Author Randy Overbeck Red Shadows at Saugatuck – Ghosts, Mystery & Indigenous Justice - Dairyland Frights

Episode Transcript
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Speaker A (00:00):
Foreign.

Speaker B (00:13):
Hello, my spooky friends.
This is John, your host of Dairyland Frights
in the spookier podcast Nightland Frights.
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(00:37):
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And remember,
stay spooky.
Welcome to Dairyland Frights.
I'm your host, John, and this is the

(00:59):
paranormal podcast that covers everythingspooky, creepy and mysterious in the Midwest
and beyond.
And today I have one of my favorite guests on.
I had him on before.
His name is Randy Overbeck.
He's an author.
Welcome, Randy.

Speaker A (01:16):
Well, I'm delighted to be back and be able to join you, John, and talk a little
bit more about both my books and ghosts.

Speaker B (01:23):
Yes. And by the way, if you want to go back and listen to our first episode
together, not only we talked about his book atthat time, but also we talked a little bit
about ghosts and some of the, some of the, Idon't know, interesting research behind it and
some of the things Randy has talked to peopleabout it and some of his findings.

(01:43):
So it's also a.
Is exciting because I love having authors onbecause they always are really interesting.
Not only interesting, but also I loveindependent authors on because they're the
lifeblood,
in my opinion of, you know, getting new booksout there and, and independent author, you
know, sometimes understand, has an uphillbattle and anytime I can kind of help get them

(02:08):
out there and, you know, it's always new.
Rather than nothing against Stephen King orany of the other great authors out there,
they've been doing it for a while.
They're fine.
They don't need our money and they don't needour time.
They're gonna, they're doing okay.
They're gonna be.
It's fine.
Exactly.
So let's get right to it.
Randy, you have a new novel, and let's talkabout it and kind of give a idea what it's

(02:33):
about and, you know, share it with our spookyfriends.
There we go.

Speaker A (02:37):
Okay, well, we'll start with COVID This is,
it's called Red Shadows at Saugatuck.
I'll tell you a lot about it in a minute.
But before I do that, it is the fourth entryin the Haunted Shore mystery series.
The series has won 12 national awards so far.

Speaker B (02:53):
Congratulations.

Speaker A (02:54):
As two best selling titles among the group.
It's been very, very popular with paranormalreaders and those people who just like
mysteries in general have really flocked toit.
And to be honest with you, John, this is thebest.
I've. The best work I've done to date.
I'm really proud of it.
So the, the stick is my.
My stick is that.
That I look for interesting,

(03:17):
not very well known resort locations that alsocan match up with a great ghost story.
And I tried and I craft a fiction about thoseplaces.
The first one was on the eastern shore of theChesapeake Bay.
The second place was.
Was a Cape May, New Jersey.
And then the third one, the last one before

(03:37):
this was in Florida, a place called CrystalRiver, Florida.
And in my.
In my characters, in the backstory of my
character, he's actually from Michigan.
So I wanted to bring him back to Michigan.
And I want.
I look for a really interesting place in
Michigan and found one in this place calledSaugatuck, which is a really welcoming,
beautiful resort town on the western edge ofMichigan.

(04:01):
Or if you look at it the other way, theeastern shore of Lake Michigan.
It's actually on the.
It's on the.
Where the Kalamazoo river flows into LakeMichigan.
It. It has a lot of really interestingcharacteristics about it.
And I was able to capture some neat aspectsabout the,
about the, about the town in the story.

(04:21):
But my ghost part, which is also kind of my
murder part, I chose it because of itsproximity to a Native American reservation
area because the, the go.
The murder is.
Is about a missing Native teen.
So there are.
The tribe in the area is called.
It's.
It's.
They're actually a branch of the Ojibwe, butwe've bastardized it.

Speaker B (04:45):
It's.

Speaker A (04:45):
They're called the Gun Lake tribe.

Speaker B (04:47):
Okay.

Speaker A (04:47):
They're famous in the area because they have a Gun Lake casino.
But actually my book takes place before thecasino opens.
But I wanted to have the combination of thisreally intriguing,
very small town when it's.
When they're not overflowing with visitors.
We're talking a couple thousand.
Not a very big town,

(05:08):
but they're really famous as an art town.
And they have all these really neat aspects of
it.

Speaker B (05:12):
Okay.

Speaker A (05:13):
And I was able to layer this mystery about ghosts and Native Americans on
top of that town.

Speaker B (05:19):
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
So he kind of talked a little bit about this.
So. But what inspired you to write thisparticular book?
You kind of were like looking around, right?And, but what was like, that's it.
This is, this is what I want to write.

Speaker A (05:35):
Well, I have, I've read and from several other authors and some on my own have
read a lot about Native Americans, theirbelief in spirituality and ghosts.
And I actually came upon some research that Iread about the mmiw, which stands for Missing
and Murdered Indigenous women.

Speaker B (05:56):
Yeah.

Speaker A (05:57):
It was an organization put together, I think, in 14 or 15.
Again, this book happens in 2007.
But it, it what,
but it's able to intent is to capture theproblems that Native women are having.
I mean, when I did the research, it justamazed me and I went, well, this is really
fertile ground for exploring the possibilityof what's happening to these young girls and

(06:23):
women and then building that into a mysterythat takes place in this gorgeous town.

Speaker B (06:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's.
So let me ask you this.
You kind of, kind of led me into my nextquestion.
So when you were doing your research, Randy,
did you uncover anything surprising orfascinating?
It kind of sounds like you did.
Right.
Kind of sounds like you were like, wow, I, I,this is,
I do this.

Speaker A (06:50):
What I've learned with each of the research I've done in my books, like the
research on human trafficking, the research onabuse of migrants in the South, I find out how
little I really know about it.
You know?

Speaker B (07:00):
Yeah.

Speaker A (07:01):
You know, did you know, for example, in human trafficking that every five
minutes a young girl in America gets sucked inhuman trafficking?
And I didn't know any of that.

Speaker B (07:12):
Wow.

Speaker A (07:12):
The mmiw, they've documented that, Miss that, that Native women get murdered,
raped, abducted or kidnapped at a rate 10times that.

Speaker B (07:24):
Yeah.

Speaker A (07:24):
Of white women.
Yeah, I've heard that.
I thought, well, this is really compelling
information that is not in the publicknowledge.
And I thought, well, it would be nice to mergethat as part of the, you know, the story.
It's really, it's, it's, it's not a teachingtext.
It's really a fun mystery.

