September 15, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of the Christian Book Blurb, host Matt McChlery engages with authors Gavin Calver and Phil Knox about their book 'Good News People.' They explore the essence of evangelicalism, the meaning of the good news, and the importance of unity and diversity within the church. The conversation delves into the role of the Evangelical Alliance, the experiences of different churches, and how to navigate disagreements. They also discuss five key postures of faith that are crucial for living in today's cultural moment and share messages of hope for the church.
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Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Visit the Evangelical Alliance UK's website eauk.org
Takeaways
- To be an evangelical means to believe in the Bible as the inspired word of God.
- The good news is an announcement, a story, and a person—Jesus.
- Unity within the church is essential for making Jesus known.
- Friendship is a powerful antidote to division in the church.
- The church is experiencing a moment of growth and openness.
- We need to hold the tension between substance and style in our faith.
- The Evangelical Alliance aims to equip and inspire the church.
- Diversity in the church reflects the love of Jesus across cultures.
- We must prioritize our theological convictions while being kind and brave.
- The book 'Good News People' is designed for communal exploration and discussion.
Sound Bites
"The good news is an announcement." "We need to prioritize friendship." "We need to step into the season God is doing."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Good News People 01:07 Defining Evangelicalism 04:08 Understanding the Good News 07:16 Unity and Diversity in Evangelicalism 09:20 The Role of the Evangelical Alliance 11:07 Experiences Across Different Churches 15:17 Navigating Disagreements 18:41 Five Postures of Faith 20:48 Messages for the Church 22:05 Getting to Know the Authors 27:35 The Holy Spirit's Work in Their Lives 29:54 Future Projects and Resources
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors, hear
about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery.com
Hello and welcome to the Christian Book Blurb, where we like to encourage you and yourdiscipleship one book at a time, as we meet some amazing Christian authors and learn about
(00:25):
their books, their lives and their faith.
I'm your host Matt McChlery.
Thank you for joining me and for clicking over here today to learn about today's topic.
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about being good news people with the authorsGavin Calver and Phil Knox.
Hello and welcome to the show!
(00:47):
Thank you, great to be with you.
Thanks, Matt.
What a joy.
And Phil, I must congratulate you because you are the first author to have a doubleappearance on the show, so welcome back to you
It's great to be back Matt loved our first time together also great to have brought afriend this time
(01:07):
Yeah, excellent, That's great.
And I'm starting to do a few more co-write interviews.
So that's exciting.
That's great to have you both.
Now your book, Good News People, is all about evangelicalism and what it means to be anevangelical.
Now I know that some listeners of the show, because it's an internet-based thing,
(01:33):
lots of people in America also tune in to this show.
So can you just define what we mean by evangelical?
Because we're in the UK and I know there's sort of the term evangelical used in America aswell.
Is it the same sort of thing?
Is it different?
(01:54):
Where do we stand and what does it look like?
I'll probably take this one Matt.
I think to be honest, I don't want to talk about other nations because I'm not part ofthem.
I don't really understand them.
I can only talk about what it really means in the UK to be an evangelical.
But what it means for us to be an evangelical is taken from the work of a guy called DavidBevington and it strikes four different attributes to be an evangelical in the UK.
(02:16):
The first is this.
We believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.
stop changing scripture to baptised culture and change culture with the truth and the pageof the word of God.
we're people of the word.
Secondly, we believe the death and resurrection of Jesus, single most important thingthat's ever happened.
Thirdly, we believe in the need for conversion.
You don't come to faith by us most if you get on your knees and you meet the saviour.
(02:39):
And fourthly, we believe in being active in the world, making the world more like thekingdom.
That's where a heart for social action and other things has come throughout the history ofevangelicalism.
So it's those four things.
are people of the word, death and resurrection, conversion and activism.
And then the other element that we always talk about is no one part of the church willchange the UK on its own.
(03:00):
So there's over 18 network streams or denominations within our membership.
And what we say is to be an evangelical means to say that we want to work with others totogether make Jesus known.
We want to have the kind of unity Jesus prays for in John 17, that it'd be so united theworld to be drawn to himself.
So I think that kind of gives a wraparound understanding of what it means here.
(03:21):
And that's always our focus and is the focus in the book because we're writing into UKevangelicalism, though I think it will help inspire and provoke other nations.
But really we're writing into this context.
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks, Gavin.
So Phil, what defines us?
Because use the term good news people and evangelicals sort of interchangeably throughoutthe book.
(03:46):
what define, I know Gavin's given us a sort of few steps of what that means, but what isthe good news?
What is this good news that we carry?
And I know it's kind of like, I kind of know the answer, but I'm asking it because, youknow,
who knows who's listening to this?
And they might be saying, well, what does this good news?
What do we mean by that?
(04:08):
Yeah, so we love the etymology of words and evangelical comes to the Greek word.
We're not as clever as we look.
Evangelical comes from the Greek word evangel, which just means good news.
So we don't think the word evangelical is redundant, but we like the translation of goodnews people.
And so what we do in the book is we look at what the good news is in terms of throughthree different lenses.
(04:32):
First of all, that the good news is an announcement.
So, euangelion, which is the Greek for good news, wasn't originally a Christian word, itwas an announcement that something has changed.
But when Jesus says that he has come to proclaim the good news, he talks about the kingdomof God.
So the good news is that the kingdom of God in Jesus has come near and that we can liveunder his rule.
(04:55):
It's that freedom has been won for us from sin and death, and that allegiance with thekingdom of God means forgiveness for our past.
God's presence in our present and hope for the future.
So we talk in terms of the fact that the good news is an announcement.
That's what Jesus does in Mark one when comes on the scene.
But it's also a story.
So we have to hold the tension.
And one of the things we invite the reader to do in the book is hold the tension betweenthe kind of simplicity and the complexity of the gospel.
(05:22):
So Tim Keller's words, it's a pool in which a toddler can paddle, but also an elephant canswim.
And we quite like that because the whole story of Jesus
is the gospel.
There's a reason that they are chapters long, not just a sentence.
But as evangelists, as people of the evangel, we need to sum up the gospel.
so evangelists have for many years have done that, least of all, not least of all, Jesus,who in John 3.16 says that God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only son
(05:52):
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Paul does similarly in 1 Corinthians 15, when he says the gospel is that Christ died forour sins according to the scriptures.
was buried on the third day, was raised.
Other people like Tom Wright have given more academic definitions of the gospel, but it'sa story that's both very simple and both very complex as well.
But finally, so we talk about it being an announcement, a story, but finally we also talkabout the fact that the gospel's a person, that we're not kind of saying this is a kind of
(06:19):
giving accent to a bunch of intellectual truths.
The good news has a name, the evangel has a name and his name's Jesus.
So that's where we land in the book and what it is to be a good news person.
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks, Phil.
Now you've mentioned I'm holding things in tension.
Now in the book you mentioned a few other things as well that we might need to hold intension, maybe around topics of unity and that sort of thing.
(06:47):
Gavin, what else do we need to hold in tension?
I think there's a number of things that stand together as we move forward.
And when you run a unity organization, which is what the Evangelical Alliance is, you haveto work out that which you will die on a hill for and that which you can say, okay, there
can be a difference of opinion on this.
So many would talk about what's primary, what's secondary.
(07:10):
Now with respect, Matt, that is probably a six podcast series as to what is theologicallyprimary and
But we do have to work out what is it that we're really going to go after and what can wehave a disagreement on?
You know, I think often that is the difference between substance and style.
We talk about this a bit in the book.
