June 24, 2025 • 51 mins
In this special episode of Climate Changed, we’re delighted to share an episode from Religion & Justice, a podcast produced by our partners at the Wendland-Cook Program in Religion and Justice at Vanderbilt Divinity School.
Hosted by Gabriella Lisi (she/they/he) and George Schmidt (he/him/ours), Religion & Justice explores the intersections of class, religion, labor, and ecology. In this featured episode, titled “Deep Solidarity and Moralizing”, they sit down with theologian Dr. Joerg Rieger to discuss the relationship between economic power structures, ecological devastation, and the role of religion in building alternative systems grounded in deep solidarity.
Dr. Rieger introduces key distinctions between privilege and power, critiques individualistic approaches to climate action, and invites us to imagine economic and spiritual solidarity that moves from the grassroots upward. He explores how worker co-ops, solidarity economies, and faith-rooted organizing might form the foundation of a more just and life-giving future.
🌱 To learn more about the Wendland-Cook Program and their offerings—including their Solidarity Circles for faith leaders—visit: https://www.religionandjustice.org
📖 Read Dr. Rieger’s article “Theology in the Capitalocene”: https://www.religionandjustice.org/interventions-forum-on-privilege-and-power-in-the-capitalocene
We invite you to reflect on how this conversation resonates with your work in a climate-changed world. Share your thoughts with us by text or voicemail at (207) 200-6986 or by email at podcast@thebtscenter.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:01):
Hello, friends. I am Nicole
Dehroff and you are listening to
Climate Changed, a podcast about
pursuing faith, life and love
in a climate changed world. The
Climate Changed Podcast is a project of the
BTS center, an organization
focused on spiritual leadership for
(00:23):
a climate changed world.
Collaborations and relationships are vital to the
work we do here at the BTS Center.
So today we are sharing a podcast episode
produced by one of our partner
organizations. In a moment, you will hear
(00:44):
an episode of the Religion and Justice
Podcast. It is hosted by
Gabriella Lisi and George
Schmidt. Their podcast
explores the intersections of class,
religion, labor and
ecology. It is a project
of the Wendland Cook Program in Religion
(01:05):
and justice at Vanderbilt Divinity
School.
We were introduced to Wendland Cook
through one of our BTS center research advisors
who was working closely with both organizations.
She said the two of you need to know
(01:28):
one another. We take those
comments very seriously.
So many of our program partnerships
are rooted in a comment just like that one
in this podcast. Partnership and Exchange.
We are grateful for the opportunity to share
some of the Wendland Cook Center's work.
(01:55):
This episode of the Religion and Justice podcast
is titled Deep Solidarity
and Moralizing. I hope you
enjoy the show.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (02:26):
You have to reach out to your.
>> Gabriella Lisi (02:27):
Friends who think they are making it.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (02:30):
Good and get them to understand
that they, as well as you
and I, cannot be free
in America or anywhere ah
else where there is capitalism
and imperialism until we
can get people to recognize
(02:52):
that they themselves have to make the
struggle and have to make the fight for
freedom every day in the year,
every year until they win it.
Thank you.
>> Gabriella Lisi (03:08):
Welcome back to Religion and Justice, the podcast of the One and
Cook Program in Religion and justice at A.H. vanderbilt
Divinity School. I'm one of your hosts, Gabby Liese,
and today we're honored to have with us a
distinguished scholar whose work has significantly shaped the
conversation around the intersections of religion,
economics and ecology. Joining us
(03:28):
again is Dr. Yor Greger, the Cal Turner
Chancellor's Chair of Wesleyan Studies and Distinguished
professor of Theology at Vanderbilt Divinity School.
He's also the founder and director of the Wendland Cook Program
in Religion and justice, the very program that
sponsors this podcast. Dr. Rieger has
long been a leading voice in connecting the dots between theology,
(03:49):
social justice and economic systems. His
work continually challenges us to rethink how we
understand the role of religion in the struggles for
justice. In his recent article, part of his
ecology series, Response to intervention
series on, um, ecology, economics and religion,
Dr. Rager explores the deep connections between the
(04:09):
exploitation of people and the exploitation of the
Planet. He introduces us to the concept of
deep solidarity, which emphasizes the
interconnectedness of various forms of exploitation,
whether related to class, race, gender
or ecology, and the urgent need to build
resilient alternatives to these oppressive systems.
(04:30):
Today we'll discuss how these ideas are being put into practice
and what they mean for the future of theology, religious
communities and social justice movements.
Without further ado, let's get into it.
In the article, you referenced deep solidarity, a term
you coined yourself along with Rosemarie and
(04:52):
Gold Rieger. Could you provide for our audience
an overview of what you mean by deep
solidarity and how deep
solidarity differs from a more conventional notion
of solidarity?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (05:06):
This morning I read somebody, uh, who
was talking about solidarity is our moral
imperative, saying we must be
in solidarity, uh, and so on and so forth.
Certainly it's better to be in solidarity than not,
but I don't think it's strong enough. I mean, whatever that moral
imperative is, uh, you know, it can always be
(05:27):
ignored, and people can always go
back behind it. And morality, in the end,
leaves you tired, you know,
trying to be a nice person and a good person all the time.
So. So deep solidarity is sort of a bit of a remedy
to that. It's not saying we must do this and we must do
that. It's not even sort of a recipe for
activism. Uh, it takes us back,
(05:50):
thinking about, uh, our deep connections. This is the
deep point. You know, we're connected at some level.
Uh, and of course the system doesn't want us to know it, right?
So take working people. Uh, the system is actually
playing working people off against each other.
University is a great example. You know, everybody's sort of against
everybody else without realizing that
these folks actually have something in common. What
(06:13):
is it? Uh, well, in some ways, uh,
minimally, it is, uh, that
they're all exploited and contributing
to the profit and power of the system at some level.
So that type of solidarity, uh, you
know, by the way, I find this in the Apostle Paul.
I know I quote him a lot here, uh, but let me
(06:33):
do it one more time. Uh, First Corinthians 12, verse
26. If one member suffers,
all suffer together with it. It's, uh, not the moral
imperative you ought to be suffering. But, uh, you
know, the unions, uh, put it differently. The labor
unions, they say, an injury to one is an
injury to all. That's your solidarity. Realize
that's what's happening to the least of these. It's.
(06:56):
Use some other, uh, gospel language here, Jesus
language. Uh, what's happening to the
least of these is Happening to
the rest of us, at least the 99%, the
1%, uh, they have their ways of, uh,
making sure they're fine. They do all kinds of things to make sure
they're fine. But the 99%, by and large, this
is not an Olympics of oppression to say we're all equally
(07:19):
worse off. But, um, what ties us
together is the fact that one member
is hurt, uh, all are hurt. This is, by the way,
the ecological principle too, right? Uh, if
people are exploited, uh, well, guess what?
The planet is being exploited also, which puts
us together in a type of
(07:39):
solidarity that's much deeper than somebody
telling you you ought to be in solidarity. Now
that thing then, this is the beauty of. It
doesn't, uh, depend on sameness. It doesn't
depend primarily on ident entity or who you
are or belonging, all that stuff that's
fashionable these days. Uh, it, it belongs
on a pretty clear analysis of
(08:02):
what are we up against, what's putting us in
this same boat. And then of course, the beauty of it, once you
realize it, uh, then you can employ
your resources to fight back. Now you can do something
to make a difference and then solidarity becomes
active. So whatever is that foundation here,
building on that, you know, now people say,
(08:23):
well, if we're up against,
you know, say, an economy, a
culture, a religion, uh, that is
ultimately exploiting us and down the road
killing us, uh, we now can work together
using what we got to do it. Uh, so this is a
great way then of working intersectionally because
(08:44):
a white Walmart worker and a black Walmart
worker, um, they have some
inbuilt solidarity, even though of course
Walmart doesn't want them to see it. Right. Uh, as does
you, university professor and an adjunct professor. This is the
sort of stuff we don't want to talk about, as does,
uh, you know, an immigrant auto worker and a
non immigrant auto worker, uh, as does a
(09:06):
human being, uh, you know, and,
um, the trees that are outside
of my window, uh, because if global warming sort
of kills us all off, uh, we may have
something to fight, uh, alongside each
other, where the tree doesn't have to become me and I don't have to
become a tree, but we got something to bring to the table.
(09:27):
Uh, one more thing is important here. Since we're talking
religion, I mean, want to make sure
everybody understands that we're of course doing
social analysis here. We're looking at the economy, at
culture, at politics. But
I'm a theologian, so I want to talk theology and
religion, uh, in connection to all of it so
think about interreligious conversations, dialogue
(09:49):
that now works on the basis of this,
of the solidarity, uh, where
say the Christian and the Muslim realize, uh,
they're after all of us, uh, they're basically
exploiting us, uh, however they can.
And by working together, uh, we can make a difference.
Now the point then is not
(10:11):
identifying similarities or becoming more
aware, but bringing to bear in the
struggle what we can bring from our traditions.
And thereby of course you learn from each other, right? Uh, you don't
have to claim identities and similarity, uh,
but you certainly have a common interest now. And once
you work that out, Christian learn something about
(10:32):
Islam, the Muslim learn something about
Christianity. That is the way forward.
As I see it.
>> Gabriella Lisi (10:41):
You can't moralize your way out of oppression. It's going to
take, it's going to take quite a bit more than that.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (10:49):
I want to say, uh, today that may be
it. You know, let's not think we can moralize
or uh, you know, activistize
ourselves out of oppression by just
protesting a lot or being really, really mad
about something or doing more.
We need to look at the bigger picture. And here's
(11:10):
the thing I probably should mention too,
when we're talking about ecology,
a lot of people don't know this, but it was the oil companies
that invented the carbon footprint calculators,
uh, that a lot of well meaning people, including myself, used
to good effect. Not a bad thing to calculate
(11:31):
your carbon footprint. So not making light of that,
let's use carbon footprint calculators. But let's
also realize that uh, these things were introduced
by corporate interests, uh, that want
to deflect from the overall system,
uh, and then sort of put people into some moral
situation, some activist situation, uh,
(11:51):
where uh, they're ultimately fighting themselves uh,
instead of the dominant interests.
And that's the sort of thing I'm really uh, concerned about.
In progressive circles especially.
>> Gabriella Lisi (12:07):
There are companies that have produced glass bottles.
Back in the day before I was alive, they
switched from glass to plastic because it was cheaper
than pollution increased as a result.
