Enveloped in an aura of creative brilliance, today's guest on the Clear As Mud Podcast is the illustrious Vani Balgam. A luminary in directing, writing, and producing, she's the founder of Dancing Atoms—a visionary creator studio forging connections between Asian and North American storytelling, birthing authentic narratives for a global audience.
Vani's career gleams with achievements, including her role as Head of Creative Management at Dreamworks Animation in Shanghai and her executive directorship at the award-laden animation and VFX studio, Rhythm and Hughes Asia.
In this episode, Vani unwraps the genesis of her VFX journey, offering insights into her wellspring of inspiration and the birth of Dancing Atoms. The Himalayan backdrop becomes a canvas for her filmmaking audacity, while her personal philosophies and guidance light a path for aspiring artists and creators.
This episode stands as a treasure trove of insight, and is certainly one that we believe will stay with our listeners throughout their entire personal and professional journeys in the world of VFX, animation, and the game industry.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mazze (00:11):
Hello everyone and welcome to our podcast, clear as Mud, where we
talk to game developers and artistsfrom all walks of life about their
personal and professional journeys.
I'm your host Maze.
As always, our podcast is presentedby MUDS Stack, the only digital
asset management and collaborationplatform, custom built for game
studios and digital artists.
MUDS Stack is free for artists.
(00:31):
So if you'd like to learn more about MudsStack, head on over to muds stack.com
or join our Discord channel today.
Alright.
Thank you Vni, so much for agreeing tobe here on the Clearest Mud Podcast.
I'm really excited toget to talk to you today.
I've got a couple questions.
I think a lot of our listeners are gonnaget a really good experience out of
all this, so you have such a tremendouscareer and you're really an inspiration.
(00:53):
It was great getting to meet you at GD C and I've been wanting to have you
on the podcast pretty much ever since.
So thank you so much.
Vani (01:00):
Thank you for having me.
This is amazing and I'm a bit nervous.
Mazze (01:05):
No need to be nervous at all.
I'm nervous.
I'm more nervous to talk to you probably,but we've got to chat a little bit
before and so I think that should help.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna go ahead.
I'll just start with oneof my first questions.
Can you just tell me a littlebit about your journey in the
V F X and animation industry?
How did you come into the field?
I would love to hear more aboutwhat inspired you to pursue V
(01:26):
F X and animation as a career.
Vani (01:29):
When I was very young, my father wanted to make animated films.
I was probably eight or nine yearsold and we were living in India.
I remember how much joy he feltwhen he watched some of the Disney
classics like Bambi and Dumboand the Tom and Jerry Shorts.
(01:52):
It allowed him to be a child.
I think.
And it allowed him to be vulnerable.
And it is that, that I thinktranslated, and I can only see that
today when I'm speaking to you,that I think it was that joy on my
(02:14):
father's face of, oh my God, there'sanother way that we can experience.
Storytelling.
There's another waythat we can feel healed.
There's another way that we can feeltherapeutic about watching these movies.
There's another way that we canconnect with a completely different
culture that is not us, but it'sthe underlying human emotion.
(02:41):
And he wanted to make animated films.
He wanted to bring this very specificIndian, what should I say, superpower
hero called Hanman, which is heis a very powerful Indian deity.
I.
Whose entire impression or his wholephilosophy is about friendship?
Hanman is all about love, friendship,and devotion to the people that you love.
(03:06):
And the word devotion has beenconfused as a religious thing in
the Western language, but we allare very devoted to our families.
We all are very devoted to our friendship.
We just don't use that word because.
We have somehow put a verydifferent context to it, but the
(03:29):
entire country of 1.6 some billionpeople uses this as a currency.
Which is very different when I've beenliving here in the States because our
currency, the words are different,but the currency or the underlying
emotion is the same, and it's exactlythat, that he wanted to bring from
(03:52):
a storytelling point of view toshow the vulnerability of Hanman,
who's this mighty, powerful monkey?
God.
But also show the foundationof what that relationship is.
So what is your relationship withyour family, with your friends,
with everything that is around you?
And he wanted to bring those storiesto the world way back in 1984.
(04:16):
And I.
I don't remember if that was thepoint that subconsciously the seed
was rooted in my head saying that thisis the path that you will be taking.
But it did happen asearly as 1984 and 1985.
That was what me and my brother wereintroduced to as another parallel universe
(04:38):
or a metaverse, or whatever you want tocall it, be able to read comic books.
So I think it started at that point thatI wanted to be a storyteller or at least
be a part of that storytelling process.
Mazze (04:52):
Storytelling.
I love that answer.
I think that was so beautifully saidand I was just smiling ear to ear.
I know it's just audio right now, but Wow.
That's actually justmoving to think about it.
That just led directly into my nextquestion, which was gonna be what inspired
you to focus on bridging this gap betweenAsian and North American storytellers
(05:13):
and bringing Asian stories to the world?
And animation, whichyou've already answered.
Yes, I did.
Vani (05:20):
But I think it's, again, seeing the representation on screen, whether
in voice, whether in music, whether inclothing, whether in the sensitivity
of how parents raise their childrenin India, which is very different from
how parents raise their children herein the West, and there are so many.
(05:44):
Tiny, little specific, authenticdetails that have not been presented,
that have not been, there's not enoughdiversity and specificity, and I
believe that when you grow up, whenI grew up, all I was watching from.
(06:08):
Indian films was very specific toIndia, and they were designed in a
particular way to hit certain formulas.
So they were the commercial films,which was a lot of singing and dancing
and imaginary world and visualizationto overcome hurdles was always a
tool in the Indian filmmaking space.
(06:30):
And then you saw the veryWestern films, which again,
focused on the family issues or.
Films like Kremer versus Remer or someof those films were like, oh my God, look
what's happening in the world in the west.
And one watched that film and thoughtthat sitting in India, you always
thought, oh my God, that's what'shappening in the west all the time.
(06:51):
But no, that one film is not therepresentation of the entire United States
or just, you know, when you come with thatkind of a point of view that is, America.
That is Europe.
That is Canada.
And then people that are sitting inthis side of the world are looking
(07:12):
at Indian films and they're going,oh my God, these Indian films, they
just have this dancing and whatever.
And then, hello.
That's not just what we do.
There are other films, butyou don't get to see them.
And I feel like when this kindof biases are getting made, I.
It feels like you need to open anothersmall door to let people in on other ways.
(07:38):
And I think the internet did that in abig way where we started seeing visuals.
We started listening to different partsof the world about what's happening other
than the news that was being fed to us.
So I feel like as a human being,forget as a storyteller, as a human
being, I think we all have stories.
Every single human being has.
(08:00):
Their own unique voice and they allhave something that they absolutely are
different from the other person in theirexperiential journey in their life.
So as I grew up, I felt thatwas not visible and the.
(08:21):
Space was missing.
To put that, to uplift yourselfand say, you know what?
I'm going to, how should I put it?
I'm going to promote myself to do this.
I'm not gonna wait for somebodyto find me and put me on the
spot and give me an opportunity.
Because you could wait.
But then you could alsosay, you know what?
(08:43):
I can do this on my own two feet.
And I think that's when I startedDancing Atoms and decided about
eight years ago that I'm gonnapromote myself to that position to
share my ideas and bridge that gap.
Mazze (09:01):
You took the initiative for yourself to be the change in
the world that you want to be.
I think we hear that phrase a lot,and maybe we don't fully internalize
or understand what it means.
But I think you explainedit very well, and it's also,
again, you're very intuitive.
You've already guessed my next question.
So could you just share some of theinsights into your latest project Dancing
Atoms, and what sets it apart from otherprojects and other studios, and what
(09:24):
can we expect from it down the road?
Vani (09:27):
So I think Dancing Atoms, when I started it, I was just
one person and I was feeling.
I didn't belong anywhere.
I didn't know where I belonged,and it came from that idea that.