But actually the substance doesn't change, but style can change like the wind.
(07:30):
Over my years in youth ministry, for example, many young people left the church overstyle, never over Jesus.
And so I think we have to hold in tension some of those things.
We also talk about a number of postures in the book and we may cover those further.
for example, in leading EA, when I took over leading the Evangelical Alliance, I want tolead a brave and kind EA.
(07:51):
Now those two things, there is a little tension there between them, but actually they dogo together.
You can be outrageously brave and incredibly kind.
So for example, I'll use Phil as an example, because it would obviously never happen.
Where I had to receive a complaint about what Phil had been doing in his job.
If the complaints about the substance,
That's cool in some ways, as long as it aligns with what we believe.
(08:13):
But if the complaints about his posture or he was unkind or he dehumanized someone or hetreated them in a way that made them feel they lost their agency or whatever it might be,
we've got a problem because our posture really matters.
So our posture and our substance go together too.
So those kind of things.
And what we're trying to do is trying to humanize what it means to be a good news person,bringing hope and yet also being relatable to people who've not yet discovered that good
(08:36):
news.
Yeah, you just mentioned there, work, both of you work for the evangelical alliance.
And of course the books of centers around that.
Some people listening may not know what the evangelical alliance is or what it does.
So what is it?
Evangelical is the largest and oldest unity movement of evangelicals in the UK.
We've existed since 1846 and we do two really simple things.
(09:00):
First of all, we want to equip and inspire the whole church in the UK to make Jesus known.
So we're a membership organization, around 600 organizations, 3000 churches and 27,000individuals.
We want to equip our members to make Jesus known so that every single person in the UnitedKingdom has the opportunity to know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.
But secondly, we speak up at the highest levels of government on issues that really matterto Christians.
(09:24):
Why?
First of all, because if we don't, who will?
Secondly, because the church is doing an extraordinary job to bless communities across theUK, making a huge difference, billions and billions of pounds worth of social value that
the UK evangelical church adds to the UK each year.
So we want to tell government that story.
But thirdly, because there's some increasingly contentious issues on which we need tospeak out on.
(09:48):
on behalf of the evangelical church.
Issues like free speech, why free speech?
Because it should never be a hate crime to declare that Jesus is the way, the truth andthe life.
And there's loads of examples of that that we've done and made a big difference as wespeak on behalf of all of us evangelicals in the corridor of power.
And if your listeners are listening to this, how can they get involved?
How can we represent them?
Then we would love them to check out the EA website and join us as personal member,because the government asks us how many members we have, we need to give a number.
(10:15):
So by adding your voice to that number, you're helping us speak on behalf of you.
So that's a little of what the EO does.
That's great.
And it's really important that we have representation in those places that make decisions,that make laws to have a voice in that process.
So thank you for what you guys do.
And do check out the Evangelical Alliance website.
(10:36):
We'll give you more information about that at the end of the show a little bit later on.
But you mentioned that you're a unity organization and the book, I love it.
You give lots of examples.
going out to different churches, different places, different contexts.
Gavin, you tell us, paint a picture for us of some of the types of churches, because youtalk about substance and style, so how might the style of evangelical Christianity differ
(11:05):
between different places you visit?
Wow, yeah, no, I wish I could take all of the listeners with me sometimes to see some ofwhat we see.
So as an example, both Phil and I would do quite a lot of Sunday morning preaching acrossthe country.
You only have the name of the church.
You don't really know what it's like.
It's the first worship song that tells you what it's like.
Is it an arms in the air kind of day or hands in the pockets?
(11:27):
Is it a day to be fully expressively yourself or should you wind it in a little bit?
Is it a place for greater depth or for greater ministry off the bat?
My wife will often say what time are you home?
And I can say 2.14pm because the church has never gone over an hour in 140 years.
Other times I'll say hopefully today.
We're both translated regularly into other languages.
(11:47):
On rare occasions we're considered young, we're often considered old.
You might be the only white person in the room, you might be only white person in theroom.
You might be speaking to teenagers, you might be speaking to retirees.
There's such a diversity.
I would almost...
back with everything I believe that there is not a more diverse and inclusive, in theright word, group of people in the United Kingdom than the Church.
(12:11):
We can get people together around a table that nothing else in culture can.
The church I go to, it's not massive, it's a church of about 70, but within that 70there's over 20 different ethnicities.
You tell me something else in the place I live that would gather that diversity in thatspace.
being family together, loving together, across ethnicities, across age groups, acrossgenders, across class.
(12:35):
And I think that's the joy.
And the joy is the commonality is that we love Jesus and we want to make Jesus known.
But I wish, Matt, that instead of just talking about it, I could take you and you couldsee, you could come with me when I'm translating into Punjabi, or you could come somewhere
else where actually I'm being really restrained because in that context I'm a bit much,you could, you know, it'd be great to take people with us.
(12:57):
But believe you me, the diversity of style is amazing, but in the substance, we loveJesus.
There's no opening just yet for me Gav's driver.
I get invited some places as well and as you say you do sometimes just get the churchname.
So what do do with the problem of shirts?
Now because sometimes you know where you go it might be a t-shirt kind of day or it mightbe a kind of buttons and collar you might even need a tie and a jacket so do you take a
(13:28):
wardrobe with you just in case?
How does that work?
I can tell you, can tell you YouTube is safe today.
Since the pandemic with most churches going online, what I almost always do before goingto church on a Sunday is look what the pastor wore the week before when he preached.
And if I can match my wardrobe, I've got a very limited wardrobe, by the way, if I canmatch my wardrobe to what the pastor wore, then that feels to me to be a win.
(13:53):
I'm still a bit old school Matt, to be honest.
It's different at gatherings in the summer, it's a bit different, but I have neverpreached in a church in shorts ever.
And I've never preached in a church in a t-shirt ever.
And only in recent years have I ever considered preaching in jeans.
I don't know what it is, but it must be something from my granddad who bought into me.
(14:14):
And I remember when Phil and I first met each other 20 odd years ago, we would say youmatched a pastor.
and before YouTube you would have a tie in your pocket, would go with a jacket, becauseyou can always add the tie.
I think also church is getting a bit more casual in some settings, but in other settings,especially with reverse mission where it's coming back to the UK, the UK didn't just
(14:36):
export Christianity, it exported Sunday best.
And so you have to be careful as a Brit to not turn up and be the scruffiest person in theroom with something that people are trying to do to honour God.
It must never be a distraction how you appear.
And so we try to fit in.
That's great.
Now, your book also talks about, because the Evangelical Alliance, as just mentioned, issuch a diverse group of people, which is wonderful, but with diversity can come
(15:06):
difficulty.
It can be disagreement and misunderstanding sometimes.
So what would your advice be?
Or what do do when we disagree?
How do we disagree?
Well,
rather than following the rest of the culture and just kind of, I don't know, blamingothers or cancelling others or bad mouthing others.
How do we do this?
(15:27):
Yeah, you're going to get me on one of my passions here, Matt, and that's friendship.
Because ultimately, when unity is difficult, we need to prioritise friendship.
Our world is so incredibly divisive.
And as Gav shared about the diversity within the church, I think one of the antidotes tothe division in our world is the unity within the church.
(15:47):
And this narrative that you can't be friends with people you disagree with is justnonsense.
We need to get we need to we need to be better than that as the church.
And the biblical precedent for this is Jesus and the disciples.
So you take a look at Matthew and Simon.
Matthew was not just a tax collector.
He was the worst type of tax collector.
was what was known in the culture as a little moquez.
