December 15, 2024 • 46 mins
In this episode of Christian Book Blurb, host Matt McChlery engages with author Gordon Giles about the significance of Christmas carols, exploring their historical context, spiritual meanings, and the evolution of Christmas traditions. They discuss the dual nature of Christmas as both a religious and secular celebration, the role of music in enhancing the Christmas experience, and delve into specific carols, including 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing' and 'Oh Holy Night'. The conversation also introduces a modern carol, 'The Camel Carol', highlighting the collaborative process behind its creation. In this conversation, Matt McChlery and Gordon Giles explore the themes of Christmas carols, their meanings, and the joy of the holiday season. They discuss the creative process behind the 'Camel Carol', the significance of the gifts brought by the camels, and the importance of storytelling in carols. Gordon shares his personal Christmas traditions, his love for writing, and his upcoming works, emphasizing the need to reclaim the Christian heritage in music and the joy of community during the festive season.
Links
Help keep this podcast on the web by simply buying me a coffee https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattmcchlery
Sponsor an episode of this podcast Click for Advertising info
Buy a copy of A Calendar of Carols from St Andrews Bookshop
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Visit Gordon Giles on Facebook
Takeaways
- Christmas carols serve as a bridge between secular and spiritual traditions.
- The Advent season is often overlooked in modern Christmas celebrations.
- Music is integral to the Christmas experience, enhancing its meaning.
- Charles Dickens played a significant role in shaping modern Christmas traditions.
- Many popular carols have complex histories and theological significance.
- The evolution of Christmas carols reflects broader cultural changes.
- 'Hark the Herald Angels Sing' is a hymn with deep theological roots.#
- 'Oh Holy Night' is beloved for its emotional and melodic depth.
- The Camel Carol offers a fresh perspective on the Christmas story.
- Carols influence our understanding of the Christmas narrative. The camels in the carol symbolize a journey of understanding.
- Each gift from the camels represents faith, hope, and love.
- Christmas can be both meaningful and fun.
- The significance of Christmas hymns is profound.
- Storytelling in carols helps convey deeper messages.
- The 'Camel Carol' was designed for choral societies.
- Christmas traditions can bring communities together.
- Writing is a passion that contributes to personal growth.
- Hospitality is a core value of the church's mission.
- Social media can be a tool for community engagement.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Christmas Carols 02:52 The Spiritual Dimension of Carols 06:03 The Evolution of Christmas Traditions 08:58 The Role of Music in Christmas 11:48 Exploring Iconic Carols 15:14 The Camel Carol: A Modern Perspective 26:43 The Journey of the Camels 30:10 The Meaning Behind the Gifts 32:38 Exploring the Calendar of Carols 38:11 Christmas Traditions and Personal Favourites 46:40 Upcoming Works and Reflections
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McCleary.
Get a behind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christianauthors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcleary.com.
Hello and a Merry Christmas to you and welcome to this episode of the Christian Book Blurbwhere we like to encourage you in your discipleship one book at a time.
(00:28):
as we meet some amazing Christian authors and learn about their books, their lives andtheir faith.
Thanks for joining me today.
I am your host Matt McCleary and on today's show I'm going to be talking about Christmascarols, very appropriate for the season, with our special guest author Gordon Giles.
(00:50):
Hello Gordon, welcome to the show.
Hello, hello everybody.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
you have written a wonderful new book for this Christmas time called A Calendar of Carolsand it's kind of like, well I see it as an Advent calendar without the chocolate but with
(01:12):
something even better inside.
You take us through a whole variety of different Christmas carols, sort of one day at atime throughout December in the lead up to Christmas.
What inspired you to write it?
It is what it says on the tin, really.
mean, it's interesting how you said it's an Advent Calendar without the chop, that is sortof true.
(01:36):
There is one of the carols, he's called What Sweeter Music.
So there is some sweet music in there and that's a carol by John Rutter, Sir John Rutter,as he now is, bless him.
So it is what it says on the tin in the sense of it is a daily romp.
but also with a quiet spiritual dimension as well through the carols that we know and loveand some carols that we perhaps are not so familiar with but which have really quite deep
(02:05):
spiritual meaning.
The word carol has been used in so many ways and of course not all carols are Christmascarols, there are Easter carols as well, but it's a kind of coverall word isn't it for the
kind of the songs that get sung at Christmas whether that's We Wish You a Christmas or
Heart of the Herald Angels sing, some of which are great hymns, and some of which weprobably wouldn't call We Wish You a Merry Christmas a hymn.
(02:31):
But carol kind of covers it all, isn't it?
It's a kind of cover or term.
But one of the key themes of the book, if you like, the overarching theme, is that duringDecember we are in Advent, and churchgoers know that, but a lot of non-churchgoers don't
(02:51):
know that.
Or if they do know that it is as you say about chocolate, the chocolate calendar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or coffee or tea bags.
It is that people depends how posh you want to get.
Yes, that's right.
Exactly.
You could spend a lot of money on advent calendars these days.
And they are, it's not advent.
It's the run up to Christmas and it culminates on day 24 usually.
(03:13):
And you know,
I remember when I was a kid, it was cardboard and you opened a picture and there was apicture of Jesus in the manger and that was it.
was it.
Whereas now it's all, Advent is supposed to be a sort of penitential season really, butchocolate doesn't really, anyway, I love chocolate, don't get me wrong.
But anyway, so the idea is it sort of combines the idea of the run up to Christmas withAdvent, which is of course what we're doing.
(03:44):
all the time in December, we are hearing Christmas carols.
Classic FM starts its Christmas carols on December the first, and then it kind of reallywinds down after Christmas.
They usually just about make it to New Year.
But know, Christmas for many people stops at the end of December, when really thedetergently speak in the Christmas season actually starts on Christmas Eve and goes all
(04:06):
the way through to February the second.
People don't buy that these days.
That's not how people live through Christmas.
There's curious mix now, isn't there?
It is.
And that's kind of double thing.
And we're speaking two languages at once.
We're speaking the language of the run-up to Christmas and the language of Advent.
And they are different.
(04:30):
Well, your book kind of bridges both camps in a way.
That's the idea.
That's the idea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, good.
All right.
So for me, and I'm sure a lot of other listeners as well, Christmas, it wouldn't beChristmas without music.
I mean, you know, what is Christmas without music?
(04:52):
What is life without music?
What is life without music?
Indeed, indeed.
And in your introduction, you note that the beginnings of Christmas, as we know it today,was an interesting phrase that you used.
What do you mean by this and how did Christmas as we know it actually begin?
(05:14):
Well, again, it's this double thing, isn't it?
Christmas, of course, is the birth of Jesus in a manger in Bethlehem just over 2000 yearsago.
Of course, that's Christmas.
No one would argue with that.
But we do have a lot to thank Mr Charles Dickens for.
(05:36):
Many people may not know that he decided in the 1850s, 40s, that he would try and reviveHarvest.
He wrote an opera about Harvest, which, funnily enough, we don't know because it clearlywasn't much good and it was a complete flop.
He then turned his mind to Christmas and he wrote a book which we've all heard of calledChristmas Carol.
(06:03):
which was published on December the 19th.
I know this because it's my birthday, December the 19th, 1853.
And it was around the same time that the the postage stamp was invented and the firstChristmas card was set.
But it was also the time that some of many of the first Christmas carols were written in agood King Wenceslas and so on.
They date from this sort of time.
(06:23):
many of those carols are kind of they're not fake, but they they hark back.
So Dickens gave us the Christmas as we know it.
There is in fact a film.
the man who invented Christmas, which is about the story, not so much the story of AChristmas Carol with Ebenezer Scrooge and Bob Cratchit, but the story of how it came to be
(06:44):
and how Dickens managed to capture the imagination of a nation and an age and turnedChristmas into a festival of kindness.
Also at that same time, didn't the Christmas tree make an appearance as well round aboutthere?
Yes, that was Prince Albert a couple of years earlier.
(07:06):
He introduced Christmas tree with candles on it.
was a very dangerous thing to do, But that had come from Germany, of course.
So it wasn't new in Germany, but because Prince Albert was German.
So you've got in that kind of 1840s, 1850s period, the arrival of, we might say, Christmasas we know it.
And we still do it.
(07:26):
We hark back to it.
It was almost like this perfect storm, really, in a way.
all these different elements kind of happened around about roughly the same time-ish andthis new thing called Christmas as we celebrate it today kind of was born in a way.
Yes, and of course it was associated with revelry, with eating and drinking, but also ofkindness because reflecting on the poor.
(07:55):
I cooking Wenceslas is a wonderful example.
It's not really a Christmas carol, it's actually a song that invokes people to be kind toone another.
John Mason Neale who wrote it, that was his intention, was to encourage people to think ofothers at Christmas, which we almost take for granted now.
And if you look at the journey of Christmas since then to now, what's left?
(08:22):
It's kind of the goodwill and kindness and think about the homeless that is still verystrong at Christmas time.
when actually the story of the birth of Jesus is perhaps less prominent than it perhapswas.
But we hold all these things together and that's what we do at Christmas.
(08:42):
We hold it all together and we have to speak at least two languages, the secular languageand the spiritual language if you like, the biblical language and the sociological
language.
And it's all in this great melting pot of Christmas.
And I think it's really important as the
as Christians, the church, as believers, not to sort of have this idea of, let's cling onto Christmas and try and keep it spiritual and turn our backs on everything else that's
(09:09):
going on.
Because actually that's a place of engagement.
That's a place of mission.
That's a place of developing spirituality.
And actually Christmas, what other time of year do we hear religious songs sung in ourhigh streets for a month?
Yeah, I was going to say, I find Christmas, people are much more open.
to talking about faith and Jesus, because as you said earlier, Christmas is Jesus beingborn, and people can't really say, well, that's got nothing to do with it.
