May 20, 2025 • 30 mins
In this thoughtful second interim episode, host Jessica David talks deeply and candidly with The BTS Center team members Ben Yosua-Davis and Madeline Bugeau-Heartt about hope's complex and nuanced nature in our climate-changed world. They explore what it means to hold hope amidst uncertainty, loss, and the ongoing climate crisis.
Meet the Host and the Guests:
Jessica David is a Master of Divinity candidate at Harvard Divinity School, a community consultant, and an advocate for local investment and social change.
Ben Yosua-Davis is the Director of Applied Research at The BTS Center, shaping their research agenda to support climate-informed spiritual leadership. Ben previously founded innovative spiritual communities and is passionate about building communities and promoting climate resilience.
Madeline Bugeau-Heartt serves as a Program Associate at The BTS Center. With a background in experimental theater and filmmaking, Madeline brings creative imagination and community organizing expertise to exploring how we navigate a radically changing world.
Main Conversation and Themes:
1. Redefining Hope Beyond Quick SolutionsGuests discuss shifting perspectives away from oversimplified solutions towards a deeper understanding of hope.
Ben Yosua-Davis challenges traditional views:
"If by hope you mean am I hopeful that there is a technological or political solution that will fix climate change... the answer is no. But do I believe life can be full of meaning, beauty, and joy regardless? Absolutely."
Madeline Bugeau-Heartt expands the concept:
"Hope isn't an antidote to despair... but I am hopeful that the mystery of the day, spontaneous beauty, and love between people can always be found."
2. Hospicing Endings, Midwifing BeginningsBen and Madeline explore embracing change through metaphors of hospice and midwifery, recognizing endings and nurturing new beginnings.
Madeline Bugeau-Heartt articulates the dual practice:
"What are we choosing to hospice, and what are we choosing to midwife into being?... It's about being part of what the world is already doing."
Ben Yosua-Davis reflects on communal acceptance:
"When people hit the point [of hospice], there's peace and joy that leads to hope—focusing on living, enjoying, appreciating those closest to us."
3. Hope as a Communal PracticeThe conversation emphasizes hope as fundamentally collective and relational.
Ben Yosua-Davis emphasizes community:
"I don't think you can practice hope individually... humans were not built to be hopeful without community."
Madeline Bugeau-Heartt underscores collective action:
"In community, hope gains muscle… I hope for different things in collective than when I'm by myself, longing for things way beyond myself."
Additional Resources:
- The BTS Center's Research Collaborative – Exploring how faith communities can authentically respond to the climate crisis through grounded, applied research.
- Reports From the Spiritual Frontier – Ben’s podcast chronicling new forms of spiritual community and innovative leadership.
Join the Conversation:
Where do you fall on the hope spectrum? What practices do you use to cultivate hope—or maybe you don't?
Share your reflections via email at podcast@thebtscenter.org or leave a voicemail at 207-200-6986.
Climate Changed Podcast is a project of The BTS Center in Portland, Maine. Produced by Peterson Toscano. Music comes from EpidemicSound.com. Closing song: Home by Ludlow. Visit climatechangedpodcast.org for more episodes of the Climate Changed podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Jessica David (00:04):
What does it mean to be hopeful in this world right
now? How do we change hearts and behaviors,
starting with mine? And how do I talk about climate
catastrophe at my next social gathering without scaring people
away?
I'm Jessica David, a Harvard Divinity School
student. I'm an intern at the BTS center,
(00:25):
which basically means I ask a lot of questions. I'm really
curious about the BTS Center's mission to cultivate
spiritual leadership for a climate changed
world because it seems so worthy and
necessary. So I asked a huge question.
Can I take over the podcast for a few months to learn more
about what you do here?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:43):
And.
>> Jessica David (00:44):
Well, here we are.
Welcome to the Climate Change Podcast behind the Scenes
edition with me, Jessica David.
Listeners, I have a confession. I have been
looking forward to diving into today's topic for a
(01:05):
long time. As a self
proclaimed possibility oriented
pessimist, hope is,
well, complicated to me, which is why
I'm so excited to be here today with two
members of the BTS Center's team.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (01:22):
Hi, everyone. I'm Ben Yoshua Davis, the BTS
Center's Director of Applied Research and also
the regular co host of this podcast. I'm also
an Islander, a nascent homesteader, and a father of
three young children.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (01:36):
And I'm Madeline Bugeau Hart. I'm the program
associate at the BTS center. And beyond these
walls, I'm also a theater maker as well as a community
organizer.
>> Jessica David (01:49):
Welcome, Madeline and Ben. I'm so happy to be here
with you today.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (01:53):
Yeah, uh, it's great to be here with you, Jessica.
>> Jessica David (01:56):
So we're talking about a topic that feels
particularly perilous when it comes to a
spiritual approach to climate change, and that is
hope. So, generally speaking, before we
get into how this relates to the BTS Center's
work, Ben and Madeline, do you
consider yourself hopeful people?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (02:15):
Yes, but I'm not sure
in the way that everyone thinks or what
you'd necessarily expect. And I'm sure we'll get into
that. I'm not hopeful, for example, that life
as we know it is going to continue. And I also
don't believe that hope is an antidote to
despair as it's so often presented.
(02:35):
Um, but I am hopeful that the
mystery of the day and the spontaneous
beauty of the moment and the love between people
can always be found.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (02:49):
So, Madeline, I love your response. Yes,
uh, um, yes
and yes. And, um,
yeah, I find myself in a very similar
place. If by hope you mean am I
hopeful that there is a technological
or political solution that will fix
climate change, which is so Often, the language that I
(03:12):
encounter in these spaces, the answer is no. I am not
hopeful at all. But if you
talk about, do I believe that life, regardless
what happens, can be full of meaning and beauty
and joy, and that there are ways actually to make
that the guiding framework of my life, the
answer is yes, absolutely. I'm very hopeful. And, uh,
(03:32):
when people ask me this question, as they have in other
settings, I often find I have to answer just like this. Where I
have to go, yes. And then I have to define what
hope means to me, because our
cultural definitions of hope are often very
unclear and often extremely contested.
>> Jessica David (03:50):
Okay, so
it's complicated.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (03:55):
Yes.
>> Jessica David (03:57):
You are not decomplicating it for me.
