The Power of Ritual and Story with Brian McLaren and Favianna Rodriguez

Episode Transcript
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Ben Yosua-Davis (00:02):
You are listening to Climate Changed, a
podcast about pursuing faith,life, and love in a
climate-changed world, hosted byme, Ben Yosua Davis

Nicole Diroff (00:12):
and me, Nicole Diroff. Climate Changed features
guests who deepen theconversation while also stirring
the waters.

The Climate Changed podcast is a project of
The BTS Center. Thank you forjoining us for this exciting
episode. We're thrilled to haveBrian McLaren with us.

Brian is an influential author, speaker and
activist known for his work on anew kind of Christianity. He'll
share insights from his latestbook and discuss how faith
communities can play a vitalrole in addressing climate
change. And as always, before weend the episode, we will provide
you some meaningful next stepsyou can take inspired by our

(00:54):
conversation. Here we are backfor Season Three. Season Three.
Really fun to be here with you.Ben, I can't believe it three
seasons.

I know. Yeah, that's really exciting. People
seem to keep wanting us to comeback. And it was so exciting to
lead off the season talking tosomeone like Brian, who is not
just a really great thinker, buta deeply empathetic listener and
communicator. It felt like avery genuine dialogue between
the two of us, which was justamazing. What are you excited

(01:31):
about for this season Nicole?

Well, I've dusted off my microphone and fancy
headphones. I'm excited for ourtheme this season. We are
exploring climate courage andthe common good, both of those
things, I have been thinkingabout a lot. What does courage
look like in a climate-changedworld, and how can we be

(01:55):
engaging with one another in away that builds the common good?
So we get to talk to lots ofcool people along those themes.
Another thing I'll shout out iswe have expanded our production
team from the amazing PetersonToscano, who's been with us for
all three seasons, to include aintern this year. Anna Barron is

(02:19):
our podcast production intern,and it has been so fun to have
an expanded team, and reallyreflects the way The BTS Center
does its work with lots and lotsof collaborative leadership.
What about you Ben?

I was gonna say I'm excited because we are now
the best organized podcast ever.This, of course, doesn't matter
to any of you who are listening,but for me, who lives in like,
the heart of three childrenunder eight, chaos, it really
makes my heart go, pitter pat.I'm also really excited for the
diversity of guests. We havepeople from a lot of different
social locations, a lot ofdifferent religious traditions.

(02:55):
Several times as I think aboutthe conversations we're offering
where I went, and I hope some ofyou who are listening might go,
Oh, I didn't expect to hearthat, or that's an insight I
hadn't thought of. And I'mreally looking forward to the
places where we can share oursurprise with the people who are
listening.

Agreed. As those of you who have listened in
other seasons may know, in eachepisode of Climate Changed, we
provide a space for us to clearour heads from the busyness of
the day and center ourselves, sothat we might best listen.

In a moment, you will hear the conversation I
had with Brian McLaren, butfirst, we want to take a moment
to center and ground ourselves.Favianna Rodriguez wrote the
essay, "Harnessing CulturalPower." It appears in the
anthology, All We Can Save.Favianna is an artist, activist

(03:51):
and cultural organizer based inOakland, California. She is
widely recognized for hersignificant contributions and
using art as a powerful tool forsocial change. Her work focuses
on critical issues such asimmigration, racial justice,
gender equity and climatechange. For our grounding today.

(04:12):
Favianna Rodriguez will readfrom her essay "Harnessing
Cultural Power."

Favianna Rodriguez (04:16):
The Power of Culture lies in the power of
story. Stories change people.Stories change and activate
people. And people have thepower to change norms, cultural
practices and systems. Storiesare like individual stars. For

(04:40):
thousands of years, humans usedthe stars to tell stories and to
help make sense of their lives,to orient them on the planet.
Stories work in the same way.When many stars coalesce around
similar themes, they form anarrative constellation that can
disrupt business as usual. Theyreveal patterns and help

(05:04):
illuminate that which was onceobscured. The powerful shine in
one story can inspire otherstories. We need more
transformational stories so thatwe can connect the dots and
shift narratives. The climatemovement has largely left
storytellers and culture out ofits strategy toolbox. Now is the

(05:29):
time to change that. In thesocial justice movement, I've
observed that our work is oftencentered on what we are against.
We are clear about what we don'twant, the No, and that's
understandable when ourcommunities are constantly being
attacked. Our movements becomeour first line of defense, but

(05:53):
we cannot envision a future whenwe're stuck in fight or flight.
We must also create a culturethat is about our Yes, and this
is where we can rely on artists.For example, artist Molly
Crabapple, writer Naomi Kleinand filmmaker Avi Lewis,
collaborated with AlexandriaOcasio-Cortez to create a

(06:17):
powerful, illustrative videoabout what the future could look
like if we have the Green NewDeal in the United States. This
piece of art grounded in AOCspersonal story went viral, and
is one of the few pop culturepieces to date about the future

(06:37):
that's possible with a Green NewDeal. Imagine an outpouring of
cultural content that shows us afuture where political, economic
and cultural power are justlydistributed, and humans are in a
regenerative relationship withnature. There must be room for

(06:58):
creation that is captivating andirresistible. We can use our
radical imagination to visualizeand manifest another world, and
we can make that world feel realthrough cultural products, like
TV shows, films, comic books,images or songs. The stories we

(07:20):
tell will determine whether oursociety declines and self
destructs, or whether we canheal and thrive. Remember that
every story is based on aparticular perspective on the
world. We must always considerhow an author's point of view
affects the myths that form ourreality. The Nigerian novelist

(07:44):
and poet Chinua Achebe got itright when he said: "Until the
lions have their own historians,the history of the hunt will
always glorify the hunter."Let's ask ourselves, who is
telling the story or creatingthe image? What values do they

(08:07):
espouse? Whom do I see? Whom doI not see? What worldview is
being communicated? How isnature treated? Who stands to
gain from this way of seeing theworld? Who do they blame for the
problem? Who would benefit fromthe solutions they offer? As I

(08:32):
stand in my power as an artistand climate justice leader, I
now understand that it's time towrite a new story. I can't heal
my community or myself withouthealing the planet, and we can't
save the planet without healinginjustice. So the question is,

(08:57):
Will you stand with me inharnessing culture for the
betterment of Earth, to savelife as we know It? With love
and an unbound imagination.Favianna.