Speaker B (07:41):
Yeah.

Speaker A (07:41):
Involves, it involves a yacht.
There's a lot of stuff about these real
expensive yachts that are on Lake Michigan,
this huge mansion that Daryl goes to see hisgrant, his great aunt.
All these other factors are involved, but Iwanted to, I wanted to mine the other aspects
about the bigger issue and even be able to tiethe ghost part to that.

Speaker B (08:02):
Yeah. Yeah. So let, let's talk about that a little bit.
You said with the,
I'm just kind of reading things Here.
And please correct me, I just got this off
your website and stuff.
And like it says, this new paranormal mystery
takes Daryl, Aaron and and their five year oldson Leo to a quiet resort town in Lake
Michigan for a family event only.

(08:24):
When the Henshaw family learns of some missingteenagers and ask about the teen girls, they
end up confronting a puzzling mystery tied tothe MM IW missing and murdered indigenous
women with the help of a ghost of a murderedteen.
So tell me about that.
That's interesting.

Speaker A (08:45):
Well, one of the things that I like that I did a little differently here than I
did in the first.
Well, two major changes.
The first one I want to talk about is Leo.
So there, there's a. What was a romantic, nowa family arc in the four books.
So in the first book Daryl and Leo meet.
In the second book they fall in love.
In the third book they're actually married.
This book takes place seven years after that.

(09:08):
So the first three books ended in 2000.
This actually takes place in 2007.
And they have a five year old son who is areally interesting precocious little boy.
But he also happens to have inherited hisfather's gift of seeing ghosts,
which places him in the middle of the samedanger that Daryl often encounters because he

(09:30):
sees ghosts and then tries to act on it.
So that was one part that makes this a really,
really interesting read.
It's a lot about family love.
Darryl's extended family is there.
So all of that as well as the family side of
the young girl that's been murdered.
So I really liked those elements that I couldbuild a story around.
The other part is, you know, for NativeAmericans, the, the concept of spirituality,

(09:53):
the concepts of ghosts is just an extension oftheir regular belief.
So they have, as you probably know, they havea much respect for their elders than do white
people.
They have an even greater respect for their
ancestors.
And the idea of learning from their ancestors
who have passed on in some kind of a ghostfashion is just natural to them.

(10:14):
That, that doesn't seem the ordinary at all.
And so what I did, I mean I could have
explored.
There's lots of, there's lots of evil ghosts
that Native American tribes have.
And I did my research on that.
You know, I don't know.
The Navajos have a ghost that they call skinwalkers.
Yeah,

(10:34):
Tony Hillerman talked about those in some ofhis books.
There's a, there's a tribe called thePassamaquoddy that have a ghost called
Escadamagoot, which is a ghost wit.
And even the Ojibwe have a ghost that have a
ghost that they call the Windigo, which is avery evil ghost.

Speaker B (10:51):
So.

Speaker A (10:52):
And other authors have used those.
And I thought about that, but instead what I
did was I used the idea about ghosts, of thatghosts are people who have died, but then come
back in some way or fashion and talk to orcommunicate with the people on humans.
And there's a chapter in the book besideswhere the ghost is appearing.

(11:14):
There's a chapter I wrote in the book whereDaryl is interviewing this young girl's
mother.
And Daryl is, at this point, does not know
what happened to her, but knows that she'sgone missing.
And when he interviews her,
the mother tells Darryl, she's dead.
I know she's dead.
And Darryl says, well, what did you do?You know, what happened to her?
You know?And she doesn't.
She said, but I know because she appeared tome and talked to me.

(11:38):
So it's that part of their belief inspirituality that's a natural extension that I
tried to build into the story.

Speaker B (11:45):
Yeah. So the biggest differences for me versus, like.
And you kind of mentioned it versus NativeAmerican people versus just a regular person.
Right.
It is kind of like when I've interviewed
people on the show, Randy, they've talked tome about, like, my grandma or my grandpa would
reach out to me,
say, it's okay.

(12:05):
I'm fine.
Don't worry about me.
And, you know, because people were close to
that person.
Now, Native Americans, not to say that we have
our Cryptids.
Right.
And they're.
They're not as bad as, like, the Windigo.
And I did a. I did a episode on it.
The Wendigo is really something that you're
like, okay, this is horror movie stuff, right?

Speaker A (12:28):
Yeah.

Speaker B (12:28):
Right. And everything.
So when you were doing your research,
was there a point in the time where you said,okay, the story can go this way?
Because, I mean, human trafficking and thingslike that is evil.
You know what I mean?I mean,
it's a terrible, terrible thing that happensevery day,
and especially to the Native American women.

(12:51):
You were bringing up that statistic.
I've heard other statistics where, you know,
these women are disappearing and literally,like, seems every day.
I don't know if that's true, but it seems likeit.
Right.
And nobody cares.
So you would think that would bring quite abit of, I don't know, evil and them
understanding things.
So when you were doing your book, was there apoint you said, like, when you were going

(13:13):
through.
I could have went this way or that way.
Was there a point where you were thinking,
would this be more,
you know, I don't know, interesting to thereader, I guess.
And why did you decide like, I'm not gonna,I'm not gonna do that.
I think it takes it in a whole differentdirection.
I may not lie.

Speaker A (13:29):
Well, what I decided I wanted to focus on was human evil, not evil that might
exist in, in the spiritual world.

Speaker B (13:39):
Yes.

Speaker A (13:42):
I, I don't know if I, I think I chose not to include this in the book.
But what was guided me by was the saying whichMartin Luther King quoted, but he was not the
first one to say it, that all it takes forevil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.

Speaker B (13:55):
Yes.

Speaker A (13:56):
And so what, what I, what I have happen is what I have was what I, what I
attempted to capture in the.
Fictionally, in the story was the real
situation that you were just describing thatthese Native women seem to disappear and
nobody is really surprised or upset or worriedabout it.
Yeah, I, what I did is I captured in severalof the townspeople their reaction to the.

(14:21):
So let me back up.
What happens in the beginning is because I
have this five year old that I can tell thestory partly through, he sees a flyer, you
know, one of the missing flyers with thisgirl's name on.
That's how the whole thing gets started.
And he in his innocence goes, dad, we gottafind this girl.
He's been missing for.
He said, how long is that?His dad tells him and says, well, is, is that

(14:45):
a long time?Well, we got to go find her.
So he goes off and he's asking people aboutthis girl and their response is,
don't worry about it.
You know, those girls disappear all the time.
Most of the time they come back here, halftime they have a papoose on their back when
they come back.
I mean, so that,
so that kind of prejudice rhetoric is what Iwas trying to, trying to focus on as opposed

(15:11):
to,
you know, the wind to go or anything likethat.
Because I thought.
Because in my opinion that's a more real evil
than.

