):
Can you explain why this image is so powerful and how it helps us understand the kind ofunity
that we have with him.
Yeah, I what is really great here is that Jesus gives us a very sort of vivid, it's almostpictorial, isn't it?
(09:03):
A vivid picture for understanding oneness with him.
And I don't know, it's quite intuitive, I suppose, to imagine oneself a branch in a vine.
with Jesus as the true vine and each of us a branch in him.
(09:23):
I think people get that quite intuitively.
And then he goes on to, in John 15, link that picture with this me and you, you and melanguage.
So Jesus sort of unpacks the theology, so to speak, using this picture.
(09:48):
of the vine and branches.
And I think it's really quite intuitive and people get that.
You also get that central theme of life coming through, very obviously, in the vine andbranches sort of extended parable, don't you?
It's all about a flourishing vine.
(10:09):
Where does the fruit come from?
And also branches that are not actually connected.
relationally that is, that are not connected to the life of the vine and therefore arebrown, withered and get thrown away.
So yeah, it's a rich, rich picture, I think.
(10:31):
And in the book you guide us through a thought experiment where you define worship in away, but not as a cultural musical preference, but as something
much deeper.
Can you help us understand more of what you think worship should look like?
(10:52):
It's not so much a question of exactly what it should look like, because I would think itwould take different expressions in different settings, but more I think I'd want to ask
Matt, what is at the heart of worship?
What is worship all about?
I know that's what you're asking me really.
(11:13):
And I think where oneness with Christ
me and you, you and me relationship with Jesus helps us to get a better handle on worship.
It tells you immediately it's a two-way thing, it's a deeply relational thing, it's abouta meeting with Christ, a receiving of his love and a returning of it, whether that's in
(11:38):
song or in prayer.
I suppose I think of worship as our side, so to speak.
of this two-way participatory relationship that Christ has brought us into.
And so, you know, it's joyful, it's full of awe, delight, it's genuine, real, it's aboutthe heart, and not just a me and you thing, but also an us and you thing.
(12:15):
So if you were to ask my wife, she would say that one of my pet peeves is that, you know,I tend to say, yeah, it's good to sing about God, that is helpful, but it's definitely
helpful to sing to the Lord as well, and to express that love for Him.
I think I sometimes say, worship is the opportunity to love God back in return.
(12:42):
and loving him back in a variety of ways.
It doesn't have to be for 20 minutes of singing on a Sunday, that's my worship bit.
It kind of extends, doesn't it, far beyond music.
mean, you can worship through music and song, but that's not the only way.
(13:05):
And I think the danger is, isn't it, when we limit it, or we try and
put things in boxes, we can try and put worship in a box.
And then it just becomes this 20 minute thing I do on a Sunday, but the rest of the week,you know, isn't really worship because it's not me singing in church for 20 minutes.
(13:28):
Well, you know, as you were saying, it's loving God back and how does God want us to lovehim back?
How is God calling us as individually or maybe
as a church or a body in a specific community, how is he calling us to love him back?
And it might be in solitude on our own, but it might be manning a food bank or, you know,helping people in need or whatever it is, running a mums and toddlers group, because
(14:01):
that's what God has put on your heart and you're just abugently following and doing what
what he's asking you to do.
I think that's as much worship, personally, as your 20 minutes singing in a church serviceon a Sunday morning.
Yeah, I mean, when Jesus is asked, what is the most important commandment, he says,doesn't he, in Mark 12, for example, the most important is, love the Lord, your God, with
(14:31):
all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength, witheverything that you've got.
And indeed, Matt, that is pretty all-encompassing.
I think that distinction between, I mean, people have different ways of categorizing this,but between gathered and scattered worship is quite helpful.
(14:53):
You know, so on a Sunday morning or whenever it is on Sunday, the body of Christ comingtogether, there's something special about that.
But there's worship, you know, as you...
look after your family as a parent or as you go to work, absolutely.
But loving Him there in what Jesus says, very essential.
(15:16):
That unity is essential, yes.
exactly.
And since union with Christ is that two-way relationship of love, closeness, intimacy withHim, worship is very much what it's all about from our side of the relationship.
Really helpful, thank you.
(15:36):
And why is intimacy with Jesus so important?
people react differently, don't they, to that word intimacy?
Some people go, great, that sounds wonderful.
Other people go, I can't imagine how that would be with God himself, you know?
(15:58):
I think I'd want to say, first of all, probably everybody would agree that love and beingloved is hugely important.
know, kind of, is that the...
the very core of who we are.
