December 14, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode, hosts Ben Yosua-Davis and Nicole Diroff examine the evolving role of chaplains in a climate-changed world. They are joined by author, chaplain, and grief circle facilitator Terry LePage, as well as Rev. Alison Cornish, coordinator of The BTS Center's Climate Conscious Chaplaincy Initiative. Together, they explore how chaplains offer spiritual and emotional support amidst environmental crises, foster resilience, and address ecological grief.
Grounding:
Rev. Alison Cornish begins with a grounding reflection centered on a personal story about a tree near her home that was cut down. Alison explains how this ritual of acknowledgment and grief mirrors chaplaincy practices of care, presence, and connection to the more-than-human world.
Main Conversation:
Ben and Nicole engage Terry LePage and Alison Cornish in a conversation about chaplaincy in a climate-changed world.
Terry LePage:
Terry shares insights from her book Eye of the Storm: Facing Climate and Social Chaos with Calm and Courage. She introduces concepts such as the "Collapse-Aware" framework and "Islands of Compassion," which she attributes to Margaret Wheatley's "Islands of Sanity." Terry also highlights her work with the Deep Adaptation Forum, which fosters spaces for resilience and grief processing in the face of climate uncertainty.
Alison Cornish:
Alison outlines key skills chaplains bring to a climate-conscious world, including trauma-informed care, meaning-making, and support for communities navigating ecological grief and displacement. She underscores the importance of chaplains as spiritual guides during times of environmental upheaval.
Next Steps:
Here are some ways listeners can engage further:
- Join a Grief Circle: Learn how to host or join a grief circle using tools from Terry’s book, Eye of the Storm.
- Explore Deep Adaptation: Visit the Deep Adaptation Forum for resources on resilience and climate-related challenges.
- Learn About Collapse Readiness: Read Professor Jem Bendell's reflections on societal collapse and recovery.
- Engage with The BTS Center: Explore the Lament with Earth Series for reflections on ecological grief and faith-based responses.
Additional Resources:
- Beyond Climate War: Writings on Deep Adaptation to Societal Collapse
- Margaret Wheatley: Islands of Sanity
- Lament with Earth series at The BTS Center
- Professor Jim Bendell: Thoughts on Collapse Readiness and Recovery: I was wrong to conclude that collapse was inevitable.
- Beyond Climate War: Writings on Deep Adaptation to societal collapse.
Meet Guest(s):
Guest bio with social media links + headshot
Terry LePage Terry LePage is the author of Eye of the Storm: Facing Climate and Social Chaos with Calm and Courage. She facilitates grief circles and teaches nonviolent communication practices through the Deep Adaptation Forum.
Rev. Alison Cornish Rev. Alison Cornish is the coordinator of the Climate Conscious Chaplaincy Initiative at the BTS Center. She is a seasoned faith leader with a background in environmental advocacy and interfaith work.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:00):
M. You are listening to Climate
Changed, a podcast about pursuing faith, life
and love in a climate changed world.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:08):
Hosted by me, Nicole Diroff and me,
Ben Yahshua Davis. Climate Changed
features guests who deepen the Conversation
while also stirring the waters.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:19):
The Climate Changed podcast is a project of the
BTS Center.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:23):
Hey, Ben, it is great to be back for another
episode. I really enjoyed
your last conversation with Derek Weston.
For those of you listening, if you haven't heard the episode
yet, it is a deep dive into what the Bible
says and doesn't say about climate
change.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:41):
Thanks, Nicole. It is great, uh, to be in
Conversation with you today, and that was a great episode.
Today's show, we'll look at climate change from yet another
angle. We are considering, uh, the role of
chaplains in a climate changed world.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:54):
You may have encountered a chaplain on a
college campus or in a hospital.
There are also military and prison
chaplains, community chaplains, and
movement chaplains. I've even heard
of some big corporations hiring
chaplains. Today we're
exploring the question, what on earth can a
(01:16):
chaplain do to address climate change?
And or what might chaplains
contribute to our understanding of how
to address climate change?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (01:27):
Nicole will speak with author and Speaker Terry
LePage. She wrote Eye of the Storm,
Facing Climate and Social Chaos with
Calm and Courage. Terri has worked as a research
chemist, a transitional minister, and a hospice
chaplain.
>> Nicole Diroff (01:41):
After you hear my conversation with Terry, Ben and
I will bring in another voice, Reverend Allison
Cornish. Allison has been instrumental
in considering the roles of chaplains and
what they can do in our rapidly changing world.
She is the coordinator of the BTS Center's
Climate Conscious Chaplaincy Initiative,
(02:01):
where we've partnered with the Chaplaincy Innovation Lab
and many others to create resources,
support groups, learning communities,
and more, all specifically designed
for chaplains in a climate changed world.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (02:16):
As always, we will provide you with a short grounding
exercise. And at the end of the show, we will invite you
to consider some possible, meaningful and achieving
achievable next steps.
>> Nicole Diroff (02:27):
Um, first, because we're talking about
chaplains today, I just want to give a shout
out to Chaplain Powers,
who was the chaplain at Ohio Wesleyan
University. When I was a student there,
Chaplain Powers did this amazing
thing of creating spaces for
(02:47):
students where they were just
100% accepted. With
all sorts of the stresses, uh, of college
and uncertainty about who we were meant to
be in the world, Chaplain Powers was
just a safe person
who created safe spaces.
And because of that, our university,
(03:10):
um, found creative ways for people
who are different from one another to get along.
I realized after going into interfaith work, that
he was a big part of what set
the stage for that.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (03:24):
He sounds like a really important person in your life, Nicole.
I will confess that I did not have a similar experience
with chaplaincy where I went to
college. Our Protestant chaplain, I remember saying
once on Sunday morning, he said, uh,
basically, I want to not have this
worship experience be too good, because I really think you all should
(03:44):
be going out and finding local churches. Which is why
many of us who are Protestant turned to the wonderful Catholic
chaplain who was on campus, who was
really interested in forming relationships and working with
folks, um, across different faith expressions. And she was
the one, in fact, who introduced me to the Catholic liturgy of
the hours, which is a wonderful way to pray your way through the day.
(04:04):
There are five big books with about 20,000 bookmarks, and you have to
flip from page to page. And she patiently sat with this
Protestant for a very long period of time, teaching me
how to navigate the liturgy of her tradition, for which I am very,
very grateful.
>> Nicole Diroff (04:17):
Mm. Lovely.
So we will hear from Terri lepage in a
moment.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (04:23):
But first, as in every episode of Climate Changed,
we offer a brief moment of reflection and
grounding. Reverend Allison Cornish, who will join us
for Conversation later in this episode, has a story to
tell us. Allison is the coordinator of the
chaplaincy Initiative here at the BTS Center. And when
city officials decided to cut down an old
tree, including one in front of Allison's
(04:46):
house, she created rituals for herself,
her neighbors, and the tree.
>> Alison Cornish (04:53):
There was a, uh, beloved tree in front of our
house that was slated to be cut
down.
I was bereft. I think of this
tree as more, uh, than human
being. I had a relationship with
(05:14):
the tree. I couldn't let its
passing go
unannounced, unmarked. Um,
I held a ceremony for the tree. A couple
of people came. We
talked about our feelings for
(05:36):
this tree. We apologized to the
tree that we couldn't derail this
process that was in place. And then
I left cards for people to write
messages to the tree and leave it.
It was amazing what people
left in terms of naming
(05:58):
their relationship with this tree and naming the
relationship their children had to have with this tree.
This was hugely risky for me. This is right in front of
my house. This is
the town that's made this decision. It's very
official and everything, but I just
needed to honor what I was
feeling, in some ways,
(06:20):
offer a, uh, chaplaincy presence
to the tree and also to the
community that had seen the
tree as a companion.
>> Nicole Diroff (07:04):
Wow.
I love the way Allison lives out her
values. In such embodied ways in the
place where she lives. Thank you for that story,
Allison.
And now onto my conversation with Terry
LePage, who brings a unique
(07:25):
blend of heart and intellect to her
work. Terry now resides in
Southern California and has a background as a
research chemist, transitional minister,
and hospice chaplain. She
facilitates nonviolent communication, practice
groups, and grief circles through the
International Deep Adaptation Forum.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (07:48):
Terry is the author of Eye of the Facing
Climate and Social Chaos with Calm and
Courage. The Book is a compelling collection of
resources and stories from around the world
designed to enhance practical and emotional
resilience through engaging essays, interviews,
and reflections. It invites readers to reframe their
values, confront fear and loss with courage, and
(08:10):
find inspiration to live creatively and
compassionately in challenging times.
>> Nicole Diroff (08:16):
I spoke with Terry about her work and asked her to
read a section of her Book for us.
Some of it is hard hitting as she
talks about potential systems collapse.
After we hear this Conversation, Ben and I will
respond to what we heard.
We begin our conversation by asking Terri
what motivated her to write Eye of the Storm and get
(08:38):
involved with the Deep Adaptation Forum.
>> Terry LaPage (08:41):
The story starts with me reading a Facebook
post in 2018. It kind of
rocked my world. It was a, uh,
paper written by a fellow named Jim Bendell,
sustainability professor in England at that
time. Just kind of saying, the emperor's got no clothes.
There's no sustainability to be had here.
(09:02):
What he did in that paper that was unique is he talked
about the emotional
effects of his realization on him
and the identity effects
that in turn stimulated me and a whole
bunch of other people to start asking those
really hard questions that
are, at root, spiritual questions.
(09:24):
I was serving a small church as
a transitional minister at that time.
I had gotten politically active when somebody
got elected to national office a few years
before, I had trouble
preaching without crying.
>> Nicole Diroff (09:40):
Oh, wow.
>> Terry LaPage (09:41):
I've never wanted to try to convince anybody
how bad things are.
>> Nicole Diroff (09:46):
That's right.
>> Terry LaPage (09:47):
I just don't want that to be my job. At the
same time, I want to respond to it in the way
I know how. Which is
pastoral.