(09:43):
So it kind of gives you that way in, in a way, to actually start conversations and things.
You can't take Christ out of Christmas.
If you take Christ out of Christmas, you get &S.
You know, he's in there and he's here to stay.
That's what's so good.
(10:06):
I don't think we're going to lose Christmas in the near future.
did.
Christmas was cancelled, wasn't it, a couple of years ago, famously, Covid and all that.
And people got so upset about it.
And I think Christmas is here to stay.
But times change and we as Christians,
We need to go with the flow a bit.
(10:26):
Otherwise we just get left out in the cold.
You're talking about a Christmas carol as being a starting point for sort of the modernday version of Christmas that we all know and love.
There have been so many different versions and adaptations and film versions and TVversions and everything else of this famous story that Dickens originally wrote.
(10:53):
Do you have a particular favorite version of the Christmas Carol?
gosh, I don't spend my life watching the Christmas Carol, but a lot of people do the wrysmile of the Muppets version.
I was going to say that's my favorite version.
Yeah, the Muppets.
Yeah.
Let's come back to your book and talk about a calendar of carols.
(11:16):
And because it looks at
carols in quite some depth and gives some lovely insights and history behind the songsthat we know and love.
I would love to talk about a few of them if we can.
And as today is the 15th of December, that's when this podcast goes live, I would like tolook at day 15, today's actual carol.
(11:41):
And it's got to be one of my favorite carols.
It's called Hark the Herald Angels Sing.
Can you tell us a little bit about the story behind this carol?
Okay, as with any carol, there are always two stories to tell.
And that's what I love about carols.
There's the story of the words and the story of the music.
(12:03):
And it is a kind of marriage.
And often with hymns, the marriage between the music and the words would never have beendreamed of or even approved of sometimes by the
by the people who were involved.
The Lord Father of Mankind is another example.
Both the composer of the music and of the words were dead by the time that hymn gotcreated.
(12:27):
It's extremely likely that neither of would have approved.
Harold is similar.
think Mendelssohn, who wrote the tune, would not have approved.
He actually said that the music was not appropriate for religious context.
music was written for a kind of oratorio all about Gutenberg the printer who was you knowthis great German hero yeah I know who he extols in a cantata so the tune of course which
(13:03):
is called Mendelssohn after him sort of to add insult to injury really and is a a astorming tune and of course it has those top e's for the chorus heart the horror danger
singing you know a lot of people can't get up there
But it is a great, you know, con belto hymn, and it's a hymn.
It's not a carol, it's a hymn.
And it's a hymn because the words were originally, in the start of their journey, were byWesley, of course.
(13:30):
But other people edited them, added to them.
George Whitefield played with them, and Wesley was furious.
He didn't want that to happen.
So what we have, what we sing three verses of,
is actually six versus a four line.
verses effectively, but we've now got eight line verses and a chorus.
(13:52):
Various people have had a hand in it and created what we know and love.
And in one sense, I don't know if I'm a Weasley or Mendelssohn whether I'd be cross ornot.
I mean think they have grounds to be cross because both of them disapproved of what wasbeing done.
On the other hand, this is a...
you can't have Christmas without this carol, can you?
(14:15):
A carol service has to sort of end with it really and you can you know in the organ youget the trumpet stops out or get a brass quartet to join in it's just you know it's a
storming carol and what's really good about it of course is that unlike some of the thingswe sing at Christmas it has really strong theological groundings.
(14:37):
Born that man no more may die it says it all.
It is a wonderful statement
theological virtue really and it began Hark how the welkin rings glory to the King ofKings peace on earth and mercy mild God and sinners reconciled so you can see it where it
(15:01):
comes from the welkin meant the heavens there was a kind of older English word for the theskies the heavens and it's evolved really is a hymn that's evolved but then it got
cemented and it got cemented
you know, 150 years ago or so, if not longer, into something that you can't change it now.
(15:21):
And this is something that we sometimes come across, isn't it?
Is people trying to inclusivize carols or whatever.
They don't like the word men in a carol or something like that.
then somebody changes it.
And then the national press take an interest in things like that, which is also veryinteresting because the national press will take an interest if someone tries to change a
Christmas carol.
(15:41):
Yeah, it's interesting how songs
have kind of been through that sort of transition and people changing it, but now it'skind of fixed.
And if you try and change it today to something slightly else, something different,everyone gets terribly upset.
It's interesting.
And at what point does it become this sort of set in stone?
(16:03):
It's, I don't know.
maybe that's discussion for another podcast.
it is.
it's just, yeah, it's a similar one.
Silent Night is, you know, we sing three verses of Silent Night.
If you look at him books, the version of Silent Night in each one will be slightlydifferent.
Because they're, Joseph Moore, who wrote the words, there were six verses.
(16:23):
And if you think about the tune of Silent Night, which is basically the same as, as whatFranz Gruber wrote in 1818.
had six verses.
It was a lot quicker and it was a bit more lyrical.
But it's a long, it's a long sing, six verses of that.
And the verses, they don't translate that well.
And what we have is most people, the various translators over the years, have created asort of three verse version, either translating, well, not translating each of the verses,
(16:54):
but creating three verses out of six.
And in fact, in the book, what I've done is I've translated the verses.
So you could have a six verse version, but I'm not really recommending anybody sing thesix verses of the Canon Modern Chief because we'd be there all night.
We'd be very silent at night.
We'd all fall asleep.
Speaking of translations slightly altering the text, that brings me to talk about anotherhymn that you have on day 22 in your calendar, which is Holy Night.
(17:27):
And you point out that this carol
lays claim in the UK at least to being the nation's favorite Christmas carol.
And I must admit it is one of my favorites as well.
Why do you think this carol in particular is so popular?
I think it has to be the tune.
(17:48):
And the tune is just amazing.
I've I've accompanied singers singing it so I played it on the piano as it were.
And
when you realize how well constructed it is.
Adolf Adam, who was an opera composer, he really knew what he was doing.
(18:10):
It's a bit like an operatic aria and many of the recordings that people know and love aresung by opera singers.
It has just an amazing arch of melody.
And of course, it's more popular in the English translation than in the French.
not least because the French one is really quite hard-hitting about sin and atonement andjudgment and punishment and so on the English version is not a literal translation and it
(18:40):
has that lovely kind of like with the animals kneeling in prayer it has that Thomas HardySt Francis at the crib type approach of you know all nature is coming to to worship the
the King of Kings who has been born for us.
But it doesn't labor on the sin side.
(19:05):
Dwight, who wrote the words in English, who sort of translated it.
But again, it's not a translation.
It's more of an English version.
The words are a bit saccharine at times.
And the tune is too.
And people love that.
And it is an amazing song.
(19:25):
So it doesn't surprise me at all.
I Silent Night is the other one that people love, which also is very, very lyrical and...
Well, it just has that kind of emotional feel to it that gives people comfort.
But you know, Holy Nights, there is that rise of the melody, the climax in it.
(19:46):
It's just perfectly pitched.
And something else you pointed out in the book is that unlike a lot of carols, this one,yes, it's not as hard hitting as the original version.
But it's still pretty in your face when it says fall on your knees.
(20:07):
It's really sort of commanding a response from those singing it and listening to it.
Fall on your knees and worship rather than, you know, let's just think about prettythoughts.
There's a challenge to it still, which I find really interesting as well.
There is an instruction, as you say, you know.
(20:29):
The babe of Bethlehem is the son of God is God incarnate get down on your knees and noticeHowever, maybe perhaps in a bit controversial, I don't think that's why it's popular No, I
think people perhaps don't always notice That I mean but but it is as you say it is thereand this is a this is a thing with all Christmas carols and in fact all hymns We are so
(20:57):
good at singing
hymns, worship songs, carols, whatever, without really paying attention to what we'resinging.
And there's a kind of concept in liturgy, Lex credendi, lex orandi, or the other wayaround, lex orandi, lex credendi.
What they say, they believe.
What they believe is what they say.
if you...
(21:18):
Do we believe what we're singing?
But if we keep singing it, we end up believing it.
And this is why hymns and carols are so important and so influential.
and so powerful because the story of Christmas that people know comes more from away in amanger than it does from Luke chapter two.
(21:38):
And that could be a problem if you see what I mean because I mean this is precisely whyFanny Alexander wrote once in Royal David's City was to teach the tenets of the faith.
comes from her hymns for little children.
She wrote in 1843 I think, top of my head.
(21:59):
12 hymns, each one relating to point of the Creed.
So all things bright and beautiful is I believe in God the Father, creator of the world.
There is a green hill far away is Jesus crucified under Pontius Pilate.
Once in Rodeo City is the Incarnation born of the Virgin Mary.
But of course what she did, and again we're talking 200 years ago, we're talking about thebeginnings of Christmas as we know it, as we said earlier.
(22:27):
She introduces, know, all Christian children almost be mild, obedient, good as he.
There's a Victorian thing going on there.
The other thing that's going on in that carol is infant mortality.
Because half of children born at that time did not live.
so parents, their white-robed children, were their children that they had lost inchildbirth or soon after.
(22:54):
And there's a story that
that Alexander wrote about children visiting the graves of their lost friends.
It's very poignant, very moving.
And when you sing that hymn, when you read those verses and sing them about the childrengoing to heaven, this was real.
(23:16):
This is not the world we live in now.
But this is what she was trying to do in all those songs, particularly once in MaldaveCity, was to teach the story of Christmas to little children.
And we're all children at Christmas in a way, aren't we?
Yeah, yeah.
It brings out the child in a lot of us, yes.
(23:36):
There are 25 carols in your book, A Calendar of Carols.
