Climate Change, American Catholics, and Laudato Si with Jose Aguto

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:00):
You are listening to Climate Changed, a, uh,
podcast about pursuing faith, life
and love in a climate changed world.

>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:08):
Hosted by me, Nicole Diroff
and me, Ben Yoshua Davis. Climate Changed
features guests who deepen the conversation while also
stirring the waters.

Hello listeners, thank you for joining Ben and
me. In this episode, Ben is going to share a
conversation he had with, uh, Jose Aguto. Uh,
he is a dedicated advocate for climate action
who is deeply rooted in his Catholic faith.

Jose and I had a rich conversation about his
faith, the Catholic Church in the United States and
Pope Francis global impact in providing
spiritual and moral leadership in a climate changed
world. Nicole will then join me to share our thoughts and
responses to what Jose shared with us.

As always, in a moment we will provide you
with a, uh, time to center and prepare for the
conversation. At the end of the show, one of
our producers will join us to share meaningful next
steps you can take to address climate change in
your community.

But first, before we get there, Nicole, I have to
ask, did you have any childhood
experiences encountering a different faith
tradition or visiting someone else's place of
worship?

Great question. As a child I
was being raised in a congregational
church and had the chance to
visit my father's
extended family's Catholic, uh,
church. And it felt very different to
me. I remember thinking I don't know when to
stand or sit or move my

(01:40):
hands and sometimes I didn't
understand the language that was being spoken.
So while I love
the sense that we are part of one body of
Christ, at this point in my life,
visiting a Catholic church actually felt like
an interfaith encounter when I was young.

(02:01):
How about you, Ben?

My high school girlfriend went to a Mennonite
church and invited me to go and visit this
Mennonite congregation. Afterwards we
were talking on the phone, she asked me what I thought about it and being as I
was a 15 year old male jerk, I
proceeded to tell her all the ways that
her church was worse than my church. Um,

(02:24):
as you might imagine, that did not go over very well and
was actually this wonderful moment of challenge where
I began to realize you can't act like jerks to
other people when there's causes for religious
difference.

Well, I can say that at this point in my
life I find being in
spaces where other people are doing their meaning
making thing is like maybe my
favorite place to be. I got to hang out with some
Quakers recently and silence M is
not totally my thing, but it was
amazing to be present with people making meaning

(02:59):
in that way. A lot of this season
has been that for Us. It's been
a chance to hear how people are making meaning in
this climate changed world. Jose is going to bring us
another version of that today.
So before we hear Ben's conversation with Jose Aguto, uh,
we will pause here for a moment of centering.

(03:20):
To help us center. We will hear words from
Laudato Si on care for our
common home.

This encyclical by Pope Francis was
released about 10 years ago. It addresses the urgent
need to tackle climate change and environmental
degradation. It emphasizes the moral
responsibility to protect the planet and highlights
the interconnectedness of social, economic and
environmental issues.

Now let's hear some members of the BTS center
staff team reading excerpts from
Laudato Si.

>> Peterson Toscano (03:54):
The urgent challenge to protect our common
home includes a concern to
bring the whole human family together
to seek a sustainable and integral development.
For we know that things can
change. The Creator does
not abandon us. The Creator never

(04:14):
forsakes his loving plan or repents of
having created us. Humanity still has
the ability to work together in building our common
home. Here I want to
recognize, encourage and thank
all those striving in countless
ways to guarantee the protection of the home
which we share. Particular appreciation is

(04:36):
owed to those who tirelessly seek to
resolve the tragic effects of environmental
degradation on the lives of the world's
poorest young. People
demand change. They wonder
how anyone can claim to be building
a better future without thinking of the
environmental crisis and the sufferings

(04:59):
of the excluded.

>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (05:03):
What kind of world do we want to leave to
those who come after us? To children who
are now growing up? This question
not only concerns the environment in
isolation, the issue cannot be
approached piecemeal. When we
ask ourselves what kind of world we want to leave
behind, we think in the first place

(05:26):
of its general direction, its meaning,
and its values. Unless we struggle
with these deeper issues, I do not believe that our
concern for ecology will produce significant
results.
But if these issues are courageously
faced.
We are led inexorably to ask other
pointed questions. What is the

(05:48):
purpose of our life in this world?
Why are we here? What is the
goal of our work and all our
efforts? What need does the Earth have of
us? It is no longer enough then
simply to state that we should be concerned for
future generations.
We need to see that what is.

(06:09):
At stake is our own dignity.
Leaving an inhabitable planet to
future generations is first and
foremost up to us. The issue
is one which dramatically affects us, for it
has to do with the ultimate meaning of our earthly
sojourn.

>> Peterson Toscano (06:31):
I urgently appeal, then, for a new
dialogue about how we are shaping the future
of our planet. We need a conversation which
includes everyone. Since the environmental
challenge we are undergoing and its human roots
concern and affect all of us.
The worldwide ecological movement has already

(06:51):
made considerable progress and led to the
establishment of numerous organizations
committed to raising awareness of these challenges.
Regrettably, many efforts to
seek concrete solutions to the environmental
crisis have proved
ineffective, not only because of
powerful opposition, but also because of

(07:13):
a more general lack of interest.
Obstructionist attitudes, even on the part of
believers, can range from denial of the
problem to indifference, nonchalant
resignation, or blind confidence in technical
solutions. We require a, uh,
new and universal solidarity. As
the bishops of Southern Africa have stated,

(07:36):
everyone's talents and involvement are needed
to redress the damage caused by human
abuse of God's creation.
All of us can cooperate as
instruments of God for the care of
creation, each according to
his, her or their
own culture, experience,

(07:59):
involvements, and talents.