Thank you, Favianna, for sharing that with
us. To hear Favianna read theentire essay and to learn more
about her work, visitclimatechangedpodcast.org.

(10:06):
We're excited to introduce ourmain guest today, someone who
has been a guiding light in therealms of faith, activism and
public theology.

We're joined by Brian McLaren, an author,
activist and public theologian.Brian is known for advocating a
new kind of Christianity that isjust generous and inclusive. He
holds a vision of people of allfaiths and cultures working
together for the common good.

Before becoming a renowned voice in theology,
Brian was a college Englishteacher and pastor. Now he is a
core faculty member and the Deanof Faculty at the Center for
Action and Contemplation. Healso co hosts the podcast
Learning How to See and is anAuburn Senior Fellow.

In addition to all of that, Brian has written
several influential books. Hismost recent works include Faith
After Doubt, Do I Stay aChristian? And his newest

release, Life After Doom (11:00):
Wisdom and Courage for a World Falling
Apart.

Brian's voice and perspective are invaluable,
especially as we navigate thesechallenging times. We're
thrilled to have him with ustoday to discuss his insights on
climate change and how we canfind hope and take action in the
face of environmental crises. Ichatted with Brian and asked him
to tell us about doom, hope,courage and of course, what does

(11:28):
it mean to lead with peace, hopeand love in the face of this
profound uncertainty that we'reencountering in this moment.
We'll share the conversationwith you, then Nicole and I will
talk about our reactions andresponses to it.

(11:48):
Many of us have grown up withthe assumption that everything
will turn out all right in theend, yes, I think in some ways,
we often feel like we are on theset of a superhero movie where
everything seems reallyperilous. You can have comfort,
because you know, at the end ofthis, someone's gonna swoop in
and save the day, and it willall be fine. One of the things
that I noticed in your book isthat you begin by suggesting

(12:10):
that we can no longer make thisassumption.

Brian McLaren (12:13):
Yes, there is something in a lot of us that
just gets used to succeeding andcoming out on top. That's
especially true for whitepeople, and it's especially true
for white Christians. And thereasons for that are not all
positive. People might think,yes, our faith gives us a great,

(12:35):
you know, proclivity towardssuccess, but actually, our faith
gave us some permissions to dosome pretty horrible things over
the last 500 years. In a certainsense, white people have gotten
used to coming out on top andhaving things turn out in their
favor, for a very long time.Those of us who are used to
success and winning andeverything turning out well,

(12:56):
what we need to do is look atthe rest of the world and
realize that for an awful lot ofpeople, things have not turned
out okay.

I wonder, for our listeners who might not yet
be familiar with your book oryour work, if you could just
briefly kind of lay out for uswhat you share about this in
Life After Doom.

Yes, so the doom in the book is not the end of
the world, the doom is thefeeling many of us feel now and
have been feeling some time. I'mlooking at doom as an
experience, a feeling that theinstitutions we've trusted to
get us this far do not seemcapable to get us where we need

(13:35):
to go, the coping strategiesthat have worked for us to get
where we are now don't seem towork going forward. When you
have this feeling that that youdon't see a way to get where we
need to go, that creates acrisis for your hope. I have a
friend who's a clinicalpsychologist, a research

(13:55):
psychologist, and one of thethings he studies is hope. And
he just says, look, hope is oneof the most important
psychological characteristicsfor mental health. But he
describes hope is, hope is whenyou see a way to reach your goal
and you have the will to getthere. It's way making and will

(14:17):
making. You know, willpower andway power we could say. Hope
goes through a crisis when youhave a goal you'd like to
achieve, but you don't see theway to get there. A lot of
people have never exercisedtheir hope in that way. It
becomes a self reinforcinghabit, because what we tend to

(14:37):
do is lower our goals to what wecan see, to ways we can see. And
there are certain times whenthat's not enough, to lower your
goal to what looks easy. In thebook, what I try to do is to say
we are in a complex situation,and the feeling of doom is
unavoidable for those of us withour eyes open. Maybe one of the

(15:00):
main contributions of the bookis I try to explain what people
are often calling our multicrisis, or poly crisis, and then
I try to offer four scenarios ofhow things might turn out for
us. I don't think we can knowfor certain how things will turn
out for us. One way to put itvery simply is to say we know we

(15:22):
have a problem in how we livewith the planet. Climate change
is a super obvious and urgentexpression of that, but there
are so many expressions of it,the loss of topsoil, the
acidification of oceans, themelting of ice, the depletion of
fish stocks, the hugereplacement of wildlife by cows,

(15:43):
pigs, chickens, you know, bydomestic livestock. And so this
first crisis is that we are notliving with a planet in a way
that is sustainable, and we'rereaching cliffs that we're going
to go over if we don't deal withthat. Our political systems are
not equipped to help us dealwith a problem of this

(16:05):
magnitude. Right at the time, weneed our political systems to
step in and help us makechanges. Our political systems
are more polarized than they'veever been, and there is this
pull toward authoritarianism.And the authoritarians are
people who, instead of usingauthority to help us face

(16:26):
reality, they gain power byhelping people deny reality and
shift the blame. And so that'sthe second element. Third
element is our economic systemdoesn't know how to stop doing
what it's doing and what it'sdoing is destroying the planet,
and our economic system keepsgiving more money and power to a

(16:48):
tiny group of super, super,super rich people who use that
money to buy media and buypolitical influence to keep
their interests first andforemost. Finally, right when we
might hope that our religiouscommunities would give us some
sanity and wisdom, very often,they're either part of the

(17:09):
problem, sucked into the vortexof polarization and so on, or
they're actually aiding andabetting the worst elements of
our situation. So when you putall those together, that's when
you realize, gosh, just gliblysaying everything will be fine
does not feel like being upbeat.It feels like being in denial.