>> Nicole Diroff (09:56):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (09:57):
I did a lot of discerning with the help of
a fellow clergy coach and
came up with a series called Grief,
Gratitude, and Courage. Well, um, a workshop,
and that was lovely. And then the pandemic hit,
so I went for places that I could host it
online. And that's how I discovered the Deep Adaptation
(10:17):
Forum, for which I am deeply grateful, because those are
my people, and I'm up to my eyeballs in
Deep Adaptation Forum at this time.
>> Nicole Diroff (10:25):
Beautiful. This Book that you've
authored Eye of the Storm I
have been reading and.
>> Terry LaPage (10:33):
So appreciating then you already
know a lot about me. It is not an
autobiography, but there's a lot of personal stuff in
it.
>> Nicole Diroff (10:43):
The way it starts is inviting
us to see the climate crisis
not as a problem to be solved, but
rather as a predicament that we might respond
to.
>> Terry LaPage (10:55):
It's a really important distinction
and it's a really big shift
psychologically, emotionally,
spiritually. Problems are to be
solved and predicaments are to
be faced and responded
to. Climate chaos
is not going to get solved. It
(11:18):
might get ameliorated, it might
not. But forces
have been set in motion that can't be
undone. And
possibly in some other related
regimes, things also
maybe taking a course that
is beyond our ability to fix.
(11:39):
So resource depletion
plus climate chaos equals
not being able to rebuild the way of life that we're used
to over the long haul.
>> Nicole Diroff (11:51):
Your Book speaks very specifically
to the stories that we embrace.
You lift up a number of stories we need to
let go of and a number we might embrace.
In these times,
perhaps one of the.
>> Terry LaPage (12:06):
Most urgent is
to redefine what success
means. In our
culture, success has meant
getting to the top of a heap, which has a whole lot
of injustice on the bottom half,
3/4, 9/10 if you look
(12:26):
worldwide. It has meant,
honestly getting lucky. I mean,
my son has a great job, can't afford a
house, does never expect really
to own one. And that has been a measure of
success. Those
definitions of success send
people places that
(12:49):
just kill the planet faster and
that also are pretty soul crushing for them a lot of
times. So changing the definition of
success is a huge one.
>> Nicole Diroff (13:00):
So what would be a new story to
embrace as we try and do some
redefining?
>> Terry LaPage (13:07):
The non human world has
value, huge value. And
we can be in intimate relationship with
it.
>> Nicole Diroff (13:16):
Mhm.
>> Terry LaPage (13:16):
And you can take that story a lot of
places. I
particularly enjoy
befriending parts of the non human world
in very anthropomorphic ways.
Like I talk to my plants, I talk
to trees, I talk to rocks, I treat
them like people because that's how I know to have relationships. Um,
(13:39):
does that fix anything? No, but it
invites us to have a kind of
reverence that if we'd had it all
along, things might have gone very differently.
>> Nicole Diroff (13:51):
Courage is a word that you use
throughout the Book, accompanied
with some other words like
calm, compassion,
creativity. Courage can take so
many different forms.
>> Terry LaPage (14:08):
I think I see it a lot in the
people in the groups that I work with,
when they work Hard to pull
themselves together emotionally so that
they can be somebody else's calm. Taking
the time and investing in ways
to care for yourself
(14:28):
and regulate yourself so that you can be present
for others is hard work. And it's
hard admitting that we need that much help.
Even. I, uh, think it's necessary
work.
>> Nicole Diroff (14:39):
Yeah. Interesting. So
honesty and vulnerability
leading to the
possibility of courage and an
ability to be calm for others, an
ability to lead, to offer calm
leadership comes from that, from that
courage.
>> Terry LaPage (14:58):
The way I would say it is when you know
somebody's in deep pain and when their pain scares
you a little, like you do not really want to
enter into their pain. The particular
kind of courage that I'm inviting people to in this
Book is to not all the time,
but when the time seems right and
your own health permits
(15:21):
to step into that pain with them
and trust that the two of you together can carry
it.
>> Nicole Diroff (15:28):
In the Book. You imagine a
cliff and a shoreline.
I would love for you to introduce that
metaphor, and maybe that would be a good place
to play with courage and
calm. What do those concepts look like
within that storyline
of the cliff and the shoreline?
>> Terry LaPage (15:50):
What you've described, Nicole, is the
crumbling cliff. That
is my favorite story in the Book.
It fits reality as I experience
it. And the idea is that those of
us who think we're comfortable and safe are
actually at the edge of a crumbling
cliff. It has been crumbling for a
(16:11):
while. People have been falling into poverty and
homelessness and climate displacement,
especially in California. We don't look,
we don't want to know what's at the bottom of the cliff. We want
to pretend it doesn't exist. We want to just paint
it out of the picture. At, uh, the
bottom of the cliff, people don't just disappear into
(16:31):
the void. They land in
a really rough and rugged zone, the
tideline, where the tide goes in and out and
lots of rocks, lots of splashing.
Life is still possible for a lot of people at
this tideline, but it isn't easy.
Many times in history and before
(16:53):
written history, people have lived and managed
to thrive at the tideline, but with a
lot more discomfort, a lot more
loss.
>> Nicole Diroff (17:04):
What does courage look like in that story?
>> Terry LaPage (17:07):
When you're at the top of the cliff, it takes
courage to look down and say, those people are
just like me. They haven't done
anything wrong. They're not some other
kind of people. They're just like me at the bottom of the
cliff. And then ask yourself, what are you
going to do about that? And whatever it is, it will
(17:27):
seem inadequate. I'm sure it probably
still matters that you know people who
are struggling and that you allow your heart to
be touched by that. For people
at the bottom of the cliff, I cannot speak as well
because I have led a pretty sheltered life
and that appears to be continuing in the immediate
(17:48):
future. Except I do know
that the kind of stresses that you're
under can lead you to behave very
badly if you're not careful. It takes a lot
of determination and self
regulation to show up and hold on to
your values when your survival's
(18:08):
at stake or you've had huge
losses.
>> Nicole Diroff (18:13):
I know from your bio
that serving as a chaplain, and
I think in particular within the realm of
hospice, is something that you have had
experience with.
>> Terry LaPage (18:26):
I was a volunteer hospice chaplain for about a
year. The work really
appeals to me, as I call it a
ministry of presence. Like, here's a
thing that everybody's confused and
scared and I can walk in the room and go, this
is normal. This is a thing. I'm not
scared. I'll sit with you through it. I'll give
(18:49):
you some signposts.
And the relief is just palpable.
And it's also so real when
people are up against it.
The fake stuff becomes pointless and people
get so real. And I just find that really beautiful.
>> Nicole Diroff (19:08):
As m you think about
hospice chaplaincy, what
does that mean? That hospice chaplains
are now in a context of a climate changed
world. Are there ways that you imagine, uh,
that reality will come up for the
people they're serving and the chaplains themselves?
>> Terry LaPage (19:30):
The thing that comes to
mind is that the question of
legacy, some kind of continuity,
may be more difficult. You may not
have the same assurance. If
the elder is. My term is
collapse aware. Um, that is connected
(19:50):
with the language of predicament and
a sense in which some things are broken that can't be
fixed. By now, then that elder is
going to be understandably very
worried about the fate of the people they leave behind.
Likewise, the people who
might otherwise take on a legacy
(20:11):
and say, yes, I can honor that might say,
I don't know, I don't think I can.
That's just a guess on my part.
>> Nicole Diroff (20:18):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (20:19):
So back to questions of identity again.
>> Nicole Diroff (20:22):
Exactly. And what success looks
like, as you were sharing, you know,
the image of someone very close to the end of
their life. And hospice could come to play
whether someone is older or not as old,
but in a situation of facing their
mortality, closely wrestling
with the biggest of questions, including what
(20:45):
is success? What does it look like to be
human in these times? And Living in a way
that's purposeful and meaningful.
A, ah, part of your Book shares the
experience of someone
going deep with the science
and then facing the
(21:05):
reality of being confronted
with the inability to be published
or really listened to if they
didn't conclude. On a
very positive note, as I read your
Book, I saw that really as a, um, call
for honesty and a, ah,
(21:25):
willingness to support those who are close to
the science when there are times
that everything they're saying doesn't end with a
rosy conclusion.
>> Terry LaPage (21:36):
The thing I think we lose
when we choose to have a
rosier view on things than I do. And
again, I'm not trying to force anybody
anywhere. But what we don't get to do
then is to think about,
well, if 12 inches of rain
in an hour or two is going to become normal, how
(21:57):
can we protect people's homes from that?
Let's spend on infrastructure.
Which ground are we going to seed and say
it's just not worth the bother of saving
and stop rebuilding over and over again?
So we are missing out on those kinds of
hard conversations. How are we going to
(22:19):
protect our food supply when the weather
is completely nuts? And, um, those of us
who are not farmers do not realize the hell that farmers have
been going through the last couple years.
>> Nicole Diroff (22:33):
So, yes, some of what you just.
Shared about conversations around our
physical environment and
farming and adaptation measures,
but beyond kind of the, uh, physical
landscape, what would your
dream be for the emotional
and spiritual landscape?
>> Terry LaPage (22:54):
I hope that the tools in my Book
are seeds
out of which grow islands of
sanity in the sense that Meg Wheatley
uses it, or I, um, might call them
islands of compassion, where
people work together for the common good,
tossing out some of those
(23:17):
capitalist and,
uh, industrial values that have cost
us so dearly and work hard
at taking care of each other through hard times.
That hard times will come, I have no
doubt. How we will respond to them, that's
the big question. And the more we can
(23:38):
respond with smart and
compassionate community, the better off
we'll be.