I recently met Jose Aguto and I was struck
by his depth of knowledge and breadth of
experience. With a career spanning over two
decades, he has worked tirelessly to address climate change
through a lens of, uh, social justice and moral
responsibility.

Until recently, Jose Aguto served as the
Associate Director of the Catholic Climate
Covenant, where he played a key role in promoting
climate action within the Catholic community.
He focused on education,
advocacy, and mobilizing Catholics
to address climate change through the lens of faith
and social justice.

Jose has also served as Senior Legislative
Secretary at the Friends Committee on UH National
Legislation and Senior Policy Advisor at uh, the
National Congress of American Indians. His career
spans various legal and policy positions
reflecting a deep commitment to environmental
protection, sustainability and social justice
through a faith based lens.

(09:00):
Our conversation begins with Jose sharing the story of what
led him to address climate change and social justice
through the lens of his Catholic faith. I'm
curious if you might be willing to share your
story of what called you to the work that you do right now
around environment and climate, where it comes from
in your own life.

>> Jose Aguto (09:19):
When I was in law school, um, several decades
ago, um, I asked myself the question, who are the
peoples, uh, most abused by the rule of law or the
lack of application of the rule of law? My
answer was, uh, Native Americans, Indigenous
peoples. Before coming to the faith community,
I worked for 12 years for Tribal nations at
EPA and then also the National Congress of American

(09:42):
Indians and was really blessed to go to
Indian country and spend time seeing
how the natural environment naturally
infused into the beings of, uh, indigenous
peoples their ceremony, their culture, their
society, their ways of life, their
survival. It was that natural
interconnectivity that had no, if you

(10:03):
will, boundaries to it between these various
categories that I mentioned, which really struck me.
I learned to grow into that. And
then uh, while I was working for NCAI and
lobbying Congress, their issues
were not being taken up sincerely by
Congress. And after four years of frustration, as
well as seeing the collapse of climate legislation, I

(10:26):
wasn't hearing a particularly strong
moral call from the faith community. So
then moved to the Quakers, the Friends Committee on National
Legislation to lift up a moral call.
We were able to persuade some House
Republicans to introduce a resolution called
the Gibson Resolution a, uh, week prior to Pope Francis
visit to Capitol Hill in September

(10:48):
2015 to break Republican silence
on climate change. And that was a faith filled call. We
were coming not as partisans but in the interest
of our common home and our common future.
I decided to move to the Catholic Church as a cradle
Catholic because though Pope Francis issued laudato
si, wasn't seeing a lot of action from that and enthusiasm
for the U.S. catholic Church at that time,

(11:11):
even though the Quakers and the Protestants and
the Jews and the Muslims were just absolutely thrilled by this as
well as Bill McKibben, he was absolutely thrilled by Laudato Si.
So I moved to the Catholic Climate Covenant to help
the Church lift into this call to care
for creation. One of the
reasons why I came also into the faith space, it

(11:32):
wasn't just some sort of strategic move. It was
also a spiritual discernment,
a need for me in the
challenge, the true psychological and
spiritual challenge of trying to work on an issue
where the science and the impacts
are screaming at us.
I needed to return to my faith and

(11:53):
strength in the Creator in order to carry forth with this
work.

It's really interesting to me how you
describe the trajectory of your journey
from working in secular spaces to working
in faith oriented spaces. Part of that
was about the ability to add some moral language
and some moral urgency to the current
situation that we're in.

The moral call was necessary to
lift up. And if you look at for
example Laudato Si, paragraph 4,
Pope Paul VI in 1971
said we need a radical change in the conduct of
humanity and no economic,
political, technological fix will be
sufficient unless there is a

(12:40):
accompanying moral and cultural
strength to that. And arguably we
as a human civilization have never really stepped deeply into the
moral dimensions of what we're doing, what we allege
to be progress. Now more so than
ever with the climate crisis, we have to be much
bolder about lifting up that moral call.

I think you're pointing out something really important here,
which is that There is a significant moral
dimension to this crisis that I think sometimes can get
wiped away in all the conversations about
technology and policy. Not to say that technology
and policy are not important, but
there is a moral dimension. There is something here about how

(13:21):
we human together that's really important
for our listeners who might not be familiar with Laudato
Si or I know, its sequel as well, Laudato Diem. And
both of them are really startlingly
frank, straightforward documents about the
moral implications of the climate crisis.
I'm curious if you could just give us a really quick summary

(13:41):
of what Pope Francis is sharing in those documents,
and then the impact that you've seen it make among those who are
in your Catholic spaces.