I remember the first time I encountered this
analysis. It was actuallythrough Margaret Wheatley's, Who
Do We Choose to Be? She was aguest last season. I remember as
I was reading her analysis,which is not that dissimilar to
what you just described, havingto get up multiple times and go
for a walk in the woods and getmy heart rate down. I'm
wondering, as you share thisstory with people for the first

(17:54):
time, you may be sharing it, infact, with listeners right now,
for the first time. Yeah, whatdo you experience are people's
most common reactions, emotions,what they feel in their bodies,
and what might you offer as away for them to be able to sit
with what you're offering, whichis maybe it won't all turn out
"all right" in the end?

Ben, before I do that, I mean, when you described
having to get up and take awalk, that's exactly what I had
to do. I wonder, could you justtalk a little bit more about
that? Because I I'd love to hearyou know a little more about
your own emotional andbiological response to that.

What I remember when when reading that, for me,
it all was right in the pit ofmy stomach. It felt like the
bottom of my stomach wasdropping out the way that
happens when you hear reallybad, surprising news, a relative
or a dear friend dies. This is alot I can't sit here marinating
this stew of feelings that I'mhaving right now.

As you know, I'm sure psychologists tell us that
taking a walk is really one ofthe best things that a person
can do when when those feelingscome upon us, literally being
outdoors means that we'relooking to the left and the
right, and that activates ourbrains in ways that help bring
calm, as opposed to just havingour eyes focused on one point

(19:14):
where we are sort of broughtinto an inner vortex of fear.
Nature itself has mysteriousways of helping us. So as I
mentioned, with my religiousbackground, we sort of had this
idea that the worse things got,the better it was for us,
because God had planned todestroy the world. This might
sound crazy to some people, butthere are hundreds of millions

(19:38):
of people who believe this, thatGod has already got the
timetable set for when God willdestroy the world. So we should
be happy that the world'sgetting closer to destruction,
because that just proves thatour theology is right, that we
understand God's plans for thefuture correctly. It's horrible
that people could say, I'm happythat terrible things are about

(20:02):
to happen, because it will provemy group right. I didn't buy
that. Now that this book is outthere, a friend of mine called
me the other day and said, Howare you doing? He said, I'm sure
this was not easy to process andwrite, and I'm sure there's some
stress and saying things thatsome folks aren't ready for and

(20:23):
I said, The strange thing is, Ifeel this kind of relief and
this strange kind of joy. Itfeels inherently rewarding to
try to tell the truth. It feelsa relief to say, I want to want
to know the worst of it, let meface it, and that rings true
with you.

That was my experience. That's experience of
the leaders that I've I'veworked with, which was not my
anticipation. I thought whenpeople began to get in contact
with this reality, I expectedthat fear and anxiety were going
to be the dominant reactions,and certainly a lot of people
experience them. But what I wasshocked by is I remember working
with a group of people, and wewere framing this engagement

(21:01):
with a climate crisis as aspiritual crisis, and one that's
complex and has deep roots andis not that a problem to be
solved is actually, perhaps noteven the right way to frame it.
And then we send people intobreakout groups to discuss their
reactions, emotionally andbodily to what they heard. And
the most common reaction wasrelief. They're like, Oh my
goodness. Someone said it, it'sout loud. I don't feel like I'm

(21:23):
crazy anymore. I feel the senseof like there's this burden of
like, why can't we save theworld that I can, I can set
down. Actually the experience, Ithink, for me, and it sounds
like for you, and certainly manyof the people that I've worked
with, is it actually frees upall this energy to begin dealing
with reality, because you don'thave to keep it at bay anymore.

And we have no idea what kind of imagination
will be unleashed when we're inpermission giving spaces to try
to face a very different realitythan any of us would have wished
for, because there really isenergy that goes to keeping
things at bay. One of the thingsthat's happened to me is I feel

(22:04):
like I've been given the Bibleback in a new way, because my
introduction to the Bible was bypeople who were beneficiaries of
this destructive economicsystem, and they interpreted the
Bible. They worked very hard tomake sure that we emphasize
certain verses and avoided otherverses entirely, and that we

(22:25):
were given spins andinterpretations of things that
would make us good, productivemembers of this society, without
ever questioning it, or at leastwithout questioning it too
deeply. And in that light, it'smade me think about passages
that have been deeplyproblematic to me in the
Gospels. We call themapocalyptic passages. We thought

(22:47):
they were about Jesus talkingabout the end of the world, but
now I've become convinced theseare passages where Jesus is
looking around, and I know thisis in nobody's creed about
Jesus, but that Jesus wasactually smart and he looked
around at people around him, andhe said, if we keep going the
way we're going, we're going toend up in a in a revolution, a

(23:09):
violent revolution against theRomans. I know what the Romans
can do. I'm no idiot. And if werevolt against the Romans, they
will crush us. They'll tear ourtemple down, they will destroy
us and crucify us and kill us bythe thousands. Those weren't
Jesus talking about the end ofthe space time universe. Those

(23:30):
were Jesus trying to warn peopleabout how bad things could get
if they didn't change theirvalue system and change their
vision and so on. In that light,there's this one passage he
says, things are going to getbad, and then things are going
to get worse, and then thingsare even going to get worse.
This is only the beginning ofthe birth pangs. For all the

(23:53):
times I've ever read or heardthat verse, I never noticed the
word birth pangs. It's not theseare the death throes that lead
to our complete and utterannihilation. Rather, if the
better world that we desire hasa chance of being born, it
requires the downfall of thiscurrent system for something to

(24:13):
be born. This amount ofdisruption has to happen that
verse sort of unleashed in methis realization that there is
so much human power keepingthings the way they are that
it's going to take disruptionfor something better to happen.
In that sense, understand thatthe disruption is unavoidable

(24:35):
and it's not our fault. It'snecessary.

That strikes me as such a different message than
the common creeds I often hearin climate communication, and I
think, don't think theseconcerns are illegitimate, but
often there's this focus on youcan't tell people that it's
going to be bad. You can't tellpeople that they're going to
have to make sacrifices. Youjust have to focus on
possibilities and successes andlook at the solar panels and
look at the policy. Right, yes,but I'm hearing you say

(25:01):
something actually quitedifferent.

