March 15, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast, host Matt McChlery interviews author Tania Harris about her new book, 'God Dreams.' Tania shares her personal journey of discovering how God communicates through dreams and visions, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and interpreting these experiences. The conversation delves into biblical examples, the significance of symbolism, cultural perspectives on dreams, and the necessity of discernment in interpreting them. Tania also discusses her future projects and the ongoing journey of hearing God's voice.
Links
Help keep this podcast on the web by simply buying me a coffee https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattmcchlery
Sponsor an episode of this podcast Click for Advertising info
Get a copy of God Dreams from St Andrews Bookshop
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Visit Tania Harris' website godconversations.com
Takeaways
- Tania Harris discusses her ministry, God Conversations, which helps people recognize God's voice.
- Her first God dream led her to explore the biblical significance of dreams.
- Dreams and visions are a vital part of spiritual communication.
- The language of dreams often involves symbolism and imagery.
- Cultural context influences the interpretation of symbols in dreams.
- The Western tradition has largely rejected the significance of dreams in spiritual communication.
- Discernment is crucial in interpreting dreams and visions.
- Neuroscience supports the idea that dreams play a role in mental health and processing emotions.
- Everyone has the potential to experience God dreams, regardless of cultural background.
- Tania's upcoming book will explore the unique role of the Holy Spirit in communication.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to God Dreams 00:58 The Journey of Recognizing God's Voice 07:02 Biblical Foundations of Dreams and Visions 10:46 The Power of Symbolism in Dreams 21:10 Cultural Perspectives on God Dreams 26:08 Discernment in Dream Interpretation 29:56 Tania's Personal Insights and Future Projects
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcleary.com.
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast where welike to encourage you in your discipleship one book at a time.
(00:27):
As we meet some amazing Christian authors,
and learn about their books, their lives and their faith.
I'm your host, Matt McChlery, and thanks so much for clicking over here and joining us onthe podcast today.
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about dreams and visions with the author,Tania Harris.
(00:49):
Well, hello Tania, and welcome to the podcast.
Good to be here Matt, love talking to book fans.
It's so good having you here, thank you so much.
And you've recently released a new book called God Dreams.
Could you just tell us, starting off by explaining what inspired you to write this book?
(01:16):
Well, as your listeners may or may not know, I have a ministry called God Conversationsthat equips people how to recognise and respond to God's voice and it came out of a
personal journey in my own life discovering that for myself.
And probably about five years into that journey, I had my first God dream and I honestlydid not have any frame of reference for it.
(01:38):
I'd never heard of it before when I told my pastor, they said, you're a bit strange,Tania.
told my friends like what are you talking about?
And then I read the Bible and I realized it's okay because they're a bit strange toobecause actually this is really common in the library of scripture.
So that took me on a bit of a journey to read everything I could on the topic and I gotsome answers but then as I've walked along and I did a PhD also in the topic of hearing
(02:05):
God's voice I was able to put some puzzle pieces together and I believe
present some thoughts and some teaching that's really gonna help people in their pathwayof discipleship because dreams and visions are a core part of how the Holy Spirit speaks
to us and of course the Holy Spirit is the continuing voice of Jesus in our lives callingus to follow and be disciples and so that's the angle that is in the book and it helps us
(02:30):
to discern between you know how do I know if it's a god dream?
That's always a big one.
Everyone dreams.
But how do we know which one is from the Holy Spirit?
And how do we understand the language of symbolism that we see in dreams and visions?
really good.
Really interesting.
Now you mentioned God Conversations.
That was a previous book as well for those book lovers out there.
(02:55):
I'm imagining it's been published in different countries around the world, but I know herein the UK, God Dreams and God Conversations, they look very similar to each other on the
covers.
So you start to get that kind of collection.
So if you're a collector or you like sort of like a series as it were, and you'relistening to this, then you're in the right place.
(03:16):
So there's God Conversations, but of course God Dreams is the latest book that TaniaHarris has just released.
Now you mentioned that you mentioned your first God dream in that little introduction.
Would you mind telling us a little bit more about
Yes, it came at a time of my life when I was very frustrated with God's timing.
(03:38):
I don't know if anyone out there has experienced how slow God can be at times.
So I was having a good whinge and I then I started to try and project manage God because Ifigured you know I have some things to do.
I'm pretty organised.
God if you did this this month and then I would do that and then if you could do this andI just was so frustrated trying to work out God's timing and then I had this dream.
(04:04):
And in the dream, I was sleeping and I woke up to discover that my apartment had beenbroken into by a thief and things had been stolen.
And my first thought as I woke, as we often do, is what time is it?
So I looked across at the bedside table to see the clock.
And for some strange reason, there was something wrong with my clock.
All the hands of the clock were spinning around and I couldn't read the time.
(04:28):
I have another clock, I thought.
It's a digital clock.
So I looked at the other clock to see maybe, you know,
I can tell what time it is.
And then I looked at it and all the digits on the face of the clock were scrambled and Icouldn't read the time.
So in my dream, I'm frustrated.
What time is it?
And then I'm thinking, how did a thief break into my flat?
(04:52):
And I didn't notice it.
Surely I would have woken up so that I could have stopped him.
And then I literally did wake up.
Such a strange dream.
You know, didn't think anything of it as you do.
Got up, a shower, had breakfast, sat down that morning to have my time with God.
And at that time I was using a devotional book which had set readings for each day.
(05:12):
I opened up that day's reading, which was from verses in Matthew 24.
And it said, if the owner of the house had have known what time it was, they would nothave been sleeping when the thief broke in and stole.
So you too must be awake and ready.
(05:33):
because you do not know when your God will come.
You will not know the timing.
And it kind of hit me like what?
That dream?
It fit perfectly.
And I'm like, is that you God?
And then that morning I was working at a Bible college at the time we had a staff meetingwhere the principal would come and share a few thoughts every week.
(05:54):
And so we went down to the staff room and he opens up his Bible to Matthew 25 and hestarts to tell a parable of Jesus about
bridegroom coming and it was taking a long time and everyone was getting impatient andthere were five wise bridesmaids and five foolish bridesmaids and the difference between
the two was that the five wise ones they all fell asleep but the five wise ones were readyno matter what time it was and and then the principal looks out across the room and he
(06:22):
says some of you people here you are impatient with God's timing you are trying to workout the timing of God but God is saying
irrespective of whether you know the time.
Stay awake.
Be ready and have faith that God's gonna come you know and I'm sitting there going mygoodness.
See I was familiar with two the two forms of hearing God you know reading from thescriptures that time when the Holy Spirit wakes you up to some truth in the scriptures and
(06:54):
the other times when you're sitting in a sermon or in someone's teaching about the gospeland it kind of hits you you know that moment.
but I had never heard of God speaking in a dream.
So that then began a process of learning for me and discovery.
Hmm, hmm, very interesting, very interesting.
(07:14):
Your book looks at many different biblical examples of God speaking to people throughdreams, which is really helpful actually grounding this in the Bible.
Why do you think this method of communication is so prevalent throughout scripture?
Yeah, and the interesting thing is we don't see it.
(07:35):
We think we we can.
of just skim over it, we know the stories, don't we?
And we're like, yeah, that story, but then you go, hang on.
That's actually a dream.
yeah.
everyone points to Joseph.
Joseph's dreams.
Yeah.
But the only one that we kind of highlight and we we highlight it in maybe Daniel's dreamsbut in actual fact in the Old Testament most of the god conversations are dreams and
(08:01):
visions.
Meaning god speaks in picture form.
dreams we understand today as that which we have when we're asleep.
Visions when we're awake.
but in the scriptures there's not a real defining line between the two.