(16:08):
Sounds rubbish even, doesn't it, you little moquez?
He was a little moquez.
Simon was a zealot.
And zealots were the kind of religious freedom fighters of their day.
They would have killed Romans and killed tax collectors.
Can you imagine the first moment when you've got Simon and Matthew in the room together?
It's extraordinary that Jesus pulls together and unites people of completely differentpolitical views.
(16:29):
And the church is the same.
So the evangelical church is the same.
So just before the last general election, we did a piece of research where we went to ourmembership and said, how are you planning to vote in this next general election?
And we were spread across all the major political parties.
And you know what?
If it's good enough for the disciples, it should be good enough for us.
And I think we evangelicals need to be better known for our friendships.
(16:50):
which is why the last chapter in the book is around being the tension we hold betweenbeing united and diverse.
And Gav has a little saying, what do say Gav?
There's one thing that we'll do liberally.
Yeah, the only thing that EA does liberally is make friends.
We think that's important.
mean, because here's the thing, Matt, in our world, you just keep finding more people.
And you keep finding groups of people that are totally with us, but don't know we exist orvice versa.
(17:14):
And so we want to be there for people.
We want to make friends.
But we also want to make friends with those that people would perceive as being againstus.
Because it's important that out of relationship you have a different understanding.
I have a...
a friend whose worldview is very different to the EAs and they'll often ring me and say,Gav, obviously I disagree with what you've said, but the way you said that landed really
(17:36):
well or the way you did this came across really well.
And I think that's important.
And the other thing as well as well why we need to make friends widely is people arefinding more and more moments where they feel hopeless and they don't know what to do.
We need to be in the space and relationship to tell people that in those moments there'sonly really one answer.
And I can't help but think that in coming Christmas times and other things,
(17:59):
Our churches need to be full up because we bring our friends to church.
But if you haven't got the friends, can't bring them to church.
So the friendship goes across the piece really.
it's fun, isn't it?
It's really fun to be friends with a variety of people.
Why would you want to be in an echo chamber?
I don't really understand.
Now that's a good point.
Coming back to your book Good News People, you've split it into two parts of what webelieve and then also you have a second part called How Should We Live?
(18:27):
And in that second part, How Should We Live, you identify five postures of faith that youalluded to earlier on in our discussion.
So can you just explain what these five postures are that you believe are crucial
on how we live in this cultural moment.
Yeah, this is a good test, isn't it?
If you can remember your own book.
(18:48):
This is where as co-authors you can depend on one another, but I'll have a go.
So first of all, need to be brave and kind.
Then we need to be realistic and hopeful.
We need to go for decisions and make disciples.
We need to keep the substance the same while changing the style.
And we need to be united and diverse.
There you go, that's five in it.
There you go.
Sorry, so it's the Gavs impact a bit of being brave and kind.
(19:09):
The realistic and hopeful is about being, we are people of hope, but the challenge foroptimists like Gavin and I is we often are often accused of being glass half full people
and we recognize life's often hard.
So we hold that intention.
The paradigm for that is 2 Corinthians 4.
have this treasure in jars of clay.
We hold that intention in that chapter.
The decisions and disciples thing, again, is about a kind of, we are card carryingevangelists, but we also need real
(19:35):
depth as well as breadth as evangelicals.
The substance and style is, Gavs, unpacked that a little in terms of making sure we holdfirmly to scripture and the Bible, but actually change the style like the wind to see as
many people rich as possible and united and diverse.
We've touched on that across the diversity of the evangelical church, but also the unitednature and the need to do that because of Jesus' prayer in John 17 that we might be one so
(20:00):
that the world might not.
Yeah, really good, really good.
So do go and get your copy of Good News People, hopefully evangelicals, yesterday, todayand tomorrow.
So I've read it.
It is a really good read and yeah, lots of interesting stories and also practical stuffand yeah, really inspiring stuff.
(20:21):
So thank you guys for that.
Now, before we have a short break, if you had
message in a nutshell that you wanted to communicate with Christians within the churchtoday in this cultural moment as you call it.
What would you say?
We'll do one each I guess.
I think for me it's quite simple.
Hold your nerve theologically, don't compromise.
(20:43):
And absolutely go for it in sharing the gospel because the ground has not been thisfertile in my lifetime.
Yeah, similarly, have similar hearts, but for me, I think there's something extraordinaryhappening in this cultural moment.
So the stats this year, for most of our lifetimes, the graph has been going down in termsof church attendance.
There's something amazing happening at the moment.
Two million more people are in church now than were six years ago.
(21:05):
29 % of all students say they read the Bible at least once a week.
Bible sales are up 87 % between 2019 and 2024.
There's something extraordinary happening at the moment.
I think my message is let's make the most of this moment.
where people have been closed previously, they might be open now.
And this posture of being good news people in a hopeless world.
think the perma-crisis in which we've been living, people are feeling the weight of that.
(21:29):
We are people of hope, we're people of good news.
Let's embrace that identity and absolutely go for it over the coming days.
Mmm, that's great guys.
Thank you.
We'll be back talking some more with Gavin Calver and Phil Knox just after these so staytuned.
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(21:50):
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Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blurb.
We've been chatting with Galvan Calver and Phil Knox all about their book Good NewsPeople.
(22:13):
Now, this side of the break, guys, we like to get to know the authors a little bit more.
We've been delving into the pages of your book.
Now I want to delve into the pages of your lives.
So here we go!
Where are both of you based?
I'm working for the Evangelical Alliance.
Where does that place you sort of geographically?
I'm in north west London
(22:35):
I live in Birmingham.
Okay, so do you have to commute or is there lots of sort of online meetings?
I do.
I'm in the office at least normally once a week.
But the nature of my job is that I speak two or three times a week in lots of differentplaces all over the UK.
Birmingham works quite well because it's kind of in the middle.
So you're never more than two or three hours from anywhere.
(22:55):
So this last weekend I was in the Lake District.
Next weekend I'm in Brentwood in Essex.
You can be absolutely anywhere, near a train station, near an airport.
Happy days.
Yeah.
That's great.
And what do you guys like doing for fun?
For, you know, to let your hair down?
(23:15):
I mean, this is an audio program, so people can't quite see.
I don't have much quiet on top, nor does Phil.
Gavin has a bit more follicular output going on there, but what do you guys do to relax?
I'm a sport enthusiast, Matt.
So love watching football.
also love running, water skiing.
(23:36):
My football days of playing are over sadly, because of knee injuries and actuallycurrently recovering from a knee injury at the moment.
I had knee surgery a couple of months ago.
So there's not much running happening at the moment, but I'm very tragically going tobecome a very middle-aged, middle-class man and start cycling to rehab my knee before I
can run again.
So that's my new hobby that I'm embracing over the next few months.
(23:58):
Yeah.
Mine's quite similar though.
I'm certainly not a middle-aged man in Lycra.
That's not going to happen.
But I love running.
I run regularly.
football would be my favorite escape.
I've got season tickets with my kids at the mighty AFC Wimbledon.
And it's great to escape from the realities of everything else.
But love it.
Love sport.
(24:19):
Love engaging in that.
And also I like dipping into culture.
I know that links to my job a little bit, but...
quite an enthusiast about what's going on in society, what's happening and all of that.
yeah.
Sunday Times on a Sunday is a treat if I ever get to read that in full.
Speaking of dipping into culture, does that include food and sort of exploring differentcultures through their cuisines?
(24:43):
And if you have a particular favorite at the moment?