In the research for my book, there was one quote
that I came across from thebrilliant Nigerian philosopher
Bayo Akomolafe. It just raised aquestion. And I have to say,
when I read that question, itsent a shiver up my spine. He
said, What if our response tothe problem is a part of the

(25:25):
problem? What if our response tothe problem perpetuates and
intensifies the problem? We'veall seen angry parent whose
child is having a meltdown andthe parent starts to yell at the
child? Well, there's a problem.The child's having a meltdown,
but if you yell at a childhaving a meltdown, it will not

(25:46):
make the meltdown better, right?So your response to the problem
guarantees the problem is goingto get worse. So we face this
set of problems that if weminimize the depth of our need
for change, we will respond tothe problem in a way that could
make the problem worse. 200 300years down the road, we could

(26:07):
solve the problem now and feellike great winners to make three
or four generations down theroad have to face something that
makes our current problem seemtame, right? But I guess the
other thing I should say, inresponse to your question, is
that people are right when theysay we have to be careful about

(26:27):
being too negative, because ifwe scare people too much,
they'll shut us down, andthey'll be more susceptible to
the lies, the enticing,seductive lies of authoritarians
and con artists, and there areplenty of them out out there
ready to tell them seductive andenticing lies and comforting
lies. That's, I suppose, therisk I'm taking in this book.

(26:50):
I'm saying I think there comes apoint where some people have to
be willing to face their fear,because the wisdom we need to
get through this is only wisdomthat can come to people who face
their fear.

What does it mean to be honest and also
empowering so we don't end upwith either having to keep
turning up the intensity of ourrose colored glasses on the one
hand, or making people feel sohorrible that they just all want
to hide in a dark closet andwait for the apocalypse to come
on the other end.

Yes. Well, first of all, I, having been a pastor
for 24 years, I know how hardthis is, and I wouldn't, I would
be a liar if I said, Oh, this isan easy problem to solve. This
would, to me, be a great booktitle that nobody would ever
buy. It would be called Leadingby Anxiety, and this is would be

(27:44):
where a pastor might say, I needto be honest with you all,
there's some things I'm really,really concerned about in the
world that relate to ourcongregation. I'm really
concerned about them, but Idon't feel free to talk about
them, because I don't think you,a lot of us would be ready for
them. And if you ever want toask me in private about those
things, I'll be glad to tellyou, but I just want you to know

(28:07):
there are a lot of things Idon't think you're ready to
handle. What that will do isit'll tell some people, wow, our
pastor is a deep person, and ourpastor is thinking about things
I'm not thinking about, and ourpastor is honest, and I don't
think I'm ready for it, so I'mnot going to go talk to him, but
other people would say, I wantto share this burden with our

(28:27):
pastor, and I want to knowwhat's on his or her mind. It's
something that I don't thinkmost people get taught in
seminary, leading by anxiety andputting curiosity in the
equation, not just clarity.

It strikes me as you share that, that that
actually there's mutuality,there's invitation. You don't
have to come with answers or astrategy, but invite people into
shared space. So I'm wonderinglike, what does it mean to seek
the common good when so much ofwhat we would value as the
common good, like the health ofour shared home, this earth

(29:04):
feels like it's very genuinelyout of our control.

The first thing I would say is that for those of
us who have the Bible as aresource, we can go back and
rediscover the Bible as anecological library and teaching
us wisdom. It will allow us tostop reading the Bible, making a
major genre category mistake,treating it as if it's supposed

(29:30):
to be a memo from God that dropsout of heaven, and instead of
understanding it as a beautifuland dangerous gift from our
ancestors, beautiful because itasks really important questions
that we need to have askeddangerous because it's very easy
for us to abuse and we have along history of abusing it. So

(29:50):
the first thing I'd say is wecould actually start using the
Bible as the indigenousecological literature that it
was intended to be. And one ofthe things I hope this book will
be helpful to Christian leadersand other spiritual leaders for
is that it will help. It willgive them, kind of some tools,
and in a couple of chapters thatreally focus on this. Without

(30:12):
even doing that, we can behaving conversations among
ourselves. I think this is partof what you are about at BTS
Center of helping people imagineleadership in a climate-changed
world like here's a way to sayit. What virtues are people
going to need in the next 10years? In the next 20 years, if

(30:34):
we were to start saying what arethose virtues, we could start
highlighting and prioritizingthe teaching of those virtues
because people expect us toteach virtues that's part of our
an expected part of our job. Wecan teach those virtues if they
don't even if they aren't evenwilling to believe the realities

(30:56):
that we're in a climate-changedworld, right? One last thing
that's related to virtues that Ithink is under appreciated in
religious settings. I've I'vecome to believe more and more
that religion is about theformation of desire. Religion
fails when it only tries to tampdown negative desire, instead of

(31:18):
fanning and stimulating andencouraging and glorifying
needed and good desires.Thinking about what desires
people need right now, that's abig deal, and we can talk about
the desire to do good for theearth and the desire to do good
for our neighbor. We can fan theflame of that desire without

(31:38):
people having to understand ourdiagnosis about our current
civilization,

If I may, just indulge in a brief moment of
fanboy confession, when I firstgot a chance to read an advanced
copy of your book, it was a PDFon my phone. I read half of it
sitting on the couch after thekids went to bed. This little
tiny screen cheering out loud atmultiple, multiple sections,
because you named the realitythat I had been holding quietly,

(32:06):
that my colleagues havesometimes held with me, about
the convictions about what ourreligious roots, and in our
case, like what are ourChristian roots have to offer
us, what it means to lead wellin this moment, about the
dispositions we need, thevirtues, and having someone just
named that out loud who is notone of us was enormously
validating. Part of what youknow, seeking the common good in

(32:29):
a moment like this does is wecan invite people to the extent
to which they're possible tocome into this shared reality
and then say, if we accept thatthis is the reality, what does
it what does it mean to live ameaningful life? The word hope
sometimes drives me crazy inclimate conversations. People
say we mustn't give up hope, andthen they cite technology and
policy solutions. But for me,when I look at the Christian

(32:51):
tradition, hope is not aboutoutcome. Yes, hope is about
meaning, and hope starts withits roots in suffering. Yes,
when I engage in thatreorientation, it allows me to
understand how the meaning thatI hope to embody in my own life
does not have to be dependent onoutcome, on what happens in this

(33:13):
community that I care about,that there could be a sense that
if I carry myself in a certainway, in a way for me that
embodies the life and teachingsof Jesus, that is actually
enough, and I do not needexternal things to happen to
internally validate myself.

