The Bible and Climate Change with Kyle Meyaard-Schaap and Peterson Toscano

Episode Transcript
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Ben Yosua-Davis (00:00):
Ben yosua Davis, you are listening to

(00:03):
climate changed, a podcast aboutpursuing faith life and love in
a climate changed world, hostedby me. Ben yosua Davis, climate
change features guests whodeepen the conversation while
also stirring the waters. Theclimate changed podcast is a
project of the BTS center. YouWhat on earth does the Bible

(00:24):
have to do with global warming?How could this ancient text be
used responsibly to help usapproach difficult contemporary
issues? The topic of thisepisode is the Bible and climate
change. Derek Weston fromcreation justice Ministries is
here to help me with thesequestions and more. Derek, it's
so good to have you with us,especially being the host of the

(00:47):
green lectionary podcast, whichtalks about Scripture and
ecology all the time. Derek,what else do you want our
listeners to know about you?Well,

Derrick Weston (00:56):
first, I'm really glad to be here, glad to
have this conversation with youbefore I started with creation
justice ministries, a lot of mywork was around the intersection
of food and faith. So I come toecological conversations with
food, sort of as a lens of a waythat we connect with creation.
That's a lot of where, whereI'll be coming from.

That sounds wonderful and kind of delicious.
Maybe we'll have some extrarecipes in our show notes by the
end of our time together. Sowe're talking about scripture
this episode. So I thought Iwould ask you a question about
one of the sets of modern sacredstories, the superhero. Derek, I
know you're a geek like I am. Sowho's your favorite superhero

all time? Favorite superhero is Spider
Man. Nice. I love that for mostof the run of spider man, he has
been awkward and failing at reallife while doing his superhero
gig, that he has been bad atlove, that he has been bad
member of his family, that hehas been mostly broke and then

(01:57):
managing all of that whiletrying to go out and Fight Crime
and stop supervillains fromdestroying the world. And I love
the with great power comes greatresponsibility, kind of as a
mantra. So Spider Man hasalways, always been my guy.

I'm a big fan of him, both the Peter Parker
and the Miles Morales versions,absolutely. I wanted to actually
take this moment to speak up forthe one of the least appreciated
of all Marvel Superheroes, whichis Doreen green, also known as
the Unbeatable Squirrel Girl.

Kyle Meyaard-Schaap (02:27):
Have you read? Have

you read Squirrel Girl?

I have, I have read a couple of comics where
she features where, where shehas been alongside the Avengers,
or something of those of that.But not just her, her own solo.

Okay, so let me, let me pitch you and all our
listeners on why she is thebest. She is a Marvel superhero
with the proportional strengthand speed of a squirrel. She
goes along with her sidekick,tippy toe, who's a squirrel,
they, quote, eat nuts and KickButts while going to college and
learning computer science. Sothe comics are utterly
hilarious. She uses her logicand computer science principles

(03:03):
as often as our superpowers todefeat bad guys. And I
appreciate in these moments whenwe're dealing with really heavy
issues, it is just the sunniest,most intelligent comic that you
can possibly leave. It's like aray of Marvel sunshine in your
dark universe. So the UnbeatableSquirrel Girl is always, is
always, absolutely my hero.

I will, I will throw in just if on this, on a
similar vein, Moon girl anddevil dinosaur, also just
incredibly endearing Marvelcomic of this young black girl
who is the smartest person inthe Marvel universe, who is
often accompanied by a big reddinosaur as she saves the world.

In each episode of climate changed, we provide a
space for us to clear our headsfrom the busyness of the day and
center ourselves. Beverly G Wardleaves the grounding in this
episode. Beverly is the fieldsecretary for Earth care for the
southeastern yearly meeting ofthe religious society of

(04:19):
friends. She assists monthlymeetings and worship groups and
projects and activities thatpromote care for the earth,
linking their efforts with thewider Quaker world. Beverly has
been serving in this role since2016 She is also the CO clerk of
Quaker Earth care witness, andworks with the Quaker United
Nations Office beyond her Quakerwork, she is part of the bond

(04:42):
geverly theatrical troupefacilitates alternative to
Violence Project workshops andteaches cultural and applied
anthropology at the Universityof South Florida. Beverly, we
are honored to have you with ustoday. You.

Beverly G. Ward (05:01):
I have this piece that I talk about, and
it's not original. It's borrowedfrom a play. The play is the
Project Hope, by Katherinebanks, and is from the 2017
climate change theater action.And I'm often reminded of this

(05:24):
line. Now tell me your firstmemory of the natural world.
And when I first read that, Ithought about, ah. Growing up in
the southeast, we get stormsthat you can see from a

(05:50):
distance. And as a kid, Iremember racing the storm down
the street, what comes back tome is the smell of the Earth,
the red clay and the hotpavement and the joy of just
running with my friends. That isprobably not my first memory,

(06:14):
but it's a favorite one toreturn to, and just being with
water and earth and friend,think of your first or earliest
or happiest memory being in thenatural world. What smells? Is

(06:36):
there a breeze on your face? Isthere water? How about the
ground? Are you barefoot? Areyou in grass, sand? What are you
touching with your fingers?You're carrying that place with

(06:57):
you all the time. I invite youto visit it whenever you like.