And there's one that I think we must look at in this, when we have this discussion.
now and it's called the camel carol.
Now I hadn't come across it before and then as I read it a bit further I was like, okay, Isee, because it's one that you have written.
(24:04):
where did the inspiration come from for this more modern carol?
Well, I'm very lucky really.
I have a very good friend for a few years now who lives
within walking distance from where I do in Rochester and Kent.
And he's a very fine organist, a very fine composer.
(24:24):
He's actually the composer of a thing called Funny Song, which is a widely, massivelydownloaded, silly song that people have used for their dog and cat videos on TikTok and
what have you.
it's a global sensation, this funny song.
I met him, he played the organ at a service I did.
(24:46):
we both heard of each other.
And then I got on a train and there he was and we got chatting and we've been friends eversince.
And he writes music and he writes music in different ways for different kind of purposes.
He writes film music, he writes music for adverts, he did the Samsung advert for one ofthe foldable phones not long ago.
(25:07):
But he also writes, he's a serious composer, he writes anthems and so on.
So we have written anthems together and texts and
We just hit it off and we understand each other.
He himself has written a few lyrics for some of the things he's done.
So he really cares about words and poetry and how the words work and the meanings.
And I'm a musician as well.
(25:28):
So I understand when we talk about, will that word actually work on that note?
It's a kind of slightly geeky conversation that we can have.
And we write together.
So it's not a case of me writing some words and him writing some music.
that sets them, it's more a case of he has an idea for a tune and then I write some wordsand then it develops together.
(25:52):
Because we live so close to each other, we can meet up and do these things together, whichis a great joy, I have to say.
And we've written, we wrote the camel carol.
We've also written a thing called the funny snowman.
You might want to look that up.
That's a kind of Ginger Rogers type sort of dance number.
So we're doing a whole range of things.
(26:13):
But the camel carol.
was written last year, we thought we'd do a carol and I said well I tell you what no noone has ever done a carol from the perspective of the camels.
We've got Christmas carols that talk about the ox and the ass and the donkey and so on butno one's ever the camels you know they've been ignored they're the Cinderella's of the
(26:37):
Christmas story in a way.
So I just thought we could do this and and then
the camels they have this kind of strange gate, know, they lurch from side to side sotherefore you don't want a four square rhythm you need an unbalanced one which is why we
settled on seven beats in a bar three plus four and so on so it kind of lurches along andthen I just had this idea about it was that they've got the hump I know well exactly and
(27:06):
the camels have got the hump haven't they?
They literally have got the hump and they've only got one hump they've got two because theMiddle East they'd only have one
and I just thought we could just write have three camels and they sort of personified andof course you neatly avoid the the question about were there three wise men or three magi
or three kings or whatever you want to call them and that was all origins fault in thetheologian who said that because there were three gifts there must have been three gift
(27:32):
bearers but it doesn't say that in the Bible but there were three gifts there was goldfrankincense and myrrh and and
Therefore each camel can be carrying the gift and the person that brings it as well.
they, you know, camels are notoriously
miserable and you don't get spat at by a camel.
(27:54):
So I got these miserable camels trudging across the desert.
Where are we going?
What are we doing?
What's all this all about?
know, kind of thing.
We got the hump.
But then of course they arrive with their three gifts and the three gifts are gold,frankincense and myrrh.
But the other thing I did is I connected each gift to faith, hope and love.
Because in one sense these are the gifts that Jesus brings us.
(28:14):
And in fact, Tommy and I wrote another carol called Onward We Go, which is a lovelychildren's carol.
I say that because the music is lovely, which is all about children going to Bethlehem toshow Jesus their love.
And then when they get there, Jesus shows them his love.
And it is this kind of, not reversal, but we get back more than we give.
(28:35):
A bit like in the bleak midwinter, what can I give him?
I give him myself, but actually we receive far more than we give.
And that's a Christmas.
idea isn't it, it is in giving that we receive, as Sir Francis, well except it's not SirFrancis, he didn't actually write that prayer, but anyway that's not the story, but you
know it is in giving that we receive and the camels they are converted on the journey ifyou like, they get it, they go through the valley of death as in Psalm 23 with the myrrh
(29:06):
which is representative of death, they go through the valley of death and they arrive andthen they kind of get it, they understand.
And the reason we wrote it is we wrote it for sort of choral societies.
This is not something that congregations are going to sing.
It's in four parts.
It's in seven beats in a bar.
(29:27):
It's not easy to sing, but it's not too hard.
And various choral societies and choirs have done it.
And we like to think and people tell us that choirs love singing it because it'smeaningful, but it's a bit silly as well.
and it brings a smile.
And actually last year we did it, I if I want to tell people this, we did it, theCathedral Choir in Rochester sang it and Tommy and I got inside the pantomime camel
(29:57):
costume and walked down the aisle in this costume.
So the camel walked in and we lurched down the aisle together.
We do have the costume if anyone wants to borrow it, get in touch.
So it just created a, it was new, was different, was lighthearted, but with a message.
I think to some extent that sums up what Christmas is for the church these days.
(30:25):
We've got to be serious minded about what we're saying and what it means and thesignificance for the world.
But actually you can have fun with Christmas.
Why not?
That's okay.
people eat chocolate and they eat too much food and the average person puts on the weightof a newborn baby at Christmas, apparently eight pounds.
(30:48):
It's what people do.
We can't stop it.
If you can't beat them, join them.
But actually then try and say, actually there's something meaningful going on here.
And you might like to think about it.
Another great thing you've got in your book, right in the back of your book, A Calendar ofCarols, you've got all the carols in the book.
along with a YouTube link so people can actually go and listen.
(31:13):
So if you are intrigued by the camel carol that we've just been talking about, you canwatch that on YouTube and have a listen.
And I'm sure it's also available on all sorts of other musical platforms out there likeSpotify and iTunes and all the others as well.
So do go and check out hopefully your new favorite Christmas carol or song maybe thisyear, something for you to discover the camel.
(31:38):
Carol.
Now the other thing that's in the back of the book, if I might just get a little place isis there's also a little thing I did which which people might like for the Christmas Carol
services.
It's just something a bit different is the telling of the Christmas story.
I've called it the story of glory and it's just in the back as a kind of appendix really.
The story of glory is the telling of the Christmas story where every single word exceptone use of the word and is is a line or a phrase.
(32:08):
from a Christmas carol.
Wow, well done.
must have been quite something to put together.
It's, you know, it kind of, think it works, but it's again, it's a bit of fun, but ittells a story.
And I know people have Christmas carol services and concerts and so on.
And it just might, might, might be helpful to people as a different way of telling thestory that tells us the story.
(32:31):
you see what I mean.
And people can play kind of game that where's that line from?
Or recognize that phrase.
That's good.
And of course 25 days in December leading up to Christmas Day itself, which means therewas only space for 25 carols.
(32:51):
And there are a lot of carols out there.
And there might have been an extra one that you snuck in to the back, maybe 26.
But what made you choose these carols?
why these ones?
Are these your particular favorites or were these like the most interesting withinteresting backstories?
(33:13):
What helped you decide which carols made it into your calendar?
was going to say yes.
All of the above.
Some carols, what, okay, some carols have to be in there.
We wanted to put in the top 10, the ones that
(33:34):
people think of the top ten because people say why it's not in there and so I hope we gotthis right the what the your favorite carol should be in there whether your favorite carol
is a Holy Night or Silent Night or Heartland Herald or Once in Royal you know the the bighitters are in there
Some carols have wonderful stories that go behind them.
(33:59):
Some carols have stories that go behind them that are not true, like the story of SilentNight.
It's just nonsense, it's just made up.
Other carols have, you know, the story of O Holy Night is quite interesting, as readerswill discover about the stories of the two people that wrote it.
I wanted to include one by Sir John Rutter.
(34:23):
know and wanted to include.
So I went for What's Sweet of Music partly because it has a very interesting sort ofbackstory to it, how the text came about and the historical context of it.
So it's partly about telling stories, for example I saw three ships, which may not be acarol that everyone thinks of as their favourite or whatever, but it's quite well known.
(34:50):
The connection with the Wise Men and Cologne Cathedral and the tombs of the Wise Men, it'sfascinating.
I must say, reading that one, I saw it and was like, yeah, this one, I'm not too surebecause it kind of alludes to Christmas, it's not, you anyway, but as I was reading it,
and especially the bit where you're saying how, because it's a little bit vague, you canactually read all sorts of other interpretations and things into it.
(35:20):
And then I started getting interested.
was like, yeah, actually, you know, there might be something, there might be something tothis.
So yeah, that's helped give me a fresh insight into that song.
thank you.
Well, thank you.
That's great.
That's the kind of intention.
So, I mean, there isn't a carol that I don't like.
(35:44):
But, you know, what's not to like, as they say.
Yeah.
It is a kind of best hits book, that's the kind of intention.
And let me say it wasn't my idea to write it.
The publishers suggested doing it.
I've written on carols before and I write on hymns a lot.
(36:05):
And hymns is my world really and I do like carols and I do find this thing about carolstelling a story and revealing a theology that people sometimes gloss over.
So I think it's about rediscovering it.
about classical music actually as well.
Classic FM and radio, you know, playing requiems and masses all the time.
(36:28):
No one ever explains what a requiem is.
Foray, the anniversary of Foray's death is this year.
In fact, from the time we're speaking it was only a couple of days ago.
But, you know, Foray's Requiem is very, very popular.
But how many people know what a requiem is?
And how many people have a sense of what Foray did with that requiem in terms of the wayhe set the text and the bits he left out and so on?
(36:52):
I think that's all fascinating.
And I think we need to reclaim the Christian heritage of some of our music and our hymns.
We need to reclaim, because it's a wonderful teaching aid and a wonderful spiritual gift.