Speaker B (15:19):
Yeah.

Speaker A (15:19):
Than the other side.

Speaker B (15:20):
Yeah. And, and, and by the way, the Native American burial ground and not to.
We were talking offline.
Randy and I have.
Have a little fun with this too,
you know, Really.
I mean, pet cemetery and you know, you know
what I mean?Like it's a Native American bed.
And then you bury someone, they come back andthey're evil.
Okay. You know, been there, done that.
Right.

(15:40):
So that, that leads me to my next questionbecause anyone listening to this right now is
probably going, wow, Randy, this is reallyheavy.
I'm not sure if I want to read this book, butobviously it has a great message.
But what message or theme do you want thereaders to take away from your book, Randy?

Speaker A (15:58):
Well, I mean I don't want to over dramatize the serious aspects of the story
that, that they are clearly embedded in there.
But readers will find the story fun.
They'll find.
They'll find life looking through Leo's eyesat all the new experiences.

(16:19):
A really interesting and fascinating.
There's a they one of the one part of this
just.
Just to give an example that's a fun one part
of the story.
They go on a dune buggy ride.
Now they.
This is just an example.
They have something I've never seen anyplace
else.
So they have this.
It isn't really a dune buggy.
It's a converted truck that's like a huge dune
buggy that fits nine people.
And they put behind the wheel and they send

(16:39):
you off.
And they've created what really is like aroller coaster in a dune bug because they have
all these sands that they fixed so it can't goout of the rut.
And they're going 30 and 40 miles an houraround these curves and up and down and.
And little Leo is just going crazy loving theexperience and stuff.
And even that I got.
I found a way to put something of the ghostpart into there.

(17:02):
But the readers will be so involved in the.
Enjoying the experience of sharing the
experience that the others are having.
They're going to, they're going to get a greatdeal of that.
And there's a lot of that.
This town has the only chain fairy that still
exists in the United States.
And a chain ferry is.
Have you been on one?
It's where you actually.
Okay, so they have a. So they have a verynarrow river.

(17:24):
So the Kalamazoo river isn't very wide.
It isn't a football field across probably less
than that.
Probably 150ft from one end to the other and.
But they have to get across.
Instead of a bridge, they have a chain ferry.
Okay, so a chain ferry is.
It is exactly what it looks like.
They have a chain that runs down to the bottom

(17:44):
and you literally crank the chain to get fromone side to the other at a chain ferry has
been operating on that river since the 1860sor I don't I remember now.
I did my research then and I asked, well, whyin the world couldn't they just walk across
it?And they said, well,
it's very deep, so it's like, I don't know,20, 30ft deep for a river and the current is

(18:05):
really strong.
And they said when the facility first came
across and tried to cross, they would losehorses, people would drown.
So they made this chain fair.
Anyway, one part of it that's really fun, Leo
gets to operate the chain fair so he canactually crank the chain, which, which I saw
them doing that with kids on there.
And then in the middle of that process,
he sees the girl that he thinks they'relooking for, the girl that's on the missing

(18:28):
poster, which turns out to be the ghost.
But he doesn't know that at the time because
being five, he can't always distinguish whenhe's seeing a ghost and when he's seeing a
person.

Speaker B (18:38):
Right, right.
So let's talk about characters a little bit.
Was there any character in the bookparticularly that you related to?
Maybe,
maybe when you were a little kid or maybe youhave a grandson or a neighbor's kid or
somebody when you were coming up with thatcharacter, that five year old.
I mean, sound like the five year old is almostlike five going on 20.

Speaker A (19:01):
Yeah, that's exactly.
He has the curiosity of a five year old.
Yeah.

Speaker B (19:07):
How did you decide that? Because that's, that's interesting to me.

Speaker A (19:10):
Well, and I have both children and I've raised children and helped raise
grandkids, so there's lots of kids.
And yes, I think I probably built.
I think I probably basically.
Oh.
On some of the characteristics of my ownchildren, some of whom had an insatiable
curiosity.
And that's how I built Leo.
Leo wants to find out about everything.
Well, what it is, there's a part in the story
where this beautiful house has glass panes inthe ceiling and Leo wants to know why they put

(19:35):
windows in the ceiling.
Why would you put windings in the ceiling?There's a house with windows in the ceiling.
What are windows doing up there?Aren't they supposed to be on the other side?
You know, so it's those kinds of.
And, and I, I use those to help keep the tone
light throughout much of the story.
We also meet Darrell's family,
so he has a brother.
And there's a backstory that I won't go into,
but there's a backstory about an event thatoccurred in the first book that involves his

(19:59):
brother and why his brother limps as an adult.
So we, we, we have a quick little visit ofthat.
His brother has his wife who is pregnant,which they just learn on the spot.
So Leah's all excited about Having a cousinstuff.
So there's all those kind of family things.
And then there's this Aunt Gertrude who's kind
of like a crusty, know it all, matriarchalaunt that they've come to celebrate her 80th

(20:24):
birthday.
That's actually the impetus of the wholestory.
So, yeah,
I, I was able to pull on a lot of charactersto be able to create this story of family,
because the story is really about family.
It's about how important those people are to
you.
And then by extension,
this young girl, this teenage girl that goesmissing and murdered, how important that she

(20:48):
was to her family and nobody else outside themother and the native community even care
about.

Speaker B (20:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's, that's, that's just really
interesting to me.
So I always love to ask this question of
authors.
Which one of your fictional characters in your
books or maybe in another book if you'd like.
But I want to focus on your book,
your books.
Excuse me.
That you would love to have a conversationwith.

Speaker A (21:13):
You know, people have often asked me, do you see ghosts?
I have had a one personal experience where Isaw a ghost, but I don't.
I don't see ghosts the way Darryl does.
Now, Daryl has some OCD issues which make itkind of interesting, but I think I would love
to have a conversation with Daryl about, youknow, because at this point,
he's 20 years into being.

(21:35):
Being a sensitive, being able to see ghosts.
And although he's still not really thrilled
about it, he's not.
It's.
It is not the right.
I'm in this again issue that it was when he
first encountered it.
So I, you know, I. That's a very goodquestion.
I think I would, I would enjoy that a lot.
There's an interesting character in this book
that the readers.
I won't.