Thank you. Beverly,
our producer, Peterson Toscanoalso produces Citizens Climate
radio. For one of his episodes,he chatted about the Bible in a

(07:30):
conversation that he had withKyle mayard scop the executive
director of the Association fora more just society us, Kyle
brings a rich background inreligious studies to the table,
holding a bachelor's from CalvinUniversity and a master's of
divinity from WesternTheological Seminary. He's also
an ordained minister in theChristian Reformed Church in

(07:53):
North America.

Over the past 10 years, Kyle has dedicated
himself to educating andmobilizing the Christian
community worldwide. His focusto confront the climate crisis
as a crucial part of their faithand commitment to loving their
neighbors.

Kyle's work has gained national and
international recognition withfeatures in PBS, NPR, CNN, NBC,
news, the New York Times,Reuters and US News and World
Report. His book following Jesusin a warming world, published by
InterVarsity press in February2023 offers a Christian
perspective on climate action.

Outside of his professional life, Kyle enjoys
family time with his wife,Alison, and their two sons in
Grand Rapids, Michigan,

joining Kyle for the conversation on climate
change in the Bible is climatechanged producer, Peterson
Toscano, in addition to his rolewith this show, he is the host
and producer of other podcasts,including citizens, climate
radio, Quakers today and bubbleand squeak

Peterson Toscano (09:01):
when you meet somebody and they ask, so what
do you do? What's your go toanswer these days?

Yeah, I wear a few different hats, but I
think my favorite go to answeris a pastor who works to help
the church recover its callingand responsibility to care for
God's creation. I have a almostfive year old. He'll be five in
a couple weeks, and a 14 monthold. They keep us very, very

(09:31):
busy. I say us, because anotherimportant part of my identity is
I'm a husband. Been married tomy wife for almost 10 years.
There are some

identities that some Christians think might
disqualify someone from being anactual Christian. For instance,
for some you know, being aliberal you can't be a liberal
and a Christian, or others sayyou can't be an ultra
conservative and be a Christian.And a lot of evangelical. Might
think you can't really be aChristian if you're an

(10:03):
environmentalist or if you'reconcerned about climate change.
So my question is, Are you areal Christian? And why? How is
that possible?

It's a great question. Yeah. So one of
the things that I like to dosometimes, if I'm giving a
presentation at a church or to agroup of Christians, is, I like
to ask them, What do you callsomebody who cares about the
environment? It's an opportunityfor people to kind of name what
you just named. So you getanswers like, tree hugger,

(10:35):
environmentalist, liberal, andit's great we kind of, we're
kind of laughing, we're rolling.And then I say, great answers.
What about disciple? Let peoplename those perceptions that a
lot of them have, and thentrouble it and say, okay, great,
those are all fine answers. Butcan we call somebody who cares

(10:59):
about the environment or God'screation. Can we call them a
disciple? Is it possible that afundamental part of what it
means to follow Jesus isactually to care about the works
of His hands and to recognizethe ways in which environmental
harm and degradation andpollution and climate change,

(11:20):
all of the things that aredegrading God's good creation
not only harm non humancreatures, but also humans. And
is it possible that this callthat Jesus puts on all of us to
love God and to love ourneighbor is inseparable from how
we treat the rest of creation?Because we're going to love God
who created all things andstepped back and called it good

(11:41):
over and over again, and whostill loves and cares for it and
provides for it, we have to carefor the works of His hands and
do what He said in Genesis,which is to serve and protect
it. And if we're going to loveour neighbors, we have to
grapple with the realities thatare harming our neighbors around
the world and down the street,things like stronger storms,

(12:03):
more prolonged, protracteddroughts, wildfires, pollution
from industry and setting fossilfuels on fire. All of these
things in my mind, areinextricably wrapped up with
what it means to try to followJesus well and put into practice
what he said was most important,which was to love God and to

(12:23):
love our neighbor. I certainlydon't do this work because I
consider myself a quote, unquoteenvironmentalist. And I don't do
this work because I'm a Democrator a Republican. I do this
because I'm a Christian. Jesusis the reason that I do the
climate work that I do. I'm justtrying to get better at
following him, because that'sthe most important thing in my

(12:44):
life. Likewise, my faith hasbeen enriched and deepened
immensely by my climate work andmy climate action, the task of
evangelizing the good news ofJesus and the good news of the
kingdom of God has to be infleshed. It has to be concrete.

(13:08):
It has to be active. It has tobe a verb. And it it can't just
be praying with somebody, thesinners prayer and then saying,
congratulations, you said themagic words, now you're in the
kingdom of heaven. It has to bedeeper than that. It has to
connect to people's real lives,because that's what Jesus did.
He was impatient for the kingdomof God to break in, right here,

(13:29):
right now.