Oh, so beautifully said. So beautifully
said. One of the quotes in thebook that really is continuing
to help me is from Vaclav Havel,who bears the unique distinction
of having been a president and apoet and playwright. I'm
paraphrasing here, but he said,hope is not the conviction that

(33:51):
things will turn out as we wish.Hope is the conviction that some
things are worth doing no matterhow they turn out. This is the
issue we have to disentanglehope from outcomes. When people
say hope, what they often meanis the will to live or the
commitment to not give upbecause they know it will be

(34:12):
tempting to give up.

One of the things I also wanted to share
that I love about your book ishow you include a dear reader
letter at the end of everychapter, helping people process
what you're sharing and theirreactions to it. As we're
finishing up today, you might bewilling to share a dear listener
message with those who arelistening to this conversation
today.

I'd be honored to. If all of this is new to you
and you don't know what we'retalking about, it's okay just
give yourself permission to knowwhat you know and to admit what
you don't know, and to becurious about what you're
curious about, and to be in aprocess of waking up to
realities that other people havebeen awake to. I was surprised

(34:55):
on the issue of climate change,to find out that people have
known about climate change sincebefore the Civil War, there have
been people who knew things Ididn't know for my whole life,
and I'm just waking up to itnow. That's okay. So the first
thing I'd say it's okay if someof this is new to you. Second
thing I'd say is, it's not yourfault. We didn't create this

(35:17):
problem. We inherited it. Wedidn't create the way of
thinking that has caused so muchtrouble and will cause so much
trouble. We inherited it. Noneof us know what's going to
happen. None of us know thatit's going to be a nightmare,
what I call scenario four in thebook, and none of us know if
it's going to be a scenario oneor two that have a little more

(35:39):
light and hope to them. We don'tknow what's going to happen, but
we can choose how we want toshow up. That's what I hope and
desire for all of us, is that wecan be intentional in how we
show up. And you know what thatwill make life better no matter
what the outcomes are.

Thank you, Brian, so much for the wisdom
you've offered us. Thank you forhelping us wake up, and as you
continue in that process, ourprayers and our best wishes go
with you as we all try to figureout what it means to show up in
moments like this one.

Thanks so much, Ben. What a pleasure to be with
you.

I just want to give a shout out to Brian a
thank you for writing this book.It is really going to help us do
our work at The BTS Center.There's a few places I want to
dig deeper with you Ben, as wethink about some of what Brian
is raising for us. One of thoseplaces is eschatology, which is

(36:59):
a fancy theology seminary typeword that talks about an
imagined End of Times issometimes how it's introduced.
Brian talks about his ownupbringing and needing to really
move beyond an understanding ofend times with God's plan to

(37:20):
destroy the world, imaginingthat has led to quite a bit of
injustice in his reckoning. Thatwas not the Christianity that I
was raised in. Mine was probablyinspired by a sense of Dr King's
vision and words that the arc ofthe moral universe is long, but

(37:44):
it bends towards justice, thissense that it will all be well.
It will all be well in this timewhere we're looking at these
different scenarios Brian'sputting in front of us, trying
to get honest about our reality.Do I need to give up the sense

(38:05):
that it'll all be well in thesame way that Brian needed to
give up the idea that God's planis to destroy the world? Maybe
there's something differentabout the arc of the moral
universe being long, and it'llall be fine for those of us who
are already pretty fine, maybethat's where I end up on that.

This makes me think about a transformation
that I've experienced since Ithink it was 2016 during the
presidential election, HillaryClinton versus Donald Trump, and
I remember one of the lines thatHillary Clinton used with this
line love Trump's hate, whichwas very clever, and also, as
they think we learned, prettylimiting. And I remember seeing

(38:51):
the day after the election thenumber of people who are
experiencing existential crisesbecause Donald Trump won for
exactly the kind of the reasonthat you're you're talking
about, like, doesn't the arc ofthe universe bend towards
justice? It's not a long arc.It's supposed to be a short arc.
And those of us who are inpositions of privilege are
supposed to kind of like, reachand grab that arc and drag it to

(39:14):
the ground. And of course, we'recapable of doing it in very
quick order. Then you have thesemoments where you go, Oh,
actually, that's not the waylife works. Yeah, we know this
personally, most of usexperience tragedy and suffering
in our lives, but alsosocietally. You don't have to be
even that devoted a student ofhistory to know that things go

(39:37):
sideways and very poorly all thetime. If there is that arc, it
can't be tied to optimism orpower. That arc has to be like a
really, really, really long arcthat goes far beyond our
lifetimes. For me, that'sactually a little more, a little
more hopeful, I think, back tolike the book of Revelation,

(39:59):
which Brian kind of talks about,it's like the most abused book
of the Bible, perhaps. And itwas this book of poetry written
to people for whom things werereally bad and they weren't
getting better. And that waswhere the eschatology kind of
came up, this vision of heavenand earth becoming one. But it
was actually like routed throughprofound suffering and you can't
control it, and you won't seethe end of it.

What you're saying is reminding me of a book
of Psalms that I have loved, andit invites the reader to to pray
the Psalms, to really treat thePsalms as prayers that were
written to be addressed to theDivine, and invites us to
reflect on the ways in whicheverything, expressed in the

(40:43):
Psalms, which is so manydifferent things, needs to be
prayed by someone somewhere atsome point. The divine can
receive, indeed, longs toreceive, all of that, whether
it's deep grief or whether it'sincredible joy, whether it's
guilt or frustration or praise.