I gotta dance, I gotta do my owndance, and it's gonna be awkward.
(09:48):
And so I, I named it like, okay, it'sgonna be like these things that are
happening inside my body that I can'tsee and all around me that the A atoms
are constantly moving in a particular,Pattern in a particular step, and
that's where the name came from.
And because I was alone on the journeyof doing what I was doing, I called it
a Home for Creators, which literallymeant that anybody that had a fantastic
(10:14):
idea can be a part of dancing atoms.
And we built together a Indiacreative collective, and that was.
The birth of dancing atoms.
Obviously I had a lot of concepts thatmy father had written and my mother
had written in the animation space,and they had done so much amount of
(10:35):
research and they never got made.
Another creative friend thatI was trying to help, she
mentioned, Hey, you know what?
You're sitting on gold.
Why don't you just.
Open your treasure box because you havea lot of material that you can polish.
And that started the journey to say,all right, I'm gonna start working
(10:55):
on some of these animation conceptsthat my father and mother had
worked on that never saw the light.
And so that became a journeyon its own, but also I have
immense love for the Himalayas.
And I've been trekking andtraveling the mountains for almost
20, 22 years, or 23 years now.
(11:18):
And every year I've made it a pointto make time for myself to go away
into the mountains all alone with abackpack and just walk and do nothing.
And that kinda led me to wantingto make a documentary as well.
So I've always loved makingdocumentaries, and I would say
documentary was always my first love.
So I decided as an independentfilmmaker that I bought myself
(11:42):
an Icon D 800 and just decidedI'm gonna make my documentary.
So that also was the birth of afterrunning some really big studios to,
to stand out there, to break theboxes and say, I'm gonna do something
that I've always wanted to do.
And I'm gonna give myselfthe permission to do it.
(12:02):
And that was also doing a lot oflive action short films and stuff.
So currently my focus is mostly on writinga lot of amazing stories and ideas,
which have been writing and rewritingmany drafts for my feature concepts.
And I'm pitching some four quadrantreally fun comedy feature films.
(12:24):
And I'm writing for veryyoung children, which is.
Called preschool.
So there's a project called nu, whichgot selected by stories by women.
We selected the project to come to EElast year in 2022, so that was fantastic.
So I'm continuing to pitch thisbeautiful little story for preschoolers.
(12:47):
It's extremely optimistic, very positive.
It's about building on your ideas.
So I'm excited aboutthat and I have another.
Project with a Canadian companythat I'm partnered with called Epic
Story Media, another preschool show,so I'm excited about that as well.
We've pitched it to a lot of peopleand I'm really hoping that we
(13:07):
find a home for those projects.
Mazze (13:09):
I'm super excited to see everything that comes out of
the work that you've been doing.
Just the thought of you, I've met you,and just the thought of you going alone
with a backpack into the Himalayas.
You're so tremendously brave,and so it's no surprise at all to
me that you're branching out andyou're conquering your own mountain.
In your career as well, right?
Like you're taking risks and you'retaking, you're doing what brings you
(13:31):
joy, but also you're trying to bringsomething to the world that's an enriched
and lived in experience for yourself.
And I think that's sotremendously authentic.
Honestly, I wanna see more humanbeings, not just storytellers.
I wanna see exactlythe way you phrased it.
More human beings bringing theirhumanity, whether it's in film or game
or television, just more of that humanelement, especially given so much of
(13:53):
the trends today that we see of machinelearning and that kind of thing.
You're someone who's worked with reallyrenowned studios like Dreamworks Animation
Rhythm in Hugs Asia, and could youjust share some of the valuable lessons
that you've learned along the way thatmay have helped you shape your career?
Vani (14:10):
Yeah, I think, you know, I.
I don't know.
If I was chosen destined, I'dsometimes look back and it feels like
a completely different metaverse.
I want to use that word becauseI never dreamt of running an
Academy Award-winning studio.
(14:31):
I never desired it.
I never wanted to manage people.
I never studied for that, but.
There is something that I've observedabout the lessons of working is that
sometimes what you subconsciously seek ordon't seek arrives in front of you, right?
(14:53):
And you have two choices mostlyeither to say yes to that and go
with that flow or to say no and.
Do what you really are cut outthat you really desire to do.
Sometimes you're very lucky if what showsup in front of you and what you really
want to do are almost the same, whichis, I would say so phenomenally awesome.
(15:16):
What are the chances, right?
What are the chances thatyou get to do what you love?
And so at working like in India formany years and then having given this.
Opportunity to set up Rhythm and Hughes,which was an Academy Award-winning
studio based in Los Angeles.
I got the opportunity to start and buildRhythm and Hughes in India in 2001.
(15:41):
Some of the most valuable lessons thatI would say that I've learned is trust.
What does trust the power of trustin a workplace can make things.
So I don't even know if I have words forit, but trust can make you feel at home.
(16:05):
Trust can make you do wonders.
Trust can build relationships,and so I was trusted with this.
I had never been to the US andnever traveled to the US and I was
hired over a dial-up connection.
So I feel like what made theother person on the other end.
(16:26):
To trust me.
What choices did they have?
Not meeting a person over a phone call,not even a video call to say, this
person, I trust this person to do this.
It's such a simple thing.
If you actually break it down,it's as simple as saying, I trust
you it and I believe in you.
(16:47):
How hard is it for us to do that?
When that was put on me, Iquestioned so many things.
I was like, what?
How, what, what?
Like, how do I run a company?
And you trust me with money and youtrust me with my judgment, and you
trust me with making the right choicesand decisions and building a studio.
(17:10):
Like it was just a lot of confusion.
It was like an emotional h, like it wasa rollercoaster ride emotionally because,
99.9% of the time, people do not wannabelieve you and people do not wanna trust
you, including a little bit of yourself.
(17:32):
We're internally fighting ourcritical voice all the time.
That's saying, you can't do this.
Now you have the external voices thatgive you a little bit of belief and
trust, but not a hundred percent.
And I think my big learning lesson wasthe way that the founders of Rhythm and
Hughes, Pauline, John Hughes, Pauline, soJohn Hughes and Keith Goldfarb had this.
(18:00):
Control, but lack of controlin just saying, we are going
to trust you to do this.
And now I who was sitting here inIndia had to figure out how can I
imbibe that value and pass it forward.
(18:20):
Was there any otherway that I can do this?
Can I trust the next group ofpeople that I am going to hire?
Can I trust them?
Can I believe in them?
It is the hardest thingand also the easiest thing.
So I think that's one of thebiggest takeaways for me.
And then I think workinginternationally, I.
(18:43):
At rhythmic use going back to Los Angelesto connect with the mothership as I
call it, and then coming back to India.
And then we set up anotherstudio in Malaysia.
And then in Taiwan, I realized thatthe artists want to belong and that
the artists want to be taken care of.
(19:05):
And that talent was universal.
So these were the other values thatI learned over a period of time.
By just managing people.
Super talented people, by the way, becauseI felt like those are the same things
that I want for myself, whether I'm anartist or not, but that's what I want.
I want to be respected.
(19:25):
I want to be valued.
I want to be taken care of.
I want to be appreciated forwhat I do, and I'm talented and
I think that's everybody, right?
Nobody wakes up and says, I'mgoing to do bad work today.
Anybody wakes up and says, I'mgonna do a funny job today.
So I think there was so much thatI realized and didn't realize
(19:47):
also at the right time thatthis was the universal thing.
This was very universal, thatyou have to take care of people.
And I remember.
One of the few meetings that I had withJohn Hughes, who was the founder of Rhythm
and Hughes, I asked him, John, you'vehired me to run India and manage it.
What do you expect from me?
(20:07):
And he literally said, just these words, Ijust want you to take care of the people.
And I was like, wait, what?
You don't hear that?
Like who?
Who tells you to take care ofpeople, but also someone who.
