April 15, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of Christian Book Blurb, host Matt McChlery engages with authors Mary and Charles Hippsley about their book, 'Reimagining the Landscape of Faith.' They explore the concept of spiritual formation, emphasizing the importance of intentional strategies in growing one's faith. The conversation delves into the metaphor of maps to illustrate personal faith journeys, the significance of self-understanding in spiritual growth, and the challenges of maturing in faith. The authors also discuss navigating spiritual plateaus and the role of spiritual practices in fostering deeper connections with God. Personal anecdotes and insights into their lives add a relatable touch to the discussion.
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With thanks to this episode's sponsors 'God Whispers are Life Changers' by Michael and Delane Salkheld
Takeaways
- Most Christians desire to love God more and be like Christ.
- Spiritual formation requires intentional strategies for change.
- Maps serve as a metaphor for understanding our faith journeys.
- Self-understanding is crucial for spiritual growth.
- Maturing in faith involves growing in self-awareness.
- Spiritual plateaus can lead to deeper engagement with God.
- Spiritual practices help recognize unconscious desires.
- Silence is a challenging yet rewarding spiritual practice.
- The authors feel a moral obligation to live out their teachings.
- Enjoying nature and simple pleasures can enhance spiritual life.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Spiritual Formation 03:32 The Map of Faith: Understanding Spiritual Landscapes 10:03 Self-Understanding in Spiritual Growth 17:20 Maturing in Faith: The Journey of Growth 19:41 Navigating Spiritual Plateaus 22:10 Spiritual Practices for Formation 30:08 Personal Insights and Fun with the AuthorsMark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors, hear
about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcleary.com.
This episode of Christian Book Blurb is sponsored by the book God Whispers Our LifeChanges by Michael and Delane Sulkeld.
(00:26):
Available now from godwhispersforlife.com.
Well, hello and welcome to this episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast, where we liketo encourage you and your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing
Christian authors and learn about their books, their lives and their faith.
I'm your host, Matt McChlery, and thank you so much for clicking on over here and joiningme today.
(00:50):
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about the landscape of spiritual formationwith the authors Mary and Charles Hippsley Have I said?
that correctly, how should I say your surname?
It was close Matt, so it's Hippsley.
Hippsley!
I was almost there, almost there.
Hippsley!
(01:10):
Well, welcome, Mary and Charles, to the Christian Book Blob.
I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today.
Now, your book is called Reimagining the Landscape of Faith, and there's a lot in thereabout spiritual formation.
Could you explain for our listeners what we mean when we talk about spiritual formation?
(01:35):
Yeah, sure, thanks.
Well, I think most Christians want to love God more and be more like Christ, which isgood, but the thing is this doesn't really happen automatically.
No matter how many sermons we sit through or how many Bible passages you read, you aren'tactually really engaging with God in such a way that you are understanding more about what
(01:57):
you're really like and what perhaps is standing in the way of you becoming more likeChrist.
So,
We see spiritual formation as the idea that you're now starting to employ intentionalstrategies to actually generate that kind of change.
And a good example that I sometimes use when talking to people is that, you know, youmight feel like, yeah, I fancy running a marathon.
(02:22):
I think I could do that.
And that would be great.
But the thing is that wish alone will not help you.
get round the 26 miles because your muscles won't have been trained, your lungs need toexpand and how they take in oxygen and all of that comes from putting in the hard yards of
early morning sessions day after day after day.
(02:45):
So it can't be a passive thing, it has to be an active thing.
And for that reason, I'm sometimes just a little bit suspect of a Christian who proudlysays, my faith has never been shaken, I'm just the same guy as I was 25 years ago.
I kind of think, oh, gosh, you what I see in the Bible is disciples who are constantlybeing changed, who are constantly having their worldviews upended or encountering
(03:10):
unexpected stuff and having to wrestle with God, having to rethink, regroup, reevaluate.
So I just wonder if we need to see faith as a much more dynamic encounter with God, notjust, I am now saved, that's great.
And think.
Maybe about how it's changing all the time, really, throughout our entire Christian lives.
(03:32):
That's really good.
And your book, Reimagining the Landscape of Faith, guess one of the clues there is in theword landscape, uses the image of a map to explain our personal journeys through life.
Why did you choose to use the image of a map and say, I don't know, any other image, maybelike a path or something like that?
(04:02):
Well, I'd say that a map is a broader metaphor than a path.
So the map describes the landscape and the terrain that we traverse as we journey, and weneed to find or pick a path through that.
(04:23):
So first of all, it's broader.
But let me just explain
really why we chose it and it was because we went to a cartography exhibition in Oxfordand it showed maps across the ages and we realized that most people across history assume
(04:44):
that maps represent reality, of take them at face value and we could just see thatparallel there because in the same way we often think about our
We think of our mental map of how the Christian life should go as definitive and complete.
(05:06):
What happens when life takes us to the edge of that faith map we currently hold or evenbeyond?
How do we navigate unknown territory?
Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking was that in the early church, the Christians wereknown as people of the way.
(05:28):
And that seems to be a much more fluid, much more expansive, because obviously it used tobe about rules and laws and that kind of thing.
So how this connects to our idea is that historically, cartography really basicallyrepresented someone's worldview, their religious or political ideologies.
(05:49):
And so do a lot of maps still today.
So as Charles has said, they aren't necessarily these objective sources of truth becausethey're drawn for particular purposes.
Even a satin avenue shows a very small part of the picture, just the bit you want.
And that's great.
But it's not the whole thing.
So all maps, including our spiritual maps, as Charles has said, have been interpreted anddisseminated within cultural and personal frames of reference.
(06:18):
For us, we wanted to draw that out by emphasizing this principle called selection andemphasis, which is exactly what a cartographer will do.
I will select what I'm going to draw, how I'm going to draw, what I'm trying to emphasizeand why.
Now spiritually, what that means for us is that when you and I become a Christian, who wasthe one who, you know, sort of communicated that truth to us, how did that happen?
(06:45):
What tends to happen, Matt, is that actually
At that point of entry, we might get stuck there for all our Christian lives because thatwas when we first received and that's how we first received the truth.
But selection and emphasis might be that actually we might need to start to widen out themap and see that the selection, if you like, and the emphasis might also need to widen.
(07:09):
So in some Christian traditions, for instance, they will emphasize things like thesacraments.
Others might emphasize signs and wonders.
for some prayer might be noisy, for some prayer might be silent.
That's fine.
That's all good until just the one path becomes definitive and you're missing the widerlandscape in that respect, which is why we kept using maps or, know, depictions of maps in
(07:34):
our book.
So there's lots else that you might be missing and also reviewing that truth that came toyou, you might have been 16 or whatever age you were.
reviewing that truth is always a good idea because it essentially means that you'regrowing up and we'll come to that the minute I know.