I love that impatient for the kingdom of
God. That's awesome. When Ifirst became a Christian, at a
little Bible Church in a littletown in Pennsylvania, everyone
kept asking everyone, what'syour life verse? And at first I
had no idea what they weretalking about. Like, what? What
do you mean? Like your lifeverse, like one to guide you
through your life. And mine haschanged through the years,

(13:53):
depending on where I'm at, but Idefinitely have a climate life
verse. What I love about theBible is it can apply to lots of
things, and that can be doneinappropriately, and it can be
done very movingly. And so forme, my climate life first these
days is Romans, 12, one and two.I beseech you, therefore,
brethren, by the mercies of God,to present your bodies a living

(14:16):
sacrifice, holy acceptable toGod, which is your spiritual
service, and be not fashionedaccording to this world, but be
transformed by the renewing ofyour mind that ye may prove what
is the good and acceptable andperfect will of God. The part
that really jumps out at me isto not be fashioned according to

(14:39):
this world. I find that life hasgotten more and more detached
from nature, and we noticed thisparticularly during the
pandemic, when we were able toreconnect with nature in so many
ways. You know, in the world,it's like we're being told that,
you know, we're apart fromnature, that we. Can go into

(15:00):
nature. And really, what I'mhearing as I'm sitting and
listening is that I am natureand and I have to be transformed
by renewing my mind to see thatI'm not outside of this
ecosystem. I'm reliant upon it.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Peterson, thanks for
sharing that

any life verses or climate life verses
you'd like to share. One of

my favorite climate verses is from
Colossians, 115 through 20. Heis the image of the invisible
God Christ, the firstborn of allcreation. For in Him, all things
in heaven and on earth werecreated, things visible and
invisible, whether thrones ordominions or rulers or powers,

(15:46):
all things have been createdthrough him. And for him, he
himself is before all things.And in Him, all things hold
together. He is the head of thebody the church. He is the
beginning, the firstborn fromthe dead, so that he might come
to have first place ineverything. For in Him, all the
fullness of God was pleased todwell. And through him, God was

(16:09):
pleased to reconcile to himselfall things, whether on earth or
in heaven, by making peacethrough the blood of his cross.
I love so many things about thatpassage, but one of the things I
love most is this repetition ofall things, all things, all
things, all thing. It's over andover in that passage, and I

(16:32):
think it's, it's Paul trying toget our attention and trying to
undo that anthropocentrism thatI just talked about, it's not
that, you know, Christ createdhumans only, and in him, humans
hold together. No all thing thatChrist is concerned about, all

(16:53):
things, that everything was madefor him, not for us and for our
personal use, and this idea thathe's reconciling all things to
himself, not just human heartsand human souls, which tends to
so often be the focus of of ourgospel, but everything, somehow,
all of heaven and earth is boundup in God's saving sites. The

(17:15):
whole ball of wax when it comesto God's rescue mission was
about turning the invisiblevisible, right? You think about
the incarnation. It was takingthe invisible God and making him
visible like God. God is allabout making himself visible to

(17:36):
his people, whether it's throughChrist in the Incarnation,
whether it's in the bread andthe wine of communion, whether
it's in the waters of baptism orthe the pillar of cloud and fire
that led the Israelites out ofbondage into freedom, whether
it's the temple or thetabernacle. Like God, God is an
invisible God, but he's allabout making himself visible and

(17:57):
coming close to his people.

You echoed so much of what Reverend Tony
Campolo said when I interviewedhim for an episode here on
Citizens Climate radio. He wrotea book back in 1992 how to
rescue the earth withoutworshiping nature, a Christian
call to save creation. And boy,he's so fiery about this and so

(18:23):
fiery about our responsibilityas believers, that it is a call
you wrote the book followingJesus in a warming world, a
Christian call to climateaction.

It's part memoir, it's part theological
Biblical Studies, and it's partfield guide. I especially wrote
it for millennials and Gen ZChristians, because a lot of it
was born out of conversationsthat I had when I was at young
evangelicals for climate action,traveling the country talking to
young Christians. I especiallywanted that audience to feel

(18:59):
seen, to feel validated, to betold, No, you're not crazy. Yes,
this is central to our call tofollow Jesus and to give them
tools for how to do it. I wantedto read from my Epilog. This was
me trying to offer a hopefulvision to close the book, about

(19:20):
what I think it might look likefor the church to wake up again
to its calling to care for God'screation, to lead the way. I
structured the Epilog as aletter to my imagined grandchild
on her high school graduationday. So it's dated May 22 2066

(19:48):
on the day you were born, Ispent a lot of time ruminating
on your future, an old habit, Iguess I picked it up around the
time your dad was born, backthen the fierce storms and
punishing. Feet that have beentaken for granted during your
life were just beginning tobreak through into our reality.
For much of my life, to thatpoint, they had been mostly

(20:09):
abstractions, dangerousoffspring of our inaction that
would one day grow up and moveout of the house to wreak their
havoc on the earth, butinnocuous enough, as they merely
gestated in the womb of ourcollective ignorance and denial
by the time your dad was born in2018 though, the consequences of
our procrastination werebecoming harder and harder to

(20:30):
ignore. There were some our age,even then, who were choosing not
to have kids, deciding that thefuture was too dangerous, too
unpredictable, to be able tomorally justify yoking a human
life to it for decades to comewithout that human's prior and
informed consent, a sentimentyour grandma and I could
certainly understand, they'llnever quite embrace. I guess our

(20:52):
hope in God's good plans for theworld has always been more
stubborn than our fear of ourability to derail them. That
doesn't mean the fear hasn'tbeen there, ever mingling with
the hope on the day your fathercame into the world, that alloy
of hope and fear was forged andlodged deep in my heart for good
as a paradox to loving othermortals, that even as your heart

