Amber's geeky joy this month is the creativity of insurance commercials, and Will’s joy is visiting the American Players Theater for Shakespeare productions. July is BIPOC Mental Health Awareness month, so the cohosts discuss bias and its effects on mental health. We talk about various ways that bias can cause mental health issues, whether that bias comes from outside influences or from within oneself. We also discuss coping mechanisms to help mitigate the impacts of stereotyping and bias on mental health, one of which is Amber's acronym SAFETY, which stands for Soul care, Asking for help, Finding community, Engaging in social activism, Tending to your whole self, and Yanking the plug. We also cover some of the obstacles and intolerance people have against mental health therapy. During story time, Will shares a story about a time he unintentionally expressed bias and was called out for it but worked to understand why what he did was not great, and a story about someone expressing prejudicial preconceived notions against his father for displaying American flags in office, and how his father came to understand that person’s differing perspective. These stories lead to a nice deliberation about how people can see the same event or symbol (e.g., the American flag) in very different ways and how to be intentional in the values we put on display (such as pairing an national flag with other, values-based flags). The audience question is about how to respectfully make presentations, or how to lead discussions, about identities that are not your own. This episode’s bias habit-breaking skill is to Retrain Reactions with the mnemonic Detect/Reflect/Reject. And we close with Amber’s joyful recommendation of the long-running, goofy, time-twisty television series, "Doctor Who", with a special shout out to Jinkx Monsoon!
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So, I knowthis is going to sound really silly:
But one of my favorite -
I always like to do, like,
(01:04):
what am I trying to say?
… Icebreakers!You know, when I'm in groups.
And one of my favorite ones is actually,
shared with me by,
my partner in my nonprofit, Bryce Cofield,
which is, “what is somethingthat you like to geek out on?”
And currently my geek outis insurance commercials.
(01:26):
(Will laughing) What?
Which I know sounds ridiculous and silly,but hear me out.
I love them because I thinkthat they have to be -
they have to be so incredibly creativebecause the idea of insurance
is so boring.
No offense to anyone out therewho’s in the insurance field.
No offense to insurance salespeople, or those that are in insurance.
(01:49):
But I think that the idea of insuranceis pretty like less, interesting.
So the commercials have to be, you know,
next levelin order to get people to be interested.
But, I mean, think about it.
You've got like Flo from Progressive.
I feel like you have some Flofrom Progressive energy.
I totally have Flo from Progressive energy,for sure.
(02:10):
But there's like Flo from Progressive;there's Dr. Rick from Progressive,
the “don't become your parents.”
There's the GEICO gecko,the GEICO cavemen,
there's Jake from State Farm.
There's, well, like “like a good neighbor,State Farm is there”,
like, there's so many.- I like Jake from State Farm.
- I love Jake from State Farm. He’s so cute.- He’s a cutie.
Producer Eric (02:33):
I just had a Facebook memory
come up today about the time that
I was like, “why is that guy on the phonewith Jake from State Farm
at 3 in the morningfor no real reason?”
(Both laughing)
I love it, it's so true.
They're just, they're just so good.
You got the Allstate Mayhem guy.
You've got …
I think we talked off the camera withsomeone about the Salt-N-Pepa, that
(02:56):
“Ah, push it.”- Oh, yeah - insurance commercials,
just selling you.
There's Liberty Mutual, the Liber-
Limu emu and Doug.
There's just, there's so many of them,and so …
It's a new genre of mediayou like to watch!
100%!
So next time you're watching an insurancecommercial, just …
(03:17):
- Think of you.- Think of me and appreciate
I mean, even, like,the General is, you know, insurance.
And they used to be super, super cheesywith, like, a little cartoon General.
But now they're really good.
They kind of like --- Don't they still have the cartoon General?
They still do.
But mostly Shaq is the -Shaquille O’Neal is
the main, is the main one for for those.- Oh, those ones!
(03:40):
And he and like they kind ofjust play on the fact
that like they used to be really cheesy
and that people thoughtthat they were like a fake thing.
And so anyway, they are just so much fun.
And every time I see a new creativeinsurance commercial,
I just - it just fills my heart with joy.
Our insurance, Eric Roman’s
(04:03):
and mine for our house and our cars is USAA.
- All right.- I don’t -- they don't really do commercials.
I was going to say,I don't know if I know any USAA.
I just feel like I need to shout them outsince you named every other brand.
Oh, well, there's even, like,“Nationwide is on your side.”
So I mean,and there's just anyway, there's so many.
Do you have a playlist of their jingles?
(04:24):
- All the jingles! - You play to help yourself
go to sleep?
To help myself go to sleep.Calm myself down
at the end of the day, yeah.
I like the ones with thethe Flo, Flo person.
Yeah.Flo from Progressive.
And like, there was onewhere it was like her and her family.
But she played all the characters.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.- I remember that one being funny.
She's got the ones with her sister now. Yeah.
And there's -Oh, and I forget his name.
(04:45):
But now there kind of there'sanother person from Progressive
that they're startingto like kind of inch in as a star.
I forgot his name,
but I think Jesse, Jesse -Jesse from Progressive.
So it’s not working if you -well, I guess you just remembered.
Yeah.
Jesse from Progressiveand he's just kind of quirky and and fun.
Anyway, insurance commercials,if anybody you know, I'm just telling you,
(05:11):
take a moment to appreciate what,
what artistrywe have in these insurance commercials.
Yeah, yeah. How about you, Will?
So, one thing that my friends and
I and Eric Roman dopretty much every summer
is go and see a play at a placecalled the American Players Theater,
(05:31):
in Spring Green, Wisconsin.
This is a really, really nice,
and pretty well known theater company.
The actors, they get, like, are fromBroadway, are from television.
So in the play that we saw last year,a couple of the actors were from
shows on HBO. - Wow.
(05:51):
And and so you get these really, like,top, top tier actors
who come to thistheater in, like, Wisconsin,
to hone their craftand work with these other great actors.
So they do lots of, they do Shakespeare plays, Tennessee Williams,
all the kind of bigkind of classic, theater stuff.
And, so we saw last year,we saw “Much Ado About Nothing”,
(06:14):
which is my favorite Shakespeare play.
It's just so funny and goofy and silly.
One of my favorite quotes from it,my friend Jack and I,
we kind ofsay it to each other all the time.
So the there's two charactersthat end up in love
and they end up marriedin together. But, they're,
they start off hating each other
and they kind of hated each othertheir whole lives.
(06:35):
And so when the gentleman comes upand is greeting his nemesis,
he calls her Lady Disdain,
to express, his disdain for her.
And he says his way of saying“hello” is,
“Lady Disdain, are you yet living?”
- Ooh.- As in, “you're still alive?”
“You’re still alive?
You’re still around?”
And so Jack and I saythat to each other sometimes, we’re like
(06:59):
“Lady Disdain, are you yet living?”
I love that, I love that.
But yeah, this theater company, it'sjust it's always a good time.
They're kind of out in nature, so.
So they have two theaters,
one that's indoors for when,you know, inclement weather or whatever.
You can still be inside
or air conditioned,but their, their main theater is outdoors.
(07:20):
And we were at one playand it started raining,
but they kept going and that, you know,just gave it an interesting, fun, dynamic.
Professional,consummate professionals here.
Yeah. And they so it's,you know, theater in the round, like
in Shakespeare's timewith open air and all that.
And they dojust a really good job of everything.
They, you know, sometimes take Shakespeareplays and set them in the 1920s.
(07:44):
And, they also are really goodabout representation.
There's always great racial diversity,and they find little interesting ways
to bring in sexual orientation kinds of diversity,like switching the gender of a character
where it's not going to mess up all the the lines too much.- Yeah yeah yeah, do so gender swap.
And, and they do it kind of -
So in an episode, a long while ago,we mentioned
(08:07):
from the 90s, the Brandy Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella,
where it was like the Princehe was played by a Filipino actor.
His mom was Whoopi Goldberg.
His dad was a White guy.