And for people maybe who've been a Christian for quite a long time, I think we can be usedto hearing that God loves us.
(16:29):
But then, you know, in certain circumstances, or when we're struggling with certain sinsor certain challenges, we can find it difficult functionally to
to live out of that place of being in the vine and actually being in his love.
(16:50):
It's one thing, isn't it, to sort of believe it with your head, another thing to know itwith your heart.
I mean, I can remember a sort of a season in my life where Jesus really opened my eyes tothe fact that he loved me in a deep way, you know, as I was.
(17:13):
Not that he wanted to sort of leave me as I was, but you know, he fully accepted me.
He loved me and he had a sort of a good future for me.
And...
At that time, I think that was sort of allied with this sense that he drawn so close tome.
(17:33):
I mean, you can't get closer than him in you and you in him.
That's an astonishing sort of closeness, intimacy, if you want to call it that.
I talk about that quite a bit in the book.
Yeah, and that kind of love is life changing.
Yeah, you mentioned just then about
(17:55):
not just understanding it but sort of really getting to know what that means.
I'm quite a practical guy when it comes to faith.
I like learning things but I always ask the question, okay well that's a lovely idea buthow?
How do we do it?
(18:18):
How can we actually implement this in the busy lives we live today?
So have you got any advice for any of our listeners that we've got this idea of unity,we've got lovely pictures of it sort of painted with the vine and everything else.
How do we actually go about living this out?
(18:42):
I'd say that the key to that is probably the word relational or friendship with Christ.
enjoying him in prayer, in sung worship, in communion, some people would call it, I thinkis central.
(19:08):
So before you get maybe to asking the question, what do do here?
Yeah.
And maybe what do I do horizontally, just to go back to an earlier part of theconversation.
It's helpful to ask the question.
(19:30):
How do I be, if you like, in his presence?
Yeah.
Who am I in relation to him and to the father?
And that sort of change of perspective, I think is quite powerful.
Thank you.
And of these nine you will sayings that you sort of deal with in turn throughout the book.
(19:57):
I had to look at this this morning just to to remind you.
Which one do you personally find the most challenging and why?
Do you know, I mean, I thought about this question a little bit earlier on today.
I think generally I find all of the you will sayings encouraging.
(20:19):
So I think the tone of them is one of encouragement.
It's Jesus saying, you know,
Because you put your trust in me, because you have the Spirit, because you're united to mein the vine, all these things are true of you.
And so these sayings sort of set your expectations accurately for the Christian life.
(20:44):
This is possible.
This is what it will be like.
But if there's one that I find, did you say which is the most challenging?
If there's one that I find, I'm not sure if the right word is challenging, but really sortof focuses my attention.
It's the one where Jesus says, if you love me, you will obey my commandments.
(21:08):
I think that's John 14 verse 15.
I'm not sure I find that challenging, but it gets me really thinking about what is thesource
of my obedience as a Christian is supposed to be?
Because we all know, having read the New Testament, even just kind of parts of it, youcan't miss that obedience is pretty key.
(21:33):
But what is the motivation for that?
And Jesus is saying there, in that you will saying, in John 14 verse 15, I think, it'swhen I've captured your heart, it's when you've seen who I am.
I'm in the Father, the Father's in me.
And you've understood my love for you.
(21:55):
That's loved as the Father loves me, Jesus the Son.
When you've been captivated by that, keeping his word, I think, follows more and morebecause you want to.
And so that's a freeing motivation.
I find that one, I find that you were saying particularly in
(22:19):
it that way.
Thank you, thank you Clive.
And we're going to be back just after these short messages and we'll be chatting more withthe author Clive Barsher about his life and faith, so do join us on the other side of
these.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast, you can help keep it on the web.
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
(22:41):
Head over to buymeacoffee.com slash Matt McChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's show notes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian booksand authors.
Welcome back to the Christian Book Blur podcast.
(23:02):
I'm chatting with the author Clive Bowsher and before the break we were talking about hisbook One, Being United to Jesus Changes Everything.
Now in this part of the podcast, Clive, we like to peel back the dust cover, as it were,of the book and find out a bit more about the author behind the pages.
You can ask me hard questions now, aren't you?
(23:25):
Hard questions like, you know, do you like chocolate or coffee?
kind of thing.
Definitely like coffee.
Quite good as well.
Yeah.
So what do you do for fun?
We're quite, we're quite sporty as a family.
Married to Shashton for over 25 years.