(21:16):
remains fixed in your chest, itstwin beats inside someone
else's, you watch your ownhearts mirror as it jumps and
laughs and aches. It's aphenomenon that repeats itself
whenever we make the dangerous,awesome choice to love. All
these years, as my own fearfulheart has pumped dutifully

(21:39):
inside my aging chest, it hasreplicated itself as first your
dad and his siblings were born,and then again, when you and
your siblings and cousins allentered this precious,
precarious place. All of my dearones,

you do something so important in
writing this letter, and I it'ssomething that I think is very
helpful for all of us to do whodo climate work, and that is to
imagine a future where there'ssuccess. Yeah, it would be so
easy to write a letter ofapology for all the ways we
didn't do it, but it takes a lotof creativity and determination

(22:22):
to imagine a world wheresolutions change things. And I
believe this is something uniquethat believers bring to the
climate movement. We believe inforgiveness and redemption, new
life and miracles. We believethat hearts and minds can

(22:43):
change, and we have experienceof it, and the gift that we can
bring this movement is hope, andhope grounded in reality, of
course, but hope that thatsustains us because we do
believe in impossible things.

I mean that there is in there a note of
apology, because we have failed,right? We should apologize.
Yeah, we have things. We havethings to apologize for, but we
don't have to live there. Thebiblical structure of hope is
instructive there, and I likewhat you said about hope
grounded in reality. I'vestudied scripture in seminary,

(23:21):
and that's kind of my trainingand my background, and
especially in the Psalms. Whenyou look at the formula of hope
for the ancient Hebrew people,it was always lament moving into
hope, but you could never get tohope without lament. You had to
go through lament first. Wecan't stay in lament, but there
has to be a role for lament witha movement toward hope, if hope

(23:44):
is going to be authentic andbiblical and meaningful.

Anything else you want to add about your book
about climate change and faith?I

think we covered it. Yeah, this is a
great, great conversation.

Thank you. Feel like I was at church, like
a good church, a good church,

not just church, not just church, a

Unknown (24:11):
good one. You
music.

Thank you, Peterson, so much for sharing
the conversation you had withKyle with us. Derek, as I was
listening to Kyle and Petersontalk, they both shared a life
verse that really grounds theirenvironmental work. I'm curious,
do you have a life verse thatgrounds and frames the work that
you do I do?

And it's actually kind of a cliche I'm
finding in some of the Christianclimate circles, but it's Romans
818, to 25 Paul says I can.Consider that the sufferings of
this present time are not worthcomparing with the glory about
to be revealed to us. For thecreation waits with eager
longing for the revealing of thechildren of God. For the

(25:09):
creation was subjected tofutility not of its own will,
but by the will of the one whosubjected it, and hope that the
creation itself will be set freefrom its bondage to decay and
will obtain the freedom of theglory of the children of God, we
know that the whole creation hasbeen groaning in labor pains
until now, and not only thecreation, but we ourselves, who
have the first fruits of theSpirit grown inwardly while we

(25:31):
wait for adoption, theredemption of our bodies. For in
hope, we were saved. Now, hopethat is seen is not hope for who
hopes for what is seen, but ifwe hope for what we do not see.
We wait for it with patience.And I actually encountered this
passage when I was in seminary.I was taking a course from a
Franciscan school on socialjustice, and we were doing a

(25:53):
segment on environmentalism, andthis text showed up in the
lectionary for Easter. And Iconnect some dots started
connecting in my head. And thequestion that formed from from
those dots connecting was, whatif the life, death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ wasfor more than humanity and for

(26:15):
all of creation and creation,which is groaning and so that
that passage has grounded a lotof my environmental work. How
about, how about, for you Ben,do you have, do you have a life
verse?

I was thinking a little bit about this, and I
have one that kind of comes inthe side door, and there's
actually a story I have that'sconnected with it. It's acts 17,
verse 28 where Paul says, For inHim, we live and move and have
our being. I was thinking aboutthis because there's a
conversation I had with my sonand my daughter at the dinner

(26:48):
table three or four months agowhere they've begun to ask
questions about God, which is somuch fun. So my son says to me,
so is God in the universe? And Isaid, Well, yes, and the
universe is in God. And he'slike, what the universe is in
God? And I quoted this passageto him. I'm like, Yeah, you
know, in Him, we live and moveand have her be so God is in you

(27:08):
and you're in God. So he goes,like, so God is in everything,
and everything is in God. Isaid, yep. So he's like, so
wait, this chair is in God, andthis chair, so we continue in
this line of conversation forlike 10 minutes with both my
children naming objects in theroom and asking with greater and
greater delight, like, the pianois in God and God is in the

(27:32):
piano. And then Michael has thismoment my son, he goes, Wait, so
God is in God, who's in God,who's in God? That's what we
call the Trinity. And he like,goes, Ah, so excitedly. And
after dinner, he was like, thatwas the best conversation ever.