(21:55):
May or may not be a bad guy.
His name is Salazar.
He's the caretaker for this huge mansion.
And, and he's.
He's a really interesting character.
I think readers are going to enjoy that.

Speaker B (22:04):
Yeah, I love that.
Let's, let's.
Since this is a paranormal podcast, let's talka little bit about goals.
So last time we talked, Randy, you kind ofgave me, you know, you.
You've been on, you know, lectures and, youknow, having conversations with people in
general.
Has anything changed from that?
Any of your beliefs that you went, well, I'mkind of going this way now, leaning that way.

Speaker A (22:26):
I think when I started on this path, when.
Which is probably about 2014, around thattime, I would have classed myself As a. I
certainly wasn't a skeptic, but I wasn'twholeheartedly in.
I was.
I used to describe myself in the way thatShakespeare described it, you know, in Hamlet.
And he said, horatio, there are more things inheaven and earth than are.

(22:47):
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
And that's kind of how I thought.
As I have done more research,
gone more places, talked to a lot of people, Icontinue to expand my belief in ghosts and
more importantly, my belief in people'sability to be able to perceive those ghosts.
I've done a. I've done as you.
As I shared with you last time, I do about 30,

(23:08):
35, 40 presentations a year, most of themaround ghosts, sometimes around haunted places
or just the cultural aspects of ghosts.
And it brings me in contact with thousands ofpeople.
And I would say that about every three or fourtimes, maybe more often, I will end up with a
personal conversation with someone, Either Italk or after I talk, where they need to tell

(23:33):
me this pressing story about the ghost.
Now, most of the time, I don't know.
Half the time it is.
It is a. An encounter with a ghost that'srelated to that person that they had some kind
of personal knowledge of.
I will give you an example.
So this just happened last week.
So I'm doing a presentation.
I've been doing some.
A lot of senior center presentations.

(23:55):
And it has amazed me that the older adults aremore inclined to believe in ghosts than are
younger adults.

Speaker B (24:04):
At least that interesting.

Speaker A (24:06):
And so I gave this talk, and the guy came up to me, he says, I gotta tell you
about this story.
I said, okay.
He said that.
He said his father had died, I don't know,
the year before.
I think it wasn't very long.
And he said that he had been there up on hisbed, you know, his bedside before he died at
the hospital.
And he was on his way home, and he said he hadjust bought a Corvette.

(24:27):
Not the father, the son.
And. And he said that when he left thehospital and he's driving home in the
Corvette, he turns and his father appears inthe seat next to him in the Corvette.
And the father says, what, did you buy thispiece of **** for it?
And I said, did he have some againstCorvettes?
He said he hated Corvettes.

(24:48):
And, you know, and then he laughed and hisfather disappeared.
But he said that that was at the exact timethat he found out later that his father died
in hospital.
So I have probably heard some variation ofthat story.
Oh, I don't know,
20 times, 30 times, probably and the.
And that's kind of half.
And then the other half of the time I'll getthe opposite story.

(25:09):
I'll get a story where someone is going intosomeplace either new for them or like in some
cases, we got this house inherited from motherin law.
And my wife won't go in there because it's.
She says it's haunted you, that kind of thing.
Or there's a guy that came up to me at one ofmy presentations and said, have you ever been
to.
And he told me the name of the hotel, but Iapologize because I can't remember it.

(25:32):
It was a hotel in South Dakota.
And he said, I was in this.
And I was in this room and this ghost appearedon this.
And like this he said, I went down and said,get me a different room.
And he found out later that this particularroom is very famous for having someone died
and it's haunted.

Speaker B (25:48):
Yeah.

Speaker A (25:48):
So those kinds of stories are very common.
And most of the time they're just told with.
They're not.
There's no guile in that, in the persontelling them.
They're just saying, hey, look,
this, this is what happened to me.

Speaker B (26:00):
Yeah. I believe, and I still believe, Randy, that there are thousands of
more stories that people have not told becausethey don't want to appear.
I hate to use the word crazy, but whatever.
Was there ever someone that came in to you and
was very like.
I don't know if I should tell you this,

(26:21):
you know.
Yeah.

Speaker A (26:22):
But sometimes we do.
They do this.
Can I tell you this story?

Speaker B (26:25):
Yeah. And that to me is really interesting because I. I don't see it as.
And you know,
this is just me because I love the paranormal.
I think it's something.
I've heard stories where people who have,
when they're six,
see a ghost, you know what I mean,
in their room.
And it's affected them until,
you know, all their life maybe, you know, thatyou can't get it out.

(26:47):
And also I've heard things like where.
I don't know if anybody's told you this, where
they're like 18 and then their parents finallypull them aside and they go, you know, all
those times you came up to me and said,
you know, you saw a ghost in your room and allthis stuff.
Well, it's haunted.
I didn't want to tell you because I didn't
want you to freak out on us and go running outof that.
My favorite, really quick.

(27:09):
My favorite story with that is this father, he
bought this rocking chair.
This woman was telling me for the bedroom.
So, you know, they could, like, go in therewhen they're reading her story, and she could
sit on her dad's lap or mom's lap.
And, you know, one day she woke up and therocking chair was moving by itself.
And she was like, at first kind of, you know,dreaming.

(27:30):
Parents are saying they're dreaming.
And then one day she woke up and she saw,like, this figure of a man in this rocking
chair rocking back and forth.
And she told her parents, and her parents were
like, yeah,
okay.
But the next day, the rocking chair was
mysteriously gone.
I love stories like that where people are justlike, okay,

(27:50):
so let me ask you this.
When.
When you're talking about ghosts and things ofthat nature, like, what I think is interesting
that is becoming more prevalent is like,ghosts are more inhabiting objects, certain
rooms, certain areas.
Why?Do you have any idea of why that's true or

(28:11):
maybe not true?Because I just think it's interesting.
For example, curse style I cannot take whensomeone shows me like, oh, this is a cursed
doll and everything like that.
But then I think to myself, well, how did this
doll get cursed?
Like, you know what I mean?Like, how.
How did that ghost go into that or that spiritgo into that?
Do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker A (28:30):
Well, you know, I will say this.
One of the things I do in a talk that I give
them is I talk about.
I think I know whether I mentioned this last
time, that the belief in ghosts exists inevery religion in the world.
So if you examine the dogma or the doctrine ofJudaism, Muslim, Buddhism, any religion, there
is embedded in there a belief in ghosts.