(23:45):
Can't quite remember how many years she'll be crossed with me for that.
One child, son.
Alistair who's nearly 14 and going on about 35.
So yeah, Alistair very much into cricket and golf and rugby and all things sporting at theminute, which is quite nice for me because it sort of has me remembering when when I was
(24:10):
into those things at his age.
So yeah, we play quite a lot of sport time in the cricket nets time on the golf coursequite enjoy running as well.
So good.
And
Do you have another job other than writing?
Or is writing books your full-time thing?
Or is it more of a sideline thing?
Writing is not a full-time thing.
(24:32):
I suppose it's part of my job, but not the main part.
I'm the provost of Union School of Theology, which means that I lead the team here at theschool and I teach in New Testament and biblical theology and do a bit of writing.
(24:52):
research as well.
Yeah, really good.
And have you got any favourite things to eat?
Well, we've mentioned tea, we mentioned coffee and chocolate, but have you got anythingparticularly favourite that you really enjoy eating?
wow.
I noticed you mentioned fruit.
(25:12):
is I like fruit.
So fruit, not cake.
Probably to be fair, tea and coffee.
Not either or.
Do you like tea in the morning and coffee in the evening or it doesn't not matter?
Probably the other way around, just to make sure I sleep okay.
To give you a sense of how much I like dark chocolate.
(25:32):
My wife hides it around the house.
So maybe as Advent's coming up, are you going to get a dark chocolate Advent calendar orsomething like that?
Has been known.
What's the Holy Spirit saying to you in your life?
Now that's a more serious question than do you like, do you like chocolate or coffee?
(25:55):
I think over the last year or so, God has been teaching me to, to trust him more deeply,even when things are not panning out in quite the way I'd expected or his purpose is in a,
you know, given situation, a sort of not quite what I thought maybe.
(26:20):
and just trusting these, you know, so true to his words, so faithful, and weaves thingstogether.
And at the same time, I guess, maybe he's been teaching me to focus a little bit more onthe sort of astonishing hope to come and a little bit less on the detail of here and now.
(26:43):
I when you, I mean, for all of us, but in my
in my sort of life of ministry, you can, it's a funny thing, you can get really quitefixed on ministry.
And, and some of the really fundamental stuff you can see a little bit less clearly,oddly.
I've been reading Ephesians lately.
(27:06):
And Paul prays there, doesn't he, towards the start that we'd have our, what does he say,the eyes of our heart enlightened so that we can see this hope, this astonishing hope,
this glorious hope, this rich hope.
but we've been called into.
so yeah, think keep keeping my eyes, keeping our eyes clearly on that helps to navigatesome of the perplexing confusion, you know, of living in a, a broken world.
(27:41):
Yeah.
You mentioned that writing books is part of what you do.
So have you got anything
coming up in the terms of book writing?
Have you got something you're working on at the moment or something that's coming out inthe new year or something like that?
I wish I did have something else coming out in the new year.
I'm not quite, not quite there yet.
(28:03):
But yes, we're working more on union with Christ.
One is very much union with Christ in John, John's Gospel and 1 John, 1 John and also alittle bit Revelation, all those Johannine
works feeding in there.
But I've been looking at union with Christ in Paul, as well and working quite a lot onEphesians, as I just said.
(28:28):
And I think the next thing coming out is a video teaching series that I'm doing on aplatform that that union has launched recently called Union Grow.
And if you want to check that out, it is I think the address is uniongrow.co.
So watch out for enjoying Ephesians.
video teaching series coming out.
(28:51):
That sounds great.
Thank you very much.
And you've mentioned that particular website.
Where can people find you on social media or where can people buy your books from?
I'm on Twitter and Instagram.
If you'd like to buy a book, then please go to Union Publishing's website.
(29:13):
Wonderful.
And I shall put Union Publishing's website address
on the show notes of this episode, so if you'd like to buy a book you can pop over thereand grab yourself a copy.
Brilliant, thank you.
So yeah, well it's been fascinating and a pleasure to chat with you today, Clive, thankyou so much for joining us here on The Christian Book Blurb.
(29:34):
You too, Matt, lovely to be here.
Thank you, and thank you as well for listening to this episode of The Christian BookBlurb.
We have two episodes that come out every month on the 1st and on the 15th.
So it won't be long before I'll be back again with another episode where I'll be chattingwith another author about their books, their life and their faith.
(29:55):
So I look forward to the pleasure of your company again really soon.
Thank you and goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host, Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
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