So scholars today will talk about dream visions.
The point is that mode of communication is in pictures, the language of symbols andimagery rather than words.
(08:24):
And in fact, most of the spirit revelation experiences in scripture are in this form.
So someone's, you know, said, I think 900 dreams and visions in the Old Testament.
don't know how he counted because they all merge into one another.
But all the famous biblical characters had them.
So we're talking, know, Abraham, Jacob, and obviously Joseph.
(08:48):
And then we get into the time of Moses and all of the major and minor prophets.
You know, even Solomon, when he received his wisdom, it came in a dream.
So we get all of the judge, many of the judges having dreams and visions as well.
Then we come to the New Testament.
it doesn't stop.
(09:09):
So there are five dreams in the Christmas story and I remember hearing that.
Let's say Mary and Joseph see angels and things in dreams.
men.
Yeah and you know Jesus would have been murdered as a baby if people had not listened totheir dreams.
And I remember thinking I've never heard that.
I've never thought that before.
How did I not see that?
And then of course Jesus has a couple of visions in his experience as well.
(09:33):
And then we get to the new covenant.
The time of the birth birthing of the church.
And when the spirit is poured out Peter says this is to fulfill what was promised by theprophet Joel and others that when the spirit comes
sons and daughters will prophesy and your old men will have visions and dreams.
sorry your old men will have dreams and your young men will have visions.
(09:54):
And what what does that mean?
What is he talking about?
Well it's a Hebrew parallelism.
The way you see it written in the Bible is like a poetic form like a stanza.
And it's a a Hebrew rhetorical device to say sons and daughters young and old every everygroup every demographic will be able to prophesy and have dreams and visions.
(10:15):
What is he talking about?
Well
The backstory is that the Old Testament prophets, their main mode of communication isvisions and dreams.
They would hear God's voice in picture language as we've seen.
And then they would prophesy it.
They would speak it out because under the old covenant, people largely heard from Godthrough the prophets.
So the message had to be passed on.
(10:35):
So the distinctive of the new covenant as Peter records it is that now who gets to havethat experience?
Everyone gets to have dreams and visions.
Everyone gets to prophesy.
Speak out what God is saying.
Live according to it.
And that's what we see in the book of Acts.
So there are over twenty God conversations in the book of Acts.
Nothing happens without God first speaking it.
(10:57):
And most of them are in visions and dreams.
And then of course the last book of the Bible.
John's revelation towards the end of the first century sent to the seven churches andprobably relevant to the whole church in the early times and certainly we can find
significance in it today.
It's all visions and dreams.
all of it.
Very except for the first three chapters when it's words but the imagery is reallypowerful.
(11:23):
So you asked why I don't know if we get a clear explanation as to why.
God just says I God just says in numbers twelve to most.
This way and so this is a question I have asked myself over the years because since thatfirst dream about the thief in the night I have
(11:44):
heard from God multiple forms and I've begun to understand how this works and I've done alittle bit of study in this area and it's super interesting to me that neuroscientists
tell us that we remember images six and a half times more than words and we all know thatsaying a picture tells a thousand words.
(12:07):
We've all experienced this and in fact visual communication
transcends communication barriers.
And so we use, it's pre-verbal, it's what we use to teach our children to read.
We use picture books, don't we?
Not the Oxford dictionary.
And so I think as a form of communication, God uses it because it's the most powerful one.
(12:32):
And it's interesting as well, the whole notion of sleep, which is when we do quite a lotof our dreaming.
I know sometimes we can dream while we're awake, but quite often it happens while we'reasleep.
And how...
We spend a lot of our lives in an unconscious state, if you think about it.
(12:56):
A big chunk of it is being asleep.
So, no, it's fascinating that God could even speak to us.
And the interesting interesting distincting of dreaming too Matt is that when we dream ourbrains are switched off for the most part.
And I I think that means that the we're more open to the spiritual revelation when wesleep.
(13:19):
I often have wondered why did God put Peter in a trance to speak to him?
So Peter's on the rooftop in the early church.
He's he's praying.
Maybe what about
church looks like.
That was his call to help build the church but he'd never seen a church.
You know what is a church?
Jesus never talked about it.
(13:41):
And so he's praying
the kingdom but not so much about the church yeah
Exactly.
So Peter's praying and he falls into a trance and then he has this vision about the churchand it's to include Gentiles but it comes in the form of images.
It's unclean food and the look the vision is not God's message about his diet.
(14:03):
It's about including the Gentile people into the church.
Now that message would have been really difficult to receive because Peter is a Jew andhe's been taught all of his life.
from the books of Moses that Gentiles are unclean.
They're not allowed in the holiest parts of the temple.
If you go into their homes, you'll be ritually unclean.
(14:25):
And there's food that is not allowed to eat.
It has very highly regulated food laws.
And now this vision is saying, get up, kill and eat this food, in other words.
And then later on, as the story goes, it becomes clear that God is talking about thepeople, the Gentiles, the non-Jewish people.
This gospel is for them too.
God doesn't play favorites.
And so therefore, so why did God put Peter in a trance which is probably halfway betweensleeping and awake?
(14:53):
I wonder sometimes if God can get his messages through in the dream state because we'remore able to receive them.
The message can get past our analytical thinking and perhaps our initial rejection of themessage.
Yeah, the thing about picture language as well is, as you were saying in your book,there's a lot of interpretation that's needed because it's not very literal.
(15:23):
Because as you were saying there about Peter looking at the clean and unclean food, itwasn't really about clean and unclean food.
It was all about the church and it was a symbol for the Gentiles and the Jews and theearly church and all that.
Whereas, you know, he saw a cloth with food on it.
So I guess your book deals quite a bit with, you go have quite a few chapters aboutsymbols and symbolism and what some of the symbols and dreams mean.
(15:59):
I don't think we're going to go into that on the podcast.
If people are interested, well, they need to get a copy of God Dreams and have a look forthemselves.
But I guess for me it's a case of, how do you know if you are interpreting the symbolscorrectly?
(16:19):
And is there kind of an agreement between sort of Christians, well, you know, if you seean eagle, it means this, or does it mean different things for different people?
Because, you know, you're in a different culture.
God knows where you're at, so maybe an eagle for you in the UK might be different toseeing an eagle in your dream.
(16:45):
I know I'm speaking to you in Australia at the moment, and again different if you're insomewhere like Brazil or maybe somewhere in Africa if you see an eagle in your dream, it
might mean something different.
How does that kind of fit in and work with this whole symbolic interpreting symbols?
that we've got to deal with.
(17:07):
And this is one of the challenges for people, think.
This is probably why the Western mindset goes, this is not black and white enough.
It's a little bit open to interpretation.
It's a little bit creative, a little bit artistic.
You have to draw on other parts of your brain.
So one of the key important insights here is to understand that symbols are not static.
(17:30):
They carry meaning that is subject to people's understanding around them.
So meanings can change.
And therefore the question should always be what does the symbol mean to the person who'sreceiving it?
I like your example of the eagle.
I've got another example for you that I like to use.
It's the symbol of a cat.
(17:51):
I am a big cat fan.
I have a beautiful cat called Gucci.
He's a Burmese.
I think I caught a glimpse of him on the screen as we were just doing this interview.
know into conversation sometimes.
And he so when I see if I would if I were to see a cat in my dream it would invokefeelings of comfort and joy and peace.
(18:12):
If my brother were to see a cat in his dream it would invoke the opposite.
It would mean something very different.
If you were an ancient Egyptian and you saw a cat in your dream
would mean something different again because cats back then were the were sacred theembodiment of the gods.