Pope Francis starts with an
explanation of the Church's
awareness of our, uh,
interrelationship with creation,
grounded in theology, as well
as the statements of previous
popes, and lays out
in scientific, moral,

(14:12):
political and economic analyses in
various chapters how we as
humanity have strayed from our care for
creation. He does ground it in
the sacredness that the Catholic Church holds for the life and
dignity of the human person, then
calls for us to radically change our
behaviors in order to prevent the climate

(14:34):
crisis moving into Laudato Dam.
That is the document where he does call it a climate
crisis and exhibits an
exasperation and a concern that eight years
after the publication of Laudato Si, we still not have
seen transformation of
our industrial and our political
systems that are embracing

(14:57):
the climate crisis to the scales that
it needs to be addressed. So, as you mentioned, uh,
there's an increasing urgency in his own language
about us needing to step into this based
on our need to nourish ourselves
internally, and we touch each other
spiritually first as the grounding that
results in this ecological conversion in the

(15:20):
systems in which we live. So
it has been a particular inspiration for me to work with
our constituents, many of whom are
parishioners, working assiduously to
convince their pastors and bishops to step
into this, recognizing that many of them are
unfamiliar with the topic. But
now to see very tangible

(15:41):
progress across the board in the
Catholic Church. And it's a really exciting time for
us.

So I'm curious then, um, how does that work out in
the context of the Catholic parishes that
you're working with? What has been your experience, attempting
to connect them with the roots of their faith,
tradition and practice, um,
to this moral vision that
the Catholic tradition is offering up?

The greatest commandment calls us to love God with all of our
heart, all of our soul, and all of our strength, and to Love our neighbors
as ourselves. And this is the foundation. You don't
hear love creation in the
theological traditions. And what is being taught in the
seminaries is not centered
on creation or in many places, it's not even mentioned or

(16:29):
just in passing. Read laudato si and we'll talk about it
for a class and move on. So the theology
in and of itself isn't well formed around this. So that's an inherent
challenge. But there is now consideration
of recognizing creation
as something integral. And Pope Francis says
this in laudato si, integral to our
faith, not an addition. And the U.S. conference of

(16:52):
Catholic Bishops also has statements in this way. And so how
do we live into this? How do we bring
in this ethic that hasn't been
emphasized over 2000 years of tradition?
So you take, for example, the. The training
of our consecrated, who have been more
anthropocentric in their orientation
and their formation, and bring in care

(17:15):
for creation as integral to that. And
Pope Francis says it's all connected. So caring for
creation means caring for our vulnerable
neighbors, means caring for the
Creator, because that's the first sentence in the
Bible, and that's the first sentence in the
Nicene Creed that God is the creator of heaven
and earth, all things visible and invisible. Going back

(17:37):
to the very basic of, uh, if you love God,
then you love his creation. We want to
take that grounding into the space
of prayer, word and action. And so
our story is with the Catholic climate Covenant
is helping the Catholic Church
step into those three parts which are
sequential to pray, to understand the word, and

(18:00):
to discern and to act. So it has been
a particular inspiration for me to work with our
constituents, many of whom are parishioners,
working assiduously to convince their pastors
and bishops to step into this, recognizing
that many of them are unfamiliar with the topic.
But now to see very tangible
progress across the board in the Catholic

(18:22):
Church, and it's a really exciting time for
us.

What stories might you be able to offer us about the opportunities
that open up?

There is a diocese, they are
going to commit to being net zero,
not just saying it, and creating what we would
call a laudato si action plan, which is what the
Vatican requests of all diocese. And it's easy
to, well, relatively easy to say, I will commit to a
plan implementing that, as you may know,

(18:51):
is another ball of wax.
So for a diocese which has perhaps
hundreds of churches, tens
of schools, hospitals,
hospices, all kinds of facilities to care
for their flock, how do you get them
to net zero in one
diocese The CFO reached out

(19:14):
to the business community, the Catholic business community.
And now we have commitments from
Catholic business leaders in energy
efficiency, energy audits,
accounting, renewable energy
buildings, retrofits
willing to offer their services to the
archdiocese to live into this and to

(19:36):
practice it. This is one of
the most critical developments in our
efforts, and we've had long standing efforts with
diocese to help them step into actual
implementation of Laudato SI through Net
zero. This is the most comprehensive, and it brings in
so much of the Catholic community in this
archdiocese, which is a conservative state,

(19:58):
to have profound implications and
resonance with this archbishop and
his fellow bishops. And so that
is the pivot, the tipping
point, which can then convince
other bishops that this indeed can be done when
you access the fullness of the Catholic

(20:19):
community in your diocese.
There are conservatives who
are deeply concerned about climate change. And we
heard that in 2015 they would say so privately. They wouldn't
commit publicly. There is a
group of conservative business
leaders from conservative parties who are
deeply concerned about climate change. And, um,

(20:41):
they are actually providing funding for some of these efforts, but
they don't want to be known because in the partisan
politics of today, that would get them
ousted from the party. We want to,
and we continue to talk quietly
with these courageous conservatives to figure out
ways to lift them up and bring them in quietly.
So this is part of that quiet dimension

(21:04):
to then lift up these folks
into this space in a good and constructive
way. And my
focus has been, since I was working with the Quakers and with the
Catholics, is grounded in your faith.
So having these conservatives say,
what would your faith tradition tell you about your

(21:25):
decision making processes? Ought that not influence your
decision making processes? You know, think about your
children, think about your legacy. And if you understand
the gravity of the climate crisis, ought this now
be the time for you to exhibit that moral courage?
And we will help you with that. We will provide you with that
spiritual grounding and also, if necessary, you

(21:45):
know that, that political support in order for you to do
that.