(28:52):
But the belief in ghosts are not the same in
Eastern religions.
Their perspective on ghosts are about thereverse of ours.
So, you know, I blame Stephen King for this.
But in the Western world, people's automatic
reaction to ghosts is one of fear.
If someone's in that rocking chair, I betterget the hell out of here because something
bad's going to happen.

(29:13):
That's kind of our conditioned response, okay?
In the Eastern world, they actually have theopposite response.
They think that human beings should treatghosts as.
Because they are suffering spirits.
They should be treated with compassion.
They shouldn't be feared.
Okay, what.
The reason I'm saying that, to lead into whatyou're saying is as I have looked into

(29:33):
documented ghost events, okay, Almost all ofthose are benevolent.
I have found ver.
I found it very difficult to verify any kind
of Stephen King kind of ghost.
Now, offense to Stephen King.
It does make for a great story.
I'm not complaining yeah.

Speaker B (29:50):
Yeah.

Speaker A (29:50):
Okay. But it does condition, and it's not.
I mean, it was started long before StephenKing, so.

Speaker B (29:56):
Right. Just. Yeah.

Speaker A (29:57):
Better at it than a lot of other people are.

Speaker B (29:59):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A (29:59):
But it is a western thing about ghosts.
Bad ghosts, evil.
My experience is there.
There's no evidence.
So when they say, well,
ghosts inhabit someplace, my answer is, fromwhat I have researched, oftentimes ghosts are
tied to a place, usually where they die, butnot always.
And they are.

(30:20):
There's some reason why they are sticking
around.
You know, I tell the story.
I think you heard me tell the story, But Al
Unzer Jr. No.
Dale Earnhardt Jr. The NASCAR racer.

Speaker B (30:32):
Did I tell you a short story?

Speaker A (30:33):
In 2003,
Dale was doing a practice run on a track inSouth Carolina.
I don't know that.
I'm not a race guy.
I'm not a car guy.
I know what happened, but.
Mechanical problems, the car explodes, blowsup.
Dale, they're on this race.
They're on.
They're the own.
Their team was the only one on the racetrack.
The team comes running across the track.

(30:55):
When they get to the other side of the track,
Dale.
Dale is lying in the grass about 20 yardsunconscious from this burning car.
And that, you know, everybody's relieved whenhe comes to.
He says a ghost literally pulled him from thecar.
And in the interview, he said the ghost wasthe ghost of his father, Dale Earnhardt
Senior.

(31:15):
So I just use that as an example of the
reasons why ghosts are around are often forsome kind of purpose, either to resolve
something that they need resolved forthemselves or for somebody else.
I think there are ghosts that end up betweenhere and the next world, and they kind of like
it there.
So they play games with, like.

(31:37):
There are a number of ghosts have been
documented to turn light switches on and off,to knock glasses off, to do those kinds of
things, open a window.
And I think some of that is them asking to benoticed, wanting somebody to pay attention, to
help them.
I don't.
I don't put a lot of credence in, oh, theghost inhabited this creature.

(31:58):
And, you know,
voodoos have.
Have believed that forever.

Speaker B (32:04):
Yeah, I can't.

Speaker A (32:05):
I'm certainly not going to say I know better than they do.
Now, I'm talking about when I have tried tolook to a scientific investigation where it's
some evidence that something is happening herethat doesn't have a rational explanation.
The temperature.
I talked about the temperature change in a
room,
you know, an orb of light appearing in aclosed space that there is no light in there.

(32:26):
So there Are those things that.
That can be scientifically documented.
It's on video.
Or the temperature thing is being recorded.
You know, it's on audio.
But none of those things.
I've not come up with any of those.
That then they have some kind of malevolentintent connected to that, to those results.
Other people will have a differentperspective.
And I understand that and I accept that, butthat's not been what I've been able to find.

Speaker B (32:48):
Yeah, I think that's really interesting because, let's be honest,
Blood and Gore sells tickets.
I mean, you know,
and I get it.
You know, I've spoken to people, numerous
people who live in a haunted house or havelive in a haunted house, and they all say the
same thing to me.
No, it's not.
Like, I wake up and the end, the kitchen

(33:08):
drawers are flying and, like, there's shadowsall over the walls.
Like, no.
You know, occasionally they said it's morelike.
Like a nuisance.
Like, they wake up and like the.
All the cabinet doors are open and they'relike, ugh.

Speaker A (33:24):
Or the lights on that they turned off.

Speaker B (33:27):
Yeah. Or, you know, there's a little tugging on my sheets.
Or,
you know, it's just something to that effect.
And I get it that you have to sell tickets andso on and so forth, but we have found out from
research on, like, Amityville House as well asthe Conjuring House that it's maybe not what

(33:47):
you think it's all about.
That was in the movies as well as not to geton a totally different topic, but like, Ed and
Lorraine Warren, they've been proven to maybenot be the top people they.
You thought they were.
And, you know, like, Annabelle, for example,
is going on tour and they're charging a lot ofmoney to see a dao that.

(34:09):
Well,
maybe, or maybe not, or allegedly, maybecurse.
And again, that kind of comes back to.
Of. I don't see that as.
As a big deal.
I see a lot of coincidence that might happen,
like, oh, I touched the doll, and then my lifewent horrible.
Well, as we know, life can be random, right?Just things happen.

(34:30):
It's just like today you're great, andtomorrow, I don't know, your roof caved in and
you're like, wait a minute, how did thathappen?
It's just really interesting with that stuff.
Let me ask you this, too.
Kind of on a different topic with ghost too,
we were talking about, especially your.
Your character in the book having gifts and
everything.
Have you spoken to mediums or psychics or

(34:54):
empaths and.
And Kind of what's your collective,
I don't know, idea or answers when you'retalking to them, trying to figure out how they
do it and what their gifts are and so on andso forth?

Speaker A (35:07):
Well, I think of the few,
I've not talked with very many, I don't have avast experience.
But, but what I understand, what they explainis why is it surprising that some people have
this particular gift and others don't.
Everybody's not.
Kobe Bryant, you know,
he's got a special gift.
You know, Pete Rose was Pete Rose.

(35:28):
Nobody else was Pete Rose.
You know, Bryce Harper is, you know, is Bryce.
So there are.
Alex Rodriguez can do what nobody else can do.
You know,
Joe Burrow can throw the football like nobodyelse.
So he had.
They all have special gifts that, that, that
they have that, that they can use.
So it's not that surprising that there is asmall portion that may have a gift to be able

(35:53):
to see things that other people can't see.
And this just.
And it may be that they're more willing to seeit or it may be that they have some that, like
Darrell,
they've had some experience that has led to beable to have that.
So when people ask me that, I'm going, look,I, I think it's people.
I think some people have esp.
Why could they not.