Not that I expected you to.
So let's talk about climate change. When
it comes to climate change, do you have
hope? Because I've got to say, when I read the
data, the science, the news, I do not feel
hopeful at all. Should I be?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (04:17):
I really like what Ben said
about reorienting hope
in a way that isn't like, solar panels are going to save us.
And in almost every single conversation about
climate that I have beyond the walls of the BTS center,
the pattern goes as such. Like, doom, clothes,
gloom. It's not good. But, like, we're hopeful.
That honestly, always a conversation
(04:40):
ender. And so in a climate change
capacity, where I find hope is. And this is like, kind of a
far reach, but maybe we can back ourselves up, um,
from this is de centering. Is in
de centering humanity. What?
Whoa. I know I said it. It's so taboo.
But Ben pointed to this. I'm going there. I'm going
(05:00):
there. Coming in hot. Ben said this, like,
life will continue. That hope of life
continuing. And so when I de center this narrative
of, like, humans must prevail,
I get a lot more hopeful that something beyond
humanity and hopefully including humanity, I love our
species, like, let's go. Is emerging and
wanting to be born.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (05:22):
So, Madeline, this reminds me of a conversation that the two
of us had on my porch on the
island. I don't know if you remember this. You came out a couple
summers ago and had lunch with my family, and then we sat and
we're like, okay, let's talk about the scary
stuff. Uh, what do we think about hope and
climate and collapse and all these things.
(05:43):
One of the things that came for me out of the conversation is
this idea, this narrative that you were just talking about
that, you know, things are really bad. But
there's like, this new solar panel that's going to come out and Save
us all this. There's always another rabbit to be pulled out of the
hat metaphor that I find often used in
modern climate discourse. There are some things that are good about
(06:03):
this because, like, solar panels are important. In about six weeks,
we're getting solar panels on our house because we
are concerned about how we can show up to this present
moment. But one thing that this mindset can't
do is it can't face problems that can't be solved.
So when we face something like climate, which is
a problem that is geologic in
(06:24):
scale, so big it almost defies
comprehension. If we can't hope in
solar panels, it often seems like the. The other
option is to go towards nihilism and
despair. That is not
awesome. That is not helpful for anyone. When I come
back to hope, I think about not what do
I think the outcome is going to be, because that's connecting
(06:46):
my identity to power, something that white folk like
myself like to do a lot. Like, my hope is connected
with my agency to change the world. And rather I try to
connect it back to meaning. To say, even if all this
stuff goes, quote, badly, can I
still understand that my life has meaning?
That's something that is not just an intellectual conviction, but for
(07:07):
me at least, it's a practice that I try to cultivate on
a daily basis.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (07:12):
I would love to jump in. Dear listener, you're
feeling how I felt a couple years ago when I
visited Ben on the island. As he was alluding to, I thought I
was, like, visiting the Collapse Wizard.
I was like, I have some questions for thee.
(07:32):
And yes, did come away feeling
both overwhelmed, but also really validated that we were
actually having the conversation
that was steeped and based in truth and meaning.
So often hope is placed temporarily in the
future. Um, where I do want
to get into longing, because I think that's an important ingredient
(07:53):
for me in this soup, um, of hope.
Temporally, hope lives in the present for me as well.
And I had a dear professor at the Harvard Divinity School,
where Jessica is now, who told this story
of being a hospital chaplain,
uh, and watching patient after
patient throughout his term there get diagnosed with
terminal illnesses. And he said, what was so interesting about
(08:16):
it for me, and he was talking specifically about hope, was that
despite the. The outcome being the outcome, the
unavoidable outcome of a terminal illness,
it's not like people stopped choosing
the next right thing, the next act of
meaning. And that's just what I hear Ben saying, too. And I
couldn't agree more of, like, it's a present moment. It's a
practice. It's a choosing the next right thing in order
(08:38):
to bring more abundant meaning into this
world.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (08:44):
The very practical structures that undergird our lives
feel like they are slipping out of our grasp.
And we keep trying new and often more
extreme interventions, which is often kind of the
dialogue that happens with those who are in hospice. Like, at what point
do we say kind of enough is enough?
Oftentimes my experience was when people hit the point, they were like,
okay, I'm ready for hospice. There was this sense of
(09:06):
peace and release and joy
that actually led to hope because people said, now
that I've given up on the idea that I have to keep surviving,
I can actually focus on living,
enjoying, and appreciating those people who are
closest and most important to me. I can engage in
grief so that my goodbye can be one that is
peaceful and actually hopeful and generative
(09:29):
for the people who are saying goodbye to me as well.
Vaclav Havel says hope is not the conviction that
something will turn out well, but the certainty that
something is worth doing no matter how it turns
out.
>> Jessica David (09:41):
Hmm. I love that quote so much, Ben.
I actually, I have a small business.
I do consulting, and the name of my
business, which I took from a Seamus Heaney quote, very
similar, um, is good worth working for.
The quote is that hope is the conviction that there is
good worth working for. So big fan of
(10:01):
that. I have to say, despite the collapse
wizard being part of this conversation,
I and Madeline bringing doom in within the first
few minutes. I actually think this is really reassuring. I
react very negatively to this
notion that it's all going to be okay. And I think
part of the problem in our culture is
(10:22):
that that's our. That's our
standard reaction to everything. So when someone gets sick,
you know, they're expected to fight it. And, uh, we
don't really know what. How to respond when
things may actually not be
okay. But at the same
time, I don't really know what to do with my
pessimism. Like Ben said, it's a really
(10:44):
easy slide for me from reality to
hopelessness to apathy to nihilism.
What do I do with that? How do I prevent that slide.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (10:55):
Something that Ben just
lifted that I want to all, like, do a, uh, my. Like,
yes and. Or yes. But that might speak to this
pessimism, Jessica, because I've certainly. And I
still do have flows and ebbs in
pessimism as well. And despair. Despair,
like pessimism on a light day.
Um, this word of hospicing
(11:17):
for me Is like a closing
indicates a kind of closing or a death or
an ending too. But I also
feel like, with conviction that something
else is getting born. I don't know what that
is. I only get glimmers of it.