(27:55):
The reason why I think aboutthis is there was a point in my
life when I thought aboutenvironmental justice as another
good cause that I was supposedto do something about as a good
person. And what I've come torealize is that caring for my
other creaturely kin is aboutcaring for the image of God that
is present in everything, thatit is fundamentally spiritual

(28:18):
work, and that it'sfundamentally relational work.
The environment is not an otherthat I am doing good things for,
but they are my kin who I needto care for and love, and I have
found that to profoundly reframethe way I think about what the
climate crisis is and what itmeans for me as a Christian to

(28:39):
care for creation the way I carefor my family.

I love that. I also kind of love the Russian
doll image of God,

yep, oh, it was a, it was a, it was kind of an
amazing it was kind of anamazing moment when you see how
Christian theology can blow themind of an eight year old. It
was really pretty incredible. Inoticed too, how when both of us
are talking, we talk about thissense of integration when it

(29:14):
comes to environmental justice.This was one thing I actually
also really loved about whatKyle was talking about. So he's
saying, you know, I'm, I don'tcare about the environment
because I'm a tree hugger. No,no shade on all of us who are
tree huggers, by the way, butbecause I'm a Christian, so like
Jesus is the reason I do this.I'm curious for you, Derek, both

(29:36):
for yourself, and I know youwork with lots of people as I
do, who are trying to connectthe dots between the practice of
their faith and what it means tocare for creation. Like, what
does it mean to care forcreation in light of a
commitment to follow Jesus aspart of our faith identity?
Rather than as I was saying, Iused to feel like this is

(29:56):
another good thing that goodpeople should do something
about. So.

Yeah, I think this is a huge question, and for
me, I go back to Genesis toanswer it, and our and the first
two creation stories, and therole that humanity plays in
those stories. The firstcreation story, God creates all
the things and they're good, theland and the stars and Sun and

(30:24):
Moon, and it's good, and thewater and it's good, and the
insects, and they're good, andthe fish are good, and birds are
good, and the land animals aregood. And then God creates
humanity. And the way that weoften hear this is God created
humanity, and humanity was verygood. And that's not what the
scripture says. The scripturesays that God looked at all that

(30:47):
God had created, and it's calledthat very good. And to me, it's
us living in right relationshipwith the rest of the creation,
that's the very good part. Andthen I jump over to the second
creation story, and God createsAdam from the adamah. So it's

(31:08):
the soil, and gives Adam thistask. And the task we often
interpret a lot of Englishtranslations, is to keep and
till the earth. But a lot ofHebrew scholars will tell us
that that's not the those aren'tthe best translations of those
verbs. The best translations areprotect and serve, that the

(31:33):
original human's original taskwas to protect and serve
creation. And if we go back tothat task and that a lot of the
imagery of what it looks likewhen we are rightly restored at
the at the end of time, I go toMicah four, this idea of

(31:57):
everyone having their own vineand fig tree, of of swords being
beaten to Plowshares of lionsand lambs laying together, that
we're again in that harmoniousrelationship with creation. And
I think that if we are, if we,if we imagine that as the as
both the beginning and the goal,then the idea is, how do we get

(32:20):
back to those beginning occupvocations that God gave to us.
How do we get back to thoserelationships that were very
good at the beginning in aculture that is so separated
from nature, get back to thosevery good relationships, and I

(32:41):
don't think we have to stay inthe Hebrew scripture for that.
When we look at Jesus on hislast night with his disciples,
compared his own body and bloodto bread and wine, I note that
he didn't say, wheat is my bodyand grapes are my blood. The

(33:01):
divine image is found in theseelements of creation that have
been worked by human hands. AndI find that incredibly
captivating, and that there'sthe opportunity for Christ to be
known in the right relationshipof creation and humanity,
there's so much inspiration tobe found in that there's so much

(33:23):
hope for that, and there's somuch challenge to be found in
that it's very much not a sideproject of my faith. It's very
much not a an option for me as aChristian. It's very much deeply
integrated to my idea of what itmeans to follow Christ. As

you say that, I'm just reminded a lot of
Wendell Berry talking about whatit means to steward land. And
you know, how much land shouldyou have, the amount of land
that you can keep and care for?Well,

yes, in this interview, I think one of the
ideas that comes across is theidea that scripture, all of
Scripture, is sort of anecological text, and not just
few verses. And Ben, I'minterested in hearing your
thoughts on what does it meanfor scripture, all of Scripture
to be an ecological text, andnot just those verses that we've

(34:17):
picked out as as the kind oflife verses for ourselves. Well,

I know Derek, this is an area where you've had
a lot of a lot of practice withyour podcast and the like. But
you know, the thing thatunlocked this for me was
realizing the ways in whichthose who wrote scripture, for
whom these were first theirsacred texts, lived with a
completely different worldviewthan my modern mechanistic

(34:41):
worldview. And then when youlook at it through that lens,
you go, Oh, my goodness, this isall like about the relationship
between people and God and theland. It's written through
everything. It's things like, Iremember growing up like the
story of Balaam and his donkey,which I think is one of the most
hilarious. Text in theScripture, if you take it

(35:02):
seriously, then you've got tobelieve that donkeys can
communicate, and they can seeangels when humans can't, and
they are actually able to obeyGod, even when their human
masters are really mean to them.And when I went and went, Oh,
what if I was to take all these,these texts about nature, and