So, like, thekind of racial genetics just
weren't a factor in this fictional mixed race world.- Weren’t a factor, yeah!
And this theater does that a lot, too.- I love that.
So when we saw “Much Ado”,it was an Asian female lead
(08:32):
and her uncle was Blackand another uncle was White.
And like,just kind of race doesn't matter.
Yeah.
And you would think thatwould be hard sometimes,
because in those kindsof comedies of errors,
you have to track, like who's a sister
and who's a cousin, who's the motherand father, but actually it's pretty easy.
Yeah.
Well, also, like I think sometimespeople overemphasize it in the time
(08:52):
period, like period pieces and,you know, like “Much Ado About Nothing”
or like Shakespeare feels very much like,“oh, we have to stick to like …
White folks.
… historical accuracy”and like and people that, you know, like
“if you're going to have money or anything,then it had to be White people”, right?
So yeah, I love thatthere's that, that mix and giving folks -
(09:13):
it not being about thatjust about the story itself.
Yeah.- Yeah.
And like “Bridgerton” iskind of another example.
Yup. 100%.
Or, kind of that - not exactly the samebecause they keep kind of,
family racial stuff, making “genetic sense.”- Yes.
But still kind of finding waysto bring that diversity.
It keeps it fresh, too.
(09:33):
Yeah, yeah.
And our producer is telling us that,
the late Wall StreetJournal drama critic,
and I'm not sure if I know howto pronounce his name,
- Terry Teachout.
Teachout. Yup.
Called it the “finest classical theaterfestival in the United States.”
So, that's - it sounds like, APT is a pretty- Wow.
(09:55):
distinguished opportunity for you.
Yeah, it's it's just always good time.
Always amazing.
So, yeah, we'll try to…- That’s awesome.
We'll try to, schedule maybe when,
you come for another episode,we can figure out a way
where we can also do that.- That would be amazing.
Your trips are always busyfor us recording this.
It’s true.
Well, we'll try to squeeze more in.
(10:15):
Squeeze more in. Yes, I love it,I love it.
All right, so,
this month is BIPOC Mental Health Month.
So this is July, which is BIPOCMental Health Awareness month.
And so we're going to bring that into whatwe're talking about in today's episode.
So we're going to be lookingat kind of biases and prejudice
and their kind of effectson mental health.
(10:37):
So because we'retalking about mental health,
we just want everyone to be awarekind of a content notice
that we're going to be talking about
things that will sometimesinclude things like self-harm and suicide.
Just in casethat's sensitive topic for any of you.
Just know that that will come in and outof our conversation this episode.
Yes. And when I, you know, before we get started,I was just going to share some of the
(11:01):
just a few stats and then kind of gointo some of the conversation.
Yeah. Please.
So just as a kind of framing, right?
So Black and Latinx,folks have higher rates of,
persistent symptoms of emotional distress
and are - have less access and resources,
(11:23):
to actually receive mental health care.
So 33 to 36%actually receive the care that they need
as compared to 60% of their non-HispanicWhite counterparts.
Wow.
For Asian Americans, we see that theyhave lower rates of mental health utilization
and are actually three times
(11:43):
less likely to seek services.
And then we also are seeing, highhigh rates of - highest --
some of the highest ratesof suicidality and
psychological distress in Native Americanand Alaskan Native populations.
And one of the things around,suicidal ideation and suicide is
(12:05):
and historically has been predominantlythose from dominant culture
so White folks, but we've seen in the lastfive years a dramatic increase
in suicide attemptsand rates in Black youth specifically.
So they actually have the highest rates
of suicide attemptsthan, than any other demographic.
(12:26):
And so when we're talking aboutBIPOC mental health
awareness, these are some of the thingsthat we're talking about, like this rise
and managing psychological distress.
And, emotionality. As well as -
and you know, which then can resultin suicidology,
(12:49):
and also the
lack of access to mental healthsupport as well.
Yeah. Yeah.
And, not just with people of color,but we know,
women have higher rates of depressionand mental health issues than men,
LGBT folks compared to straight folks,
and on and on and on,
(13:10):
just in general,if you're a member of a stigmatized group,
the stats say that you're going to bemore likely to face some of these things.
And, this was actually,
a big chapter in my research career.
So, so I want to tell you a little bitabout kind of,
this, big theoretical model and paperthat I published.
(13:32):
And so,you know, when you're in graduate school,
you take a lot of coursesthat are in your kind of core topic area.
So for me, that social psychology,bias, all that kind of stuff.
But you also take classes in other areas.
And so I was taking a clinical psychologyclass really just to check a box
because I needed to get a certain numberof classes in areas outside my own.
(13:55):
But it was an amazingclass by, a professor named
Lyn Abramson, who's a fairlyfamous depression researcher.
And in that class, the final paper,
we were allowed to write about basicallywhatever we wanted
topic related to depression.
And throughout this class, as we learnedkind of cognitive models of depression -
(14:16):
so there are different typesof depression,
different kind of - some people,there's a chemical imbalance that doesn't
have the same kindof cognitive causes to the depression.
But for some people they have
have more kind of cognitive depression,which is things like they've learned to
have negative thoughts about themselves,like, “I'm stupid, I'm fat, I'm ugly.”
And that kind of drivestheir major depression.
And as we were learning about this,I was like,
(14:38):
“okay, so they learn thesekind of cognitive patterns,
these cognitive patterns,they get automatically activated,
they bias your attentional processes,they have emotional consequences
and so on.
Really,these are the same things that I study
as a stereotyping and prejudice researcher.”- Right.
So stereotypes - there are these automatically activatedcognitive patterns.
They bias attention processing.
(14:59):
They have emotional consequences.
And so this kind of unintentional biasthat we talk about all the time on this
podcast, I said in mymy final paper for this class, I was like,
“really, kind of these processesin depression
and these processes in prejudice or bias
are essentially the same in termsof what they are kind of in, in the brain.
And how they operate.”
And so because of that, we could use
(15:23):
techniques from,
clinical psychology,like cognitive behavioral therapy
and apply it in the contextof reducing bias and prejudice.
- Yup.- And vice versa.
And so this was my, I was like,
you know, “gotta get this paper donefor class and I have other classes.”
I was a busy grad student.
But the professor, Lyn Abramson,who's also my dear friend now,
(15:45):
really respondedto that idea and thought it was great.
And like, you know,
as you know, you grade papersor you have been in positions
where you have to grade papers,
you got to get through everyone's paper,give them some nice comments.
She wrote like apage and a half
of comments abouthow excited she was about this idea
and that we should pursue itas an actual project.
And so we did, so for a few years
(16:06):
me, Lyn Abramson,also my PhD advisor, Trish Devine,
and also we brought in a famousCBT researcher, Steve Holland,
and built this kind of theoretical modelwhere we brought in all this stuff
from the prejudice literature and allthis stuff from the depression literature
and kind of an integrated model.
And where that
comes into, what today's topicis all this, this research
(16:31):
on how members of stigmatized groups,they have higher rates of depression.
It's similar to peoplewho aren't a member of a stigmatized group
and have this depression.
So if you have these negative thoughtsabout yourself,
it results in kind of these cognitive depressions.
But for members of stigmatized groups,others are having the negative thoughts
about you.They're expressing negativity towards you.
You're hearing it from the media.
(16:52):
So it might not, in all cases,be driven by negative thoughts
you have about yourself, but
by negative thingsyou hear about your group all the time.
- Right.
And so we were able to really unpack this,and it ended up
having a lot of interestingtheoretical implications.
If any of you are really interested
in the scientific details or mental healthstuff, check out my paper.
I'm very proud of it.
(17:12):
It really formed the foundationfor all of my work.
We'll have a link to it, in the episodedescription
Cox et al 2012, published in“Perspectives on Psychological Science”.
But it really - this link
basically prejudice, bias, oppression,these things that we talk about
all the time on the podcast,
they cause depression, anxietyand other mental health issues.
(17:36):
Not through any fault or --
Well, and also,
I'm not saying that for other people,mental health is their fault.