>> Nicole Diroff (23:45):
I'm imagining Back to the Cliff and the
Tideline story, the
way in which the reality
of a, uh, tide coming in and out and those
dynamic changes
really forces,
but also invites a, uh,
(24:05):
collaboration that
is not necessarily needed when
people are living in
isolated settings at the top of the
cliff. I don't
know if
everyone has had experiences to
say that sort of
(24:27):
collaboration indeed is
beautiful and of the
divine, but I have come close
enough to moments to know
that there's something
really authentic about the human
spirit that comes alive
(24:47):
in that Kind of working together. That,
actually, I think is
an opportunity to be reclaimed.
>> Terry LaPage (24:56):
I agree. And we have a lot of learning to
do.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:00):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (25:00):
Yeah. The funny thing is, we are more
dependent now than any of
those interdependent communities have
ever been. But we use the medium of money
exchange.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:13):
Interesting.
>> Terry LaPage (25:15):
And to insulate
us from
realizing that there is a supply chain going all the way
around the globe, uh, growing
the food that I eat and
that there are massive machines
tearing up parts of
(25:35):
Texas to allow me to drive
my car. So
I'm so dependent.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:42):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (25:43):
But I think that I'm independent
because I can use my credit card.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:48):
Yeah, that's right.
>> Terry LaPage (25:51):
I guess one thing I'd like to bring up is
the idea of
not even attempting to be pure
and allowing ourselves to be
hypocrites. There is no way out of the system
of industrial consumer society.
Try moving to the boondocks and just create a whole new
(26:11):
set of problems. So instead of
trying to be pure, let's try to be
compassionate and wise and have fun.
>> Nicole Diroff (26:19):
Yeah. Thank you for that. I think
that is such an accurate description
of what so many people
are wrestling with. Feeling a real dissonance
between what they perceive as
reality and honesty about
the current situation and then an
inability to get pure. If that. If
(26:42):
that's the way we might frame it.
Embracing imperfection,
embracing compassion for one another and
oneself. I feel like a lot of that is an
internal. Is an internal wrestling.
>> Terry LaPage (26:56):
Yes. And I hear a lot of people doing
external wrestling with their partners and their
relatives, trying to get those other
people to get on board with the
same measures that they are taking to try to
respect the planet. I'm, uh,
not sure it's worth it.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:14):
Interesting. Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (27:16):
There's some grieving that has to be done to let
go of that. So much grieving. Did I mention
grieving? Grieving is a thing.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:23):
Grieving is a thing.
>> Terry LaPage (27:24):
We do a lot of grieving.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:25):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (27:26):
Yeah. And we don't stay there.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:28):
The grief in that moment of
someone choosing certain practices
or behaviors in response to
the climate crisis and wanting others
to embrace those, also feeling
the tension of how to live with that
dynamic of feeling some conviction
around what they're already doing and
(27:50):
also not wanting to be, you know, a
downer or someone who seems really
focused on purity.
There's all kinds of layers of grief in that
situation.
>> Terry LaPage (28:03):
There's all kinds of grief all over this issue.
Plenty. Plenty on all sides.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is part of the reason
people want to pretend. And it's not
happening.
>> Nicole Diroff (28:16):
Thank you, Terry, for this Conversation.
And for this Book that you have
authored and for what you're working on
in the world.
>> Terry LaPage (28:25):
You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me.
I finally found other climate chaplains. What a thrill.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (28:51):
One thing that really stuck with me from that Conversation,
Nicole, that you had with Terry was this
idea of problem versus predicament.
It really got me thinking about how it
changes my definition in my own life of what it means
to be successful. I'm curious
how you responded to that in that moment and how your
ideas of success maybe have changed as a
(29:13):
result.
>> Terry LaPage (29:14):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Diroff (29:15):
Well, your question just points to maybe
the biggest thing my soul is wrestling with right
now. Over m the past
maybe year or so, doing the work that we do
at the BTS Center, I've really
wrestled with what my North
Star, what my guiding star is. As I,
as I live my life, I wrestle
(29:37):
with the structures that told me that kind of
that guiding star was owning a
home, having a job that
would provide the things I
need and you know, hopefully a little extra to
give back, that I'd have a, uh, strong
retirement account, to
have sort of the means to
(29:59):
be safe and secure. All of that
feels a little in question.
Success being defined much more in terms
of trusting ourselves and our
relationships. I want to be in a place where I
can trust my future self to handle hard
things.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (30:16):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Diroff (30:17):
That's more important than some of the other things I
drew security from. Trust
in the relationships that I am
investing in has become just more and more
poignant and important. How about for
you?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (30:32):
As I was listening to this, I was thinking back to kind of the
conversations I've had regularly with my 20
something year old self who was typically
type A, privileged, ambitious, really well
intentioned, wanting to go out and change the
world. And over time I've begun to learn how
little influence I actually have on um, so much of
the world around me. When all is said and done,
(30:55):
um, what do I want to be known for in terms
of how I carried myself in my life? And I find
increasingly going back to the integrity I have
in relationships, the ways that I'm able to
respond in difficult moments and in
challenges and hopefully in ways that can bring out the best
in those who are around me. Much more
(31:15):
than where my career will end up or how many
books I publish or any of these other markers that in my
20s I thought that's what it means to live a meaningful life.
Um, I find myself
both wondering whether those things are really
feasible and also wondering whether they're
actually really that worthwhile.
>> Nicole Diroff (31:35):
Yeah.
Terry talked A little about this in the moment where
she talks about how this can come
up for hospice chaplains who
are accompanying, uh, people facing
their mortality rather acutely
and the way in which that leads to people
reflecting on their legacy.
(31:57):
We live in a time where
people who are aware of some
of the ways that our
individualistic and consumeristic
society has left
both people and planet harmed.
What does my life mean in that
context is such a special role
(32:19):
for chaplains to accompany that process?
Chaplains often are not asked to like, give
the answer, but more to go along for the
journey.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (32:29):
Yeah, that chaplain function is
played by different people in different
ways throughout our society. I think
about that role for local pastors in
communities who very much serve that chaplain
function for many of the people, especially within their congregation
and accompanying them through these difficult,
oftentimes unresolvable life
(32:51):
questions. Um, what does it mean to sit with someone who's
dying or in the face of a tragedy that is completely
senseless and may be open ended and unresolved and
may shape the rest of a person's life?
My parents were pastors and they talk about how they
would talk to other pastors who were farther on in their careers
and say, you know, what is the thing you most regretted
from the choices you've made that have brought you to the
(33:14):
place they're at? And almost all of them, without exception,
would say, I wish I had spent more time with
my children when they were young. Uh, that was
the career regret they brought with them. And that's about
really a ministry of presence. It's about,
uh, being with your kids as they begin to
navigate the predicaments that are part of growing
up. And I see this with my 8 year
(33:37):
old son and my 5 year old daughter
all the time, where they come with some really, really
big questions. We were at a field trip and we had a three hour drive
back and we talked about some pretty serious stuff in the
car. The witness that I've had from my elders
is, looking back, they say that was actually the most, um, important
thing. Not how, however many meetings you attended
(33:57):
and where you climbed the ladder to, but how you were present with the
people around you who you love.
>> Alison Cornish (34:02):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (34:04):
For the chaplains, I know one of the things that their work really
highlights to me is that when you are faced with
these predicaments, there
is genuine value to care.
>> Alison Cornish (34:15):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Diroff (34:16):
I also think about the ways that
chaplains who are being present
with those who have been most deeply
impacted by climate change
often leave those encounters with an
acute awareness of what's
happening in our world and what needs to change.
(34:37):
M I've gotten to know a chaplain here in Portland, Maine
who spends a significant amount of time
with our unhoused neighbors
and has watched the ways in which
the weather weirding
that's happening here in Maine is
impacting most acutely those who are
(34:57):
unhoused in these times.
There's, uh, kind of a common concept within climate
work that those who have done the
least to cause climate change are
unfortunately often those who
end up feeling its effects in
most harmful ways.
(35:18):
So she is drawn into
really being aware of the ways in which flooding
is increasing, the ways in which we have
more times when the ground is supposed to be frozen
that instead it's muddy, the ways in which the
atmosphere is holding more water and so
we get torrential downpours
(35:39):
because she's spending time with and
accompanying those who
are in a tent or
under a highway bypass.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (35:50):
Mhm. Mhm. Your
story reminds me as well about the importance of witness.
Sometimes when we're with folks, we can only do so much
to materially change their circumstances,
but being present with and seeing their
suffering is efficacious and
important in and of itself. Even if
(36:12):
there's nothing we can do.
>> Nicole Diroff (36:14):
That'S powerful and a very distinct
role of spiritual leaders in these
times that does not require a
degree.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (36:24):
Right? Right.
>> Nicole Diroff (36:25):
There are many spiritual caregivers in our
times and sometimes that may, that may
be the chaplain, but other times it is the
caring person who's around. I'm thinking of
another story where climate change
showed up for a chaplain who I know this
chaplain serves in a university setting
and shared with me that the head of
(36:48):
the environmental studies department at their
university came to the chaplain and said,
I really need help
because my students
are despairing. My
students who are learning the science,
I don't know how to continue to teach them
because they need care and
(37:10):
support with what they're learning.
So this is a space where first.
That chaplain became acutely aware
of what's causing the distress to these
students and needed to
draw on skills of meaning
making in challenging times, skills
of building strength through
(37:32):
relationship and care of one another,
and also providing some care for the
professors too. That's a
role for chaplains in institutions with many
layers, is actually to care for all the
layers of the system, including this
professor who cares enough for their students
to come and ask for this kind of help.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (37:55):
Mhm. This is where we can think
about the chaplaincy role inhabited by
chaplains, but as you say, by lots of
good Kind, compassionate people as part of what
brings communities back to one another. When I
think about Alison's story, in some ways
she chaplained that tree.
>> Nicole Diroff (38:14):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (38:15):
Through an untimely painful, traumatic
death.
>> Nicole Diroff (38:18):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (38:19):
That was a gift to her. It was a gift to her friends.
It was also a gift to the tree. What does
it mean to chaplain our other than
human kin that are also suffering in this moment
of planetary upheaval?