(35:22):
assume that they actually metwhat they said, rather than all
being poetic flourishes, like,what if the trees of the field
actually were clapping theirhands? That wasn't just a nice
poetic flourish, you know? Whatif, when Jesus talking about the
rocks crying out, like the rocksactually did cry out, rather
than that just being a funlittle, a little bit of
hyperbole that Jesus put onbecause he's a good speaker, but

(35:42):
we all know rocks don't actuallydo that. Taking the Bible
seriously on its own terms,it's, it's almost unavoidable.
Yeah,

yeah, I totally agree. And one of the people
who's been really helpful for mein thinking about this is Dr
Ellen Davis and her book,scripture, culture and
agriculture. Yeah, I love herwork. For anyone who's
interested in exploring thistopic more deeply, I would
definitely recommend that book.It's fun that in my work now,

(36:13):
I've gotten to meet a lot of thepeople whose work has meant a
lot to me, and I've gotten tospend a little bit of time with
Dr Davis recently on one of ourretreats that we were running in
in North Carolina, she made thisstatement, which seems so
obvious and yet was so profound,which is that our culture is the
furthest away from the cultureof the Bible, and that's not

(36:36):
just in terms of chronology, butthat's also in terms of our
technology, our mindsets and ourdisconnection and understanding
of the natural world. I'mtotally with you. Ben like once
you start to see it, theprophetic texts are written
about abuses of agriculture andpeople occupying land that is

(36:59):
not theirs, so often in in thescriptural text, the health of
people and the health of landare deeply interwoven when you
just see that there is natureeverywhere that Jesus was
preaching primarily in agrarianparables, and Once you see it,

(37:21):
you can't unsee it. It's one ofthose things that just becomes
so a part, so deeply a part ofof your reading of Scripture.
And for me, it then kind offorces my hand, as a person
living in 21st century America,to go, how can I understand

(37:41):
Scripture better? If I'm stayingindoors and sitting at screens
and keeping myself detached fromnature again, Wendell Berry is
probably right here that weshould be reading scripture
outdoors.

We got chickens this last year, and all of a
sudden I understand exactly whatthe phrase is, pecking order, or
don't count your eggs beforethey hatch. Mean where it's
like, I hadn't thought aboutpecking order is literally the
way that chickens organizethemselves. You know, we got we
blended two flocks together, andthere was a lot of pecking and
they're now kind of figuring outwho belongs where. And I

(38:21):
actually find it's very similarwith scripture. I was reading
the psalm talking about thefields being jubilant and the
trees of the forest clappingtheir hands because God was
coming with judgment to judgethe earth. I had this moment
when I went, Oh, what if thetrees in the fields have their
own agendas and their own waysthat they're crying out for
justice, and I'm on the wrongend of all of that. In fact, I

(38:44):
have a feeling we are fartheraway from the culture of the
scriptures than maybe any othergeneration before. I know,
certainly, as a white maleWesterner, I certainly feel like
I'm in that position. And theremay be a sense that we
occasionally, I have thisunsettling feeling like I might
be the bad guy in the stories,wondering, how does that play
out in my understanding ofwhat's happening in the world

(39:06):
today, that like God's outadvocating on behalf of the
trees? Yeah, it's bothenergizing, but it's also highly
unsettling as well.

Yeah, that's one of the things. When you read
scripture from the from theperspective of creation. We are
not the good guys. We are notthe heroes. And it forces us to
ask questions like, How do I getback on creation side? How do I

(39:38):
get back on the side thatcreation? You know, where, where
I can, you know, say, Yeah, Iwas, I was with the birds the
whole time. The rest of youguys, I, I was listening to the
birds. But it's, but it's also,you know, one of the other
pieces of, of, of this, and thishas come out in our work on the.

(40:00):
Green lectionary is that werecognize that, you know,
creation is everywhere, andcreation often gets caught up in
the sins of humanity. I I'mstruck by it, and I just can't
stop thinking about it rightnow, the text of the crossing of
the Red Sea, and as as thepeople and and the people of

(40:23):
Israel make it through the RedSea, the waters of the Red Sea
come down. And even in theircelebration, they the people of
Israel, mentioned that the horseand the rider fell into the sea.
And like, what does it mean thatthe horse was co opted by the
Empire, and the horse had tosuffer the consequences of what

(40:46):
the people of Egypt did. Andlike I and how often have we
brought creation into themechanizations of empire? And
like when we we talked aboutthat text on on the on the
podcast, and I have been hauntedby that thought ever since. It

(41:08):
continues to really unsettle me.I

hear a lot of conversations about the common
good, but I wonder what happensto our definition of the common
good when we think this is notjust about other humans, but
this is actually about our otherthan human kin as well. What
would it look like for us tothink about common good and
include the trees and the andthe cows and the chickens packed

(41:34):
in, packed in cages and and therivers that are polluted, noting
that oftentimes, when we seekthe common good of one, we end
up seeking the common good ofall because all abuse is
inevitably tied together.