(36:13):
Why should that be one area where there
couldn't be some people that have extrarefined ability in that area when we believe
every.
This person has extra refined math ability and
science ability.
So this is just one more human area thatcertainly some people could have a stronger
belief or stronger ability than others.

(36:33):
The problem, I mean, medium certainly exists.
The problem is that there are so many peoplewho try to be charlatans and try to pull that
it becomes.
It's like ghost pictures.
You know, somebody said, well, how come we
don't have modern ghost pictures?And my answer is, well, it used to be
Photoshop.
I said, now it's going to be AI you can make
anything look like anything.
I said, so you have to rely on your ownknowledge of what,

(36:57):
of what's going on and be kind of open.
I think people are.
People who see ghosts are more open to beingable to see that.
I was on a tour in Nashville, ghost tour, andwe were going by, you know, and they're
talking about places that were haunted.
And I look into this.
This was a closed room, a darkened room that
you were peering into.

(37:18):
And other people did not see it.
But I saw the.
I saw a clear orb in the room moving arounderratically, you know.
Now, why didn't the person behind me see that?
I don't know.
Maybe it was gone by then.
Maybe they don't have the.
Maybe they're not more or willing to see that
than somebody else.

Speaker B (37:35):
Yeah, and I think that's really interesting because, again, going back to the
argument, everyone has, you know, an iPhone orphone.
Why don't we have all these pictures ofghosts?
Well, I understand that, but part of thething, if a ghost would just pop up in front
of me right now,
I'm probably not thinking of grabbing myphone.
I'm probably going, whoa.
You know what I mean?
And it's not going to stay there like in themovies and just float there and be ever.

(37:59):
And I always tell people, yeah, you watch toomany movies, if you think you like it, it's a
blip, you know, because it takes a lot ofpower and energy for that person to be there
as long.
And us, too.
I mean, people don't understand.
I mean, we're full of, you know, electricityand all these things going through our veins
just to keep us alive,

(38:20):
just to move from here to there.
And if you think, you know, you have a spirit,
it's going to use energy, too.
It can't just be like, here I am,
kind of attitude and stuff like that.
Let me ask you a question.
I don't know if you've studied this at all,
but the new method right now,
I shouldn't say new, but relatively new, Iguess, is the Estes method, where people,

(38:43):
you know, put on headphones and blindfolds andstuff, and then they just are in that space.
Right.
And shutting out all noise and everything like
that.
What is your feeling on that?
Have you looked into that at all or heardanything?

Speaker A (38:56):
I haven't.
I've not experienced that, and I haven't
examined it.
I haven't talked to any group who have done
that.
I don't know enough about that.
You know, I. One of the things I.
When I talk to these groups, I'm very, verycareful.
I go, look, guys, I'm not an expert.
I happen to have learned a lot because I had
to do a lot of research on this in order tomake the books realistic, in order to make
them believable.
Yeah, but this is an area that.

(39:18):
That's.
That's way beyond my.

Speaker B (39:21):
Yeah, sure, sure.
I just think it's interesting, and I love that
they're always thinking of new ways to try tocontact the spirit world and everything like
that.
But getting back really quickly to, like,
mediums and psychics and stuff like that.
One of the things when me, I've talked to anumber of them and they're very interesting
people.
One of the things is they keep telling me, and

(39:43):
maybe Randy and me can figure this out, iseveryone has gifts.
You just.
Development.
It's kind of like, you know, I'll use thesimple analogy of riding a bike.
Like when you were a little kid and riding abike, you usually got on the bike and you fell
over and you got.
Right. But eventually.
But you could ride a bike.
And now, you know, even we're in our littleolder and stuff.

(40:04):
I'm sure me and you could get on a bike, maybenot go too far, but at least get on a bike and
paddle and go here and that's.

Speaker A (40:11):
I'll be riding a bike tomorrow.

Speaker B (40:13):
Yes,
excellent.
And that's one of the things I always find
fascinating because they're all like, youknow, you have it in you.
You may not have certain skills and everythinglike that.
So when you were writing your book and writingthe character of Daryl and stuff, was there a
point where you were thinking, wait a minute,how do I transfer this skill?

(40:34):
Or like it just shows up or you know what Imean?
To his son Leo.

Speaker A (40:39):
Well, what it.
So that's a very good.
I had decided when I. When I was notorganizing.
That's the wrong word.
But inventing this story,
I had decided that I wanted to have a fiveyear old.
I thought it would be a nice extension and Iwanted a five year old to,

(41:00):
without really knowing it,
be able to see ghosts.
He didn't even know.
And I was trying to figure out, well, howwould I make that happen?
So what,
what?I have a. I have a scene in the story where
Leo, Daryl is finishing up football practice.
Mom and Leo are coming to see dad at football
practice.
And next to the football field is a park.
So Leo goes over and can I go play in thepark?

(41:22):
And then they're playing on the park and Leois talking to somebody.
There's nobody else there but Leo.
His mom doesn't think anything of it becausekids talk to imaginary people all the time and
stuff.
Um,
later on, Leo comes back over and says, can Igo down the big slide?
She said, I don't know if you said, I forgetthe girl.
He. I forget the name I gave to the girl.

(41:43):
Ghost Madeline says it's more fun thananything else and I want to go down.
That said Madeline.
Yeah, the girl over there.
The girl I'm playing with.
Anyway, to make a long story short, Daryl And
Aaron investigate and go to the neighboringcemetery and find that this little girl died
with.
She was six years old.
And they have to explain to Leo that the ghost
has come to play with because she didn't getenough time playing when she was alive.

(42:06):
That's kind of how I decided to introduceLeo's gift.

Speaker B (42:11):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that you're being original.
That it isn't one of those things where theygot into a car accident or he fell off a
bridge or.
You know what I mean?
Like, this tropes already bugs me because thenyou're thinking of people going, lightning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, people who are going to start to do
that.

(42:31):
Like, what do you.
No, no, this is a movie.
They just threw that in there.

Speaker A (42:36):
Yeah, well.
And Daryl's origin story is.
Is similar, but different.
He sees ghosts.
So in.
In Blood on the Chesapeake, he sees ghosts
when he's 13.
The problem is the ghost that he sees is anuncle that he thinks betrayed his family.