>> Nicole Diroff (38:33):
I know one person who's engaged
in trying to answer that is a woman
named Trebby Johnson who
founded an organization called Radical Joy
for Hard Times and is indeed a
good friend of Allison's, who we'll
bring back into this in just a moment.
(38:53):
Trebi has created rituals
at broken places in our
natural world, healing rituals that see
the place and aim
to create beauty from
brutality, from brokenness.
You don't need to hold a formal chaplain
identity to, from time to time,
(39:16):
assume a chaplain posture
and relate to the world in a way
that brings acceptance, care and
insight.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (39:25):
Yes, a very loud amen to that.
>> Nicole Diroff (39:28):
So let's bring Alison back
into this conversation. She
shared our, uh, grounding earlier, and as I
mentioned before, Allison
Cornish serves as the coordinator of the
Chaplaincy Initiative here at the BTS
Center. She transitioned from a, uh, first
career in historic preservation to
(39:51):
ministry, and she has always been
driven by a calling to address environmental
issues.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (39:57):
Alison has held various leadership roles, including
executive Director of Pennsylvania Interfaith Power and
Light. She is a valued member of the BTS
center team who helps us focus on
ecological grief, religious imagination,
and climate chaplaincy.
>> Nicole Diroff (40:13):
As, uh, someone involved with continuing education for
chaplains, Allison has spent much time
considering what it means to be a chaplain in a climate
changed world. We asked her to tell us what
chaplains do and how that work is being
updated and adapted for people living
in our rapidly changing world.
>> Alison Cornish (40:33):
Well, let's start with what chaplains
or those who offer spiritual care already
have. What is it that they're already doing?
First of all, and probably most importantly,
the chaplains that I'm aware of, that I'm
in relationship with, empathetically
and respectfully assist individuals and
(40:54):
communities in accepting and making difficult
choices and adapting to change.
Imagine, for example, a chaplain in a
hospital who's tending to somebody who
has just received a very difficult
diagnosis. That's a great example
of how somebody sits with
(41:14):
that individual and works on
what are the choices that we have here and how are you going
to have to adapt to this change in your life plan.
Chaplains understand trauma, and that is a
growing field trauma Informed. Whether
we call it education or therapy
or teaching, chaplains have to have an
(41:35):
awareness of how trauma affects
people and communities.
Chaplains offer rituals and practices that
honor communal loss and grief and move
people towards healing so that there's
a way of going forward. Even from
the darkest of times, chaplains
(41:55):
engage in theological reflection as a source of
meaning making. Now, not every chaplain identifies with
a faith tradition, but still that
idea of deep thinking
and taking what is offered
in a, uh, sharing from an individual
and really seeking the threads that will
(42:16):
allow meaning to emerge from
that. Something that we're having a lot of experience
of these days is coping with uncertainty and
holding questions that can't actually be
answered in this moment, in this time.
Tending to loss and grief
and brokenness is part of a chaplain's
work. Chaplains also use
(42:38):
a relational approach in serving people of all
faiths as well as those of no particular
faith identity. They're sort of the original
interfaith or multi faith
or pluralistic faith
practitioners. That's really important.
Chaplains cultivate and maintain hope and
resilience again for individuals
(43:00):
and for communities. And chaplains
offer caring for the caregivers. One of the
phrases that came out of my own chaplaincy training
is the patient is not always the person in the
bed. So the idea that the
people who are tending to the people
who have deep suffering also
need care is really important.
(43:23):
But hold on, those are some of the
things that chaplains do in the normal course of
their training and their work.
But when we start thinking about a climate changed
world, there are some further
or even different spiritual needs which are
arising from our changing climate.
And some of the things that we hear from
(43:45):
our chaplains and that we also are in Conversation
with them about are people are holding some
really grave doubts about the
possibility of a positive future.
What does the future look like that's different from
today? And is it moving
towards the apocalyptic or is
it moving towards something that looks like the
(44:08):
past? People are really
questioning this idea
of progress and that things always look
better or uh, are better. We
know that climate migration is
in process right now
and that there's displacement from long term homes and
lands and rootlessness and in some
(44:31):
cases the likelihood that returning to home
is simply not possible if where
home is, is now underwater
or has been destroyed by multiple
wildfires. A lot of people are
feeling a, uh, sense of
disempowerment and feeling like they're a
victim of global or existential and
(44:51):
external conditions. It's like, where's
agency right now? Where can
we make choices or decisions
in the midst of something that is so big
feels so overwhelming and so powerful.
Young adults are facing
questions about their future
that even one generation back
(45:14):
did not need to face at that age and
in that way and in that formative moment of
their lives. So for a university
or college chaplain to not be thinking
about climate change, I think would be a real,
a real drawback to the
authenticity and the veracity of their
work. So that would be, um, an
(45:36):
obvious place.
Everyone needs a Climate Changed 101
someplace in their lives to understand
what's happening, what the anticipated effects,
particularly focusing on systems vulnerable
to climate, such as displacement and loss
of homes and changing food supply and water
(45:57):
issues and everything else that goes along that
I think we all need, like a base
understanding not only of the science of
climate change, but also of the effects and the way in
which they're already playing out and will continue
to. Some of the disaster.
Spiritual care that's been offered is
extremely important, but I
(46:20):
think we need to reimagine
what the life cycle of disasters are,
particularly since the anticipation
and preparation stages are now
much longer. We know much more
about how to prepare for a
disaster, but also the recovery stage. If
we start thinking about
(46:43):
man and Nature made
human and Nature made disasters, which I'm not sure
there's really a clear dividing line around those anymore,
we're moving from acute situations
that could resolve back to some
sort of normative state to a chronic
pattern where we have
(47:04):
one disaster after another after another. So
that really changes what recovery looks
like across the board. At
the BTS Center, I think we're looking at theological,
doctrinal and spiritual resources for sense
making meaning making
resilience and hope. So
(47:25):
inviting, uh, people to really dig deep into
their home traditions or adopted
traditions and see what's there that can really
help us move through these times by
building resilience and hope.
The justice issues related to a, uh, climate
change world, particularly around diversity,
(47:45):
equity and inclusion, are only
going to deepen. So that
level of education that we offer to
chaplains I think could be,
uh, really beefed up a lot.
And along with that, there are unique needs
for specific populations, whether those are
(48:05):
elders or people living with a
disability, children and youth,
lgbtqia, uh, and
plus individuals and communities, immigrants and
those incarcerated.
Elevating m and teaching the ways that Nature
can heal is incredibly
(48:27):
important and particularly
versus what I mentioned earlier about
losing our faith in the natural world.
I think that re engaging
with the natural world, particularly after
a disaster that has affected
somebody, is incredibly important.
Work that chaplains could be
(48:48):
cultivating and then
normalizing, normalizing
grief, normalizing
trauma, informed care, normalizing
climate displacement and the stories that relate
to that. All of the things that we might
see as outliers or one
offs, we need to start thinking
(49:11):
about how to bring that into this is
the way that we live now.
Yeah, that's a small list, but there you
go.
>> Nicole Diroff (49:22):
Thank you again Allison for sharing your.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (49:25):
Experience and expertise
in each episode of climate change. We invite you
to consider taking the next step. Allison
is actively involved in a BTS center initiative
called Climate Conscious Chaplaincy. We offer
a series of programs, an emerging network and a growing
collection of resources for chaplains serving in a
(49:45):
variety of settings.
>> Nicole Diroff (49:46):
In addition to the videos and other resources on our
website, we also provide opportunities for you to
connect with others who are interested in doing
chaplain work through a climate change lens.
To learn more and take our chaplain survey,
visit thebtscenter.org
under the Initiatives tab. Select
(50:07):
Climate Conscious Chaplaincy.
In addition to engaging with those
resources, I invite you
as a possible, meaningful next step
to think about a young person in your
life and how you might
accompany them in this climate changed
(50:27):
world. That could be simply
through a conversation where you
accompany and witness to what
they're experiencing. It also may be an
opportunity to show up for something that
they care about. As
you consider relating to a young person or
young people on these big topics,
(50:50):
I highly recommend a Book to you
called In Deep Spiritual
Care for Young People in a Climate Crisis.
The Book is written by Talitha Amadea, um
Ajo and it's really
good to.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (51:05):
Provide us with more possible next steps is one of our
producers, Anna Barron.
>> Anna Barron (51:10):
Thanks Ben.
I have just a couple more invitations for
you, our listeners. As Nicole
mentioned, the BTS center has a page dedicated
to Climate Conscious Chaplaincy. I invite
you to visit it under the initiatives
tab@thebtscenter.org and
click on the Interest form button. To stay up to date
(51:31):
through email, go ahead and fill out the
survey on the page as well to help inform our
chaplaincy programming. If you are
able and willing, I also want to invite
you to sign up to volunteer as a Red Cross
Spiritual Care Team member. This
position is listed under Volunteer Opportunities on the
(51:51):
Red Cross website, which we will link in
the show notes. I encourage you to at least
visit the site and learn more about this opportunity.
Lastly, I invite you to seek out a
chaplain in your own community, sit down and
have a conversation with them about the climate
crisis. Figure out if, uh, volunteering
(52:11):
as a community service chaplain might be
something that you're interested in. As
always, if you do any of these action steps,
please feel free to share them along with this episode on
your social media so that some of your friends might be
inspired to do the same. There is no
pressure to do any or all of these next
steps. We just want these to be a resource for
(52:34):
you as you figure out ways to engage in this
huge and overwhelming topic.
Thanks again Ben and Nicole for this insightful
episode.
>> Nicole Diroff (52:44):
Thank you, Anna and um, thank
you.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (52:47):
For joining us today for this episode of the Climate
Changed Podcast.
>> Nicole Diroff (52:51):
Our guest next month is Jose
Aguto. He was Executive Director of
Catholic Climate Covenant and served with the Friends
Committee on uh, National Legislation, the National
Congress of American Indians, EPA's
American Indian Environmental Office, and the
10th Mountain Division of the U.S. army.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (53:11):
Jose not only gave me a deeper insight into the
Roman Catholic approach to climate change, but he also
revealed the challenges and, uh, the incredible
possibilities in organizing Catholics in the
USA to embrace climate work.