Yeah, it's just interesting coming back to something that Charles said a little bitearlier about having this idea in our heads of what a Christian should be or what the
(08:03):
Christian life should be.
And usually we see it through rose-tinted glasses, to use another metaphor, where you lookand you think, yes, it should be like this.
It should be all nice and we should all be happy and we should all be...
good and cheerful all the time, all smiling and there you go, that's a Christian.
(08:24):
And then all of a sudden something comes along, you get a cancer diagnosis or somethingterrible happens and all of a sudden you're thinking to yourself, well, either maybe
Christianity doesn't work and therefore I reject it or think to yourself, well, maybe I'vemisunderstood what this landscape
(08:48):
of Christianity should be like.
And as you're saying, you kind of go off the map then of what you had a preconceived idea.
And then, yeah, you need to figure it out.
But I think this is the great thing about Christianity is that it can cope with that.
(09:08):
It's us that changes.
It's not God.
God stays the same.
But yet, you know, he's big enough to cope with the trials and the misunderstandings andthe things we've got wrong or haven't quite got right yet.
But yeah, it's then trying to navigate our way back to that place.
(09:31):
Yeah, and that is the process of formation.
It's kind of how formation happens.
So you asked some poignant questions throughout your book.
And one of them that I picked up on is one, you've said is, what do I need to understandabout myself?
And this is kind of like a starting point really, if I've understood it correctly.
(09:55):
So we need to understand ourselves in order to start to grow spiritually.
Can you just explain more about this?
Sure, yeah.
Really crucial in our formation is the images we hold of God and of ourselves.
So let me just unpack that a little bit because we are the lens through which we look atGod and the world and other people.
(10:27):
We're just not aware of that most of the time.
We don't consciously think that, but we actually bring
obviously all of our human capacities, capabilities to bear on what we perceive of God.
So it's, you know, our upbringing, our cultural bias, our personality, where we've comefrom in terms of our Christian tradition, our nationality, and all of those have an impact
(10:55):
on what we select and emphasize in what we actually then believe and hold, you know,
shape of our map.
So that clearly impacts on how we might relate to God or the picture we might hold of God,which is obviously never complete.
So understanding ourself helps to see where we might have a bit of a distorted view orincomplete, yeah, and it helps us to gain a more accurate and gradually
(11:30):
more complete image as time goes by.
Hmm.
Hmm.
That's really good.
So what kind of things do we need to understand about ourselves?
Right, right.
Okay, well, building on that.
Yeah.
As, you know, as humans with all our capacities and emotions and thoughts and what haveyou, we are quite strongly influenced by very common desires and needs.
(11:58):
So think of the need to be accepted, the need to be secure or to have some kind of agencyin life.
All of that's quite natural.
But if it's left unchecked, those desires can more strongly influence, almost dictate howwe respond to people and the events we come across in life and to God.
(12:25):
So as Christians, our formation clearly involves the Holy Spirit, but it's not only theHoly Spirit, it's not just the work of God.
We have work to do as well.
And identifying those things that drive us
like, you know, I really strongly need affirmation, might drive me to do things to getaffirmation that are not particularly healthy, for example.
(12:52):
So identifying those drivers allows us to bring them before God in prayer and involve Godin affirmation to seek to surrender those things that get in the way of love for God and
love for neighbour as the Great Commandment puts it.
Thank you.
Elsewhere in your book, and you've already touched on it in this chat as well, is the,well, the Bible tells us doesn't it, to grow in spiritual maturity.
(13:27):
Grow in maturity, become mature in Christ.
Don't just be like a child but, you know, start to grow up and eventually become mature.
So
First of all, how can we start to do this?
Well, you've already mentioned it's funny, isn't it?
Because Jesus spoke about being born again.
(13:49):
And of course, we know in our natural life that we start as babies, excuse me, andtoddlers who are basically the center of their world.
They can't help it.
just, you know, that's the extent of their map, as it were.
maturing in the natural world is growing out of that, is growing towards thinking aboutothers, being aware of
(14:12):
you know, the complexity of the world, et cetera, et cetera.
So really what we're doing in our spiritual lives is the same thing that happens innatural life.
But as Pete Scazzero has already acknowledged in his book, Emotional Spirituality, somepeople aren't emotionally mature and they can't actually be spiritually mature if they're
(14:35):
not emotionally mature.
I think it's really, really obvious when people have never really, they get stuck.
basically, they never really quite grow past some of these things that Charles was talkingabout, that they're driven by desires of which they seem to be wholly oblivious.
Everybody else, or a lot of other people, can see what's really going on.
So in the spiritual world, we actually strangely need to to exercise moreself-understanding, which Christians seem reluctant to do, they don't want to pay
(15:05):
attention to self, they say, oh, it's not about me, actually...
If you are not understanding yourself, if you don't have self-awareness, then it is stillall about you, whether you want it to be or not.
So growing in spiritual maturity is first of all growing in self-awareness.
And it's ironic that paying more attention to self is the only way we learn to surrenderself and also to learn how to serve God and others meaningfully and fruitfully.
(15:34):
So...
For us, this is why we devoted two whole chapters to this particular topic, because it'sso fundamental to spiritual formation, growing in maturity.
And another way we can stay immature, again, not deliberately, but probably unconsciously,is if we allow others, whether it be the pastor of the church or even the Christian
podcast, Delight Yourself, to do all our thinking for us.
(15:57):
If we don't start to take ownership and start doing what we've already recommended, whichis review, reevaluate,
start to critique, reimagine the faith you think you have at various intervals throughoutyour life, then actually you probably are just staying with that, again, that framework
that you were originally given, which you've never questioned.
(16:19):
I used to lecture at a theological college in a private one in Oxford.
And the students that came through there were always really amazed.
They always came in very strong Christians.
But actually, they actually knew very little about how to really understand the Bible, howto understand how the Bible was put together or how to interpret the Bible, that kind of
(16:43):
thing.
So that's a really good first step, is to actually equip yourself with the tools to dothat.
But essentially, it's idea that to grow up in Christ, you have to equip yourself inexactly the same way as an adult would.
I have to learn how to do my tax form.
I don't just know that when I'm five, et cetera, et It's the same principles of equippingyourself and understanding in what ways that you are tied to your past in childish, not
(17:14):
childlike, but childish ways that really you need to grow on from.
Just as you're talking, I just had a few questions and comments really.
One of them was this whole thing about, you know, asking questions to find out, you know,what you believe in and why you believe it.
And some people who I've come across, and I guess even myself in my own life, when youreach those times of questioning and of struggle with your faith, you say, well, why do I
(17:47):
believe this?
I think sometimes people start to feel a little bit guilty or maybe they feel, I shouldn'tbe having these thoughts.
I'm a Christian.
Why am I doubting it?
I'm a Christian.