Yeah, yeah. It really forces us to change our
perspective from the sort ofbinary zero sum. One group wins,
one group loses to a more mutualunderstanding of ourselves in

(42:07):
community as humans, but alsoourselves in community that
includes our non human brothersand sisters. And can that what
it's what it's going to take,unfortunately, is what I think
it's taking now is that we'restarting to see the real human

(42:28):
effects of what it means forcreation to be out of balance.
We're starting to see the realhuman effects of extreme heat in
the summers. We're starting tosee the real human effects of of
drought and of famine, ofextreme storms. I have also been
working with with churchesaround these issues around

(42:50):
climate change. And you know, sooften churches feel so ill
equipped to have theseconversations. And they want the
science. You know, they want,they want to have all of the
data and the facts. And I andscience absolutely is important
to this conversation, but Ialways try to encourage people

(43:10):
don't, don't forget theresources of the church. Don't
forget the resources of ourtheology, of our scripture, of
our tradition, and how much thatcan speak into the ecological
crisis, and the fact that it canspeak into the ecological crisis
in a way that no otherinstitution in our culture can.

(43:31):
Yeah, let's not forget that theBible, the Bible. You know, as
much as we read the Bible, theBible reads us, and when we open
our eyes to see scripture adifferent way that you know it's
going to bring those things thatwe are concerned about to the
surface, because it's all there

and serves as a mirror. I've noticed that
oftentimes, what sometimes mycolleagues or my seminary
professors would name asproblematic as the Bible would
be the things that perhaps theywould most honestly name as
problematic about themselves andtheir culture, and the Bible is
such a ruthlessly honest mirrorabout our human condition.

One of the things that I found really
compelling in this interview wasthe way was was Kyle reading the
Epilog of his book. And in ithe's, he's having this future
conversation, you know. And Iwas so I was so one. I was
jarred by him having like, thisvery precise date in the 2060s

(44:36):
of when his grandchild would befinishing, would be graduating
from high school. But it alsomade me think a little bit about
like, what are the conversationsthat we want to be able to have
with our future loved ones, bothour kids and our grandkids,
about the work that we do, aboutthe work that we're doing? We

(44:59):
had

one. These conversations with my son over
the dinner table, which isclearly the place you have,
clearly, that's conversation.Clearly, yeah, and he's asked a
lot of questions, you know,asking questions about my work
around climate and, you know,we've had to talk about some
really hard things with them.And he said, so, like, if all
this happens, what will we do?And what I said is, you know,

(45:21):
we'll do what we've always done,we'll love each other, we'll
show hospitality to ourneighbors, we'll pray, we'll
love the land. Nothing thathappens has to change who we are
and what we do. And for me,that's the through line is, how
am I acting now in a way thatactually it doesn't matter Win,

(45:45):
lose or draw in the future, whathappens? I can feel like this is
a place I can stand on inintegrity, and for me, that's
what hope is about. Hope is notabout outcome. It's about
meaning in Scripture. Hope isrooted in suffering. That's the
then Romans talks about this.The start of hope is not
optimism. The start of hope isis suffering, and how we respond
to suffering. And for me, I donot need to see a good outcome

(46:09):
to all my work to believe thatit's meaningful. And so when I
think about writing from thefuture, I don't want to
prognosticate and pretend thatmy hopeful vision of the future
has to mean that everything'sworked out. My hopeful vision of
the future is that I've lived alife of deep meaning and
integrity, regardless how it'sworked out. I

love what you said about hope, man, I love
what you said about hope, thatit's not so much about outcomes,
and we really got to get ourvisions of hope away from the
idea of outcomes and that hope,in and of itself, is a value and
a virtue, whether or not itproduces the better world that

(46:53):
we long to see in our lifetime.Hope to hold on to, hope to
nurture hope, to to to resistcynicism, to resist apathy, what
that does in ourselves, whatthat does in our own spirits, I
think, is, is invaluable and andso to do that work of of

(47:18):
creating, upholding hope, Ithink is absolutely crucial for
us.

I love that, and that sounds like a wonderful
next step, the embodiment ofhope, entering into refugia. One
of the things that we like to dois offer you, our listeners, a
chance to think about what yournext steps might be, in response
to the conversation that we'vehad today. So I'm going to offer
one to start with, and for thoseof you who are interested in

(47:46):
doing as Derek mentioned,Wendell Berry suggested reading
scripture outdoors, I wouldencourage you to engage in the
practice called Lectio Terra.This is a way to be in
conversation with God, Scriptureand land. It's a process that
finds its inspiration and theancient practice of Lectio
Divina, and takes 20 to 40minutes spent outdoors in a
place that you choose. You canfind a guide at the BTS Center's

(48:09):
leadership Commons for that, orjust click on the link in the
show notes and have a chance tohave a conversation with God in
Scripture and land together.Derek, I'm curious, are there
any next steps that you mightwant to offer our listeners as a
result of this conversation.

Yeah, as I've said, food was kind of my on
ramp to some of these largerconversations about climate. And
I think that food can be a greaton ramp for a lot of people,
because it's we all have to eat,and therefore it means that we
all can do something. And thething that I would encourage
people to do is to shorten thedistance that your food travels.