City councils were getting really upset about
seeing basically like Coke and Pepsi bottles all
over their town, on the sides of the road, not
(12:28):
in trash cans, not being recycled. And so the
city councils were coming together. They went to the state
legislatures and then asked the states to go after
the, these corporations and ask them to basically stop making
these plastic bottles. The
corporation's response was to create
individual centered recycling
campaigns about how you should be recycling the
(12:50):
plastic bottles and it's your fault that
pollution is on the rise. It's your fault that the cities
look this way. Couldn't be us the ones producing
the trash. It has to be the individual.
Then they co opted a whole movement, flipped it on
its head, flipped the coin on,
(13:10):
and the communities that were being polluted and said it's actually your
fault. And I think that's what you're touching on here, Jorg, if
I'm not mistaken.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (13:20):
You know, a lot of these, uh, recycling
campaigns have been invented, uh, to make
people feel less bad about, you know, using
disposable products and so on.
>> George Schmidt (13:49):
There's a line that you say that these
alternatives exist and are flourishing and
growing is witness to the fact that something bigger is at
work. And this is the line that really got me.
This is where theologians might find God
and this reality, whatever else it may be called,
can actually be experienced in tangible ways.
(14:10):
Could you say more about that line?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (14:13):
Yeah, this is sort of, uh, the basic
theological principle that I've been pursuing
for many years now. Because I think
we're looking for God in all the wrong places. And this is almost
like a default notion, right? I mean, usually
when people look for God, it's almost like they look up in
the sky or somehow up to something higher,
right? Maybe it's not the sky, but the skyscraper
(14:36):
corner office up there, you know, or the big,
the big church steeples or all of that.
That's sort of almost the default notion, you know. Anselm
of Canterbury, uh, what is God?
Something, then nothing greater can be perceived.
Uh, and then of course, it really depends on what you mean by greater, right? The
great boss, you know, the great theologian, the great leader,
(14:57):
the great politician, the great president, you know,
uh, that sort of stuff. Uh, and I think this is, this is
really looking in, in the wrong places.
Here's a fun thing that you probably did not expect me
to say, but, uh, I'm a
Methodist, so, uh, deep down, you know, I'm a theologist.
>> George Schmidt (15:14):
I was not expecting you.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (15:16):
I know you were. And, uh, this is why I
tell.
>> George Schmidt (15:19):
You, of all the things you could have said, that was the one that I was not
expecting.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (15:23):
So, so here's the Methodist thing about this. Uh, and I,
uh, learned something I learned from John
Wesley, uh, you know, the father of Methodism. Of
course, I'm m an ecumenical Methodist. I'm also
interreligious, so don't get me wrong. But, uh,
there's a sentence that Wesley writes in his journal,
um, after some frustrations, it seems to
me, um, where he says religion
(15:46):
must not go from the greatest to
the least or the power would appear to
be of men. So religion must not
go from the greatest to the least
or the power would appear to be of men.
Uh, this was said in the 18th century. I think
it's the basic foundation of a lot of the critique.
(16:06):
I mean, not that people quote Wesley, but the sentiment
underlies a lot of the 19th century critiques of
religion that basically look at religion
as a projection, you know, as sort of a product of
humanity. Uh, but it usually is the product
of dominant humanity. And that's something
that's to be expected. You know, you have dominant religion,
(16:26):
uh, and all of a sudden, uh, you know, Jesus, well,
Jesus looks very much like Donald Trump. You know, there's
stuff out there now. You know, if you look at, you just Google
Jesus and Donald Trump. You have now, uh, these
artists, uh, making Trump and Jesus
look alike. You know, uh, that's of course extreme.
Uh, but you know, Jesus looking more and more like, uh, you
(16:47):
know, the dominant majority, uh, everybody knows, sort of
the light haired, blue eyed Jesus produced by
European Christian. And that's natural.
So that's what happens by default all the
time. Uh, what's interesting to me is once
you turn that around, uh, 20 years later, uh, after
Wesley realized that religion mustn't go from the greatest to the
(17:07):
least, uh, he says, um,
commenting on some Bible verse saying religion, uh,
goes from the least to the greatest. Uh, that's sort of the
Wesleyan insight here that religion actually
starts at the grassroots. And to
me that's the exciting thing. You know, this is not
religion as dominant projection, uh, but this
(17:28):
is religion emerging in
seemingly unlikely places, you know, where
nobody really cares to look. But that's of course the Christmas
story, right? This is where Jesus comes in, you know, from
the least to the greatest, uh, you know, goes the other way around.
Uh, this is where the apostles come in. You know, the
apostle Paul sort of, uh, was a guy who was
in and out of prison for most of his life because the
(17:50):
Roman Empire realized he was dangerous to the
concerns of the empire. You know, you look at
Moses, uh, same story, here's a kid that grows
up, a Hebrew kid, grows up in the Pharaoh's court
and then realizes, no, this is all wrong, uh, and
turns around, uh, and joins the liberation
movement. So, so religion here going from the bottom
up, uh, you know, the burning bush story is
(18:13):
precisely, uh, that, you know, God saying,
I have heard the cry of my people, I have
seen their misery. Uh, we're going to do something about it
now. Um, here's the Funny thing. I, uh,
think this is very important for theologians to
look at, but this makes you think about
miracles. Now, again, uh, that's the
(18:33):
second surprise, George, I don't think you
were expecting.
>> George Schmidt (18:37):
Well, after you said the Methodist thing, nothing's going to surprise me
now.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (18:40):
No, uh, the third thing is going to be an altar call. But,
uh, I'll leave that for the end.
But seriously, I mean, think about what is the miracle? You know,
I mean, Wesley is saying if the top
wants to do something, it gets it done. No
miracle here. Uh, Friedrich Landmark, by the way. Uh, that
was his 19th century interpretation of Christianity. Says
(19:02):
Christianity doesn't need miracles anymore
because in view of the great civilization, uh,
and the great power of the Western people, I mean,
this is actually in his book the Christian faith, around page
450, you can look it up. He
says, we don't need this stuff. Any miracle stuff we don't need.
I am telling you, uh, miracle stuff is precisely
(19:23):
that, uh, which comes out
of the cracks, out of the fissures, uh, that emerges
and builds a power, uh, that in the end
overcomes empire. I mean, this is powerful
stuff. This is the stuff that, uh, time and
again turns around history. And of course, I'm not fantasizing
here. I think this is the old, uh, you know, Exodus
(19:44):
story out of Egypt has its own limitations. I
don't want to make it too simplistic, but this is the
liberation stories. I mean, if you look at the U.S.
uh, the history of the U.S. you know, this is the liberation of
slaves. You know, who would have expected that? This is now
women's voting rights, uh, this is now the
labor movement, uh, all those kinds of things
(20:04):
that come seemingly out of nowhere.
Uh, but, um, present
a power that's ultimately bigger than all of us, and that's
the place to look for God. So that's sort of in a bit of
an involved way. Um, my,
my answer to your question, Uh, I, I think that's
fascinating. And that's something that keeps me
busy. Um, has kept me busy for
(20:27):
30 years. Probably I'll need another couple of
decades to figure it out. And I will not figure it out
in the end either.
>> Gabriella Lisi (20:35):
Your work emphasizes a lot about
privilege and power and the distinction that you identify between
the two. How would you say this distinction
contributes to a more nuanced understanding of
social dynamics? Um, especially in the
context of economic
inequalities, racial inequalities,
gender inequalities, etc.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (20:57):
At one level, this is a very simple distinction.
Uh, unfortunately, it's Totally overlooked. I mean, I
don't see it used, uh, in many
ways. Uh, so let me start with privilege.
Uh, I mean, privilege is pretty obvious, right? In our world.
There is white privilege, there's male
privilege, there's European privilege, American privilege,
you name it. Um, those things
(21:20):
I think, uh, especially in progressive circles, uh, we
have become more aware of. And I
think once you go down that rabbit hole, you know, you can really
look at a lot of, um,
privileged, um, things,
you know, uh, causes for, for that privilege,
uh, that, that are important to engage. So,
(21:40):
so when I now in, uh, a moment move beyond priv,
uh, but keep in mind that these things are
really important. Ah, we have to engage them. You know,
heterosexual privilege and so on,
um, you know, the privilege of
citizens versus immigrants,
all of that, uh, is quite important. Uh,
the problem comes when people confuse privilege
(22:03):
and power. And I think this is, this is usually
what happens in, well meaning progressive circles. I think
I see this in almost every church that has become aware
of its privilege. Because privileged people then that realize
their privilege think my privilege translates into
power. And it doesn't quite work that way.
Uh, so for white people to think that
(22:23):
white privilege, uh, turns into power,
uh, is really fooling themselves. Uh,
for black people to think that white people
turns into privilege, uh, is also, uh,
not helpful. Because then, uh, from the black
perspective, the hope is, well, if white people were
using their privilege to deconstruct whiteness,
(22:44):
um, that would then solve the problem. Uh, unfortunately
it doesn't. Uh, your privilege doesn't necessarily mean
that you can actually now overcome it, which is where
the power question comes in. Power is
something, uh, uh, to engage privilege,
uh, to subvert privilege, perhaps power is a different thing. So
think about white people now, white supremacy,
(23:04):
uh, the white majority, that sort of thing
of this white majority,
real power is really concentrated, uh, at
the top. Top right there is some people that
then of course combine white privilege and a
lot of money and a lot of power. Most white
people do not have this power. So this is why most
(23:25):
white people cannot turn off racism, which is
structural, and they cannot control it.
Somebody, uh, who has tremendous, uh, power and
influence, like a president, uh, very
effectively, of course, using privilege to build their
power. Uh, and of course their power then gets
built, uh, with the illusion that other white people share in
(23:45):
that power. This is why, you know, Trump, ah,
is so attractive because people think his power is our
power. Uh, but Trump's, make no mistake, Trump's power
is. Trump's power is not your power. Uh, it's actually
Built, uh, not only on subduing,
uh, all, uh, bipoc people, right, uh, uh,
non white people. It's also built on
(24:06):
subduing, uh, uh, most of all white people, because
they're fooled by not distinguishing
privilege and power. So once you said that, uh, uh,
and of course this power analysis is
somehow related to a class analysis, realizing
that racial privilege, gender privilege, and so on doesn't
translate into power, uh, necessarily, uh,
certainly not great power. Power means
(24:28):
to really do something that, you know,
changes the world. So you have that
distinction. Uh, and then I think, uh, the
question then becomes, for those of us who are
not the 1%, of course these are symbolic numbers,
maybe more than 0.1%. Or does that leave
us? How do we put privilege and power
together? How do we organize a different kind of
(24:51):
power that ultimately, uh, dismantles
things?
>> Gabriella Lisi (24:55):
This is your bread and butter, you know, and I wanted our audience
to be able to hear it from your
mouth. So I come from a
predominantly white town in rural America,
and it's a, It's a very poor town.