Wonderful.
That's great.
We'll be back chatting with Gordon about his faith and his life after this.
But why don't you why don't we get a discussion going?
(37:14):
We're talking about favorite Christmas carols.
So if there's a comment section on the app or or the the platform that you're listening tothis on why don't you comment in there as to what your favorite Christmas carol is and
then we'll see what everyone else says or of course you can hop over onto Facebook andsearch for the Christian Bookblur podcast and put your comments on there as well.
(37:38):
Let's see whose favorite Christmas carols
match other people.
So that'll be really good fun.
So do join us after the break.
We'll be chatting a little bit more with Gordon Giles.
(38:11):
to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Bookbler podcast.
I am chatting all things Christmas carols with the author Gordon Gales, and we've beenchatting about his book, A Calendar of Carols, just before this break.
But on this part of the podcast, Gordon, we like to get to know the author a little bitbetter.
(38:36):
so let's ask, well, I don't know how revealing these questions are, but they're a bit offun anyway.
Let's start with Christmas.
Why not?
Seeing as it's a special Christmas episode, what are some of your favourite things to doat Christmas time?
Go to church.
(38:58):
You've ticked that one off.
I say that not as one of the many people who perhaps only goes at Christmas.
I go to church a lot at Christmas.
I need a lot of services.
I sing a lot of carols, but I love it.
I have to say, because it's not just the content of Christmas, if you like.
(39:21):
It's the fact there's a lot of people.
I work in a cathedral and Christmas Eve, the queuing, I think last year we actually had toturn people away, which is very sad in its own kind of way.
But when a thousand people get singing...
of a herald.
It guidance your heart, it does.
(39:42):
It certainly does.
So I love the worship at Christmas because the devil may have the best tunes, butChristmas has some of the best hymns.
That's good.
And I like to ask people about some of their favorite things, but I'm going to put aChristmas slant on it this time.
(40:03):
If we talked about Advent calendars at the very beginning of this episode.
And we said how some of them can be all weird and wonderful.
You can get coffee ones and you can get also, I know, knitting ones and all sorts ofdifferent kinds of advent calendars these days.
If you didn't have to worry about how much it costs, what kind of advent calendar mightyou like to have this year?
(40:33):
You can just say to they're just full of money.
I don't want money.
But you what I mean?
You just sowed a thought in my head, you could just have an Advent calendar with a £50note in each day, couldn't you?
That would be quite fun.
But I think that would be very boring.
But think a lot of people would like one of those.
(40:54):
But course, money is the root of all evil, of course.
As is probably every other Advent calendar, because...
There aren't many advent calendars that don't make you fat.
I did have a coffee one once.
That was quite interesting.
Okay.
It was quite fun.
Every day we opened the day and there was a coffee pod, you know, for the old coffeemachine type thing.
And you didn't know what you were getting.
(41:15):
it was, it was very, very annoying when it came out and it was decaffeinated coffee.
Because that's the one thing we do not want is a decaffeinated Christmas.
see, want the want the full fat, full, full Jesus Christmas.
We don't want to take, take anything out.
but, the coffee's quite fat.
There are, there is a port advent calendar, which one would get?
(41:38):
have a glass of that's good to say.
What about whiskey?
Port?
Okay.
Yeah.
I think whiskey every night or every morning.
Gosh, presumably have to be an evening advent calendar, wouldn't it?
Yeah, probably.
But I think a whiskey one could be a bit dangerous, couldn't it?
Especially especially since Christmas is kind of my month on as it were.
Well, yeah little glass of port, you know that could work quite well and of course you canhave white port and pink port and Ruby port and vintage port.
(42:03):
All sorts.
Yeah.
Yes, you could.
Port would be quite fine.
Miniature, know, but some but of course, you know, that's some communion wine is basicallyport as well, isn't it?
So.
When you're not
busy in the cathedral, what do you do for fun and relaxation?
(42:25):
I write books.
It's your therapy, is it?
Well, to some extent, mean, I do love writing and researching.
That is, I mean, people say, how do you find time to do this?
said, well, actually, I really enjoy doing it.
I love, you know, learning.
And I think being a lifelong learner, think is something we're all called to do.
(42:50):
Well, my wife and I have two Shih Tzu dogs, Leo and Lexi.
They are great bundles of joy.
They're lazy, of course, and if it's raining they don't want to go out and things likethat.
they're not really proper dogs because they'll sit on your lap and they don't go forproper walks.
(43:13):
But they are lovely companions and we do love our dogs.
I don't like to go walking, I like to just get out and about really.
But what's interesting about being a residential canon in a cathedral is the wordresidential.
I don't get out much.
My job is to be here because we're a cathedral that are open to the public, we're free ofcharge, we're very committed to not charging people.
(43:44):
All sorts of people come in during the day.
They come in for different reasons.
They come to admire the architecture.
come to hear the music maybe.
They come to visit the shop maybe.
They come to go to the cafe and have a cup of coffee and cake in the crypt, which I highlyrecommend.
Or they come in because they are searching for something or they come in because they'rein distress or need.
(44:05):
And the role of a Residentry Canon, and there are basically two of us here who are sort offull-time Residentry Canons.
of the Dean as well, is to be on hand, to be on call, sort of almost half the time.
And so I can be summoned over to talk to somebody, which of course is a huge privilege.
(44:27):
People in their hour of need just sort of wander in and say help to some extent.
we have chaplains as well who help, so we are providing a real pastoral thing there.
But it does mean that apart from my day off,
I can't leave really.
It's a busy life in a cathedral.
We do lots of things here that we don't just have out of worship, but we have three ofthose a day at least.
(44:54):
But we are doing events and concerts and we have a light show, have a jazz festival, wehave lots of things going on which bring people in.
And this is part of our mission.
We have a light show and when people come in and it's amazing kind of sun and air typeexperience and then people come back at Christmas and these are doorways in and we talk to
(45:19):
many people who come in and say, well, I didn't know I was allowed in here or I've neverbeen in here before.
I've lived in, we're in Medway in Kent, lived in Medway all my life and have never been inhere.
And we think, well, this is the cold face now.
It's about inviting people in who feel this is not, they'd never been welcomed before.
(45:39):
and we're a Benedictine foundation which takes us all the way back to the sixth century.
hospitality and welcome is a key aspect of Benedictine spirituality.
And we just say, come in, you're welcome.
You don't have to pay.
We have to pay the bills in other ways, of course.
Running a cathedral is not a cheap occupation.
(46:02):
Employed staff and all that.
But we're very committed that people can just come in and meet.
meet God on their terms to some extent.
They can just come in and be quiet.
That's wonderful and I hope Christmas is a really blessed time for you guys at RochesterCathedral as well.
(46:22):
Just talking about you having this love of writing and it's something you do for fun in away, have you got anything coming up soon that you can tell us about?
Is there a little book or something on the boil in the background?
The Calendar Carols is not the only book I've got coming out this Christmas.
(46:47):
There is a book about hymns called Sing to the Lord published by the RSCM and that comesout as we sit here now.
It's not quite out but I think it's going to be out for Christmas.
It's not a Christmas book.
It has one or two carols in it and there's no overlap with this book I have to say.
(47:07):
I was very keen.
not to have an overlap.
It takes you through the whole year really and that's got 30 reflections in it and it'salso got the music, you know the printed music, you can put the book on the piano and play
it if you want, reflections on hymns.
So I've got another book like that coming out at the same time which is a coincidencereally because this other book has actually been 20 years in the making.
(47:37):
It's a collection of things I've been writing over a long time, distilled for thispurpose.
So there's another book coming out next week.
But actually, at the moment, I'm just confining myself to being the editor of NewDaylight, for which I also contribute some reflections.
(48:00):
New Daylight is a daily reading magazine, I suppose.
Just sort of 385 words a day, that's what we say to our authors.
And Matt, you have written for it, you know.
Yes, I do.
And if you write 390, I will frown at you.
(48:21):
So it's a little Bible passage and a reflection.
And this has been going for decades.
It's very popular and much loved, I think.
And we have about 40 authors.
I it's maybe that many, but there's a lot of authors who contribute maybe once a year, butit all adds up to people writing for a week or a fortnight on a Bible chunk, if you like,
(48:51):
or sometimes a theme.
And I enjoy doing that, I enjoy editing it.
I it's very good for my own personal development and growth.
I I think people often overlook that, but as an editor and as a writer, it's a learning.
I learned so much from what other people write.
That's great.
Thanks, Gordon.
Where can we find you on social media?
(49:14):
Are you on social media and things like that?
And where can we buy your books?
well, all good books have us, that's what they say, isn't it?
I mean, you can buy them online.
In one sense, the book published by the RSCM would be available on the RSCM website.
and the books published by the Bible Reading Fellowship will be available on the BibleReading Fellowship website.
(49:38):
It probably is my duty and my joy to point you in those directions.
But of course, other booksellers are available and sometimes the pricing is different,let's say as well.
Let the reader understand.
they are out there, they are available.
think Calendar Cairns is also available on Kindle, if you like to read on it.
(50:02):
something electronic where the battery doesn't fail.
yes, so they are available.
Social media is an interesting one.
I've been on Twitter for a long time.
I'm RevGJG but I was never on Facebook.
I was avoided Facebook until I came to Roster Cathedral and it was during Covid.
(50:24):
I moved there during Covid.
It's a very strange time to leave a parish in North London after 17 years and not saygoodbye.
That was very odd.
No farewell, none of that.
And arrived here in Rochester, where I am now, and the Cathedral was closed.
Nobody was allowed in.
It a very strange thing.
(50:46):
A week after I got here, we did open the doors and people started coming back.
And so we've had then probably about two years of strangeness.
initially, I then realized that the Cathedral was basically operating online.