If you lived in the medieval period and you saw a cat in your dream, you wouldn't want tobe drawn to worship, you'd be superstitious, would run a mile.
(18:44):
So as you can see the symbol of the cat changes with cultures and peoples.
It's very similar to I think often used the example of the red cross.
The red cross is a
organization that organizes philanthropy and helps out in times of war, provides safetyand refuge and neutrality.
(19:05):
And so if you're on a war field and you see a red cross, you immediately associate thatwith safety, medical help, refuge.
However, if you're in the Middle East, you won't see a red cross, you will see a redcrescent.
because the symbol has been derived from the main religious practice of the peoplethroughout history.
(19:25):
so symbols have a way of being open to interpretation that depends on the people aroundthem.
So the key is to ask what does the symbol mean to you?
Let me give you a current example.
I really love this example.
A woman was praying for someone in a time of ministry and she has a vision.
her mind's eye she sees a picture.
(19:47):
she's awake but she sees a picture and it's a picture of a yellow peacock.
She's thinking what is that?
Peacocks aren't yellow.
What does that mean?
And she's trying to think through the interpretation and she just comes up with nothing.
And then she says to the woman she's praying for look I keep seeing this picture of ayellow peacock.
(20:08):
Does that mean anything to you?
Now the woman says
That's the password for everything in my life.
You
And as they reflected on it, they realized that God was saying, will you allow me into thesecret parts of your heart that no one else can see?
(20:32):
And so now we see the power of an image, but it was subject to the understanding of theperson who was receiving it.
And that's real key here when it comes to interpretation.
Yeah, that's great.
You mentioned a little earlier on about how in the West we can sometimes find this wholedreams and messages, know, God communicating to us through dreams, rather quite difficult.
(21:00):
Do you think that plays a part, well, it must play a part in the fact that in the West we
not that God communicates with us less in that way, maybe we're just not as aware of it,maybe.
But you definitely see, or I have in my experience, a lot more receptivity of God speakingin dreams in other cultures that are not in the West.
(21:32):
I know several people from places like Iran,
and sort of Middle Eastern countries, sort of North Africa countries as well.
We've had dreams and encounters and some of them have just come to faith through having adream.
It's amazing.
(21:52):
I know your book's got a story of someone in there.
Let's first of all, do you think that that's true?
That people in the West find it more difficult to spot God dreams or what?
Absolutely and it's because the tradition particularly the Protestant tradition hasactively rejected this.
And it's the broader context of course is the Western tradition.
(22:16):
But every culture in history apart from the West has always understood that dream visionsare a kind of doorway into the spirit world.
So it's just the West that has rejected and particularly the Protestant tradition has sowe get some of our most famous writers on the topic of hearing God's voice reject this.
They say things like it's strange, it's unreliable, you can't trust it.
(22:38):
Now, what they're saying is you do need to discern it because this is where the hiccuplies.
But in actual fact, the Western tradition has actively rejected this.
And therefore, the books that we read, the teaching that we receive, I remember veryclearly in a very large conference, very famous church conference, the keynote speaker
(22:59):
saying that this
verse in Acts chapter two at the new covenant.
means that um you know if you don't follow God's plan when you're young by the time youget get old that that that vision for your life will turn into a dream.
Completely misinterpreted what Peter was saying.
(23:21):
And so we've turned even the idea of vision.
No Joseph had a vision for his life.
No no no.
No.
He fell asleep.
He had a literal dream.
God spoke to him about a vision of leadership that he would never have imagined forhimself because he was one of the youngest in his family and he would never lead his
family.
It wasn't even on scope.
(23:42):
It was a literal dream.
But what the West has done is we've turned it into a metaphor to mean have big plans foryour life.
Follow your dreams.
Follow what you want to do.
It's not what it means.
And this is part of the rejection of the Western tradition.
So that is the context.
The problem is that people are having these experiences.
(24:03):
But no one wants to talk about it because we all feel like we're to be strange andlabelled as wacky.
I have this happens repeatedly.
I've been doing the Ministry of God conversations for nearly 20 years now.
I've travelled all around the world, particularly the West in different churches andconstantly after I have ministered people will come up to me and they will say, Tania, can
I tell you about this dream that I had that changed my life?
(24:26):
And then they would tell me this amazing God conversation and then they would say,
haven't told anyone this before.
And I would say why?
Fascinating.
And I think even as I've been promoting the book in England recently in your country I dida book tour and I would often ask you know audiences hands up if you've ever had a god
dream two thirds of the room would put their hand up.
(24:49):
But no one never talks about it.
No one teaches on it.
know this there are some books available out there but the problem with some of the booksthat are out there is that they don't connect the voice of the Holy Spirit to Jesus and
therefore they're not focused on discipleship Jesus said follow me my people hear my voiceand they follow but then he left and he sent the spirit to continue to do that and that's
(25:15):
what we see in the book of Acts.
And so there's a bit of a backstory there about why this is problematic for the church.
I understand it.
Part of the problem is that we haven't had wisdom and discernment in this area.
So people say, I have a dream and I saw the throw and then they go a bit wacky to behonest.
And so we do need some pretty clear understandings about.
(25:37):
And that's a key word that you've mentioned a couple of times there, which is discernment.
I think that that's a real key.
And I know if my wife, well, if my wife was listening to this, we've talked about dreamsin the past, and I must say she has some weird dreams.
Very, very, very odd.
(25:58):
And she, and sometimes very, very disturbing.
And she sometimes wakes up and said, I'm so thankful that my dreams, you know, aren'treal.
And I know that I dream, but I can never remember what I've dreamt.
But you do deal a little bit in your book about, well, how can we tell?
(26:22):
You know, are all dreams God dreams?
Then what about the really disturbing ones?
those from God as well?
Or surely not.
How do we separate?
How do we be discerning?
You know, so we don't get up on a Sunday morning and say, Hey, I had this really weirddream.
And everyone kind of looks at you sideways thinking, well, I don't think that was God.
(26:50):
How do we discern?
This is where neuroscience and psychology helps us a little bit.
again, when I was going on this journey, I'm not an expert in either of those areas, butit led me into trying to understand more what's happening while we sleep.
To begin with, everyone dreams for one to two hours a night.
You're not supposed to remember them.
(27:11):
You know, if you're remembering all your dreams every night, it means you are constantlybeing waken up.
So we typically only remember the one with the last one we had.
And the vast majority of our dreams, the brain restoring itself while we are sleeping.
So it's kind of like the filing cabinet is busy and the brain's incredibly clever.
(27:32):
We've got a beautiful God given mechanism of sleep that organizes our thoughts and ourmemories, processes, problems.
The brain is actively doing restorative processes as we sleep.
Studies have been done that if you stop someone dreaming.
it will they will begin to show signs of mental illness.
(27:53):
We need to dream as a part of the healing processes in our bodies.
So psychology then tells us that some of those dreams that we're having bad dreams,strange dreams will often give us an indication about what is going beneath the surface of
our lives that we're not always aware of because our conscious self doesn't necessarilywant hasn't got the scope to hear them or understand them.
(28:18):
So
you get classic examples of war veterans.
They never talk about their traumatic experiences but it comes up repeatedly in the dream.
and it's kind of acting as an alert system.
Something is wrong.
There is healing that needs to
So we wouldn't class those as god dreams, would we?
(28:39):
Definitely not.
They're human natural dreams, but they're part of the God given mechanism that makes ushuman and that leads us into health and wholeness.
So it's a wellbeing issue really, which is why it is so interesting to listen to.
But the vast majority of our dreams are natural dreams.
But now and again, you'll get this standout message that will be coherent and full ofwisdom.
(29:03):
And if there is something that stands out and it's worth going through that discernment,
process.