I think whatever it is will be unlike anything
we have ever seen. So yes, this hospicing, as we were
(11:39):
saying to life as we know it, which is frightening and there's
a lot of grief to be had as well. But
rather than. And you're pointing to when people say, oh, it's all gonna be
fine, that used to be inadequate
for me because it felt like it wasn't nuanced
enough, but now it's almost like too boring
for me.
>> Jessica David (11:58):
Hmm.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (11:59):
I'm like, ah, uh, like, yeah, it just doesn't get me
there because I also think that there's like we're on
precipice.
This question of hope lifts for me the question of what are we
choosing to hospice and what are
we choosing to midwife into being
one more layer onto it. Sorry, I can't help myself.
That sort of implies some kind of control
(12:20):
and this like, outcome orientedness. So
rather like what parts of the hospicing that's
already happening do we want to partake in and uh, what
parts of the midwifing that the world is already
doing beyond our, our control do we want
to partake in and be a participant in? It feels
strange, it feels necessarily mysterious to
me, but that starts to like,
(12:43):
sweeten up any despair I might
have. I don't know if I'll even be there to see that, but
it's, it sweetens the pessimism, it sweetens the despair
with a, with a, with a, a whiff of mystery for
me.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (12:55):
I love that actually. It makes me think back to some of
the research we've been doing with
leaders and congregations and members of congregations who
are asking what, uh, is our church's
calling for community and watershed in a climate changed
world? And one of the shifts that we notice happens from the
beginning to the end of our programming. In the beginning of our programming,
(13:15):
people tend to talk in
grandiose, abstract terms. We need to go
out and solve climate change. Like solve
climate change is a thing people say.
>> Jessica David (13:26):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (13:26):
Even at a local level, people will list 10, 12,
like, these are the things we're going to do to change our community.
Christina Lazardi Hajby, who's one of our research advisors who
is looking at some of this stuff with us, was pointing out, well,
that's actually also a function of whiteness One
of the conditions of whiteness and privilege is you think you can do your way out
of a crisis. You move towards things that are universal
(13:47):
rather than place based, that are abstract rather than
relational. One of the things that we notice
happens in a lot of our programming, when people come out the other
side, they're actually talking in
terms that are often humble, where
oftentimes when they respond to these questions, at the end they'll be like,
well, I don't know, I just want to talk about how I'm going to show up.
Or they'll talk about the people or the specific organizations
(14:09):
that they work with. Taking
care of our chickens is an act of hope. Hosting
potlucks at our house so people who are feeling
isolated and despairing can just be together and eat
food is an act of hope.
Preventing myself from sliding into that place of
(14:29):
resigned despair is not actually about some sort of
grand cognitive shift, though those have happened for
me. But it's about the daily practices I try
to engage in that pull myself out of my own
head and pull myself back into the world and
back into living relationship with the
people and the beings that are not human
(14:49):
that I need to be engaged with in this current moment.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (14:55):
Ben, I just love what you said about this, right.
Sizing perspective of like, we're gonna
solve climate change to like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna
host a potluck at my house. I had in my climate
organizing circle, I have a friend who's doing
protest singing. That's like their thing that they're doing. It's
so beautiful. They go every Saturday. And he said to me recently,
he said, you know, we're all working on our little
(15:17):
tile. 50 years from now, we're going to
look back and see the mosaic that it's made
and realize that we were part of a part
of. And that was so beautiful to me. And I think
to your point, what I find hopeful is being
a part of, you said, living, uh,
relationships. Being in these
community organizing circles and watching and
(15:40):
being a part of people practicing into their longing.
Like we're all longing for this better
world to emerge. Or rather like a world in which it is
easier to love, I think is the language I often use. And
that in and of itself feels so hopeful.
>> Jessica David (15:54):
Yeah, I'm thinking, I
don't know how the listeners would respond to this, but when you use the
word mystery, for me, there was a bit of a shift there,
because thinking about something as
the mystery that it is allows that humility that
Ben was talking about. And it Allows me to
engage in a very different way than when I'm looking for
(16:14):
solutions. I love hearing
Ben talk about the. Is it the ministry of the
potluck? The ministry of the potluck. I love
it. I love it. I'm also bringing that back
into my life. So thank you for that.
Here's a question for you. Is hope
a noun? Is it a verb? Is it an
adjective? What is it?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (16:36):
I think it's a verb. Ben, do you think it's a verb?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (16:40):
Goodness. Um, you're asking me about grammar at this time in the
morning?
I don't think, Jessica, your question is probably primarily about
grammar.
>> Jessica David (16:50):
Not at all.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (16:52):
I think about hope either as a practice
or as a living
virtue which we cultivate. Like we might
cultivate a seedling, um, as we're ready for
spring to come.
>> Jessica David (17:04):
A living virtue which we cultivate.
Ooh, I like that.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (17:09):
Chef's kiss. I love that. That's
beautiful.
>> Jessica David (17:12):
Does hope look different if you practice it
individually versus in community?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (17:18):
Yeah. Ben?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (17:20):
Yeah, I. I don't think you can practice hope individually.
>> Jessica David (17:23):
Ooh, same.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (17:26):
This is part of our modern Western individualism.
We think of these virtues in these practices. We atomize
them down to the level of self, because those are our
cultural biases. But I find it
really hard to kind of ramp myself up
into a head trip of sufficient power to maintain hope
when I'm not in relationship with others.
(17:47):
This is one of the big shifts, Madeline, coming back
to what you were talking about. Paying attention to what's being birthed or
midwifed is we're again realizing we can't be
human without other beings,
both the human and the other than human. And I
don't think we can be hopeful unless we're in
community. The humans were not
built to be hopeful without
(18:09):
community, because sometimes even during really difficult
moments, one of the ways you can tell that a community is healthy
is how. How good the funerals are.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (18:17):
Wow.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (18:18):
I live on an island with incredible funerals
and have watched this community bear
together through unimaginable tragedies.
I mean, just horrible, horrible things that have happened to beloved
members of the community. The community is doing
fine. And the reason is they all show up together.
That's like 90% of what's going on as they show up
(18:38):
together. And for me, that's what hope is
about as well. When we are together,
that makes me more hopeful.
>> Jessica David (18:46):
Mhm. Lovely.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (18:47):
Um, I would second that. I think anything
done in communion
and in community, hope is starting to
feel like an act of communion for me throughout this Conversation
just gains muscle.