We were doing live streaming services, we started doing that, and we became a testingcenter.
(51:07):
We did all kinds of interesting things and hopefully helpful things, but everything wasonline.
So I joined Facebook.
This is why I'm telling this story.
I thought I've got to join Facebook.
So I did, but I joined not in my own name, but as Canon Chancellor, which is my job title.
So friends, if you want to be my friend.
(51:30):
You've got to find Canon Chancellor, you will not find me under my name.
I may yet regret this, but nevertheless, I do Facebook in the name of my role and I do soon behalf of the cathedral.
But of course, I sometimes do my own thing as well.
(51:51):
So that's the very long winded answer to what should have been a simple question.
like stories, great.
Yeah, wonderful.
That's great.
Well, Gordon, it's been a real pleasure chatting to you today, all about your book andcarols and music and things.
It's been great.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Not at all.
wish everybody a happy Christmas.
(52:11):
Yes, and a Merry Christmas to you, Gordon, as well.
And thank you as well to our listeners for joining us today and for listening to thispodcast.
Don't forget that it comes out twice a month on the 1st and the 15th.
So we'll be back on New Year's
day with a brand new episode where I'll be chatting with another Christian author allabout their books, their lives and their faith.
(52:35):
Thanks for joining me and I look forward to the pleasure of your company again reallysoon.
Thank you and goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McCleary.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McCleary.
Get a behind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christianauthors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcleary.com.
Hello and a Merry Christmas to you and welcome to this episode of the Christian Book Blurbwhere we like to encourage you in your discipleship one book at a time.
(00:28):
as we meet some amazing Christian authors and learn about their books, their lives andtheir faith.
Thanks for joining me today.
I am your host Matt McCleary and on today's show I'm going to be talking about Christmascarols, very appropriate for the season, with our special guest author Gordon Giles.
(00:50):
Hello Gordon, welcome to the show.
Hello, hello everybody.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
you have written a wonderful new book for this Christmas time called A Calendar of Carolsand it's kind of like, well I see it as an Advent calendar without the chocolate but with
(01:12):
something even better inside.
You take us through a whole variety of different Christmas carols, sort of one day at atime throughout December in the lead up to Christmas.
What inspired you to write it?
It is what it says on the tin, really.
mean, it's interesting how you said it's an Advent Calendar without the chop, that is sortof true.
(01:36):
There is one of the carols, he's called What Sweeter Music.
So there is some sweet music in there and that's a carol by John Rutter, Sir John Rutter,as he now is, bless him.
So it is what it says on the tin in the sense of it is a daily romp.
but also with a quiet spiritual dimension as well through the carols that we know and loveand some carols that we perhaps are not so familiar with but which have really quite deep
(02:05):
spiritual meaning.
The word carol has been used in so many ways and of course not all carols are Christmascarols, there are Easter carols as well, but it's a kind of coverall word isn't it for the
kind of the songs that get sung at Christmas whether that's We Wish You a Christmas or
Heart of the Herald Angels sing, some of which are great hymns, and some of which weprobably wouldn't call We Wish You a Merry Christmas a hymn.
(02:31):
But carol kind of covers it all, isn't it?
It's a kind of cover or term.
But one of the key themes of the book, if you like, the overarching theme, is that duringDecember we are in Advent, and churchgoers know that, but a lot of non-churchgoers don't
(02:51):
know that.
Or if they do know that it is as you say about chocolate, the chocolate calendar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or coffee or tea bags.
It is that people depends how posh you want to get.
Yes, that's right.
Exactly.
You could spend a lot of money on advent calendars these days.
And they are, it's not advent.
It's the run up to Christmas and it culminates on day 24 usually.
(03:13):
And you know,
I remember when I was a kid, it was cardboard and you opened a picture and there was apicture of Jesus in the manger and that was it.
was it.
Whereas now it's all, Advent is supposed to be a sort of penitential season really, butchocolate doesn't really, anyway, I love chocolate, don't get me wrong.
But anyway, so the idea is it sort of combines the idea of the run up to Christmas withAdvent, which is of course what we're doing.
(03:44):
all the time in December, we are hearing Christmas carols.
Classic FM starts its Christmas carols on December the first, and then it kind of reallywinds down after Christmas.
They usually just about make it to New Year.
But know, Christmas for many people stops at the end of December, when really thedetergently speak in the Christmas season actually starts on Christmas Eve and goes all
(04:06):
the way through to February the second.
People don't buy that these days.
That's not how people live through Christmas.
There's curious mix now, isn't there?
It is.
And that's kind of double thing.
And we're speaking two languages at once.
We're speaking the language of the run-up to Christmas and the language of Advent.
And they are different.
(04:30):
Well, your book kind of bridges both camps in a way.
That's the idea.
That's the idea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, good.
All right.
So for me, and I'm sure a lot of other listeners as well, Christmas, it wouldn't beChristmas without music.
I mean, you know, what is Christmas without music?
(04:52):
What is life without music?
What is life without music?
Indeed, indeed.
And in your introduction, you note that the beginnings of Christmas, as we know it today,was an interesting phrase that you used.
What do you mean by this and how did Christmas as we know it actually begin?
(05:14):
Well, again, it's this double thing, isn't it?
Christmas, of course, is the birth of Jesus in a manger in Bethlehem just over 2000 yearsago.
Of course, that's Christmas.
No one would argue with that.
But we do have a lot to thank Mr Charles Dickens for.
(05:36):
Many people may not know that he decided in the 1850s, 40s, that he would try and reviveHarvest.
He wrote an opera about Harvest, which, funnily enough, we don't know because it clearlywasn't much good and it was a complete flop.
He then turned his mind to Christmas and he wrote a book which we've all heard of calledChristmas Carol.
(06:03):
which was published on December the 19th.
I know this because it's my birthday, December the 19th, 1853.
And it was around the same time that the the postage stamp was invented and the firstChristmas card was set.
But it was also the time that some of many of the first Christmas carols were written in agood King Wenceslas and so on.
They date from this sort of time.
(06:23):
many of those carols are kind of they're not fake, but they they hark back.
So Dickens gave us the Christmas as we know it.
There is in fact a film.
the man who invented Christmas, which is about the story, not so much the story of AChristmas Carol with Ebenezer Scrooge and Bob Cratchit, but the story of how it came to be
(06:44):
and how Dickens managed to capture the imagination of a nation and an age and turnedChristmas into a festival of kindness.
Also at that same time, didn't the Christmas tree make an appearance as well round aboutthere?
Yes, that was Prince Albert a couple of years earlier.
(07:06):
He introduced Christmas tree with candles on it.
was a very dangerous thing to do, But that had come from Germany, of course.
So it wasn't new in Germany, but because Prince Albert was German.
So you've got in that kind of 1840s, 1850s period, the arrival of, we might say, Christmasas we know it.
And we still do it.
(07:26):
We hark back to it.
It was almost like this perfect storm, really, in a way.
all these different elements kind of happened around about roughly the same time-ish andthis new thing called Christmas as we celebrate it today kind of was born in a way.
Yes, and of course it was associated with revelry, with eating and drinking, but also ofkindness because reflecting on the poor.
(07:55):
I cooking Wenceslas is a wonderful example.
It's not really a Christmas carol, it's actually a song that invokes people to be kind toone another.
John Mason Neale who wrote it, that was his intention, was to encourage people to think ofothers at Christmas, which we almost take for granted now.
And if you look at the journey of Christmas since then to now, what's left?
(08:22):
It's kind of the goodwill and kindness and think about the homeless that is still verystrong at Christmas time.
when actually the story of the birth of Jesus is perhaps less prominent than it perhapswas.
But we hold all these things together and that's what we do at Christmas.
(08:42):
We hold it all together and we have to speak at least two languages, the secular languageand the spiritual language if you like, the biblical language and the sociological
language.
And it's all in this great melting pot of Christmas.
And I think it's really important as the
as Christians, the church, as believers, not to sort of have this idea of, let's cling onto Christmas and try and keep it spiritual and turn our backs on everything else that's
(09:09):
going on.
Because actually that's a place of engagement.
That's a place of mission.
That's a place of developing spirituality.
And actually Christmas, what other time of year do we hear religious songs sung in ourhigh streets for a month?
Yeah, I was going to say, I find Christmas, people are much more open.
to talking about faith and Jesus, because as you said earlier, Christmas is Jesus beingborn, and people can't really say, well, that's got nothing to do with it.
(09:43):
So it kind of gives you that way in, in a way, to actually start conversations and things.
You can't take Christ out of Christmas.
If you take Christ out of Christmas, you get &S.
You know, he's in there and he's here to stay.
That's what's so good.
(10:06):
I don't think we're going to lose Christmas in the near future.
did.
Christmas was cancelled, wasn't it, a couple of years ago, famously, Covid and all that.
And people got so upset about it.
And I think Christmas is here to stay.
But times change and we as Christians,
We need to go with the flow a bit.
(10:26):
Otherwise we just get left out in the cold.
You're talking about a Christmas carol as being a starting point for sort of the modernday version of Christmas that we all know and love.
There have been so many different versions and adaptations and film versions and TVversions and everything else of this famous story that Dickens originally wrote.
(10:53):
Do you have a particular favorite version of the Christmas Carol?
gosh, I don't spend my life watching the Christmas Carol, but a lot of people do the wrysmile of the Muppets version.
I was going to say that's my favorite version.
Yeah, the Muppets.
Yeah.
Let's come back to your book and talk about a calendar of carols.
(11:16):
And because it looks at
carols in quite some depth and gives some lovely insights and history behind the songsthat we know and love.
I would love to talk about a few of them if we can.
And as today is the 15th of December, that's when this podcast goes live, I would like tolook at day 15, today's actual carol.