I think that is best illustrated in the story we've just talked about the apostle Peter onthe the rooftop with his vision of the unclean animals.
There is a discernment process to go through and it got conversations.
we have articulated that process based on 2000 years of church tradition actually andPeter's experience identifying three questions.
(29:31):
Would Jesus say this?
Is someone else saying this?
And our spiritual signs following this.
And so what we see here is a process of going, need to test what we hear, not everythingcomes from God.
It's subject to my personal influence.
And therefore, if we apply those questions, we can be able to be confident about the voicethat we're hearing is from the Holy Spirit.
(29:56):
That's really good, that's really good.
Now, there's so many more questions I could ask about the book.
Your book goes into things that you give a God dreams framework for people to use.
You dig into the discernment process, also sort of how to understand and unpack symbolismand dreams as well.
(30:16):
And a great story about Ahmed, I think he was, who's an ISIS terrorist who met God in adream.
That's all in there.
So if you are, if this has fired your imagination and or you've had a God dream or youwant to understand more about dreams and how God communicates to us through dreams and
visions, do get a copy of Tania Harris's new book, God Dreams, How to Hear God's Voice inDreams and Visions.
(30:43):
And Pete Gregg, by the way, endorses it and says it's a brilliant book.
And I would agree.
So do go and grab yourself a copy.
We'll be back.
chatting more with Tania Harris about her life and her faith just after these.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast, you can help keep it on the web.
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
(31:04):
Head over to buymeacoffee.com slash Matt McChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's show notes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian booksand authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blur podcast.
(31:26):
I'm chatting with the author Tania Harris all about her new book, Dreams.
And now at this point in the show, Tania, we'd like to peel back the cover and get to knowthe author a little bit better.
So you are currently living in Australia, is that correct?
Yes.
(31:46):
and Australia is a very big place.
So whereabouts in Australia roughly are you?
I live in Sydney.
I was raised in Melbourne.
So I live in a beautiful city.
Lots of nice beaches, I believe.
(32:06):
What do you like to do for fun?
I am a bit of an outdoorsy adventure person, so I love to hike and ski and kayak actually.
That's probably one of my favourite things to do.
But if I'm not being so active, then I'm a bit of a reader and I do love dinner partieswith friends actually, solving all the problems of the world.
(32:27):
Speaking of things to eat with dinner parties, have you got any particular favouritedishes or maybe it's like a whole sort of style of food like Thai food or Chinese food or
something like that?
I do love Italian to be honest.
I'm a big fan even though people think I'm Italian or Greek, but actually I'm not.
(32:48):
half Dutch, but I'm a fan of pasta.
Good quality pasta.
Great.
Homemade.
Have you made your own pasta before?
Definitely not.
Not about it.
I do that when other experts can do it much better.
Exactly, exactly.
(33:12):
In terms of drink, tea or coffee, what would be your go-to?
Coffee, yeah, me too.
And what's your like order if you go to a takeaway place?
Is it just like sort of a straight simple order or is it sort of a flourishinglycomplicated one?
(33:32):
I'm moving towards a bit of a flat white.
I don't know if I like too much milk, but the other thing is I'm also moving towards moredecaf because I don't want to be addicted to anything.
And I have to say, I appreciate your country is good at this.
So when I was there last, know, the hotels all had decaf.
I was so impressed.
go to America and that's just a very different story.
(33:52):
So I do enjoy it.
And all the other kinds of milk as well, strained from nuts and sorts of interestingthings.
Oats and whatnot.
Have you got any family at all?
I do, have four siblings and my mum is still alive, but they're scattered all around theworld.
(34:12):
So I don't always get to see them.
And I, as you mentioned, I do have a very cool cat.
So, but also a very beautiful spiritual family that has walked the journey with me formany years now.
I'm very thankful for.
And it's fascinating, must say, coming back to your book, you just mentioned that, wasjust the whole thing about you moving to Sydney and the whole story around that.
(34:39):
It's really, really interesting.
You have to read the book.
Yeah, it's much more storytelling it than living it.
Wow.
Isn't that always the case?
Yes.
Sounds good in a book, but when you have to walk it, wow, it's hard work.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Speaking of the Holy Spirit speaking to you, what is the Holy Spirit doing or saying toyou in your life at the moment?
(35:09):
Yeah, that's my favourite question, Matt.
You know, there's a few things at the moment.
One of them is I'm really working hard on some personal development in my ability tolisten to people.
Actually, it's quite funny.
I was doing a recording of radio spots yesterday, Matt.
You will be able to hear God Conversations spots on Premiere and UCB in your country.
(35:33):
And if you listen to what I'm saying, it's often what God is doing in my life at the time.
You know, and I'm doing a little focus.
I finished reading a book about visions of heaven with people who've had near-deathexperiences.
So I'm looking at the experiences of Stephen and Paul.
And I've been in the book of Revelation, the visions of John around heaven for quite awhile now.
(35:56):
So I've been very much reflecting on heaven and this world and this earth and what does itmean when we have a vision of heaven?
understanding what God has promised for us in the new creation.
So you know there's a lot going on and recently God spoke to me about fasting.
So yay I get to practice more fasting.
(36:17):
Which is not my favourite thing in the world to do Matt.
Well, this episode is going out in the season of Lent.
So there might be some listeners who are already undertaking fasting for Lent.
So you'll be in good company.
Have you got anything you're working on?
I know you've just released the book, Converse, God Dreams.
(36:40):
I am muddling your books up.
God Dreams.
Are you working on something else?
Is something else in the works that you can let us in on maybe?
can.
I have four books out.
Two of them the ones you mentioned for you know the popular Christian audience and thenthere's another one called the church here's God's voice for leaders and then there's
(37:01):
another one an academic book from my PhD the theology and practice of hearing God's voice.
So the next one I'm working on is for leaders again.
We're kind of cycling around the audience.
this one is really looking at the role the unique role of the Holy Spirit.
So Jesus said it's
you're good if I leave.
Now if I said to most people what would you rather have?
(37:24):
Jesus?
Having a flat white coffee with Jesus?
Or would you rather have the Holy Spirit?
What what would most people say?
I I tend to think that most of us would prefer the living breathing Jesus so we can have agood chat.
But Jesus said it's better if I leave because if I leave I will send you my spirit.
So this book is really focused on
(37:47):
Why is it better?
What is the Holy Spirit doing?
The Holy Spirit speaks in a way that's consistent with Jesus but does something uniquethat Jesus didn't do.
What was that?
And so that's the book I'm exploring and we're looking at the God conversations of the NewTestament church as well as the God conversations in contemporary life.
(38:09):
I'm a practical theologian so that's part of what my methodology is.
So currently collecting
stories and showing how they parallel with the early church and then with Jesus and howthey are unique to the work of the spirit.
So I'm super excited about this one.
Interesting, yeah, that sounds like a good one.
really good.
(38:31):
Where can people connect with you?
Are you on social media?
Have you got a website?
And where could people buy your books?
The best place is GodConversations.com.
We have all of the books available there in the links.
We have stores in major geographical centers around the world.
We also have lots of freebies, so podcasts and videos and articles and a specialdevotional plan that you can subscribe to.
(39:00):
One of the things we've found, Matt, is that hearing God's voice is not a one-off event.
It's a journey that we go on over time.
So we want to continue to equip the church with
really helpful teaching and insight in a way that connects our God conversations to Jesusthat produces transformation in us as disciples and then sends us out into the mission and
(39:22):
ministry of Jesus in the world.
So that's what we're focused on and you'll find a lot of resources there that will behelpful to you.
Well, thank you, Tania.