That is amazing.
And before you get to your next story, I wanted to ask. You mentioned
that this is in a conservative Catholic diocese.
Um, I think the experience of many religious leaders is that it's
really hard to start conversations about climate
when in many, um, conservative settings, just saying,
the words climate change are kind of verboten. So I'm curious
in that setting, um, what was it that enabled

(22:10):
that diocese to engage really
significantly, um, with this issue without perhaps
tripping over some of these political cultural landmines that
are a part of the American landscape? Right now?

Well, as we know, it first starts with relationship.
Uh, and one of the phrases, one of the words that Pope
Francis and in the Catholic terminology
is encounter. So encountering that
person, um,
regardless of where he or her is on
with regard to their resonance with your
opinions. And going back to

(22:46):
the, uh, the adage, love your neighbor
and in the Gospel also love your
enemy. So, and coming to this
space, as the Quakers would say, seeking that
of God in everyone. So though there are,
there may have been differences or a, uh, lack of
understanding, we had one person who has a very

(23:06):
strong theological foundation who
encountered his archbishop
and provided him the moral and
theological basis for him to step into
laudato si. And that archbishop's
response is, I can't argue with
you. This makes perfect sense. I need to
do it. And then he then convinced the

(23:29):
people in the office in the archdiocese to go forth
and implement it. So it was that kind of
conversion, one to one.

That is amazing in part because I know that's really
hard work. One of the things that I have
noted within the American
Protestant context, which is the context in which I
grew up, is oftentimes congregations
are very disconnected from, uh, the roots of
their tradition. Oftentimes when there are conversations
about discerning, for instance, how should we engage with climate

(24:00):
or care of the earth, those happen
through fundamentally secular
lenses that can be useful but actually aren't
who they are at, uh, their identity.

Catherine Hayhoe is a great communicator across
divides and differences, both with her faith
and her scientific expertise.
One of the talks she gave was explaining that
in order to reach, for example, the Knights of
Columbus or the Rotary Club, who
are pretty much identified as conservative,

(24:31):
very, very well intentioned and doing great work in
the world, but having a sort of a
conservative orientation. So she said, going
to a Rotary Club meeting, as she was walking through
the door, she saw the values that they were upholding,
which are common to our faiths
and wove climate change
as being completely related to the values

(24:54):
that she read from the Rotary Club
charter. I was on a call with some of our
constituents, and one of whom is a Rotary Club
member, and I mentioned Catherine
Hayhoe. And he smiled and he said, well, you know, the Rotary Club,
for, say, time immemorial, we
have been seeking to eradicate polio across the
world. That's their mission. And they've been able to do it

(25:16):
in almost everywhere, except for perhaps two places, one of
which is Somalia. An incredible
achievement. And he said, the Rotary Club has
decided that climate change is going to be our next
mission. He
cited Katharine Hayhoe as one of the
influences for their pivot. Bam.

That's amazing.
I know we've been talking a lot about kind of the American
context, but of course Roman Catholicism is
a global religion. So I'm curious. How is the
American Catholic Church's response to climate
change different from other
parts of the world? And why is
that so as

(25:58):
context.

Pope Francis lifted up laudato si and, and
we've seen, in my estimation,
most of the bishops conferences in the other nations
embrace it to varying degrees and certainly not resist
it in the context of, uh, the
American Catholic community. In some
ways we have to be grounded in the culture

(26:20):
of our nation. The Catholic vote in the
United States is almost mirroring
the American vote. American
views on climate change are almost
mirrored by the Catholic
attitudes. We
understand that Americans
identify foremost

(26:42):
as their top affiliation with
their political affiliation and not their faith
affiliation. I think any faith
tradition in America has this challenge
of the overarching American
culture having undue influence on
our faith traditions.
There are also, if you will, political and

(27:05):
economic considerations that bishops, uh, and
pastors have to consider when
they are looking at the financial health
of their diocese, which may
cause them to not be
affirmative about climate
change and ecological conversion.

(27:25):
Many of them have not been raised to,
uh, or been trained or formed to consider
creation care as fundamental to their
ministry. There are an
array of challenges in the
U.S. catholic Church that they have to manage.
I would note, for example, that though

(27:46):
the Biden administration has been the most
affirmative with regard to climate action,
we, the United States, are the number one fossil fuel
producing nation in the world right now and
are opening up public lands for
drilling and trying to get liquid natural gas out
to the rest of the world as fast as possible.
We are still going full bore with fossil

(28:08):
fuel. Our nation is in many
ways a fossil fuel nation. You take all of
these overarching contexts together
makes it very challenging for our
U.S. catholic Church to embrace fully
an ecological conversion.

I hear in your voice as you share that some of the
frustration that comes from trying to call people
back to their roots in a, uh, context like this that is
so politically charged, where political
identities so deeply shape our own sense
of human and religious identity as well.