But not through anycognitive things that are
necessarily presentin members of the stigmatized groups.
But just by the nature of them facingprejudice out in the world.
- Right.- I don’t know if you have stuff on that?
(17:56):
I have -- I can go on forever.
Well, you know,and I think I've mentioned this
a few times alreadythis season in particular,
but that's, you know,that racial battle fatigue, right?
That's the cumulative effectsof these small
and large daily interactionsthat kind of dig at you,
(18:18):
that then impact our stresslevels, that then impact
our psychological well-beingas well as our social well-being.
Right?
And kind of bio psycho social perspectiveon how our well-being overall.
And so those kind of dailycumulative impacts of
(18:38):
negative perceptions on ourselvesis what then leads to a lot of those.
The negative mental health,
impacts.
- Yeah.
So, another thing with this is, you know,as we talk about kind of every episode
or have talked about many times,everyone learns biases, right?
Yeah.
(18:59):
And sometimes we learn biasesabout a group we're not a part of,
but later could become a part of.
So, for instance, little kids,we know
they learn predominant stereotypesabout different social groups.
But if they end up being LGBT,for instance - so little kids have
stereotypes, have biases, have prejudicesabout the LGBT+ community,
(19:20):
but we don't really figure that outuntil puberty or a little before puberty.
- Right.
And so if you think you have this kind of
prejudice or bias going outwards towardswhat would be an outgroup,
you know, “I'm a little kid, I probably mayor may not think of myself as straight,
but the kind of defaultis that I'm going to be straight.”
And then one day I realize, “oh, I'm gay.”
So if I think gay men are,
(19:41):
flamboyant, they're fairies,they're feminine, they're silly,
whatever negative, or juststereotypical things, I think.
Then all of a suddenI'm part of that group.
And so that gets kind of directed inwards.
Same thing goes for a disability.
I think in one of our disability episodes,
we already mentioned this,you know, most or what --
there's some statistic which I'mforgetting that like one fourth of us.
(20:04):
- Most people will become disabledat some point in their lives.
Most people will have some kind of disability.
And that relates to age as well.
So, you know, those of us who are luckyenough to survive to an older age.
Well, if you havebiases against old people.
- Right.
Ultimately that's going to be you.
And so the bias becomes this negativecognitive pattern against yourself,
which can lead to depression.
(20:24):
And in fact,there's a lot of good research on this.
There's one particular studyI'm thinking of.
They measured kind of implicitor automatic anti-age bias,
when people are a bit younger,the people who had more,
negative associations, more negativitytowards old people when they got older,
they actually hadmuch worse health outcomes.
Across a variety of measures,not just depression
(20:45):
but also physical health outcomes.
Mmm interesting.
And so,
these are other reasons to workon our biases, both in terms of
“hey, some of these biases that you could becomea member of that group,
work on them so that you don't havesome of these negative effects,”
but also, helping people think like,as we go throughout the world
(21:06):
and maybe express biases,very often unintentionally,
it has negative effectsfor other people's mental health as well.
Absolutely. I think it's a really good pointto, you know, I don't think
I've ever necessarily explicitlythought about it in that way, right?
That these internalized negative thoughtsthat maybe we have about
a particular group,especially one that you can become a part
(21:29):
of at any pointin your in your life.
Yeah.
How that impacts you onceyou do become part of that community.
And I would imaginethat not only does that impact
just your kind of general mental health,but I would imagine if compared to others
that it probably impactsyou even more then them.
- You know, because because Black folks,you know, they learn
(21:52):
some coping skills to deal with racismthroughout their whole lives,
hopefully their parents maybe prepare them.
But then if you have essentially just beena member of the powerful group,
and if you're a, White personand a man and all that and
you don't have any reasonto learn some of those things
(22:12):
and then becoming a memberof a stigmatized group.
- Right.- It's it's all of a sudden
you're facing all this stuff that you'vemaybe never wrestled with before.
Right. Absolutely.
And also, these kind of in-group biasescan be perpetuated within the group.
So the LGBT community, this happens a lotlike ideas of what gay men
are quote “supposed to be like,” we're,you know, supposed to be fashionable
(22:34):
and into shopping and liking,you know, divas and drag queens and so on.
Some of those become culturalthings that as outsiders,
because everyone who is LGBT,at one point didn't realize it.
- Right.
We learn these biasesand assumptions about the group,
and then we're in the groupand it starts to becoming
those “shoulds”; like Sandy was saying,“don't should all over yourself,”
like, “oh, I need to be fashionablebecause I'm gay, need to be into theater
(22:58):
because I'm gay.”- Right.
And those things are especially strongbecause of this kind of transition
into the stigmatized groupthat some groups face.
It's interesting.
And I'm reminded ofand I think we talked about it last
season as well.
But, I think it was inthe documentary called “Do I Sound Gay?”
I think that’s what it’s called. - Yup, you talked about that during the Gaydar episode.
(23:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But even that, right?
Like “what I'm supposedto sound like.” Right?
Like the whole, the wholedocumentary’s about how
this man's voice kind of shiftedand there wasn't…
And he did it on purpose. -He did it,
yeah.
Like, I don't think it was consciousor totally purposeful at some point.
But as he started sitting with itwith his therapist and figuring out, like,
(23:43):
“oh, yeah,I think I did purposefully change that,
my voiceso that I kind of signaled to others
that I was gay and that, you know,that there was a need for me to do that.”
Right?
So that anyway, it just reminds me.
So it was - oh yeah, our May 2024,episode number 12
is when we talked about that.
(24:06):
But yeah, that's what it
just reminds me of that.
Like the these things that wesometimes even do intentionally
or even unintentionally to … to shift.
- Yeah.- When we do become part of that group.
- Yeah.- Absolutely.
And another thingthis and this applies across
various groupsincluding getting us back to BIPOC folks.
(24:28):
There's this concept calledattribution ambiguity.
And so, when we thinkabout different types of bias,
you know, on this podcast we emphasizea lot unintentional kinds of bias.
But also we can think about more,more overt, like actual hateful, racist
people, the KKK and so on.
And they actually have - the research saysthat there are actually different impacts
(24:51):
on mental health and not necessarilythe way the listeners might imagine.
Mmm.
So what the research shows iswhen someone is overtly hateful
you know, it has an impact, of course.
But by and large, people can dismiss it
because it's like,“ that person is just a jerk.”
“That person is a horrible, hateful person.”
And so it doesn't really reflectanything on me if I'm the
(25:13):
target of the bias or if it's a it's racist thingon the person of color.
It it's not to sayit doesn't have any impact, but
they're overall able to kind of reject itas that person was a jerk.
- Right.
However, when it's more implicitkinds of biases
or unintentional kinds of biases,very often it's ambiguous.
- Right.
And this is the term“attributional ambiguity.”
(25:35):
So, a more unintentional kind of bias,it leaves people kind of questioning like,
“wait, what did they mean that to sound racist?”or “wait, am I being too sensitive?”
“Maybe it wasn't that.”- Yeah.
And then they end upkind of ruminating on it more
and worrying like,“oh gosh, am I being judgmental
towards that person when reallythey didn't say anything wrong?”
It's ambiguous. The attribution,how they can attribute the
(25:57):
the incidents to whether it's racismor not, racism or what is ambiguous,
that ends up having a much bigger effecton Black folks’ mental health.
Other people of color’s mental health,LGBT folks.
This ambiguity and that - the ambiguity
is more oftenfrom these kinds of unintentional biases.
For sure.
And and wetouched on that a little bit.
(26:18):
I think it was in the BlackHistory Month episode with Bernie.
But yeah,
you know, and I mentioned thatespecially when I'm recruiting folks
or bringing. or talkingto kind of transplants, BIPOC
transplants in Oregonin particular that we come across that
a lot, both in just like everyday lifeas well as in our workplaces.
(26:41):
But there's this kind of,
it's much more covert, I think that
and we come across it a lot,particularly outside of Portland
and in Oregon, that there's this kind of,
you would think there's
kind of lip service to
(27:02):
diversity and wanting to be welcomingand all of these things.