And for the benefit of our listeners, we'll put a link to your website in this episode'sshow notes.
So if you're listening to this and you want to find out more about Got Conversations, justclick on the show note link and it'll take you where you want to go.
(39:47):
So that just leaves you to say thank you.
Thank you, Tania, so much for joining us here on the Christian Bookblog podcast today.
It's been fantastic chatting with you all about God Dreams.
My pleasure, Matt.
Wonderful to chat.
And thank you as well for tuning in and listening to this podcast.
Don't forget an episode comes out on the first and the 15th of every month.
(40:09):
So it won't be long until I'll be back again with another amazing Christian author,finding out all about their life and their faith and equipping you with another great
Christian book to help you in your discipleship one book at a time.
Thanks for listening.
I would look forward to having the pleasure of your company again really soon.
Thank you.
(40:31):
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors.
Hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcleary.com.
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast where welike to encourage you in your discipleship one book at a time.
(00:27):
As we meet some amazing Christian authors,
and learn about their books, their lives and their faith.
I'm your host, Matt McChlery, and thanks so much for clicking over here and joining us onthe podcast today.
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about dreams and visions with the author,Tania Harris.
(00:49):
Well, hello Tania, and welcome to the podcast.
Good to be here Matt, love talking to book fans.
It's so good having you here, thank you so much.
And you've recently released a new book called God Dreams.
Could you just tell us, starting off by explaining what inspired you to write this book?
(01:16):
Well, as your listeners may or may not know, I have a ministry called God Conversationsthat equips people how to recognise and respond to God's voice and it came out of a
personal journey in my own life discovering that for myself.
And probably about five years into that journey, I had my first God dream and I honestlydid not have any frame of reference for it.
(01:38):
I'd never heard of it before when I told my pastor, they said, you're a bit strange,Tania.
told my friends like what are you talking about?
And then I read the Bible and I realized it's okay because they're a bit strange toobecause actually this is really common in the library of scripture.
So that took me on a bit of a journey to read everything I could on the topic and I gotsome answers but then as I've walked along and I did a PhD also in the topic of hearing
(02:05):
God's voice I was able to put some puzzle pieces together and I believe
present some thoughts and some teaching that's really gonna help people in their pathwayof discipleship because dreams and visions are a core part of how the Holy Spirit speaks
to us and of course the Holy Spirit is the continuing voice of Jesus in our lives callingus to follow and be disciples and so that's the angle that is in the book and it helps us
(02:30):
to discern between you know how do I know if it's a god dream?
That's always a big one.
Everyone dreams.
But how do we know which one is from the Holy Spirit?
And how do we understand the language of symbolism that we see in dreams and visions?
really good.
Really interesting.
Now you mentioned God Conversations.
That was a previous book as well for those book lovers out there.
(02:55):
I'm imagining it's been published in different countries around the world, but I know herein the UK, God Dreams and God Conversations, they look very similar to each other on the
covers.
So you start to get that kind of collection.
So if you're a collector or you like sort of like a series as it were, and you'relistening to this, then you're in the right place.
(03:16):
So there's God Conversations, but of course God Dreams is the latest book that TaniaHarris has just released.
Now you mentioned that you mentioned your first God dream in that little introduction.
Would you mind telling us a little bit more about
Yes, it came at a time of my life when I was very frustrated with God's timing.
(03:38):
I don't know if anyone out there has experienced how slow God can be at times.
So I was having a good whinge and I then I started to try and project manage God because Ifigured you know I have some things to do.
I'm pretty organised.
God if you did this this month and then I would do that and then if you could do this andI just was so frustrated trying to work out God's timing and then I had this dream.
(04:04):
And in the dream, I was sleeping and I woke up to discover that my apartment had beenbroken into by a thief and things had been stolen.
And my first thought as I woke, as we often do, is what time is it?
So I looked across at the bedside table to see the clock.
And for some strange reason, there was something wrong with my clock.
All the hands of the clock were spinning around and I couldn't read the time.
(04:28):
I have another clock, I thought.
It's a digital clock.
So I looked at the other clock to see maybe, you know,
I can tell what time it is.
And then I looked at it and all the digits on the face of the clock were scrambled and Icouldn't read the time.
So in my dream, I'm frustrated.
What time is it?
And then I'm thinking, how did a thief break into my flat?
(04:52):
And I didn't notice it.
Surely I would have woken up so that I could have stopped him.
And then I literally did wake up.
Such a strange dream.
You know, didn't think anything of it as you do.
Got up, a shower, had breakfast, sat down that morning to have my time with God.
And at that time I was using a devotional book which had set readings for each day.
(05:12):
I opened up that day's reading, which was from verses in Matthew 24.
And it said, if the owner of the house had have known what time it was, they would nothave been sleeping when the thief broke in and stole.
So you too must be awake and ready.
(05:33):
because you do not know when your God will come.
You will not know the timing.
And it kind of hit me like what?
That dream?
It fit perfectly.
And I'm like, is that you God?
And then that morning I was working at a Bible college at the time we had a staff meetingwhere the principal would come and share a few thoughts every week.
(05:54):
And so we went down to the staff room and he opens up his Bible to Matthew 25 and hestarts to tell a parable of Jesus about
bridegroom coming and it was taking a long time and everyone was getting impatient andthere were five wise bridesmaids and five foolish bridesmaids and the difference between
the two was that the five wise ones they all fell asleep but the five wise ones were readyno matter what time it was and and then the principal looks out across the room and he
(06:22):
says some of you people here you are impatient with God's timing you are trying to workout the timing of God but God is saying
irrespective of whether you know the time.
Stay awake.
Be ready and have faith that God's gonna come you know and I'm sitting there going mygoodness.
See I was familiar with two the two forms of hearing God you know reading from thescriptures that time when the Holy Spirit wakes you up to some truth in the scriptures and
(06:54):
the other times when you're sitting in a sermon or in someone's teaching about the gospeland it kind of hits you you know that moment.
but I had never heard of God speaking in a dream.
So that then began a process of learning for me and discovery.
Hmm, hmm, very interesting, very interesting.
(07:14):
Your book looks at many different biblical examples of God speaking to people throughdreams, which is really helpful actually grounding this in the Bible.
Why do you think this method of communication is so prevalent throughout scripture?
Yeah, and the interesting thing is we don't see it.
(07:35):
We think we we can.
of just skim over it, we know the stories, don't we?
And we're like, yeah, that story, but then you go, hang on.
That's actually a dream.
yeah.
everyone points to Joseph.
Joseph's dreams.
Yeah.
But the only one that we kind of highlight and we we highlight it in maybe Daniel's dreamsbut in actual fact in the Old Testament most of the god conversations are dreams and
(08:01):
visions.
Meaning god speaks in picture form.
dreams we understand today as that which we have when we're asleep.
Visions when we're awake.
but in the scriptures there's not a real defining line between the two.
So scholars today will talk about dream visions.
The point is that mode of communication is in pictures, the language of symbols andimagery rather than words.
(08:24):
And in fact, most of the spirit revelation experiences in scripture are in this form.
So someone's, you know, said, I think 900 dreams and visions in the Old Testament.
don't know how he counted because they all merge into one another.
But all the famous biblical characters had them.
So we're talking, know, Abraham, Jacob, and obviously Joseph.
(08:48):
And then we get into the time of Moses and all of the major and minor prophets.
You know, even Solomon, when he received his wisdom, it came in a dream.
So we get all of the judge, many of the judges having dreams and visions as well.
Then we come to the New Testament.
it doesn't stop.
(09:09):
So there are five dreams in the Christmas story and I remember hearing that.
Let's say Mary and Joseph see angels and things in dreams.
men.