I alluded to church before, we go to a church that is so intercultural, it's wonderful.
So even just last weekend, I went to one family for Sri Lankan cuisine and then the nextfamily, we Indian cuisine.
Now the novice might think they're the same, they're really not.
And so we love the taste of the world and I live in one of the most diverse parts ofLondon, go to a very diverse church.
(25:07):
And so that's part of the adventure really.
No, very much so, very much so.
It's always disappointing when you realise that you're having British food on a particularday, because I'm not sure our cuisine is the envy of the world.
And Phil, what about you?
Do you enjoy any particular thing?
Is it bangers and mash all the way?
An ideal day off for me, is I often preach on a Sunday.
An ideal day off for me is a Monday.
(25:29):
So I'll go and sit in a coffee shop in the morning and read.
And then on the way back, we'll visit the supermarket to buy the ingredients for someMiddle Eastern food usually.
Monday night is late night in our household.
And so I almost always will cook.
Got some very nice Middle Eastern cookbooks over the years and working my way throughthose, which I hope is a treat for my wife.
I certainly enjoy cooking it.
(25:49):
So that's great.
And in your coffee shop, what's your go to order, Phil?
What's your typical, let's order this because I'm in a coffee shop.
and probably many of your listeners won't be the same as me.
I like a peppermint latte
okay.
There you go, there you go.
Gavin pulled a face at that.
What's your go-to, Gavin?
(26:10):
very dull.
Why Americano is skim milk?
Very boring, but you know, if they bake beans well, it's nice.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm a cappuccino chap.
But I know some of the younger listeners are more into this matcha, matcha kind of teastuff.
That's quite big in the younger generations.
So don't quite do coffee.
But anyway, there you go.
(26:31):
You live and you learn.
They're great.
Chocolate or sweets?
Chocolate.
Yeah, definitely chocolate.
and what kind because there's lots of kinds.
Is it your standard milk chocolate or really dark stuff or white chocolate or what do yougo for?
As a Birmingham dweller, I'm fiercely loyal to Cadbury's.
Hey Cadbury's Cadbury world in Birmingham isn't it?
(26:54):
I've been there.
I've seen the funny little animatronic people singing funny songs as you go around.
Yeah, that's great.
think I'm aero probably.
That's not...
yeah.
I like- Is it the mint arrow?
No, no, no.
Now, don't mess about, plain milk chocolate.
My family loved this marvellous creations nonsense where you have dairy milk full ofrubbish.
(27:16):
I'm like, no, no, the rubbish out, have the chocolate.
Okay, all right, good.
So let me ask both of you, you could take turns, let's start with Gavin.
What is the Holy Spirit doing in your life at the moment?
Is he saying something to you or doing something with you at the moment?
Yeah, I think so.
think there's a refining going on.
(27:38):
I've been really challenged in recent weeks to ditch distractions in order to focus moreon my walk with the Lord.
And I think the other thing I'd say is we've had some really precious times as a family inrecent weeks.
It's partly my daughter's about to move away.
And we've had some really precious times where the Lord's united us and the Spirit hasused my children to speak.
(27:59):
I probably wouldn't share it here.
very personal, speaks from very personal, very direct stuff to me that I needed to hearand I'm not sure I would have received from anyone else.
And so that's been an interesting thing as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Thank you, Phil.
Yeah, I mean, think for me that the Lord's been speaking to me about seasons and so untilprobably the end of last year, been in a real summer season, but I had a really hard first
(28:23):
few months of this year where it felt like winter and challenges with my body and justfelt like winter.
I think sometimes there's stuff that God can only do in the winter seasons of our lifethat he can't do in the summer.
And so I learned in that season to really depend on him.
It feels like
it's been, that's changed again.
So I feel like I'm back in much more of a summer season at the moment.
(28:46):
but also I think for us as a church, recognizing what the spirit is doing in the church,we need to step into that as a season.
And so for me, I feel profoundly called in this season to be a Barnabas to the church, toencourage Christians to really go for it in being good news people and reaching out to
those around them, but also encouraging leaders, both Gav and I, as we go around thecountry, some of our most valuable work is actually spent.
(29:09):
over coffee or over dinner with leaders.
Just bring an encouragement.
I think that's a real posture for us as the EA, but also for people like Gavin and I whoget to come alongside leaders who are offered lonely, but also in a season where God's
doing so much to say, look, here's what's happening across the UK.
Here's how we can make the most of it in our own local context.
Yeah that's great, that's great.
(29:30):
You guys are incredibly busy.
I know there's other books that the Evangelical Alliance have put out and I'm hoping tofeature some more on the show in the future, but do you have anything on the boil?
Are you working on the next book or it might be a project related to this book or you knowis there something coming up?
(29:54):
Not for me.
There is no chance of another book.
Now there'll be many things from this book.
We've done a small group resource.
We're going to do a big church read.
We're going to do all kinds of things to help people access this book.
But I think this is the sixth book I've written on my own or with someone.
And actually it's the first time I've written one where I think it has a much longer talethan any of the others.
(30:17):
I think this is a really timely book.
It is writing about what the Lord's doing.
and I think it will hopefully help redeem the evangelical term for the next decade.
So it might be that I think the next thing I would write would be a second edition of thisif needed.
I don't think there's, this feels like the book of the moment really.
(30:38):
Yeah, great.
Phil, I know you've had other books.
You've got one on friendship as well and before this one and the one we spoke about on aprevious episode called Story Bearer.
Have you got anything bubbling in the background?
No, not at this stage.
My work, my project work over the next probably couple of years at least is helping thechurch make the most of the missional moments in which we're in.
(31:01):
So we released earlier this year some really significant research into how adults arecoming to faith.
So where the big headlines of pieces like the Quiet Revival talk about what's happening interms of people coming to faith in the UK, we feel as the Evangelical Alliance, the Lord
has positioned us to say how it's happening.
So that research talked to 280 people who'd become Christians as adults in the last fiveyears to talk about their journeys.
(31:25):
A huge amount of my work, as well as talking about our postures as good news people, whichleans into some of that, is helping the whole church make the most of this moment and
identify the pathways by which people are coming to faith so that we might be the mosteffective we can be in our mission in evangelism.
Really great, really interesting.
Thank you guys.
So where can people find your book Good News People and where can people learn more aboutthe Evangelical Alliance and find the other research and resources that you've been
(31:53):
mentioning?
everywhere in some ways you can find a book wherever you get your Christian books from youcan find a book but my number one recommendation to any listeners would be if you're not a
member of the Evangelical Alliance become one it only costs three pound a month and we'llsend you a book so you know if people join the EA to get one as well because it explains
who and what we are
Also on eauk.org you can find all the resources and research we're talking about.
(32:17):
You can find more stuff on Good News People and you can also, going forward in culture,when there are those chaotic moments which we go through and you need some help or you
want to lean into some of the advocacy space in government or you want to write to your MPor any of sort of stuff, it's a good place to be.
The EA website will help you with what you need and if you think we're missing anythingbecause the Alliance is for the Church, get in touch with us.
(32:39):
when we hear from two or three members saying what about X we start thinking we might havemissed something here we need to lean in so speak to us and encounter us and let's go
forward together.
And just to reiterate what Gav said about the small group resources, that there's a reasonthe book's called Good News People and not Good News Person.
We really think this is a book to be journeyed through together.
(33:02):
So the reason we've done the small group stuff is to really help churches engage.
All of my books have been journeyed in small groups as well as by individuals.