And then all of a sudden there'sthese undercutting comments or things
that then make us question, like you said,
“that, that … something about thatdidn't feel right”
Yeah.
“And that feels it feels racist,or feels like
(27:23):
this is because I'm Black and,but I don't know what to do with that.”
You know, like, maybe maybe it's not.
Maybe it's not really a race thing.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive,but maybe this is just my perception
and then when you're also in spaceswhere you don't have other people
that look like youto kind of, again, ground yourself in
maybe some sense of reality of like,yeah, no, that, that was that.
(27:47):
Then you're constantly questioningand then it
and then it makes you feel likeyou can't trust your own self.
Right.
And that you don't know yourselfwell enough or that you can't trust
your emotional reactionsand, and, and sense of things.
Right? And whether it's intentionalgaslighting or not.
But there's just that like, “oh, no, that'snot that wasn't because of, you know, you.”
(28:10):
Yeah. And it's the ambiguity.
- Right.- Right?
We're not -we don't like ambiguity as a species.
We want to figure outit was this or it was that.
Yeah.
And I think also just to add into that,that it's not that much of an add in,
but that we'll probably talk about moreabout that with pet to threat as well,
because I think that that's
some of those kinds of things come upwhen we talk about that
(28:31):
in a future episode, next episode
I think actually.- Yeah, next episode,
we were planning to talk about that.
Absolutely.
And so with this
attribution ambiguity, there's somethingI really want to emphasize.
And this is kind of my last major pointunder this topic, because then I really
we really want to get to the“how do we heal from this?”
What are some of thosetechniques and tools.
But this attribution ambiguity thing,
(28:54):
I really want to emphasize it bothfor people who are the targets of bias.
And I want you to think about that.
And the people who might be expressing bias.- Right.
Because we talk a lotabout how when you say something,
you kind of (freeze), you don't mean it.
Sometimes you freeze upand you don't acknowledge it.
- Right.
Because if you remove that ambiguityfor others, if I say something
that's unintentionally racially biasedtowards you, let's say.
(29:16):
Right.
And I catch myself, I'm like,“oh my God, I can't believe I said that.”
I apologize.- Right.
It removes the ambiguity because I'm doingthe work of recognizing this was a bias.
It's not what I meant.
It's not what I feel or believe about you.
And so it won't have that same impactbecause you wouldn't have been left
with the ambiguity.- Right.
“Oh!”- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like exactly.
(29:36):
So, so I really want
all of our viewers to think about that
in terms of them as being potentialsources of bias towards
whatever potential group,but then also for members of those groups,
if you recognize how this ambiguitycould negatively affect you.
Right.
You can - maybe we can workon some techniques for
just kind of letting it goor coping with it.
(30:00):
And I'm looking to Amber for this.
I want I saw to understand this ambiguitycan really have mental health impacts,
and we want to try to move away from thator to be better at coping with it.
Yeah, yeah. I think it's an interesting
thought there about like how do we --
when there is that ambiguity,what do we do with it?
(30:21):
And I do think that on one hand it's
you know, going back towhat is the intention here,
like questioning intention.
The intention of the personwho maybe expressed bias.
Of the person from maybeexpressed something.
And what does it mean for me to eitherask the question
like, “oh, you know, when you said that,”like we talked about the ouch, right?
(30:43):
Or the oops. - Yeah.
And calling that out directly,
and or stepping back and,and finding those spaces
where you can get,you know, your community
support about like, am I like,let me just hear somebody else.
What was your perspective on this?
Because sometimes we can,you know, overemphasize something.
(31:03):
And somebody withinmy community can be like, “girl,
this is what this
from when I hear, thisis what I see or hear.”
And that's important too, right?
Like kind of that reality testingand some of those things.
And that says it's not just youbecause that's part of that.
“Am I being sensitive?Am I being …” And someone else being
I'd see it the same way!”- Right.
(31:25):
Is like, “okay, this is not just mebeing subjective.”
Right. Or “no, girl,you are being sensitive.”
Like this is, “I would feel this”, right?- Right.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah.- Yeah.
So when we think about
way in which to support mental health,particularly for BIPOC folks,
(31:46):
so I've alluded to this a couple of times,
that I wrote
well, I think it waspublished as an interview,
because I wrote too much so they couldn'tpublish it as a paper.
But, an interview called “CatchingOne’s Breath in the Age of I Can't Breathe.”
And, I came up with anacronym because
(32:08):
you know, I love a goodI love good acronym,
which is why I wanted us to make surethat we talked about MATE specifically.
Motivation, Awareness, Tools, Effort.
Effort over time.
Which we can use in this context- Absolutely.
with what we’re talking about. We’re motivatedand aware of the impact on mental health.
And let's get some tools.- Yup.
Which is what we're doing now.
So what’s your…?- So the tools:
(32:29):
So the acronym that I use is SAFETY.
So I think about creatinglike when we're talking about
mental health or suicidal ideationand things like that, or anytime
that somebody is like not doing well,we talk about creating a SAFETY plan.
And so when I think about safety,specifically when it comes to
(32:49):
BIPOC mental health, it stands for Sstands for soul care or self care.
And I know in our past episodelast season,
I think it was like the last episode,we talked about wellness overall,
Second to last episode.
Second to last, it was thepenultimate episode.
And I have this,
affinity towards using the term soul carerather than self-care,
(33:12):
because I think that self-caretends to be
so focused on
detaching from others.
And that's not always what we needto kind of tend to our, to our soul.
And I've actually moved towardseven another iteration of that
which is soul attunementrather than soul care.
And the reason I move towardsthat language is because
(33:35):
out of a conversation with
a friend of mine, andI might have mentioned her before as well,
Dr. Alette Coble-Temple, who has CP,and she was talking about like,
“oh, that same the same reactionyou have to ‘self’,
I have to ‘care’,because when I hear the word care,
I think immediately of caretakersor being taken care of.”
(33:57):
And that's not what we're,
we're trying to elucidate here.
So this idea of soul attunement,like we're attuning to our soul and it's…
- Nourishing it.- … nourishment,
exactly, exactly.
So really thinking about what do I need?
How do I tend to my mind and my bodyand my soul care needs
(34:21):
attunement, nourishing needs.
So that includes, like, our sleepand our eating and,
you know, all of the things that we needto kind of nourish ourself.
Also A stands for asking for help.
So, don't feel like you need to do itall on your own.
- Right?
- Again, even just like
(34:41):
when we're saying when there is thatambiguity, seeking other people’s
thoughts and advice that kind of groundand test that reality,
ask for help, seekculturally appropriate care.
And like therapeutic services,there's a lot of, a directories out there
to help people guide because,I mean, I'm
(35:02):
Black and I'm a psychologist
and even for metrying to find a culturally specific
or a person of color that's a therapistis really, really challenging.
And sothere are a few directories out there.
So like Therapy for Black Girls,
there's Latinx Therapy,Asian Mental Health Collective.
(35:26):
So there are a few out therethat you can research and they'll find
and help you find some, like, specific
therapists that deal orwork with your community.
And it's a nice, benefitpost-Covid as well,
because Covid forced us all to figure out
how to do these things onlineand through zoom.
So even if you're a Black personin Portland, where there aren't
(35:48):
a lot of Black people
you can find a Black therapistwho's maybe somewhere else
and still have a fulfilling,full relationship with that therapist.
Right. And that's licensed in your area.
Like it just has expandedso many options, for you, which has been
if we were to say there's a benefitfrom Covid, that being one of them, right?
(36:10):
There’s more…
the reach is wider, which is great.
So, S being soul care or attunement,A for ask for help,
F being find communitywhich I've already talked about
like the need to be around other people
that look and have similaridentity markers
(36:33):
to you is incredibly importantfor your mental health.
Especially if you identify stronglywith certain identity markers.
- Right.
Like if you're Black and don’t identify
super strongly with that community,that might not be that helpful.