Yeah and you know Jesus would have been murdered as a baby if people had not listened totheir dreams.
And I remember thinking I've never heard that.
I've never thought that before.
How did I not see that?
And then of course Jesus has a couple of visions in his experience as well.
(09:33):
And then we get to the new covenant.
The time of the birth birthing of the church.
And when the spirit is poured out Peter says this is to fulfill what was promised by theprophet Joel and others that when the spirit comes
sons and daughters will prophesy and your old men will have visions and dreams.
sorry your old men will have dreams and your young men will have visions.
(09:54):
And what what does that mean?
What is he talking about?
Well it's a Hebrew parallelism.
The way you see it written in the Bible is like a poetic form like a stanza.
And it's a a Hebrew rhetorical device to say sons and daughters young and old every everygroup every demographic will be able to prophesy and have dreams and visions.
(10:15):
What is he talking about?
Well
The backstory is that the Old Testament prophets, their main mode of communication isvisions and dreams.
They would hear God's voice in picture language as we've seen.
And then they would prophesy it.
They would speak it out because under the old covenant, people largely heard from Godthrough the prophets.
So the message had to be passed on.
(10:35):
So the distinctive of the new covenant as Peter records it is that now who gets to havethat experience?
Everyone gets to have dreams and visions.
Everyone gets to prophesy.
Speak out what God is saying.
Live according to it.
And that's what we see in the book of Acts.
So there are over twenty God conversations in the book of Acts.
Nothing happens without God first speaking it.
(10:57):
And most of them are in visions and dreams.
And then of course the last book of the Bible.
John's revelation towards the end of the first century sent to the seven churches andprobably relevant to the whole church in the early times and certainly we can find
significance in it today.
It's all visions and dreams.
all of it.
Very except for the first three chapters when it's words but the imagery is reallypowerful.
(11:23):
So you asked why I don't know if we get a clear explanation as to why.
God just says I God just says in numbers twelve to most.
This way and so this is a question I have asked myself over the years because since thatfirst dream about the thief in the night I have
(11:44):
heard from God multiple forms and I've begun to understand how this works and I've done alittle bit of study in this area and it's super interesting to me that neuroscientists
tell us that we remember images six and a half times more than words and we all know thatsaying a picture tells a thousand words.
(12:07):
We've all experienced this and in fact visual communication
transcends communication barriers.
And so we use, it's pre-verbal, it's what we use to teach our children to read.
We use picture books, don't we?
Not the Oxford dictionary.
And so I think as a form of communication, God uses it because it's the most powerful one.
(12:32):
And it's interesting as well, the whole notion of sleep, which is when we do quite a lotof our dreaming.
I know sometimes we can dream while we're awake, but quite often it happens while we'reasleep.
And how...
We spend a lot of our lives in an unconscious state, if you think about it.
(12:56):
A big chunk of it is being asleep.
So, no, it's fascinating that God could even speak to us.
And the interesting interesting distincting of dreaming too Matt is that when we dream ourbrains are switched off for the most part.
And I I think that means that the we're more open to the spiritual revelation when wesleep.
(13:19):
I often have wondered why did God put Peter in a trance to speak to him?
So Peter's on the rooftop in the early church.
He's he's praying.
Maybe what about
church looks like.
That was his call to help build the church but he'd never seen a church.
You know what is a church?
Jesus never talked about it.
(13:41):
And so he's praying
the kingdom but not so much about the church yeah
Exactly.
So Peter's praying and he falls into a trance and then he has this vision about the churchand it's to include Gentiles but it comes in the form of images.
It's unclean food and the look the vision is not God's message about his diet.
(14:03):
It's about including the Gentile people into the church.
Now that message would have been really difficult to receive because Peter is a Jew andhe's been taught all of his life.
from the books of Moses that Gentiles are unclean.
They're not allowed in the holiest parts of the temple.
If you go into their homes, you'll be ritually unclean.
(14:25):
And there's food that is not allowed to eat.
It has very highly regulated food laws.
And now this vision is saying, get up, kill and eat this food, in other words.
And then later on, as the story goes, it becomes clear that God is talking about thepeople, the Gentiles, the non-Jewish people.
This gospel is for them too.
God doesn't play favorites.
And so therefore, so why did God put Peter in a trance which is probably halfway betweensleeping and awake?
(14:53):
I wonder sometimes if God can get his messages through in the dream state because we'remore able to receive them.
The message can get past our analytical thinking and perhaps our initial rejection of themessage.
Yeah, the thing about picture language as well is, as you were saying in your book,there's a lot of interpretation that's needed because it's not very literal.
(15:23):
Because as you were saying there about Peter looking at the clean and unclean food, itwasn't really about clean and unclean food.
It was all about the church and it was a symbol for the Gentiles and the Jews and theearly church and all that.
Whereas, you know, he saw a cloth with food on it.
So I guess your book deals quite a bit with, you go have quite a few chapters aboutsymbols and symbolism and what some of the symbols and dreams mean.
(15:59):
I don't think we're going to go into that on the podcast.
If people are interested, well, they need to get a copy of God Dreams and have a look forthemselves.
But I guess for me it's a case of, how do you know if you are interpreting the symbolscorrectly?
(16:19):
And is there kind of an agreement between sort of Christians, well, you know, if you seean eagle, it means this, or does it mean different things for different people?
Because, you know, you're in a different culture.
God knows where you're at, so maybe an eagle for you in the UK might be different toseeing an eagle in your dream.
(16:45):
I know I'm speaking to you in Australia at the moment, and again different if you're insomewhere like Brazil or maybe somewhere in Africa if you see an eagle in your dream, it
might mean something different.
How does that kind of fit in and work with this whole symbolic interpreting symbols?
that we've got to deal with.
(17:07):
And this is one of the challenges for people, think.
This is probably why the Western mindset goes, this is not black and white enough.
It's a little bit open to interpretation.
It's a little bit creative, a little bit artistic.
You have to draw on other parts of your brain.
So one of the key important insights here is to understand that symbols are not static.
(17:30):
They carry meaning that is subject to people's understanding around them.
So meanings can change.
And therefore the question should always be what does the symbol mean to the person who'sreceiving it?
I like your example of the eagle.
I've got another example for you that I like to use.
It's the symbol of a cat.
(17:51):
I am a big cat fan.
I have a beautiful cat called Gucci.
He's a Burmese.
I think I caught a glimpse of him on the screen as we were just doing this interview.
know into conversation sometimes.
And he so when I see if I would if I were to see a cat in my dream it would invokefeelings of comfort and joy and peace.
(18:12):
If my brother were to see a cat in his dream it would invoke the opposite.
It would mean something very different.
If you were an ancient Egyptian and you saw a cat in your dream
would mean something different again because cats back then were the were sacred theembodiment of the gods.
If you lived in the medieval period and you saw a cat in your dream, you wouldn't want tobe drawn to worship, you'd be superstitious, would run a mile.
(18:44):
So as you can see the symbol of the cat changes with cultures and peoples.
It's very similar to I think often used the example of the red cross.
The red cross is a
organization that organizes philanthropy and helps out in times of war, provides safetyand refuge and neutrality.
(19:05):
And so if you're on a war field and you see a red cross, you immediately associate thatwith safety, medical help, refuge.
However, if you're in the Middle East, you won't see a red cross, you will see a redcrescent.
because the symbol has been derived from the main religious practice of the peoplethroughout history.
(19:25):
so symbols have a way of being open to interpretation that depends on the people aroundthem.
So the key is to ask what does the symbol mean to you?
Let me give you a current example.
I really love this example.
A woman was praying for someone in a time of ministry and she has a vision.
her mind's eye she sees a picture.
