The Mystery of Mel’s Hole & Haunted Lives with Red Tree House

Hello spooky friends! 👋 Welcome back to Dairyland Frights, the Midwest’s paranormal podcast, where we dive into everything eerie, creepy, and unexplained.

In this episode, John sits down with Will from the Red Tree House podcast, a master storyteller of the strange, to explore the world of hauntings, curses, possessions, and one of the strangest urban legends ever told: Mel’s Hole in Washington State.

🌲 What You’ll Hear in This Episode:

• Will’s personal experiences living in a haunted house—including encounters with a playful spirit nicknamed Henry and a darker, more sinister presence.

• The strange discovery of a hidden graveyard near his home and how it ties into unexplained activity.

• A deep dive into the bizarre legend of Mel’s Hole: a supposed bottomless pit said to resurrect animals, alter metals, and attract government cover-ups.

• The blurred lines between urban legend, supernatural mystery, and psychological suggestion.

• Why some paranormal stories stick with us even when science says they’re impossible.

👻 Whether you’re a skeptic, a believer, or somewhere in between, this episode will have you questioning what lies beneath the ground… and what might be lurking in your own home.

🔗 Connect with Will & Red Tree House:

• Podcast: Red Tree House (Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube)

• Instagram redtreehousepod

✨ Support Dairyland Frights: If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us keep bringing you creepy tales from the Midwest and beyond!

Stay spooky, friends. 👻

Episode Transcript

Speaker A (00:00):
Foreign,
the paranormal podcast that covers everythingspooky, creepy, and mysterious in the Midwest
and beyond.

(00:20):
And I'm your host, John, as always.
And today,
one of my favorite guests.
I had to have her back on because she's
amazing.
She is just, like I said, one of my favorites.
I love her to death because she does so much
and we had so much fun the last time.
Here, it's KJ from Mad City Ghost Walks.

(00:41):
Welcome, kj.

Speaker B (00:42):
Thank you for having me back.
Happy to be here.

Speaker A (00:44):
Yes. Yes. So I'm so.
Yes.
We didn't know we had a crowd in here, didyou?

Speaker B (00:51):
No. You should have warned me.
I'm scared.
Maybe you have ghosts in your lot, in your.
In your space.

Speaker A (00:56):
I love it.
Let's do that.
KJ is just not a great host of Mad City.
Go, Go.
And we'll get into that a little bit.
But she's a paranormal investigator and also
she's a lecturer, and she did a nice littlelecture about Gettysburg, which we'll get
into.
But let's start out with Mad City Ghost Walks.

(01:20):
So in our last episode kind of talked about,you know, that was a little while ago.
Well, this spooky season is almost upon us.
And what would be a great treat for someone,
your spooky friend or if you're just lookingto be like, I didn't know Madison was haunted.
There's places in Madison and they're haunted.
AJ why don't you just kind of give a brief

(01:43):
summary or whatever you want to talk aboutwith Mad City Ghost Walks,
what you're looking forward to here in theHalloween season.

Speaker B (01:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Spooky season to me comes right after Labor
Day.
Well, if it's not 24 7, it's like first week
of September is go time.
So Mad City Ghost Walks we have done.
I've done a handful of tours so far,
but they're really starting to pick up.
And yes, Madison is capital H, haunted.
And we're just doing a fraction of the city,

(02:12):
hopefully more places in the future.
But we do walking tours.
They're two hour walking tours of downtownMadison throughout the university.
And then we also do cemetery tours of ForestHill Cemetery, which is the largest and one of
the oldest cemeteries in Madison with a lot ofstories and a lot of ghosts as well.

Speaker A (02:34):
I love it.
And I will hopefully can get on a tour because
KJ has been nice enough to, you know, tell me,hey, Johnny, gonna get on tour.
Even though I've lived in Wisconsin, aroundthe Madison area all my life,
I'm like, still like, oh, yeah, that'shaunted.
And that's haunted.
I totally forgot that we talked about lasttime, but can you just tell my spooky friends

(02:59):
again,
what is your favorite haunted place in Madisonor just surrounding areas?

Speaker B (03:06):
Oh, gosh.
Favorite spooky place in Madison?
Well, there are a few.
Some of them aren't even open anymore.
But I am thinking I love Forest Hill Cemetery.
That has become kind of my lately my most
favorite spooky, but beautifully spooky.

(03:28):
Not like it's not a creepy, haunted, abandoned
cemetery.

Speaker A (03:32):
Yes, right.

Speaker B (03:33):
It's a garden cemetery.
It's a beautiful cemetery, but there are trees
there that are hundreds of years old, andit's.
It's like a. You're frozen in time when you gothrough Forest Hill and there's so many paths
and it's so quiet and it's so peaceful,
but there is just this undercurrent ofspookiness there because there's so many

(03:53):
untold stories that I've actually done a lotof research into some of those unmarked
graves.
So you can't find their grave, but their story
still remains.
So I've.
I've had fun finding stories to tell, and
something always happens on one of my tours.
I. I don't want to give it away, but there's.
I feel like with my cemetery tours, thespirits are with us.

(04:15):
Let me just put it that way that I love.

Speaker A (04:18):
Just. Just so we can tease the audience a little bit.
Can you just give one quick example just forme?

Speaker B (04:26):
Sure.
Well, there's a ghost.
So the cemetery tours aren't just this
person's buried here and this person's buriedhere.
Like I actually have.
We talk a lot about symbolism in cemeteries,
the history of cemeteries.
What's the difference between a cemetery and agraveyard?
There actually is a difference.
So you're going to be educated as well as

(04:47):
maybe a little spooky and a little bit.
I don't want you to be scared on my tour,
certainly.
But there was a story at Forest Hill where oneof the.
The groundskeepers was just doing his roundsand came across.
He happened to just notice a woman that washunched over one of the graves, and she was
dressed in all black.

(05:07):
And it was.
Something just seemed off.
It wasn't period appropriate clothing.
It was older, like a morning gown.
And he thought, well, that was weird.
And it was in the middle of like a Sunday
afternoon,
and he just thought, okay, I'll leave her to.
To do her thing.
And when he came back a little bit later inthe afternoon, still just doing his rounds, he
had his dog with him in the truck.

(05:28):
You know, they're just doing theirgroundskeeping kind of.
Kind of roles.
And someone in that same area had pulled over
and flagged him down.
He said, excuse me, I'm looking for my.
My great grandfather's or my greatgrandmother's gravestone.
She was buried here.
I just.
I don't remember where it is.
And he just kind of said, what if it is itover there?

(05:48):
And he pointed to where this woman was.
And he, sure enough, that was that person's
great grandmother's grave.
He had no way of knowing that.
And he said,
I. I gotta tell you, I saw a woman by thatgrave earlier, dressed in all black clothing.
And he described her, and the guy's like that.
That was my great grandmother.
And he had a picture and everything.
And apparently there was some family ritual

(06:12):
where every year on the anniversary of herdeath, they would go visit her grave.
And he was running late.
And the groundskeeper.
So the.
The grandson didn't see the ghost.
The groundskeeper saw the ghost.
The dog saw the ghost.
Saw the ghost.
But he said, yeah, I guess we were a little
too late.
But that was my grandmother and I. I hearstuff like that.
And I'm just like, wow,

(06:33):
that is so cool.