Yes, and I don't want to blame
anyone who is placed in this uncomfortable
position. For example, I used to work for the National
Congress of American Indians, who at that time had
over 300 of the 570
plus federally recognized tribes as members.
They come from a diversity and in many ways they

(29:02):
are the Tribal version of the US Conference of Catholic
Bishops, which is 193 dioceses. I thought
that working for NCAI, we would have a very,
very powerful stance on
climate. Actually, it was quite
muted because there are some
tribes who have natural gas,
coal and oil underneath their

(29:24):
lands, which they want to
extract. And I was walking through the halls
of Congress with one of these tribal
leaders. I was lifting up the need for
renewable energy development where possible, as
appropriate on tribal lands, for example, in the Great Plains,
which are considered the Saudi Arabia wind.
And this tribal chairman was trying

(29:47):
to remove the bureaucratic barriers
to tapping the coal and natural
gas on his lands. And it's not for
me to make a moral decision because he had
50 to 75% unemployment on
his reservation for his nation. Where is
he going to find jobs? So there
are economic, social, political

(30:09):
implications, especially economic ones that
he had to consider that bishops have to
consider. It is very difficult for us to
judge. And then when I was advocating for climate
legislation, you can see this on the
national level. The politicians
in Alaska and Texas and
Wyoming and West Virginia, Pick your state

(30:31):
which there is significant fossil fuel production,
you're not likely going to get an enthusiastic
response to climate action. You take that to the
international level. The Saudi Arabias, the
Dubais, the Petro states. Um, one of the Petro states,
by the way, is Norway. You will not find from
them affirmative positions on the
Paris Agreement. Just look at where

(30:54):
the oil is, where the coal and the
natural gas is, and then you can
see where the levels
of commitment to climate action are.
It's a massive, massive challenge on so
many levels.

Part of what you point out is that, at least in some of these
cases, those concerns are quite legitimate.
If you have, for instance, as you were sharing, uh, your community has
a 50 to 75% unemployment rate,
then where are people getting jobs? Is a really
important question. When we, as the
BTS center, were doing research on
congregations and care of the earth,

(31:33):
one of the things that came up really, really
vividly was this understanding of how
important community context was for how you would
engage. We asked congregants,
what are the greatest barriers for your congregation
engaging in issues around climate justice and care of the
earth? Pastors said, our greatest fear
is conflict. What congregation said

(31:55):
is we are old and we are
tired and we are worried about the institutional pressures
of our congregation closing, and we don't have energy for this.
Those concerns are very
legitimate. Part of what I've learned is the
role of religious leaders is you
have to engage people within the context of those
concerns. Acknowledging them as real and then

(32:18):
saying, in what ways can we work through this
context to bring about transformation on this really
pressing issue? Acknowledging
that while I believe that climate is the most urgent
issue facing us as a species right now, we always
have to engage with it, uh, within the context of people's day to
day lived context and experiences.

But to the point of how are
we as faith traditions going to sustain ourselves
into the future, knowing that there's a lot of
disaffiliation and there's aging in our
congregations? We know
that young people view climate
change as one of their top priorities. There is going to
be, if it's not already out, a study by the

(33:02):
Cara Institute at Georgetown, which is going to bear this out,
that I believe the figure is
65% of Catholic youth and young adults rate
climate change as one of their two top priorities into the
future. The way to vivify
or revivify the church is
to help

(33:22):
Catholic youth and young adults, or those who are
stepping away from the faith, live
into their call for climate action
through the lens of their faith. We
know that our faith traditions provide extraordinary
spiritual strength during the most difficult of
times. That's why we've endured for
millennia. And so when you combine the

(33:44):
two, you have the spiritual strength and
then you also have the
benefit of action, because one of the best
antidotes to despair is action. And then
one of the best antidotes to despair is really living into
your faith. We are seeing a rise,
a growth, an explosion, uh, through our
youth and young adult programming, that is

(34:07):
having Catholic high school students and young
adults step into this action
to issue their call from their
faith within the Catholic Church. And
we who have been working in this Catholic climate space have been
telling, uh, our pastors and bishops, if
you want to revivify the church, if you want a wonderful tool

(34:27):
of evangelization, if you want to see these young
folks back into the church, inspired by the church, then you
live into what it means to live into
laudato sea and climate action.
And I would also say, as another
contextual story, that John
Lewis, before he died, was
expressing both admiration for

(34:50):
the passion that the young people are carrying into
movement building across these many sectors.
He was also noting, uh, some concern
about the
activism that he didn't feel was grounded
in, if you will, the greatest commandment. And one of the
things that he said was when he

(35:10):
and his colleagues and his friends
were in the civil rights movement,
during the day they would carry the picket
signs or sit at the lunch counters,
and at night they would talk about the gospel, they would
have the Bible in their hand. And the civil
rights movement, as you know, has a very, very

(35:31):
strong theological, religious, faith
foundation. And he found some of what's going on with the
youth and young adults today as lacking, you know, perhaps
because they haven't been formed or they left the churches, they left
the institutions for reasons that are
justifiable. But what I'm trying to call people
to is that these institutions have a
legitimacy. Everything has a good and bad in

(35:53):
them. If you look at the good and
strive to improve the good within this institution,
then we can lift up, because the atomization of our
society, the bowling alone,
the just say it as I want to say it, is
not going to manifest the institutional
changes that we need. And I believe

(36:14):
that our faith traditions have
that moral authority that if sourced
by youth and young adults returning to the church and
working intergenerationally with the
rest of the church, grounded in 2,000 years
of Catholic tradition, which have the answers
if we look for them and we apply them,

(36:34):
we can move the needle of the moral compass of this
nation.