Why am I questioning these things all of a sudden?
But actually, as you were talking, it's just part of the rhythm of spiritual formation.
(18:10):
You're actually being grown in those moments.
actually, your map, as it were, is being expanded.
little bit more.
Your view of God and yourself is developing more.
So if there are any listeners out there who are having or in that time of questioning ordoubt or whatever, don't run away from God in those times.
(18:35):
Stay close to Him because it's all part of the maturing process.
And another thing which kind of leads me into my next question really is
This idea of a plateau you were saying about when we start off like babies, because we'reborn again and then we grow up.
(18:56):
Usually people, in my experience, people who are new to faith are really excited and thenthey're growing fast and everything's new and shiny and everything's happening at a
hundred miles an hour for them.
But then once you've been a believer for a while, things start to slow down, things startto reach a kind of a
(19:18):
plateau, I guess some might even call it, I start to feel a bit stuck in my walk with God.
And you do deal with that in your book.
You talk about ways where people might feel a little bit lost or stuck on their spiritualjourney.
First of all, what can cause this to happen?
(19:41):
Well, okay, if I could just step back one step to answer the question.
It's good just to clarify, think, that in God's economy, there's often a purpose in ourgetting stuck or feeling a bit lost, which sounds a bit counterintuitive.
(20:03):
But, you know, the signs might be perhaps our old ways of reading scripture.
or worship or prayer don't have the life they used to have.
Perhaps we've hit a sort of a life crisis that's knocked our expectations.
(20:23):
As you said earlier, maybe you have a worrying diagnosis, medical diagnosis, we think,well, what's going on?
That sort of point at which we're feeling a little bit lost, not quite sure how to go on,can often be a point at which God
calls us, invites us to come deeper.
(20:45):
So it's really important.
So we kind of hit a fork in the road at that point and we can head off, can feeldisappointed, disillusioned and head off in one direction or we can pause and re-engage
and really seek God but in perhaps in different way.
(21:07):
So that's a...
That's a choice that we have, but we can easily miss it because quite often it involves ameasure of difficulty, of pain, of crisis.
So our first impulse is to pray for rescue.
God, get me out of here.
This is unpleasant.
Well, actually, it's the way in which we walk with God through these experiences thatsometimes it's the very means by which God helps us to grow.
(21:36):
So if you
a moment paraphrase James 1 where he says consider it pure joy my brothers and sisterswhenever you face trials of any kind he says it's because you know the testing of your
faith produces perseverance and maturity so it's these moments when this wasn't on my mapokay my map must be too small in those are the moments in which we find ourselves growing
(22:06):
and expanding
and being formed spiritually.
That's great.
And part of spiritual formation is using spiritual disciplines, or sometimes they'recalled spiritual practices, to help us to grow to become more like Jesus by doing the
things that he did.
Could you just explain what spiritual practices are?
(22:28):
Hmm, sure.
Essentially they're just ways of praying that many of which have been used over centuriesactually.
They're really well tried and tested.
Some are more recent.
They don't have a power in themselves, if you like.
(22:49):
It's not like a magic formula.
But if you are able to practice them regularly, then they help
to put us in a place where we can do business with God.
God can do business with us as we work together on our spiritual formation.
Many of the spiritual practices are really helpful in helping us to recognize ourunconscious desires.
(23:15):
know, what are the things that are driving us?
Why did I do that?
Why did I say that?
So they help us to, if you like, interrogate our hearts.
You know, Psalm four encourages us to
to commune with our hearts.
So they kind of offer a reality check which helps to align us with the spirit ofPhilippians 2, so not holding tightly to our own self-interest but being open-handed with
(23:44):
those so that we can help to serve God and to serve others.
Now just to give our listeners a little bit of an idea as to what some of these spiritualpractices might be, I thought it'd be interesting just to ask you in your personal lives
(24:04):
which spiritual practices have you found to be the most rewarding?
Yeah, that's really interesting because it was really only out of a situation that we'vejust been describing, a sort of what you might call a dark night of the soul, that I
discovered the profound value of silence.
You know, most of us were raised in a very wordy Christian tradition.
(24:28):
We hear the word, we speak the word, we sing the word.
It's all very wordy.
So silence is non-words.
It's non-verbal.
And I don't just mean, you know, finding a silent place or space or silent room.
I mean cultivating an inner silence where you're not using words as your main way ofengaging with God.
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And it has many benefits, one of which is that it enables you to find other ways that youcommunicate with God.
So some people say to me, yes, I'm quieting down my thoughts so I can hear God speak.
But that's actually still
really in the same vein of words.
So what about if you weren't expecting God to speak?
(25:14):
What about if like you with a really good friend or your spouse or whoever, you're justsitting on a park bench and you're just looking at the view together and you're not
speaking, but actually a lot of a lot is happening in your sensory kind of world.
Other senses are coming to the fore and you feel
(25:36):
sense of the other person without actually speaking to them.
If that's making sense, I'm trying to draw analogies here to make this easier.
But I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.
Becoming silent is increasingly difficult in our world, particularly with social media.
Cessation of all sorts of stimulus and essentially taking your thoughts captive to Christ,as scripture encourages us to do, is a very countercultural thing.
(26:04):
It's not an easy thing.
I myself struggled when I went for instance to a silent retreat, not so much with thesilence with God, but the silence with other people at meal times and that kind of thing.
Silence is a very difficult spiritual practice.
The reason why I'm mentioning it is because I feel for me that it's absolutely core, it'salmost like the foundation stone to some of the other spiritual practices.
(26:29):
If you can learn to be quiet with God and just allow space to exist between you.
and cultivate something that actually has future benefits when you try other spiritualpractices really too.
Yeah, so if I can just drop another one in briefly, I find a practice called Examinereally helpful and again it's hundreds of years old but it's being used quite widely these
(27:00):
days as well and that involves taking some time out in the quiet, perhaps at the end ofthe day, to sit with God and to look back over
the day, almost review the day with God and you know, asking the Holy Spirit to give youinsight, to remember, well where was it?
(27:25):
Where did I encounter God today?
Where did I offer love to others today?
Where was their life, if you like?
And the alternative to that, well where didn't I?
Where did I lose sight of God?
Where did I withhold love?
But perhaps crucially underneath those questions, why?
(27:48):
What was going on?
What drew me to God today?
What pulled me away from God and being a conduit for God's love today?
And that can be really helpful as we seek to understand ourselves and the things thatdrive us and those things that we would like to lay down.
(28:13):
as we grow and mature.
So examine, I find to be a really helpful regular.
Wonderful, thank you very much and we'll be back just after these chatting a little bitmore with Mary and Charles about their life and their faith, so do join us after these.