Speaker A (06:35):
Right?

Speaker B (06:35):
And that happens.
That happens in a lot of cemeteries.
That's kind of a common story I've heard amongpeople, is that they see the ghost of the
person at that grave.
Isn't that wild?

Speaker A (06:46):
Awesome. That. That is totally wild.
I love stories like that because that is soindicative of, you know, there's a lot of
restless spirits in graveyards and cemeteries,
which makes so much great folklore and so muchfun, but also can be a little bit creepy, you

(07:08):
know,
which is always fun too.
Sometimes the hair stands on the back of your
neck.
There's nothing wrong with that, right?

Speaker B (07:15):
Absolutely.
And that's what happened to that
groundskeeper.
And I.
I look at the bigger picture, and I'mthinking, why was he meant to see that ghost
but not the family member?
You know, did it change him going forward?Was he a skeptic until he saw that?
And sometimes I feel that some of the.
The most skeptical people or the most.
I don't believe in that, are the ones that endup having a profound experience that just

(07:37):
shakes them to their core.

Speaker A (07:39):
Yeah, I. I totally agree with that.
Because, you know, being in the paranormal,
we're both in the paranormal, but it seemslike ghosts are like, yeah,
that dude hearing.
No,
let's.
Let' at that guy who doesn't care about,
like, I don't believe in any of this.
It's totally.

Speaker B (07:57):
And we believe in it, so maybe that person will get something out of that.
So I thought that was an interesting story.
And a lot of it's just research, but it's also
talking to the people that work at thesecemeteries.
They have the stories.

Speaker A (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's really great.
I've been on a number of tours and, like Isaid, look forward to being on your tour.
What else can people expect,
you know, being on your tour?
Anything else you'd like to share that, youknow, people who listen to this be like, oh,
that sounds great.
You know, that's a little different from other
tours I've been on.

Speaker B (08:28):
Yeah. I like to say it's a safe place to talk about weird stuff.
Some people are a little, like, nervous to beon a tour.
I'm going here because my wife made me go onthe ghost tour.
You know, it's interactive.
I am not one, and I admire.
There's so many different types of tour guysout there too, that are.
Some are historians.
Some of them have some more history or

(08:49):
architecture into their stories.
But I'm a storyteller, and I'm a paranormal
investigator.
Like, I'm not just memorizing a script.
I'm researching this, I'm writing this, I'minvestigating this, and I'm excited about it.
I'm not being the kind of broody storyteller.
I am a creepy person giving.
And I've been on tours like that.
And that's awesome.

(09:09):
That's not my style.

Speaker A (09:10):
Yeah, sure.

Speaker B (09:11):
I have fun with the paranormal.
I think the paranormal is fun and absurd andweird, and things that have happened to me in
my life don't make sense.
It's.
It's.
It's playful, it's intelligent.
And so I try to bring that into my tours.
So, yeah, some of the details are scary.
But ultimately,
I want you to leave my tour with morequestions than answers.

(09:32):
I want you to think about your relationshipwith the paranormal, your relationship with
the cemetery.
And the tour isn't over just because it's beentwo hours and it's time to go home.
I want you to be thinking about it the rest ofthe day.

Speaker A (09:45):
Yeah, And I love that.
That's perfect because that's a great tour,
right?That you go into someone who loves what
they're talking about, is passionate aboutwhat they talking about.
And then also you kind of question, like,
you know, before I was going in, and thenafter being KJ and being on the tour, and
seeing her love and passion and the.
And the history she talks about,

(10:06):
I'm going to look at it a little differentlythan maybe I did in the past.
And that's what we want to do here, you know,on this podcast, as well as other podcasts, as
well as you want to do,
is take away some of the mystique.
Right?
You get either people are total skeptics,like, that's impossible, that that can't
happen, or people are so into it, they justwant to know more.

(10:28):
I think that's me and you, you know,
and most of them hanging out.
So that, to me, is interesting.
At the great.
At the cemetery.

Speaker B (10:37):
I want skeptics to come on my tour.
You know, you can.
You could come.
It's open for everybody.
Everyone can have a good time, even if you
don't believe it.
Fine.
It's great storytelling for two hours.
I hope.
I hope that's what I'm giving.
And it seems to be going well.
And we've got tours coming up.
I've got about 10 or 12 people on a tour in a
couple of weeks, so it just.
It keeps growing, and it's.

(10:58):
It's excited that so many other people are
also excited about the history of Madison.
Whether you're from Madison or you're justvisiting for the weekend, everyone can enjoy
this tour.

Speaker A (11:09):
Absolutely.
And one of the biggest things, too, I've beenon numerous tours, and most of them have been
pretty.
Pretty well done, and I enjoy it.
And I've interviewed different people from,like, the Door county,
from Savannah,
from also Texas, you know, so some differentpeople on different tours, and everybody is a

(11:32):
little different.
But again, I think that kind of gives you the
options to be like, okay, you know, this isthe kind of tour I like,
you know, being interactive, talking aboutweird stuff.
And I think one of the main things, too, thatpeople don't understand, which I think is when
you look at the history of cemeteries,
it used to be like a park, and that just blowsme away.

(11:55):
So, like, in the 1800s, you would go and havea picnic, you know, at a park, and I think
that's really interesting.

Speaker B (12:02):
Men didn't want me spilling all the secrets about my tour, apparently.
Anyway, where were we?You're talking about Door County.

Speaker A (12:09):
Yeah, yeah, I was talking about with Door county, you know, and they have a
different type of tour also.
Savannah talked to Savannah, Georgia talked to
tours about that, and they're different, too.
And. And I love that you're an interactinteractive.
You talk about stuff.
I think that that's great.
And I think that what makes a great tour.

Speaker B (12:29):
Yeah. And we're looking at.
I like that you said Door County.
I'm trying to plan a trip there in the spring.
I think they do trolley tours and bar crawls
and all these things.
So those are options that Mad City Ghost Walksis hopefully expanding in the future.
So I. I've never been to Savannah.
I really want to be there.
I want to go on a ghost tour there, too.
So it's just.

(12:49):
It's neat to see not only the history, but.
But the mystery and then the.
Just the personality that tour guides bring
because you can.
You know, it's.
It's.
It's.
It's a challenge.
You know, you're trying to keep people
occupied and interested and curious for twohours.
And I have a lot of fun doing it.
So it's not really even work.
It's just, let's go talk.
Let's have a good time.

(13:10):
Ask me questions.
I'm an open book.
I love talking weird, so come on down.

Speaker A (13:15):
I love.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
Because I think that's something that gets
lost.
And certain tours, you know, people are justdoing their job, and I get that.
But I was saying with cemeteries that used tobe treated like a park.
You know what I mean?
Like, you would get your family together andyou get a picnic basket, and you would sit in

(13:35):
front of your grandpas or uncles or whatever,Gravestone, headstone, and just have a
conversation.
So I thought that was really interesting thatyou don't see people doing that much anymore.
And I can see why it's still.
I think, why not?
Right?Right.