(11:41):
And it's got to be one of my favorite carols.
It's called Hark the Herald Angels Sing.
Can you tell us a little bit about the story behind this carol?
Okay, as with any carol, there are always two stories to tell.
And that's what I love about carols.
There's the story of the words and the story of the music.
(12:03):
And it is a kind of marriage.
And often with hymns, the marriage between the music and the words would never have beendreamed of or even approved of sometimes by the
by the people who were involved.
The Lord Father of Mankind is another example.
Both the composer of the music and of the words were dead by the time that hymn gotcreated.
(12:27):
It's extremely likely that neither of would have approved.
Harold is similar.
think Mendelssohn, who wrote the tune, would not have approved.
He actually said that the music was not appropriate for religious context.
music was written for a kind of oratorio all about Gutenberg the printer who was you knowthis great German hero yeah I know who he extols in a cantata so the tune of course which
(13:03):
is called Mendelssohn after him sort of to add insult to injury really and is a a astorming tune and of course it has those top e's for the chorus heart the horror danger
singing you know a lot of people can't get up there
But it is a great, you know, con belto hymn, and it's a hymn.
It's not a carol, it's a hymn.
And it's a hymn because the words were originally, in the start of their journey, were byWesley, of course.
(13:30):
But other people edited them, added to them.
George Whitefield played with them, and Wesley was furious.
He didn't want that to happen.
So what we have, what we sing three verses of,
is actually six versus a four line.
verses effectively, but we've now got eight line verses and a chorus.
(13:52):
Various people have had a hand in it and created what we know and love.
And in one sense, I don't know if I'm a Weasley or Mendelssohn whether I'd be cross ornot.
I mean think they have grounds to be cross because both of them disapproved of what wasbeing done.
On the other hand, this is a...
you can't have Christmas without this carol, can you?
(14:15):
A carol service has to sort of end with it really and you can you know in the organ youget the trumpet stops out or get a brass quartet to join in it's just you know it's a
storming carol and what's really good about it of course is that unlike some of the thingswe sing at Christmas it has really strong theological groundings.
(14:37):
Born that man no more may die it says it all.
It is a wonderful statement
theological virtue really and it began Hark how the welkin rings glory to the King ofKings peace on earth and mercy mild God and sinners reconciled so you can see it where it
(15:01):
comes from the welkin meant the heavens there was a kind of older English word for the theskies the heavens and it's evolved really is a hymn that's evolved but then it got
cemented and it got cemented
you know, 150 years ago or so, if not longer, into something that you can't change it now.
(15:21):
And this is something that we sometimes come across, isn't it?
Is people trying to inclusivize carols or whatever.
They don't like the word men in a carol or something like that.
then somebody changes it.
And then the national press take an interest in things like that, which is also veryinteresting because the national press will take an interest if someone tries to change a
Christmas carol.
(15:41):
Yeah, it's interesting how songs
have kind of been through that sort of transition and people changing it, but now it'skind of fixed.
And if you try and change it today to something slightly else, something different,everyone gets terribly upset.
It's interesting.
And at what point does it become this sort of set in stone?
(16:03):
It's, I don't know.
maybe that's discussion for another podcast.
it is.
it's just, yeah, it's a similar one.
Silent Night is, you know, we sing three verses of Silent Night.
If you look at him books, the version of Silent Night in each one will be slightlydifferent.
Because they're, Joseph Moore, who wrote the words, there were six verses.
(16:23):
And if you think about the tune of Silent Night, which is basically the same as, as whatFranz Gruber wrote in 1818.
had six verses.
It was a lot quicker and it was a bit more lyrical.
But it's a long, it's a long sing, six verses of that.
And the verses, they don't translate that well.
And what we have is most people, the various translators over the years, have created asort of three verse version, either translating, well, not translating each of the verses,
(16:54):
but creating three verses out of six.
And in fact, in the book, what I've done is I've translated the verses.
So you could have a six verse version, but I'm not really recommending anybody sing thesix verses of the Canon Modern Chief because we'd be there all night.
We'd be very silent at night.
We'd all fall asleep.
Speaking of translations slightly altering the text, that brings me to talk about anotherhymn that you have on day 22 in your calendar, which is Holy Night.
(17:27):
And you point out that this carol
lays claim in the UK at least to being the nation's favorite Christmas carol.
And I must admit it is one of my favorites as well.
Why do you think this carol in particular is so popular?
I think it has to be the tune.
(17:48):
And the tune is just amazing.
I've I've accompanied singers singing it so I played it on the piano as it were.
And
when you realize how well constructed it is.
Adolf Adam, who was an opera composer, he really knew what he was doing.
(18:10):
It's a bit like an operatic aria and many of the recordings that people know and love aresung by opera singers.
It has just an amazing arch of melody.
And of course, it's more popular in the English translation than in the French.
not least because the French one is really quite hard-hitting about sin and atonement andjudgment and punishment and so on the English version is not a literal translation and it
(18:40):
has that lovely kind of like with the animals kneeling in prayer it has that Thomas HardySt Francis at the crib type approach of you know all nature is coming to to worship the
the King of Kings who has been born for us.
But it doesn't labor on the sin side.
(19:05):
Dwight, who wrote the words in English, who sort of translated it.
But again, it's not a translation.
It's more of an English version.
The words are a bit saccharine at times.
And the tune is too.
And people love that.
And it is an amazing song.
(19:25):
So it doesn't surprise me at all.
I Silent Night is the other one that people love, which also is very, very lyrical and...
Well, it just has that kind of emotional feel to it that gives people comfort.
But you know, Holy Nights, there is that rise of the melody, the climax in it.
(19:46):
It's just perfectly pitched.
And something else you pointed out in the book is that unlike a lot of carols, this one,yes, it's not as hard hitting as the original version.
But it's still pretty in your face when it says fall on your knees.
(20:07):
It's really sort of commanding a response from those singing it and listening to it.
Fall on your knees and worship rather than, you know, let's just think about prettythoughts.
There's a challenge to it still, which I find really interesting as well.
There is an instruction, as you say, you know.
(20:29):
The babe of Bethlehem is the son of God is God incarnate get down on your knees and noticeHowever, maybe perhaps in a bit controversial, I don't think that's why it's popular No, I
think people perhaps don't always notice That I mean but but it is as you say it is thereand this is a this is a thing with all Christmas carols and in fact all hymns We are so
(20:57):
good at singing
hymns, worship songs, carols, whatever, without really paying attention to what we'resinging.
And there's a kind of concept in liturgy, Lex credendi, lex orandi, or the other wayaround, lex orandi, lex credendi.
What they say, they believe.
What they believe is what they say.
if you...
(21:18):
Do we believe what we're singing?
But if we keep singing it, we end up believing it.
And this is why hymns and carols are so important and so influential.
and so powerful because the story of Christmas that people know comes more from away in amanger than it does from Luke chapter two.
(21:38):
And that could be a problem if you see what I mean because I mean this is precisely whyFanny Alexander wrote once in Royal David's City was to teach the tenets of the faith.
comes from her hymns for little children.
She wrote in 1843 I think, top of my head.
(21:59):
12 hymns, each one relating to point of the Creed.
So all things bright and beautiful is I believe in God the Father, creator of the world.
There is a green hill far away is Jesus crucified under Pontius Pilate.
Once in Rodeo City is the Incarnation born of the Virgin Mary.
But of course what she did, and again we're talking 200 years ago, we're talking about thebeginnings of Christmas as we know it, as we said earlier.
(22:27):
She introduces, know, all Christian children almost be mild, obedient, good as he.
There's a Victorian thing going on there.
The other thing that's going on in that carol is infant mortality.
Because half of children born at that time did not live.
so parents, their white-robed children, were their children that they had lost inchildbirth or soon after.
(22:54):
And there's a story that
that Alexander wrote about children visiting the graves of their lost friends.
It's very poignant, very moving.
And when you sing that hymn, when you read those verses and sing them about the childrengoing to heaven, this was real.
(23:16):
This is not the world we live in now.
But this is what she was trying to do in all those songs, particularly once in MaldaveCity, was to teach the story of Christmas to little children.
And we're all children at Christmas in a way, aren't we?
Yeah, yeah.
It brings out the child in a lot of us, yes.
(23:36):
There are 25 carols in your book, A Calendar of Carols.
And there's one that I think we must look at in this, when we have this discussion.
now and it's called the camel carol.
Now I hadn't come across it before and then as I read it a bit further I was like, okay, Isee, because it's one that you have written.
(24:04):
where did the inspiration come from for this more modern carol?
Well, I'm very lucky really.
I have a very good friend for a few years now who lives
within walking distance from where I do in Rochester and Kent.
And he's a very fine organist, a very fine composer.
(24:24):
He's actually the composer of a thing called Funny Song, which is a widely, massivelydownloaded, silly song that people have used for their dog and cat videos on TikTok and
what have you.
it's a global sensation, this funny song.
I met him, he played the organ at a service I did.
(24:46):
we both heard of each other.
And then I got on a train and there he was and we got chatting and we've been friends eversince.
And he writes music and he writes music in different ways for different kind of purposes.
He writes film music, he writes music for adverts, he did the Samsung advert for one ofthe foldable phones not long ago.
(25:07):
But he also writes, he's a serious composer, he writes anthems and so on.
So we have written anthems together and texts and
We just hit it off and we understand each other.
He himself has written a few lyrics for some of the things he's done.
So he really cares about words and poetry and how the words work and the meanings.
And I'm a musician as well.
(25:28):
So I understand when we talk about, will that word actually work on that note?
It's a kind of slightly geeky conversation that we can have.
And we write together.