But if you have a really strong affinityand connection to your identity,
(36:55):
specific identity markers, find communitythat also share those community markers,
those identity markers, because again,that's going to help ground you.
It's going to help youwith reality testing.
It is going to give you a sense --
it also gives you this placewhere you don't have to explain yourself.
Right?
Like, I can be with
(37:18):
a group of folks, Black folks,and I can just say about a thing
that happened at workand I don't have to say anything more.
And they are like, “oh my gosh”,they get some of the underlying,
the nuance that I don't have to thenexplain all the context to somebody else,
why that might be impacting me.
(37:39):
So find community.
E stands for engage in social activism,which I also talked about before as well.
These ways, it'skind of like talking about
finding the placeswhere you can have some control, right?
Like I might not be able to controlall of systemic racism, right?
Probably not.
I can't change all of that.
(38:01):
But where are the placesin which I can engage with and influence
within my realm of control?
And when I can do those kinds of things,especially when I am maybe part
of the mental health impacts that I haveis being subject to all of these things.
How can I find ways that is, you know,
(38:24):
you know,
whether that's votingor that is giving information
towards policies and things like thator creating a nonprofit
like what we've - what I've done withwith my friend and partner,
those kinds of thingsgive us this sense of
1. not just giving back, buttaking control and knowing, like,
“okay, I can make change, even if it's if that'sgoing to help my own mental health.
(38:49):
But it's also giving back and helpingothers their own mental health, too.”
T stands for tend to your whole essence.
So a lot of times when we are
experiencing stress,or going through anything major,
we tend to think of ourselves
(39:09):
only as that single identity,that one identity marker,
and to the exclusionof every other part of yourself.
Right?
So if I cut out every -- if I'm being,if I'm in a racist place
or I'm experiencing something,or if I go back to thinking about
just post-George Floyd,when there's all this heightened
awareness aroundwhat it means to be Black in America,
(39:31):
if I cut outall of the other parts of myself,
and I'm only focusing onwhat it means to be Black in America,
it's really distressing.
Right?
And then that's the only part of methat I'm tending to and making sense of.
So, of course,the stress that that's going to cause
(39:51):
takes up all of my mind space.
So what I mean about tending to your wholeessence is making sure that you're
looking at yourself, as “I'm not just aBlack woman, I'm also a daughter,
I'm a sister, I am a psychologist.
I am a creative.
I'm a …”- Podcaster!
“A podcaster. I'm all of these other things.
(40:12):
And so how do I intentionally invest
in these other parts of myselfso that I'm not overemphasizing -
this is not to diminish what's happeningin this part of your life,
but is to say that I am morethan just this one thing.
I have to be intentional aboutputting time and energy and investing,
(40:33):
reclaiming things that I've let go ofbecause this area of my life
has become so stressful.”
Or let's say your work, right?
Like, and I've been there myself that likemy work is causing me a lot of stress.
And then all of a sudden
I've cut out all of my fun things,all of the other parts of my life
to just kind of focus inand think about my work, and then
(40:56):
every other area of my lifebecomes affected because I've single -
become single minded about this onepart of my identity or one part of my life.
So really tending to your whole self
your spiritual self, your -if you have spiritual practices,
leaning into that,leaning into making time for your creative
(41:19):
endeavors, those kinds of thingsis going to be really …
- Those things recharge you.
Absolutely.
They recharge you and they bring youback to yourself, right?
Bring you back to morethan just the singular identity.
And then the last one is Y.
And I used to say,yank the plug. And yank the plug meaning
thinking abouthow do I engage in mindful isolation
(41:43):
or mindful isolation from, like,
external things like mediaor things that might be heightening
some of that anxiety or the stress aroundcertain identities and things.
So really taking the time to bewith yourself, right?
Like I'm going to disconnect from media
and disconnect from those kinds of thingsand reconnect in other places.
(42:05):
So, I just to recap thethe acronym is SAFETY.
S-A-F-E-T-Y (42:11):
Soul care, Ask for help,
Find community,
Engage in social activism,
Tend to your whole self,
and Yank the plug to engagein mindful isolation.
So there'slots of things that you can be doing.
I really again, I also recommend therapy.
(42:34):
And thinking about mental healthparticularly for BIPOC folks.
I can't …
mention this …
we can't have this conversationwithout also at least acknowledging the
internal kind of cultural bias
against psychological helpand mental health.
(42:55):
And so, I do believethat we're starting to shift and change.
Our world is shifting and changing.
Cultures are shiftingand changing to be more accepting of
psychological support and mental health.
But I also recognize that, like,
there's a lot of work to be donein certain communities to accept
therapy and therapeutic supports.
(43:17):
I think in just about every community,
- In every community.- there are some people who
have some bias against mental health.- Absolutely.
Mental health, therapy.
So and again that's why I think
finding culturally specificand appropriate care
that those folks knowwhat those stigmas might be.
(43:37):
That might be members of your community,can really help
you when you are startingto seek those services.
- Absolutely.- Yeah.
(Producer Eric) It doesn't helpthat every sitcom in the 90s was
dead set on referring to every therapist ever as a “quack.”
Right!
(Producer Eric) Talk about stereotyping!- Right. Yes.
(43:57):
Yeah. Yep.
We have lots of that cultural inertia.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I hate pretty much every portrayal
I see of a therapist or I mean, I'mnot a therapist as
the listeners know,
but if you think therapy is what you see
on TV as therapy, it's mostly not.
- Right.
It really isn't.
(44:18):
It's, you know, someone who's an expertin how your brain works, how,
your lifecan impact your emotional states.
And they're generally good at kindof helping you develop tools and skills
like we focus on on this podcast,to shift things in more positive ways.
- Right.
And sometimes it takes some timeto find the right person.
So I if I were to also just
(44:40):
throw this out there too,if you're thinking about or considering
finding a mental health therapist,counselor, social worker, psychologist,
please know thatlike it's about the right fit
and not everybody'sgoing to be the right fit for you.
So it's okay if it takes a few timesto find the right person.
You have to kind of dedicate yourself to,
(45:02):
like trying some folks onuntil you find the right one.
Yeah.
That feels like, “yes, I they get me,they see me,
they're giving me interventions
and having conversationsthat are actually moving me forward.”
So it's okay to break up with them.
Like they know, like this is a -
we know that, like, you're trying us out
and please,don't get discouraged
(45:25):
if the first person that you meet is like,“oh, I don't really like -
I didn't like that. That didn't feel good.”
Okay.
Like, give it like a couple of sessions
because the first couple area lot of paperwork and things like that.
But then after that, like, give yourselfpermission to try somebody else
until you find somebodythat you click with.
And also echoingsomething we've said before about, well,
(45:48):
it was about finding an immigration lawyer, actually.- Oh, yeah.
But word of mouth.- Yep.
So talk to your friends, colleagueswho maybe seek mental health,
they might know therapist that they'veused in the past or currently use that
would be good for you.- Yeah.
And we're bound to confidentiality.
So if you go to your friend's psychologistor therapist,
they're not going to be telling youabout your friend’s stuff,
(46:08):
and they're not going to tell your friendabout any of your stuff.
So that's important to know. Do.
(Giggling)
Also important for word of mouth
that's how people find new podcasts.
(Both laughing)
So, if …- A little self-promotion.
… if you like this podcast,you listen to it,
recommended it to others, do a little - like shareone of our posts from one of our socials
(46:30):
on your social media and say,“hey, check this out,
you can learn some skills!”Because that helps us out.
- That's great.- And that's my little tangent.
All right.
So we'll take a little breakand then we'll come back with story time.
Excellent.
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We now have Diverse Joymerch available for purchase.
(46:52):
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Get all of these.
At BiasHabit.com/store
(47:33):
or just go to DiverseJoy.comand click the store link.
All proceeds go toward helping usproduce the show, and you can also make
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Now back to the show.
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All right, well, welcome back.
And, we will moveright into our next segment,
(47:56):
which is our stories. And Will,you've got a couple stories for us.