(13:56):
I understand why people kind of look at itlike it might be weird.
But why is it weird?Because there's nothing wrong with going out
and talking to your mom, your dad, your uncle,brother, whatever, and just having that
communication and maybe just sitting down andhaving a talk.

Speaker B (14:14):
I don't think about that.

Speaker A (14:15):
You know, I.

Speaker B (14:16):
The great.
The cool thing is about Forest Hill cemeteries
that there's still.
Actually, they're called carriage steps that
are, like, old.
They almost look.
You think they're gravestones, but they'renot.
They're steps that lead up to a loved.
A family's burial plot.
So you'll see carriage steps because you'dpull your carriage up with your horse and
you'd get out for your Sunday picnic, andthose still remain from 100, 150 years ago.

(14:39):
They're still there at Forest Hill,
so that you are walking the same steps thatthese people have done for generations.
And Telling those stories.
Yeah,
it's a really cool place.

Speaker A (14:51):
I love.
I love it.
The only cemetery that I would love to go to,
and I don't know you've heard about this one,but we did a episode on.
Is the Bachelor's Grove Cemetery,
Illinois.
That's.
Oh, okay.
So tell me a little bit about your experience.

Speaker B (15:11):
I haven't gone there.
It was a couple of years ago.
I was going through Chicago area en route to aparanormal conference, I think, and I was
like, well, I gotta go to Bachelor's Grove.
And it's a little tricky to find because it'sjust.
It's like right on a highway, so you have tokind of park and cross the street and.
And it's.
It's spooky.
It's one of the.
I, you know, I don't know the history of it

(15:31):
right now off the top of my head, but it is anolder cemetery that experiences light orbs and
voices and wispy shadow figures.
And there's a lot of children buried there anda lot of, like, artifacts and toys and
pictures and teddy bears.
So there's just this kind of eeriness to it
because it's.
It's a lot of kids, unfortunately, becausekids died a lot back in the 1800s because we

(15:54):
didn't have vaccines.
And, you know, there's.
Well, that's a whole other thing.
But it's.
You. You go back in time and it's kind ofovergrown, it's a little unruly.
There's, like, weird trees hanging.
So there's.
There's definitely a presence back there forsure.

Speaker A (16:08):
Absolutely.
And it has one of the most famous pictures,
I put it in my social media,
of a woman sitting near a.
Yes, a gravestone.
And it's a full body apparition.
And a lot of people think it was the mother
and she lost her baby.

(16:29):
Have you seen this picture?
Like.
Oh, that's Photoshop or whatever?No, this picture was taken, I think, what, in
the 30s or something?Like, it was a long, long time ago.
I don't know when, but it.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker B (16:42):
And it doesn't.
It's not even like a scary picture.
You just.
It's someone just taking a picture of this
plot, and then when they developed it, you seejust a woman sitting there, and it's.
She just looks like she's sitting there, andthat wasn't really there.
I forgot about that picture.
That's.
That's the thing.
Like, sometimes you get paranormal evidence
when you're not even looking for it.
You're Just being there in the moment andexisting, and something shows itself to you.

Speaker A (17:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I can tell you just really two quickstories about my experience at graveyards.
Maybe I'll have this one at Forest Hills.
So in Savannah,
the graveyards there are, like, in the middleof the city.
It's weird.
Like, you know, it's just bizarre.

(17:25):
Like, you walk, like, you go to, like, a.
A bar, and then you walk a little bit, andhere's this graveyard.
Like, they just plopped it right in the middleof Savannah.
And that graveyard was one of the most famousones.
There's been a number of experiences in there,good and bad,
when, if you know your history,

(17:46):
Savannah.
I found out from people I interviewed Savannah
was not like a typical battle town.
But Sherman, on his march to the sea,
burned Savannah, a lot of it, to the ground,you know, when he was going there.
And one of the things is the Civil War soldierstood in this graveyard and total,

(18:08):
totally desecrated it.
So they went into mausoleums and threw the
bodies out and built fires in there because itwas a little cold.
Newly fresh,
dug graves.
They threw the bodies out of the graves and
slept in the graves because, again, warmer.
They totally desecrated this graveyard.

(18:29):
So when I went on the tour,
past certain time, they do not let you go intoit because people have gone into it, have been
pushed, scratched,
bruises,
mostly women have been hair pulled,
pushed, attacked,

(18:50):
you name it.
So they will not let you go into this grave on
the tour.
After a certain amount of time, you can walk
up to the fence and do that and look inside.
Basically has huge chains on the.
On the doors to get in.
So when I was walking past kj, I took my phoneout and I was taking pictures, and my phone
didn't work at all.

(19:11):
Did not work at all.
It just would, you know, try to snap.
And I.
Nothing. Nothing's happened.
Ah, it's my phone, right?
You know, it's a little.
Okay.
I get back to my hotel room and I just takesome pictures, work perfect.
I went back the next morning because I was ona business trip, and the business I was going
to was near there.

Speaker B (19:32):
And I.

Speaker A (19:32):
And I tried it again,
same thing.
KJ would not take any pictures.
Phone wouldn't work.
And that's actually true.
A lot of people have experienced that.
At least what I've been told.
When they've tried to take pictures, eithersomething comes up or they're picked.
Their phone, their camera.
If they ask, the camera still does not work.

(19:55):
Has that ever happened on one of your tourswhere Someone has gotten out their phone and
been like, hey, I'm trying to take a picture.
Why isn't this working?

Speaker B (20:02):
Yeah, I'm open to that.
I was trying to think.
I'm like,
sures, no, that hasn't happened yet.
If they've caught anything.
Because I encourage people, I'm like, pleasetake pictures.
Please take video clips,
and if you catch something, let me know andwe'll look at it together and I can teach you
debunking skills.
That's a piece of dust.
That's a moth.
That's not a ghost.

(20:23):
So I. That's fantastic.
I've heard that, though.
I've had my phone, not on my tours, but in
some places that I've investigated, like, thebattery will drain.
And it's the.
The timing is interesting because it's right
around the same time that we may have capturedsome evidence in a different room that my
phone just went down to 20%.
So you have to wonder, is something pullingenergy from that to either manifest or to

(20:47):
prohibit you from going in that cemetery andsaying,
no, you're not allowed here, Mr. White Guy, orwhatever it is?
You know, they could be telling you, you couldbe.
Could be like,
you're not coming in here.
That's kind of spooky, but compelling.

Speaker A (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And then the other thing was years ago,
I went on the Door County Trolley tour,
and when I went on that, I actually had adigital camera with me, full batteries, full
everything.
On the tour.
If you go on it, there is a plot where it isthe.

(21:22):
The husband, wife, and their two youngchildren all buried together.
Well, there were some bad things thathappened.
This is 1800s, you know, the children diedearly, then the wife and then the husband.
And some say they were cursed by a witch or,
you know, there's this big long story.
So when I tried again with my digital camera,tried to take a picture,

(21:43):
would not work.
Would not work.
And when I did get some pictures out there, itwas like blur, you know what I mean?
Like, you know how some people, you take yourcamera and you just don't hold it steady
enough and then you're like, oh, man, I shouldhave held that steadier.
That's what happened.
Just totally.
And got back to the.
The hotel, took pictures with it, purpose, noproblem.