Mhm M. That is so
powerful. Um, I don't know if you saw me, but
I was nodding, uh, along with you, your silent amen corner
to all of that.

Thank you.

Thank you for our listeners. Perhaps
we have listeners here who are pastors or,
um, congregations or maybe lay members of
congregations. What is one
concrete next step that you might
offer them? Um, to encourage engagement
in those settings.

To be grounded in humility,
to have conversations
outdoors, to
start first with a prayer and
then a minimum of five minutes of
silence outdoors,
to listen and

(37:31):
feel the glory of God's creation through all
of your senses, then coming into your
soul and then stepping into a
conversation where you're seeking
that of God and everyone.

Thank you. And thank you for this conversation that we've had
together. I deeply appreciate the
ways that you have worked and
reflected so deeply upon what it means
for your tradition, for the Roman Catholic
tradition to engage transformationally with this,
especially honoring the context that we're in, and that there

(38:07):
is, um, other ground for us to do this
work besides just political frameworks that we actually do
have, moral,
theological frameworks
grounding from which we could do this work as well, that can help
transcend some of these, what often feel
like impassable binaries that are so much a part of
our culture. And that has been a gift to me and I know it will be a gift to

(38:30):
a lot of our listeners.

Well, thank you, Ben. It's been a pleasure having this conversation with
you.

Ben, thanks so much for that conversation you
had with Jose and for sharing it with me
and our listeners.
One of the things that stood out to me
was the way in which
context matters so much when
we're talking with people about climate
change. And it stood out to me the way

(38:58):
in which Jose was sharing about
the political divisions
that are present in our American context
and how very challenging
those divisions can make it
to have the conversation.
I think the courage

(39:19):
that Jose spoke about,
um, I just felt that really deeply in
terms of when we're not sure
how people are going to respond.
That is real climate courage, a topic
that we've been exploring quite a bit
this season, really how to step into

(39:40):
that courage and perhaps risk
something even when you don't know what the
response is going to be.

Yeah. And, uh, you know, as you say that, I'm reminded
that perhaps this is the reason why I, and I think probably
so many of us fall back on the
scripts that we're given. It's a way
to avoid real
reciprocal encounter. I think about
this work a lot where
leaders in faith communities often really struggle with how

(40:09):
to talk about climate. And I think
part of it is oftentimes they inherit scripts
and framings that they feel like would be a good thing to say, but
they're not actually sure whether they'll honor,
um, the people who, who they're working and sharing life
with. And I think the thing when we get off those scripts
and have person to person encounters, um,

(40:29):
it's not only a matter of, well, I don't know whether this is gonna convince
someone else, but someone else might convince us of something
as well. And this is something I really appreciated
in Jose's conversation with me is like,
he talked about, um, what am I supposed to say to the tribal
leader who has 85, 90%
unemployment about not developing these
resources, their land? There's a moment

(40:52):
that knocks us off our scripts and forces us
into encounter in a way that is
both very difficult but is ultimately really,
really productive.

Yeah. Um, I've been
engaging with Katherine Hayhoe's book, Saving
Us recently, and we were
privileged to do an event with her in the
spring. She has a focus of
talking about climate change. It's a super
popular TED talk that Katherine has led,
and in many ways it is a first step. But what

(41:25):
she's pointing out is that so many of us are
not taking that first step of
talking about climate change with the people who we
care the most about, the people who we spend
our lives with. And her
Huge advice is to talk
about the things that we love.
Not to share data

(41:48):
or some policy
concern, but to attend
to people's identities and to
tap into the things that they, that
they love because of those identities
and start to explore the ways in which
climate change, um, could

(42:08):
impact those and envision
solutions that we want for our world,
solutions that aren't about denying
those factors of identity.
And of course, the story Jose shared about
Catherine walking into a Rotary
Club and seeing, oh, here's the

(42:29):
identity, it's on the wall in five
points or whatever it was, and then finding
the way to make those five points all
about climate change.
I wonder how to do that in my.
Yeah, with my aunts and uncles and with
my neighbors,

(42:50):
it still feels like a huge challenge to me, even
though it sometimes sounds like just,
just talk about it, you know, the, just part of that. The
very first step.

Yeah, yeah. As, uh, you were sharing, I was
immediately thinking back to the island where I lived that I've
talked about a lot on, um, this podcast in
conversation with you. In the
winter, uh, 2022 to 2023, we
had three huge storms that
just did horrible damage to a lot of the
beloved beaches on the island. The stone pier

(43:22):
where we catch the ferry was underwater. Like boats were
canceled for the first time ever, um, that people can
remember because of flooding. And I remember
after I forget if it was the second or the third storm, I went outside
to walk my dog. And uh, the first three
conversations I had with people I met on the streets were all about
climate and all about these beaches. And have you seen the

(43:43):
erosion? And what about the house that was
on one of the beaches? Like on it? It was grandfathered there. They
could only build it there. That's been washed off its pilings for
the second year. And, and are they going to be able to continue to rebuild
that? And uh, it's conversations like that
that remind me that actually there are a lot of ends
to the climate conversation. You don't have to lead

(44:03):
with climate to get there. And I think this is so important
because I know I internalized this narrative for a long
time that part of what it meant to be a good
person, especially when it came to issues of
social concern, was I had to go in and say the
hard thing and fight it out. You know, like the, it's
almost like the in person version of the social media flame

(44:24):
war. You know, the, when the comment sections on someone's post
explodes, like that's what it meant to be really doing the
work. But there are a Lot of ways to get into
this conversation. And I also think there are a lot of ways
to talk about climate without talking about climate.
So if the word climate change makes the people
in your life run to the exit, start by talking
about place.