(42:56):
And the uncle is a ghost talking to him totell him to be careful about something.
And he doesn't believe the ghost, so he.
He wants to shut that whole experience out.
You know, even though he knew the uncle wasdead, he knew that this was a ghost.
It was, you know, anyway.
So with him, it.
It evolves more naturally, but it becomes anegative experience because of who this ghost

(43:18):
was.

Speaker B (43:18):
Yeah, I love that.
So I always have to ask this of authors.
I think it's kind of funny because this has
happened to me.
When you were doing research for the books or
any of the books, was there any time where youkind of felt.
Not scared, but, like, maybe you felt likesomebody's watching you or you feel a little
uneasy or you're like, am I just in my headbecause I'm here?

(43:41):
It's like, I don't know, eight at night, andI'm going, I've been on this quite a bit
today.
And anything like that, where you felt.

Speaker A (43:48):
Like that's never been an issue for me.
I want something similar to that sometimes.
Because when I go to these places, I often ask
about native ghosts.
Local ghosts.
Yeah, because sometimes I'll include localghosts in the stories I did in Crimson at Cape
May.
There's two famous local ghosts that exist inCape May that I decided, oh, well, they would

(44:09):
be a nice add to my fictional ghost for thestory.
So. And when I'm asking about that, sometimesI'll get that, you know, people going, what?
What are you talking?You know?
Or I'll get the opposite they're going, well,let me tell you the story about the ghost in
the jailhouse.
So supposedly, 1925 jailhouse burned down and

(44:29):
three go or three men were stuck in the bar.
I get those kinds of stories as well.

Speaker B (44:33):
Yeah. And you realize, like, there are.
I mean,
time now can be a little bit rough.
Right.
But back then,
I mean, there were no safety measures oranything like something like there were no
sprinkler systems in jails or anything likethat.
There's a fire you burned alive.
You can't get out,

(44:54):
but it gets.

Speaker A (44:54):
There to get you out.
That's exactly right.

Speaker B (44:56):
Yeah.

Speaker A (44:58):
That was in Florida.
When I did the research for Crystal river in
Florida,
I didn't end up including that.
That was actually in a neighboring town.
But that was one of the examples that theygave me of ghosts.
So, you know, that's kind of part of what I doin the area now.
And what I was trying to do differently inthis book was I was trying to tap into the

(45:20):
Native Americans there.
For them, ghosts aren't something else.
Ghosts are part of what they see as thespirituality of the world around them.
So the fact that this.
Her daughter appeared to her as a mermaid,that seemed natural to her.
Because in their culture, women areresponsible for water, men are responsible for

(45:42):
fire.
That's in the.
In the.
The Gun Lake tribe culture.
So. So it wasn't like.
I mean, she's.
She's grieving,
she's desolate because she's lost herdaughter.
But the experience, the ghost experience isjust a natural extension of life for them.
So I was trying to use that as part of.
As one of the threads of the story.

Speaker B (46:04):
Yeah. And a lot of Native American tribes have spirit animals.
The wolf, the bear and everything.
Did you ever consider.
And maybe.
Maybe it's in your book, using an animal to.

Speaker A (46:17):
No, I did.
I did look that up.
And they.
They have a spirit animal of a wolf for their
tribe.
The problem is that, you know, I was trying to
say, very focused on the murder mystery, onthe first, the missing.
And then they figure out that she's beenmurdered.
And I was trying to keep the.
One of my goals always with my books is to
keep the pacing really tight.

Speaker B (46:39):
Yeah.

Speaker A (46:39):
So that every chapter does something.
We don't get very far afield from what we aredoing.
Even.
Even as Daryl and Aaron and Leo are exploring
this fun new town,
each exploration actually moves the storyforward because it gives us some new
revelation about the ghost and what may havehappened to it.
So I tried to stay very closely on tight So Idid not.

(47:03):
Even though Darrell meets with a tribal elderand Darrell gets information from the tribal
elder about what we now call mmiw.
Didn't exist.
Didn't exist at the time.
And Darrell is learning about that pretty much
for the first time in 2007.
Those parts I have built in.
And one of the things I did in this book thatwas really important to me is before I wrote

(47:25):
the book, I sat down with two actual tribal.
Tribal elders and talked to them about my
idea.
This is what I think I want to do.
Do you have some suggestions and ask them for
a direction on.
On language.
You know, what language can I use?Not.
That's not considered derogatory.
What language would they use?That would likely be what language would the

(47:47):
natives use?What language might whites use?
You know, those kinds of things.
And then when I finished, they vetted those
parts of the book to make sure that theystayed within those rounds.
Because I'm very sensitive.
I'm not a Native American.
I don't have that heritage.
I don't have that background.
But I wanted it very.
I wanted to make sure that the book reflected

(48:08):
those beliefs and where the.
Where, where.
Where they're coming from, at least in 2007.
Put it down.

Speaker B (48:16):
Yeah, that.
That is great.
I was going to ask you that because I think
that's super important because again,
you want to make it as, as authentic aspossible and not offensive to people.
They're reading this and I'm sure there arepeople who read it and be like, I don't know
about that kind of attitude, but that's alwaysfor everything.
There's always going to be something.

(48:36):
Throw it in there.
Before we wrap up here, Randy, this is anothergreat conversation.
I love talking to you and I'm excited for yourbook and definitely want to read it, but I
have a fun.
I have some fun questions for you before wewrap up here.
So if your book or books were adapted into afilm,
who would be your dream cast for the maincharacter?

Speaker A (48:58):
That's an interesting question.
Now, originally I had chose Logan Layman as a
good match for Daryl.
I thought that would.
He would work really well.
I think Salazar, somebody like a great old guy
like Salazar, somebody like Robert De Nirowould be super in that particular role.
He would be fantastic.
And I think any one of the Danes that do such

(49:19):
a wonderful job with their characters wouldplay Ann.
Gertrude would be.
They would be wonderful with that.
Gertrude.
That would be.
And I don't have an idea.
I have no idea for who.
What kids star.
I Would prefer Leo, but that's a fun question.

Speaker B (49:33):
Yeah, that's always a fun question.
I love to ask.
And then I don't know if you're really intomusic, but I have to ask this too because
music in movies to me is very important.
It moves the scene,
it makes you cry, it makes you laugh, it makesyou.
Oh, scared or whatever.
So if your book had a soundtrack,

(49:53):
like is there any musician or maybe we know ispopular, maybe we don't know who would maybe
soundtrack to your book.