Knows that if you do that,everything else falls in place.
(20:30):
Like everything will fall in place becauseyou now value your peers, your team
members, and it builds a certain dynamic.
And I'm telling you the magicthat we created building
those four studios in Asia.
Was addictive.
We were on a high just because of thisvery simple concept of trust and let that
(20:56):
trust continue and let that multiply.
And I love the multiplicationeffect because then the trust
amplified and multiplied andhappiness amplified and multiplied.
The quality of work amplified.
The belonging multipliedlike everybody felt belonged.
(21:16):
Nobody felt like they didn't belong.
I think it's very magical and I would lovefor people to try it out as an experiment.
It does do great wonders if one cancondition themself to do that, and I
think at Dreamworks, one of the mostequally powerful things that I learned is.
(21:38):
Taking care of people is important,but also the financial wellbeing of
running a studio is equally important.
Not that it's more or less, but it'sequally important because you need to
look at it from a business point of view.
The visual effects and animationindustry is a business, but you can,
(22:01):
you have to always keep a pulse, likeyou always have to read that pulse very.
Regularly and carefully because it'svery hard to be in this business.
I would say it's one of the toughestbusinesses to be in is the entertainment
Mazze (22:19):
industry.
I think people perform pretty wellwhen there's stability, but the
entertainment industry as a wholeis naturally pretty volatile.
It can go a lot of differentways at different times, and that
can have tremendous effects onpeople's psychological wellbeing.
People have families to take care of,they have to put a roof over their
heads, and it's hard to be creativeand be inspired when you're not
(22:40):
entirely sure that you're gonna havea job three months from down the line.
That's something I've picked updefinitely from talking to so many
different people on the podcast,mostly in the gaming industry.
Also in the film industry and V F X.
That's just my personal experience.
Vani (22:55):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think the deepest desire to be seen issatisfied by being in the film industry
or the visual effects animation industryor anything where you're visible.
And then the name, like the desireto be famous is also attached
with this industry so deeply that.
(23:17):
That.
I would say that a lot of thecompanies, I'm saying that the
individuals themselves have to also.
Be aware what their deepest desire is tobe visible, to be heard, to be famous,
to have a name and a reputation, butit's all coming at a cost, which is your
physical health and your mental health.
(23:38):
So instead of pointing fingers tostudios or to companies, I think
individually the artists have to valuethemselves and know and create that
work-life balance as we move forward.
Mazze (23:54):
Do you have any advice that you'd want to give to aspiring creatives who
are interested in pursuing a career inV F X animation, the game industry, just
the entertainment industry as a whole?
Vani (24:05):
Personally, the advice that I would give my younger self is talk
to people, reach out to talent.
That's out there.
Have a coffee zoom call, or if youhave the luxury to meet the person
in person, then please go meet them.
Get studio tours.
Before you decide on taking up a careerthere, write down your pros and cons
(24:28):
and write down your goals that youwanna achieve and, and the sacrifices
you will make to achieve those.
So like really deepdive into it if you can.
And then, Way out your optionsbecause sometimes we may not even
know that's what we want, but we arein that position and we accept it.
(24:50):
But later, 10, 15 years later, if you'relike burnt out or if you realize, oh my
God, this is not what I wanted to do.
Or, oh my goodness, this is exactlywhere I wanted to be and I'm so happy
I did what I'm doing, that's also cool.
But I think like regularly, Talking topeople in the industry, going to events
(25:10):
outside of your one field, because I thinklike in the last three years, there's
been a huge shift in the narrative, instorytelling and in in the narratives.
Educate yourself regularly.
Listen to some great podcasts, or goto exhibitions, events, conferences.
There's so many happeningin your location or outside.
(25:33):
Invest in that.
Invest in your.
Because when you work only for one companyor one studio, it's great that you're
loyal and you're dedicated, but it's alsoequally important that you understand
what's happening and how valuable you arein this big something that's out there.
(25:57):
I constantly try and learn.
Things every day.
If I can, I'll read something verydifferent from what I'm doing.
Nothing related towriting or storytelling.
I'll read about fashion.
I'll read about how many fans arebeing made in America every day.
I'll just read about strange thingsbecause I'm just aware a little bit more
(26:20):
about what's happening in the industry.
But like above and beyond theindustry, just to know that
it's good to do multiple things.
It's good to invest time andenergy in multiple things.
So you have a.
Some kind of a securityor a fallback sometimes.
(26:41):
I've been pitching my projects forabout six years, and I've known people
whose projects have been green litin two years and three years, and
I've also known people whose projectshave not been green lit for 16 years.
So this creative spaceis, what should I say?
So attractive but extremely competitive.
(27:06):
There's very little.
Space there, or it's very tightly held.
I think there's abundance, but I also feellike it's tightly held by decision makers.
And the truth is, it's a business.
I can come in from being anextremely passionate writer, creator,
filmmaker, but at the end of theday, I should have done my best.
(27:30):
But I can't depend only on this.
I have to either teach or.
Right.
Another thing for a gaming company.
So my narrative has to expandabove and beyond one thing,
and I think that's the future.
So yeah, I would say the adviceis talk to a lot of people.
(27:51):
Talk to the interconnectingfields as much as you can.
Mazze (27:56):
And I just have to say this for our listeners, this is advice that
you can trust because I met V at GD C and you were there, and it's the
first thing you said to me, basically.
I'm paraphrasing of course, but it's,I don't know what I'm doing here,
but I'm just here to figure it out.
You were taking your own advice.
You were going into this environment whereyou wanted to learn more about the game
industry, and you came right up to me.
(28:17):
Maybe I came up to you one way orthe other, and you started talking to
me about your vision and your story,and it immediately just made me feel.
Such a great appreciation for you.
I had no idea who you were, whatwas your background, what was on
your resume or anything like that.
And I was just immediately drawnto this creative passion and this
aura that you had about you and thisvery chaotic gaming conference with
(28:40):
people from all around the world.
You definitely stood out, but I thinkthat you do take your own advice.
And then the other thing I wantedto say is that there is profundity
in the obscure, and I draw a lot ofinspiration every day from weird,
random things that I have no ideaabout, like eating weird food.
I.
I'm here in the south.
There's weird things like friedpickles and okra and things
(29:02):
that I've never ate before.
And maybe they're not strange tosome people, but to me they are.
And it's inspiring.
I take those things and I putthem away in a filing cabinet and
I'm like, I'm going to use thatand I'm gonna enrich my writing.
At some point, I'm gonnaenrich my experience.
I do just think that it's reallysolid advice and you live and you
practice your own advice, and that'snot always something that we see.
Vani (29:25):
No thank you.
I was very apprehensive, vulnerable,scared, unsure about attending G D C
because it's like, I've heard about itfor many years, but I was like, wait,
what am I gonna achieve from going here?
And I was like, why am I overthinking it?
I'll go.
It's not about, so I think theexpectations that we have of ourself
(29:46):
that I have to achieve and everything hasto become something I've learned that.
It comes full circle like alot of the relationships that
I have made professionally.
About even maybe 20 years ago have somehowconnected back to me 20 years later.
(30:08):
And now I'm working with them on aproject and I'm like, wait, I never
planned for that, but I am so gladthat person and I had met 20 years ago.
And look at what kind ofa joy, like the, like.
It's so amazing how these randomconversations, these random meetings
are somehow, It's like a dance thatyou just don't realize what your next
(30:34):
move is, but it is going to happenat some point if you, it's kind of
lovely to embrace uncertainties.
All I'm trying to say is coming toG D C and saying, you know what?
I don't know what's gonnahappen, but I'm gonna go.
Right.
I absolutely loved coming up to you.
I think I came up and I was curiousabout what your studio was doing.
(30:55):
And I was like, Hey, can youtell me a little bit more?
And then you asked me, and then itwent to a beautiful conversation,
and then I met your other friends.
So it's great.