>> Nicole Diroff (53:24):
Listeners, you also have a chance
to be on our next episode. We are
curious about Chaplain's stories, hearing
Terry and Allison speak about the role of
chaplains. When did you experience
the work of a chaplain? Was it at college, in the
military, in prison, in a hospital,
or elsewhere? We want to know. Tell us
(53:46):
about your experience and if.
You like, add your thoughts about how.
Chaplains can be active in the climate movement.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (53:54):
Or are you a chaplain yourself and you have a
story to share? Feel free to text or call us. The
number is
207-200-6986
plus 1. If calling from outside the USA,
that number again is
207-200-6986
or email us
podcasthebtscenter.org
(54:16):
that's
podcasthebtscenter.org
Our podcast is produced.
>> Nicole Diroff (54:22):
By Peterson Toscano and Anna
Barron. Thanks Peterson and Anna.
It is a project of the BTS center in
beautiful Portland, Maine.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (54:31):
Visit thebtscenter.org to learn more about our
many in person and online programs and the resources
we share. That website again is
thebtscenter.org here's hoping
you're finding faith, life and love in a, uh, climate
changed world.
M. You are listening to Climate
Changed, a podcast about pursuing faith, life
and love in a climate changed world.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:08):
Hosted by me, Nicole Diroff and me,
Ben Yahshua Davis. Climate Changed
features guests who deepen the Conversation
while also stirring the waters.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:19):
The Climate Changed podcast is a project of the
BTS Center.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:23):
Hey, Ben, it is great to be back for another
episode. I really enjoyed
your last conversation with Derek Weston.
For those of you listening, if you haven't heard the episode
yet, it is a deep dive into what the Bible
says and doesn't say about climate
change.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (00:41):
Thanks, Nicole. It is great, uh, to be in
Conversation with you today, and that was a great episode.
Today's show, we'll look at climate change from yet another
angle. We are considering, uh, the role of
chaplains in a climate changed world.
>> Nicole Diroff (00:54):
You may have encountered a chaplain on a
college campus or in a hospital.
There are also military and prison
chaplains, community chaplains, and
movement chaplains. I've even heard
of some big corporations hiring
chaplains. Today we're
exploring the question, what on earth can a
(01:16):
chaplain do to address climate change?
And or what might chaplains
contribute to our understanding of how
to address climate change?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (01:27):
Nicole will speak with author and Speaker Terry
LePage. She wrote Eye of the Storm,
Facing Climate and Social Chaos with
Calm and Courage. Terri has worked as a research
chemist, a transitional minister, and a hospice
chaplain.
>> Nicole Diroff (01:41):
After you hear my conversation with Terry, Ben and
I will bring in another voice, Reverend Allison
Cornish. Allison has been instrumental
in considering the roles of chaplains and
what they can do in our rapidly changing world.
She is the coordinator of the BTS Center's
Climate Conscious Chaplaincy Initiative,
(02:01):
where we've partnered with the Chaplaincy Innovation Lab
and many others to create resources,
support groups, learning communities,
and more, all specifically designed
for chaplains in a climate changed world.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (02:16):
As always, we will provide you with a short grounding
exercise. And at the end of the show, we will invite you
to consider some possible, meaningful and achieving
achievable next steps.
>> Nicole Diroff (02:27):
Um, first, because we're talking about
chaplains today, I just want to give a shout
out to Chaplain Powers,
who was the chaplain at Ohio Wesleyan
University. When I was a student there,
Chaplain Powers did this amazing
thing of creating spaces for
(02:47):
students where they were just
100% accepted. With
all sorts of the stresses, uh, of college
and uncertainty about who we were meant to
be in the world, Chaplain Powers was
just a safe person
who created safe spaces.
And because of that, our university,
(03:10):
um, found creative ways for people
who are different from one another to get along.
I realized after going into interfaith work, that
he was a big part of what set
the stage for that.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (03:24):
He sounds like a really important person in your life, Nicole.
I will confess that I did not have a similar experience
with chaplaincy where I went to
college. Our Protestant chaplain, I remember saying
once on Sunday morning, he said, uh,
basically, I want to not have this
worship experience be too good, because I really think you all should
(03:44):
be going out and finding local churches. Which is why
many of us who are Protestant turned to the wonderful Catholic
chaplain who was on campus, who was
really interested in forming relationships and working with
folks, um, across different faith expressions. And she was
the one, in fact, who introduced me to the Catholic liturgy of
the hours, which is a wonderful way to pray your way through the day.
(04:04):
There are five big books with about 20,000 bookmarks, and you have to
flip from page to page. And she patiently sat with this
Protestant for a very long period of time, teaching me
how to navigate the liturgy of her tradition, for which I am very,
very grateful.
>> Nicole Diroff (04:17):
Mm. Lovely.
So we will hear from Terri lepage in a
moment.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (04:23):
But first, as in every episode of Climate Changed,
we offer a brief moment of reflection and
grounding. Reverend Allison Cornish, who will join us
for Conversation later in this episode, has a story to
tell us. Allison is the coordinator of the
chaplaincy Initiative here at the BTS Center. And when
city officials decided to cut down an old
tree, including one in front of Allison's
(04:46):
house, she created rituals for herself,
her neighbors, and the tree.
>> Alison Cornish (04:53):
There was a, uh, beloved tree in front of our
house that was slated to be cut
down.
I was bereft. I think of this
tree as more, uh, than human
being. I had a relationship with
(05:14):
the tree. I couldn't let its
passing go
unannounced, unmarked. Um,
I held a ceremony for the tree. A couple
of people came. We
talked about our feelings for
(05:36):
this tree. We apologized to the
tree that we couldn't derail this
process that was in place. And then
I left cards for people to write
messages to the tree and leave it.
It was amazing what people
left in terms of naming
(05:58):
their relationship with this tree and naming the
relationship their children had to have with this tree.
This was hugely risky for me. This is right in front of
my house. This is
the town that's made this decision. It's very
official and everything, but I just
needed to honor what I was
feeling, in some ways,
(06:20):
offer a, uh, chaplaincy presence
to the tree and also to the
community that had seen the
tree as a companion.
>> Nicole Diroff (07:04):
Wow.
I love the way Allison lives out her
values. In such embodied ways in the
place where she lives. Thank you for that story,
Allison.
And now onto my conversation with Terry
LePage, who brings a unique
(07:25):
blend of heart and intellect to her
work. Terry now resides in
Southern California and has a background as a
research chemist, transitional minister,
and hospice chaplain. She
facilitates nonviolent communication, practice
groups, and grief circles through the
International Deep Adaptation Forum.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (07:48):
Terry is the author of Eye of the Facing
Climate and Social Chaos with Calm and
Courage. The Book is a compelling collection of
resources and stories from around the world
designed to enhance practical and emotional
resilience through engaging essays, interviews,
and reflections. It invites readers to reframe their
values, confront fear and loss with courage, and
(08:10):
find inspiration to live creatively and
compassionately in challenging times.
>> Nicole Diroff (08:16):
I spoke with Terry about her work and asked her to
read a section of her Book for us.
Some of it is hard hitting as she
talks about potential systems collapse.
After we hear this Conversation, Ben and I will
respond to what we heard.
We begin our conversation by asking Terri
what motivated her to write Eye of the Storm and get
(08:38):
involved with the Deep Adaptation Forum.
>> Terry LaPage (08:41):
The story starts with me reading a Facebook
post in 2018. It kind of
rocked my world. It was a, uh,
paper written by a fellow named Jim Bendell,
sustainability professor in England at that
time. Just kind of saying, the emperor's got no clothes.
There's no sustainability to be had here.
(09:02):
What he did in that paper that was unique is he talked
about the emotional
effects of his realization on him
and the identity effects
that in turn stimulated me and a whole
bunch of other people to start asking those
really hard questions that
are, at root, spiritual questions.
(09:24):
I was serving a small church as
a transitional minister at that time.
I had gotten politically active when somebody
got elected to national office a few years
before, I had trouble
preaching without crying.
>> Nicole Diroff (09:40):
Oh, wow.
>> Terry LaPage (09:41):
I've never wanted to try to convince anybody
how bad things are.
>> Nicole Diroff (09:46):
That's right.
>> Terry LaPage (09:47):
I just don't want that to be my job. At the
same time, I want to respond to it in the way
I know how. Which is
pastoral.
>> Nicole Diroff (09:56):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (09:57):
I did a lot of discerning with the help of
a fellow clergy coach and
came up with a series called Grief,
Gratitude, and Courage. Well, um, a workshop,
and that was lovely. And then the pandemic hit,
so I went for places that I could host it
online. And that's how I discovered the Deep Adaptation
(10:17):
Forum, for which I am deeply grateful, because those are
my people, and I'm up to my eyeballs in
Deep Adaptation Forum at this time.
>> Nicole Diroff (10:25):
Beautiful. This Book that you've
authored Eye of the Storm I
have been reading and.
>> Terry LaPage (10:33):
So appreciating then you already
know a lot about me. It is not an
autobiography, but there's a lot of personal stuff in
it.
>> Nicole Diroff (10:43):
The way it starts is inviting
us to see the climate crisis
not as a problem to be solved, but
rather as a predicament that we might respond
to.
>> Terry LaPage (10:55):
It's a really important distinction
and it's a really big shift
psychologically, emotionally,
spiritually. Problems are to be
solved and predicaments are to
be faced and responded
to. Climate chaos
is not going to get solved. It
(11:18):
might get ameliorated, it might
not. But forces
have been set in motion that can't be
undone. And
possibly in some other related
regimes, things also
maybe taking a course that
is beyond our ability to fix.
(11:39):
So resource depletion
plus climate chaos equals
not being able to rebuild the way of life that we're used
to over the long haul.