(22:04):
And I asked the guide, and he said, yeah, thathappens.
We have a lot of people.
That happens too.
So just.
That's fascinating to me that that power, thatenergy around that gravestone has enough power
to affect the electronic device, but drain abattery, not have it work.
Cause blurs on your camera.

(22:26):
I mean, that's.
That just blows me away.

Speaker B (22:28):
Yeah. And there's.
There's something to that, because it happens.
It's too not.
Not coincidental.
Like, it's too on point sometimes where it'slike, no, don't take my picture, or, hey, I'm
trying to get your attention.
Or if you don't take things from people'sgraves.
I'm just hypothetically, you know, if there's.
Because people leave offerings on graves, like

(22:48):
shells or coins,
don't move them,
because then your car might not start, or yourradio goes in and out or some weird mechanical
failure happens in your car.
Not saying that I have ever, ever doneanything like that, but put it back.
Leave it alone.
It's an offering that's not yours.

Speaker A (23:07):
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B (23:09):
Word to the wise.

Speaker A (23:13):
Absolutely. And I think we talked about this before.
Kj, have you ever had a feeling or a spiritfollow you home?

Speaker B (23:22):
Well, we just had one that turned off our podcast.
No.
Maybe. I don't know.
My lights flicker sometimes.
I don't know.
Maybe it's my cat who passed on this summ.
I think I've had a couple.
No, that's fine.
She can help me all she wants.
There was.
There were a couple times that I may havebrought some little thing home from, you know,

(23:42):
like, an abandoned farmhouse, but I didn't.
It wasn't anything valuable.
It was like a cassette tape.
It was like just some little, like, littletchotchke thing.
And I stopped doing that.
My friend.
I will.
Cause I don't know if he wants to be known
that he witnessed this, but we.
We came over and we were watching TV after
exploring an abandoned place.
And the volume on my TV went all the way upand then all the way down.

(24:03):
Neither of us touched the TV or on the remoteor anything.
And he's like, did you do that?I'm like, no.
And it just so happened.
It was right after I took this little thing
from a house.
I thought, is that a coincidence?
Is that someone saying, put me back?So.
So I stopped doing that.
That was years ago.
So I'm like, nope.

(24:24):
Everything can just stay where it's at.
That's great.
If I'm not allowed to take pictures, I will
respect that if the pictures don't turn out.
Sometimes when I'm editing a photo of agravestone or a haunted place, like the edits,
like it crashes, like the system crashes, orthe phone reboots, like there's been times,
and it's never.
If I'M editing a picture of, like, anythingelse.

(24:46):
It's always when.
It's when I've been at a spooky place that's
haunted.
Even the.
The. The.

Speaker A (24:51):
The little.

Speaker B (24:51):
I don't know.
I don't know how to explain how a phone works,
but just stuff happens, and I don't know why.
Maybe it's me.

Speaker A (24:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's one thing that I was talking about to some of my
guests, which I found fascinating.
One of.
One of my guests was talking about they wereon an investigation, you know, and they.
Basically, what they were doing is similar toyou, but they're investigating a house.
So they just have regular people.
You can go on this investigation, and you can

(25:20):
help with the equipment and ask questions andstuff.
But this one woman felt,
like, super nauseous and super anxiety, andshe.
She had to walk out of the house.
And the paranormal investigator.
Head paranormal investigator, which, again,
this is so fascinating to me, said to her,

(25:40):
you know, it's none of my business, but areyou currently on any medication for anxiety or
depression?Or are you having maybe some issues with
depression?And she's like.
She's like, yes, I am.
And he said, that ghost.
It was a male, unruly ghost,
you know, kind of a **** ghost,

(26:01):
sought her out and attacked her because hecould.
Because of her depression.
And again, I just find that it just blows mymind that something would do that.
You know, a ghost.
Has that ever happened, you know,

(26:21):
maybe in an investigation to you or to someoneelse, that someone's kind of singled somebody
out?

Speaker B (26:28):
That's a good question.
My. My gears were turned.
And as you were telling that story.
Cause I've heard that before from people.
I've known people that had that happen.
I felt really nauseated myself and sad and
just kind of like I don't.
I don't want to be here.
When I was at Pennhurst Asylum in
Pennsylvania,
and again, I'm trying to be as rational andskeptical as I can.

(26:51):
I'm not saying skeptical, doesn't believe.
I don't believe in it.
It just means information.
That's what skepticism is, is.
I just need more information.
And I just.
I felt sick.
I felt weird.
I felt nauseated.
I felt like everyone was, like, looking at me.
And I've been in abandoned asylums before andhave had different emotions and different
experiences.
So I don't know if there's just asbestos

(27:12):
everywhere, and I was actually having avisceral reaction to being in a place like
that or if it's just because of that thetragic and sick and suffering history that is
associated with Pennhurst Asylum is stilllingering.
And I'm feeling that I'm sensitive.
So I. I don't know.
And I like the feeling of not knowing.

(27:34):
I don't want to know.
I just want to experience it and learn from itand tell people about it.
I think it's.
It's good to confront those uncomfortableemotions sometimes and sit with them.
And there was a time I was at a.
A bar.
Actually, it was the old Bare Boo Inn.
I think we talked about that on the lastpodcast there was.

(27:56):
And sometimes I like going into a place andnot know the history.
Like, don't tell me that there's a ghost thatlooks like this over here, because then I'll
just probably create that in my mind.
So just don't tell me anything.
And I happen to be in an area in the front of
the old Baraboo Inn where I. I felt like this.
Like, I felt.
I was like, gosh, I feel this oppressive,like,
feeling on my throat.

(28:17):
I was like.
And they had told me.
They said, yeah, there's a story back from
when this was the old rowdy cowboy bar thatsomeone was hanged from that beam that I was
standing under going, oh, and someone washanged there.
And so me being one that likes the stone tape,residual haunting theory,

(28:38):
I didn't interpret that as there's someonetrying to get me out.
Like, I didn't interpret it that way.
I interpreted as I just walked into, like, a
time warp briefly, where I felt what he mighthave felt.
And so I would love to learn more about thatwoman's story where she had that happen.
And I'm not discounting her story.

(28:58):
I just sometimes have a different take on
things.
Like, maybe the spirit wasn't trying to affect
her.
Maybe he was trying to communicate with her.
Maybe he was just trying to say, hey, here'swhat I felt in this moment, in this space,
and you're feeling that, and then you justreact to your body's sensation, and that's
where the emotion comes from.

Speaker A (29:15):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And I think that's really interesting, too,
because it takes so much energy for a spiritto do that people don't understand.
It's not like me and you talking.
You know what I mean?
It takes energy for us to do this, right?But when you're dead and you.
You know,
it takes more energy,

(29:37):
quite a bit of energy to even have physicalcontact,
to have a voice, have touch, you have anythinglike that or the for to someone to impose
their will or A spirit to impose their will, Ishould say.
That is powerful stuff.

(29:58):
Right?
I mean, that's just unbelievable stuff.
Now, that being said, if you're with KJ and on
her tour and there's something going on,
make sure you let her know, you know,obviously she wants you to be safe and
everything like that.
But, you know, the main thing is to understandyou're gonna have a great time and everything.
So that's awesome.

(30:19):
So let's move on to.
You were at Gettysburg.