Um, and so, um, when I,
um, went off to college, by the grace of God,
(25:15):
I ran into a lot of folks who, who were a lot better
off, uh, than. Than my family was financially.
But this was around 2015,
2016, and that, that was really when a lot of
the Black Lives Matter was really
turning up. And so hearing that
because I was white meant that I had
privilege, which then translated into power, according
(25:38):
to what I was being told by
organizers, by teachers, professors, you know,
fellow friends, Whatever it was, it didn't make
sense to me because I had grown up on food
stamps. I had grown up going to, you
know, going to food pantries that were run
by churches because clothes were being donated to,
um, myself and my mother because we couldn't afford
(26:01):
clothes. Uh, and so hearing that I had all this
privilege and all this power didn't make sense to me.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (26:07):
This is very helpful, Gabby. Uh, what you're getting from that,
uh, is really a very destructive way of going
forward, because then it makes people feel bad who
have privilege. I mean, uh, obviously you have white privilege.
I do, yeah. I mean, you understand this, of
course. I know you do. Uh, but not having
this power and then having these two confused
(26:27):
then makes people with privilege sort of scratch their
head and say, well, somehow I have this privilege, but it's not
doing anything. Then either you
become frustrated, uh, or
worse, you know, angry, uh, pushback, you
know, um, but whatever,
you're not going to find a positive solution to it. Because, you
know, no matter how bad you feel, no matter how much
(26:50):
you confess to your privilege, uh, you're not really put
on a way of building, um, different
kind of power. And that's, that's my whole point by
distinguishing privilege and power, I'm saying, um,
power is really, um,
concentrated at the top. No matter how much privilege
is now, uh, you know, uh, a majority
thing perhaps. You know, white people are still in the majority in the
(27:12):
U.S. but power isn't, uh,
held by the majority now. Uh, the beauty
of it is now, uh, first of all, uh, not only do you
understand your own situation better, you now can say, well, how
do we build power differently? And you might realize
the fact that I don't have power and my
non white neighbor also doesn't have power
maybe brings us together. This is that solidarity I was
(27:35):
talking about earlier. There is a way of figuring out,
uh, we can build solidarities even,
uh, across different levels of privilege.
Uh, maybe one more thing about solidarity I didn't say
earlier because that's really important. So there's
this moralistic solidarity I'm not too excited about.
But then there's a right wing solidarity, uh,
(27:56):
which is tremendously damaging, which is all
built on the confusion of privilege, power.
So now solidarity means all white people
somehow because of their privilege, are in
solidarity. That's of course what the white nationalists
want us to do, to believe. Right, Patriotism,
uh, built, uh, you know, on, on sort of
nationality is the same thing. Making people
(28:18):
believe that, uh, all people of a certain
nation are now in solidarity,
male solidarity. You know, all men are
supposedly in solidarity. Uh, but that's of course
misleading. And so this white supremacist
solidari is not only,
uh, to conquer black people, it's really also
to conquer white people because it's suggesting
(28:41):
to people you have more in common, uh, with
a Donald Trump as a white person than
you have with your black fellow neighbor, you know, or the
person that works with you in the same job. Uh, and that's of
course a tremendous fallacy. That's not true. But
that's used by the dominant system to maintain
the dominant power. Fascism is the same thing, you
(29:01):
know, for Germans, my ancestors, my
grandfathers, to, uh, be told,
uh, you have more in common with Adolf Hitler because
you're a German, uh, than you have, uh,
with the French soldiers and the British
soldiers or, you know, whatever happened in
Africa. That's of course a tremendous fallacy that
did not help my grandfathers, um,
(29:23):
but, uh, that built fascism for
the few rather than a uh, system that helps to
many. So those are, um, intentional confusions
there to false solidarities that get
used to mislead people.
>> Gabriella Lisi (29:37):
Yeah, this was no accident.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (29:39):
One more false solidarity. Since we're talking
religion here. Religion functions like that too.
So people somehow now supposedly, uh, having
to believe that all Christians are in
solidarity against the non Christians, that's a
fallacy. Uh, because Christianity, of
course, when it is used for the purposes of
the dominant few, uh, is not, not
(30:02):
the Christianity of Jesus, you know, this is not the
Christianity of the majority. And so here
to, uh, making that distinction, uh, is
tremendously important.
>> Nicole Diroff (30:14):
I'm Jessica David, a divinity school student
and intern at the BTS Center. Lately,
I've been thinking a lot about spirituality.
How it shows up everywhere and shapes how we move
through the world. Maybe it's just me, but
it feels awfully complicated to be alive.
(30:37):
So for the next few months, I'm stepping behind the mic at, uh,
climate changed. I'll ask
the BTS Center's team some big,
messy and important questions,
like how do we hold grief and hope at the same
time? What keeps us open
when the world feels overwhelming?
(30:59):
Can small steps become radical leaps?
What is a good life?
What practices ground us, push us,
and help us claim our place in this moment?
And don't worry, it won't all be heavy. I promise we'll have
some fun along the way.
Join me for Climate Change behind the Scenes
(31:21):
edition. Let's explore this
complicated stuff together.
>> George Schmidt (31:44):
If we haven't gotten in trouble yet, I want to get us in trouble just
a little bit further by asking you a question about
your article. You say
many of us would agree that here is
too much pie in the sky in
religion, not only in the otherworldly
dreams about heaven, but also
in. And this is what, this is the part that I want
(32:07):
to ask you to say more about,
but also in some progressive,
idealistic imaginations. Could
you be more specific? What you were thinking of when you were talking about
some progressive, idealistic imaginations.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (32:23):
You're putting me in the hot seat, George.
>> Gabriella Lisi (32:25):
Uh, trying to get Jorg in trouble?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (32:29):
Uh, yeah, no, this is good. It's, it's a cold day here in
Nashville, so I, I, I don't mind being in the hot
seat. But seriously, I mean,
this is, this is, uh, this is a really important question.
Uh, and you know, to some degree, I would say it is the
bane of progressive theological education.
Uh, because, see, so many of our students come to
(32:50):
seminary and they say we're so sick and
tired of this pie in the sky. Religion. Religion
has to be applied in the world.
Religion is about the world. It's about, you know,
whatever we do, it's about material
things instead of just ideal things. Uh,
and that's all true. I mean, I, I agree with it. I, I think that's
wonderful. Um, the problem is, uh, when you
(33:12):
talk that way, uh, there's still a lot of fluff there.
And, and that's what I mostly worried about. So, so simply
talking about, you know, let's make a difference in the world,
um, is not enough unless you
really figure out how, how some of these things
are, are happening. It's nice to speak
truth to power, but the problem is at the end of the day, you
(33:33):
may have the power, you may have the truth, and they still have, have the
power. Uh, and so I think a lot
of what we're doing, not only in progressive theology,
but even in progressive activism, is
precisely, uh, that kind of thing, uh,
where uh, we
have some good sensitivities, we want to do the
right thing, uh, we want to activate people,
(33:56):
uh, but we're not really building the kind of
power it takes to transform anything.
So in, in, in the organizing world, you know, this is the
difference that people talk about, uh, in terms of mobil
versus organizing. And so when I said a moment
ago, you know, uh, most well meaning
sermons don't do a whole lot well, maybe they mobilize
(34:16):
people to some degree, you know, get them out there, get them off
their seats, that's good, better than staying
seated. Uh, but they don't uh,
organize more deeply. Uh, where we're building, you
know, we're analyzing what are we up against,
building solidarities, building
long lasting, uh, not just
movements, but also ways of life,
(34:39):
ways, uh, of thinking, you know, ways, uh, of doing
theology that now, uh, don't
constantly have to be reminded
moralistically that they have to make a difference. They just
make a difference because they're done in,
in a different way. That's, that's what I'm hoping for. And
so theological location, then that
mobilizes people, that
(35:01):
moralizes people, that tells people
do this, do that, you know, or some
kinds of political correctness where people get really,
really nervous in the end, you know, am I saying the right
thing? Constantly feeling their own political,
religious polls, uh, all of that stuff,
um, it has its place,
(35:21):
don't get me wrong. I mean it's better than not caring about
these things. But oftentimes we make
ourselves so nervous, uh, and uh, in
the end nothing happens. I mean, we're not moving.
Um, and what I'm saying is, um.
Don't listen to me. I mean, this is not, uh, because Rieger said
it. Uh, but just analyze what's going all around
(35:41):
you. I mean, look at which movements are actually making a
difference and which aren't. Look at, uh, where
politics is actually, uh, getting some traction
and where it isn't. Uh, and then of course ask the
deeper questions of how do we build power if we don't
have it. What I'm saying here is certainly not
to make theological education look bad or,
uh, certain organizations. Uh,
(36:04):
I'm actually simply, uh, saying we could
deepen whatever we're doing at any point. Of course, that's true
for us too. You know, the question I'm raising here is
not, uh, to tell people we have figured it
out. Uh, and uh, that's all you ever need.
But, uh, we're sort of on the way to figuring out.
And we want to bring more people, more
organizations, more movements along.
>> Gabriella Lisi (36:26):
Your article concludes, um, by
stating that. That another world is not
only possible, but it's already taking shape.
What tangible examples have you witnessed
or studied or seen that showcase, um, this
transition? And where do you see the most
promise for positive change in this direction?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (36:49):
So this is why I, uh, although I'm a
theologian, uh, am always drawn back into
questions of economics and the economy.
Uh, and keep in mind the economy here is not some big
mysterious thing that, uh, some economists can control.
But it is something that we are engaged in
as breathing living beings, uh,
(37:10):
for most of our waking hours. So, I
mean, of course somebody once said, uh,
recently, uh, we're spending a third of our
life at work. Uh, so something to
be paid attention to. Right? Uh,
we're, uh, of course not able
to survive, to sustain ourselves, uh,
(37:30):
without work. I mean, this is why
in my new book Theology in the Casual Scene, in one
of the chapters, I think it's chapter three, I
talk about labor, uh, and productive and
reproductive labor as the ultimate concern.
Paul Tillich talked about this as ultimate concern
is the matter of life and death. Well, we would
(37:50):
not be here, uh, without, uh, people
providing for us for themselves, uh, and of course
people and uh, human and non human
nature here building things on which everything
rests. So for me, uh, the question where do I
look for alternatives? Is really where it is most deeply
embedded. Look at it this way. You know, for Christians,
(38:11):
sort of the otherworldly type, the more metaphysical
type, uh, most of reality plays in heaven.
Uh, and that's of course frustrating. Uh, most of our
students get it? Uh, that that's uh, way too
limiting. Whatever happens in heaven and not saying
nothing happens or we shouldn't care, um, they
then bring it into politics. They say, well, religion
(38:32):
and politics. Well, politics is important.