And we really hope that people can spark discussion, maybe even encounter some of thatunity we talk about.
so explicitly in the book, but also kind of go through it together and that the wholechurch can benefit from it, not just individuals.
(33:25):
That's fantastic.
Well, Gavin and Phil, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
It's been great chatting to you both.
Thanks, Matt.
And thank you for listening to this episode of the Christian Book Blur podcast.
It comes out on the 1st and the 15th of every month, so it won't be long before I'm backagain speaking to another Christian author, all about their books, their life and their
(33:48):
faith, to encourage you in your discipleship one book at a time.
Thank you for the pleasure of your company and I look forward to seeing you again soon.
Thank you and goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought to you by author and songwriter Matt McChlery Get abehind the scenes glimpse into the lives of some of your favourite Christian authors, hear
about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website, mattmcchlery.com
Hello and welcome to the Christian Book Blurb, where we like to encourage you and yourdiscipleship one book at a time, as we meet some amazing Christian authors and learn about
(00:25):
their books, their lives and their faith.
I'm your host Matt McChlery.
Thank you for joining me and for clicking over here today to learn about today's topic.
Now on today's show, I'm going to be talking about being good news people with the authorsGavin Calver and Phil Knox.
Hello and welcome to the show!
(00:47):
Thank you, great to be with you.
Thanks, Matt.
What a joy.
And Phil, I must congratulate you because you are the first author to have a doubleappearance on the show, so welcome back to you
It's great to be back Matt loved our first time together also great to have brought afriend this time
(01:07):
Yeah, excellent, That's great.
And I'm starting to do a few more co-write interviews.
So that's exciting.
That's great to have you both.
Now your book, Good News People, is all about evangelicalism and what it means to be anevangelical.
Now I know that some listeners of the show, because it's an internet-based thing,
(01:33):
lots of people in America also tune in to this show.
So can you just define what we mean by evangelical?
Because we're in the UK and I know there's sort of the term evangelical used in America aswell.
Is it the same sort of thing?
Is it different?
(01:54):
Where do we stand and what does it look like?
I'll probably take this one Matt.
I think to be honest, I don't want to talk about other nations because I'm not part ofthem.
I don't really understand them.
I can only talk about what it really means in the UK to be an evangelical.
But what it means for us to be an evangelical is taken from the work of a guy called DavidBevington and it strikes four different attributes to be an evangelical in the UK.
(02:16):
The first is this.
We believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.
stop changing scripture to baptised culture and change culture with the truth and the pageof the word of God.
we're people of the word.
Secondly, we believe the death and resurrection of Jesus, single most important thingthat's ever happened.
Thirdly, we believe in the need for conversion.
You don't come to faith by us most if you get on your knees and you meet the saviour.
(02:39):
And fourthly, we believe in being active in the world, making the world more like thekingdom.
That's where a heart for social action and other things has come throughout the history ofevangelicalism.
So it's those four things.
are people of the word, death and resurrection, conversion and activism.
And then the other element that we always talk about is no one part of the church willchange the UK on its own.
(03:00):
So there's over 18 network streams or denominations within our membership.
And what we say is to be an evangelical means to say that we want to work with others totogether make Jesus known.
We want to have the kind of unity Jesus prays for in John 17, that it'd be so united theworld to be drawn to himself.
So I think that kind of gives a wraparound understanding of what it means here.
(03:21):
And that's always our focus and is the focus in the book because we're writing into UKevangelicalism, though I think it will help inspire and provoke other nations.
But really we're writing into this context.
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks, Gavin.
So Phil, what defines us?
Because use the term good news people and evangelicals sort of interchangeably throughoutthe book.
(03:46):
what define, I know Gavin's given us a sort of few steps of what that means, but what isthe good news?
What is this good news that we carry?
And I know it's kind of like, I kind of know the answer, but I'm asking it because, youknow,
who knows who's listening to this?
And they might be saying, well, what does this good news?
What do we mean by that?
(04:08):
Yeah, so we love the etymology of words and evangelical comes to the Greek word.
We're not as clever as we look.
Evangelical comes from the Greek word evangel, which just means good news.
So we don't think the word evangelical is redundant, but we like the translation of goodnews people.
And so what we do in the book is we look at what the good news is in terms of throughthree different lenses.
(04:32):
First of all, that the good news is an announcement.
So, euangelion, which is the Greek for good news, wasn't originally a Christian word, itwas an announcement that something has changed.
But when Jesus says that he has come to proclaim the good news, he talks about the kingdomof God.
So the good news is that the kingdom of God in Jesus has come near and that we can liveunder his rule.
(04:55):
It's that freedom has been won for us from sin and death, and that allegiance with thekingdom of God means forgiveness for our past.
God's presence in our present and hope for the future.
So we talk in terms of the fact that the good news is an announcement.
That's what Jesus does in Mark one when comes on the scene.
But it's also a story.
So we have to hold the tension.
And one of the things we invite the reader to do in the book is hold the tension betweenthe kind of simplicity and the complexity of the gospel.
(05:22):
So Tim Keller's words, it's a pool in which a toddler can paddle, but also an elephant canswim.
And we quite like that because the whole story of Jesus
is the gospel.
There's a reason that they are chapters long, not just a sentence.
But as evangelists, as people of the evangel, we need to sum up the gospel.
so evangelists have for many years have done that, least of all, not least of all, Jesus,who in John 3.16 says that God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only son
(05:52):
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Paul does similarly in 1 Corinthians 15, when he says the gospel is that Christ died forour sins according to the scriptures.
was buried on the third day, was raised.
Other people like Tom Wright have given more academic definitions of the gospel, but it'sa story that's both very simple and both very complex as well.
But finally, so we talk about it being an announcement, a story, but finally we also talkabout the fact that the gospel's a person, that we're not kind of saying this is a kind of
(06:19):
giving accent to a bunch of intellectual truths.
The good news has a name, the evangel has a name and his name's Jesus.
So that's where we land in the book and what it is to be a good news person.
Yeah, that's great.
Thanks, Phil.
Now you've mentioned I'm holding things in tension.
Now in the book you mentioned a few other things as well that we might need to hold intension, maybe around topics of unity and that sort of thing.
(06:47):
Gavin, what else do we need to hold in tension?
I think there's a number of things that stand together as we move forward.
And when you run a unity organization, which is what the Evangelical Alliance is, you haveto work out that which you will die on a hill for and that which you can say, okay, there
can be a difference of opinion on this.
So many would talk about what's primary, what's secondary.
(07:10):
Now with respect, Matt, that is probably a six podcast series as to what is theologicallyprimary and
But we do have to work out what is it that we're really going to go after and what can wehave a disagreement on?
You know, I think often that is the difference between substance and style.
We talk about this a bit in the book.
But actually the substance doesn't change, but style can change like the wind.
(07:30):
Over my years in youth ministry, for example, many young people left the church overstyle, never over Jesus.
And so I think we have to hold in tension some of those things.
We also talk about a number of postures in the book and we may cover those further.
for example, in leading EA, when I took over leading the Evangelical Alliance, I want tolead a brave and kind EA.
(07:51):
Now those two things, there is a little tension there between them, but actually they dogo together.
You can be outrageously brave and incredibly kind.
So for example, I'll use Phil as an example, because it would obviously never happen.
Where I had to receive a complaint about what Phil had been doing in his job.
If the complaints about the substance,
That's cool in some ways, as long as it aligns with what we believe.
(08:13):
But if the complaints about his posture or he was unkind or he dehumanized someone or hetreated them in a way that made them feel they lost their agency or whatever it might be,
we've got a problem because our posture really matters.