Speaker B (30:26):
I was at Gettysburg, end of August, August 23rd, thereabouts.
And what was I doing?I was doing everything there.
I was invited there by the association ofParanormal Study.
I had applied to be a single speaker at theirannual symposium way back earlier in the year.
Yeah, yeah.
This is not.

(30:47):
Yeah, it's fancy.
It's not just like a paracon.
Nothing against paracons.
You know, where it's fun and there's vendorsand you can buy stuff and like,
this is like a symposium.
This is like you sit and you go to a
conference.
It's like every hour there's speakers talking
about their research and their theories andtheir papers and their books that they've

(31:09):
written.
You look at their website and you look at thelist of speakers and it's people with PhDs and
all this stuff.
I'm like, wow.
And you invited me.
I'm just.
I did.
Gross.
Yours.
So I was happy to be a part of such afantastic group of very intelligent, very
committed, passionate polymaths of theparanormal.

(31:30):
And so I. Yeah, I'd gone up to Gettysburg andit was a two day conference, one day
conference.
There was a party the night before and thenthere was a conference all day,
different speakers at different venues, alldowntown Gettysburg.
I was like, this is a dream come true.

Speaker A (31:44):
Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like it.
That's still on my wish list to get there.
So kj, what did you talk about?What was your main lecture speech that.

Speaker B (31:55):
You kind of talked about? I talked about.
I presented my theory on the stone tapetheory.
It's called if walls could talk.
And it's the science of residual hauntings tounderstand the stone tape theory.
And we talked about a little bit about that inthe last podcast too, that hauntings, not all
hauntings are these conscious entities tryingto communicate with you.
They're just an imprint, like a psychic bleedthrough in the environment.

(32:19):
And it was really neat to not only give apresentation about that, but in Gettysburg in
a haunted building.
And the building I spoke in was the oldorphanage downtown, which when they told me I
Was speaking at the orphanage.
I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me.
That was like, you wanna talk about anotherbuilding that affected me?

(32:41):
I had toured that building and I left just intears.
It was the most terrifying building I've everbeen in in my life.
So of course I'm going to go speak in thatbuilding about ghosts.
And when I was in that building, I was like,looking around.
I'm like,
I have to give a very important presentation.
Do not affect me.
Like,
be nice.

(33:01):
And nothing weird happened during the
presentation that I'm aware of.
Yeah. So I got to talk about that.
In the chapel area,
Stories about ghosts in Gettysburg.
In Gettysburg, in the most haunted building in
their chapel.
So I felt kind of protected at the same time.

Speaker A (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, obviously.
Can you give my spooky friends a briefdescription?
We didn't.
We got into a little bit in our last episode.
Can.
Can you, you know, talk a little about stone
tape theory and why it's so important in theparadigm?

Speaker B (33:33):
Some people love it, some people hate it.
It's.
But who cares?
It's a theory.
Nobody knows the answer.
This is what we do.
We go to these conferences and we talk about
theories and we talk about ideas and stoneTape theory is the idea that the environment
acts like a primitive tape recorder.
Some of us are old enough to remember what atape recorder is.
And I actually have one that I bring with me.

(33:54):
Like, this is a tape recorder.
And because tape recorders are, in essence,electromagnetic energy that is being
manipulated through plastic that's covered iniron oxide powder.
Okay?That's a metallic.
That's a metal that is.
It amplifies circuitry.
So why not the iron or the quartz or thelimestone or the gold?

(34:18):
All of these naturally occurring elements inthe environment also amplify circuitry.
And they're in our watches and they're in ourcell phones.
We. They're in this laptop.
Why can't the environment act as a digitalrecorder?
And I explore some of the science thatsuggests that that's possible.
Like the powers of our DNA, the powers ofwater having kind of an electromagnetic memory

(34:43):
on a molecular level.
Water molecules can actually communicate withone another.
And I wrote a paper about this too.
So it's a lot of interesting kind of what I
call weird science where you look at thescience and you look at the paranormal
implication of it.
And to me, it really resonates with me.
And literally it resonates with me is that you

(35:06):
go to a place like Gettysburg, which is.
I call it paranormal Disneyland,
because the Earth Is saturated.
The rocks,
the walls are still there.
The breastworks are still there.
The cannons are still there.
The trees are still there.
The very environment that 50,000 people diedin in three days.

(35:27):
50,000 people.
Okay,
we can't even fathom that.
It's the blood, the energy, the terror, the
courage.
All of those emotions saturate the environment
of Gettysburg.
And so, under certain conditions that we don'tunderstand yet, those memories play back.
Those soldiers are still walking on thebattlefield.

(35:50):
They're not walking and stuck in time.
They're.
Oh, I'm.
I'm a soul that can't leave.
I'm trapped.
No, it's just an image that's burned into theenvironment.
That's what stone tape theory says.

Speaker A (36:00):
Yeah, I love that because it's like.
Like how we as human beings, how we soak upcertain emotions over certain things.
Like, for example, let's say, you know, youused to go with, I don't know, your mom to a
deli downtown.
And let's say your mom passes.

(36:22):
When you go to that deli, you feel that
emotion, right?You.
You feel, oh, my God.
This is where mom and I went every Sunday
afternoon.
And mom got him, you know, a sandwich, and Igot a milkshake, and it was.
We talked and laughed and.
Right.
There's that experience of seeing that, of
just being at that place and everything likethat.

(36:44):
And then imagine that now that it's blood,guts, pain, misery,
just compacted by 50,000 people,
right?And their energy just absorbed into the rocks
and the trees and the ground.
That's a lot, right?

(37:05):
That. That's super interesting to me how thatworks.
Let me ask you this question, because I'veheard this before that kind of related to
stone tape theory a little bit,
that there are certain anniversaries ofbattles.
There's.
There's certain times of the day.
There's certain.

(37:26):
A full moon,
maybe a thunderstorm.
What do you think about that?That kind of, like, activated, right?
That, like, that's the trigger?

Speaker B (37:34):
I'm really glad you asked that question, because that is something I talk
about in my paper, and my.
My presentation is that I think as paranormal
investigators, we need to not just look forevidence in our gadgets, but look at the
environment in which it's happening.
Try to find a pattern of, wow, all thesethings happened.
And it's midnight, it's a full moon, it.

(37:57):
60 degrees or whatever.
Take down data on the environment,
because that's what's going to help usunderstand the root cause of some of these.
This phenomenon.
Maybe or maybe not.
And some of the most profound.
One of the most profound things that happened
to me, and forgive me if I already talked toyou about it on this, on the podcast,
was when I had a spirit box thrown at me.

(38:18):
That. That's not residual.
Like, this was a very conscious.
I don't say attack.
I think it was just, hey, I'm getting your
attention.
The spirit box said my name, and then it justwent off the shelf and right at my feet.
And I'm like, okay, do that again.
So some people would run out the door.
And I'm like, do that again.
And I noticed it was the moon.

(38:41):
It was.
It was on an equinox too.
It was on the first day of summer.
So there were all these other environmentalqualities happening during this investigation.
There was a thunderstorm.
So I'm thinking there's gotta be something tothat.
I'm just not smart enough to, like, do allthat kind of research.
But if I could inspire someone to go out thereand do that, do it.