Mhm.

Especially if there's a history and roots there. Talk about
why do you love this place? Why do you want to
continue to see it thrive? What changes have you
seen? And that's a way to get into conversations
about care of place and land and people that
we've been talking about during this season without ever
having to say the words climate change. And
there are so many different ways we can do this. It's about

(45:08):
people's encounter with the natural
world. Some of the greatest climate change deniers
in my life love to fish, love to hunt, love
to camp, love to garden.
There's a place that we can find common ground,
even if the things they post on Facebook just make my hair
stand at end. Um,
theological context, which Jose talks

(45:31):
about so well in this piece, is another way to
bypass some of these places where our conversations get
stuck. And I increasingly find myself
just less interested in having the have you heard about climate
change and the bad impact it's going to have on the world
Conversation, and more interested in
meeting people where they're at and forming
relationships and saying, how can I help encourage and

(45:52):
raise up in them the virtues that we will need in
a climate changed world? Regardless at this moment, whether
they believe in climate change or not,
there are.

Going to be very few places that, that
don't have specific examples
of the ways in which climate change is
challenging their innocence. And
so
I think, yes, sometimes avoiding those
words is perhaps the way to go.

(46:22):
And other days, I think,
you know what, maybe now is the time
to start making some of these
connections. And then how do
I hold that person
in the grief over the loss of innocence?
That's a question that I wonder about.

(46:43):
And I imagine many of our
preachers and spiritual leaders that the BTS
center does programming with, as you say,
they want to honor the people
that they're working with. We're trained to do
that as spiritual leaders. Um,
and one of the things we're going to grapple with is people's loss of
innocence.

Yeah, I mean, I've been joking, like, I don't have
to convince anyone that climate change is real.
The weather will do
that for us. Um, I wonder if in some ways
the shift or the place of the loss of
innocence as you speak of is people who thought that
climate change was a bad thing. That was going to happen to other

(47:26):
people in another time.

Right.

What can we offer, um, our community
that can help them in a way that is deep,
like it goes down deep to where the grief and pain
is. Begin to memorialize
and celebrate and say goodbye
to that which was, which won't be coming
back.

The quote that Jose
shared in your conversation
about civil rights
activists, um, engaging with
Bibles in their hands
was so powerful
and made me start
imagining what climate

(48:11):
actions with Bibles in hands
could look like. We're engaging
in a book study right now on a book called
Singing the Psalms With My Son,
Praying and Parenting for a Healed
Planet that was written by Wilson
Dickinson. Wilson says
we need to turn back to the Psalms to know

(48:33):
how to hold the broad expanse
of emotion that is
present as we encounter these realities.
As there's great joy, as
there's significant loss, as
there is guilt and rage.
We're actually not alone. We

(48:56):
actually have resources from
within our scriptures. Wilson points
specifically to the Psalms. There's a
reason these scriptures have been passed down to
us, and it is because they
respond to the, the drama of
real transformation

(49:16):
and maybe the time that those
Bibles in the hands of people engaging in
climate action, that is what's grounding them.
That is the vision, that is the emotional
container that they can turn to
as they engage.

Mhm.

As someone who's worked in interfaith understanding work, I
actually feel like you're really well positioned to answer this question, which
is it's great to have these resources, but we
do live in a context where there's still this history
of Christian supremacy and the ways that the
Christian tradition was used
coercively as a tool of
imperialization and colonization. So what does it

(49:56):
mean to offer gifts and
resources out of your context
in ways that are gracious but not
coercive?

I've been in so many interfaith
conversations where I feel like the first thing I
want to do is tell them that sort of Christian I'm
not.

Yeah.

I'm like, okay, well, let me school you on the
ways. I'm not all the things you think I am.
But I've realized that is really not
what people are interested in. They're actually really not interested
in what I'm not. They're actually really interested
in what motivates me and what moves me.
It's just that good skill of like, eye

(50:38):
language, just using eye language
around, around making meaning. It
doesn't have to be true for someone else.
If you're authentic about what's moving to
you it might produce some intrigue
and of course to then turn the
conversation to someone else and ask

(50:58):
what's motivating to them? Where do they
find inspiration to live in
the ways they do? Mhm. So
finding out what's motivating them is the other way
to make sure you're being gracious that it's not
sharing something because I think it's good for you. I'm sharing it
because it's good for me and I want to know what's good for you.

(51:18):
Also.

Thank you for making those connections. I really appreciate
that.

Thank you for what you shared with Jose,
Ben, and then the conversation that we've
had just now. After hearing
Jose's rich insights and the
conversation he inspired, our listeners
may be wondering what they can do to address climate
change or enhance the work they're already

(51:44):
doing.