Unfortunately, politics too oftentimes
happens the level of the clouds, you know. And so
policy then gets made, which is good. You know, we need
policy. Uh, but nobody asks how does policy
get made. Uh, for the most part, uh, this
is where solidarity, uh, and
(38:52):
power shape up. You know, in Europe we have some more
progressive policies, uh, but these things can
always be turned back. You know, policy is something that's
always, uh, on thin eyes, uh, depending on,
you know, what's moving and what's shaking. So I'm looking
for alternatives where people are building
deeper powers, uh, that is related,
(39:12):
uh, to, uh, economic, uh, labor
processes. And that's where I think we have a lot
of reason to be hopeful. I mean, the labor movement,
even in the United States, is gaining some steam
that has its own limitations. I'm certainly no faint boy
here, but I'm saying, uh, look at who is
making a difference. Um, if people like
(39:32):
eight hour work days, weekends off work, uh,
end of child labor, protection for women at
work, protection for minorities at work,
all of that has been won by
the labor movement. Uh, in about 100 years ago, it
was the churches that were actually supportive of the
labor movement. Nobody remembers it, but everybody loves
(39:53):
to have a weekend of work. So how have
things been changed? You know, civil rights, how have civil
rights been one? You can say political processes,
but in terms of, uh, minority communities, you know, having
some economic power, some economic relevance,
uh, will definitely give you some political power. So
in the Wenland Cook program, this is the reason why we work with
(40:14):
labor and we also work with
worker co ops. Uh, that may be sort of the next step
because worker co ops, in my view, are uh, really
alternative entities where working people
now not only are the owners,
but they're also, uh, the ones who are able to
determine what gets produced, who gets it, you know,
what happens to profit. Uh, and all of a sudden,
(40:37):
uh, people get worried about capitalism a lot. You
say, well, here's your alternative.
This is capitalism turned on its head because
profit is no longer siphoned to the, but
appropriated by the many in the community. That's still a
process, uh, but that's something that is a
very powerful example for how life
(40:58):
can be lived and that has conclusions of.
Sorry. That has implications for politics,
that has implications for religion. So economic
democracy, something that most people are not even aware
could be an issue. Right? Economic democracy, the
place that's probably least democratic in our lives
now helps reach a reshape political democracy,
helps reshape religious democracy. Another place
(41:20):
that's also not so democratic for the most part.
Uh, and because I see that happening in worker co
ops, you know, network, not just one co op here and there,
but networks, labor movements.
And of course, uh, not just in the US but around the world,
a lot of things have been changed, uh, by
these dynamics. And what really strikes me, I'll
(41:41):
stop here, uh, but this is the striking thing, um,
when is the last time, uh, that
theologians, uh, you know,
philosophers, uh, people working with their
minds have ever paid attention to this stuff.
That to me is the striking thing. Why not pay a little more
attention, uh, and maybe do a little better work uh,
(42:02):
in your uh, intellectual endeavors.
And of course one could say the same thing about politicians, you know, one
half. When's the last time that politicians really
have taken labor seriously? Not just as you
uh, know, something that will rubber stamp
you and endorse you, but uh, actually
help you build a different kind of
culture, uh, that then uh, you know, can
(42:24):
fight all kinds of uh, top down
efforts to control us.
>> George Schmidt (42:32):
I think for our last question
I wanted to again look to a
little, a little line that you said and I think it
dovetails really nicely off of what you just said here
in response to Heller and
Rubenstein. You talk about again the
pie in the sky projects and
(42:53):
how, and even religious fantasies
that fail to engage the reality of uh, systemic
exploitation and extraction. And you go
on, you have a sort of but
moment. Here you go, but, but religion
can be as much part of the solution as
it is part of the problem. And
(43:14):
I'm wanting to focus on that first part of the sentence. Religion
can be as much part of the solution.
So can you say how, uh,
religion like sort of not necessarily theological
discourse or
theology in general, but how
religion itself can be, be as much
(43:34):
part of the solution as it is part of the problem.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (43:38):
Right. You know, ultimately it depends on what you mean by
religion. And uh, I think in this modern
era in which we find ourselves, you know, whether it's
modern or postmodern really doesn't matter. Uh, we
have privatized religion to
such a degree that it becomes sort of an after hours
thing, you know, that you do maybe on a Sunday or on a Wednesday
(43:59):
night, or uh, you know, we have
intellectualized it, uh, or, or you know,
in terms of doctrines, in terms of ideas, or
maybe spiritualized it in terms of, you Know, happy, uh,
feelings and, you know, personal connection to the
ultimate. Uh, when I say religion, I really
think about it, uh, as a way of life.
In the Book of Acts, the early Christians
(44:21):
are actually called the people of the way.
So they're not called the people of the idea or the
people of the happy feeling. But they're
the people off the way in the sense of, you know, they live
another way, they live another life. A very
practical thing. Uh, and to me,
that's where religion becomes most interesting. You
(44:42):
know, uh, it's a practice. Uh, it is
something that connects us, uh, with a broader community.
Human, uh, as well as other than human.
And that includes not just sort of, uh, you know, uh,
broadly nature and whatever else is out there, but
also the divine, uh, to a degree,
uh, that it reshapes lives. That's the
(45:02):
miracle, you know, uh, where something's, uh,
changed that is not supposed to be changed. You
know, in. In this modern era, you know, people
think, uh, everything is now controlled by
money and power. To such a degree, uh,
that nothing can ever be different. Um, what
interests me the most is, um, first
(45:23):
of all, that's not true.
And secondly, uh, how does it shape up differently?
So I'm very interested then in
investigating, analyzing, almost like
an empiricist, studying what
is going on, uh, in some of these
alternative communities. And I think we have plenty of
examples. Uh, in, uh, the early
(45:45):
days of Latin American liberation theology.
Everybody was always talking about the base community.
And that was a powerful thing. You know, there was something happening.
Uh, not as powerful now, but
all of a sudden you see some of these things
emerging from Pentecostal communities,
uh, that were not supposed to emerge there. You know, they
(46:05):
were not supposed to move somehow to the left and
build worker solidarity. Evangelicals, you
know, around the world are still doing that too. So,
uh, that's the sort of stuff. I mean, when, say,
religion here. And for us. This is why
in the Wenland Cook program. We're doing this work with the Solidarity
Circles. Solidarity circles, for people that haven't
(46:26):
heard about them, put, uh, faith communities,
individual faith communities together with
projects of the Solidarity economy.
The basic idea is that, uh, there's a mutual,
uh. Not only inspiration, uh, but also sort
of transformation, uh, where
solidarity economy projects reshape
religion. Religion contributes something that's valid, valuable
(46:48):
too. Together they grow. But
make no mistake, this then, is
an alternative religion that's very different from the dominant
religiosity. And it's an alternative
way of doing business that's very different from the dominant Way
of doing business.
>> Gabriella Lisi (47:09):
Jorg, thank you so much for joining
us. We're going to have to have you back on, on to hear more
about the Wenland Cook program and all of the work
you've done over the past 30 years. But, um, thank you so
much for, for joining with us today.
We usually ask a question, um, and
what's something that gives you hope? Is that right, George?
>> George Schmidt (47:29):
What makes you angry and what gives you hope?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (47:32):
Yeah, there's a lot of things that, that make you angry. But, uh,
I think, um, you know, I, I summarized this somewhere
in terms of, uh, you know, the idea of empire, which
is the conglomerate of powers that want
to shape all your life. This is not just an economic
or a political or religious problem. Uh, it is
some, uh, dominant developments, uh, that
(47:53):
really want to reshape us to the core, uh,
not just as human beings, but sort of the planet as
a whole. Uh, and I think, um, that has
to be seen, that has to be addressed. Uh, there's
a huge danger in Germany, uh, in
1933-1945. We're talking
about fascism, whatever it is now, uh,
we have to watch out for it. I think there's a conglomerate of powers,
(48:16):
uh, and, uh, it's a conglomerate because it's not just
one person or one party or one development.
Uh, watch out for that. Uh, what makes me hopeful is that there
are alternatives emerging as we speak.
So there's people building alternatives. And
I'm really, uh, these days very interested in what
alternatives are built rather than simply in what is
(48:36):
protested. Uh, but, uh, worker
cooperatives for me is really something
that has to be explored a lot more and that
has. Worker co ops have a long
tradition in the US that goes all the way back, uh,
and all the way forward. Uh, there's African American
co ops, um, Collective Courage is a
book that describes the history of African American co
(48:59):
ops. Uh, in, uh, going forward, I
think this is where we can look at what young people are doing,
uh, what minorities are doing, what immigrants are
doing when they're building power. Uh, and that's where I'm
looking for the divine for religion embodied.
Uh, and I'm finding some encouraging results. So
I'm actually quite hopeful.
>> George Schmidt (49:20):
Thank you, Jorg.
>> Gabriella Lisi (49:22):
That brings us to the end of our conversation with Dr. Jorg
Rieger. His insights into the profound connections between
ecological and economic exploitation and the call
for deep solidarity offer a crucial framework for
understanding and addressing the complex challenges we face
today. Dr. Rager's work reminds me, reminds
us that the struggles for economic justice and environmental
(49:43):
sustainability are not separate but deeply
intertwined. His concept of deep
solidarity provides, uh, a powerful lens through which we can
understand our shared struggles and begin to imagine
and build the resilient alternatives necessary
for a just future. We encourage you to
read Dr. Rieger's article it's linked in the description
below, and to engage with the ongoing work of the when
(50:05):
the Cook Program in Religion and Justice. It's
through these kinds of dialogues and actions that we can begin
to create the transformative change that our world so
desperately needs. Thank you for joining us on
another episode of Religion and Justice. If you found
our discussion valuable, subscribe, rate and review
the podcast. Your support is essential in helping
(50:26):
us continue to bring these crucial conversations to a
wider audience. Stay connected with
us on social media for updates on future episodes and
events. We'll be back soon with more discussions at the
intersections of faith, class, labor, and
ecology. Until then, I'm, um, one of your hosts,
Gabby Lisi, and the path to justice is one
we navigate together.
>> Nicole Diroff (50:59):
Hello again Climate Changed listeners.
Thank you for tuning in for this special
episode of the Climate Changed
Podcast.
Here at the BTS center, we are talking about
and living into spiritual leadership
for a climate changed world all the time.
(51:22):
This episode of the Religion and
Justice Podcast that we chose to
share with you highlighted the
importance of understanding economic
power structures in this Climate changed
work. I'm grateful for the Wendland
Cook Program's ongoing study and
pursuit of, uh, solidarity economies.