(39:03):
Because the moon affects the tide flow.
70% of the earth is water.
70% of our bodies is water.
Perhaps not coincidentally, all of theseelements work together.
And at dusk and at dawn.
So, like, those kind of liminal times of day,
the electric frequency goes up,

(39:26):
it fluctuates, and it's most powerful at dawn.

Speaker A (39:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's really, really interesting.
Hold on one second.
And we're having spooky stuff here that's
really weird.
Do you want to come in and out again?Kj, for some reason, it's saying your upload
got complete.
So that's okay.

(39:53):
Okay, we're back.
All right, let's get you up to speed here.
We'll make sure everything's cool.
So. Yeah, I don't know why he was doing that.
It's kind of weird.

Speaker B (40:03):
My Internet.
My ****** Internet connection, or it's the
ghosts in my life getting excited.

Speaker A (40:10):
That's a combination of both.
Yeah.
I'm just going to wait till you get a littlebit up to speed here then,
because I caught what you last seen.
Then I have another question for you.
So. So we'll go from there.
All righty.
Okay, so Stone tape theory has to do a lot
with.
And correct me if I'm wrong, has a lot to dowith objects absorbing certain.

(40:33):
Whether you want to say, emotions or energies.
Whatever you want to say.
But here's the thing you were kind of talkingabout earlier.
Like, you know, you kind of grabbed a littletape and you went home, and then the TV you
know, was going a little crazy for you withthe volume.
But let me ask you this.
In the Civil War,
there were some common tools, like drums,

(40:57):
like, obviously rifles, swords,
things like that.
Do you think there's any of those that wouldbe more suspect to absorbing the energy?
Because, you know, like, would you thinksomeone's rifle, would you think someone's

(41:18):
uniform,
like,
maybe the drums?Because, you know, again, they had drummer
boys,
young men who'd be drumming into battle.
So,
you know, imagine that you're this young boy,like maybe 10 or 11 years old, and bullets are
whizzing by your head and.
And you're scared.

(41:40):
So I'm just curious, do you think there's any.
I guess my question is, do you think there's
anything over,
like, maybe a drum or a uniform that wouldabsorb more of that energy,
that you would get more communication from thespirit, per se?

Speaker B (41:54):
Yeah, I definitely think objects can hold a memory.
I mean, there's the phenomenon of placememory, which is very similar.
It's kind of in the same spectrum of stone,tape theory and residual hauntings.
I think.
I almost think that some of the objects thatI've seen that are supposedly haunted or that
I've experienced tend to not be the clothes.

(42:15):
It's.
It tends to be the bullets.
The.
The rifles, the bone saws, the bullets thatyou had to bite on as they were amputating
your leg.
You know, the stuff that got the full impact
of a person's emotion.
Think about it.
You're.
You're loading your gun because you want toshoot and kill somebody.

(42:37):
You're projecting that hatred that.
Just that emotion into that bullet.
There is a place in Gettysburg.
Actually, there's several, but one of the
buildings that I stayed at was called theFarnsworth House Inn in downtown Gettysburg.
It is still riddled with bullets.
There's cannonballs stuck in the side of it.
Their bar, they have an outside patio whereyou can have a drink.

(42:59):
The bar is from a tree that they cut down thatwas riddled with bullets,
and they reuse everything in Gettysburg.
They're like, this is from a witness tree.
So I'm sitting here having a cocktail on anold tree that's riddled with bullet holes, and
the bullets are still in there.
And I'm thinking again, when you're thinkingabout metal and objects that absorb and

(43:20):
amplify circuitry, of course they're going tobe haunted.
They're going to stay there.
So it's interesting to me to go to these
places and see what their haunted objects are.
Or, see, this building is haunted.
Well, yeah, it's full of metal and bronze and
all of these tools that we use that wemanufactured to harm someone or to.

(43:43):
I keep using the bone saw analogy because myboyfriend actually bought a bone saw in
Gettysburg.
Like an actual Gettysburg bone saw.
It's rusty.
And I'm just like, oh, my God.
I mean, I'm happy for him.
I'm like, you gotta let me know if anythinghappens while you own this object.
Because I really wish I saw it first.
But I think that.

(44:03):
Short answer, yes, I think that those thingscan.
Can absorb an energy or can maybe even be usedin the reverse to, like, trigger the response
from the paranormal.
A lot of people, they might fire a Civil War
gun in the battlefield to stir up activitybecause it's a familiar sound.
It's a familiar energy that's out there.

(44:27):
And just thinking of the world and all of theobjects that we use as just atomic in nature.
And nothing's inherently physical, Right?It's all just atoms and molecules and energy.
Why can't it bleed in from one time toanother?

Speaker A (44:41):
Yeah.
And you know, the other thing, too.
You were talking about the orphanage and
everything being sensitive of feeling theenergy of those poor children in there.
The only.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the onlydocumented civilian that was killed during the

(45:02):
Civil War.
We talking about that.
How that might really affect a person who.
And I can't remember if.
If the place where she was killed is open to
the public, but I believe it is.
I think you can stay in that place.
Particular room.
Is that right, or am I totally off?

Speaker B (45:22):
You cut out a little bit, but I think I got the gist of what you're saying.
And yes, the Jenny Wade house is available fortours.
You can't spend the night, but it's.
It's still open.
It's just this little, teeny, tiny house with
a gift shop attached to it.
And the bullet that was fired that struck
Jenny Wade was fired from the attic of theFarnsworth house where I stayed.

(45:44):
And so it.
You know,
she's just in the wrong place at the wrongtime.
It was the only civic.
She's baking bread.
She's pregnant.
She's baking bread for the soldiers.
And the bullet just came through and killedher.
And so you can take a tour of that place.
And they do say that it's haunted.
And there's things that you can experiencewhile you're there, to me, that are very
residual in nature.

(46:06):
They actually still have the board that hasher blood on it for when she fell on the floor
and bled out on the floor more.
They have it.
It's.
Look how excited I get.
Like, they have it on display.
You can't touch it, but it's behind glass.
And I was like, oh.
I was trying to get a picture of it, but I
couldn't.
And you can go in the basement.
It's Gettysburg.

(46:26):
Just loves their paranormal history.
They love their history, but they also embrace
that paranormal history.
So everybody in Gettysburg, they either
believe in the paranormal and they talk aboutit like I do.
Like, just like, guess what?And they geek out, or they believe in the
paranormal, but they don't want to talk aboutit.
Either way.

Speaker A (46:44):
Yeah.

Speaker B (46:45):
Everybody has seen something.

Speaker A (46:47):
Yeah. And that's the way Savannah, Georgia, is.
You. You talk to people in Savannah.
They're all like, yep, I've seen.
They treat it like we.
We see a cow in Wisconsin.
It's like,
yeah, I seen a ghost.
My uncle dead.
My cousin and my brother.
And, you know,
and because I was there, like I said, forbusiness, and I was taking a bunch of tours

(47:08):
and talking to people,
and it just.
It was hilarious.
It was just, like, I would joke with people.
So, like, down there, they have what they calla Sonic restaurant.
It's kind of like our Culver's here.
They're all over the place.
And I said, I bet you that Sonic across thestreet is haunted.
And without missing a beat, the hotel managerwas like, oh, yeah,

(47:31):
yeah.
It was built, I think, on something like aburial ground.
And I'm, like, looking at her, I'm like, isshe serious?
Right?It's just normal.
It's just like Gettysburg.