>> Nicole Diroff (11:51):
Your Book speaks very specifically
to the stories that we embrace.
You lift up a number of stories we need to
let go of and a number we might embrace.
In these times,
perhaps one of the.
>> Terry LaPage (12:06):
Most urgent is
to redefine what success
means. In our
culture, success has meant
getting to the top of a heap, which has a whole lot
of injustice on the bottom half,
3/4, 9/10 if you look
(12:26):
worldwide. It has meant,
honestly getting lucky. I mean,
my son has a great job, can't afford a
house, does never expect really
to own one. And that has been a measure of
success. Those
definitions of success send
people places that
(12:49):
just kill the planet faster and
that also are pretty soul crushing for them a lot of
times. So changing the definition of
success is a huge one.
>> Nicole Diroff (13:00):
So what would be a new story to
embrace as we try and do some
redefining?
>> Terry LaPage (13:07):
The non human world has
value, huge value. And
we can be in intimate relationship with
it.
>> Nicole Diroff (13:16):
Mhm.
>> Terry LaPage (13:16):
And you can take that story a lot of
places. I
particularly enjoy
befriending parts of the non human world
in very anthropomorphic ways.
Like I talk to my plants, I talk
to trees, I talk to rocks, I treat
them like people because that's how I know to have relationships. Um,
(13:39):
does that fix anything? No, but it
invites us to have a kind of
reverence that if we'd had it all
along, things might have gone very differently.
>> Nicole Diroff (13:51):
Courage is a word that you use
throughout the Book, accompanied
with some other words like
calm, compassion,
creativity. Courage can take so
many different forms.
>> Terry LaPage (14:08):
I think I see it a lot in the
people in the groups that I work with,
when they work Hard to pull
themselves together emotionally so that
they can be somebody else's calm. Taking
the time and investing in ways
to care for yourself
(14:28):
and regulate yourself so that you can be present
for others is hard work. And it's
hard admitting that we need that much help.
Even. I, uh, think it's necessary
work.
>> Nicole Diroff (14:39):
Yeah. Interesting. So
honesty and vulnerability
leading to the
possibility of courage and an
ability to be calm for others, an
ability to lead, to offer calm
leadership comes from that, from that
courage.
>> Terry LaPage (14:58):
The way I would say it is when you know
somebody's in deep pain and when their pain scares
you a little, like you do not really want to
enter into their pain. The particular
kind of courage that I'm inviting people to in this
Book is to not all the time,
but when the time seems right and
your own health permits
(15:21):
to step into that pain with them
and trust that the two of you together can carry
it.
>> Nicole Diroff (15:28):
In the Book. You imagine a
cliff and a shoreline.
I would love for you to introduce that
metaphor, and maybe that would be a good place
to play with courage and
calm. What do those concepts look like
within that storyline
of the cliff and the shoreline?
>> Terry LaPage (15:50):
What you've described, Nicole, is the
crumbling cliff. That
is my favorite story in the Book.
It fits reality as I experience
it. And the idea is that those of
us who think we're comfortable and safe are
actually at the edge of a crumbling
cliff. It has been crumbling for a
(16:11):
while. People have been falling into poverty and
homelessness and climate displacement,
especially in California. We don't look,
we don't want to know what's at the bottom of the cliff. We want
to pretend it doesn't exist. We want to just paint
it out of the picture. At, uh, the
bottom of the cliff, people don't just disappear into
(16:31):
the void. They land in
a really rough and rugged zone, the
tideline, where the tide goes in and out and
lots of rocks, lots of splashing.
Life is still possible for a lot of people at
this tideline, but it isn't easy.
Many times in history and before
(16:53):
written history, people have lived and managed
to thrive at the tideline, but with a
lot more discomfort, a lot more
loss.
>> Nicole Diroff (17:04):
What does courage look like in that story?
>> Terry LaPage (17:07):
When you're at the top of the cliff, it takes
courage to look down and say, those people are
just like me. They haven't done
anything wrong. They're not some other
kind of people. They're just like me at the bottom of the
cliff. And then ask yourself, what are you
going to do about that? And whatever it is, it will
(17:27):
seem inadequate. I'm sure it probably
still matters that you know people who
are struggling and that you allow your heart to
be touched by that. For people
at the bottom of the cliff, I cannot speak as well
because I have led a pretty sheltered life
and that appears to be continuing in the immediate
(17:48):
future. Except I do know
that the kind of stresses that you're
under can lead you to behave very
badly if you're not careful. It takes a lot
of determination and self
regulation to show up and hold on to
your values when your survival's
(18:08):
at stake or you've had huge
losses.
>> Nicole Diroff (18:13):
I know from your bio
that serving as a chaplain, and
I think in particular within the realm of
hospice, is something that you have had
experience with.
>> Terry LaPage (18:26):
I was a volunteer hospice chaplain for about a
year. The work really
appeals to me, as I call it a
ministry of presence. Like, here's a
thing that everybody's confused and
scared and I can walk in the room and go, this
is normal. This is a thing. I'm not
scared. I'll sit with you through it. I'll give
(18:49):
you some signposts.
And the relief is just palpable.
And it's also so real when
people are up against it.
The fake stuff becomes pointless and people
get so real. And I just find that really beautiful.
>> Nicole Diroff (19:08):
As m you think about
hospice chaplaincy, what
does that mean? That hospice chaplains
are now in a context of a climate changed
world. Are there ways that you imagine, uh,
that reality will come up for the
people they're serving and the chaplains themselves?
>> Terry LaPage (19:30):
The thing that comes to
mind is that the question of
legacy, some kind of continuity,
may be more difficult. You may not
have the same assurance. If
the elder is. My term is
collapse aware. Um, that is connected
(19:50):
with the language of predicament and
a sense in which some things are broken that can't be
fixed. By now, then that elder is
going to be understandably very
worried about the fate of the people they leave behind.
Likewise, the people who
might otherwise take on a legacy
(20:11):
and say, yes, I can honor that might say,
I don't know, I don't think I can.
That's just a guess on my part.
>> Nicole Diroff (20:18):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (20:19):
So back to questions of identity again.
>> Nicole Diroff (20:22):
Exactly. And what success looks
like, as you were sharing, you know,
the image of someone very close to the end of
their life. And hospice could come to play
whether someone is older or not as old,
but in a situation of facing their
mortality, closely wrestling
with the biggest of questions, including what
(20:45):
is success? What does it look like to be
human in these times? And Living in a way
that's purposeful and meaningful.
A, ah, part of your Book shares the
experience of someone
going deep with the science
and then facing the
(21:05):
reality of being confronted
with the inability to be published
or really listened to if they
didn't conclude. On a
very positive note, as I read your
Book, I saw that really as a, um, call
for honesty and a, ah,
(21:25):
willingness to support those who are close to
the science when there are times
that everything they're saying doesn't end with a
rosy conclusion.
>> Terry LaPage (21:36):
The thing I think we lose
when we choose to have a
rosier view on things than I do. And
again, I'm not trying to force anybody
anywhere. But what we don't get to do
then is to think about,
well, if 12 inches of rain
in an hour or two is going to become normal, how
(21:57):
can we protect people's homes from that?
Let's spend on infrastructure.
Which ground are we going to seed and say
it's just not worth the bother of saving
and stop rebuilding over and over again?
So we are missing out on those kinds of
hard conversations. How are we going to
(22:19):
protect our food supply when the weather
is completely nuts? And, um, those of us
who are not farmers do not realize the hell that farmers have
been going through the last couple years.
>> Nicole Diroff (22:33):
So, yes, some of what you just.
Shared about conversations around our
physical environment and
farming and adaptation measures,
but beyond kind of the, uh, physical
landscape, what would your
dream be for the emotional
and spiritual landscape?
>> Terry LaPage (22:54):
I hope that the tools in my Book
are seeds
out of which grow islands of
sanity in the sense that Meg Wheatley
uses it, or I, um, might call them
islands of compassion, where
people work together for the common good,
tossing out some of those
(23:17):
capitalist and,
uh, industrial values that have cost
us so dearly and work hard
at taking care of each other through hard times.
That hard times will come, I have no
doubt. How we will respond to them, that's
the big question. And the more we can
(23:38):
respond with smart and
compassionate community, the better off
we'll be.
>> Nicole Diroff (23:45):
I'm imagining Back to the Cliff and the
Tideline story, the
way in which the reality
of a, uh, tide coming in and out and those
dynamic changes
really forces,
but also invites a, uh,
(24:05):
collaboration that
is not necessarily needed when
people are living in
isolated settings at the top of the
cliff. I don't
know if
everyone has had experiences to
say that sort of
(24:27):
collaboration indeed is
beautiful and of the
divine, but I have come close
enough to moments to know
that there's something
really authentic about the human
spirit that comes alive
(24:47):
in that Kind of working together. That,
actually, I think is
an opportunity to be reclaimed.
>> Terry LaPage (24:56):
I agree. And we have a lot of learning to
do.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:00):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (25:00):
Yeah. The funny thing is, we are more
dependent now than any of
those interdependent communities have
ever been. But we use the medium of money
exchange.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:13):
Interesting.
>> Terry LaPage (25:15):
And to insulate
us from
realizing that there is a supply chain going all the way
around the globe, uh, growing
the food that I eat and
that there are massive machines
tearing up parts of
(25:35):
Texas to allow me to drive
my car. So
I'm so dependent.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:42):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (25:43):
But I think that I'm independent
because I can use my credit card.
>> Nicole Diroff (25:48):
Yeah, that's right.
>> Terry LaPage (25:51):
I guess one thing I'd like to bring up is
the idea of
not even attempting to be pure
and allowing ourselves to be
hypocrites. There is no way out of the system
of industrial consumer society.
Try moving to the boondocks and just create a whole new
(26:11):
set of problems. So instead of
trying to be pure, let's try to be
compassionate and wise and have fun.