(51:46):
Check out their programs, including Solid Solidarity
Circles for faith leaders@, uh,
religionandjustice.org
that's religionandjustice.org
what fresh ideas did this conversation
stir up in you? How does
this conversation connect with your work
(52:07):
in the world? I would love to hear
from you. You can leave us a
text or a voice message at, um.
207-200-6986.
Again,
207-200-6986.
You can also email us at ah
(52:29):
podcasthebtscenter.org
that's
podcasthebtscenter.org
the Climate Change Podcast is produced by
Peterson Toscano and is a project of
the BTS center in beautiful Portland,
Maine. Learn more about our uh, research
projects, our in person and
(52:52):
online programming, and our
many
collaborators@thebtscenter.org
Peace all.
>> Gabriella Lisi (53:03):
Right.
Hello, friends. I am Nicole
Dehroff and you are listening to
Climate Changed, a podcast about
pursuing faith, life and love
in a climate changed world. The
Climate Changed Podcast is a project of the
BTS center, an organization
focused on spiritual leadership for
(00:23):
a climate changed world.
Collaborations and relationships are vital to the
work we do here at the BTS Center.
So today we are sharing a podcast episode
produced by one of our partner
organizations. In a moment, you will hear
(00:44):
an episode of the Religion and Justice
Podcast. It is hosted by
Gabriella Lisi and George
Schmidt. Their podcast
explores the intersections of class,
religion, labor and
ecology. It is a project
of the Wendland Cook Program in Religion
(01:05):
and justice at Vanderbilt Divinity
School.
We were introduced to Wendland Cook
through one of our BTS center research advisors
who was working closely with both organizations.
She said the two of you need to know
(01:28):
one another. We take those
comments very seriously.
So many of our program partnerships
are rooted in a comment just like that one
in this podcast. Partnership and Exchange.
We are grateful for the opportunity to share
some of the Wendland Cook Center's work.
(01:55):
This episode of the Religion and Justice podcast
is titled Deep Solidarity
and Moralizing. I hope you
enjoy the show.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (02:26):
You have to reach out to your.
>> Gabriella Lisi (02:27):
Friends who think they are making it.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (02:30):
Good and get them to understand
that they, as well as you
and I, cannot be free
in America or anywhere ah
else where there is capitalism
and imperialism until we
can get people to recognize
(02:52):
that they themselves have to make the
struggle and have to make the fight for
freedom every day in the year,
every year until they win it.
Thank you.
>> Gabriella Lisi (03:08):
Welcome back to Religion and Justice, the podcast of the One and
Cook Program in Religion and justice at A.H. vanderbilt
Divinity School. I'm one of your hosts, Gabby Liese,
and today we're honored to have with us a
distinguished scholar whose work has significantly shaped the
conversation around the intersections of religion,
economics and ecology. Joining us
(03:28):
again is Dr. Yor Greger, the Cal Turner
Chancellor's Chair of Wesleyan Studies and Distinguished
professor of Theology at Vanderbilt Divinity School.
He's also the founder and director of the Wendland Cook Program
in Religion and justice, the very program that
sponsors this podcast. Dr. Rieger has
long been a leading voice in connecting the dots between theology,
(03:49):
social justice and economic systems. His
work continually challenges us to rethink how we
understand the role of religion in the struggles for
justice. In his recent article, part of his
ecology series, Response to intervention
series on, um, ecology, economics and religion,
Dr. Rager explores the deep connections between the
(04:09):
exploitation of people and the exploitation of the
Planet. He introduces us to the concept of
deep solidarity, which emphasizes the
interconnectedness of various forms of exploitation,
whether related to class, race, gender
or ecology, and the urgent need to build
resilient alternatives to these oppressive systems.
(04:30):
Today we'll discuss how these ideas are being put into practice
and what they mean for the future of theology, religious
communities and social justice movements.
Without further ado, let's get into it.
In the article, you referenced deep solidarity, a term
you coined yourself along with Rosemarie and
(04:52):
Gold Rieger. Could you provide for our audience
an overview of what you mean by deep
solidarity and how deep
solidarity differs from a more conventional notion
of solidarity?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (05:06):
This morning I read somebody, uh, who
was talking about solidarity is our moral
imperative, saying we must be
in solidarity, uh, and so on and so forth.
Certainly it's better to be in solidarity than not,
but I don't think it's strong enough. I mean, whatever that moral
imperative is, uh, you know, it can always be
(05:27):
ignored, and people can always go
back behind it. And morality, in the end,
leaves you tired, you know,
trying to be a nice person and a good person all the time.
So. So deep solidarity is sort of a bit of a remedy
to that. It's not saying we must do this and we must do
that. It's not even sort of a recipe for
activism. Uh, it takes us back,
(05:50):
thinking about, uh, our deep connections. This is the
deep point. You know, we're connected at some level.
Uh, and of course the system doesn't want us to know it, right?
So take working people. Uh, the system is actually
playing working people off against each other.
University is a great example. You know, everybody's sort of against
everybody else without realizing that
these folks actually have something in common. What
(06:13):
is it? Uh, well, in some ways, uh,
minimally, it is, uh, that
they're all exploited and contributing
to the profit and power of the system at some level.
So that type of solidarity, uh, you
know, by the way, I find this in the Apostle Paul.
I know I quote him a lot here, uh, but let me
(06:33):
do it one more time. Uh, First Corinthians 12, verse
26. If one member suffers,
all suffer together with it. It's, uh, not the moral
imperative you ought to be suffering. But, uh, you
know, the unions, uh, put it differently. The labor
unions, they say, an injury to one is an
injury to all. That's your solidarity. Realize
that's what's happening to the least of these. It's.
(06:56):
Use some other, uh, gospel language here, Jesus
language. Uh, what's happening to the
least of these is Happening to
the rest of us, at least the 99%, the
1%, uh, they have their ways of, uh,
making sure they're fine. They do all kinds of things to make sure
they're fine. But the 99%, by and large, this
is not an Olympics of oppression to say we're all equally
(07:19):
worse off. But, um, what ties us
together is the fact that one member
is hurt, uh, all are hurt. This is, by the way,
the ecological principle too, right? Uh, if
people are exploited, uh, well, guess what?
The planet is being exploited also, which puts
us together in a type of
(07:39):
solidarity that's much deeper than somebody
telling you you ought to be in solidarity. Now
that thing then, this is the beauty of. It
doesn't, uh, depend on sameness. It doesn't
depend primarily on ident entity or who you
are or belonging, all that stuff that's
fashionable these days. Uh, it, it belongs
on a pretty clear analysis of
(08:02):
what are we up against, what's putting us in
this same boat. And then of course, the beauty of it, once you
realize it, uh, then you can employ
your resources to fight back. Now you can do something
to make a difference and then solidarity becomes
active. So whatever is that foundation here,
building on that, you know, now people say,
(08:23):
well, if we're up against,
you know, say, an economy, a
culture, a religion, uh, that is
ultimately exploiting us and down the road
killing us, uh, we now can work together
using what we got to do it. Uh, so this is a
great way then of working intersectionally because
(08:44):
a white Walmart worker and a black Walmart
worker, um, they have some
inbuilt solidarity, even though of course
Walmart doesn't want them to see it. Right. Uh, as does
you, university professor and an adjunct professor. This is the
sort of stuff we don't want to talk about, as does,
uh, you know, an immigrant auto worker and a
non immigrant auto worker, uh, as does a
(09:06):
human being, uh, you know, and,
um, the trees that are outside
of my window, uh, because if global warming sort
of kills us all off, uh, we may have
something to fight, uh, alongside each
other, where the tree doesn't have to become me and I don't have to
become a tree, but we got something to bring to the table.
(09:27):
Uh, one more thing is important here. Since we're talking
religion, I mean, want to make sure
everybody understands that we're of course doing
social analysis here. We're looking at the economy, at
culture, at politics. But
I'm a theologian, so I want to talk theology and
religion, uh, in connection to all of it so
think about interreligious conversations, dialogue
(09:49):
that now works on the basis of this,
of the solidarity, uh, where
say the Christian and the Muslim realize, uh,
they're after all of us, uh, they're basically
exploiting us, uh, however they can.
And by working together, uh, we can make a difference.
Now the point then is not
(10:11):
identifying similarities or becoming more
aware, but bringing to bear in the
struggle what we can bring from our traditions.
And thereby of course you learn from each other, right? Uh, you don't
have to claim identities and similarity, uh,
but you certainly have a common interest now. And once
you work that out, Christian learn something about
(10:32):
Islam, the Muslim learn something about
Christianity. That is the way forward.
As I see it.
>> Gabriella Lisi (10:41):
You can't moralize your way out of oppression. It's going to
take, it's going to take quite a bit more than that.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (10:49):
I want to say, uh, today that may be
it. You know, let's not think we can moralize
or uh, you know, activistize
ourselves out of oppression by just
protesting a lot or being really, really mad
about something or doing more.
We need to look at the bigger picture. And here's
(11:10):
the thing I probably should mention too,
when we're talking about ecology,
a lot of people don't know this, but it was the oil companies
that invented the carbon footprint calculators,
uh, that a lot of well meaning people, including myself, used
to good effect. Not a bad thing to calculate
(11:31):
your carbon footprint. So not making light of that,
let's use carbon footprint calculators. But let's
also realize that uh, these things were introduced
by corporate interests, uh, that want
to deflect from the overall system,
uh, and then sort of put people into some moral
situation, some activist situation, uh,
(11:51):
where uh, they're ultimately fighting themselves uh,
instead of the dominant interests.
And that's the sort of thing I'm really uh, concerned about.
In progressive circles especially.
>> Gabriella Lisi (12:07):
There are companies that have produced glass bottles.
Back in the day before I was alive, they
switched from glass to plastic because it was cheaper
than pollution increased as a result.
City councils were getting really upset about
seeing basically like Coke and Pepsi bottles all
over their town, on the sides of the road, not
(12:28):
in trash cans, not being recycled. And so the
city councils were coming together. They went to the state
legislatures and then asked the states to go after
the, these corporations and ask them to basically stop making
these plastic bottles. The
corporation's response was to create
individual centered recycling
campaigns about how you should be recycling the
(12:50):
plastic bottles and it's your fault that
pollution is on the rise. It's your fault that the cities
look this way. Couldn't be us the ones producing
the trash. It has to be the individual.
Then they co opted a whole movement, flipped it on
its head, flipped the coin on,
(13:10):
and the communities that were being polluted and said it's actually your
fault. And I think that's what you're touching on here, Jorg, if
I'm not mistaken.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (13:20):
You know, a lot of these, uh, recycling
campaigns have been invented, uh, to make
people feel less bad about, you know, using
disposable products and so on.