So our posture and our substance go together too.
So those kind of things.
And what we're trying to do is trying to humanize what it means to be a good news person,bringing hope and yet also being relatable to people who've not yet discovered that good
(08:36):
news.
Yeah, you just mentioned there, work, both of you work for the evangelical alliance.
And of course the books of centers around that.
Some people listening may not know what the evangelical alliance is or what it does.
So what is it?
Evangelical is the largest and oldest unity movement of evangelicals in the UK.
We've existed since 1846 and we do two really simple things.
(09:00):
First of all, we want to equip and inspire the whole church in the UK to make Jesus known.
So we're a membership organization, around 600 organizations, 3000 churches and 27,000individuals.
We want to equip our members to make Jesus known so that every single person in the UnitedKingdom has the opportunity to know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.
But secondly, we speak up at the highest levels of government on issues that really matterto Christians.
(09:24):
Why?
First of all, because if we don't, who will?
Secondly, because the church is doing an extraordinary job to bless communities across theUK, making a huge difference, billions and billions of pounds worth of social value that
the UK evangelical church adds to the UK each year.
So we want to tell government that story.
But thirdly, because there's some increasingly contentious issues on which we need tospeak out on.
(09:48):
on behalf of the evangelical church.
Issues like free speech, why free speech?
Because it should never be a hate crime to declare that Jesus is the way, the truth andthe life.
And there's loads of examples of that that we've done and made a big difference as wespeak on behalf of all of us evangelicals in the corridor of power.
And if your listeners are listening to this, how can they get involved?
How can we represent them?
Then we would love them to check out the EA website and join us as personal member,because the government asks us how many members we have, we need to give a number.
(10:15):
So by adding your voice to that number, you're helping us speak on behalf of you.
So that's a little of what the EO does.
That's great.
And it's really important that we have representation in those places that make decisions,that make laws to have a voice in that process.
So thank you for what you guys do.
And do check out the Evangelical Alliance website.
(10:36):
We'll give you more information about that at the end of the show a little bit later on.
But you mentioned that you're a unity organization and the book, I love it.
You give lots of examples.
going out to different churches, different places, different contexts.
Gavin, you tell us, paint a picture for us of some of the types of churches, because youtalk about substance and style, so how might the style of evangelical Christianity differ
(11:05):
between different places you visit?
Wow, yeah, no, I wish I could take all of the listeners with me sometimes to see some ofwhat we see.
So as an example, both Phil and I would do quite a lot of Sunday morning preaching acrossthe country.
You only have the name of the church.
You don't really know what it's like.
It's the first worship song that tells you what it's like.
Is it an arms in the air kind of day or hands in the pockets?
(11:27):
Is it a day to be fully expressively yourself or should you wind it in a little bit?
Is it a place for greater depth or for greater ministry off the bat?
My wife will often say what time are you home?
And I can say 2.14pm because the church has never gone over an hour in 140 years.
Other times I'll say hopefully today.
We're both translated regularly into other languages.
(11:47):
On rare occasions we're considered young, we're often considered old.
You might be the only white person in the room, you might be only white person in theroom.
You might be speaking to teenagers, you might be speaking to retirees.
There's such a diversity.
I would almost...
back with everything I believe that there is not a more diverse and inclusive, in theright word, group of people in the United Kingdom than the Church.
(12:11):
We can get people together around a table that nothing else in culture can.
The church I go to, it's not massive, it's a church of about 70, but within that 70there's over 20 different ethnicities.
You tell me something else in the place I live that would gather that diversity in thatspace.
being family together, loving together, across ethnicities, across age groups, acrossgenders, across class.
(12:35):
And I think that's the joy.
And the joy is the commonality is that we love Jesus and we want to make Jesus known.
But I wish, Matt, that instead of just talking about it, I could take you and you couldsee, you could come with me when I'm translating into Punjabi, or you could come somewhere
else where actually I'm being really restrained because in that context I'm a bit much,you could, you know, it'd be great to take people with us.
(12:57):
But believe you me, the diversity of style is amazing, but in the substance, we loveJesus.
There's no opening just yet for me Gav's driver.
I get invited some places as well and as you say you do sometimes just get the churchname.
So what do do with the problem of shirts?
Now because sometimes you know where you go it might be a t-shirt kind of day or it mightbe a kind of buttons and collar you might even need a tie and a jacket so do you take a
(13:28):
wardrobe with you just in case?
How does that work?
I can tell you, can tell you YouTube is safe today.
Since the pandemic with most churches going online, what I almost always do before goingto church on a Sunday is look what the pastor wore the week before when he preached.
And if I can match my wardrobe, I've got a very limited wardrobe, by the way, if I canmatch my wardrobe to what the pastor wore, then that feels to me to be a win.
(13:53):
I'm still a bit old school Matt, to be honest.
It's different at gatherings in the summer, it's a bit different, but I have neverpreached in a church in shorts ever.
And I've never preached in a church in a t-shirt ever.
And only in recent years have I ever considered preaching in jeans.
I don't know what it is, but it must be something from my granddad who bought into me.
(14:14):
And I remember when Phil and I first met each other 20 odd years ago, we would say youmatched a pastor.
and before YouTube you would have a tie in your pocket, would go with a jacket, becauseyou can always add the tie.
I think also church is getting a bit more casual in some settings, but in other settings,especially with reverse mission where it's coming back to the UK, the UK didn't just
(14:36):
export Christianity, it exported Sunday best.
And so you have to be careful as a Brit to not turn up and be the scruffiest person in theroom with something that people are trying to do to honour God.
It must never be a distraction how you appear.
And so we try to fit in.
That's great.
Now, your book also talks about, because the Evangelical Alliance, as just mentioned, issuch a diverse group of people, which is wonderful, but with diversity can come
(15:06):
difficulty.
It can be disagreement and misunderstanding sometimes.
So what would your advice be?
Or what do do when we disagree?
How do we disagree?
Well,
rather than following the rest of the culture and just kind of, I don't know, blamingothers or cancelling others or bad mouthing others.
How do we do this?
(15:27):
Yeah, you're going to get me on one of my passions here, Matt, and that's friendship.
Because ultimately, when unity is difficult, we need to prioritise friendship.
Our world is so incredibly divisive.
And as Gav shared about the diversity within the church, I think one of the antidotes tothe division in our world is the unity within the church.
(15:47):
And this narrative that you can't be friends with people you disagree with is justnonsense.
We need to get we need to we need to be better than that as the church.
And the biblical precedent for this is Jesus and the disciples.
So you take a look at Matthew and Simon.
Matthew was not just a tax collector.
He was the worst type of tax collector.
was what was known in the culture as a little moquez.
(16:08):
Sounds rubbish even, doesn't it, you little moquez?
He was a little moquez.
Simon was a zealot.
And zealots were the kind of religious freedom fighters of their day.
They would have killed Romans and killed tax collectors.
Can you imagine the first moment when you've got Simon and Matthew in the room together?
It's extraordinary that Jesus pulls together and unites people of completely differentpolitical views.
(16:29):
And the church is the same.
So the evangelical church is the same.
So just before the last general election, we did a piece of research where we went to ourmembership and said, how are you planning to vote in this next general election?
And we were spread across all the major political parties.
And you know what?
If it's good enough for the disciples, it should be good enough for us.
And I think we evangelicals need to be better known for our friendships.
(16:50):
which is why the last chapter in the book is around being the tension we hold betweenbeing united and diverse.
And Gav has a little saying, what do say Gav?