I think of myself when I'm like, uh. And then in
community, though, like, there's an amplification, and it's
(19:07):
not like we're trying to be better or more. Or get more
productivity involved, but there is sort of a. A
muscle that comes in when we're doing things
necessarily together. I would
add, I hope for different things when
I'm in the collective than when I'm
by myself. So, like, Madeline hopes for true love
and like Madeline hopes for, like, her car. Not to
(19:29):
break down. The list
goes on. But when I'm in a collective, I'm
longing and I'm hoping for different things
that are way beyond that. Absolutely include
me and have nothing to do with me at the same time. And that
feels.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (19:45):
I love that.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (19:45):
Do you like it, Ben?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (19:46):
I love that. I love true love and a functioning car.
Yeah, well, you know, those are good things. I hope for both true
love and a functioning car, having ridden in your pickup
truck.
>> Jessica David (19:57):
Until we have no more cars.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (19:59):
Until we have no more cars. Um, but
like, the idea that actually hope is not something
we hold individually, but shaped collectively.
And so actually, we together, collectively
shape the boundaries and the imagination of our hope, which means
it brings into our field of view things that
we might not otherwise be hoping for.
>> Jessica David (20:20):
I really made this connection between longing and
hope for me right there, Madeline, that I was. I was struggling
with in the beginning of this conversation, but now thinking
about longing as how hope,
one of the ways hope can shows up in community
and in relationship. We could talk about
this for a long time. We do talk about this a lot at the
BTS Center.
(20:42):
But I have to come to my last question,
which is, not surprisingly, a
complicated one. But I started today talking about how I
struggle with hope. And I also recognize with
humility that I am not
experiencing the worst impacts of climate change.
I am not in a position
(21:02):
where it is impacting me directly. It's very
much an emotional exercise, an intellectual
exercise. But there are so many people who are dealing
directly with climate disasters,
oppression, poverty, health, the things
that are intertwined with climate.
What would you say to them about hope?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (21:24):
I have a strong response to this question. It's such a
good question. Um, and I think I want to
hearken back to what I mentioned earlier in the conversation.
Whereas hope is usually lifted as an
antidote, like a. It's almost like
using. Like offering Tylenol and
someone's leg is falling off, and it's like, uh, this
doesn't. And I don't think I would talk
(21:47):
I'm gonna. I don't know if this is the answer you want, Jessica, but I
don't think it would be appropriate for me to offer
any comments about hope, certainly not
antidotally. And the people I've known who have
suffered a great deal. It's never the
time for me to be like, oh, but here's a
little nugget of hope for you. It's about listening
and listening and maybe, maybe
(22:08):
asking them. But even that feels like a
step too far. Just like I don't. Like I had a
family member go through
their own personal tragedy this past year. I wasn't talking
about God with them. Wasn't talking about, well,
God has a plan. No, no, no, no. I might think that for
myself, but I think this question is so
important. And I also,
(22:31):
yeah, I think listening is my answer, and not
talking about hope feels like the right
response in terms of your question.
Ben, I'm curious what you think about that.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (22:40):
So there are two things that come to mind. And the first thing I want to say, I, uh, think
to you, Jessica, and also maybe to many of our
listeners who struggle with the well, I'm in a position of privilege.
So do I have a right to feel
anxious? Do I have a right to feel like I'm suffering? And
I think this is a reminder we are not in the Suffering
Olympics. M. We are not ranking each
(23:00):
other's sufferings. We're not in a competition.
And so the first thing to say is, if you
are feeling these deep feelings of anxiety and
despair, those are legitimate and have
their own inner integrity and do not need to be compared to
anyone else's. There
are ways that this shuffering gets shaped differently depending
on our social and cultural context. And it
(23:23):
is okay, even in a privileged context like ours,
to feel anxiety and depression
and despair and to say those things are real
without having to compare them and find them wanting to anyone
else. The second thing I'll say is this. My
experience is that oftentimes I learn
the most about hope from people who are in positions of
intense poverty, poor health,
(23:46):
oppression, and suffering.
My experience is they are the people who have taught me the
most about hope. So oftentimes
I find when I come into those moments, I would just want to
ask them. In the face of such suffering,
if it was me, my whole meaning making systems would have completely broken
down. And my experiences, and this was often my
(24:06):
experience when I had friends who were refugees
seeking asylum in this country, is they were able to
hold together hope and grief,
joy and pain in a way that I
didn't even have in my field of reference. So
oftentimes with the people you're talking about, Jessica,
I want to sit at their feet and say, teach me
about hope. Because oftentimes I find they are holding
(24:28):
it in a way that, um, I am not yet
capable of doing.
>> Jessica David (24:32):
Yes. And it's so. I find it so helpful
to acknowledge that hope can exist. It can
coexist with these other things, with despair,
with suffering, um, with grief,
with other emotions. And that sometimes, you
know, we don't have to force ourselves into it, which is another
thing. I think that often in society,
(24:53):
we're expected to be hopeful. Yeah.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (24:55):
It's a part of, um. I love that, Jessica. It's a part
of this wild stew that we're all
stewing in together. That is life at this moment. This
is a serious life.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (25:05):
Well, and in fact, all our ancient religious traditions tell us
that hope comes from suffering,
not in spite of suffering, not alongside
suffering, but hope actually comes
from suffering. And that's a
reframing I am still getting my head around.
>> Jessica David (25:23):
Indeed. Yeah.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (25:24):
A cliffhanger. Ben leaving a cliffhanger.
Cliffhanger.
>> Jessica David (25:32):
Well, we have to end it there. Even though I don't really want
to. I want to keep going.
M. Thank you so much, Madeline and Ben,
for this really important
conversation, which was just as
unhinged as I expected it to be. So
thank you.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (25:49):
There's more where that came from.
>> Jessica David (25:51):
No, thank you for bringing us through it.
So, listeners, it's your turn now. Where
do you find fall on the hope spectrum? What are the
practices you use to cultivate hope?
Or maybe you don't. I hope
you will share with us by emailing us
podcastbtscenteruh.org
(26:13):
or calling and leaving us a voicemail at
207-200-6986.