Speaker A (50:02):
You know, I have to admit, John, I love music.
I listen to all.
Not all kinds, but I mean wide variety.
Everything from rhythm and blues to smoothjazz.

Speaker B (50:12):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A (50:12):
Pop and country,
bluegrass.
I like it all.
I'm not much.
I can't really get into rap, but other than
that I'm pretty much classical.
I love classical music as well, but I'm not an
expert in any of it.
It's more kind of like a something that Ienjoy.
I don't.
I don't.
I didn't even pay attention to who wrote it.

(50:33):
My trailer will be out next week.

Speaker B (50:34):
Okay.

Speaker A (50:35):
The trailer is.
Has a really great.
Now the trailer is only a minute long.
You know, it's not.
But it has a wonderful soundtrack.
And the soundtrack is called Dancing with
Ghosts.
So people watch for the trailer and listen inparticular for the soundtrack.
See if you don't think it catches the essenceof the mystery we've been talking about.

Speaker B (50:55):
Yeah, I look forward to that.
That's.
That sounds great.
So, Randy, describe your writing space.
What do you got?
You got like maybe a beverage or you got abunch of messy notes or what do you got?

Speaker A (51:09):
I have a. I have a couple notes here.
I'm kind of. But I'm.
I mean I'm not a.
I'm a specific note taker.
I like.
I will scroll this around.
My space is relatively.

Speaker B (51:23):
Wow, that's clean.

Speaker A (51:25):
I always have a note or something I'm working on.
I'm very, very fortunate.
I have a beautiful writing space.
My office.
I have a huge wonderful wood L shaped desk.
I usually have a beverage, sometimesalcoholic, but most not.
I'm drinking my iced tea this afternoon.

Speaker B (51:42):
There you go.
All right.

Speaker A (51:44):
It usually be a hot tea in the morning and I have a view that I can show, but
it's not going to show very well.
I have a view out those windows.
That's of a beautiful pond in a woods thatsits right out.
That actually gets great color in the.
In the spring and the fall.
So it is a wonderful place.
It's funny you should ask that because we

(52:04):
passed up Starbucks yesterday, day before.
And I was reminded that there are several
writers.
Some of my favorite writers tell me stories
that they spent their writing life earlysitting in a coffee shop.
Not usually a Starbucks, but a private one.
And they're doing their writing.
And my wife said, well, you don't do thatbecause you have the best writing space you

(52:24):
could right where you are in my.
In your office.
She's exactly right.
It's a.
It is it.
Every time I can sit here, there.
I can honestly say this.
There is never a time I'm sitting here andnothing comes to me.

Speaker B (52:38):
I love it.
I love it.
That sounds awesome.
I was expected.
Books piled to the ceiling.

Speaker A (52:45):
No, I'm a little.
Now you can see the.
I have plenty of books behind me.
You can see.

Speaker B (52:49):
Well, yeah, yeah.
But nothing like, you know.

Speaker A (52:51):
No, no. I'm a little.
I'm not quite OCD like Daryl, but I'm a little
too organized.

Speaker B (53:01):
That's great.
So last question here before we wrap up.
What question do you wish someone would askyou about your book, but no one has.

Speaker A (53:10):
That's a great one.
Okay.
No, nobody has asked me.
Well, you know, no one has asked me, like,
what's next?

Speaker B (53:18):
Right.
There you go.

Speaker A (53:19):
Okay. So are you done? Is there another story in here?
What comes after this?

Speaker B (53:25):
Right.

Speaker A (53:26):
At least they haven't asked me that yet.
That doesn't mean that that won't happen.
But, you know, and I'm happy to say it's not.
I don't know.
I'm not done, but I don't know whether this
story is done.
You know, I have two series this.
The Haunted Shore mystery is the fourth.
I have another series that we talked aboutlast time called Cruel Lessons, which is not a
paranormal.
And my latest is a.

(53:46):
Has nothing to do with either.
The first two.
It's a historical suspense about theRevolutionary War that I'm working with an
agent to hopefully find a home for it prettysoon.
So. And. And. And then after that, I'm workingon the second entry in the crew and the
Lessons in Peril series after that.
I'm really anxious to see how readers respond

(54:07):
to Daryl and Aaron and especially little Leo,because if the response is like, I think it's
going to be,
I'll make sure that I'm.
I'm going to have another stop on the.
On their.
On their life journey that involves ghosts.
That's for sure.

Speaker B (54:19):
I love it.
So thank you so much, Randy.
This was great.
I look forward to having you on when your next
book comes out and we can talk about thatbecause that would be fun too.
So where can we find, you know, your book andall, you know, find you and all that good
stuff?

Speaker A (54:35):
Thank you for asking.
The easiest way to find me and my book,
excuse me, is simply on my website,
which is just author randyoverbeck.
Com. On that website, there's a direct link to
any of my books, more importantly to my newbook.
And there's a, there's a link that'll take youto Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Apple Books, any

(54:56):
place that carries the books that you like tobuy your books from.
You can go straight from there.
The books is available, ebook and print.
There will be an audiobook available, butusually that's several months after the book
launches.
So it's a couple months ahead of when people
will be hearing this or watching this.

Speaker B (55:12):
Sure. Awesome.
So please give them the title again, Randy, so
they can find it called.

Speaker A (55:18):
Red Shadows at Saugatuck, the fourth entry in the Haunted Shore mystery
series by.

Speaker B (55:24):
Randy Overbeck and it has won multiple awards.
The reviews look great and I'm excited foryou, Randy, because again, like we said at the
beginning here, independent authors are thelifeblood of keeping people reading and
keeping new ideas out there and keeping freshideas out there and especially anything to do

(55:46):
with the paranormal.
I love because it's so interesting to me andthere's so many stories and this story sounds
amazing.
I look forward to reading it and sharing it
with my friends and very excited about it.
So thank you, Randy.
Taking time out.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker A (56:02):
Thank you.
Delighted to be here, John.
Look forward to our next get together.
Until then, what I say is keep reading those
great, great stories.
I hope one of them mine.

Speaker B (56:12):
Absolutely. Well, thanks Randy and we will talk later.
Have a great day.

Speaker A (56:17):
See you.

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Author Randy Overbeck Red Shadows at Saugatuck – Ghosts, Mystery & Indigenous Justice

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Author Randy Overbeck Red Shadows at Saugatuck – Ghosts, Mystery & Indigenous Justice