Like I've made a relationship, I'vemade a new friend, I've made a new
contact, which was not about, I'm gonnago get this, but this was more organic
and more satisfying in so many ways.
(31:17):
So I think the advice is, again, like younever know who you are going to bump into.
Right.
And another very quick advice, notthat I'm capable of giving advices, but
something that's absolutely transformedmy life is practicing silence, and I
wanna tell the whole world about it.
It's just amazing.
(31:39):
If you could just not talk, turn offyour gadgets and step away for 24 hours.
At least once a month if you can affordto, or whenever you can afford to do that,
to just completely just be with yourself.
Nothing else.
I've realized that myawareness has increased.
(32:04):
I feel more sensitive about myselfand the people I'm surrounded by.
I feel immense gratitudeby practicing silence.
I value being in this body, I should say.
So there's just a lot of wonderfulside effects of being silent.
So I would absolutely suggest requestadvice, give it a try at least.
(32:29):
It may not be foreverybody, but at least give
Mazze (32:31):
it a try.
I love the way that you originallyput it of, I want to tell the whole
world about practicing silence.
There's such an intrinsicquality to that statement.
I'm gonna put it on my mirror.
Okay.
I have more questions.
So a lot of people, especially in thegaming industry, they're moving away from
this idea of going and working for 20to 25 years at AAA Studio, and instead
(32:54):
they're embarking on independent careers,sometimes at very young ages and going
off and founding their own game studioor filmmaking studios, what have you.
Um, could you just talk about some ofthe challenges you faced when you were
founding Dancing Atoms and how you wereable to overcome them or how you're
still in the process of overcoming them?
And then the code to that is, whatabout those challenges excites you
(33:17):
or keeps you motivated and makes youknow that you're on the right track?
Because I think that there's, thisis my own personal philosophy, but I
think that if something's worth doing,it's probably not going to be easy.
You're gonna face challenges.
If it's easy, it might notactually be worth doing.
And that's just my ownpersonal philosophy.
Take it or leave it.
(33:37):
But yeah.
So my question is for those people whoare, especially our younger audience
who are going and embarking on foundingtheir own studio, maybe not advice,
but what's just your own experience?
Vani (33:49):
So I can talk a little bit about my learnings and the shortcomings.
I wanna say that when I decided I'm gonnastart my own studio, I should have talked
to 10 other people first, which I didn't.
I would highly recommend do that,talk to people about what it is to
do a startup completely on your own.
I've built studios.
(34:09):
I've built five studios aroundthe world for other people, right?
And I know what it is to build forothers, but like building something
for yourself is a completely different.
I don't wanna call it a beast or amonster, but it's completely different.
I would say it's like you are creatingsomething and you have a goal and you have
(34:33):
something in your mind, but the amountof research one should do before they
start something is very important because.
At least for me, I think today, ifI were to start another company, I
would absolutely do a lot of research.
First.
I would get a lot of advices.
I would even probably go to therapyand ask myself, why am I doing this?
(34:57):
So those basic questions, whichI use as a tool for me, is
what, why, where, when, and how.
Um, I use that in every form, like inmy communication in dealing with my
artists, in dealing with my producers.
In every relationship.
I think those are the questionsthat I always ask before I do
(35:20):
stuff because it makes me stronger.
It makes me powerful.
It makes me knowledgeable andintuitive to say, okay, I am doing
this because of this and not some.
Superficial thing that I was going after.
It is extremely hard to start upyour own company unless you already
(35:40):
have friends or clients that arewilling to give you business.
Then if you have that, then that'sa wonderful blessing to start with,
where someone is already seeing thevalue that you're going to bring.
And is willing to give you that work.
So your starting problems are not likeyour teething problems or your starting
(36:03):
problems are not as hard as someone whohas no idea and is starting from scratch
with no contacts, with no relationships,and has to continue developing their
own content like I am doing on my own.
I think those are the biggest thingsis research, preparing, planning,
(36:26):
progressing, stepping back a littlebit and then reviewing it again.
And we all have goals.
And that's another wonderful thing thatI've learned over this past six years,
eight years of being independent, is thatif my goal is to create stories, Have my
(36:48):
stories be visible in film theaters oron screens all around the world, and to
be on the top OT platforms or whatever.
That's my goal.
I.
But to actually have an action planof what are all my gaps to get there.
So I call it like really filling up,filling in the blanks in a very childlike
(37:10):
way to say, cool, I wanna be there.
I wanna win that Academy Award.
I wanna win that for my filmas one of the best filmmakers.
But guess what?
These are all the.
50 things that I have to do to get there.
And then there is the uncertainty ofanother 50 things that I can't even
(37:31):
think about, that I can't even visualize.
But being absolutely aware is, Ithink the goal of being successful
and being specific, not justgeneric, but like extremely specific.
Telling the universe to support youon that mission and like literally
(37:55):
calling for it and saying, I want itlike this and this, and calling that
very specifically and being focusedis one of the most challenging things
of running a business, I would say.
Mazze (38:08):
Wow.
Yeah, that's more than I could haveeven asked from for that answer.
I think.
I love the analogy of filling in theblanks and being honest with yourself,
and then also starting your own company,starting your own creative venture.
There's an inherently Cchildlike quality to it.
It reflects this question that we'reasked a lot in our childhood of what
do you want to be when you grow up?
(38:28):
And I think that it's interesting,the answers that you'll get
from children, they're soaspirational and they're inspiring.
Then sometimes they'rea little rudimentary and
mundane, and that's okay too.
And I think everybody fallssomewhere along that spectrum.
And so it's inspiring for meto see so many creative people
going off and taking those risks.
But I do think that, yeah,if you have these goals, you
(38:50):
need to fill in the blanks.
You need to make your plans,make your action items.
It's the corporate lingoway of talking about it.
But then, You hit the nail on the head.
With that, I want to thank you somuch for being on the podcast, Vannie.
This was a tremendous way to start my day.
I'm gonna be thinking a lotabout this probably for the
rest of my life, I would say.
So I hope our listeners get alot out of it as well, and I
(39:12):
hope you have a really good time.
I.
Vani (39:13):
Just wanted to say that what connects us is this kindness.
So what I wanna be is I wanna be kind atthe minimum, and so I cannot thank you
for being so kind and so patient with me.
I'm so thrilled that I got to dothis and I'm really filled with.
Joy right now, and of course my smilesare also going from year to year.
(39:38):
So I'm sending you lots of loveand I'm sending everybody else
that's listening, lots of loveand joy to them and their family
Mazze (39:46):
members.
I.
Thank you so much, Vonny.
The last thing that we always askon the podcast is if there's anybody
that you want to give a shout out to,if there's any project that you're
particularly excited about that youwant to plug, just is there anything
that you'd like to give a shout out to?
Vani (40:03):
I think I'm gonna shout out to the universe because
the universe belongs to me.
Thank you universe for putting mehere, and I'm so thrilled by the
little birds that are the hummingbirdsthat are outside my window.
These little things, I'm justso thankful for everything.
And of course, the wonderful familythat loves you no matter what,
(40:25):
and constantly challenges you tobe the best version of yourself.
And to my inner voice that.
Is active and yeah.
I just wanna shout out to my mom who is.
Actually my big mountain who has beenthere for me, continuingly supporting me
(40:46):
and my little brother and my husband andmy mother-in-law, and my father-in-law.
So it's not going to end.
So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna shoutout to everybody and my wonderful
team and dancing atoms and allthe artists that are working for
me, for the projects that I have.
So yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you to everybody that's out there.
Thank you.
Mazze (41:05):
Thank you so much.
This has been a beautifulexperience and like I said, one
I will probably never forget.
I hope you have a beautiful day andI'm so excited to see everything
that comes outta Dancing Adams, andI hope we get to talk again soon.
I.
(41:40):
All right.
That's gonna be our show today.