Thank you for listening to the climate change podcast
behind the Scenes Edition with me, Jessica
David. Coming up in our next
episode, we're going to talk about grief and
lament. Yep, that's right. We're going there.
(26:36):
I would love to hear from you listeners. Please
contact me about this episode
or with any questions or feedback you want to
offer. You can call, text, or
email us. We leave a voice message
at
207-200-6986.
That's, uh,
(26:57):
207-2006-9861.
If you are calling from outside the U.S.
you can also text that number at
207-200-6986.
Or if you prefer, you can email us.
The email address again is
(27:17):
podcastabtscenter.org
that's
podcastbtscenter.org
and visit climate
changepodcast.org for show
notes, a, uh, transcript, and more. That
website again is climate
changepodcast.org
(27:40):
Many thanks to my guests Ben Yoshua Davis
and Madeline Bugeau Hart. Also thanks
to producer Peterson Toscano for producing this
episode and Nicole Deroff, uh, for your
assistance and support. Climate
Changed Podcast is a project of the BTS center
in beautiful Portland, Maine. Learn
(28:00):
about the many resources we offer along with our
in person and online programs by visiting our
website site
thebtscenter.org
that's
thebtscenter.org
Goodbye for now.
It's still complicated, but I am signing off with
maybe a little more.
>> Peterson Toscano (28:19):
Hopefully.
Rain
(28:58):
between your toes.
Arms wide, ready
love is true you know
come roll
you can borrow. Com
piece by piece
(29:18):
Thriving in your
home sweet
home
Together all
build your
(29:41):
home
yeah
M
(30:09):
mhm
sa.
What does it mean to be hopeful in this world right
now? How do we change hearts and behaviors,
starting with mine? And how do I talk about climate
catastrophe at my next social gathering without scaring people
away?
I'm Jessica David, a Harvard Divinity School
student. I'm an intern at the BTS center,
(00:25):
which basically means I ask a lot of questions. I'm really
curious about the BTS Center's mission to cultivate
spiritual leadership for a climate changed
world because it seems so worthy and
necessary. So I asked a huge question.
Can I take over the podcast for a few months to learn more
about what you do here?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:43):
And.
>> Jessica David (00:44):
Well, here we are.
Welcome to the Climate Change Podcast behind the Scenes
edition with me, Jessica David.
Listeners, I have a confession. I have been
looking forward to diving into today's topic for a
(01:05):
long time. As a self
proclaimed possibility oriented
pessimist, hope is,
well, complicated to me, which is why
I'm so excited to be here today with two
members of the BTS Center's team.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (01:22):
Hi, everyone. I'm Ben Yoshua Davis, the BTS
Center's Director of Applied Research and also
the regular co host of this podcast. I'm also
an Islander, a nascent homesteader, and a father of
three young children.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (01:36):
And I'm Madeline Bugeau Hart. I'm the program
associate at the BTS center. And beyond these
walls, I'm also a theater maker as well as a community
organizer.
>> Jessica David (01:49):
Welcome, Madeline and Ben. I'm so happy to be here
with you today.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (01:53):
Yeah, uh, it's great to be here with you, Jessica.
>> Jessica David (01:56):
So we're talking about a topic that feels
particularly perilous when it comes to a
spiritual approach to climate change, and that is
hope. So, generally speaking, before we
get into how this relates to the BTS Center's
work, Ben and Madeline, do you
consider yourself hopeful people?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (02:15):
Yes, but I'm not sure
in the way that everyone thinks or what
you'd necessarily expect. And I'm sure we'll get into
that. I'm not hopeful, for example, that life
as we know it is going to continue. And I also
don't believe that hope is an antidote to
despair as it's so often presented.
(02:35):
Um, but I am hopeful that the
mystery of the day and the spontaneous
beauty of the moment and the love between people
can always be found.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (02:49):
So, Madeline, I love your response. Yes,
uh, um, yes
and yes. And, um,
yeah, I find myself in a very similar
place. If by hope you mean am I
hopeful that there is a technological
or political solution that will fix
climate change, which is so Often, the language that I
(03:12):
encounter in these spaces, the answer is no. I am not
hopeful at all. But if you
talk about, do I believe that life, regardless
what happens, can be full of meaning and beauty
and joy, and that there are ways actually to make
that the guiding framework of my life, the
answer is yes, absolutely. I'm very hopeful. And, uh,
(03:32):
when people ask me this question, as they have in other
settings, I often find I have to answer just like this. Where I
have to go, yes. And then I have to define what
hope means to me, because our
cultural definitions of hope are often very
unclear and often extremely contested.
>> Jessica David (03:50):
Okay, so
it's complicated.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (03:55):
Yes.
>> Jessica David (03:57):
You are not decomplicating it for me.
Not that I expected you to.
So let's talk about climate change. When
it comes to climate change, do you have
hope? Because I've got to say, when I read the
data, the science, the news, I do not feel
hopeful at all. Should I be?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (04:17):
I really like what Ben said
about reorienting hope
in a way that isn't like, solar panels are going to save us.
And in almost every single conversation about
climate that I have beyond the walls of the BTS center,
the pattern goes as such. Like, doom, clothes,
gloom. It's not good. But, like, we're hopeful.
That honestly, always a conversation
(04:40):
ender. And so in a climate change
capacity, where I find hope is. And this is like, kind of a
far reach, but maybe we can back ourselves up, um,
from this is de centering. Is in
de centering humanity. What?
Whoa. I know I said it. It's so taboo.
But Ben pointed to this. I'm going there. I'm going
(05:00):
there. Coming in hot. Ben said this, like,
life will continue. That hope of life
continuing. And so when I de center this narrative
of, like, humans must prevail,
I get a lot more hopeful that something beyond
humanity and hopefully including humanity, I love our
species, like, let's go. Is emerging and
wanting to be born.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (05:22):
So, Madeline, this reminds me of a conversation that the two
of us had on my porch on the
island. I don't know if you remember this. You came out a couple
summers ago and had lunch with my family, and then we sat and
we're like, okay, let's talk about the scary
stuff. Uh, what do we think about hope and
climate and collapse and all these things.