Yeah. It can be very easy to think that the
expressions of our faith, orindeed, like just our own
emotional range as humans, thecorrect ones are in a pretty
kind of limited range, and theydon't involve things like anger
or grief or profound rage likethese are not things that are
actually acceptable. Actually,maybe there are some ways we

(41:33):
really need to grieve together.We're in a moment where, as we
talk about at The BTS Center allthe time, grief and lament
become the necessaryprecondition for engaged
activism. You don't have to keepholding your optimism tighter
and tighter and tighter. It'sactually okay to let it go and
grieve and lament and let yourfeet touch ground again and then

(41:53):
say, Okay, what do I do now?

That's probably what leads to courage, is being
honest and being in communitywith that honesty develops the
sort of courage that we sodeeply need in these times.

You know, this was not a light conversation
that I had with Brian, though Ithink he engages it very
compassionately and graciously.What was your experience as
you've come into this, intocontact with this reality and
the way that I know we have akind of, I think, in the same
time, and being exposed to thesame conversations and the same

(42:32):
authors?

it has helped me understand what anxiety and
overwhelm is all about, hasopened me up to a lot of the
practices that people havedeveloped over time in
communities that have needed tolive with anxiety and overwhelm

(42:56):
more than my community, honestlyhas needed to. Becoming embodied
in a variety of different ways,spending time in nature, and one
that's been important for me hasbeen the idea of trusting my
future self. And so what does itlook like to build trust in my

(43:19):
ability to handle hard thingsand not to do that in a way
that's individualistic andisolated. But what does it
actually mean to have trust thatmy family, my neighborhood, my
community, my nation, dare Isay, might be able to handle
hard things? I was struck in theconversation about the way

(43:46):
privilege plays with all of thisstuff. I think there really is a
way in which those withprivilege, and I count myself in
there, have troubleunderstanding that our status
quo is rooted in extraction andhas been hurting people and
planet for a long time. Yet Ialso resonated with Brian

(44:11):
mentioning that that somethingis broken here. I don't know how
those dynamics work for you. Ofawareness of a brokenness, while
also just this challenge of butmaybe today is kind of okay,
because the extraction hasactually kind of helped us.

I mean, I think this is something we that we've
talked a lot about over theselast three seasons, something
that those of you who havelistened to us over those three
seasons know that I've wrestledwith particularly as the father
of young children. There is thisplace that I hold intention,

(44:52):
both the beauty and enoughnessof each day. The ways that life
is beautiful, that I'veexperienced genuine community in
the context of things that arealso harmful. I remember
experiencing profound communityhanding out water bottles on the

(45:13):
street of the city and now likeplastic water bottles, like
plastic water bottles So also,at the same time, recognizing
that I am embedded within theseprofoundly extractive,
destructive systems that havereally played an outsized role
in bringing us as a as aspecies, and more than just as a
species, but as a planetarycommunity, to this moment. The

(45:35):
thing that helps is the conceptof grace. This is not something
that actually, I get a chance totalk a lot about in a lot of
Christian circles, where we'reso focused on right living in
this moment, but this idea thatwe are loved unconditionally by
virtue of our existence, not byvirtue of what we do. And this

(46:01):
idea, therefore, that sometimesthe goodness that bubbles up in
our lives is disproportionate tothe amount of effort or virtue
involved. There's somethingthere we can't control. I try to
do my best, and I carry withgrief all the ways that I'm not
and the ways that we're not, Idon't know, as you were talking
to Cole and like, maybe I couldhave some trust that our nation

(46:22):
can do hard things. And Ithought, nope, I am. I can't, I
can't get there. Um, there isalso with that at the same time,
also a sense of being held, ofknowing that, you know my
tradition, I would say, Godloves me, God loves you, God
loves us, and that means thatthere are powerful forces of

(46:45):
goodness at work, even when wedon't get everything right, and
sometimes even when we screwthings up horribly, like we
have.

I appreciate where you and Brian went in this
conversation in terms ofhonoring scripture. I think I
appreciated it, because I hearoften this idea that we're still
living in an old story, and it'sjust so hard because the new

(47:16):
story has not been written yet.We can't see what that is yet
which I resonate with. And thenlistening to the two of you, I'm
like, wait a second, maybe thatnew story has been imagined for
us, and it's actually turningback to some of our deep wisdom
texts to unearth it. In the bookLife After Doom, Brian gives an

(47:42):
amazing pitch for understandingthe Bible as a indigenous
ecological text. I love thissection. Partly he does this
because he's wrestling with hisrelationship with the wisdom of
our indigenous neighbors today,and not wanting to do another

(48:03):
step of colonizing that wisdomwhile recognizing it. He also
makes this move of saying wedon't need to take someone
else's it is actually deepwithin our own tradition. So he
says the Bible is a beautifuland dangerous gift from our

(48:25):
ancestors. And when I'mliturgist next, which means, you
know, I might be the person atchurch to read the Scripture
before the pastor preaches.Maybe I should just say that
before I read the text, I'll saythese words are beautiful and
dangerous gifts from ourancestors, and then say, what,

(48:47):
what, chapter and verse.

I love that, and I think both words are
really good, because we exist ina culture that thinks of these
things in binaries. And so Ihear these very flattened
conversations from myconservative friends and my
progressive friends, whereeither the Bible is the perfect
literal word of God do not do somuch as criticize an indefinite

(49:10):
article, or you're committingblasphemy on the one hand or on
the other, that the Bible isjust a miserable cesspool of
imperialism and patriarchy andthere's nothing good in it, and
we've grown beyond it. One ofthe things that I really love
about what's happening right nowis we're realizing we are not
smarter than our ancestors.We're not better than our
ancestors. There are thingswhere we've gotten a lot better,

(49:32):
and one of them is our startingto grapple as a society with
some of the profoundoppressions, such as racism,
such as sexism, that have beenbaked into the way we viewed the
world. So there are some thingswe've gotten better, but there
are a lot of ways we are notsmarter than our ancestors, we
are not wiser than ourancestors, especially our
ancient ancestors. And one ofthe things I've really

(49:53):
appreciated through thedecolonizing work that so many
folks are doing is we arefinally able to listen to our
indigenous. siblings who havehad these centuries, these
millennia, of profound wisdom tooffer us that has been dismissed
as, quote, primitive. You know,we've grown beyond it that's
actually really valuable and hassomething important to offer us

(50:13):
in this moment. And this iswhere I love being then able to
come back to the Bible,especially those of us who have
read it, and so when we read it,we're not reading it. We kind of
have our scripts, and we seewhat we think we should see on
the pages, and begin to askourselves, How is this an
indigenous text speaking backinto this moment that we're in?
What does it mean for us to behuman in the context of

(50:36):
catastrophe? What does it meanto be human in the context of
uncertainty, and what does itmean to be human in the context
of land, in a more than humancommunity that surrounds us? And
where is the divine in the midstof that?