God Whispers Our Life Changes, a book by Michael and Delaine Sulkeld, is an incredibletrue-life story of Michael and Delaine, an ordinary couple who listened as God led them
(28:44):
from joblessness to starting and growing a business, then into ministries that have takenthem from underprivileged neighbourhoods in the United States to rural villages and orphan
care in sub-Saharan Africa.
It is a story of life lessons by example.
of the elation and frustration in starting and growing a business, interwoven withheartwarming and heartbreaking stories of serving in their community and abroad, and how
(29:14):
God led the way in it all.
God Whispers are Life Changes by Michael and Delaine Sulkeld is described as a must-readfor anyone looking for God's direction in serving others.
It is available now.
from their website, GodWhispersForLife.com, as well as on other online retailers.
(29:38):
Do grab yourself a copy today.
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(30:00):
and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blood podcast.
I've been chatting with Mary and Charles Hippsley about their new book, The Landscape ofSpiritual Formation, and do get a copy if you have been interested in the discussion we've
(30:22):
been having a little bit before this.
Now, this part of the show, we like to get to know the authors a little bit better.
So, Mary and Charles, what do you like to do for fun?
Shall I speak to this?
I'm a person who has always had an interest in art.
(30:45):
I've worked at two art museums in my professional life, but I never really had much timeto actually start to do art and just enjoy it.
I used to go to exhibitions and I still do, but I've sort made myself a little dedicatedart space and started fiddling around.
And interestingly,
It works in much the same way as I've just been talking about.
It helps to take my mind and my heart, my whole being into another space, which is sortof, you know, if you'd like unplugged from the world and really just makes a kind of an
(31:17):
immersive space, which is really, really helpful.
So I really enjoy doing that.
Yeah, I like astronomy.
I trained as a scientist.
So what I do is I try to take pictures of some very beautiful objects that are in thenight sky, but you can't actually see with the naked eye.
(31:39):
So I enjoy that.
really, there's some beautiful iridescent clouds of gas and remnants of supernovae andthings like that.
So I shall be out tonight because it's a clear night using my telescope to try andcapture...
Can you see them through the telescope?
though.
(32:00):
Or do you kind of just have to point it and then press click and hope that you've gotsomething?
Exactly, exactly.
have to point it, you have to probably take about, I don't know, several hours worth ofexposure.
So imagine holding your camera still.
It's tracking across the sky.
But yeah, so it's, yeah, it's, it's challenging.
I enjoyed that.
(32:22):
Interesting, fascinating, okay.
Have you got anything that you enjoy eating or favorite places that you enjoy visiting orgoing to?
We are the classic National Trust members, I've got to say.
Which kind of combines those two things sometimes.
(32:44):
Lifetime membership card
Absolutely, it's all about the tea room and the nice views.
So we just enjoy getting into nature that way and also some beautiful buildings.
Yeah, fantastic.
How many castles or have you lost count?
completely lost count.
And obviously, mana houses and whatnot.
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
(33:04):
fantastic.
I like the odd National Trust as well.
That's great.
So because you like going to National Trust tea rooms, what's your favorite thing to eatwhen you're there?
Mmm.
Well, we like a good coffee.
And I have to say I'm partial to the odd cake here and there.
Charles will not have coffee with that if there's not cake.
(33:26):
mean, there's just...
okay, you have to have both together.
Yeah, think so.
What about what scones and clotted cream?
We'll have to moderate the clotted cream these days.
Okay, alright.
So have you got any family at all?
(33:46):
We had two grandchildren and one lovely grandson.
that's, you know, one, one, one, our daughter lives quite close to us where we live herein Oxfordshire and the son and his wife live the other side of London, but it's
accessible.
yeah.
great and I imagine they keep you on your toes when they are visiting or you're visiting.
(34:09):
yes, yes, was a very busy family Christmas.
Yes.
Just on that, just on that verge of walking.
So getting mobile.
It's all they don't understand that it's all downhill from here.
They think it's going to be a great achievement.
(34:29):
Yes, I've got three children myself.
My youngest is five.
We're of slightly moving away from the toddler sort of mayhem stage now.
But then my eldest is on the verge of becoming a teenager.
all new fans.
(34:52):
All very exciting, interesting.
Have you got anything
coming up, you've released this book, Reimagining the Landscape of Faith.
Are you thinking of writing another book?
Or is this it?
You've done this, it's out in the world and whew, never again.
(35:15):
Where are you up to in all of that?
Well, I don't know if you've ever actually done a project like this with your wife, butthat's actually quite demanding.
It's certainly we certainly had quite a few robust conversations as one does with workcolleagues when you're trying to do a project together.
yes, we're still talking and we're still married.
(35:35):
So it's all good.
But we we were kicking around a few ideas.
But you know what?
Actually, the biggest challenge, which might surprise some of the people listening tothis, is that we feel
very morally obliged to actually do the things that we've recommended in our own book andto actually recall them to mind and to prayerfully sort of, excuse me, think about how we
(36:00):
might actually integrate them into our own lives is actually a full-time job in itself.
We've been doing a lot of promotion and all that kind of thing, so that's been takingtime.
But mostly what I've been really sort of taken up with is how do we live out?
Obviously we wouldn't write down things that we didn't think were true and werelife-giving and actually worked.
(36:21):
And so really I feel we are going to run a retreat in a couple of weeks time on the backof our book.
But really that's just a question.
So that's an opportunity for people who've read the book to sort of take it a few stepsfurther.
So we kind of feel with integrity we have to make sure that we are those few steps furtherif that makes sense.
So that's kind of what we're, that's what I'm taking up with.
(36:45):
Yeah, I think something may emerge.
We both work as spiritual directors who are people that walk alongside others in theirjourney of faith.
you know, a lot of that book came out of the experience of spending time one to one withpeople as they journey.
So I think what we need to do is to continue our own journey and listen to others on thatand we'll see what else emerges.
(37:14):
Hmm.
Well, that sounds great.
And where can people find you on social media, et cetera?
And more, where can people buy your books?
Yes, well in terms of buying it, the best place to buy it is BRF online.
That's the Bible Reading Fellowship people, they are the publishers and it comes fastestfrom them.
(37:34):
You can get it from other good online bookstores, tends to be a little bit slower.
We have a website which is www.reimaginefaithlandscape.com.
So reimagine faith.
landscape or one word.com and we post blogs there from time to time.
(37:58):
It's quite new.
So there's a couple there right now, but there's another couple of blogs.
And there's a link to the RF online on the website.
So that's the best way to find out more about it.
Wonderful, thank you.
And for the benefit of our listeners, I will put a link to your website,reimaginedfaithlandscape.com in the show notes of this episode.
(38:24):
So they could just click on that and it'll take them straight to where you guys are.
So yeah, thank you so much for joining me today.
It's been fantastic chatting with you both all about spiritual formation and about yourbook, Reimagining the Landscape of Faith.
Thank you for joining me.