>> George Schmidt (13:49):
There's a line that you say that these
alternatives exist and are flourishing and
growing is witness to the fact that something bigger is at
work. And this is the line that really got me.
This is where theologians might find God
and this reality, whatever else it may be called,
can actually be experienced in tangible ways.
(14:10):
Could you say more about that line?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (14:13):
Yeah, this is sort of, uh, the basic
theological principle that I've been pursuing
for many years now. Because I think
we're looking for God in all the wrong places. And this is almost
like a default notion, right? I mean, usually
when people look for God, it's almost like they look up in
the sky or somehow up to something higher,
right? Maybe it's not the sky, but the skyscraper
(14:36):
corner office up there, you know, or the big,
the big church steeples or all of that.
That's sort of almost the default notion, you know. Anselm
of Canterbury, uh, what is God?
Something, then nothing greater can be perceived.
Uh, and then of course, it really depends on what you mean by greater, right? The
great boss, you know, the great theologian, the great leader,
(14:57):
the great politician, the great president, you know,
uh, that sort of stuff. Uh, and I think this is, this is
really looking in, in the wrong places.
Here's a fun thing that you probably did not expect me
to say, but, uh, I'm a
Methodist, so, uh, deep down, you know, I'm a theologist.
>> George Schmidt (15:14):
I was not expecting you.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (15:16):
I know you were. And, uh, this is why I
tell.
>> George Schmidt (15:19):
You, of all the things you could have said, that was the one that I was not
expecting.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (15:23):
So, so here's the Methodist thing about this. Uh, and I,
uh, learned something I learned from John
Wesley, uh, you know, the father of Methodism. Of
course, I'm m an ecumenical Methodist. I'm also
interreligious, so don't get me wrong. But, uh,
there's a sentence that Wesley writes in his journal,
um, after some frustrations, it seems to
me, um, where he says religion
(15:46):
must not go from the greatest to
the least or the power would appear to
be of men. So religion must not
go from the greatest to the least
or the power would appear to be of men.
Uh, this was said in the 18th century. I think
it's the basic foundation of a lot of the critique.
(16:06):
I mean, not that people quote Wesley, but the sentiment
underlies a lot of the 19th century critiques of
religion that basically look at religion
as a projection, you know, as sort of a product of
humanity. Uh, but it usually is the product
of dominant humanity. And that's something
that's to be expected. You know, you have dominant religion,
(16:26):
uh, and all of a sudden, uh, you know, Jesus, well,
Jesus looks very much like Donald Trump. You know, there's
stuff out there now. You know, if you look at, you just Google
Jesus and Donald Trump. You have now, uh, these
artists, uh, making Trump and Jesus
look alike. You know, uh, that's of course extreme.
Uh, but you know, Jesus looking more and more like, uh, you
(16:47):
know, the dominant majority, uh, everybody knows, sort of
the light haired, blue eyed Jesus produced by
European Christian. And that's natural.
So that's what happens by default all the
time. Uh, what's interesting to me is once
you turn that around, uh, 20 years later, uh, after
Wesley realized that religion mustn't go from the greatest to the
(17:07):
least, uh, he says, um,
commenting on some Bible verse saying religion, uh,
goes from the least to the greatest. Uh, that's sort of the
Wesleyan insight here that religion actually
starts at the grassroots. And to
me that's the exciting thing. You know, this is not
religion as dominant projection, uh, but this
(17:28):
is religion emerging in
seemingly unlikely places, you know, where
nobody really cares to look. But that's of course the Christmas
story, right? This is where Jesus comes in, you know, from
the least to the greatest, uh, you know, goes the other way around.
Uh, this is where the apostles come in. You know, the
apostle Paul sort of, uh, was a guy who was
in and out of prison for most of his life because the
(17:50):
Roman Empire realized he was dangerous to the
concerns of the empire. You know, you look at
Moses, uh, same story, here's a kid that grows
up, a Hebrew kid, grows up in the Pharaoh's court
and then realizes, no, this is all wrong, uh, and
turns around, uh, and joins the liberation
movement. So, so religion here going from the bottom
up, uh, you know, the burning bush story is
(18:13):
precisely, uh, that, you know, God saying,
I have heard the cry of my people, I have
seen their misery. Uh, we're going to do something about it
now. Um, here's the Funny thing. I, uh,
think this is very important for theologians to
look at, but this makes you think about
miracles. Now, again, uh, that's the
(18:33):
second surprise, George, I don't think you
were expecting.
>> George Schmidt (18:37):
Well, after you said the Methodist thing, nothing's going to surprise me
now.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (18:40):
No, uh, the third thing is going to be an altar call. But,
uh, I'll leave that for the end.
But seriously, I mean, think about what is the miracle? You know,
I mean, Wesley is saying if the top
wants to do something, it gets it done. No
miracle here. Uh, Friedrich Landmark, by the way. Uh, that
was his 19th century interpretation of Christianity. Says
(19:02):
Christianity doesn't need miracles anymore
because in view of the great civilization, uh,
and the great power of the Western people, I mean,
this is actually in his book the Christian faith, around page
450, you can look it up. He
says, we don't need this stuff. Any miracle stuff we don't need.
I am telling you, uh, miracle stuff is precisely
(19:23):
that, uh, which comes out
of the cracks, out of the fissures, uh, that emerges
and builds a power, uh, that in the end
overcomes empire. I mean, this is powerful
stuff. This is the stuff that, uh, time and
again turns around history. And of course, I'm not fantasizing
here. I think this is the old, uh, you know, Exodus
(19:44):
story out of Egypt has its own limitations. I
don't want to make it too simplistic, but this is the
liberation stories. I mean, if you look at the U.S.
uh, the history of the U.S. you know, this is the liberation of
slaves. You know, who would have expected that? This is now
women's voting rights, uh, this is now the
labor movement, uh, all those kinds of things
(20:04):
that come seemingly out of nowhere.
Uh, but, um, present
a power that's ultimately bigger than all of us, and that's
the place to look for God. So that's sort of in a bit of
an involved way. Um, my,
my answer to your question, Uh, I, I think that's
fascinating. And that's something that keeps me
busy. Um, has kept me busy for
(20:27):
30 years. Probably I'll need another couple of
decades to figure it out. And I will not figure it out
in the end either.
>> Gabriella Lisi (20:35):
Your work emphasizes a lot about
privilege and power and the distinction that you identify between
the two. How would you say this distinction
contributes to a more nuanced understanding of
social dynamics? Um, especially in the
context of economic
inequalities, racial inequalities,
gender inequalities, etc.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (20:57):
At one level, this is a very simple distinction.
Uh, unfortunately, it's Totally overlooked. I mean, I
don't see it used, uh, in many
ways. Uh, so let me start with privilege.
Uh, I mean, privilege is pretty obvious, right? In our world.
There is white privilege, there's male
privilege, there's European privilege, American privilege,
you name it. Um, those things
(21:20):
I think, uh, especially in progressive circles, uh, we
have become more aware of. And I
think once you go down that rabbit hole, you know, you can really
look at a lot of, um,
privileged, um, things,
you know, uh, causes for, for that privilege,
uh, that, that are important to engage. So,
(21:40):
so when I now in, uh, a moment move beyond priv,
uh, but keep in mind that these things are
really important. Ah, we have to engage them. You know,
heterosexual privilege and so on,
um, you know, the privilege of
citizens versus immigrants,
all of that, uh, is quite important. Uh,
the problem comes when people confuse privilege
(22:03):
and power. And I think this is, this is usually
what happens in, well meaning progressive circles. I think
I see this in almost every church that has become aware
of its privilege. Because privileged people then that realize
their privilege think my privilege translates into
power. And it doesn't quite work that way.
Uh, so for white people to think that
(22:23):
white privilege, uh, turns into power,
uh, is really fooling themselves. Uh,
for black people to think that white people
turns into privilege, uh, is also, uh,
not helpful. Because then, uh, from the black
perspective, the hope is, well, if white people were
using their privilege to deconstruct whiteness,
(22:44):
um, that would then solve the problem. Uh, unfortunately
it doesn't. Uh, your privilege doesn't necessarily mean
that you can actually now overcome it, which is where
the power question comes in. Power is
something, uh, uh, to engage privilege,
uh, to subvert privilege, perhaps power is a different thing. So
think about white people now, white supremacy,
(23:04):
uh, the white majority, that sort of thing
of this white majority,
real power is really concentrated, uh, at
the top. Top right there is some people that
then of course combine white privilege and a
lot of money and a lot of power. Most white
people do not have this power. So this is why most
(23:25):
white people cannot turn off racism, which is
structural, and they cannot control it.
Somebody, uh, who has tremendous, uh, power and
influence, like a president, uh, very
effectively, of course, using privilege to build their
power. Uh, and of course their power then gets
built, uh, with the illusion that other white people share in
(23:45):
that power. This is why, you know, Trump, ah,
is so attractive because people think his power is our
power. Uh, but Trump's, make no mistake, Trump's power
is. Trump's power is not your power. Uh, it's actually
Built, uh, not only on subduing,
uh, all, uh, bipoc people, right, uh, uh,
non white people. It's also built on
(24:06):
subduing, uh, uh, most of all white people, because
they're fooled by not distinguishing
privilege and power. So once you said that, uh, uh,
and of course this power analysis is
somehow related to a class analysis, realizing
that racial privilege, gender privilege, and so on doesn't
translate into power, uh, necessarily, uh,
certainly not great power. Power means
(24:28):
to really do something that, you know,
changes the world. So you have that
distinction. Uh, and then I think, uh, the
question then becomes, for those of us who are
not the 1%, of course these are symbolic numbers,
maybe more than 0.1%. Or does that leave
us? How do we put privilege and power
together? How do we organize a different kind of
(24:51):
power that ultimately, uh, dismantles
things?
>> Gabriella Lisi (24:55):
This is your bread and butter, you know, and I wanted our audience
to be able to hear it from your
mouth. So I come from a
predominantly white town in rural America,
and it's a, It's a very poor town.
Um, and so, um, when I,
um, went off to college, by the grace of God,
(25:15):
I ran into a lot of folks who, who were a lot better
off, uh, than. Than my family was financially.
But this was around 2015,
2016, and that, that was really when a lot of
the Black Lives Matter was really
turning up. And so hearing that
because I was white meant that I had
privilege, which then translated into power, according
(25:38):
to what I was being told by
organizers, by teachers, professors, you know,
fellow friends, Whatever it was, it didn't make
sense to me because I had grown up on food
stamps. I had grown up going to, you
know, going to food pantries that were run
by churches because clothes were being donated to,
um, myself and my mother because we couldn't afford
(26:01):
clothes. Uh, and so hearing that I had all this
privilege and all this power didn't make sense to me.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (26:07):
This is very helpful, Gabby. Uh, what you're getting from that,
uh, is really a very destructive way of going
forward, because then it makes people feel bad who
have privilege. I mean, uh, obviously you have white privilege.