I also love living into the danger part and
the way in which the Bible as anindigenous ecological text, is
threatening to the powers thatbe in a way that God loves.
Brian said this thing aboutimagining religion as entity

(51:10):
that shapes desires. I lovedthinking about that, that
religion is something thatshapes our yearnings, shapes our
longings. I actually waslistening recently to a former
episode where you had aconversation with Veronice
Miles, and she was defining hopeas our internal longings and

(51:36):
yearnings for justice, forwholeness. I agree. Our
ancestors had things to say thatare still so relevant in terms
of that level of wisdom and itand it would shake things up.
It'd be pretty radical toactually go for what's being

(51:56):
described.

Yeah. So I have a curious question for for you,
Nicole, one of the things that Iidentified as part of my
conversation about Brian iswe're talking about all this
stuff. We're two white men. Thatcertainly informs the way we're
seeing this current moment andunderstanding what it means to
be human in this moment, and Ithink primarily about the things

(52:19):
probably that we missed becauseof our social location. I'm
curious for you, as a whitewoman, what it was like in terms
of listening to thatconversation, but also, what do
you feel like you notice that aspart of your identity, that
perhaps folks like me might notnotice or not notice as easily.

First, I would say that I think I'm still on a
learning journey with thequestion that you asked, and
thank you for asking it. I spenda good amount of time with white
men who are self aware thatthey're white men. That's
helpful. But for sure, privilegeis multifaceted, as is systemic

(53:00):
oppression. This idea ofintersectionality. I'm aware
that I have many, manyprivileges, and I'm aware that I
move through the world as afemale, and I was raised as a
female, and I was taught as afemale, my book group, which is
comprised of my besties fromcollege, which was now a while

(53:21):
ago. So these are friends ofmine for a long time. We right
now are reading a book calledThe Women by Kristin Hannah, and
it is an amazing novel aboutnurses who served in Vietnam. In
the book, there's this momentthat just felt so powerful to

(53:41):
me. The main character, who is anurse, is receiving a letter
from her mother, who's writingher from America. And the mother
says, "I imagine it would feelwonderful to be good at
something that mattered. That issomething that too many of the
women of my generation didn'tconsider." I mean, and this is

(54:04):
not that long ago. It just, itjust strikes me how recently all
of this is. So you know, a nurseserving in Vietnam, and her mom,
who grew up maybe in the 40s or50s, was in a position because
of her gender, being good atsomething that mattered wasn't
even in their imagination. Ifeel so privileged that the

(54:29):
world has shifted in a way thatfor me, I get to do work that I
think matters. I feel theblessing of that and reading
that note, but it makes me thinkabout some of my seminary
professors were the first womenordained in their traditions,
which means that they weretaught probably exclusively by

(54:51):
men and raised in communitieswith only male leadership
demonstrated. And there arecertainly plenty of religious
spaces where, as a female, Iwould not be invited into
leadership. So it's this trickything of you know, I can say to
you pretty quickly, oh, I hold alot of privilege, and I would

(55:12):
have the same exact conversationas you and Brian. And then also,
when you start unpacking, it'slike, oh, this is complicated,
and points to the ways in whichpeople may understand this time
and what's needed in this timereally differently based on
their own lived experience, withuncertainty, with feeling like

(55:34):
they have something to offerthat's not being noticed, and so
many other things probably.

I really appreciate you sharing that and
sharing it really honestly. AndI wonder what are the other
quote, careers or habits ofthought or mind or values that
our privileged, addictiveculture has suppressed that are
going to need to come up. And ofcourse, the people who already
hold those and practice thoseare those who we as a society

(56:02):
have have pushed to the margins.And I think there's going to be
a very uncomfortablereorientation that's going to
happen where those of us who areused to being the smartest, most
privileged people in the room,those who teach others, are
going to have to learn a lot ofhumility when it turns out that
those people who we look down oneither in scorn or in pity,

(56:23):
actually proved to have a lotmore resources to meet this
moment than we do.

Thank you. I just have given a lot of thought to
the ways in which so manyprofessions can be understood
today as climate professions, wesort of think, Oh, I'm going
into climate so I'm going towork on solar panels. But
perhaps what we need the most isthe artists. Yeah, so just

(56:53):
imagining how many of us will beon the front lines of climate
change and really in really inclimate work.

Yeah, you know, being on the front lines is
being a farmer. Being on thefront lines is getting to know
your neighbors. Being on thefront lines is tending to your
children. Renee Eisler, who's avery noted organizational
thinker, talks about how thebest way to transform society is
to nurture young children,because those early years are
the most formative years ofsomeone's of someone's life. I

(57:26):
also think about this with whatdoes it mean to engage in
spiritual practice in thismoment?

I don't know if I recommend this, but just to
share for me, I have a prettyregular journaling practice.
When I journal and I hit a pointof, oh, this is out of my
control, and I don't know what'sgonna happen. And I just like,
write the word prayer. So I'mlike, journaling, journaling,

(57:51):
journaling, and then all capsprayer. I don't know if that's
backwards. I don't really startmy journaling with like, dear
God. I just like, go for it. Andthen I hit these points that I'm
just like, Ooh, I just need tosay prayer right now. This is a
really, a really good invitationto reflect more on on what
prayer means for us,individually and and even that

(58:14):
invitation to go back to toPsalms, which are written
prayers, and to know thatsomeone needs you to be praying
that prayer, even if it's notthe language you need today.