Speaker B (47:43):
There is.
There's several mass graves that are stillthere, and they're not marked.
I'm reluctant to say where they are because Ijust.
I know people that live there, and they'relike, yeah, that little lot over there has
about 100 Confederate soldiers buried 10ftunderground.
And it's, like, next to a KFC or something.
Like, it's just like, what?
And. But that's Gettysburg.

(48:03):
And you're like, well, no wonder this place is
haunted.
You've got death.
You've got unceremoniously buried people.
Like, it's just.
That's the way it is there.
And they do a really good job of, you know,keeping it historically accurate and authentic
and kind of capitalizing on the spooky stuffthis time of year.
But I always like to go, like, in April whenit's not spooky season.

(48:26):
I gotta tell you this, John. When I was Therein August, I went and I did a little evening
hike with a buddy of mine up to Little RoundTop, right at sunset, and then we left at
sunset.
So again, sunset, the energies are up.
The only people there, the.
The Parks Department, they are there watching.
They want to kick you out.
They're like, you got two minutes.
They're like, okay, we're leaving.

(48:48):
So we were walking and we get back to the car.
We're just driving out of the park, and it'ssunset, and the park is,
you know, it's.
It's far away from a highway or anything like
that, this area of the park.
And we're going around a bend and it's like a
little foggy and the lights are coming off.
And I kid you not, I see a pair of legswalking up the hill towards the car.

(49:09):
And I just got the.
Like, the hair on my neck stood up and I am
******** you.
Not like this was.
This was a Civil War soldier.
I saw this.
This was a flesh and blood Confederate soldier
with.
Complete with like, a beard that was right out
of the 1800s glasses.
Like, he was disheveled.
He was holding a rifle, and he's just walking
up the ******* street.

(49:29):
Pardon my French.
And my friend and I. I'm like, please tell meyou see that.
And he's like, well, that happens all the timearound here.
But I'm thinking, why is there a Confederatesoldier at dusk walking into the park in the
area where tens and thousands of them wereslaughtered?
He didn't look at us because we're looking inthe car.
We're like, make eye contact, my guy.

(49:50):
Nope.
He stayed in character and he walked.
And I am kicking myself, John, for not looking
in the rearview mirror, because what if hewasn't there?
He just kept on going into the dark.
I'm like, okay, that was weird.
And it very well could have been a personthat's just in their reenacting mode, but it

(50:13):
made no sense.
Sense for the middle of July to be walkinginto the park at night dressed like a soldier
when you know the DNR is up there and youcan't carry a rifle around Gettysburg.
Come on.
So, yeah, that scared the **** out of me.
I mean, I loved it.
I was so excited that I forgot to look in therearview mirror to see if he actually was
really there.

Speaker A (50:33):
I love it.

Speaker B (50:33):
Crazy, right?

Speaker A (50:34):
I love.
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker B (50:36):
You gotta go?

Speaker A (50:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
So let me ask you, maybe this has to do withwhat you were talking about, too,
the reenactors.
Do you think that does any because we talkedabout like, you know, it's humid out, it's
full moon, it's, you know, maybe that has.

(50:58):
Contributes to the spirits coming forward alittle stronger that, that time because of the
elements.
Do you think the reenactors do anything to
affect that?
Like, you know, when they're doing thebattles, do you think any of the spirits are
like, oh my God,
I gotta join them, there's a battle going on.

Speaker B (51:18):
Back to work.

Speaker A (51:20):
Yeah, back to work.
What do you think about that?

Speaker B (51:23):
I'd be curious to find that out.
The only time reenactors are in Gettysburg are
during the time that the battle happened, July1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Like you're not allowed to just do areenactment when you feel like it.
Like there's permits and stuff.
You can, you have to pay and you can get likecertain things.
Like I've seen people like camping in certainareas of the park, but it's very protected,
it's very regulated.

(51:43):
They're not shooting cannons or anything likethat.
But I would wonder if I'd be curious to findout if during that time that the three day
reenactment is occurring, if there's a spikein paranormal activity too.
I would be curious to see that because to methat would be indicative of you can help of
manifestation of a residual haunting.

(52:05):
Like maybe you can impact it in some way,
maybe by,
you know, I've heard ghost stories wherepeople can.
They play period music, they play like a musicbox or something, and an apparition could
appear.
You know, is it.
There's something with music in the paranormaltoo, which is a rabbit hole.
I'd love to explore another time andtriggering that response in the environment.

(52:27):
So I'd be curious to find that out.
I don't know.

Speaker A (52:30):
Yeah, see that's really interesting to me too.
What I would love to experiment on.
And one of my guests did this.
He was at a revolutionary fort,
Fort Henry.
So that was a very important fort in theRevolutionary War and everything.
And behind the fort there's a forest wherethere were some major battles.

(52:53):
And what he did was he brought some realisticmusket sounds and he played them on a
Bluetooth speaker.
And he said he could hear like not only peopletalking,
you know, disembodied voices talking, but alsohe, he could hear like musket return fire,

(53:15):
you know, so he would play the fire like the,like whatever,
his musket fire, and then hear that back.

Speaker B (53:23):
Was he in the recording or was he hearing it in the.

Speaker A (53:27):
So, yeah.
So when he would not Hear it when he was out
with his group that he was showing around,doing the tour,
people would hear like little voices and stufflike that.
And that kind of.
There was some sightings, but when he started
doing that, nobody really heard anything.
And then when he got back and played it to
review it when he was doing editing, clear asday,

(53:50):
could hear musket return fire and voices.

Speaker B (53:53):
That's an evp.
That's phenomenal.

Speaker A (53:56):
Yeah, so that's what I was thinking with the reenactors and also,
you know, maybe getting permission sometime togo in there and,
you know, whether you just.
Because you realistically,
you could get a nice Bluetooth speaker, put iton a table, go out there,
do some cannon fire, do some musket soundsand, you know, probably get something in

(54:23):
return.
But I'd be fascinating to hear that if, that,if people have done that and what has
happened.
So that's interesting to me.

Speaker B (54:30):
That is a really.
That's good.
I'll.
Let me.
I'm going to look into that.
I think that would be a cool and easy way to
investigate something just to try to get thoseEVPs.
I've never gotten an EVP and I really want to.
That I know of.

Speaker A (54:42):
So what point, kj, in your lecture of Stone tape theory, that has surprised you?
Is there anything through your research thatyou want?
Wow, that's really interesting.

Speaker B (54:55):
Truthfully, the thing about a weird science I learned about that kind of was the
impetus behind stone tape theory.
It kind of connected the.
On the screens being weird.
Okay, we're there.
Okay, good drum roll.
Was when I learned about something called the
DNA Phantom effect.
Have you ever heard of this?

Speaker A (55:14):
No, it's.

Speaker B (55:15):
Oh, my gosh.
I know we're.
We're running up to our hour, but the DNAPhantom effect was something that was
uncovered in the, I want to say like the late80s by a Russian physicist named Peter, Dr.
Peter Guerrerov.
And he was doing experiments with DNAmolecules in a lab and blowing them up with
like liquid nitrogen and microwaves.