Thanks really appreciated it.
to give a really big thank you to the sponsors of today's episode.
(38:48):
This is the book God Whispers Our Life Changes by Michael and Delaine Selkeld.
That book is available now from their website, GodWhispersForLife.com.
Do go and check it out.
And thank you as well for listening to this episode of the Christian Book Blur podcast.
Another one drops really soon in just a couple of weeks.
They come out on the 1st and the 15th of every month.
(39:09):
So I'll be back really soon chatting with another Christian author.
all about their books, their life and their faith to help you in your discipleship onebook at a time.
So do join me again then and yeah, I'll see you soon.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host, Matt McChlery.
(39:30):
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
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This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors, hear
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Also, why not check out my website, mattmcleary.com.
This episode of Christian Book Blurb is sponsored by the book God Whispers Our LifeChanges by Michael and Delane Sulkeld.
(00:26):
Available now from godwhispersforlife.com.
Well, hello and welcome to this episode of the Christian Book Blurb podcast, where we liketo encourage you and your discipleship one book at a time as we meet some amazing
Christian authors and learn about their books, their lives and their faith.
I'm your host, Matt McChlery, and thank you so much for clicking on over here and joiningme today.
(00:50):
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about the landscape of spiritual formationwith the authors Mary and Charles Hippsley Have I said?
that correctly, how should I say your surname?
It was close Matt, so it's Hippsley.
Hippsley!
I was almost there, almost there.
Hippsley!
(01:10):
Well, welcome, Mary and Charles, to the Christian Book Blob.
I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today.
Now, your book is called Reimagining the Landscape of Faith, and there's a lot in thereabout spiritual formation.
Could you explain for our listeners what we mean when we talk about spiritual formation?
(01:35):
Yeah, sure, thanks.
Well, I think most Christians want to love God more and be more like Christ, which isgood, but the thing is this doesn't really happen automatically.
No matter how many sermons we sit through or how many Bible passages you read, you aren'tactually really engaging with God in such a way that you are understanding more about what
(01:57):
you're really like and what perhaps is standing in the way of you becoming more likeChrist.
So,
We see spiritual formation as the idea that you're now starting to employ intentionalstrategies to actually generate that kind of change.
And a good example that I sometimes use when talking to people is that, you know, youmight feel like, yeah, I fancy running a marathon.
(02:22):
I think I could do that.
And that would be great.
But the thing is that wish alone will not help you.
get round the 26 miles because your muscles won't have been trained, your lungs need toexpand and how they take in oxygen and all of that comes from putting in the hard yards of
early morning sessions day after day after day.
(02:45):
So it can't be a passive thing, it has to be an active thing.
And for that reason, I'm sometimes just a little bit suspect of a Christian who proudlysays, my faith has never been shaken, I'm just the same guy as I was 25 years ago.
I kind of think, oh, gosh, you what I see in the Bible is disciples who are constantlybeing changed, who are constantly having their worldviews upended or encountering
(03:10):
unexpected stuff and having to wrestle with God, having to rethink, regroup, reevaluate.
So I just wonder if we need to see faith as a much more dynamic encounter with God, notjust, I am now saved, that's great.
And think.
Maybe about how it's changing all the time, really, throughout our entire Christian lives.
(03:32):
That's really good.
And your book, Reimagining the Landscape of Faith, guess one of the clues there is in theword landscape, uses the image of a map to explain our personal journeys through life.
Why did you choose to use the image of a map and say, I don't know, any other image, maybelike a path or something like that?
(04:02):
Well, I'd say that a map is a broader metaphor than a path.
So the map describes the landscape and the terrain that we traverse as we journey, and weneed to find or pick a path through that.
(04:23):
So first of all, it's broader.
But let me just explain
really why we chose it and it was because we went to a cartography exhibition in Oxfordand it showed maps across the ages and we realized that most people across history assume
(04:44):
that maps represent reality, of take them at face value and we could just see thatparallel there because in the same way we often think about our
We think of our mental map of how the Christian life should go as definitive and complete.
(05:06):
What happens when life takes us to the edge of that faith map we currently hold or evenbeyond?
How do we navigate unknown territory?
Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking was that in the early church, the Christians wereknown as people of the way.
(05:28):
And that seems to be a much more fluid, much more expansive, because obviously it used tobe about rules and laws and that kind of thing.
So how this connects to our idea is that historically, cartography really basicallyrepresented someone's worldview, their religious or political ideologies.
(05:49):
And so do a lot of maps still today.
So as Charles has said, they aren't necessarily these objective sources of truth becausethey're drawn for particular purposes.
Even a satin avenue shows a very small part of the picture, just the bit you want.
And that's great.
But it's not the whole thing.
So all maps, including our spiritual maps, as Charles has said, have been interpreted anddisseminated within cultural and personal frames of reference.
(06:18):
For us, we wanted to draw that out by emphasizing this principle called selection andemphasis, which is exactly what a cartographer will do.
I will select what I'm going to draw, how I'm going to draw, what I'm trying to emphasizeand why.
Now spiritually, what that means for us is that when you and I become a Christian, who wasthe one who, you know, sort of communicated that truth to us, how did that happen?
(06:45):
What tends to happen, Matt, is that actually
At that point of entry, we might get stuck there for all our Christian lives because thatwas when we first received and that's how we first received the truth.
But selection and emphasis might be that actually we might need to start to widen out themap and see that the selection, if you like, and the emphasis might also need to widen.
(07:09):
So in some Christian traditions, for instance, they will emphasize things like thesacraments.
Others might emphasize signs and wonders.
for some prayer might be noisy, for some prayer might be silent.
That's fine.
That's all good until just the one path becomes definitive and you're missing the widerlandscape in that respect, which is why we kept using maps or, know, depictions of maps in
(07:34):
our book.
So there's lots else that you might be missing and also reviewing that truth that came toyou, you might have been 16 or whatever age you were.
reviewing that truth is always a good idea because it essentially means that you'regrowing up and we'll come to that the minute I know.
Yeah, it's just interesting coming back to something that Charles said a little bitearlier about having this idea in our heads of what a Christian should be or what the
(08:03):
Christian life should be.
And usually we see it through rose-tinted glasses, to use another metaphor, where you lookand you think, yes, it should be like this.
It should be all nice and we should all be happy and we should all be...
good and cheerful all the time, all smiling and there you go, that's a Christian.
(08:24):
And then all of a sudden something comes along, you get a cancer diagnosis or somethingterrible happens and all of a sudden you're thinking to yourself, well, either maybe
Christianity doesn't work and therefore I reject it or think to yourself, well, maybe I'vemisunderstood what this landscape
(08:48):
of Christianity should be like.
And as you're saying, you kind of go off the map then of what you had a preconceived idea.
And then, yeah, you need to figure it out.