(05:43):
One of the things that came for me out of the conversation is
this idea, this narrative that you were just talking about
that, you know, things are really bad. But
there's like, this new solar panel that's going to come out and Save
us all this. There's always another rabbit to be pulled out of the
hat metaphor that I find often used in
modern climate discourse. There are some things that are good about
(06:03):
this because, like, solar panels are important. In about six weeks,
we're getting solar panels on our house because we
are concerned about how we can show up to this present
moment. But one thing that this mindset can't
do is it can't face problems that can't be solved.
So when we face something like climate, which is
a problem that is geologic in
(06:24):
scale, so big it almost defies
comprehension. If we can't hope in
solar panels, it often seems like the. The other
option is to go towards nihilism and
despair. That is not
awesome. That is not helpful for anyone. When I come
back to hope, I think about not what do
I think the outcome is going to be, because that's connecting
(06:46):
my identity to power, something that white folk like
myself like to do a lot. Like, my hope is connected
with my agency to change the world. And rather I try to
connect it back to meaning. To say, even if all this
stuff goes, quote, badly, can I
still understand that my life has meaning?
That's something that is not just an intellectual conviction, but for
(07:07):
me at least, it's a practice that I try to cultivate on
a daily basis.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (07:12):
I would love to jump in. Dear listener, you're
feeling how I felt a couple years ago when I
visited Ben on the island. As he was alluding to, I thought I
was, like, visiting the Collapse Wizard.
I was like, I have some questions for thee.
(07:32):
And yes, did come away feeling
both overwhelmed, but also really validated that we were
actually having the conversation
that was steeped and based in truth and meaning.
So often hope is placed temporarily in the
future. Um, where I do want
to get into longing, because I think that's an important ingredient
(07:53):
for me in this soup, um, of hope.
Temporally, hope lives in the present for me as well.
And I had a dear professor at the Harvard Divinity School,
where Jessica is now, who told this story
of being a hospital chaplain,
uh, and watching patient after
patient throughout his term there get diagnosed with
terminal illnesses. And he said, what was so interesting about
(08:16):
it for me, and he was talking specifically about hope, was that
despite the. The outcome being the outcome, the
unavoidable outcome of a terminal illness,
it's not like people stopped choosing
the next right thing, the next act of
meaning. And that's just what I hear Ben saying, too. And I
couldn't agree more of, like, it's a present moment. It's a
practice. It's a choosing the next right thing in order
(08:38):
to bring more abundant meaning into this
world.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (08:44):
The very practical structures that undergird our lives
feel like they are slipping out of our grasp.
And we keep trying new and often more
extreme interventions, which is often kind of the
dialogue that happens with those who are in hospice. Like, at what point
do we say kind of enough is enough?
Oftentimes my experience was when people hit the point, they were like,
okay, I'm ready for hospice. There was this sense of
(09:06):
peace and release and joy
that actually led to hope because people said, now
that I've given up on the idea that I have to keep surviving,
I can actually focus on living,
enjoying, and appreciating those people who are
closest and most important to me. I can engage in
grief so that my goodbye can be one that is
peaceful and actually hopeful and generative
(09:29):
for the people who are saying goodbye to me as well.
Vaclav Havel says hope is not the conviction that
something will turn out well, but the certainty that
something is worth doing no matter how it turns
out.
>> Jessica David (09:41):
Hmm. I love that quote so much, Ben.
I actually, I have a small business.
I do consulting, and the name of my
business, which I took from a Seamus Heaney quote, very
similar, um, is good worth working for.
The quote is that hope is the conviction that there is
good worth working for. So big fan of
(10:01):
that. I have to say, despite the collapse
wizard being part of this conversation,
I and Madeline bringing doom in within the first
few minutes. I actually think this is really reassuring. I
react very negatively to this
notion that it's all going to be okay. And I think
part of the problem in our culture is
(10:22):
that that's our. That's our
standard reaction to everything. So when someone gets sick,
you know, they're expected to fight it. And, uh, we
don't really know what. How to respond when
things may actually not be
okay. But at the same
time, I don't really know what to do with my
pessimism. Like Ben said, it's a really
(10:44):
easy slide for me from reality to
hopelessness to apathy to nihilism.
What do I do with that? How do I prevent that slide.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (10:55):
Something that Ben just
lifted that I want to all, like, do a, uh, my. Like,
yes and. Or yes. But that might speak to this
pessimism, Jessica, because I've certainly. And I
still do have flows and ebbs in
pessimism as well. And despair. Despair,
like pessimism on a light day.
Um, this word of hospicing
(11:17):
for me Is like a closing
indicates a kind of closing or a death or
an ending too. But I also
feel like, with conviction that something
else is getting born. I don't know what that
is. I only get glimmers of it.
I think whatever it is will be unlike anything
we have ever seen. So yes, this hospicing, as we were
(11:39):
saying to life as we know it, which is frightening and there's
a lot of grief to be had as well. But
rather than. And you're pointing to when people say, oh, it's all gonna be
fine, that used to be inadequate
for me because it felt like it wasn't nuanced
enough, but now it's almost like too boring
for me.
>> Jessica David (11:58):
Hmm.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (11:59):
I'm like, ah, uh, like, yeah, it just doesn't get me
there because I also think that there's like we're on
precipice.
This question of hope lifts for me the question of what are we
choosing to hospice and what are
we choosing to midwife into being
one more layer onto it. Sorry, I can't help myself.
That sort of implies some kind of control
(12:20):
and this like, outcome orientedness. So
rather like what parts of the hospicing that's
already happening do we want to partake in and uh, what
parts of the midwifing that the world is already
doing beyond our, our control do we want
to partake in and be a participant in? It feels
strange, it feels necessarily mysterious to
me, but that starts to like,
(12:43):
sweeten up any despair I might
have. I don't know if I'll even be there to see that, but
it's, it sweetens the pessimism, it sweetens the despair
with a, with a, with a, a whiff of mystery for
me.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (12:55):
I love that actually. It makes me think back to some of
the research we've been doing with
leaders and congregations and members of congregations who
are asking what, uh, is our church's
calling for community and watershed in a climate changed
world? And one of the shifts that we notice happens from the
beginning to the end of our programming. In the beginning of our programming,
(13:15):
people tend to talk in
grandiose, abstract terms. We need to go
out and solve climate change. Like solve
climate change is a thing people say.