I do, yeah. I mean, you understand this, of
course. I know you do. Uh, but not having
this power and then having these two confused
(26:27):
then makes people with privilege sort of scratch their
head and say, well, somehow I have this privilege, but it's not
doing anything. Then either you
become frustrated, uh, or
worse, you know, angry, uh, pushback, you
know, um, but whatever,
you're not going to find a positive solution to it. Because, you
know, no matter how bad you feel, no matter how much
(26:50):
you confess to your privilege, uh, you're not really put
on a way of building, um, different
kind of power. And that's, that's my whole point by
distinguishing privilege and power, I'm saying, um,
power is really, um,
concentrated at the top. No matter how much privilege
is now, uh, you know, uh, a majority
thing perhaps. You know, white people are still in the majority in the
(27:12):
U.S. but power isn't, uh,
held by the majority now. Uh, the beauty
of it is now, uh, first of all, uh, not only do you
understand your own situation better, you now can say, well, how
do we build power differently? And you might realize
the fact that I don't have power and my
non white neighbor also doesn't have power
maybe brings us together. This is that solidarity I was
(27:35):
talking about earlier. There is a way of figuring out,
uh, we can build solidarities even,
uh, across different levels of privilege.
Uh, maybe one more thing about solidarity I didn't say
earlier because that's really important. So there's
this moralistic solidarity I'm not too excited about.
But then there's a right wing solidarity, uh,
(27:56):
which is tremendously damaging, which is all
built on the confusion of privilege, power.
So now solidarity means all white people
somehow because of their privilege, are in
solidarity. That's of course what the white nationalists
want us to do, to believe. Right, Patriotism,
uh, built, uh, you know, on, on sort of
nationality is the same thing. Making people
(28:18):
believe that, uh, all people of a certain
nation are now in solidarity,
male solidarity. You know, all men are
supposedly in solidarity. Uh, but that's of course
misleading. And so this white supremacist
solidari is not only,
uh, to conquer black people, it's really also
to conquer white people because it's suggesting
(28:41):
to people you have more in common, uh, with
a Donald Trump as a white person than
you have with your black fellow neighbor, you know, or the
person that works with you in the same job. Uh, and that's of
course a tremendous fallacy. That's not true. But
that's used by the dominant system to maintain
the dominant power. Fascism is the same thing, you
(29:01):
know, for Germans, my ancestors, my
grandfathers, to, uh, be told,
uh, you have more in common with Adolf Hitler because
you're a German, uh, than you have, uh,
with the French soldiers and the British
soldiers or, you know, whatever happened in
Africa. That's of course a tremendous fallacy that
did not help my grandfathers, um,
(29:23):
but, uh, that built fascism for
the few rather than a uh, system that helps to
many. So those are, um, intentional confusions
there to false solidarities that get
used to mislead people.
>> Gabriella Lisi (29:37):
Yeah, this was no accident.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (29:39):
One more false solidarity. Since we're talking
religion here. Religion functions like that too.
So people somehow now supposedly, uh, having
to believe that all Christians are in
solidarity against the non Christians, that's a
fallacy. Uh, because Christianity, of
course, when it is used for the purposes of
the dominant few, uh, is not, not
(30:02):
the Christianity of Jesus, you know, this is not the
Christianity of the majority. And so here
to, uh, making that distinction, uh, is
tremendously important.
>> Nicole Diroff (30:14):
I'm Jessica David, a divinity school student
and intern at the BTS Center. Lately,
I've been thinking a lot about spirituality.
How it shows up everywhere and shapes how we move
through the world. Maybe it's just me, but
it feels awfully complicated to be alive.
(30:37):
So for the next few months, I'm stepping behind the mic at, uh,
climate changed. I'll ask
the BTS Center's team some big,
messy and important questions,
like how do we hold grief and hope at the same
time? What keeps us open
when the world feels overwhelming?
(30:59):
Can small steps become radical leaps?
What is a good life?
What practices ground us, push us,
and help us claim our place in this moment?
And don't worry, it won't all be heavy. I promise we'll have
some fun along the way.
Join me for Climate Change behind the Scenes
(31:21):
edition. Let's explore this
complicated stuff together.
>> George Schmidt (31:44):
If we haven't gotten in trouble yet, I want to get us in trouble just
a little bit further by asking you a question about
your article. You say
many of us would agree that here is
too much pie in the sky in
religion, not only in the otherworldly
dreams about heaven, but also
in. And this is what, this is the part that I want
(32:07):
to ask you to say more about,
but also in some progressive,
idealistic imaginations. Could
you be more specific? What you were thinking of when you were talking about
some progressive, idealistic imaginations.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (32:23):
You're putting me in the hot seat, George.
>> Gabriella Lisi (32:25):
Uh, trying to get Jorg in trouble?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (32:29):
Uh, yeah, no, this is good. It's, it's a cold day here in
Nashville, so I, I, I don't mind being in the hot
seat. But seriously, I mean,
this is, this is, uh, this is a really important question.
Uh, and you know, to some degree, I would say it is the
bane of progressive theological education.
Uh, because, see, so many of our students come to
(32:50):
seminary and they say we're so sick and
tired of this pie in the sky. Religion. Religion
has to be applied in the world.
Religion is about the world. It's about, you know,
whatever we do, it's about material
things instead of just ideal things. Uh,
and that's all true. I mean, I, I agree with it. I, I think that's
wonderful. Um, the problem is, uh, when you
(33:12):
talk that way, uh, there's still a lot of fluff there.
And, and that's what I mostly worried about. So, so simply
talking about, you know, let's make a difference in the world,
um, is not enough unless you
really figure out how, how some of these things
are, are happening. It's nice to speak
truth to power, but the problem is at the end of the day, you
(33:33):
may have the power, you may have the truth, and they still have, have the
power. Uh, and so I think a lot
of what we're doing, not only in progressive theology,
but even in progressive activism, is
precisely, uh, that kind of thing, uh,
where uh, we
have some good sensitivities, we want to do the
right thing, uh, we want to activate people,
(33:56):
uh, but we're not really building the kind of
power it takes to transform anything.
So in, in, in the organizing world, you know, this is the
difference that people talk about, uh, in terms of mobil
versus organizing. And so when I said a moment
ago, you know, uh, most well meaning
sermons don't do a whole lot well, maybe they mobilize
(34:16):
people to some degree, you know, get them out there, get them off
their seats, that's good, better than staying
seated. Uh, but they don't uh,
organize more deeply. Uh, where we're building, you
know, we're analyzing what are we up against,
building solidarities, building
long lasting, uh, not just
movements, but also ways of life,
(34:39):
ways, uh, of thinking, you know, ways, uh, of doing
theology that now, uh, don't
constantly have to be reminded
moralistically that they have to make a difference. They just
make a difference because they're done in,
in a different way. That's, that's what I'm hoping for. And
so theological location, then that
mobilizes people, that
(35:01):
moralizes people, that tells people
do this, do that, you know, or some
kinds of political correctness where people get really,
really nervous in the end, you know, am I saying the right
thing? Constantly feeling their own political,
religious polls, uh, all of that stuff,
um, it has its place,
(35:21):
don't get me wrong. I mean it's better than not caring about
these things. But oftentimes we make
ourselves so nervous, uh, and uh, in
the end nothing happens. I mean, we're not moving.
Um, and what I'm saying is, um.
Don't listen to me. I mean, this is not, uh, because Rieger said
it. Uh, but just analyze what's going all around
(35:41):
you. I mean, look at which movements are actually making a
difference and which aren't. Look at, uh, where
politics is actually, uh, getting some traction
and where it isn't. Uh, and then of course ask the
deeper questions of how do we build power if we don't
have it. What I'm saying here is certainly not
to make theological education look bad or,
uh, certain organizations. Uh,
(36:04):
I'm actually simply, uh, saying we could
deepen whatever we're doing at any point. Of course, that's true
for us too. You know, the question I'm raising here is
not, uh, to tell people we have figured it
out. Uh, and uh, that's all you ever need.
But, uh, we're sort of on the way to figuring out.
And we want to bring more people, more
organizations, more movements along.
>> Gabriella Lisi (36:26):
Your article concludes, um, by
stating that. That another world is not
only possible, but it's already taking shape.
What tangible examples have you witnessed
or studied or seen that showcase, um, this
transition? And where do you see the most
promise for positive change in this direction?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (36:49):
So this is why I, uh, although I'm a
theologian, uh, am always drawn back into
questions of economics and the economy.
Uh, and keep in mind the economy here is not some big
mysterious thing that, uh, some economists can control.
But it is something that we are engaged in
as breathing living beings, uh,
(37:10):
for most of our waking hours. So, I
mean, of course somebody once said, uh,
recently, uh, we're spending a third of our
life at work. Uh, so something to
be paid attention to. Right? Uh,
we're, uh, of course not able
to survive, to sustain ourselves, uh,
(37:30):
without work. I mean, this is why
in my new book Theology in the Casual Scene, in one
of the chapters, I think it's chapter three, I
talk about labor, uh, and productive and
reproductive labor as the ultimate concern.
Paul Tillich talked about this as ultimate concern
is the matter of life and death. Well, we would
(37:50):
not be here, uh, without, uh, people
providing for us for themselves, uh, and of course
people and uh, human and non human
nature here building things on which everything
rests. So for me, uh, the question where do I
look for alternatives? Is really where it is most deeply
embedded. Look at it this way. You know, for Christians,
(38:11):
sort of the otherworldly type, the more metaphysical
type, uh, most of reality plays in heaven.
Uh, and that's of course frustrating. Uh, most of our
students get it? Uh, that that's uh, way too
limiting. Whatever happens in heaven and not saying
nothing happens or we shouldn't care, um, they
then bring it into politics. They say, well, religion
(38:32):
and politics. Well, politics is important.