But I think this is the great thing about Christianity is that it can cope with that.
(09:08):
It's us that changes.
It's not God.
God stays the same.
But yet, you know, he's big enough to cope with the trials and the misunderstandings andthe things we've got wrong or haven't quite got right yet.
But yeah, it's then trying to navigate our way back to that place.
(09:31):
Yeah, and that is the process of formation.
It's kind of how formation happens.
So you asked some poignant questions throughout your book.
And one of them that I picked up on is one, you've said is, what do I need to understandabout myself?
And this is kind of like a starting point really, if I've understood it correctly.
(09:55):
So we need to understand ourselves in order to start to grow spiritually.
Can you just explain more about this?
Sure, yeah.
Really crucial in our formation is the images we hold of God and of ourselves.
So let me just unpack that a little bit because we are the lens through which we look atGod and the world and other people.
(10:27):
We're just not aware of that most of the time.
We don't consciously think that, but we actually bring
obviously all of our human capacities, capabilities to bear on what we perceive of God.
So it's, you know, our upbringing, our cultural bias, our personality, where we've comefrom in terms of our Christian tradition, our nationality, and all of those have an impact
(10:55):
on what we select and emphasize in what we actually then believe and hold, you know,
shape of our map.
So that clearly impacts on how we might relate to God or the picture we might hold of God,which is obviously never complete.
So understanding ourself helps to see where we might have a bit of a distorted view orincomplete, yeah, and it helps us to gain a more accurate and gradually
(11:30):
more complete image as time goes by.
Hmm.
Hmm.
That's really good.
So what kind of things do we need to understand about ourselves?
Right, right.
Okay, well, building on that.
Yeah.
As, you know, as humans with all our capacities and emotions and thoughts and what haveyou, we are quite strongly influenced by very common desires and needs.
(11:58):
So think of the need to be accepted, the need to be secure or to have some kind of agencyin life.
All of that's quite natural.
But if it's left unchecked, those desires can more strongly influence, almost dictate howwe respond to people and the events we come across in life and to God.
(12:25):
So as Christians, our formation clearly involves the Holy Spirit, but it's not only theHoly Spirit, it's not just the work of God.
We have work to do as well.
And identifying those things that drive us
like, you know, I really strongly need affirmation, might drive me to do things to getaffirmation that are not particularly healthy, for example.
(12:52):
So identifying those drivers allows us to bring them before God in prayer and involve Godin affirmation to seek to surrender those things that get in the way of love for God and
love for neighbour as the Great Commandment puts it.
Thank you.
Elsewhere in your book, and you've already touched on it in this chat as well, is the,well, the Bible tells us doesn't it, to grow in spiritual maturity.
(13:27):
Grow in maturity, become mature in Christ.
Don't just be like a child but, you know, start to grow up and eventually become mature.
So
First of all, how can we start to do this?
Well, you've already mentioned it's funny, isn't it?
Because Jesus spoke about being born again.
(13:49):
And of course, we know in our natural life that we start as babies, excuse me, andtoddlers who are basically the center of their world.
They can't help it.
just, you know, that's the extent of their map, as it were.
maturing in the natural world is growing out of that, is growing towards thinking aboutothers, being aware of
(14:12):
you know, the complexity of the world, et cetera, et cetera.
So really what we're doing in our spiritual lives is the same thing that happens innatural life.
But as Pete Scazzero has already acknowledged in his book, Emotional Spirituality, somepeople aren't emotionally mature and they can't actually be spiritually mature if they're
(14:35):
not emotionally mature.
I think it's really, really obvious when people have never really, they get stuck.
basically, they never really quite grow past some of these things that Charles was talkingabout, that they're driven by desires of which they seem to be wholly oblivious.
Everybody else, or a lot of other people, can see what's really going on.
So in the spiritual world, we actually strangely need to to exercise moreself-understanding, which Christians seem reluctant to do, they don't want to pay
(15:05):
attention to self, they say, oh, it's not about me, actually...
If you are not understanding yourself, if you don't have self-awareness, then it is stillall about you, whether you want it to be or not.
So growing in spiritual maturity is first of all growing in self-awareness.
And it's ironic that paying more attention to self is the only way we learn to surrenderself and also to learn how to serve God and others meaningfully and fruitfully.
(15:34):
So...
For us, this is why we devoted two whole chapters to this particular topic, because it'sso fundamental to spiritual formation, growing in maturity.
And another way we can stay immature, again, not deliberately, but probably unconsciously,is if we allow others, whether it be the pastor of the church or even the Christian
podcast, Delight Yourself, to do all our thinking for us.
(15:57):
If we don't start to take ownership and start doing what we've already recommended, whichis review, reevaluate,
start to critique, reimagine the faith you think you have at various intervals throughoutyour life, then actually you probably are just staying with that, again, that framework
that you were originally given, which you've never questioned.
(16:19):
I used to lecture at a theological college in a private one in Oxford.
And the students that came through there were always really amazed.
They always came in very strong Christians.
But actually, they actually knew very little about how to really understand the Bible, howto understand how the Bible was put together or how to interpret the Bible, that kind of
(16:43):
thing.
So that's a really good first step, is to actually equip yourself with the tools to dothat.
But essentially, it's idea that to grow up in Christ, you have to equip yourself inexactly the same way as an adult would.
I have to learn how to do my tax form.
I don't just know that when I'm five, et cetera, et It's the same principles of equippingyourself and understanding in what ways that you are tied to your past in childish, not
(17:14):
childlike, but childish ways that really you need to grow on from.
Just as you're talking, I just had a few questions and comments really.
One of them was this whole thing about, you know, asking questions to find out, you know,what you believe in and why you believe it.
And some people who I've come across, and I guess even myself in my own life, when youreach those times of questioning and of struggle with your faith, you say, well, why do I
(17:47):
believe this?
I think sometimes people start to feel a little bit guilty or maybe they feel, I shouldn'tbe having these thoughts.
I'm a Christian.
Why am I doubting it?
I'm a Christian.
Why am I questioning these things all of a sudden?
But actually, as you were talking, it's just part of the rhythm of spiritual formation.
(18:10):
You're actually being grown in those moments.
actually, your map, as it were, is being expanded.
little bit more.
Your view of God and yourself is developing more.
So if there are any listeners out there who are having or in that time of questioning ordoubt or whatever, don't run away from God in those times.
(18:35):
Stay close to Him because it's all part of the maturing process.
And another thing which kind of leads me into my next question really is
This idea of a plateau you were saying about when we start off like babies, because we'reborn again and then we grow up.
(18:56):
Usually people, in my experience, people who are new to faith are really excited and thenthey're growing fast and everything's new and shiny and everything's happening at a
hundred miles an hour for them.
But then once you've been a believer for a while, things start to slow down, things startto reach a kind of a
(19:18):
plateau, I guess some might even call it, I start to feel a bit stuck in my walk with God.