So it's not a case of me writing some words and him writing some music.
that sets them, it's more a case of he has an idea for a tune and then I write some wordsand then it develops together.
(25:52):
Because we live so close to each other, we can meet up and do these things together, whichis a great joy, I have to say.
And we've written, we wrote the camel carol.
We've also written a thing called the funny snowman.
You might want to look that up.
That's a kind of Ginger Rogers type sort of dance number.
So we're doing a whole range of things.
(26:13):
But the camel carol.
was written last year, we thought we'd do a carol and I said well I tell you what no noone has ever done a carol from the perspective of the camels.
We've got Christmas carols that talk about the ox and the ass and the donkey and so on butno one's ever the camels you know they've been ignored they're the Cinderella's of the
(26:37):
Christmas story in a way.
So I just thought we could do this and and then
the camels they have this kind of strange gate, know, they lurch from side to side sotherefore you don't want a four square rhythm you need an unbalanced one which is why we
settled on seven beats in a bar three plus four and so on so it kind of lurches along andthen I just had this idea about it was that they've got the hump I know well exactly and
(27:06):
the camels have got the hump haven't they?
They literally have got the hump and they've only got one hump they've got two because theMiddle East they'd only have one
and I just thought we could just write have three camels and they sort of personified andof course you neatly avoid the the question about were there three wise men or three magi
or three kings or whatever you want to call them and that was all origins fault in thetheologian who said that because there were three gifts there must have been three gift
(27:32):
bearers but it doesn't say that in the Bible but there were three gifts there was goldfrankincense and myrrh and and
Therefore each camel can be carrying the gift and the person that brings it as well.
they, you know, camels are notoriously
miserable and you don't get spat at by a camel.
(27:54):
So I got these miserable camels trudging across the desert.
Where are we going?
What are we doing?
What's all this all about?
know, kind of thing.
We got the hump.
But then of course they arrive with their three gifts and the three gifts are gold,frankincense and myrrh.
But the other thing I did is I connected each gift to faith, hope and love.
Because in one sense these are the gifts that Jesus brings us.
(28:14):
And in fact, Tommy and I wrote another carol called Onward We Go, which is a lovelychildren's carol.
I say that because the music is lovely, which is all about children going to Bethlehem toshow Jesus their love.
And then when they get there, Jesus shows them his love.
And it is this kind of, not reversal, but we get back more than we give.
(28:35):
A bit like in the bleak midwinter, what can I give him?
I give him myself, but actually we receive far more than we give.
And that's a Christmas.
idea isn't it, it is in giving that we receive, as Sir Francis, well except it's not SirFrancis, he didn't actually write that prayer, but anyway that's not the story, but you
know it is in giving that we receive and the camels they are converted on the journey ifyou like, they get it, they go through the valley of death as in Psalm 23 with the myrrh
(29:06):
which is representative of death, they go through the valley of death and they arrive andthen they kind of get it, they understand.
And the reason we wrote it is we wrote it for sort of choral societies.
This is not something that congregations are going to sing.
It's in four parts.
It's in seven beats in a bar.
(29:27):
It's not easy to sing, but it's not too hard.
And various choral societies and choirs have done it.
And we like to think and people tell us that choirs love singing it because it'smeaningful, but it's a bit silly as well.
and it brings a smile.
And actually last year we did it, I if I want to tell people this, we did it, theCathedral Choir in Rochester sang it and Tommy and I got inside the pantomime camel
(29:57):
costume and walked down the aisle in this costume.
So the camel walked in and we lurched down the aisle together.
We do have the costume if anyone wants to borrow it, get in touch.
So it just created a, it was new, was different, was lighthearted, but with a message.
I think to some extent that sums up what Christmas is for the church these days.
(30:25):
We've got to be serious minded about what we're saying and what it means and thesignificance for the world.
But actually you can have fun with Christmas.
Why not?
That's okay.
people eat chocolate and they eat too much food and the average person puts on the weightof a newborn baby at Christmas, apparently eight pounds.
(30:48):
It's what people do.
We can't stop it.
If you can't beat them, join them.
But actually then try and say, actually there's something meaningful going on here.
And you might like to think about it.
Another great thing you've got in your book, right in the back of your book, A Calendar ofCarols, you've got all the carols in the book.
along with a YouTube link so people can actually go and listen.
(31:13):
So if you are intrigued by the camel carol that we've just been talking about, you canwatch that on YouTube and have a listen.
And I'm sure it's also available on all sorts of other musical platforms out there likeSpotify and iTunes and all the others as well.
So do go and check out hopefully your new favorite Christmas carol or song maybe thisyear, something for you to discover the camel.
(31:38):
Carol.
Now the other thing that's in the back of the book, if I might just get a little place isis there's also a little thing I did which which people might like for the Christmas Carol
services.
It's just something a bit different is the telling of the Christmas story.
I've called it the story of glory and it's just in the back as a kind of appendix really.
The story of glory is the telling of the Christmas story where every single word exceptone use of the word and is is a line or a phrase.
(32:08):
from a Christmas carol.
Wow, well done.
must have been quite something to put together.
It's, you know, it kind of, think it works, but it's again, it's a bit of fun, but ittells a story.
And I know people have Christmas carol services and concerts and so on.
And it just might, might, might be helpful to people as a different way of telling thestory that tells us the story.
(32:31):
you see what I mean.
And people can play kind of game that where's that line from?
Or recognize that phrase.
That's good.
And of course 25 days in December leading up to Christmas Day itself, which means therewas only space for 25 carols.
(32:51):
And there are a lot of carols out there.
And there might have been an extra one that you snuck in to the back, maybe 26.
But what made you choose these carols?
why these ones?
Are these your particular favorites or were these like the most interesting withinteresting backstories?
(33:13):
What helped you decide which carols made it into your calendar?
was going to say yes.
All of the above.
Some carols, what, okay, some carols have to be in there.
We wanted to put in the top 10, the ones that
(33:34):
people think of the top ten because people say why it's not in there and so I hope we gotthis right the what the your favorite carol should be in there whether your favorite carol
is a Holy Night or Silent Night or Heartland Herald or Once in Royal you know the the bighitters are in there
Some carols have wonderful stories that go behind them.
(33:59):
Some carols have stories that go behind them that are not true, like the story of SilentNight.
It's just nonsense, it's just made up.
Other carols have, you know, the story of O Holy Night is quite interesting, as readerswill discover about the stories of the two people that wrote it.
I wanted to include one by Sir John Rutter.
(34:23):
know and wanted to include.
So I went for What's Sweet of Music partly because it has a very interesting sort ofbackstory to it, how the text came about and the historical context of it.
So it's partly about telling stories, for example I saw three ships, which may not be acarol that everyone thinks of as their favourite or whatever, but it's quite well known.
(34:50):
The connection with the Wise Men and Cologne Cathedral and the tombs of the Wise Men, it'sfascinating.
I must say, reading that one, I saw it and was like, yeah, this one, I'm not too surebecause it kind of alludes to Christmas, it's not, you anyway, but as I was reading it,
and especially the bit where you're saying how, because it's a little bit vague, you canactually read all sorts of other interpretations and things into it.
(35:20):
And then I started getting interested.
was like, yeah, actually, you know, there might be something, there might be something tothis.
So yeah, that's helped give me a fresh insight into that song.
thank you.
Well, thank you.
That's great.
That's the kind of intention.
So, I mean, there isn't a carol that I don't like.
(35:44):
But, you know, what's not to like, as they say.
Yeah.
It is a kind of best hits book, that's the kind of intention.
And let me say it wasn't my idea to write it.
The publishers suggested doing it.
I've written on carols before and I write on hymns a lot.
(36:05):
And hymns is my world really and I do like carols and I do find this thing about carolstelling a story and revealing a theology that people sometimes gloss over.
So I think it's about rediscovering it.
about classical music actually as well.
Classic FM and radio, you know, playing requiems and masses all the time.
(36:28):
No one ever explains what a requiem is.
Foray, the anniversary of Foray's death is this year.
In fact, from the time we're speaking it was only a couple of days ago.
But, you know, Foray's Requiem is very, very popular.
But how many people know what a requiem is?
And how many people have a sense of what Foray did with that requiem in terms of the wayhe set the text and the bits he left out and so on?
(36:52):
I think that's all fascinating.
And I think we need to reclaim the Christian heritage of some of our music and our hymns.
We need to reclaim, because it's a wonderful teaching aid and a wonderful spiritual gift.
Wonderful.
That's great.
We'll be back chatting with Gordon about his faith and his life after this.
But why don't you why don't we get a discussion going?
(37:14):
We're talking about favorite Christmas carols.
So if there's a comment section on the app or or the the platform that you're listening tothis on why don't you comment in there as to what your favorite Christmas carol is and
then we'll see what everyone else says or of course you can hop over onto Facebook andsearch for the Christian Bookblur podcast and put your comments on there as well.
(37:38):
Let's see whose favorite Christmas carols
match other people.
So that'll be really good fun.
So do join us after the break.
We'll be chatting a little bit more with Gordon Giles.
(38:11):
to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Bookbler podcast.
I am chatting all things Christmas carols with the author Gordon Gales, and we've beenchatting about his book, A Calendar of Carols, just before this break.
But on this part of the podcast, Gordon, we like to get to know the author a little bitbetter.
(38:36):
so let's ask, well, I don't know how revealing these questions are, but they're a bit offun anyway.
Let's start with Christmas.
Why not?
Seeing as it's a special Christmas episode, what are some of your favourite things to doat Christmas time?
Go to church.
(38:58):
You've ticked that one off.
I say that not as one of the many people who perhaps only goes at Christmas.
I go to church a lot at Christmas.
I need a lot of services.
I sing a lot of carols, but I love it.
I have to say, because it's not just the content of Christmas, if you like.