I do, I do.
So as always,
we start with a more negative story timewhen someone expressed bias, maybe,
and this time it's a storywhere I express bias.
Oh, what? But you're a bias researcher, Will.
It happens to us all.
Andto pretendotherwise would to do a disservice.
(48:19):
- Yeah.- So this was a while ago
I think it's something --
Well, part of the storyis I know better now.
- Yeah.
But so, so
many years ago, I wasI was a young graduate student.
Just in the first couple of yearsof my career studying bias
but very fascinated in how prejudiceplays out and all the different
kind of types of bias and stereotypesand lived experiences.
(48:43):
So this was at an after baror after party, so like after bar time
like it was on the weekend,with a bunch of gay friends.
And I was specifically talking with twoBlack gay friends,
and one of them kind of expressedkind of, some dejection
or was a bit upset that he was havinga hard time in the dating community.
(49:07):
Dating pool.- I feel that one.
And specifically was sayingsomething things along the lines of,
you know, he encounterslots of guys who kind of aren't into
him because he's Black.
So some racism there.
And I was, I was very sympathetic
and interested and, and I believed him.
But as a scientist,
I was very fascinated to understandexactly how it happened.
(49:29):
Like, “what's going on?”Like, “how do you know?”
“How do you know that it was race?
And not just they're just not into youor because of what your career is or
who knows? How do you know it was race?”
And so so,you know, the way I just presented
it has a little more nuancethan what I actually said.
- Right.- I'm characterizing my intent.
And we talk a lotabout the difference
between intent and impact,they don't always mesh.
(49:51):
- Align, yeah.
What I said was, “how do you know?” Kindof a little more bluntly, “how do you know
it’s about race?” And the other,
Black gay friend, who'sone of my favorite people in the world,
kind of was like, “you can't say that”,or some version of that.
Like, “that's offensive.”
And I was like, “what are you talkingabout? Like, I'm just fascin --
I want to know. You know I'ma scientist who does the da da da.”
(50:12):
And he's like, “well, think about howmany times we get asked, ‘how do you know?’
And someone's trying to say,‘you just think it's about race.
It's not really about race.’And they're questioning it.”
And I mean, I was asking a questionI didn't intend to be questioning
that it was about race.
I was just very interested.
But, he helped me see, like,
(50:34):
“oh, of course, like, of coursethat's how it sounds.”
- Right.- That's how the impact is.
And that ties into
one of our skills,about adopting a cumulative perspective.
It's not - like that's probably the 100thtime he's had a question like that.
And what we were talking aboutwith attributional ambiguity,
like having to explain the context,for instance.
(50:57):
And so, so I had, a negative impactpotentially on his mental health.
But I do think the three of us,we talked it through and I apologized
and, and we,
especially the friend who called me out,
he's still one of my favorite peoplein the world.
But it goes to show, you know,
doesn’t matter if you're a bias researcher.- Right. Right.
You can you can make missteps and, andand we all make missteps
(51:20):
all the time, even related thingsthat aren't about bias.
And it's about, you know, fixingit, apologizing if you've done
some kind of harm, to someone else,even if it was unintended,
and then doing better next time,like I learned that night at like 3 a.m.
after partying all night, I learned,oh, kind of a how do you know question
isn't the right wayto go about something like that.
(51:43):
And and so, so I, I categorized itas a negative story, it was a time
I expressed bias, but I did learn from it.- Right. You learned from it.
And again, I think that
we … you're - nobody's perfect, right?
We're all going to make a misstep.
Pobody’s nerfect!
Pobody’s perfect! (Laughing)
Pobody’s nerfect,
(52:04):
I can't even say it.I can't even say it right. (Laughing)
Right.
But like, all we can askfor is being able to acknowledge
when we've made a miss, or as somebodywho receives something like that,
all I ask for maybe is
and maybe it's a better way of saying is,is that somebody can acknowledge that
(52:27):
and then do what they can to correct it,and for in the moment, and do what
they can to respond to thatand hopefully learn
larger lessons moving forward.
Yeah, and …- Which you did!
… there are always better waysto do things.
Sometimes slightly better,sometimes much better.
(52:47):
But like, we're always,
revising and figuring things outfor ourselves, so.
And with one another. Like I also, one thingto emphasize about that story,
I really appreciate the kindof coming together across the three of us.
It wasn't the personwho I kind of directly questioned
who then called me out.
It was it was the third party
who also has the kind of shared communityof being Black and gay.
(53:10):
- Right.
That, you know, rather than the person
who I asked, like, oh, how do you know,having to kind of defend himself.
Right.
We had our other friend come in,and I think that that makes it easier
and a better dynamicas well, having each other's backs.
- Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah.
Being able to, to stand upand, especially if it's not towards
you specifically, being ableto stand up and speak out;
(53:33):
not in a like White savior perspective,but like you see something happen and
you can be the one to speak up about itand say like,
“hey, I wonder how that impacted --”
And that's one of theways that I do this is,
“I wonder how that impacted that person?”You know, or like,
if I heard it this way,I wonder if they felt the same way.
Yeah. And it definitely,
(53:54):
I used that to, to make sure I do speak upabout similar things.
And I of course, that's my job.- Right.
As a “Diverse Joy”,
bias skill teacher,scientist practitioner.
But, like, I know I've been in similarcircumstances where someone had the
“oh, how do you…?” I’m like, let's
think about how we're asking that questionand how it feels.
(54:15):
- Yeah.- You know, let's take people's word for it.
They don't -
it's not a scientific study right now,
it's their experience.
- Yeah, exactly. That’s good.
That's really good.
Yeah.
And how about our our positive story?
- So a postive story!- The flip side of the coin.
So, so this one has a negative bit of bias
at the beginningand then ends up really positive.
(54:36):
Yeah. A different sort of bias altogether.
So this is actually a storythat happened to my dad.
And so my dad, he was
he was in the Army for many, many years,was retired Army lieutenant colonel.
And so that's a big part of his identity,
and some companyhe was working at, in his office
he had kind of memorabilia.
So things that have Americanflags on them and and stuff from
(55:01):
his military career, is something that's,a big source of pride for him.
Near and dear to his heart.Yeah. For sure.
And, this bias was kind ofagainst him because of that.
So there was someone at his workplace
who, really took issue with himhaving American flag memorabilia, like,
and his,kind of military stuff in his office.
(55:22):
- Yeah.
And said that it was creatinga hostile working environment
because he has so many American flags.
And, it was something thatkind of hurt my dad's feelings.
And, he didn't really understandat the time.
But because the workplacekind of took the complaint seriously,
they asked him to take everything down.
And so, you know, and our offices for
(55:44):
for all of us, you know,we personalize them especially, you know --
- Reflects us.
Yeah.
And have, you know,positive feelings for ourselves.
I think that on this podcast,something we would generally support,
so this was a sad thingfor my dad, that he was kind of
accused of creating kind of a hostileworking environment by something that,
I don't think any ofit was actually political per se.
(56:08):
Right.
It was just, you know, American flags.
But years later, when he - before he told me the story -
he came across some article,and I believe it was by
a Black woman who is -
it was something along the linesof “what the American flag means to me.”
- Yeah.
And she talked a lotabout the kind of ambiguity
(56:29):
and the complicated feelingsshe had about it,
where sometimes if people are kind of
too upfront with American flags,it made her feel like, “oh, this person,
is a little too
gung ho, and and,might be hostile towards me.”
And he really, like,
he read this articleand kind of really thought about
it was like, “oh, you know, to me,I just see it
(56:50):
and I see this source of pride for me,is something where I serve my country
in the military and, and all of this.
But other people see it differently.”
Yeah.
And came to a new understandingfrom reading and taking
someone else's perspectives seriouslyand really thinking through, he’s like
“now I kind of understandwhere -” and I mean, I'll say,
about the person who kind ofhad that problem with my dad's flags.
(57:13):
I feel similarly sometimes.- Yeah.