>> Jessica David (13:26):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (13:26):
Even at a local level, people will list 10, 12,
like, these are the things we're going to do to change our community.
Christina Lazardi Hajby, who's one of our research advisors who
is looking at some of this stuff with us, was pointing out, well,
that's actually also a function of whiteness One
of the conditions of whiteness and privilege is you think you can do your way out
of a crisis. You move towards things that are universal
(13:47):
rather than place based, that are abstract rather than
relational. One of the things that we notice
happens in a lot of our programming, when people come out the other
side, they're actually talking in
terms that are often humble, where
oftentimes when they respond to these questions, at the end they'll be like,
well, I don't know, I just want to talk about how I'm going to show up.
Or they'll talk about the people or the specific organizations
(14:09):
that they work with. Taking
care of our chickens is an act of hope. Hosting
potlucks at our house so people who are feeling
isolated and despairing can just be together and eat
food is an act of hope.
Preventing myself from sliding into that place of
(14:29):
resigned despair is not actually about some sort of
grand cognitive shift, though those have happened for
me. But it's about the daily practices I try
to engage in that pull myself out of my own
head and pull myself back into the world and
back into living relationship with the
people and the beings that are not human
(14:49):
that I need to be engaged with in this current moment.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (14:55):
Ben, I just love what you said about this, right.
Sizing perspective of like, we're gonna
solve climate change to like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna
host a potluck at my house. I had in my climate
organizing circle, I have a friend who's doing
protest singing. That's like their thing that they're doing. It's
so beautiful. They go every Saturday. And he said to me recently,
he said, you know, we're all working on our little
(15:17):
tile. 50 years from now, we're going to
look back and see the mosaic that it's made
and realize that we were part of a part
of. And that was so beautiful to me. And I think
to your point, what I find hopeful is being
a part of, you said, living, uh,
relationships. Being in these
community organizing circles and watching and
(15:40):
being a part of people practicing into their longing.
Like we're all longing for this better
world to emerge. Or rather like a world in which it is
easier to love, I think is the language I often use. And
that in and of itself feels so hopeful.
>> Jessica David (15:54):
Yeah, I'm thinking, I
don't know how the listeners would respond to this, but when you use the
word mystery, for me, there was a bit of a shift there,
because thinking about something as
the mystery that it is allows that humility that
Ben was talking about. And it Allows me to
engage in a very different way than when I'm looking for
(16:14):
solutions. I love hearing
Ben talk about the. Is it the ministry of the
potluck? The ministry of the potluck. I love
it. I love it. I'm also bringing that back
into my life. So thank you for that.
Here's a question for you. Is hope
a noun? Is it a verb? Is it an
adjective? What is it?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (16:36):
I think it's a verb. Ben, do you think it's a verb?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (16:40):
Goodness. Um, you're asking me about grammar at this time in the
morning?
I don't think, Jessica, your question is probably primarily about
grammar.
>> Jessica David (16:50):
Not at all.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (16:52):
I think about hope either as a practice
or as a living
virtue which we cultivate. Like we might
cultivate a seedling, um, as we're ready for
spring to come.
>> Jessica David (17:04):
A living virtue which we cultivate.
Ooh, I like that.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (17:09):
Chef's kiss. I love that. That's
beautiful.
>> Jessica David (17:12):
Does hope look different if you practice it
individually versus in community?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (17:18):
Yeah. Ben?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (17:20):
Yeah, I. I don't think you can practice hope individually.
>> Jessica David (17:23):
Ooh, same.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (17:26):
This is part of our modern Western individualism.
We think of these virtues in these practices. We atomize
them down to the level of self, because those are our
cultural biases. But I find it
really hard to kind of ramp myself up
into a head trip of sufficient power to maintain hope
when I'm not in relationship with others.
(17:47):
This is one of the big shifts, Madeline, coming back
to what you were talking about. Paying attention to what's being birthed or
midwifed is we're again realizing we can't be
human without other beings,
both the human and the other than human. And I
don't think we can be hopeful unless we're in
community. The humans were not
built to be hopeful without
(18:09):
community, because sometimes even during really difficult
moments, one of the ways you can tell that a community is healthy
is how. How good the funerals are.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (18:17):
Wow.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (18:18):
I live on an island with incredible funerals
and have watched this community bear
together through unimaginable tragedies.
I mean, just horrible, horrible things that have happened to beloved
members of the community. The community is doing
fine. And the reason is they all show up together.
That's like 90% of what's going on as they show up
(18:38):
together. And for me, that's what hope is
about as well. When we are together,
that makes me more hopeful.
>> Jessica David (18:46):
Mhm. Lovely.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (18:47):
Um, I would second that. I think anything
done in communion
and in community, hope is starting to
feel like an act of communion for me throughout this Conversation
just gains muscle.
I think of myself when I'm like, uh. And then in
community, though, like, there's an amplification, and it's
(19:07):
not like we're trying to be better or more. Or get more
productivity involved, but there is sort of a. A
muscle that comes in when we're doing things
necessarily together. I would
add, I hope for different things when
I'm in the collective than when I'm
by myself. So, like, Madeline hopes for true love
and like Madeline hopes for, like, her car. Not to
(19:29):
break down. The list
goes on. But when I'm in a collective, I'm
longing and I'm hoping for different things
that are way beyond that. Absolutely include
me and have nothing to do with me at the same time. And that
feels.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (19:45):
I love that.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (19:45):
Do you like it, Ben?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (19:46):
I love that. I love true love and a functioning car.
Yeah, well, you know, those are good things. I hope for both true
love and a functioning car, having ridden in your pickup
truck.
>> Jessica David (19:57):
Until we have no more cars.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (19:59):
Until we have no more cars. Um, but
like, the idea that actually hope is not something
we hold individually, but shaped collectively.
And so actually, we together, collectively
shape the boundaries and the imagination of our hope, which means
it brings into our field of view things that
we might not otherwise be hoping for.
>> Jessica David (20:20):
I really made this connection between longing and
hope for me right there, Madeline, that I was. I was struggling
with in the beginning of this conversation, but now thinking
about longing as how hope,
one of the ways hope can shows up in community
and in relationship. We could talk about
this for a long time. We do talk about this a lot at the
BTS Center.