>> Nicole Diroff (26:19):
Yeah. Thank you for that. I think
that is such an accurate description
of what so many people
are wrestling with. Feeling a real dissonance
between what they perceive as
reality and honesty about
the current situation and then an
inability to get pure. If that. If
(26:42):
that's the way we might frame it.
Embracing imperfection,
embracing compassion for one another and
oneself. I feel like a lot of that is an
internal. Is an internal wrestling.
>> Terry LaPage (26:56):
Yes. And I hear a lot of people doing
external wrestling with their partners and their
relatives, trying to get those other
people to get on board with the
same measures that they are taking to try to
respect the planet. I'm, uh,
not sure it's worth it.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:14):
Interesting. Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (27:16):
There's some grieving that has to be done to let
go of that. So much grieving. Did I mention
grieving? Grieving is a thing.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:23):
Grieving is a thing.
>> Terry LaPage (27:24):
We do a lot of grieving.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:25):
Yeah.
>> Terry LaPage (27:26):
Yeah. And we don't stay there.
>> Nicole Diroff (27:28):
The grief in that moment of
someone choosing certain practices
or behaviors in response to
the climate crisis and wanting others
to embrace those, also feeling
the tension of how to live with that
dynamic of feeling some conviction
around what they're already doing and
(27:50):
also not wanting to be, you know, a
downer or someone who seems really
focused on purity.
There's all kinds of layers of grief in that
situation.
>> Terry LaPage (28:03):
There's all kinds of grief all over this issue.
Plenty. Plenty on all sides.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is part of the reason
people want to pretend. And it's not
happening.
>> Nicole Diroff (28:16):
Thank you, Terry, for this Conversation.
And for this Book that you have
authored and for what you're working on
in the world.
>> Terry LaPage (28:25):
You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me.
I finally found other climate chaplains. What a thrill.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (28:51):
One thing that really stuck with me from that Conversation,
Nicole, that you had with Terry was this
idea of problem versus predicament.
It really got me thinking about how it
changes my definition in my own life of what it means
to be successful. I'm curious
how you responded to that in that moment and how your
ideas of success maybe have changed as a
(29:13):
result.
>> Terry LaPage (29:14):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Diroff (29:15):
Well, your question just points to maybe
the biggest thing my soul is wrestling with right
now. Over m the past
maybe year or so, doing the work that we do
at the BTS Center, I've really
wrestled with what my North
Star, what my guiding star is. As I,
as I live my life, I wrestle
(29:37):
with the structures that told me that kind of
that guiding star was owning a
home, having a job that
would provide the things I
need and you know, hopefully a little extra to
give back, that I'd have a, uh, strong
retirement account, to
have sort of the means to
(29:59):
be safe and secure. All of that
feels a little in question.
Success being defined much more in terms
of trusting ourselves and our
relationships. I want to be in a place where I
can trust my future self to handle hard
things.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (30:16):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Diroff (30:17):
That's more important than some of the other things I
drew security from. Trust
in the relationships that I am
investing in has become just more and more
poignant and important. How about for
you?
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (30:32):
As I was listening to this, I was thinking back to kind of the
conversations I've had regularly with my 20
something year old self who was typically
type A, privileged, ambitious, really well
intentioned, wanting to go out and change the
world. And over time I've begun to learn how
little influence I actually have on um, so much of
the world around me. When all is said and done,
(30:55):
um, what do I want to be known for in terms
of how I carried myself in my life? And I find
increasingly going back to the integrity I have
in relationships, the ways that I'm able to
respond in difficult moments and in
challenges and hopefully in ways that can bring out the best
in those who are around me. Much more
(31:15):
than where my career will end up or how many
books I publish or any of these other markers that in my
20s I thought that's what it means to live a meaningful life.
Um, I find myself
both wondering whether those things are really
feasible and also wondering whether they're
actually really that worthwhile.
>> Nicole Diroff (31:35):
Yeah.
Terry talked A little about this in the moment where
she talks about how this can come
up for hospice chaplains who
are accompanying, uh, people facing
their mortality rather acutely
and the way in which that leads to people
reflecting on their legacy.
(31:57):
We live in a time where
people who are aware of some
of the ways that our
individualistic and consumeristic
society has left
both people and planet harmed.
What does my life mean in that
context is such a special role
(32:19):
for chaplains to accompany that process?
Chaplains often are not asked to like, give
the answer, but more to go along for the
journey.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (32:29):
Yeah, that chaplain function is
played by different people in different
ways throughout our society. I think
about that role for local pastors in
communities who very much serve that chaplain
function for many of the people, especially within their congregation
and accompanying them through these difficult,
oftentimes unresolvable life
(32:51):
questions. Um, what does it mean to sit with someone who's
dying or in the face of a tragedy that is completely
senseless and may be open ended and unresolved and
may shape the rest of a person's life?
My parents were pastors and they talk about how they
would talk to other pastors who were farther on in their careers
and say, you know, what is the thing you most regretted
from the choices you've made that have brought you to the
(33:14):
place they're at? And almost all of them, without exception,
would say, I wish I had spent more time with
my children when they were young. Uh, that was
the career regret they brought with them. And that's about
really a ministry of presence. It's about,
uh, being with your kids as they begin to
navigate the predicaments that are part of growing
up. And I see this with my 8 year
(33:37):
old son and my 5 year old daughter
all the time, where they come with some really, really
big questions. We were at a field trip and we had a three hour drive
back and we talked about some pretty serious stuff in the
car. The witness that I've had from my elders
is, looking back, they say that was actually the most, um, important
thing. Not how, however many meetings you attended
(33:57):
and where you climbed the ladder to, but how you were present with the
people around you who you love.
>> Alison Cornish (34:02):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (34:04):
For the chaplains, I know one of the things that their work really
highlights to me is that when you are faced with
these predicaments, there
is genuine value to care.
>> Alison Cornish (34:15):
Mhm.
>> Nicole Diroff (34:16):
I also think about the ways that
chaplains who are being present
with those who have been most deeply
impacted by climate change
often leave those encounters with an
acute awareness of what's
happening in our world and what needs to change.
(34:37):
M I've gotten to know a chaplain here in Portland, Maine
who spends a significant amount of time
with our unhoused neighbors
and has watched the ways in which
the weather weirding
that's happening here in Maine is
impacting most acutely those who are
(34:57):
unhoused in these times.
There's, uh, kind of a common concept within climate
work that those who have done the
least to cause climate change are
unfortunately often those who
end up feeling its effects in
most harmful ways.
(35:18):
So she is drawn into
really being aware of the ways in which flooding
is increasing, the ways in which we have
more times when the ground is supposed to be frozen
that instead it's muddy, the ways in which the
atmosphere is holding more water and so
we get torrential downpours
(35:39):
because she's spending time with and
accompanying those who
are in a tent or
under a highway bypass.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (35:50):
Mhm. Mhm. Your
story reminds me as well about the importance of witness.
Sometimes when we're with folks, we can only do so much
to materially change their circumstances,
but being present with and seeing their
suffering is efficacious and
important in and of itself. Even if
(36:12):
there's nothing we can do.
>> Nicole Diroff (36:14):
That'S powerful and a very distinct
role of spiritual leaders in these
times that does not require a
degree.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (36:24):
Right? Right.
>> Nicole Diroff (36:25):
There are many spiritual caregivers in our
times and sometimes that may, that may
be the chaplain, but other times it is the
caring person who's around. I'm thinking of
another story where climate change
showed up for a chaplain who I know this
chaplain serves in a university setting
and shared with me that the head of
(36:48):
the environmental studies department at their
university came to the chaplain and said,
I really need help
because my students
are despairing. My
students who are learning the science,
I don't know how to continue to teach them
because they need care and
(37:10):
support with what they're learning.
So this is a space where first.
That chaplain became acutely aware
of what's causing the distress to these
students and needed to
draw on skills of meaning
making in challenging times, skills
of building strength through
(37:32):
relationship and care of one another,
and also providing some care for the
professors too. That's a
role for chaplains in institutions with many
layers, is actually to care for all the
layers of the system, including this
professor who cares enough for their students
to come and ask for this kind of help.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (37:55):
Mhm. This is where we can think
about the chaplaincy role inhabited by
chaplains, but as you say, by lots of
good Kind, compassionate people as part of what
brings communities back to one another. When I
think about Alison's story, in some ways
she chaplained that tree.
>> Nicole Diroff (38:14):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (38:15):
Through an untimely painful, traumatic
death.
>> Nicole Diroff (38:18):
Mhm.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (38:19):
That was a gift to her. It was a gift to her friends.
It was also a gift to the tree. What does
it mean to chaplain our other than
human kin that are also suffering in this moment
of planetary upheaval?
>> Nicole Diroff (38:33):
I know one person who's engaged
in trying to answer that is a woman
named Trebby Johnson who
founded an organization called Radical Joy
for Hard Times and is indeed a
good friend of Allison's, who we'll
bring back into this in just a moment.
(38:53):
Trebi has created rituals
at broken places in our
natural world, healing rituals that see
the place and aim
to create beauty from
brutality, from brokenness.
You don't need to hold a formal chaplain
identity to, from time to time,
(39:16):
assume a chaplain posture
and relate to the world in a way
that brings acceptance, care and
insight.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (39:25):
Yes, a very loud amen to that.
>> Nicole Diroff (39:28):
So let's bring Alison back
into this conversation. She
shared our, uh, grounding earlier, and as I
mentioned before, Allison
Cornish serves as the coordinator of the
Chaplaincy Initiative here at the BTS
Center. She transitioned from a, uh, first
career in historic preservation to
(39:51):
ministry, and she has always been
driven by a calling to address environmental
issues.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (39:57):
Alison has held various leadership roles, including
executive Director of Pennsylvania Interfaith Power and
Light. She is a valued member of the BTS
center team who helps us focus on
ecological grief, religious imagination,
and climate chaplaincy.
>> Nicole Diroff (40:13):
As, uh, someone involved with continuing education for
chaplains, Allison has spent much time
considering what it means to be a chaplain in a climate
changed world. We asked her to tell us what
chaplains do and how that work is being
updated and adapted for people living
in our rapidly changing world.