There's one thing that we'll do liberally.
Yeah, the only thing that EA does liberally is make friends.
We think that's important.
mean, because here's the thing, Matt, in our world, you just keep finding more people.
And you keep finding groups of people that are totally with us, but don't know we exist orvice versa.
(17:14):
And so we want to be there for people.
We want to make friends.
But we also want to make friends with those that people would perceive as being againstus.
Because it's important that out of relationship you have a different understanding.
I have a...
a friend whose worldview is very different to the EAs and they'll often ring me and say,Gav, obviously I disagree with what you've said, but the way you said that landed really
(17:36):
well or the way you did this came across really well.
And I think that's important.
And the other thing as well as well why we need to make friends widely is people arefinding more and more moments where they feel hopeless and they don't know what to do.
We need to be in the space and relationship to tell people that in those moments there'sonly really one answer.
And I can't help but think that in coming Christmas times and other things,
(17:59):
Our churches need to be full up because we bring our friends to church.
But if you haven't got the friends, can't bring them to church.
So the friendship goes across the piece really.
it's fun, isn't it?
It's really fun to be friends with a variety of people.
Why would you want to be in an echo chamber?
I don't really understand.
Now that's a good point.
Coming back to your book Good News People, you've split it into two parts of what webelieve and then also you have a second part called How Should We Live?
(18:27):
And in that second part, How Should We Live, you identify five postures of faith that youalluded to earlier on in our discussion.
So can you just explain what these five postures are that you believe are crucial
on how we live in this cultural moment.
Yeah, this is a good test, isn't it?
If you can remember your own book.
(18:48):
This is where as co-authors you can depend on one another, but I'll have a go.
So first of all, need to be brave and kind.
Then we need to be realistic and hopeful.
We need to go for decisions and make disciples.
We need to keep the substance the same while changing the style.
And we need to be united and diverse.
There you go, that's five in it.
There you go.
Sorry, so it's the Gavs impact a bit of being brave and kind.
(19:09):
The realistic and hopeful is about being, we are people of hope, but the challenge foroptimists like Gavin and I is we often are often accused of being glass half full people
and we recognize life's often hard.
So we hold that intention.
The paradigm for that is 2 Corinthians 4.
have this treasure in jars of clay.
We hold that intention in that chapter.
The decisions and disciples thing, again, is about a kind of, we are card carryingevangelists, but we also need real
(19:35):
depth as well as breadth as evangelicals.
The substance and style is, Gavs, unpacked that a little in terms of making sure we holdfirmly to scripture and the Bible, but actually change the style like the wind to see as
many people rich as possible and united and diverse.
We've touched on that across the diversity of the evangelical church, but also the unitednature and the need to do that because of Jesus' prayer in John 17 that we might be one so
(20:00):
that the world might not.
Yeah, really good, really good.
So do go and get your copy of Good News People, hopefully evangelicals, yesterday, todayand tomorrow.
So I've read it.
It is a really good read and yeah, lots of interesting stories and also practical stuffand yeah, really inspiring stuff.
(20:21):
So thank you guys for that.
Now, before we have a short break, if you had
message in a nutshell that you wanted to communicate with Christians within the churchtoday in this cultural moment as you call it.
What would you say?
We'll do one each I guess.
I think for me it's quite simple.
Hold your nerve theologically, don't compromise.
(20:43):
And absolutely go for it in sharing the gospel because the ground has not been thisfertile in my lifetime.
Yeah, similarly, have similar hearts, but for me, I think there's something extraordinaryhappening in this cultural moment.
So the stats this year, for most of our lifetimes, the graph has been going down in termsof church attendance.
There's something amazing happening at the moment.
Two million more people are in church now than were six years ago.
(21:05):
29 % of all students say they read the Bible at least once a week.
Bible sales are up 87 % between 2019 and 2024.
There's something extraordinary happening at the moment.
I think my message is let's make the most of this moment.
where people have been closed previously, they might be open now.
And this posture of being good news people in a hopeless world.
think the perma-crisis in which we've been living, people are feeling the weight of that.
(21:29):
We are people of hope, we're people of good news.
Let's embrace that identity and absolutely go for it over the coming days.
Mmm, that's great guys.
Thank you.
We'll be back talking some more with Gavin Calver and Phil Knox just after these so staytuned.
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(21:50):
Head over to buymeacoffee.com slash Matt McChlery to make a donation.
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Hello, welcome back to the Christian Book Blurb.
We've been chatting with Galvan Calver and Phil Knox all about their book Good NewsPeople.
(22:13):
Now, this side of the break, guys, we like to get to know the authors a little bit more.
We've been delving into the pages of your book.
Now I want to delve into the pages of your lives.
So here we go!
Where are both of you based?
I'm working for the Evangelical Alliance.
Where does that place you sort of geographically?
I'm in north west London
(22:35):
I live in Birmingham.
Okay, so do you have to commute or is there lots of sort of online meetings?
I do.
I'm in the office at least normally once a week.
But the nature of my job is that I speak two or three times a week in lots of differentplaces all over the UK.
Birmingham works quite well because it's kind of in the middle.
So you're never more than two or three hours from anywhere.
(22:55):
So this last weekend I was in the Lake District.
Next weekend I'm in Brentwood in Essex.
You can be absolutely anywhere, near a train station, near an airport.
Happy days.
Yeah.
That's great.
And what do you guys like doing for fun?
For, you know, to let your hair down?
(23:15):
I mean, this is an audio program, so people can't quite see.
I don't have much quiet on top, nor does Phil.
Gavin has a bit more follicular output going on there, but what do you guys do to relax?
I'm a sport enthusiast, Matt.
So love watching football.
also love running, water skiing.
(23:36):
My football days of playing are over sadly, because of knee injuries and actuallycurrently recovering from a knee injury at the moment.
I had knee surgery a couple of months ago.
So there's not much running happening at the moment, but I'm very tragically going tobecome a very middle-aged, middle-class man and start cycling to rehab my knee before I
can run again.
So that's my new hobby that I'm embracing over the next few months.
(23:58):
Yeah.
Mine's quite similar though.
I'm certainly not a middle-aged man in Lycra.
That's not going to happen.
But I love running.
I run regularly.
football would be my favorite escape.
I've got season tickets with my kids at the mighty AFC Wimbledon.
And it's great to escape from the realities of everything else.
But love it.
Love sport.
(24:19):
Love engaging in that.
And also I like dipping into culture.
I know that links to my job a little bit, but...
quite an enthusiast about what's going on in society, what's happening and all of that.
yeah.
Sunday Times on a Sunday is a treat if I ever get to read that in full.
Speaking of dipping into culture, does that include food and sort of exploring differentcultures through their cuisines?
(24:43):
And if you have a particular favorite at the moment?
I alluded to church before, we go to a church that is so intercultural, it's wonderful.
So even just last weekend, I went to one family for Sri Lankan cuisine and then the nextfamily, we Indian cuisine.
Now the novice might think they're the same, they're really not.
And so we love the taste of the world and I live in one of the most diverse parts ofLondon, go to a very diverse church.
(25:07):
And so that's part of the adventure really.
No, very much so, very much so.
It's always disappointing when you realise that you're having British food on a particularday, because I'm not sure our cuisine is the envy of the world.
And Phil, what about you?
Do you enjoy any particular thing?
Is it bangers and mash all the way?
An ideal day off for me, is I often preach on a Sunday.
An ideal day off for me is a Monday.
(25:29):
So I'll go and sit in a coffee shop in the morning and read.