And you do deal with that in your book.
You talk about ways where people might feel a little bit lost or stuck on their spiritualjourney.
First of all, what can cause this to happen?
(19:41):
Well, okay, if I could just step back one step to answer the question.
It's good just to clarify, think, that in God's economy, there's often a purpose in ourgetting stuck or feeling a bit lost, which sounds a bit counterintuitive.
(20:03):
But, you know, the signs might be perhaps our old ways of reading scripture.
or worship or prayer don't have the life they used to have.
Perhaps we've hit a sort of a life crisis that's knocked our expectations.
(20:23):
As you said earlier, maybe you have a worrying diagnosis, medical diagnosis, we think,well, what's going on?
That sort of point at which we're feeling a little bit lost, not quite sure how to go on,can often be a point at which God
calls us, invites us to come deeper.
(20:45):
So it's really important.
So we kind of hit a fork in the road at that point and we can head off, can feeldisappointed, disillusioned and head off in one direction or we can pause and re-engage
and really seek God but in perhaps in different way.
(21:07):
So that's a...
That's a choice that we have, but we can easily miss it because quite often it involves ameasure of difficulty, of pain, of crisis.
So our first impulse is to pray for rescue.
God, get me out of here.
This is unpleasant.
Well, actually, it's the way in which we walk with God through these experiences thatsometimes it's the very means by which God helps us to grow.
(21:36):
So if you
a moment paraphrase James 1 where he says consider it pure joy my brothers and sisterswhenever you face trials of any kind he says it's because you know the testing of your
faith produces perseverance and maturity so it's these moments when this wasn't on my mapokay my map must be too small in those are the moments in which we find ourselves growing
(22:06):
and expanding
and being formed spiritually.
That's great.
And part of spiritual formation is using spiritual disciplines, or sometimes they'recalled spiritual practices, to help us to grow to become more like Jesus by doing the
things that he did.
Could you just explain what spiritual practices are?
(22:28):
Hmm, sure.
Essentially they're just ways of praying that many of which have been used over centuriesactually.
They're really well tried and tested.
Some are more recent.
They don't have a power in themselves, if you like.
(22:49):
It's not like a magic formula.
But if you are able to practice them regularly, then they help
to put us in a place where we can do business with God.
God can do business with us as we work together on our spiritual formation.
Many of the spiritual practices are really helpful in helping us to recognize ourunconscious desires.
(23:15):
know, what are the things that are driving us?
Why did I do that?
Why did I say that?
So they help us to, if you like, interrogate our hearts.
You know, Psalm four encourages us to
to commune with our hearts.
So they kind of offer a reality check which helps to align us with the spirit ofPhilippians 2, so not holding tightly to our own self-interest but being open-handed with
(23:44):
those so that we can help to serve God and to serve others.
Now just to give our listeners a little bit of an idea as to what some of these spiritualpractices might be, I thought it'd be interesting just to ask you in your personal lives
(24:04):
which spiritual practices have you found to be the most rewarding?
Yeah, that's really interesting because it was really only out of a situation that we'vejust been describing, a sort of what you might call a dark night of the soul, that I
discovered the profound value of silence.
You know, most of us were raised in a very wordy Christian tradition.
(24:28):
We hear the word, we speak the word, we sing the word.
It's all very wordy.
So silence is non-words.
It's non-verbal.
And I don't just mean, you know, finding a silent place or space or silent room.
I mean cultivating an inner silence where you're not using words as your main way ofengaging with God.
(24:54):
And it has many benefits, one of which is that it enables you to find other ways that youcommunicate with God.
So some people say to me, yes, I'm quieting down my thoughts so I can hear God speak.
But that's actually still
really in the same vein of words.
So what about if you weren't expecting God to speak?
(25:14):
What about if like you with a really good friend or your spouse or whoever, you're justsitting on a park bench and you're just looking at the view together and you're not
speaking, but actually a lot of a lot is happening in your sensory kind of world.
Other senses are coming to the fore and you feel
(25:36):
sense of the other person without actually speaking to them.
If that's making sense, I'm trying to draw analogies here to make this easier.
But I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.
Becoming silent is increasingly difficult in our world, particularly with social media.
Cessation of all sorts of stimulus and essentially taking your thoughts captive to Christ,as scripture encourages us to do, is a very countercultural thing.
(26:04):
It's not an easy thing.
I myself struggled when I went for instance to a silent retreat, not so much with thesilence with God, but the silence with other people at meal times and that kind of thing.
Silence is a very difficult spiritual practice.
The reason why I'm mentioning it is because I feel for me that it's absolutely core, it'salmost like the foundation stone to some of the other spiritual practices.
(26:29):
If you can learn to be quiet with God and just allow space to exist between you.
and cultivate something that actually has future benefits when you try other spiritualpractices really too.
Yeah, so if I can just drop another one in briefly, I find a practice called Examinereally helpful and again it's hundreds of years old but it's being used quite widely these
(27:00):
days as well and that involves taking some time out in the quiet, perhaps at the end ofthe day, to sit with God and to look back over
the day, almost review the day with God and you know, asking the Holy Spirit to give youinsight, to remember, well where was it?
(27:25):
Where did I encounter God today?
Where did I offer love to others today?
Where was their life, if you like?
And the alternative to that, well where didn't I?
Where did I lose sight of God?
Where did I withhold love?
But perhaps crucially underneath those questions, why?
(27:48):
What was going on?
What drew me to God today?
What pulled me away from God and being a conduit for God's love today?
And that can be really helpful as we seek to understand ourselves and the things thatdrive us and those things that we would like to lay down.
(28:13):
as we grow and mature.
So examine, I find to be a really helpful regular.
Wonderful, thank you very much and we'll be back just after these chatting a little bitmore with Mary and Charles about their life and their faith, so do join us after these.
God Whispers Our Life Changes, a book by Michael and Delaine Sulkeld, is an incredibletrue-life story of Michael and Delaine, an ordinary couple who listened as God led them
(28:44):
from joblessness to starting and growing a business, then into ministries that have takenthem from underprivileged neighbourhoods in the United States to rural villages and orphan
care in sub-Saharan Africa.
It is a story of life lessons by example.
of the elation and frustration in starting and growing a business, interwoven withheartwarming and heartbreaking stories of serving in their community and abroad, and how
(29:14):
God led the way in it all.
God Whispers are Life Changes by Michael and Delaine Sulkeld is described as a must-readfor anyone looking for God's direction in serving others.
It is available now.
from their website, GodWhispersForLife.com, as well as on other online retailers.
(29:38):
Do grab yourself a copy today.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast, you can help keep it on the web.
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
Head over to BuyMeACoffee.com slash Matt McChlery to make a donation.