We want to give a big thankyou, Toni, for being our guest.
We want to give a thankyou to our listeners.
We want to give a big thank you to MudsStack, the only digital asset management
and collaboration platform custom builtfor game studios and digital artists.
If you'd like to learn more aboutmuds Stack, head on over to muds
stack.com, join our Discord, or followus on socials, on LinkedIn, Twitter,
(42:03):
Facebook, whatever you're using.
All right.
Thank you so much for listening.
And we'll see you nexttime on Clear As Mud.
Hello everyone and welcome to our podcast, clear as Mud, where we
talk to game developers and artistsfrom all walks of life about their
personal and professional journeys.
I'm your host Maze.
As always, our podcast is presentedby MUDS Stack, the only digital
asset management and collaborationplatform, custom built for game
studios and digital artists.
MUDS Stack is free for artists.
(00:31):
So if you'd like to learn more about MudsStack, head on over to muds stack.com
or join our Discord channel today.
Alright.
Thank you Vni, so much for agreeing tobe here on the Clearest Mud Podcast.
I'm really excited toget to talk to you today.
I've got a couple questions.
I think a lot of our listeners are gonnaget a really good experience out of
all this, so you have such a tremendouscareer and you're really an inspiration.
(00:53):
It was great getting to meet you at GD C and I've been wanting to have you
on the podcast pretty much ever since.
So thank you so much.
Vani (01:00):
Thank you for having me.
This is amazing and I'm a bit nervous.
Mazze (01:05):
No need to be nervous at all.
I'm nervous.
I'm more nervous to talk to you probably,but we've got to chat a little bit
before and so I think that should help.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna go ahead.
I'll just start with oneof my first questions.
Can you just tell me a littlebit about your journey in the
V F X and animation industry?
How did you come into the field?
I would love to hear more aboutwhat inspired you to pursue V
(01:26):
F X and animation as a career.
Vani (01:29):
When I was very young, my father wanted to make animated films.
I was probably eight or nine yearsold and we were living in India.
I remember how much joy he feltwhen he watched some of the Disney
classics like Bambi and Dumboand the Tom and Jerry Shorts.
(01:52):
It allowed him to be a child.
I think.
And it allowed him to be vulnerable.
And it is that, that I thinktranslated, and I can only see that
today when I'm speaking to you,that I think it was that joy on my
(02:14):
father's face of, oh my God, there'sanother way that we can experience.
Storytelling.
There's another waythat we can feel healed.
There's another way that we can feeltherapeutic about watching these movies.
There's another way that we canconnect with a completely different
culture that is not us, but it'sthe underlying human emotion.
(02:41):
And he wanted to make animated films.
He wanted to bring this very specificIndian, what should I say, superpower
hero called Hanman, which is heis a very powerful Indian deity.
I.
Whose entire impression or his wholephilosophy is about friendship?
Hanman is all about love, friendship,and devotion to the people that you love.
(03:06):
And the word devotion has beenconfused as a religious thing in
the Western language, but we allare very devoted to our families.
We all are very devoted to our friendship.
We just don't use that word because.
We have somehow put a verydifferent context to it, but the
(03:29):
entire country of 1.6 some billionpeople uses this as a currency.
Which is very different when I've beenliving here in the States because our
currency, the words are different,but the currency or the underlying
emotion is the same, and it's exactlythat, that he wanted to bring from
(03:52):
a storytelling point of view toshow the vulnerability of Hanman,
who's this mighty, powerful monkey?
God.
But also show the foundationof what that relationship is.
So what is your relationship withyour family, with your friends,
with everything that is around you?
And he wanted to bring those storiesto the world way back in 1984.
(04:16):
And I.
I don't remember if that was thepoint that subconsciously the seed
was rooted in my head saying that thisis the path that you will be taking.
But it did happen asearly as 1984 and 1985.
That was what me and my brother wereintroduced to as another parallel universe
(04:38):
or a metaverse, or whatever you want tocall it, be able to read comic books.
So I think it started at that point thatI wanted to be a storyteller or at least
be a part of that storytelling process.
Mazze (04:52):
Storytelling.
I love that answer.
I think that was so beautifully saidand I was just smiling ear to ear.
I know it's just audio right now, but Wow.
That's actually justmoving to think about it.
That just led directly into my nextquestion, which was gonna be what inspired
you to focus on bridging this gap betweenAsian and North American storytellers
(05:13):
and bringing Asian stories to the world?
And animation, whichyou've already answered.
Yes, I did.
Vani (05:20):
But I think it's, again, seeing the representation on screen, whether
in voice, whether in music, whether inclothing, whether in the sensitivity
of how parents raise their childrenin India, which is very different from
how parents raise their children herein the West, and there are so many.
(05:44):
Tiny, little specific, authenticdetails that have not been presented,
that have not been, there's not enoughdiversity and specificity, and I
believe that when you grow up, whenI grew up, all I was watching from.
(06:08):
Indian films was very specific toIndia, and they were designed in a
particular way to hit certain formulas.
So they were the commercial films,which was a lot of singing and dancing
and imaginary world and visualizationto overcome hurdles was always a
tool in the Indian filmmaking space.
(06:30):
And then you saw the veryWestern films, which again,
focused on the family issues or.
Films like Kremer versus Remer or someof those films were like, oh my God, look
what's happening in the world in the west.
And one watched that film and thoughtthat sitting in India, you always
thought, oh my God, that's what'shappening in the west all the time.
(06:51):
But no, that one film is not therepresentation of the entire United States
or just, you know, when you come with thatkind of a point of view that is, America.
That is Europe.
That is Canada.
And then people that are sitting inthis side of the world are looking
(07:12):
at Indian films and they're going,oh my God, these Indian films, they
just have this dancing and whatever.
And then, hello.
That's not just what we do.
There are other films, butyou don't get to see them.
And I feel like when this kindof biases are getting made, I.
It feels like you need to open anothersmall door to let people in on other ways.
(07:38):
And I think the internet did that in abig way where we started seeing visuals.
We started listening to different partsof the world about what's happening other
than the news that was being fed to us.
So I feel like as a human being,forget as a storyteller, as a human
being, I think we all have stories.
Every single human being has.
(08:00):
Their own unique voice and they allhave something that they absolutely are
different from the other person in theirexperiential journey in their life.
So as I grew up, I felt thatwas not visible and the.
(08:21):
Space was missing.
To put that, to uplift yourselfand say, you know what?
I'm going to, how should I put it?
I'm going to promote myself to do this.
I'm not gonna wait for somebodyto find me and put me on the
spot and give me an opportunity.
Because you could wait.
But then you could alsosay, you know what?
(08:43):
I can do this on my own two feet.
And I think that's when I startedDancing Atoms and decided about
eight years ago that I'm gonnapromote myself to that position to
share my ideas and bridge that gap.
Mazze (09:01):
You took the initiative for yourself to be the change in
the world that you want to be.
I think we hear that phrase a lot,and maybe we don't fully internalize
or understand what it means.
But I think you explainedit very well, and it's also,
again, you're very intuitive.
You've already guessed my next question.
So could you just share some of theinsights into your latest project Dancing
Atoms, and what sets it apart from otherprojects and other studios, and what
(09:24):
can we expect from it down the road?
Vani (09:27):
So I think Dancing Atoms, when I started it, I was just
one person and I was feeling.
I didn't belong anywhere.
I didn't know where I belonged,and it came from that idea that.
I gotta dance, I gotta do my owndance, and it's gonna be awkward.
(09:48):
And so I, I named it like, okay, it'sgonna be like these things that are
happening inside my body that I can'tsee and all around me that the A atoms
are constantly moving in a particular,Pattern in a particular step, and
that's where the name came from.
And because I was alone on the journeyof doing what I was doing, I called it
a Home for Creators, which literallymeant that anybody that had a fantastic
(10:14):
idea can be a part of dancing atoms.