>> Alison Cornish (40:33):
Well, let's start with what chaplains
or those who offer spiritual care already
have. What is it that they're already doing?
First of all, and probably most importantly,
the chaplains that I'm aware of, that I'm
in relationship with, empathetically
and respectfully assist individuals and
(40:54):
communities in accepting and making difficult
choices and adapting to change.
Imagine, for example, a chaplain in a
hospital who's tending to somebody who
has just received a very difficult
diagnosis. That's a great example
of how somebody sits with
(41:14):
that individual and works on
what are the choices that we have here and how are you going
to have to adapt to this change in your life plan.
Chaplains understand trauma, and that is a
growing field trauma Informed. Whether
we call it education or therapy
or teaching, chaplains have to have an
(41:35):
awareness of how trauma affects
people and communities.
Chaplains offer rituals and practices that
honor communal loss and grief and move
people towards healing so that there's
a way of going forward. Even from
the darkest of times, chaplains
(41:55):
engage in theological reflection as a source of
meaning making. Now, not every chaplain identifies with
a faith tradition, but still that
idea of deep thinking
and taking what is offered
in a, uh, sharing from an individual
and really seeking the threads that will
(42:16):
allow meaning to emerge from
that. Something that we're having a lot of experience
of these days is coping with uncertainty and
holding questions that can't actually be
answered in this moment, in this time.
Tending to loss and grief
and brokenness is part of a chaplain's
work. Chaplains also use
(42:38):
a relational approach in serving people of all
faiths as well as those of no particular
faith identity. They're sort of the original
interfaith or multi faith
or pluralistic faith
practitioners. That's really important.
Chaplains cultivate and maintain hope and
resilience again for individuals
(43:00):
and for communities. And chaplains
offer caring for the caregivers. One of the
phrases that came out of my own chaplaincy training
is the patient is not always the person in the
bed. So the idea that the
people who are tending to the people
who have deep suffering also
need care is really important.
(43:23):
But hold on, those are some of the
things that chaplains do in the normal course of
their training and their work.
But when we start thinking about a climate changed
world, there are some further
or even different spiritual needs which are
arising from our changing climate.
And some of the things that we hear from
(43:45):
our chaplains and that we also are in Conversation
with them about are people are holding some
really grave doubts about the
possibility of a positive future.
What does the future look like that's different from
today? And is it moving
towards the apocalyptic or is
it moving towards something that looks like the
(44:08):
past? People are really
questioning this idea
of progress and that things always look
better or uh, are better. We
know that climate migration is
in process right now
and that there's displacement from long term homes and
lands and rootlessness and in some
(44:31):
cases the likelihood that returning to home
is simply not possible if where
home is, is now underwater
or has been destroyed by multiple
wildfires. A lot of people are
feeling a, uh, sense of
disempowerment and feeling like they're a
victim of global or existential and
(44:51):
external conditions. It's like, where's
agency right now? Where can
we make choices or decisions
in the midst of something that is so big
feels so overwhelming and so powerful.
Young adults are facing
questions about their future
that even one generation back
(45:14):
did not need to face at that age and
in that way and in that formative moment of
their lives. So for a university
or college chaplain to not be thinking
about climate change, I think would be a real,
a real drawback to the
authenticity and the veracity of their
work. So that would be, um, an
(45:36):
obvious place.
Everyone needs a Climate Changed 101
someplace in their lives to understand
what's happening, what the anticipated effects,
particularly focusing on systems vulnerable
to climate, such as displacement and loss
of homes and changing food supply and water
(45:57):
issues and everything else that goes along that
I think we all need, like a base
understanding not only of the science of
climate change, but also of the effects and the way in
which they're already playing out and will continue
to. Some of the disaster.
Spiritual care that's been offered is
extremely important, but I
(46:20):
think we need to reimagine
what the life cycle of disasters are,
particularly since the anticipation
and preparation stages are now
much longer. We know much more
about how to prepare for a
disaster, but also the recovery stage. If
we start thinking about
(46:43):
man and Nature made
human and Nature made disasters, which I'm not sure
there's really a clear dividing line around those anymore,
we're moving from acute situations
that could resolve back to some
sort of normative state to a chronic
pattern where we have
(47:04):
one disaster after another after another. So
that really changes what recovery looks
like across the board. At
the BTS Center, I think we're looking at theological,
doctrinal and spiritual resources for sense
making meaning making
resilience and hope. So
(47:25):
inviting, uh, people to really dig deep into
their home traditions or adopted
traditions and see what's there that can really
help us move through these times by
building resilience and hope.
The justice issues related to a, uh, climate
change world, particularly around diversity,
(47:45):
equity and inclusion, are only
going to deepen. So that
level of education that we offer to
chaplains I think could be,
uh, really beefed up a lot.
And along with that, there are unique needs
for specific populations, whether those are
(48:05):
elders or people living with a
disability, children and youth,
lgbtqia, uh, and
plus individuals and communities, immigrants and
those incarcerated.
Elevating m and teaching the ways that Nature
can heal is incredibly
(48:27):
important and particularly
versus what I mentioned earlier about
losing our faith in the natural world.
I think that re engaging
with the natural world, particularly after
a disaster that has affected
somebody, is incredibly important.
Work that chaplains could be
(48:48):
cultivating and then
normalizing, normalizing
grief, normalizing
trauma, informed care, normalizing
climate displacement and the stories that relate
to that. All of the things that we might
see as outliers or one
offs, we need to start thinking
(49:11):
about how to bring that into this is
the way that we live now.
Yeah, that's a small list, but there you
go.
>> Nicole Diroff (49:22):
Thank you again Allison for sharing your.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (49:25):
Experience and expertise
in each episode of climate change. We invite you
to consider taking the next step. Allison
is actively involved in a BTS center initiative
called Climate Conscious Chaplaincy. We offer
a series of programs, an emerging network and a growing
collection of resources for chaplains serving in a
(49:45):
variety of settings.
>> Nicole Diroff (49:46):
In addition to the videos and other resources on our
website, we also provide opportunities for you to
connect with others who are interested in doing
chaplain work through a climate change lens.
To learn more and take our chaplain survey,
visit thebtscenter.org
under the Initiatives tab. Select
(50:07):
Climate Conscious Chaplaincy.
In addition to engaging with those
resources, I invite you
as a possible, meaningful next step
to think about a young person in your
life and how you might
accompany them in this climate changed
(50:27):
world. That could be simply
through a conversation where you
accompany and witness to what
they're experiencing. It also may be an
opportunity to show up for something that
they care about. As
you consider relating to a young person or
young people on these big topics,
(50:50):
I highly recommend a Book to you
called In Deep Spiritual
Care for Young People in a Climate Crisis.
The Book is written by Talitha Amadea, um
Ajo and it's really
good to.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (51:05):
Provide us with more possible next steps is one of our
producers, Anna Barron.
>> Anna Barron (51:10):
Thanks Ben.
I have just a couple more invitations for
you, our listeners. As Nicole
mentioned, the BTS center has a page dedicated
to Climate Conscious Chaplaincy. I invite
you to visit it under the initiatives
tab@thebtscenter.org and
click on the Interest form button. To stay up to date
(51:31):
through email, go ahead and fill out the
survey on the page as well to help inform our
chaplaincy programming. If you are
able and willing, I also want to invite
you to sign up to volunteer as a Red Cross
Spiritual Care Team member. This
position is listed under Volunteer Opportunities on the
(51:51):
Red Cross website, which we will link in
the show notes. I encourage you to at least
visit the site and learn more about this opportunity.
Lastly, I invite you to seek out a
chaplain in your own community, sit down and
have a conversation with them about the climate
crisis. Figure out if, uh, volunteering
(52:11):
as a community service chaplain might be
something that you're interested in. As
always, if you do any of these action steps,
please feel free to share them along with this episode on
your social media so that some of your friends might be
inspired to do the same. There is no
pressure to do any or all of these next
steps. We just want these to be a resource for
(52:34):
you as you figure out ways to engage in this
huge and overwhelming topic.
Thanks again Ben and Nicole for this insightful
episode.
>> Nicole Diroff (52:44):
Thank you, Anna and um, thank
you.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (52:47):
For joining us today for this episode of the Climate
Changed Podcast.
>> Nicole Diroff (52:51):
Our guest next month is Jose
Aguto. He was Executive Director of
Catholic Climate Covenant and served with the Friends
Committee on uh, National Legislation, the National
Congress of American Indians, EPA's
American Indian Environmental Office, and the
10th Mountain Division of the U.S. army.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (53:11):
Jose not only gave me a deeper insight into the
Roman Catholic approach to climate change, but he also
revealed the challenges and, uh, the incredible
possibilities in organizing Catholics in the
USA to embrace climate work.
>> Nicole Diroff (53:24):
Listeners, you also have a chance
to be on our next episode. We are
curious about Chaplain's stories, hearing
Terry and Allison speak about the role of
chaplains. When did you experience
the work of a chaplain? Was it at college, in the
military, in prison, in a hospital,
or elsewhere? We want to know. Tell us
(53:46):
about your experience and if.
You like, add your thoughts about how.
Chaplains can be active in the climate movement.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (53:54):
Or are you a chaplain yourself and you have a
story to share? Feel free to text or call us. The
number is
207-200-6986
plus 1. If calling from outside the USA,
that number again is
207-200-6986
or email us
podcasthebtscenter.org
(54:16):
that's
podcasthebtscenter.org
Our podcast is produced.
>> Nicole Diroff (54:22):
By Peterson Toscano and Anna
Barron. Thanks Peterson and Anna.
It is a project of the BTS center in
beautiful Portland, Maine.
>> Ben Yosua-Davis (54:31):
Visit thebtscenter.org to learn more about our
many in person and online programs and the resources
we share. That website again is
thebtscenter.org here's hoping
you're finding faith, life and love in a, uh, climate
changed world.
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