(20:42):
But I have to come to my last question,
which is, not surprisingly, a
complicated one. But I started today talking about how I
struggle with hope. And I also recognize with
humility that I am not
experiencing the worst impacts of climate change.
I am not in a position
(21:02):
where it is impacting me directly. It's very
much an emotional exercise, an intellectual
exercise. But there are so many people who are dealing
directly with climate disasters,
oppression, poverty, health, the things
that are intertwined with climate.
What would you say to them about hope?
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (21:24):
I have a strong response to this question. It's such a
good question. Um, and I think I want to
hearken back to what I mentioned earlier in the conversation.
Whereas hope is usually lifted as an
antidote, like a. It's almost like
using. Like offering Tylenol and
someone's leg is falling off, and it's like, uh, this
doesn't. And I don't think I would talk
(21:47):
I'm gonna. I don't know if this is the answer you want, Jessica, but I
don't think it would be appropriate for me to offer
any comments about hope, certainly not
antidotally. And the people I've known who have
suffered a great deal. It's never the
time for me to be like, oh, but here's a
little nugget of hope for you. It's about listening
and listening and maybe, maybe
(22:08):
asking them. But even that feels like a
step too far. Just like I don't. Like I had a
family member go through
their own personal tragedy this past year. I wasn't talking
about God with them. Wasn't talking about, well,
God has a plan. No, no, no, no. I might think that for
myself, but I think this question is so
important. And I also,
(22:31):
yeah, I think listening is my answer, and not
talking about hope feels like the right
response in terms of your question.
Ben, I'm curious what you think about that.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (22:40):
So there are two things that come to mind. And the first thing I want to say, I, uh, think
to you, Jessica, and also maybe to many of our
listeners who struggle with the well, I'm in a position of privilege.
So do I have a right to feel
anxious? Do I have a right to feel like I'm suffering? And
I think this is a reminder we are not in the Suffering
Olympics. M. We are not ranking each
(23:00):
other's sufferings. We're not in a competition.
And so the first thing to say is, if you
are feeling these deep feelings of anxiety and
despair, those are legitimate and have
their own inner integrity and do not need to be compared to
anyone else's. There
are ways that this shuffering gets shaped differently depending
on our social and cultural context. And it
(23:23):
is okay, even in a privileged context like ours,
to feel anxiety and depression
and despair and to say those things are real
without having to compare them and find them wanting to anyone
else. The second thing I'll say is this. My
experience is that oftentimes I learn
the most about hope from people who are in positions of
intense poverty, poor health,
(23:46):
oppression, and suffering.
My experience is they are the people who have taught me the
most about hope. So oftentimes
I find when I come into those moments, I would just want to
ask them. In the face of such suffering,
if it was me, my whole meaning making systems would have completely broken
down. And my experiences, and this was often my
(24:06):
experience when I had friends who were refugees
seeking asylum in this country, is they were able to
hold together hope and grief,
joy and pain in a way that I
didn't even have in my field of reference. So
oftentimes with the people you're talking about, Jessica,
I want to sit at their feet and say, teach me
about hope. Because oftentimes I find they are holding
(24:28):
it in a way that, um, I am not yet
capable of doing.
>> Jessica David (24:32):
Yes. And it's so. I find it so helpful
to acknowledge that hope can exist. It can
coexist with these other things, with despair,
with suffering, um, with grief,
with other emotions. And that sometimes, you
know, we don't have to force ourselves into it, which is another
thing. I think that often in society,
(24:53):
we're expected to be hopeful. Yeah.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (24:55):
It's a part of, um. I love that, Jessica. It's a part
of this wild stew that we're all
stewing in together. That is life at this moment. This
is a serious life.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (25:05):
Well, and in fact, all our ancient religious traditions tell us
that hope comes from suffering,
not in spite of suffering, not alongside
suffering, but hope actually comes
from suffering. And that's a
reframing I am still getting my head around.
>> Jessica David (25:23):
Indeed. Yeah.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (25:24):
A cliffhanger. Ben leaving a cliffhanger.
Cliffhanger.
>> Jessica David (25:32):
Well, we have to end it there. Even though I don't really want
to. I want to keep going.
M. Thank you so much, Madeline and Ben,
for this really important
conversation, which was just as
unhinged as I expected it to be. So
thank you.
>> Madeline Bugeau-Heartt (25:49):
There's more where that came from.
>> Jessica David (25:51):
No, thank you for bringing us through it.
So, listeners, it's your turn now. Where
do you find fall on the hope spectrum? What are the
practices you use to cultivate hope?
Or maybe you don't. I hope
you will share with us by emailing us
podcastbtscenteruh.org
(26:13):
or calling and leaving us a voicemail at
207-200-6986.
Thank you for listening to the climate change podcast
behind the Scenes Edition with me, Jessica
David. Coming up in our next
episode, we're going to talk about grief and
lament. Yep, that's right. We're going there.
(26:36):
I would love to hear from you listeners. Please
contact me about this episode
or with any questions or feedback you want to
offer. You can call, text, or
email us. We leave a voice message
at
207-200-6986.
That's, uh,
(26:57):
207-2006-9861.
If you are calling from outside the U.S.
you can also text that number at
207-200-6986.
Or if you prefer, you can email us.
The email address again is
(27:17):
podcastabtscenter.org
that's
podcastbtscenter.org
and visit climate
changepodcast.org for show
notes, a, uh, transcript, and more. That
website again is climate
changepodcast.org
(27:40):
Many thanks to my guests Ben Yoshua Davis
and Madeline Bugeau Hart. Also thanks
to producer Peterson Toscano for producing this
episode and Nicole Deroff, uh, for your
assistance and support. Climate
Changed Podcast is a project of the BTS center
in beautiful Portland, Maine. Learn
(28:00):
about the many resources we offer along with our
in person and online programs by visiting our
website site
thebtscenter.org
that's
thebtscenter.org
Goodbye for now.
It's still complicated, but I am signing off with
maybe a little more.
>> Peterson Toscano (28:19):
Hopefully.
Rain
(28:58):
between your toes.
Arms wide, ready
love is true you know
come roll
you can borrow. Com
piece by piece
(29:18):
Thriving in your
home sweet
home
Together all
build your
(29:41):
home
yeah
M
(30:09):
mhm
sa.
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