(48:45):
And there's lots of ways to dothat. You know, I kind of lean
back on this mantra of Know YourFood and grow your food. Meet a
farmer. Meet a farmer. Go ifyou're the odds are you're not
that far from a farm. We wesometimes put them in sort of
invisible places. But you're,you're likely not that far from

(49:06):
a farm, even in cities, andespecially in cities nowadays,
that you can meet a lot of greaturban farmers who are doing
amazing work. Meet a farmer andsupport them. Support them with
your dollars. Yes, you may pay alittle bit more, you may end up
paying less in the long run whenyou think about the cost towards
your health. And I would alsosay one of the profound ways

(49:30):
that you can shorten thedistance between your you and
your food is to grow things.Grow what you can if that's just
herbs in a window sill, do thatif that's a tomato plant, go for
it, and, and, and for the loveof God, Please resist the urge
to say, I don't have a greenthumb. There is no such thing as

(49:52):
a green thumb. I have had thisconversation with so many
people. Do you know how manyplants I kill? I. There's no
such thing as a green thumb. Youyou plant a lot of seeds, and
you nurture the ones that comeout of the ground and and you
continue to learn and grow.Humans have been growing things

(50:16):
for 10,000 years. You can find athing that you can grow. So I
would, I would just say, youknow, as a really practical
step, think of the ways that youcan shorten the distance that
your food has to travel.

I love that. Thank you so much, Derek for
reminding me that my thumb is,in fact, green, along with
everyone else's. And with somemore suggestions for us, is Anna
Baron, one of the producers ofthis season of climate changed.

Anna Barron (50:43):
Thanks, Ben, that was a great reflection that you
and Derek made on theconversation between Kyle and
Peterson. I super enjoyedlistening to that. I'm here with
a few more invitations for youour listeners. The first is to
organize a climate Sunday foryour church. This can be a
variety of different things.Usually it means that the

(51:05):
service is climate centered. TheSermon addresses something about
climate change, and there's anopportunity for members of the
church to commit to climateaction. I will link a website in
the show notes with examples ofclimate Sundays so that you can
get started on planning your ownnext I would love to invite you
to discuss a Bible story thatyou find relevant to climate

(51:27):
change with a friend. Askyourselves what feelings come up
and how can that story helpground you both in climate
action. If you want to take thisone a step further, I suggest
posting on social media aboutyour conversation and inviting
friends to do the same. Lastly,I want to invite you to commit
to doing one seasonal climaterelated program this year. For

(51:50):
example, there's the Lent carbonfast. This was started by an
organization in the UK calledClimate stewards. If you sign up
for their program during Lent,they will email you some goals
and ways you can reduce yourcarbon footprint. I suggest
getting three friends to joinyou, so that there's some
accountability. If you do any ofthese next steps, please feel

(52:11):
free to share them with us or onyour social media so that your
friends can engage as well asalways. There's no pressure to
do all or any of these nextsteps. We just want these to be
a resource for you as you figureout ways to engage in this huge
and overwhelming topic. Back toyou. Ben,

thank you, Anna,
thank you so much for joining ustoday for this episode of
climate changed podcast. Andthank you, Derek, for joining
me. Derek, what are the bestways for people to follow you
and learn more about your work?Yeah,

on all of the socials. I am Derek. L, Weston,
D, E, R, R, I, C, K, L, W, E, S,T O, N. You can find me any of
those, those places you canfollow creation justice, at
ministries, creationjustice.org, you can also find
us at creation justice on mostof the socials, and you can
subscribe to the greenlectionary podcast. Anywhere you

(53:09):
get your podcast, you can findus.

And I also understand that you give talks
and presentations. Yeah,

I love to talk to churches about connecting the
dots between our work aroundcreation, justice and theology.
So happy to do that anytime.Love to talk about food justice
and the ways that we I believethat food is our most intimate
connection to creation. So loveto talk about those sorts of
concepts. And I had a book thatcame out recently called the

(53:35):
just kitchen invitations tosustainability, cooking
connection and celebration foryou. Listening, Ben told me that
you can get involved indiscussion we had today. What's
your life verse that calls youto care for creation. Leave a
voice message to share it. Areacode, 207-200-6986, and we may

(53:57):
feature it on a future episodeor share your answer in an
email. Email address is podcastat the BTS center.org

Yes, Derek, we love hearing from listeners and
sharing what they have to say onthis show and in our social
media. We also welcome anysuggestions you have for this
show. That number again is207-200-6986, you can also email
us. The email address is podcastat the BTS center.org. That's

(54:27):
podcast at the BTS center.org.We have all of these contact
details, information about ourguests, full transcript and a
discussion guide for you in ourshow notes. Visit climate
changed podcast.org, that'sclimate change podcast dot O R
G, coming up next month. My cohost Nicole diroff and I will
ask the question, What on Earthcan a chaplain do to address

(54:50):
climate change? Nicole willspeak with author Terry LePage.
She wrote eye of the storm,facing climate and social chaos
with calm and courage theclimate.

Change. Podcast is produced by Peterson Toscano
and Anna Barron. Our podcast isa project of the BTS center in
beautiful Portland, Maine.

Learn about the many resources we share in our
regular online programs byvisiting the BTS center.org.
That's the BTS center.org.

Friends Go in peace, and may the God who walks
on wounded feet walk with you onthe path. May the God who serves
with wounded hands, open yourhands to serve. May the God who
loves with wounded heart, openyour heart to love. May you see
the face of Christ in all thatyou meet. May all that you meet
see the face of Christ in you.

Amen. You

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