(39:21):
It's the fact there's a lot of people.
I work in a cathedral and Christmas Eve, the queuing, I think last year we actually had toturn people away, which is very sad in its own kind of way.
But when a thousand people get singing...
of a herald.
It guidance your heart, it does.
(39:42):
It certainly does.
So I love the worship at Christmas because the devil may have the best tunes, butChristmas has some of the best hymns.
That's good.
And I like to ask people about some of their favorite things, but I'm going to put aChristmas slant on it this time.
(40:03):
If we talked about Advent calendars at the very beginning of this episode.
And we said how some of them can be all weird and wonderful.
You can get coffee ones and you can get also, I know, knitting ones and all sorts ofdifferent kinds of advent calendars these days.
If you didn't have to worry about how much it costs, what kind of advent calendar mightyou like to have this year?
(40:33):
You can just say to they're just full of money.
I don't want money.
But you what I mean?
You just sowed a thought in my head, you could just have an Advent calendar with a £50note in each day, couldn't you?
That would be quite fun.
But I think that would be very boring.
But think a lot of people would like one of those.
(40:54):
But course, money is the root of all evil, of course.
As is probably every other Advent calendar, because...
There aren't many advent calendars that don't make you fat.
I did have a coffee one once.
That was quite interesting.
Okay.
It was quite fun.
Every day we opened the day and there was a coffee pod, you know, for the old coffeemachine type thing.
And you didn't know what you were getting.
(41:15):
it was, it was very, very annoying when it came out and it was decaffeinated coffee.
Because that's the one thing we do not want is a decaffeinated Christmas.
see, want the want the full fat, full, full Jesus Christmas.
We don't want to take, take anything out.
but, the coffee's quite fat.
There are, there is a port advent calendar, which one would get?
(41:38):
have a glass of that's good to say.
What about whiskey?
Port?
Okay.
Yeah.
I think whiskey every night or every morning.
Gosh, presumably have to be an evening advent calendar, wouldn't it?
Yeah, probably.
But I think a whiskey one could be a bit dangerous, couldn't it?
Especially especially since Christmas is kind of my month on as it were.
Well, yeah little glass of port, you know that could work quite well and of course you canhave white port and pink port and Ruby port and vintage port.
(42:03):
All sorts.
Yeah.
Yes, you could.
Port would be quite fine.
Miniature, know, but some but of course, you know, that's some communion wine is basicallyport as well, isn't it?
So.
When you're not
busy in the cathedral, what do you do for fun and relaxation?
(42:25):
I write books.
It's your therapy, is it?
Well, to some extent, mean, I do love writing and researching.
That is, I mean, people say, how do you find time to do this?
said, well, actually, I really enjoy doing it.
I love, you know, learning.
And I think being a lifelong learner, think is something we're all called to do.
(42:50):
Well, my wife and I have two Shih Tzu dogs, Leo and Lexi.
They are great bundles of joy.
They're lazy, of course, and if it's raining they don't want to go out and things likethat.
they're not really proper dogs because they'll sit on your lap and they don't go forproper walks.
(43:13):
But they are lovely companions and we do love our dogs.
I don't like to go walking, I like to just get out and about really.
But what's interesting about being a residential canon in a cathedral is the wordresidential.
I don't get out much.
My job is to be here because we're a cathedral that are open to the public, we're free ofcharge, we're very committed to not charging people.
(43:44):
All sorts of people come in during the day.
They come in for different reasons.
They come to admire the architecture.
come to hear the music maybe.
They come to visit the shop maybe.
They come to go to the cafe and have a cup of coffee and cake in the crypt, which I highlyrecommend.
Or they come in because they are searching for something or they come in because they'rein distress or need.
(44:05):
And the role of a Residentry Canon, and there are basically two of us here who are sort offull-time Residentry Canons.
of the Dean as well, is to be on hand, to be on call, sort of almost half the time.
And so I can be summoned over to talk to somebody, which of course is a huge privilege.
(44:27):
People in their hour of need just sort of wander in and say help to some extent.
we have chaplains as well who help, so we are providing a real pastoral thing there.
But it does mean that apart from my day off,
I can't leave really.
It's a busy life in a cathedral.
We do lots of things here that we don't just have out of worship, but we have three ofthose a day at least.
(44:54):
But we are doing events and concerts and we have a light show, have a jazz festival, wehave lots of things going on which bring people in.
And this is part of our mission.
We have a light show and when people come in and it's amazing kind of sun and air typeexperience and then people come back at Christmas and these are doorways in and we talk to
(45:19):
many people who come in and say, well, I didn't know I was allowed in here or I've neverbeen in here before.
I've lived in, we're in Medway in Kent, lived in Medway all my life and have never been inhere.
And we think, well, this is the cold face now.
It's about inviting people in who feel this is not, they'd never been welcomed before.
(45:39):
and we're a Benedictine foundation which takes us all the way back to the sixth century.
hospitality and welcome is a key aspect of Benedictine spirituality.
And we just say, come in, you're welcome.
You don't have to pay.
We have to pay the bills in other ways, of course.
Running a cathedral is not a cheap occupation.
(46:02):
Employed staff and all that.
But we're very committed that people can just come in and meet.
meet God on their terms to some extent.
They can just come in and be quiet.
That's wonderful and I hope Christmas is a really blessed time for you guys at RochesterCathedral as well.
(46:22):
Just talking about you having this love of writing and it's something you do for fun in away, have you got anything coming up soon that you can tell us about?
Is there a little book or something on the boil in the background?
The Calendar Carols is not the only book I've got coming out this Christmas.
(46:47):
There is a book about hymns called Sing to the Lord published by the RSCM and that comesout as we sit here now.
It's not quite out but I think it's going to be out for Christmas.
It's not a Christmas book.
It has one or two carols in it and there's no overlap with this book I have to say.
(47:07):
I was very keen.
not to have an overlap.
It takes you through the whole year really and that's got 30 reflections in it and it'salso got the music, you know the printed music, you can put the book on the piano and play
it if you want, reflections on hymns.
So I've got another book like that coming out at the same time which is a coincidencereally because this other book has actually been 20 years in the making.
(47:37):
It's a collection of things I've been writing over a long time, distilled for thispurpose.
So there's another book coming out next week.
But actually, at the moment, I'm just confining myself to being the editor of NewDaylight, for which I also contribute some reflections.
(48:00):
New Daylight is a daily reading magazine, I suppose.
Just sort of 385 words a day, that's what we say to our authors.
And Matt, you have written for it, you know.
Yes, I do.
And if you write 390, I will frown at you.
(48:21):
So it's a little Bible passage and a reflection.
And this has been going for decades.
It's very popular and much loved, I think.
And we have about 40 authors.
I it's maybe that many, but there's a lot of authors who contribute maybe once a year, butit all adds up to people writing for a week or a fortnight on a Bible chunk, if you like,
(48:51):
or sometimes a theme.
And I enjoy doing that, I enjoy editing it.
I it's very good for my own personal development and growth.
I I think people often overlook that, but as an editor and as a writer, it's a learning.
I learned so much from what other people write.
That's great.
Thanks, Gordon.
Where can we find you on social media?
(49:14):
Are you on social media and things like that?
And where can we buy your books?
well, all good books have us, that's what they say, isn't it?
I mean, you can buy them online.
In one sense, the book published by the RSCM would be available on the RSCM website.
and the books published by the Bible Reading Fellowship will be available on the BibleReading Fellowship website.
(49:38):
It probably is my duty and my joy to point you in those directions.
But of course, other booksellers are available and sometimes the pricing is different,let's say as well.
Let the reader understand.
they are out there, they are available.
think Calendar Cairns is also available on Kindle, if you like to read on it.
(50:02):
something electronic where the battery doesn't fail.
yes, so they are available.
Social media is an interesting one.
I've been on Twitter for a long time.
I'm RevGJG but I was never on Facebook.
I was avoided Facebook until I came to Roster Cathedral and it was during Covid.
(50:24):
I moved there during Covid.
It's a very strange time to leave a parish in North London after 17 years and not saygoodbye.
That was very odd.
No farewell, none of that.
And arrived here in Rochester, where I am now, and the Cathedral was closed.
Nobody was allowed in.
It a very strange thing.
(50:46):
A week after I got here, we did open the doors and people started coming back.
And so we've had then probably about two years of strangeness.
initially, I then realized that the Cathedral was basically operating online.
We were doing live streaming services, we started doing that, and we became a testingcenter.
(51:07):
We did all kinds of interesting things and hopefully helpful things, but everything wasonline.
So I joined Facebook.
This is why I'm telling this story.
I thought I've got to join Facebook.
So I did, but I joined not in my own name, but as Canon Chancellor, which is my job title.
So friends, if you want to be my friend.
(51:30):
You've got to find Canon Chancellor, you will not find me under my name.
I may yet regret this, but nevertheless, I do Facebook in the name of my role and I do soon behalf of the cathedral.
But of course, I sometimes do my own thing as well.
(51:51):
So that's the very long winded answer to what should have been a simple question.
like stories, great.
Yeah, wonderful.
That's great.
Well, Gordon, it's been a real pleasure chatting to you today, all about your book andcarols and music and things.
It's been great.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Not at all.
wish everybody a happy Christmas.
(52:11):
Yes, and a Merry Christmas to you, Gordon, as well.
And thank you as well to our listeners for joining us today and for listening to thispodcast.
Don't forget that it comes out twice a month on the 1st and the 15th.
So we'll be back on New Year's
day with a brand new episode where I'll be chatting with another Christian author allabout their books, their lives and their faith.
(52:35):
Thanks for joining me and I look forward to the pleasure of your company again reallysoon.
Thank you and goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McCleary.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
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