(55:37):
And he was seeing what happened with.
When he just destroyed DNA.
And you can see DNA, you know, it's like avery fine hair.
Like, you can see a DNA molecule and they canexpand up to six feet.
They're just this weird little coiled,vibrating, energetic thing thing that we don't
really understand.
And what he found out when blowing thesethings up or putting them in a quartz

(55:58):
container and freezing them with liquidnitrogen is that the DNA, the physical part of
the DNA physical was destroyed, but anenergetic duplicate of the coil DNA Remained
an energetic duplicate.
And he said that it was like a. It spiraledalong like a disembodied spirit in the lab,

(56:18):
and then it just vanished.
Like, hold on, timeout.
What?
Like, I had to reread that several times.
So to me, that says we're made out of light.
We're made out of an energetic duplicate atour core that sticks around for a little bit
and then it vanishes.
DNA, phantom effect.
Look it up.
It's insane.

(56:38):
And this is from like 40 years ago.
So what are they determined?
What are they researching now?
Like, why are we studying this?And so to me, that kind of solidified my
belief in that science,
that hauntings can be residual.
I mean, if our very DNA dissipates after some
time, but it sticks around in the environmentas an energetic duplicate, what are the

(57:01):
implications of that?
Not just when we're alive, but when we'redeceased, you know, so that blew my mind.

Speaker A (57:08):
You know what else has blown my mind?
I don't know if you've heard about this.
There was experiments done in the 1800s,
early 1900s, about how much a person's soulweighs.
And so they, they basically this gentleman,you know, it was a very pseudo science.
If you.
Whatever he figured out it was roughly 21

(57:30):
grams.
Because he would have, you know,
I don't know how they did this, but a freshcorpse, like someone who nearly died, and then
they would weigh them and then basically weigha little bit and then weigh them again.
And he kept getting the same number, 21 grams.
21 grams.
So they, they kind of summarized,

(57:51):
oh, that's the human soul leaving the body.
Again.
It's pseudoscience.
It's weird science that it weighs 21 grams.
Have you heard of theories about that?And what do you think about.

Speaker B (58:03):
Yeah, I had read about that too.
I read it about.
I was trying to think of the name of the bookthat I read.
I was reading a book on near deathexperiences.
I think it was by Dr. Raymond Moody.

Speaker A (58:14):
Yes.

Speaker B (58:15):
Yeah. Where he, he chronicles thousands and thousands of stories of people
who have these NDEs.
And they all have a lot of similarities.
And to me, that's just so compelling is thatthe data supports that.
A lot of people have had this happen.
Like, why can't we take this seriously?
But I have heard about the soul having aweight to it, which is.
It's interesting to me.

(58:36):
And I. I don't know what to make of that.
But it's.
If it's something that can be scientifically,
it's valid.
It's Reliable, like it's not just one person
weighed that much.
You know, it's been consistently shown that we
need to look at this with a differentperspective and not be afraid of it and be
intrigued by it and say,
why?Why does that happen?

(58:56):
What does that mean?And not just say, oh, that happens.
And then what?
Right, Tell me more.

Speaker A (59:04):
Yeah, and that just, it just blows me away.
Like stone tape theory and, and then,
you know, you talking about science and soulsand everything, it's just there's so much
involved with the paranormal that is sointeresting and fascinating.
It's just not about scary ghosts and spookywhatever.

(59:25):
It's science and some interesting scienceassociated with that.
So that's.
That's amazing.

Speaker B (59:30):
I love it.
Science.
That's what John Mack said.
The late Dr. John Mack.
He said there's a lot of weird science thatturns out to be not so weird once it's proven.
And that's what I think stone tape theory is.
I think it's a science.
We just haven't figured it out yet.

Speaker A (59:43):
Yes. And hopefully someday we can put some more effort to try to figure it out
and, you know, get some.
Well, we'll never get closure on it, but at
least we'll get some idea of whether it's trueor not and how we can use the science in the
future to not only help people,
but also to again learn more about ourselvesand kind of what, what is out there and, you

(01:00:07):
know, it's just.
Just blows me away.
Just completely fascinating.
So, kj, thank you so much again.
I can always talk to you for hours.
This is was awesome as always.
If you could tell my spooky friends againwhere they can find you,
you know, if you're in the Madison area ornear areas to, you know, sign up for a ghost

(01:00:32):
walk in Madison.
Ghost walks?
Where can they do that?

Speaker B (01:00:34):
Yeah, I'm in Madison.
You can find us at madcityghostwalks.com
pretty easy to remember.
We're the mad, mad spooky city.
And you can find me on Instagram.
I'm on.
I'm on Instagram.
I'm K J E E83CHI83 on Instagram.
So I post just life stuff, spooky stuff, allsorts of stuff, art stuff,

(01:00:57):
ghost walk stuff.
So follow along for some spooky fun and hope
to see you on a ghost tour or cemetery tourthis season.

Speaker A (01:01:05):
Yes, absolutely.
I would look forward to that.
You just let me know and hopefully we can workthat all out.
And yes,
one thing I always say is please support KJand Mad City Ghost Walks, because I know
there's bigger tours and everything like thatand blah, blah, blah.
But it's important to understand a person likeKJ is putting her time and effort and love and

(01:01:28):
passion behind this.
That's very rare these days.
So please take the opportunity to enjoy thatand really soak that in because you're going
to come, like we said earlier, you're going tocome with questions, you're going to come with
experiences.
You're going to come with someone who is,again, I can't say strong enough.

(01:01:49):
It's worth your time.
It's worth that couple hours out of your day
to say, like, wow, I learned something new,or, you know, I had a really weird experience,
or KJ just was a blast and I just reallyenjoyed the tour.
And that's great too.
You know, whatever you get out of it is so
important, especially in the spooky season.
You can enjoy something different and trysomething new.

(01:02:11):
You know, that's the other thing I tellpeople.
Try something new.
Even if you're skeptic, like KJ said, go
along.
You know, and, you know,
if you think she's,
you know, full of it,
you can like, grill her and be like, ah,you're just making this up.
You're just making spooky sounds.
You're just.
Whatever.
I'm sure KJ would have answers to that.

Speaker B (01:02:36):
No, I welcome everybody.
It's an accessible tour to everybody, so
please come.
You're going to have a good time, whether you
like it or not.

Speaker A (01:02:44):
Yeah, exactly.
The best thing you're going to go away is go.
HKJ is a really cool person.
I really, I really enjoyed this.
So again,
please do that.
And then all the links will be in this
episode.
And you know, I do my best, like I said, toget out there.
And like I said, it just.
It's such a nice time.
You go have a great time.

(01:03:05):
You have a great experience.
Please do that.
And, like, reach out to KJ on our socials if
you have some questions or you just, just wantto talk to her about life or whatever.
I'm sure KJ would love to hear that too.

Speaker B (01:03:17):
I would love that.
Thank you for having me.
John is always a pleasure, Always the.

Speaker A (01:03:21):
Best, always a pleasure.
It's so amazing.
Like I said, talk to you and of course, stayspooky.