(19:47):
she's awake but she sees a picture and it's a picture of a yellow peacock.
She's thinking what is that?
Peacocks aren't yellow.
What does that mean?
And she's trying to think through the interpretation and she just comes up with nothing.
And then she says to the woman she's praying for look I keep seeing this picture of ayellow peacock.
(20:08):
Does that mean anything to you?
Now the woman says
That's the password for everything in my life.
You
And as they reflected on it, they realized that God was saying, will you allow me into thesecret parts of your heart that no one else can see?
(20:32):
And so now we see the power of an image, but it was subject to the understanding of theperson who was receiving it.
And that's real key here when it comes to interpretation.
Yeah, that's great.
You mentioned a little earlier on about how in the West we can sometimes find this wholedreams and messages, know, God communicating to us through dreams, rather quite difficult.
(21:00):
Do you think that plays a part, well, it must play a part in the fact that in the West we
not that God communicates with us less in that way, maybe we're just not as aware of it,maybe.
But you definitely see, or I have in my experience, a lot more receptivity of God speakingin dreams in other cultures that are not in the West.
(21:32):
I know several people from places like Iran,
and sort of Middle Eastern countries, sort of North Africa countries as well.
We've had dreams and encounters and some of them have just come to faith through having adream.
It's amazing.
(21:52):
I know your book's got a story of someone in there.
Let's first of all, do you think that that's true?
That people in the West find it more difficult to spot God dreams or what?
Absolutely and it's because the tradition particularly the Protestant tradition hasactively rejected this.
And it's the broader context of course is the Western tradition.
(22:16):
But every culture in history apart from the West has always understood that dream visionsare a kind of doorway into the spirit world.
So it's just the West that has rejected and particularly the Protestant tradition has sowe get some of our most famous writers on the topic of hearing God's voice reject this.
They say things like it's strange, it's unreliable, you can't trust it.
(22:38):
Now, what they're saying is you do need to discern it because this is where the hiccuplies.
But in actual fact, the Western tradition has actively rejected this.
And therefore, the books that we read, the teaching that we receive, I remember veryclearly in a very large conference, very famous church conference, the keynote speaker
(22:59):
saying that this
verse in Acts chapter two at the new covenant.
means that um you know if you don't follow God's plan when you're young by the time youget get old that that that vision for your life will turn into a dream.
Completely misinterpreted what Peter was saying.
(23:21):
And so we've turned even the idea of vision.
No Joseph had a vision for his life.
No no no.
No.
He fell asleep.
He had a literal dream.
God spoke to him about a vision of leadership that he would never have imagined forhimself because he was one of the youngest in his family and he would never lead his
family.
It wasn't even on scope.
(23:42):
It was a literal dream.
But what the West has done is we've turned it into a metaphor to mean have big plans foryour life.
Follow your dreams.
Follow what you want to do.
It's not what it means.
And this is part of the rejection of the Western tradition.
So that is the context.
The problem is that people are having these experiences.
(24:03):
But no one wants to talk about it because we all feel like we're to be strange andlabelled as wacky.
I have this happens repeatedly.
I've been doing the Ministry of God conversations for nearly 20 years now.
I've travelled all around the world, particularly the West in different churches andconstantly after I have ministered people will come up to me and they will say, Tania, can
I tell you about this dream that I had that changed my life?
(24:26):
And then they would tell me this amazing God conversation and then they would say,
haven't told anyone this before.
And I would say why?
Fascinating.
And I think even as I've been promoting the book in England recently in your country I dida book tour and I would often ask you know audiences hands up if you've ever had a god
dream two thirds of the room would put their hand up.
(24:49):
But no one never talks about it.
No one teaches on it.
know this there are some books available out there but the problem with some of the booksthat are out there is that they don't connect the voice of the Holy Spirit to Jesus and
therefore they're not focused on discipleship Jesus said follow me my people hear my voiceand they follow but then he left and he sent the spirit to continue to do that and that's
(25:15):
what we see in the book of Acts.
And so there's a bit of a backstory there about why this is problematic for the church.
I understand it.
Part of the problem is that we haven't had wisdom and discernment in this area.
So people say, I have a dream and I saw the throw and then they go a bit wacky to behonest.
And so we do need some pretty clear understandings about.
(25:37):
And that's a key word that you've mentioned a couple of times there, which is discernment.
I think that that's a real key.
And I know if my wife, well, if my wife was listening to this, we've talked about dreamsin the past, and I must say she has some weird dreams.
Very, very, very odd.
(25:58):
And she, and sometimes very, very disturbing.
And she sometimes wakes up and said, I'm so thankful that my dreams, you know, aren'treal.
And I know that I dream, but I can never remember what I've dreamt.
But you do deal a little bit in your book about, well, how can we tell?
(26:22):
You know, are all dreams God dreams?
Then what about the really disturbing ones?
those from God as well?
Or surely not.
How do we separate?
How do we be discerning?
You know, so we don't get up on a Sunday morning and say, Hey, I had this really weirddream.
And everyone kind of looks at you sideways thinking, well, I don't think that was God.
(26:50):
How do we discern?
This is where neuroscience and psychology helps us a little bit.
again, when I was going on this journey, I'm not an expert in either of those areas, butit led me into trying to understand more what's happening while we sleep.
To begin with, everyone dreams for one to two hours a night.
You're not supposed to remember them.
(27:11):
You know, if you're remembering all your dreams every night, it means you are constantlybeing waken up.
So we typically only remember the one with the last one we had.
And the vast majority of our dreams, the brain restoring itself while we are sleeping.
So it's kind of like the filing cabinet is busy and the brain's incredibly clever.
(27:32):
We've got a beautiful God given mechanism of sleep that organizes our thoughts and ourmemories, processes, problems.
The brain is actively doing restorative processes as we sleep.
Studies have been done that if you stop someone dreaming.
it will they will begin to show signs of mental illness.
(27:53):
We need to dream as a part of the healing processes in our bodies.
So psychology then tells us that some of those dreams that we're having bad dreams,strange dreams will often give us an indication about what is going beneath the surface of
our lives that we're not always aware of because our conscious self doesn't necessarilywant hasn't got the scope to hear them or understand them.
(28:18):
So
you get classic examples of war veterans.
They never talk about their traumatic experiences but it comes up repeatedly in the dream.
and it's kind of acting as an alert system.
Something is wrong.
There is healing that needs to
So we wouldn't class those as god dreams, would we?
(28:39):
Definitely not.
They're human natural dreams, but they're part of the God given mechanism that makes ushuman and that leads us into health and wholeness.
So it's a wellbeing issue really, which is why it is so interesting to listen to.
But the vast majority of our dreams are natural dreams.
But now and again, you'll get this standout message that will be coherent and full ofwisdom.
(29:03):
And if there is something that stands out and it's worth going through that discernment,
process.
I think that is best illustrated in the story we've just talked about the apostle Peter onthe the rooftop with his vision of the unclean animals.
There is a discernment process to go through and it got conversations.
we have articulated that process based on 2000 years of church tradition actually andPeter's experience identifying three questions.
(29:31):
Would Jesus say this?
Is someone else saying this?
And our spiritual signs following this.
And so what we see here is a process of going, need to test what we hear, not everythingcomes from God.
It's subject to my personal influence.
And therefore, if we apply those questions, we can be able to be confident about the voicethat we're hearing is from the Holy Spirit.
(29:56):
That's really good, that's really good.
Now, there's so many more questions I could ask about the book.
Your book goes into things that you give a God dreams framework for people to use.
You dig into the discernment process, also sort of how to understand and unpack symbolismand dreams as well.