I love that. So Nicole, I'm curious, are there
other next steps that you wouldinvite folks into? I actually
think prayer for me is theperfect next step. I actually
just want to pause and say tothose who are listening, if you
found this conversation at timesanxiety producing or
overwhelming, I hope once wefinish here today, your next

(58:52):
step can be to take 10 minutesnotice and name what you're
feeling, what questions youhave, and perhaps if it's still
feeling overwhelming as Iexpected, I maybe do as Nicole
suggests, and just write prayerin all caps at the bottom, and
let that lead you into aconversation with the divine and

(59:12):
the way that you might inwhatever way you might
understand the divine.

Okay, you'll turn my thing that I said maybe was
not a recommendation into aninvitation.

I absolutely believe moments like this would
probably invite us to fall onour knees.

Amen. Amen.

Anna Barron, one of our amazing producers,
has additional possible nextsteps you can take. Thanks.

Anna Barron (59:39):
Ben, part of my role for Climate Changed is
producing the next step segment.Each episode, I will add a
couple more next steps for youour listeners. There is no
pressure to do any or all ofthese next steps. We just hope
they can be a valuable resourcefor you. For this episode, I
invite you to start a climatejournal. This can look many

(01:00:00):
different ways, but mostly itwill be a place where you can
write down any thoughts,feelings or steps you want to
take related to living in aclimate-changed world. Make or
buy a journal that ispersonalized to you. Consider
writing entries in a place whereyou are in or can see nature. I
suggest setting aside 20 to 30minutes weekly to add to this

(01:00:22):
journal. You can also use thejournal for drawings or to press
leaves, and for your firstentry, you might want to write
about this episode. What is yourmain takeaway from Brian and
Ben's conversation? How has thisshifted your perspective?
Throughout the season, feel freeto send us a photo of your
journal, and we might evenfeature it on our social media.

(01:00:44):
Next, I invite you to tell onefriend about this episode and
about Brian's book, Life AfterDoom. Discuss with them why it
might be important to read. Ifyou do any of these action
steps, please feel free to sharethem along with this episode on
your social media so that someof your friends might be
inspired to do the same. Onceagain, there is no pressure to

(01:01:07):
do all or any of these nextsteps. We just want these to be
a resource for you as you figureout ways to engage in this huge
and overwhelming topic. ThanksBen and Nicole for kicking off
this season and for bringing meonto the team.

Nicole Diroff (01:01:31):
Thank you Anna and thank you listeners, so much
for joining us today for thisepisode of the Climate Changed
podcast.

Ben Yosua-Davis (01:01:40):
I want to thank Brian McLaren for his time and
his wisdom. You can learn moreabout Brian on his website,
brianmclaren.net

You'll find him on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram
and threads.

On The BTS Center website, we have show
notes for this episode alongwith a full transcript. We also
have a discussion guide for theepisode visit
climatechangedpodcast.org,

In our next episode of the climate change
podcast, I chat with JoelleNovey. She is the director at
Interfaith Power and Light forWashington, DC, Maryland and
Northern Virginia. Joelle willtell us about her work with
local communities to engage inmeaningful climate change
conversations and actions. Shealso tells us about her Jewish

(01:02:27):
faith and how it informs herclimate work. Between now and
then, Ben and I would love tohear from you. Please feel free
to contact us to share yourresponses to this episode with
Brian McLaren. What has itbrought up for you? What are the
next steps you are considering?Please call, text or email us.

(01:02:49):
Leave us a voice message at207-200-6986 that's 207-200-6986
plus one, if you're calling fromoutside the USA, you can also
text that same number207-200-6986.

If you prefer, you can also email us. Our email
is podcast@theBTScenter.org.That's podcast@theBTScenter.org
Climate Changed podcast isproduced by Peterson Toscano and
Anna Barron. Our podcast is aproject of The BTS Center in
beautiful Portland, Maine.

Learn about the many resources we offer along
with our in person and onlineprograms. Visit our website
theBTScenter.org. That'stheBTScenter.org. Peace to you,
podcast listeners.

Peterson Toscano (01:04:05):
In a world where uncertainty looms large
and the weight of climate chaosbears down on our daily lives,
how do we find our way forward?How do we hold on to hope amidst
the doom? This October, join usfor two transformative
opportunities with acclaimedauthor, speaker and activist
Brian McLaren as we explorethese vital questions together.

(01:04:29):
First on Wednesday, October 30,from 7 to 8:30pm, Eastern, we

invite you to Life After Doom: An Evening with Brian McLaren. (01:04:34):
undefined
In this intimate online event,Brian will delve into the wisdom
of his latest book, Life AfterDoom: Wisdom and Courage for a
World Falling Apart. Withunflinching honesty and deep
compassion, Brian will guide usthrough the complexities of our

(01:04:55):
time, offering new ways to buildresilient communities and find
courage in the face of profoundloss. Don't miss the chance to
connect with Brian and a panelof thought leaders accompanied
by soulful music for an eveningof deep reflection and
inspiration. Registration isjust $25 and the first 100

(01:05:16):
people to sign up will receive acomplimentary copy of Life After
Doom. Full and half scholarshipsare also available. But that's
not all, beginning on October 15and running through November 19,
we're offering a five weekonline book study. It's also
centered on Life After Doom.Every Tuesday from 4 to 5:15pm,

(01:05:42):
Eastern you'll gather with acommunity of seekers and two
skilled facilitators. Together,you'll explore the powerful
insights of Brian's text.Together, we'll navigate the
hard truths of our time anddiscover how to live into a
future rooted in love,simplicity and community. Your

(01:06:03):
$50 registration fee includes acopy of Life After Doom for the
first 100 participants, andscholarships are available.
Whether you join us for theevening conversation the book
study or both, you'll bestepping into a space of
collective wisdom where hope andresilience are nurtured even in
the face of uncertainty. VisittheBTScenter.org to register

(01:06:27):
today. Let's come together tofind strength, courage and
community in these challengingtimes.

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