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(30:00):
and help this podcast to keep supporting Christian books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blood podcast.
I've been chatting with Mary and Charles Hippsley about their new book, The Landscape ofSpiritual Formation, and do get a copy if you have been interested in the discussion we've
(30:22):
been having a little bit before this.
Now, this part of the show, we like to get to know the authors a little bit better.
So, Mary and Charles, what do you like to do for fun?
Shall I speak to this?
I'm a person who has always had an interest in art.
(30:45):
I've worked at two art museums in my professional life, but I never really had much timeto actually start to do art and just enjoy it.
I used to go to exhibitions and I still do, but I've sort made myself a little dedicatedart space and started fiddling around.
And interestingly,
It works in much the same way as I've just been talking about.
It helps to take my mind and my heart, my whole being into another space, which is sortof, you know, if you'd like unplugged from the world and really just makes a kind of an
(31:17):
immersive space, which is really, really helpful.
So I really enjoy doing that.
Yeah, I like astronomy.
I trained as a scientist.
So what I do is I try to take pictures of some very beautiful objects that are in thenight sky, but you can't actually see with the naked eye.
(31:39):
So I enjoy that.
really, there's some beautiful iridescent clouds of gas and remnants of supernovae andthings like that.
So I shall be out tonight because it's a clear night using my telescope to try andcapture...
Can you see them through the telescope?
though.
(32:00):
Or do you kind of just have to point it and then press click and hope that you've gotsomething?
Exactly, exactly.
have to point it, you have to probably take about, I don't know, several hours worth ofexposure.
So imagine holding your camera still.
It's tracking across the sky.
But yeah, so it's, yeah, it's, it's challenging.
I enjoyed that.
(32:22):
Interesting, fascinating, okay.
Have you got anything that you enjoy eating or favorite places that you enjoy visiting orgoing to?
We are the classic National Trust members, I've got to say.
Which kind of combines those two things sometimes.
(32:44):
Lifetime membership card
Absolutely, it's all about the tea room and the nice views.
So we just enjoy getting into nature that way and also some beautiful buildings.
Yeah, fantastic.
How many castles or have you lost count?
completely lost count.
And obviously, mana houses and whatnot.
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
(33:04):
fantastic.
I like the odd National Trust as well.
That's great.
So because you like going to National Trust tea rooms, what's your favorite thing to eatwhen you're there?
Mmm.
Well, we like a good coffee.
And I have to say I'm partial to the odd cake here and there.
Charles will not have coffee with that if there's not cake.
(33:26):
mean, there's just...
okay, you have to have both together.
Yeah, think so.
What about what scones and clotted cream?
We'll have to moderate the clotted cream these days.
Okay, alright.
So have you got any family at all?
(33:46):
We had two grandchildren and one lovely grandson.
that's, you know, one, one, one, our daughter lives quite close to us where we live herein Oxfordshire and the son and his wife live the other side of London, but it's
accessible.
yeah.
great and I imagine they keep you on your toes when they are visiting or you're visiting.
(34:09):
yes, yes, was a very busy family Christmas.
Yes.
Just on that, just on that verge of walking.
So getting mobile.
It's all they don't understand that it's all downhill from here.
They think it's going to be a great achievement.
(34:29):
Yes, I've got three children myself.
My youngest is five.
We're of slightly moving away from the toddler sort of mayhem stage now.
But then my eldest is on the verge of becoming a teenager.
all new fans.
(34:52):
All very exciting, interesting.
Have you got anything
coming up, you've released this book, Reimagining the Landscape of Faith.
Are you thinking of writing another book?
Or is this it?
You've done this, it's out in the world and whew, never again.
(35:15):
Where are you up to in all of that?
Well, I don't know if you've ever actually done a project like this with your wife, butthat's actually quite demanding.
It's certainly we certainly had quite a few robust conversations as one does with workcolleagues when you're trying to do a project together.
yes, we're still talking and we're still married.
(35:35):
So it's all good.
But we we were kicking around a few ideas.
But you know what?
Actually, the biggest challenge, which might surprise some of the people listening tothis, is that we feel
very morally obliged to actually do the things that we've recommended in our own book andto actually recall them to mind and to prayerfully sort of, excuse me, think about how we
(36:00):
might actually integrate them into our own lives is actually a full-time job in itself.
We've been doing a lot of promotion and all that kind of thing, so that's been takingtime.
But mostly what I've been really sort of taken up with is how do we live out?
Obviously we wouldn't write down things that we didn't think were true and werelife-giving and actually worked.
(36:21):
And so really I feel we are going to run a retreat in a couple of weeks time on the backof our book.
But really that's just a question.
So that's an opportunity for people who've read the book to sort of take it a few stepsfurther.
So we kind of feel with integrity we have to make sure that we are those few steps furtherif that makes sense.
So that's kind of what we're, that's what I'm taking up with.
(36:45):
Yeah, I think something may emerge.
We both work as spiritual directors who are people that walk alongside others in theirjourney of faith.
you know, a lot of that book came out of the experience of spending time one to one withpeople as they journey.
So I think what we need to do is to continue our own journey and listen to others on thatand we'll see what else emerges.
(37:14):
Hmm.
Well, that sounds great.
And where can people find you on social media, et cetera?
And more, where can people buy your books?
Yes, well in terms of buying it, the best place to buy it is BRF online.
That's the Bible Reading Fellowship people, they are the publishers and it comes fastestfrom them.
(37:34):
You can get it from other good online bookstores, tends to be a little bit slower.
We have a website which is www.reimaginefaithlandscape.com.
So reimagine faith.
landscape or one word.com and we post blogs there from time to time.
(37:58):
It's quite new.
So there's a couple there right now, but there's another couple of blogs.
And there's a link to the RF online on the website.
So that's the best way to find out more about it.
Wonderful, thank you.
And for the benefit of our listeners, I will put a link to your website,reimaginedfaithlandscape.com in the show notes of this episode.
(38:24):
So they could just click on that and it'll take them straight to where you guys are.
So yeah, thank you so much for joining me today.
It's been fantastic chatting with you both all about spiritual formation and about yourbook, Reimagining the Landscape of Faith.
Thank you for joining me.
Thanks really appreciated it.
to give a really big thank you to the sponsors of today's episode.
(38:48):
This is the book God Whispers Our Life Changes by Michael and Delaine Selkeld.
That book is available now from their website, GodWhispersForLife.com.
Do go and check it out.
And thank you as well for listening to this episode of the Christian Book Blur podcast.
Another one drops really soon in just a couple of weeks.
They come out on the 1st and the 15th of every month.
(39:09):
So I'll be back really soon chatting with another Christian author.
all about their books, their life and their faith to help you in your discipleship onebook at a time.
So do join me again then and yeah, I'll see you soon.
Goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host, Matt McChlery.
(39:30):
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
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