(30:16):
And a great story about Ahmed, I think he was, who's an ISIS terrorist who met God in adream.
That's all in there.
So if you are, if this has fired your imagination and or you've had a God dream or youwant to understand more about dreams and how God communicates to us through dreams and
visions, do get a copy of Tania Harris's new book, God Dreams, How to Hear God's Voice inDreams and Visions.
(30:43):
And Pete Gregg, by the way, endorses it and says it's a brilliant book.
And I would agree.
So do go and grab yourself a copy.
We'll be back.
chatting more with Tania Harris about her life and her faith just after these.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast, you can help keep it on the web.
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
(31:04):
Head over to buymeacoffee.com slash Matt McChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's show notes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian booksand authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blur podcast.
(31:26):
I'm chatting with the author Tania Harris all about her new book, Dreams.
And now at this point in the show, Tania, we'd like to peel back the cover and get to knowthe author a little bit better.
So you are currently living in Australia, is that correct?
Yes.
(31:46):
and Australia is a very big place.
So whereabouts in Australia roughly are you?
I live in Sydney.
I was raised in Melbourne.
So I live in a beautiful city.
Lots of nice beaches, I believe.
(32:06):
What do you like to do for fun?
I am a bit of an outdoorsy adventure person, so I love to hike and ski and kayak actually.
That's probably one of my favourite things to do.
But if I'm not being so active, then I'm a bit of a reader and I do love dinner partieswith friends actually, solving all the problems of the world.
(32:27):
Speaking of things to eat with dinner parties, have you got any particular favouritedishes or maybe it's like a whole sort of style of food like Thai food or Chinese food or
something like that?
I do love Italian to be honest.
I'm a big fan even though people think I'm Italian or Greek, but actually I'm not.
(32:48):
half Dutch, but I'm a fan of pasta.
Good quality pasta.
Great.
Homemade.
Have you made your own pasta before?
Definitely not.
Not about it.
I do that when other experts can do it much better.
Exactly, exactly.
(33:12):
In terms of drink, tea or coffee, what would be your go-to?
Coffee, yeah, me too.
And what's your like order if you go to a takeaway place?
Is it just like sort of a straight simple order or is it sort of a flourishinglycomplicated one?
(33:32):
I'm moving towards a bit of a flat white.
I don't know if I like too much milk, but the other thing is I'm also moving towards moredecaf because I don't want to be addicted to anything.
And I have to say, I appreciate your country is good at this.
So when I was there last, know, the hotels all had decaf.
I was so impressed.
go to America and that's just a very different story.
(33:52):
So I do enjoy it.
And all the other kinds of milk as well, strained from nuts and sorts of interestingthings.
Oats and whatnot.
Have you got any family at all?
I do, have four siblings and my mum is still alive, but they're scattered all around theworld.
(34:12):
So I don't always get to see them.
And I, as you mentioned, I do have a very cool cat.
So, but also a very beautiful spiritual family that has walked the journey with me formany years now.
I'm very thankful for.
And it's fascinating, must say, coming back to your book, you just mentioned that, wasjust the whole thing about you moving to Sydney and the whole story around that.
(34:39):
It's really, really interesting.
You have to read the book.
Yeah, it's much more storytelling it than living it.
Wow.
Isn't that always the case?
Yes.
Sounds good in a book, but when you have to walk it, wow, it's hard work.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Speaking of the Holy Spirit speaking to you, what is the Holy Spirit doing or saying toyou in your life at the moment?
(35:09):
Yeah, that's my favourite question, Matt.
You know, there's a few things at the moment.
One of them is I'm really working hard on some personal development in my ability tolisten to people.
Actually, it's quite funny.
I was doing a recording of radio spots yesterday, Matt.
You will be able to hear God Conversations spots on Premiere and UCB in your country.
(35:33):
And if you listen to what I'm saying, it's often what God is doing in my life at the time.
You know, and I'm doing a little focus.
I finished reading a book about visions of heaven with people who've had near-deathexperiences.
So I'm looking at the experiences of Stephen and Paul.
And I've been in the book of Revelation, the visions of John around heaven for quite awhile now.
(35:56):
So I've been very much reflecting on heaven and this world and this earth and what does itmean when we have a vision of heaven?
understanding what God has promised for us in the new creation.
So you know there's a lot going on and recently God spoke to me about fasting.
So yay I get to practice more fasting.
(36:17):
Which is not my favourite thing in the world to do Matt.
Well, this episode is going out in the season of Lent.
So there might be some listeners who are already undertaking fasting for Lent.
So you'll be in good company.
Have you got anything you're working on?
I know you've just released the book, Converse, God Dreams.
(36:40):
I am muddling your books up.
God Dreams.
Are you working on something else?
Is something else in the works that you can let us in on maybe?
can.
I have four books out.
Two of them the ones you mentioned for you know the popular Christian audience and thenthere's another one called the church here's God's voice for leaders and then there's
(37:01):
another one an academic book from my PhD the theology and practice of hearing God's voice.
So the next one I'm working on is for leaders again.
We're kind of cycling around the audience.
this one is really looking at the role the unique role of the Holy Spirit.
So Jesus said it's
you're good if I leave.
Now if I said to most people what would you rather have?
(37:24):
Jesus?
Having a flat white coffee with Jesus?
Or would you rather have the Holy Spirit?
What what would most people say?
I I tend to think that most of us would prefer the living breathing Jesus so we can have agood chat.
But Jesus said it's better if I leave because if I leave I will send you my spirit.
So this book is really focused on
(37:47):
Why is it better?
What is the Holy Spirit doing?
The Holy Spirit speaks in a way that's consistent with Jesus but does something uniquethat Jesus didn't do.
What was that?
And so that's the book I'm exploring and we're looking at the God conversations of the NewTestament church as well as the God conversations in contemporary life.
(38:09):
I'm a practical theologian so that's part of what my methodology is.
So currently collecting
stories and showing how they parallel with the early church and then with Jesus and howthey are unique to the work of the spirit.
So I'm super excited about this one.
Interesting, yeah, that sounds like a good one.
really good.
(38:31):
Where can people connect with you?
Are you on social media?
Have you got a website?
And where could people buy your books?
The best place is GodConversations.com.
We have all of the books available there in the links.
We have stores in major geographical centers around the world.
We also have lots of freebies, so podcasts and videos and articles and a specialdevotional plan that you can subscribe to.
(39:00):
One of the things we've found, Matt, is that hearing God's voice is not a one-off event.
It's a journey that we go on over time.
So we want to continue to equip the church with
really helpful teaching and insight in a way that connects our God conversations to Jesusthat produces transformation in us as disciples and then sends us out into the mission and
(39:22):
ministry of Jesus in the world.
So that's what we're focused on and you'll find a lot of resources there that will behelpful to you.
Well, thank you, Tania.
And for the benefit of our listeners, we'll put a link to your website in this episode'sshow notes.
So if you're listening to this and you want to find out more about Got Conversations, justclick on the show note link and it'll take you where you want to go.
(39:47):
So that just leaves you to say thank you.
Thank you, Tania, so much for joining us here on the Christian Bookblog podcast today.
It's been fantastic chatting with you all about God Dreams.
My pleasure, Matt.
Wonderful to chat.
And thank you as well for tuning in and listening to this podcast.
Don't forget an episode comes out on the first and the 15th of every month.
(40:09):
So it won't be long until I'll be back again with another amazing Christian author,finding out all about their life and their faith and equipping you with another great
Christian book to help you in your discipleship one book at a time.
Thanks for listening.
I would look forward to having the pleasure of your company again really soon.
Thank you.
(40:31):
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
Popular Podcasts
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.