And then on the way back, we'll visit the supermarket to buy the ingredients for someMiddle Eastern food usually.
Monday night is late night in our household.
And so I almost always will cook.
Got some very nice Middle Eastern cookbooks over the years and working my way throughthose, which I hope is a treat for my wife.
I certainly enjoy cooking it.
(25:49):
So that's great.
And in your coffee shop, what's your go to order, Phil?
What's your typical, let's order this because I'm in a coffee shop.
and probably many of your listeners won't be the same as me.
I like a peppermint latte
okay.
There you go, there you go.
Gavin pulled a face at that.
What's your go-to, Gavin?
(26:10):
very dull.
Why Americano is skim milk?
Very boring, but you know, if they bake beans well, it's nice.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm a cappuccino chap.
But I know some of the younger listeners are more into this matcha, matcha kind of teastuff.
That's quite big in the younger generations.
So don't quite do coffee.
But anyway, there you go.
(26:31):
You live and you learn.
They're great.
Chocolate or sweets?
Chocolate.
Yeah, definitely chocolate.
and what kind because there's lots of kinds.
Is it your standard milk chocolate or really dark stuff or white chocolate or what do yougo for?
As a Birmingham dweller, I'm fiercely loyal to Cadbury's.
Hey Cadbury's Cadbury world in Birmingham isn't it?
(26:54):
I've been there.
I've seen the funny little animatronic people singing funny songs as you go around.
Yeah, that's great.
think I'm aero probably.
That's not...
yeah.
I like- Is it the mint arrow?
No, no, no.
Now, don't mess about, plain milk chocolate.
My family loved this marvellous creations nonsense where you have dairy milk full ofrubbish.
(27:16):
I'm like, no, no, the rubbish out, have the chocolate.
Okay, all right, good.
So let me ask both of you, you could take turns, let's start with Gavin.
What is the Holy Spirit doing in your life at the moment?
Is he saying something to you or doing something with you at the moment?
Yeah, I think so.
think there's a refining going on.
(27:38):
I've been really challenged in recent weeks to ditch distractions in order to focus moreon my walk with the Lord.
And I think the other thing I'd say is we've had some really precious times as a family inrecent weeks.
It's partly my daughter's about to move away.
And we've had some really precious times where the Lord's united us and the Spirit hasused my children to speak.
(27:59):
I probably wouldn't share it here.
very personal, speaks from very personal, very direct stuff to me that I needed to hearand I'm not sure I would have received from anyone else.
And so that's been an interesting thing as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Thank you, Phil.
Yeah, I mean, think for me that the Lord's been speaking to me about seasons and so untilprobably the end of last year, been in a real summer season, but I had a really hard first
(28:23):
few months of this year where it felt like winter and challenges with my body and justfelt like winter.
I think sometimes there's stuff that God can only do in the winter seasons of our lifethat he can't do in the summer.
And so I learned in that season to really depend on him.
It feels like
it's been, that's changed again.
So I feel like I'm back in much more of a summer season at the moment.
(28:46):
but also I think for us as a church, recognizing what the spirit is doing in the church,we need to step into that as a season.
And so for me, I feel profoundly called in this season to be a Barnabas to the church, toencourage Christians to really go for it in being good news people and reaching out to
those around them, but also encouraging leaders, both Gav and I, as we go around thecountry, some of our most valuable work is actually spent.
(29:09):
over coffee or over dinner with leaders.
Just bring an encouragement.
I think that's a real posture for us as the EA, but also for people like Gavin and I whoget to come alongside leaders who are offered lonely, but also in a season where God's
doing so much to say, look, here's what's happening across the UK.
Here's how we can make the most of it in our own local context.
Yeah that's great, that's great.
(29:30):
You guys are incredibly busy.
I know there's other books that the Evangelical Alliance have put out and I'm hoping tofeature some more on the show in the future, but do you have anything on the boil?
Are you working on the next book or it might be a project related to this book or you knowis there something coming up?
(29:54):
Not for me.
There is no chance of another book.
Now there'll be many things from this book.
We've done a small group resource.
We're going to do a big church read.
We're going to do all kinds of things to help people access this book.
But I think this is the sixth book I've written on my own or with someone.
And actually it's the first time I've written one where I think it has a much longer talethan any of the others.
(30:17):
I think this is a really timely book.
It is writing about what the Lord's doing.
and I think it will hopefully help redeem the evangelical term for the next decade.
So it might be that I think the next thing I would write would be a second edition of thisif needed.
I don't think there's, this feels like the book of the moment really.
(30:38):
Yeah, great.
Phil, I know you've had other books.
You've got one on friendship as well and before this one and the one we spoke about on aprevious episode called Story Bearer.
Have you got anything bubbling in the background?
No, not at this stage.
My work, my project work over the next probably couple of years at least is helping thechurch make the most of the missional moments in which we're in.
(31:01):
So we released earlier this year some really significant research into how adults arecoming to faith.
So where the big headlines of pieces like the Quiet Revival talk about what's happening interms of people coming to faith in the UK, we feel as the Evangelical Alliance, the Lord
has positioned us to say how it's happening.
So that research talked to 280 people who'd become Christians as adults in the last fiveyears to talk about their journeys.
(31:25):
A huge amount of my work, as well as talking about our postures as good news people, whichleans into some of that, is helping the whole church make the most of this moment and
identify the pathways by which people are coming to faith so that we might be the mosteffective we can be in our mission in evangelism.
Really great, really interesting.
Thank you guys.
So where can people find your book Good News People and where can people learn more aboutthe Evangelical Alliance and find the other research and resources that you've been
(31:53):
mentioning?
everywhere in some ways you can find a book wherever you get your Christian books from youcan find a book but my number one recommendation to any listeners would be if you're not a
member of the Evangelical Alliance become one it only costs three pound a month and we'llsend you a book so you know if people join the EA to get one as well because it explains
who and what we are
Also on eauk.org you can find all the resources and research we're talking about.
(32:17):
You can find more stuff on Good News People and you can also, going forward in culture,when there are those chaotic moments which we go through and you need some help or you
want to lean into some of the advocacy space in government or you want to write to your MPor any of sort of stuff, it's a good place to be.
The EA website will help you with what you need and if you think we're missing anythingbecause the Alliance is for the Church, get in touch with us.
(32:39):
when we hear from two or three members saying what about X we start thinking we might havemissed something here we need to lean in so speak to us and encounter us and let's go
forward together.
And just to reiterate what Gav said about the small group resources, that there's a reasonthe book's called Good News People and not Good News Person.
We really think this is a book to be journeyed through together.
(33:02):
So the reason we've done the small group stuff is to really help churches engage.
All of my books have been journeyed in small groups as well as by individuals.
And we really hope that people can spark discussion, maybe even encounter some of thatunity we talk about.
so explicitly in the book, but also kind of go through it together and that the wholechurch can benefit from it, not just individuals.
(33:25):
That's fantastic.
Well, Gavin and Phil, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
It's been great chatting to you both.
Thanks, Matt.
And thank you for listening to this episode of the Christian Book Blur podcast.
It comes out on the 1st and the 15th of every month, so it won't be long before I'm backagain speaking to another Christian author, all about their books, their life and their
(33:48):
faith, to encourage you in your discipleship one book at a time.
Thank you for the pleasure of your company and I look forward to seeing you again soon.
Thank you and goodbye.
Thanks for listening to Christian Book Blurb with your host Matt McChlery.
Do give it a like, give it a share and let your friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon on another Christian Book Blurb.
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