One suggestion I have for all of you who are listening is
to contribute regularly to a climate change organization
that aligns with your values and passion.
While large one time contributions benefit
nonprofit organizations, monthly donations
from contributors are crucial for building organizational
stability and and I bet many of you have climate

(52:05):
organizations working in your community, in
your watershed that could definitely need your
help right.

Now if you're looking for inspiration of
where to give, Bentley University has
compiled a list of international, national
and regional climate justice
organizations. We'll share that in our show
notes. Two organizations I
support through membership and regular donations
are, uh, the Audubon Society and my local

(52:34):
land Trust in Scarborough, Maine.
My 10 year old has watched me make those
philanthropic decisions, so he recently
decided to donate his lemonade stand profits
to the center for Wildlife in Cape Nedic,
Maine. A, uh, local business heard about my
kids giving and decided to match his

(52:54):
gift. I tell this story because in
my experience, philanthropy leads to
more philanthropy. The very best kind
of slippery slope I could imagine.

That's amazing. I'll also add
Blessed Tomorrow offers a directory of faith based
organizations involved in climate change initiatives
categorized by state and you can find a link to those
in our Show Notes as well.

We include links to these lists in our Show Notes
on Climate Changed podcast
to share other potential steps you can take. One
of our producers, Anna Barron, is here.

>> Anna Barron (53:30):
Thank you Nicole.
This episode inspired me to put together a couple
more invitations for you. First, I
invite you to take part in Lectio Terra,
which is a spiritual practice of reading scripture
and engaging with the natural world and the non
human community. You can choose to do this
practice individually or you could facilitate

(53:52):
a small group. For helpful guidance, visit
the BTS Center's website
thebtscenter.org Go to
the Resources tab and click on the Leadership
Commons button. If you scroll down you will
see a link to a page called Guides to
Lectioterra. There you will find
documents which are created by our very own

(54:13):
Ben Yoshua Davis. They direct you to engage
in lectiotera. Afterward, take a moment and
reflect on how this process went and and consider writing
a journal entry with your thoughts on the experience.
I also encourage you to visit the Catholic
Climate Covenants website, which is the organization
that Jose was a part of. You can find

(54:34):
it@ah,
catholicclimatecovenant.org as a first
step, consider clicking the Join Us button
on the homepage to stay up to date with news,
resources and ways to take action. Once
again, that's
catholicclimatecovenant.org we will
also put the link to this website in our show
Notes as always, if you do

(54:57):
any of these action steps, please feel free to share them
with this episode on your social media so that some of your
friends might be inspired to do the same. There is
no pressure to do all or any of these
next steps. We just want these to be a resource for
you as you figure out ways to engage in this huge
and overwhelming topic. Thanks Ben,

(55:17):
Nicole and Jose for this reflective and
insightful episode.

Thank you.
Anna thank you so much for joining us
today for this episode of the Climate Changed Podcast.
This is the penultimate episode of Season three.

Next month you will hear a lively conversation I had
with writer Elizabeth Rush. Liz
is acclaimed for her book
Dispatches from the American Shore
and the Quickening. Her writing combines
meticulous research with personal
reflection, offering readers a compelling
narrative on the front lines of climate change.

(55:53):
She's been published in Orion Magazine,
the New York Times, the Atlantic, and
National Geographic. I spoke with Liz about
her newest book, which I really enjoyed,
the Creation and Community at the
Ends of the Earth. The book documents her voyage to
Antarctica, capturing the awe inspiring

(56:13):
and everyday moments of this groundbreaking
expedition. She also explores the
profound question of what it means to bring a
child into a world undergoing radical
environmental change. As
parents, ourselves, Ben and I will consider the
questions, conundrums and perspectives
Liz raises. We will then open up the

(56:34):
conversation to include a new first time
mother, Sophia Cheng from
withmanyroots.com in the UK.

Nicole it is hard to believe this season is almost over
and it is nearly time to begin producing Season
four. So friends, we would love to hear
your thoughts about themes, topics and guests
you would like us to consider. For Season four.

You can text us or leave a voice message at
207-200-6986
plus 1. If you're calling from outside the USA,
that number again is
207-200-6986.
You can also email us at
podcasthebtscenter.org.

We invite you to follow the BTS center on Twitter,
Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. Visit our
website climatechangedpodcast.org
to see our full show notes and a full transcript of this
episode.

Oh, and we have a discussion guide for this
episode. In fact, we have a discussion
guide for all of our episodes starting with
season one. Thank you for sharing our
show with your friends, family and colleagues in
conversation. It is through the word of mouth that our
podcast is growing.

The Climate Change Podcast is produced by Peterson
Toscano and Erna Barron and is a project of the
BTS center in beautiful Portland, Maine.

At the BTS center we have regular online
and in person programs. We include book
studies, speaker events and online lament
rituals. We have a growing collection of
resources including the Leadership Commons and
Earthbound Practices. We collaborate on
different initiatives including Climate Conscious
Chaplaincy, Eco Preacher and the Research

(58:21):
Collaborative. Learn
more@thebtscenter.org
Bye everyone. Thanks for listening today. Grace
and Peace.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Climate Change, American Catholics, and Laudato Si with Jose Aguto