And we built together a Indiacreative collective, and that was.
The birth of dancing atoms.
Obviously I had a lot of concepts thatmy father had written and my mother
had written in the animation space,and they had done so much amount of
(10:35):
research and they never got made.
Another creative friend thatI was trying to help, she
mentioned, Hey, you know what?
You're sitting on gold.
Why don't you just.
Open your treasure box because you havea lot of material that you can polish.
And that started the journey to say,all right, I'm gonna start working
(10:55):
on some of these animation conceptsthat my father and mother had
worked on that never saw the light.
And so that became a journeyon its own, but also I have
immense love for the Himalayas.
And I've been trekking andtraveling the mountains for almost
20, 22 years, or 23 years now.
(11:18):
And every year I've made it a pointto make time for myself to go away
into the mountains all alone with abackpack and just walk and do nothing.
And that kinda led me to wantingto make a documentary as well.
So I've always loved makingdocumentaries, and I would say
documentary was always my first love.
So I decided as an independentfilmmaker that I bought myself
(11:42):
an Icon D 800 and just decidedI'm gonna make my documentary.
So that also was the birth of afterrunning some really big studios to,
to stand out there, to break theboxes and say, I'm gonna do something
that I've always wanted to do.
And I'm gonna give myselfthe permission to do it.
(12:02):
And that was also doing a lot oflive action short films and stuff.
So currently my focus is mostly on writinga lot of amazing stories and ideas,
which have been writing and rewritingmany drafts for my feature concepts.
And I'm pitching some four quadrantreally fun comedy feature films.
(12:24):
And I'm writing for veryyoung children, which is.
Called preschool.
So there's a project called nu, whichgot selected by stories by women.
We selected the project to come to EElast year in 2022, so that was fantastic.
So I'm continuing to pitch thisbeautiful little story for preschoolers.
(12:47):
It's extremely optimistic, very positive.
It's about building on your ideas.
So I'm excited aboutthat and I have another.
Project with a Canadian companythat I'm partnered with called Epic
Story Media, another preschool show,so I'm excited about that as well.
We've pitched it to a lot of peopleand I'm really hoping that we
(13:07):
find a home for those projects.
Mazze (13:09):
I'm super excited to see everything that comes out of
the work that you've been doing.
Just the thought of you, I've met you,and just the thought of you going alone
with a backpack into the Himalayas.
You're so tremendously brave,and so it's no surprise at all to
me that you're branching out andyou're conquering your own mountain.
In your career as well, right?
Like you're taking risks and you'retaking, you're doing what brings you
(13:31):
joy, but also you're trying to bringsomething to the world that's an enriched
and lived in experience for yourself.
And I think that's sotremendously authentic.
Honestly, I wanna see more humanbeings, not just storytellers.
I wanna see exactlythe way you phrased it.
More human beings bringing theirhumanity, whether it's in film or game
or television, just more of that humanelement, especially given so much of
(13:53):
the trends today that we see of machinelearning and that kind of thing.
You're someone who's worked with reallyrenowned studios like Dreamworks Animation
Rhythm in Hugs Asia, and could youjust share some of the valuable lessons
that you've learned along the way thatmay have helped you shape your career?
Vani (14:10):
Yeah, I think, you know, I.
I don't know.
If I was chosen destined, I'dsometimes look back and it feels like
a completely different metaverse.
I want to use that word becauseI never dreamt of running an
Academy Award-winning studio.
(14:31):
I never desired it.
I never wanted to manage people.
I never studied for that, but.
There is something that I've observedabout the lessons of working is that
sometimes what you subconsciously seek ordon't seek arrives in front of you, right?
(14:53):
And you have two choices mostlyeither to say yes to that and go
with that flow or to say no and.
Do what you really are cut outthat you really desire to do.
Sometimes you're very lucky if what showsup in front of you and what you really
want to do are almost the same, whichis, I would say so phenomenally awesome.
(15:16):
What are the chances, right?
What are the chances thatyou get to do what you love?
And so at working like in India formany years and then having given this.
Opportunity to set up Rhythm and Hughes,which was an Academy Award-winning
studio based in Los Angeles.
I got the opportunity to start and buildRhythm and Hughes in India in 2001.
(15:41):
Some of the most valuable lessons thatI would say that I've learned is trust.
What does trust the power of trustin a workplace can make things.
So I don't even know if I have words forit, but trust can make you feel at home.
(16:05):
Trust can make you do wonders.
Trust can build relationships,and so I was trusted with this.
I had never been to the US andnever traveled to the US and I was
hired over a dial-up connection.
So I feel like what made theother person on the other end.
(16:26):
To trust me.
What choices did they have?
Not meeting a person over a phone call,not even a video call to say, this
person, I trust this person to do this.
It's such a simple thing.
If you actually break it down,it's as simple as saying, I trust
you it and I believe in you.
(16:47):
How hard is it for us to do that?
When that was put on me, Iquestioned so many things.
I was like, what?
How, what, what?
Like, how do I run a company?
And you trust me with money and youtrust me with my judgment, and you
trust me with making the right choicesand decisions and building a studio.
(17:10):
Like it was just a lot of confusion.
It was like an emotional h, like it wasa rollercoaster ride emotionally because,
99.9% of the time, people do not wannabelieve you and people do not wanna trust
you, including a little bit of yourself.
(17:32):
We're internally fighting ourcritical voice all the time.
That's saying, you can't do this.
Now you have the external voices thatgive you a little bit of belief and
trust, but not a hundred percent.
And I think my big learning lesson wasthe way that the founders of Rhythm and
Hughes, Pauline, John Hughes, Pauline, soJohn Hughes and Keith Goldfarb had this.
(18:00):
Control, but lack of controlin just saying, we are going
to trust you to do this.
And now I who was sitting here inIndia had to figure out how can I
imbibe that value and pass it forward.
(18:20):
Was there any otherway that I can do this?
Can I trust the next group ofpeople that I am going to hire?
Can I trust them?
Can I believe in them?
It is the hardest thingand also the easiest thing.
So I think that's one of thebiggest takeaways for me.
And then I think workinginternationally, I.
(18:43):
At rhythmic use going back to Los Angelesto connect with the mothership as I
call it, and then coming back to India.
And then we set up anotherstudio in Malaysia.
And then in Taiwan, I realized thatthe artists want to belong and that
the artists want to be taken care of.
(19:05):
And that talent was universal.
So these were the other values thatI learned over a period of time.
By just managing people.
Super talented people, by the way, becauseI felt like those are the same things
that I want for myself, whether I'm anartist or not, but that's what I want.
I want to be respected.
(19:25):
I want to be valued.
I want to be taken care of.
I want to be appreciated forwhat I do, and I'm talented and
I think that's everybody, right?
Nobody wakes up and says, I'mgoing to do bad work today.
Anybody wakes up and says, I'mgonna do a funny job today.
So I think there was so much thatI realized and didn't realize
(19:47):
also at the right time thatthis was the universal thing.
This was very universal, thatyou have to take care of people.
And I remember.
One of the few meetings that I had withJohn Hughes, who was the founder of Rhythm
and Hughes, I asked him, John, you'vehired me to run India and manage it.
What do you expect from me?
(20:07):
And he literally said, just these words, Ijust want you to take care of the people.
And I was like, wait, what?
You don't hear that?
Like who?
Who tells you to take care ofpeople, but also someone who.
Knows that if you do that,everything else falls in place.
(20:30):
Like everything will fall in place becauseyou now value your peers, your team
members, and it builds a certain dynamic.
And I'm telling you the magicthat we created building
those four studios in Asia.
Was addictive.
We were on a high just because of thisvery simple concept of trust and let that
(20:56):
trust continue and let that multiply.
And I love the multiplicationeffect because then the trust
amplified and multiplied andhappiness amplified and multiplied.
The quality of work amplified.