Sometimes
I kind of worry if you're too gungho about the American flag, I’m like
“oh, this person might be anti-gayor something like that”, because it's
one of these things that in culturehas started to become a symbol
for something morethan what it's supposed to be.
Right.
Where.
Yeah.
So, but but, the reasonthis is a positive story,
(57:34):
my dad reallykind of learned and was like,
“oh, I realized where that personwas coming from now.”
Yeah.
And I think it's it was years apartfrom when the thing happened to
when he looked back at it.
And then he and he shared that storywith me and Roman when we were
on a cruise with himand my mom, actually, and so,
so that's my positive storythat, you know, even if things,
happen later, you can learn more,learn differently.
(57:57):
Like, I don't have aperfect solution to this
because I kind of feel like I don't thinkhe should have had to take them down.
or maybe keep some or,you know, I don't know.
Yeah, it's -it's a tricky line, right?
Because, you know, this is another story.
But there's one of the thingsthat happened in my area,
(58:19):
part of the reason we startedmy nonprofit, was the school board
kind of made a
ban on all thingsthat were BLM and pride flags.
So any kind of memorabilia that wasthat, essentially stating
the same thing that they couldn'thave BLM or pride flags
because it was …- BLM is Black Lives Matter.
Excuse me. Yes.
(58:39):
Because that made other peoplefeel it was political
and that it was causing a hostile
environment for the students.
But they didn't do itfor the American flag.
But a lot of those same students,the students that, you know,
might have been waving
BLM or pride flagsfelt similarly about American flags.
(59:01):
So it is an interesting,it's an interesting thing.
But I really appreciate
I appreciate that he was able to sit with,
“Okay, now I understand how or whysomebody may have been reacting to
to this from their perspectivethat I do not have that same association
with these emblems or thesesignifiers, like the American flag.”
(59:25):
It also reminded me of,
this,
this interactionand this interview, actually,
about a Black person interviewingsomebody who had a ton
of Confederate flags displayed.- Very different symbol.
Very different symbols.
But the all these Confederate flagson their lawn, in their house and
and they came and were like,“oh, can you tell me about these,
(59:48):
the Confederate flags?”
And they were talking about southern prideand a bunch of other things.
And they had this really beautifulconversation.
And the the Black personjust kind of sat and listened
and then was like,“can I share what it - like, how I
perceive it, how I,how what it means to me?” And it was
this is a really beautiful cross dialogwhere the person
(01:00:11):
who had all of these flagsdisplayed was able to say like,
“Oh, I now I see how that is impact.
What, what kind of negative,negative impact that has on other people.
Even though this is about meand my source of pride, I can see how that
that level of pridecan make you feel scared and harmful.
That has some harm on you.”
(01:00:33):
I kind of wonder, so like kind of,you and I right now workshopping
a solution for,you know, my dad in the past again.
we'll hop in a time travelingTARDIS later
and go see if we can help -
Like, what if it werethe American flag paired with,
pride flag, BLM - I think this was beforeBlack Lives Matter - but, you know,.
(01:00:55):
because if I so, so me recognizingthat I could have a reaction
sometimes when I see an American flagbecause of some of these associations.
But if it were paired withsomething else, like,
like the idea that these peoplewho are very flag forward are maybe,
anti-gay or potentially
racist or whatever, which I don't thinkit's a it's not a fair jump
(01:01:18):
- True.- necessarily, but it's a reaction we both have.
For sure.
But if there was something elsejust to reassure that it's not
that you can have this, this, pridein the United States and
symbols supporting other things.
Would that make it better?
You know,I think it would, you know, it reminds
and I'm sure I've shared this beforebecause it's my favorite quote,
(01:01:42):
one of the things I talk aboutso often
when it comes to diversity conversationsand things like that is,
1. I have to recognize my impacton other people, how I how I present.
Right?- Yeah.
Whether it's again, my intention or not.
I know I'm a verbal processor,for instance. Right?
So I talk a lotand sometimes may say things
that sound like a statementwhen it's not really a statement.
(01:02:02):
It's just like the first thoughtthat's in my mind,
and I'm just trying to work outwhat I actually believe until I get there.
Right.
And I have to recognize what that means,or I'm really
I can be very boisterous in spaces,and that can be offputting to people.
And I need to acknowledgeand recognize that impact.
Right?
And Audre Lorde has this quote that says,
(01:02:23):
“if I did not define myself for myself,
I would be crunched into other people'sperceptions of me and eaten alive.”
- Yeah.
And for me, what that means is, again,recognizing that, like,
if somebody sees me or hears me oris interacting with me, how different ways
in which they might perceive thator project onto those pieces.
(01:02:43):
And so in the same way with the flag,like if I can be
aware of the different perceptionsof the American flag, and I know that
that is not how I see the flag
or how I, I interact with it.
How can I intentionally mitigatethe potential harm
(01:03:05):
of saying like or adding …
- A difference in perception.- … difference in perception
of saying like, “okay, if I know that likethis might might signal
to people that I'm, you know, anti-gayor I'm anti-Black or whatever,
maybe I can put other things with itthat would signal like, yeah, I'm,
I love America, or I'm a vet or I'm athis and, you know, I support …
(01:03:28):
- “I support gay troops.”- … gay troops and I support these
you know, Black livesand I support these things.”
That gives a much morenuanced perception of people.
- I’m thinking of like bumper stickers, right now.- Yeah, yeah.
You have your whatever military or …- right.
… or flag bumper sticker.
But then also put like - if it’s my dad,“I love my gay son” or things like that.
(01:03:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And those -
that relates to one of the skillswe had in a recent episode
of broadening your input through imagesin the environment.
You're not leaving it up to people's,interpretation or the ambiguity.
- Right.- Back to that.
You're just stating, like I support --I believe that Black Lives Matter.
I support, you know, love is love.
(01:04:11):
Those kinds of things.
Absolutely.- And also support the troops or
have pride in that as well.
Absolutely. 100%.
And I actually really like thatbecause again, I think
I've talked about that a lot when it comes tohow I'm telling people about myself.
But I think it's, from our input,our images and things like that,
(01:04:31):
that there's lots of ways that we can be doingthat and being intentional about
not allowing other peopleto see us through a singular lens, too.
- Yeah. Absolutely.
That’s great.
So yeah, that was my
flag story - really because it's Julyso 4th of July month.
So happy Independence Daypeople in the U.S.
And yeah those were our stories.- Excellent.
(01:04:52):
All right.
So next, we have an audience question.
So this was sent inby one of Amber’s colleagues.
And it's going to be framedin terms of kind of research data.
But, but I think our conversationwill go beyond that a little.
So, you know, as researchers,we often present data about, like Amber
did at the start of this episode of
rates of mental health issuesin various communities.
(01:05:16):
But also sometimes,we present data about just any
prominence of different kinds of behaviorsor things like that.
So the question is how, or whatshould we consider when presenting data
or leading discussions about groupsthat we don't belong to?
So, for instance, if you're a straightresearcher, educator or person talking
(01:05:36):
about the LGBT community or a White personpresenting data on people of color,
those sorts of things,like what are some of the considerations?
And how do we go about that,making sure that it's respectful
and we're not just,
exacerbating stereotypesor our own assumptions?
And, Amber, you're going to get usstarted, and I have some thoughts as well.
(01:05:58):
Yeah.
Well, I think, you know, as somebodywho's been in academia, both from a data
standpoint and clinical standpoint,this is something that comes up a lot.
And one of the things that I talk aboutor I think of immediately
is also being really conscientious of my positionality
(01:06:19):
and being very clear about, like, here'smy background and also my connection
to the community or the population,
whether I'm an in-group or not.
But like I do this research,I work with this population
I’m connected to it or however, likewhat is my connection to the population,
(01:06:40):
and how much - and really beingvery explicit about the care and attention
that you're paying to how you're holdingit and handling this, and that
this is also informed
by input from people within,
that are part of that group,part of that population.
That it's not just my interpretation
(01:07:01):
of somebody else's experience.
Absolutely.