Unfortunately, politics too oftentimes
happens the level of the clouds, you know. And so
policy then gets made, which is good. You know, we need
policy. Uh, but nobody asks how does policy
get made. Uh, for the most part, uh, this
is where solidarity, uh, and
(38:52):
power shape up. You know, in Europe we have some more
progressive policies, uh, but these things can
always be turned back. You know, policy is something that's
always, uh, on thin eyes, uh, depending on,
you know, what's moving and what's shaking. So I'm looking
for alternatives where people are building
deeper powers, uh, that is related,
(39:12):
uh, to, uh, economic, uh, labor
processes. And that's where I think we have a lot
of reason to be hopeful. I mean, the labor movement,
even in the United States, is gaining some steam
that has its own limitations. I'm certainly no faint boy
here, but I'm saying, uh, look at who is
making a difference. Um, if people like
(39:32):
eight hour work days, weekends off work, uh,
end of child labor, protection for women at
work, protection for minorities at work,
all of that has been won by
the labor movement. Uh, in about 100 years ago, it
was the churches that were actually supportive of the
labor movement. Nobody remembers it, but everybody loves
(39:53):
to have a weekend of work. So how have
things been changed? You know, civil rights, how have civil
rights been one? You can say political processes,
but in terms of, uh, minority communities, you know, having
some economic power, some economic relevance,
uh, will definitely give you some political power. So
in the Wenland Cook program, this is the reason why we work with
(40:14):
labor and we also work with
worker co ops. Uh, that may be sort of the next step
because worker co ops, in my view, are uh, really
alternative entities where working people
now not only are the owners,
but they're also, uh, the ones who are able to
determine what gets produced, who gets it, you know,
what happens to profit. Uh, and all of a sudden,
(40:37):
uh, people get worried about capitalism a lot. You
say, well, here's your alternative.
This is capitalism turned on its head because
profit is no longer siphoned to the, but
appropriated by the many in the community. That's still a
process, uh, but that's something that is a
very powerful example for how life
(40:58):
can be lived and that has conclusions of.
Sorry. That has implications for politics,
that has implications for religion. So economic
democracy, something that most people are not even aware
could be an issue. Right? Economic democracy, the
place that's probably least democratic in our lives
now helps reach a reshape political democracy,
helps reshape religious democracy. Another place
(41:20):
that's also not so democratic for the most part.
Uh, and because I see that happening in worker co
ops, you know, network, not just one co op here and there,
but networks, labor movements.
And of course, uh, not just in the US but around the world,
a lot of things have been changed, uh, by
these dynamics. And what really strikes me, I'll
(41:41):
stop here, uh, but this is the striking thing, um,
when is the last time, uh, that
theologians, uh, you know,
philosophers, uh, people working with their
minds have ever paid attention to this stuff.
That to me is the striking thing. Why not pay a little more
attention, uh, and maybe do a little better work uh,
(42:02):
in your uh, intellectual endeavors.
And of course one could say the same thing about politicians, you know, one
half. When's the last time that politicians really
have taken labor seriously? Not just as you
uh, know, something that will rubber stamp
you and endorse you, but uh, actually
help you build a different kind of
culture, uh, that then uh, you know, can
(42:24):
fight all kinds of uh, top down
efforts to control us.
>> George Schmidt (42:32):
I think for our last question
I wanted to again look to a
little, a little line that you said and I think it
dovetails really nicely off of what you just said here
in response to Heller and
Rubenstein. You talk about again the
pie in the sky projects and
(42:53):
how, and even religious fantasies
that fail to engage the reality of uh, systemic
exploitation and extraction. And you go
on, you have a sort of but
moment. Here you go, but, but religion
can be as much part of the solution as
it is part of the problem. And
(43:14):
I'm wanting to focus on that first part of the sentence. Religion
can be as much part of the solution.
So can you say how, uh,
religion like sort of not necessarily theological
discourse or
theology in general, but how
religion itself can be, be as much
(43:34):
part of the solution as it is part of the problem.
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (43:38):
Right. You know, ultimately it depends on what you mean by
religion. And uh, I think in this modern
era in which we find ourselves, you know, whether it's
modern or postmodern really doesn't matter. Uh, we
have privatized religion to
such a degree that it becomes sort of an after hours
thing, you know, that you do maybe on a Sunday or on a Wednesday
(43:59):
night, or uh, you know, we have
intellectualized it, uh, or, or you know,
in terms of doctrines, in terms of ideas, or
maybe spiritualized it in terms of, you Know, happy, uh,
feelings and, you know, personal connection to the
ultimate. Uh, when I say religion, I really
think about it, uh, as a way of life.
In the Book of Acts, the early Christians
(44:21):
are actually called the people of the way.
So they're not called the people of the idea or the
people of the happy feeling. But they're
the people off the way in the sense of, you know, they live
another way, they live another life. A very
practical thing. Uh, and to me,
that's where religion becomes most interesting. You
(44:42):
know, uh, it's a practice. Uh, it is
something that connects us, uh, with a broader community.
Human, uh, as well as other than human.
And that includes not just sort of, uh, you know, uh,
broadly nature and whatever else is out there, but
also the divine, uh, to a degree,
uh, that it reshapes lives. That's the
(45:02):
miracle, you know, uh, where something's, uh,
changed that is not supposed to be changed. You
know, in. In this modern era, you know, people
think, uh, everything is now controlled by
money and power. To such a degree, uh,
that nothing can ever be different. Um, what
interests me the most is, um, first
(45:23):
of all, that's not true.
And secondly, uh, how does it shape up differently?
So I'm very interested then in
investigating, analyzing, almost like
an empiricist, studying what
is going on, uh, in some of these
alternative communities. And I think we have plenty of
examples. Uh, in, uh, the early
(45:45):
days of Latin American liberation theology.
Everybody was always talking about the base community.
And that was a powerful thing. You know, there was something happening.
Uh, not as powerful now, but
all of a sudden you see some of these things
emerging from Pentecostal communities,
uh, that were not supposed to emerge there. You know, they
(46:05):
were not supposed to move somehow to the left and
build worker solidarity. Evangelicals, you
know, around the world are still doing that too. So,
uh, that's the sort of stuff. I mean, when, say,
religion here. And for us. This is why
in the Wenland Cook program. We're doing this work with the Solidarity
Circles. Solidarity circles, for people that haven't
(46:26):
heard about them, put, uh, faith communities,
individual faith communities together with
projects of the Solidarity economy.
The basic idea is that, uh, there's a mutual,
uh. Not only inspiration, uh, but also sort
of transformation, uh, where
solidarity economy projects reshape
religion. Religion contributes something that's valid, valuable
(46:48):
too. Together they grow. But
make no mistake, this then, is
an alternative religion that's very different from the dominant
religiosity. And it's an alternative
way of doing business that's very different from the dominant Way
of doing business.
>> Gabriella Lisi (47:09):
Jorg, thank you so much for joining
us. We're going to have to have you back on, on to hear more
about the Wenland Cook program and all of the work
you've done over the past 30 years. But, um, thank you so
much for, for joining with us today.
We usually ask a question, um, and
what's something that gives you hope? Is that right, George?
>> George Schmidt (47:29):
What makes you angry and what gives you hope?
>> Dr. Joerg Rieger (47:32):
Yeah, there's a lot of things that, that make you angry. But, uh,
I think, um, you know, I, I summarized this somewhere
in terms of, uh, you know, the idea of empire, which
is the conglomerate of powers that want
to shape all your life. This is not just an economic
or a political or religious problem. Uh, it is
some, uh, dominant developments, uh, that
(47:53):
really want to reshape us to the core, uh,
not just as human beings, but sort of the planet as
a whole. Uh, and I think, um, that has
to be seen, that has to be addressed. Uh, there's
a huge danger in Germany, uh, in
1933-1945. We're talking
about fascism, whatever it is now, uh,
we have to watch out for it. I think there's a conglomerate of powers,
(48:16):
uh, and, uh, it's a conglomerate because it's not just
one person or one party or one development.
Uh, watch out for that. Uh, what makes me hopeful is that there
are alternatives emerging as we speak.
So there's people building alternatives. And
I'm really, uh, these days very interested in what
alternatives are built rather than simply in what is
(48:36):
protested. Uh, but, uh, worker
cooperatives for me is really something
that has to be explored a lot more and that
has. Worker co ops have a long
tradition in the US that goes all the way back, uh,
and all the way forward. Uh, there's African American
co ops, um, Collective Courage is a
book that describes the history of African American co
(48:59):
ops. Uh, in, uh, going forward, I
think this is where we can look at what young people are doing,
uh, what minorities are doing, what immigrants are
doing when they're building power. Uh, and that's where I'm
looking for the divine for religion embodied.
Uh, and I'm finding some encouraging results. So
I'm actually quite hopeful.
>> George Schmidt (49:20):
Thank you, Jorg.
>> Gabriella Lisi (49:22):
That brings us to the end of our conversation with Dr. Jorg
Rieger. His insights into the profound connections between
ecological and economic exploitation and the call
for deep solidarity offer a crucial framework for
understanding and addressing the complex challenges we face
today. Dr. Rager's work reminds me, reminds
us that the struggles for economic justice and environmental
(49:43):
sustainability are not separate but deeply
intertwined. His concept of deep
solidarity provides, uh, a powerful lens through which we can
understand our shared struggles and begin to imagine
and build the resilient alternatives necessary
for a just future. We encourage you to
read Dr. Rieger's article it's linked in the description
below, and to engage with the ongoing work of the when
(50:05):
the Cook Program in Religion and Justice. It's
through these kinds of dialogues and actions that we can begin
to create the transformative change that our world so
desperately needs. Thank you for joining us on
another episode of Religion and Justice. If you found
our discussion valuable, subscribe, rate and review
the podcast. Your support is essential in helping
(50:26):
us continue to bring these crucial conversations to a
wider audience. Stay connected with
us on social media for updates on future episodes and
events. We'll be back soon with more discussions at the
intersections of faith, class, labor, and
ecology. Until then, I'm, um, one of your hosts,
Gabby Lisi, and the path to justice is one
we navigate together.
>> Nicole Diroff (50:59):
Hello again Climate Changed listeners.
Thank you for tuning in for this special
episode of the Climate Changed
Podcast.
Here at the BTS center, we are talking about
and living into spiritual leadership
for a climate changed world all the time.
(51:22):
This episode of the Religion and
Justice Podcast that we chose to
share with you highlighted the
importance of understanding economic
power structures in this Climate changed
work. I'm grateful for the Wendland
Cook Program's ongoing study and
pursuit of, uh, solidarity economies.
(51:46):
Check out their programs, including Solid Solidarity
Circles for faith leaders@, uh,
religionandjustice.org
that's religionandjustice.org
what fresh ideas did this conversation
stir up in you? How does
this conversation connect with your work
(52:07):
in the world? I would love to hear
from you. You can leave us a
text or a voice message at, um.
207-200-6986.
Again,
207-200-6986.
You can also email us at ah
(52:29):
podcasthebtscenter.org
that's
podcasthebtscenter.org
the Climate Change Podcast is produced by
Peterson Toscano and is a project of
the BTS center in beautiful Portland,
Maine. Learn more about our uh, research
projects, our in person and
(52:52):
online programming, and our
many
collaborators@thebtscenter.org
Peace all.
>> Gabriella Lisi (53:03):
Right.
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