The belonging multipliedlike everybody felt belonged.
(21:16):
Nobody felt like they didn't belong.
I think it's very magical and I would lovefor people to try it out as an experiment.
It does do great wonders if one cancondition themself to do that, and I
think at Dreamworks, one of the mostequally powerful things that I learned is.
(21:38):
Taking care of people is important,but also the financial wellbeing of
running a studio is equally important.
Not that it's more or less, but it'sequally important because you need to
look at it from a business point of view.
The visual effects and animationindustry is a business, but you can,
(22:01):
you have to always keep a pulse, likeyou always have to read that pulse very.
Regularly and carefully because it'svery hard to be in this business.
I would say it's one of the toughestbusinesses to be in is the entertainment
Mazze (22:19):
industry.
I think people perform pretty wellwhen there's stability, but the
entertainment industry as a wholeis naturally pretty volatile.
It can go a lot of differentways at different times, and that
can have tremendous effects onpeople's psychological wellbeing.
People have families to take care of,they have to put a roof over their
heads, and it's hard to be creativeand be inspired when you're not
(22:40):
entirely sure that you're gonna havea job three months from down the line.
That's something I've picked updefinitely from talking to so many
different people on the podcast,mostly in the gaming industry.
Also in the film industry and V F X.
That's just my personal experience.
Vani (22:55):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think the deepest desire to be seen issatisfied by being in the film industry
or the visual effects animation industryor anything where you're visible.
And then the name, like the desireto be famous is also attached
with this industry so deeply that.
(23:17):
That.
I would say that a lot of thecompanies, I'm saying that the
individuals themselves have to also.
Be aware what their deepest desire is tobe visible, to be heard, to be famous,
to have a name and a reputation, butit's all coming at a cost, which is your
physical health and your mental health.
(23:38):
So instead of pointing fingers tostudios or to companies, I think
individually the artists have to valuethemselves and know and create that
work-life balance as we move forward.
Mazze (23:54):
Do you have any advice that you'd want to give to aspiring creatives who
are interested in pursuing a career inV F X animation, the game industry, just
the entertainment industry as a whole?
Vani (24:05):
Personally, the advice that I would give my younger self is talk
to people, reach out to talent.
That's out there.
Have a coffee zoom call, or if youhave the luxury to meet the person
in person, then please go meet them.
Get studio tours.
Before you decide on taking up a careerthere, write down your pros and cons
(24:28):
and write down your goals that youwanna achieve and, and the sacrifices
you will make to achieve those.
So like really deepdive into it if you can.
And then, Way out your optionsbecause sometimes we may not even
know that's what we want, but we arein that position and we accept it.
(24:50):
But later, 10, 15 years later, if you'relike burnt out or if you realize, oh my
God, this is not what I wanted to do.
Or, oh my goodness, this is exactlywhere I wanted to be and I'm so happy
I did what I'm doing, that's also cool.
But I think like regularly, Talking topeople in the industry, going to events
(25:10):
outside of your one field, because I thinklike in the last three years, there's
been a huge shift in the narrative, instorytelling and in in the narratives.
Educate yourself regularly.
Listen to some great podcasts, or goto exhibitions, events, conferences.
There's so many happeningin your location or outside.
(25:33):
Invest in that.
Invest in your.
Because when you work only for one companyor one studio, it's great that you're
loyal and you're dedicated, but it's alsoequally important that you understand
what's happening and how valuable you arein this big something that's out there.
(25:57):
I constantly try and learn.
Things every day.
If I can, I'll read something verydifferent from what I'm doing.
Nothing related towriting or storytelling.
I'll read about fashion.
I'll read about how many fans arebeing made in America every day.
I'll just read about strange thingsbecause I'm just aware a little bit more
(26:20):
about what's happening in the industry.
But like above and beyond theindustry, just to know that
it's good to do multiple things.
It's good to invest time andenergy in multiple things.
So you have a.
Some kind of a securityor a fallback sometimes.
(26:41):
I've been pitching my projects forabout six years, and I've known people
whose projects have been green litin two years and three years, and
I've also known people whose projectshave not been green lit for 16 years.
So this creative spaceis, what should I say?
So attractive but extremely competitive.
(27:06):
There's very little.
Space there, or it's very tightly held.
I think there's abundance, but I also feellike it's tightly held by decision makers.
And the truth is, it's a business.
I can come in from being anextremely passionate writer, creator,
filmmaker, but at the end of theday, I should have done my best.
(27:30):
But I can't depend only on this.
I have to either teach or.
Right.
Another thing for a gaming company.
So my narrative has to expandabove and beyond one thing,
and I think that's the future.
So yeah, I would say the adviceis talk to a lot of people.
(27:51):
Talk to the interconnectingfields as much as you can.
Mazze (27:56):
And I just have to say this for our listeners, this is advice that
you can trust because I met V at GD C and you were there, and it's the
first thing you said to me, basically.
I'm paraphrasing of course, but it's,I don't know what I'm doing here,
but I'm just here to figure it out.
You were taking your own advice.
You were going into this environment whereyou wanted to learn more about the game
industry, and you came right up to me.
(28:17):
Maybe I came up to you one way orthe other, and you started talking to
me about your vision and your story,and it immediately just made me feel.
Such a great appreciation for you.
I had no idea who you were, whatwas your background, what was on
your resume or anything like that.
And I was just immediately drawnto this creative passion and this
aura that you had about you and thisvery chaotic gaming conference with
(28:40):
people from all around the world.
You definitely stood out, but I thinkthat you do take your own advice.
And then the other thing I wantedto say is that there is profundity
in the obscure, and I draw a lot ofinspiration every day from weird,
random things that I have no ideaabout, like eating weird food.
I.
I'm here in the south.
There's weird things like friedpickles and okra and things
(29:02):
that I've never ate before.
And maybe they're not strange tosome people, but to me they are.
And it's inspiring.
I take those things and I putthem away in a filing cabinet and
I'm like, I'm going to use thatand I'm gonna enrich my writing.
At some point, I'm gonnaenrich my experience.
I do just think that it's reallysolid advice and you live and you
practice your own advice, and that'snot always something that we see.
Vani (29:25):
No thank you.
I was very apprehensive, vulnerable,scared, unsure about attending G D C
because it's like, I've heard about itfor many years, but I was like, wait,
what am I gonna achieve from going here?
And I was like, why am I overthinking it?
I'll go.
It's not about, so I think theexpectations that we have of ourself
(29:46):
that I have to achieve and everything hasto become something I've learned that.
It comes full circle like alot of the relationships that
I have made professionally.
About even maybe 20 years ago have somehowconnected back to me 20 years later.
(30:08):
And now I'm working with them on aproject and I'm like, wait, I never
planned for that, but I am so gladthat person and I had met 20 years ago.
And look at what kind ofa joy, like the, like.
It's so amazing how these randomconversations, these random meetings
are somehow, It's like a dance thatyou just don't realize what your next
(30:34):
move is, but it is going to happenat some point if you, it's kind of
lovely to embrace uncertainties.
All I'm trying to say is coming toG D C and saying, you know what?
I don't know what's gonnahappen, but I'm gonna go.
Right.
I absolutely loved coming up to you.
I think I came up and I was curiousabout what your studio was doing.
(30:55):
And I was like, Hey, can youtell me a little bit more?
And then you asked me, and then itwent to a beautiful conversation,
and then I met your other friends.
So it's great.
Like I've made a relationship, I'vemade a new friend, I've made a new
contact, which was not about, I'm gonnago get this, but this was more organic
and more satisfying in so many ways.
(31:17):
So I think the advice is, again, like younever know who you are going to bump into.
Right.
And another very quick advice, notthat I'm capable of giving advices, but
something that's absolutely transformedmy life is practicing silence, and I
wanna tell the whole world about it.
It's just amazing.
(31:39):
If you could just not talk, turn offyour gadgets and step away for 24 hours.
At least once a month if you can affordto, or whenever you can afford to do that,
to just completely just be with yourself.
Nothing else.
I've realized that myawareness has increased.
(32:04):
I feel more sensitive about myselfand the people I'm surrounded by.
I feel immense gratitudeby practicing silence.
I value being in this body, I should say.
So there's just a lot of wonderfulside effects of being silent.
So I would absolutely suggest requestadvice, give it a try at least.
(32:29):
It may not be foreverybody, but at least give
Mazze (32:31):
it a try.
I love the way that you originallyput it of, I want to tell the whole
world about practicing silence.
There's such an intrinsicquality to that statement.
I'm gonna put it on my mirror.
Okay.
I have more questions.
So a lot of people, especially in thegaming industry, they're moving away from
this idea of going and working for 20to 25 years at AAA Studio, and instead
(32:54):
they're embarking on independent careers,sometimes at very young ages and going
off and founding their own game studioor filmmaking studios, what have you.
Um, could you just talk about some ofthe challenges you faced when you were
founding Dancing Atoms and how you wereable to overcome them or how you're
still in the process of overcoming them?
And then the code to that is, whatabout those challenges excites you
(33:17):
or keeps you motivated and makes youknow that you're on the right track?
Because I think that there's, thisis my own personal philosophy, but I
think that if something's worth doing,it's probably not going to be easy.
You're gonna face challenges.
If it's easy, it might notactually be worth doing.
And that's just my ownpersonal philosophy.
Take it or leave it.
(33:37):
But yeah.
So my question is for those people whoare, especially our younger audience
who are going and embarking on foundingtheir own studio, maybe not advice,
but what's just your own experience?
Vani (33:49):
So I can talk a little bit about my learnings and the shortcomings.
I wanna say that when I decided I'm gonnastart my own studio, I should have talked
to 10 other people first, which I didn't.
I would highly recommend do that,talk to people about what it is to
do a startup completely on your own.
I've built studios.
(34:09):
I've built five studios aroundthe world for other people, right?
And I know what it is to build forothers, but like building something
for yourself is a completely different.
I don't wanna call it a beast or amonster, but it's completely different.
I would say it's like you are creatingsomething and you have a goal and you have
(34:33):
something in your mind, but the amountof research one should do before they
start something is very important because.
At least for me, I think today, ifI were to start another company, I
would absolutely do a lot of research.
First.
I would get a lot of advices.
I would even probably go to therapyand ask myself, why am I doing this?
(34:57):
So those basic questions, whichI use as a tool for me, is
what, why, where, when, and how.
Um, I use that in every form, like inmy communication in dealing with my
artists, in dealing with my producers.
In every relationship.
I think those are the questionsthat I always ask before I do
(35:20):
stuff because it makes me stronger.
It makes me powerful.
It makes me knowledgeable andintuitive to say, okay, I am doing
this because of this and not some.
Superficial thing that I was going after.
It is extremely hard to start upyour own company unless you already
(35:40):
have friends or clients that arewilling to give you business.
Then if you have that, then that'sa wonderful blessing to start with,
where someone is already seeing thevalue that you're going to bring.
And is willing to give you that work.
So your starting problems are not likeyour teething problems or your starting
(36:03):
problems are not as hard as someone whohas no idea and is starting from scratch
with no contacts, with no relationships,and has to continue developing their
own content like I am doing on my own.
I think those are the biggest thingsis research, preparing, planning,
(36:26):
progressing, stepping back a littlebit and then reviewing it again.
And we all have goals.
And that's another wonderful thing thatI've learned over this past six years,
eight years of being independent, is thatif my goal is to create stories, Have my
(36:48):
stories be visible in film theaters oron screens all around the world, and to
be on the top OT platforms or whatever.
That's my goal.
I.
But to actually have an action planof what are all my gaps to get there.
So I call it like really filling up,filling in the blanks in a very childlike
(37:10):
way to say, cool, I wanna be there.
I wanna win that Academy Award.
I wanna win that for my filmas one of the best filmmakers.
But guess what?
These are all the.
50 things that I have to do to get there.
And then there is the uncertainty ofanother 50 things that I can't even
(37:31):
think about, that I can't even visualize.
But being absolutely aware is, Ithink the goal of being successful
and being specific, not justgeneric, but like extremely specific.
Telling the universe to support youon that mission and like literally
(37:55):
calling for it and saying, I want itlike this and this, and calling that
very specifically and being focusedis one of the most challenging things
of running a business, I would say.
Mazze (38:08):
Wow.
Yeah, that's more than I could haveeven asked from for that answer.
I think.
I love the analogy of filling in theblanks and being honest with yourself,
and then also starting your own company,starting your own creative venture.
There's an inherently Cchildlike quality to it.
It reflects this question that we'reasked a lot in our childhood of what
do you want to be when you grow up?
(38:28):
And I think that it's interesting,the answers that you'll get
from children, they're soaspirational and they're inspiring.
Then sometimes they'rea little rudimentary and
mundane, and that's okay too.
And I think everybody fallssomewhere along that spectrum.
And so it's inspiring for meto see so many creative people
going off and taking those risks.
But I do think that, yeah,if you have these goals, you
(38:50):
need to fill in the blanks.
You need to make your plans,make your action items.
It's the corporate lingoway of talking about it.
But then, You hit the nail on the head.
With that, I want to thank you somuch for being on the podcast, Vannie.
This was a tremendous way to start my day.
I'm gonna be thinking a lotabout this probably for the
rest of my life, I would say.
So I hope our listeners get alot out of it as well, and I
(39:12):
hope you have a really good time.
I.
Vani (39:13):
Just wanted to say that what connects us is this kindness.
So what I wanna be is I wanna be kind atthe minimum, and so I cannot thank you
for being so kind and so patient with me.
I'm so thrilled that I got to dothis and I'm really filled with.
Joy right now, and of course my smilesare also going from year to year.
(39:38):
So I'm sending you lots of loveand I'm sending everybody else
that's listening, lots of loveand joy to them and their family
Mazze (39:46):
members.
I.
Thank you so much, Vonny.
The last thing that we always askon the podcast is if there's anybody
that you want to give a shout out to,if there's any project that you're
particularly excited about that youwant to plug, just is there anything
that you'd like to give a shout out to?
Vani (40:03):
I think I'm gonna shout out to the universe because
the universe belongs to me.
Thank you universe for putting mehere, and I'm so thrilled by the
little birds that are the hummingbirdsthat are outside my window.
These little things, I'm justso thankful for everything.
And of course, the wonderful familythat loves you no matter what,
(40:25):
and constantly challenges you tobe the best version of yourself.
And to my inner voice that.
Is active and yeah.
I just wanna shout out to my mom who is.
Actually my big mountain who has beenthere for me, continuingly supporting me
(40:46):
and my little brother and my husband andmy mother-in-law, and my father-in-law.
So it's not going to end.
So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna shoutout to everybody and my wonderful
team and dancing atoms and allthe artists that are working for
me, for the projects that I have.
So yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you to everybody that's out there.
Thank you.
Mazze (41:05):
Thank you so much.
This has been a beautifulexperience and like I said, one
I will probably never forget.
I hope you have a beautiful day andI'm so excited to see everything
that comes outta Dancing Adams, andI hope we get to talk again soon.
I.
(41:40):
All right.
That's gonna be our show today.
We want to give a big thankyou, Toni, for being our guest.
We want to give a thankyou to our listeners.
We want to give a big thank you to MudsStack, the only digital asset management
and collaboration platform custom builtfor game studios and digital artists.
If you'd like to learn more aboutmuds Stack, head on over to muds
stack.com, join our Discord, or followus on socials, on LinkedIn, Twitter,
(42:03):
Facebook, whatever you're using.
All right.
Thank you so much for listening.
And we'll see you nexttime on Clear As Mud.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.