And in science, we always are working ongetting our
subjectivity out of the process.
But I think this is a placewhere it's especially important.
And so, I even had in my notesalmost exactly what you just said,
make sure you at least read up onor discuss with members of that group.
Like, how do they think about these issuesgenerally?
(01:07:24):
How do they think …?
Because as much as we scientistslove to believe that we're discovering
some great new thing,you know, in the study of human behavior
someone else has alreadyprobably talked about this issue.
And I bet members of that community havehad opinions about it, at the very least.
So so consider those.- Mmhmm.
Even if you're not able to personallytalk to someone, at least read up;
the internet is full of people
(01:07:47):
talking about stuff.
There are videos,
there are quotes, there's other papers.
And with that, one of the skillswe've talked about previously,
listen with humility, both in termsof before you kind of pull together
a presentation on something and after,because maybe you've done as much care
and careful work as possible,but someone might still have a reaction,
(01:08:09):
- Absolutely, yeah.
that you need to listen to with humility.
And it's not, you know, their reactionis valid, but whatever it is,
it might not invalidate the dataor something, but you need to listen
to how they're receiving what you've said.
And figure out if that maybe there'sa different way to say it.
And… Do you have more on that before …?I have one more.
(01:08:31):
- Yeah. No.
- Yeah. I think that that'sone of the biggest things.
And, you know, we talked about previouslyamplifying amplifying voices, too.
And so in the same way,not only just hearing it from,
but we're also amplifying,we're bringing those things in and talking
about my own again, when I saytalk about your own positionality
and where you sit within this,but also your own,
(01:08:55):
which we've modeled several times,our own missteps
or our own interactions with this dataand how maybe how I perceived it
initially, or what
my initial thoughts wereand how this new data or this information
shifts and changes how I interact with itor interact with this population.
Again, really positioning yourselfwithin this data, not centering yourself,
(01:09:17):
but recognizing and allowing the audienceto understand what perspective
you're coming from and how they can thendo the same thing with this information.
Yeah. And think about, kind of,
an audience’s worst possible interpretation
of what you're saying and then make sureyou provide appropriate context.
(01:09:37):
So what we started with today,
that people of colorhave kind of worst mental health.
And maybe less seeking ofmental health services.
You know, one could interpretthat as,
“well, people of color are mentally weak.”
- Right. Right.
But we providedthe context of they're facing
prejudice, they're facing oppression,
there are these stressorsbuilt into society that are,
(01:09:58):
at least in part,and I think in large part,
the cause of some of these things
providing that kind of cultural contextfor the people you're talking about,
to the extent that you can, is helpful.
Don't leave it to people's kind of worstpossible interpretations.
- Yep.
And closely related to that is to watchout for what we call a deficit approach.
(01:10:20):
So, for instance, if we're comparingmen and women, let's say we could say
if they're differenton some kind of scale, we could phrase it
as, oh, “well, women are worse on this,”or “men are better on this.”
And much more oftenwe tend to emphasize the stigmatized group
being lower, worse.
Not as well off on somethingthat's adopting a deficit approach.
(01:10:42):
Related to that, you also need to thinkabout the other side of the group.
Maybe it has something to dowith the more dominant group.
And this is something thatI dealt with a lot
with that gaydar researchthat I talked about over a year ago
I think now, we had that original episode,
but there's all this research,related to what
people call the sexual inversiontheories of homosexuality.
(01:11:04):
Basically, the idea of gay menare feminine and lesbians are masculine.
And, without going on along tangent about it,
it really sets up this situation wherebasically what masculinity or femininity -
I'll just stick with men for the moment.
Masculinity ends up getting definedas whatever straight men do.
(01:11:25):
So if straight men are doing somethingthat is the definition
of masculine behavior.- Right, right.
And so then if gay men do anythingdifferent,
that's considered less masculine.
But it's - everything is set up
so that whatever it is straightmen are doing, it's, it's more masculine.
And then there's a gay deficit approach
where we're doing somethingweird, inverted.
And like, this idea of sexual inversion,
(01:11:47):
I mean, it was a major factorin the Holocaust.
And was used to persecute and asa reason for, a rallying cry for the Nazis
against gay folks,
gay men, especially,and thousands
and thousands were murdered, and,and so it's become a hot button thing.
(01:12:07):
But then we have some researchers,
who are, kind of like, “oh, yeah, you know,gay men are kind of gender inverted.”
And it's like, well,are there different ways to talk about it?
- Right.- And in one, this is a, peer review.
I did, I was like, well, “can we frame thisas what's wrong with straight people?”
So I was being sassy.
I also wouldn't recommend doing itexactly like that.
(01:12:28):
Right, right.
Like, what actually happenswhen you look at the data
Gay men and lesbianshave much more variability.
So they're both more masculineand more feminine,
when we find ways of defining thatwhich again, they're often defined
by what straight people do,which I don't agree with.
But, basically, as we said in a previous
episode, also LGBT people will go througha coming out process.
(01:12:50):
They question norms, and we're more likelyto violate norms in many directions.
And really,the thing that actually explains
gender expression and data more is that straightpeople don't do that as much.
So straight males, straight men in generalare much more restricted
in their gender expression.- Right.
And so they end up looking kind of kind ofvery limited in what they do.
(01:13:13):
And then gay people are justmore comfortable breaking out of that.
And so you could create awhole story about,
“ gosh, what's wrong with straight people?
Why are they so stuck on norms?
Why are they so afraid to…”- “Why don’t they explore more?”
“… Yeah, why don't they break gender norms?”
And actually the coming outprocess is part of that.
And we can make a whole story that says,“yeah, what's wrong with straight people?
Why aren't they more like gay people?
(01:13:34):
Maybe the way gay people is, is better.”- Right.
“Straight people are so,you know, entrapped by gender norms.”
And I'm not advocating forthat approach either.
That's a straight deficit approach,saying there's something wrong with them.
But but there's a better way than assumingthat there's something wrong
with the gay people, we can say “both and”
as as you always love to say, bingo.- Both and, yes!
(01:13:56):
Diverse Joy bingo.
(Amber laughing)
So. So I'd say really watch outfor the deficit approaches.
We can talk about what's going on inboth groups and,
potential positive and negative,aspects of both,
without
resorting to language that isolates,especially the less powerful group.
(01:14:16):
Right, right.
That's great. Thank you.
All right. So that was our question.
And now I'll takeanother little break for us.
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music plays ]
All right.
Welcome back from break.
And as we round out our episode,
we will end with our skill and joy.
(01:14:38):
But what is our habit- breakingskill for this episode, Will?
All right, everyone --
(Producer Eric) We don’t end on the skill, there’s still joy.
The skill and joy.
Skill and joy.
I said joy, too!- Last two things:
Skill.
Then joyful recommendation.- Our penultimate part.
So today's, or this month's,this episode’s habit-breaking skill is
(01:15:00):
focused around retraining reactions.
This is something we visited before.
But it was a long time ago, andwe actually had people kind of send in
suggestions and ideasof revisiting it.
So we talked about this in thesecond time
Sandy was here when we talked about transand non-binary issues.
(01:15:20):
But basically we kind of have our kind
of default, habitual way of responding,which often is going to reflect bias.
We have these bias habits.- Right.
And, we want to retrain those into,
cognitive patterns and habitsthat are more in line with our intentions.
- Right.
And I have this pneumonic device,and this was also kind of drawn on,
(01:15:41):
a bit of inspiration
from cognitive behavioral therapy,like we were talking about earlier.
This mnemonic devicesdetect, reflect, reject.
So first you want to detectyour automatic response.
This can be a bias popping to mind.
Or something that you're saying ordoing that you want to change.
You need to start tuning in toand detecting it.
Then you want to bring in your
more deliberative, thoughtfulcognitive processing.
(01:16:03):
So reflecting on it like, “gosh, whatcould the impact of this be?
How might this create more biasin my decision making?”
Or as we talked about today, “what might bethe impact on someone else?
How might this affect their mental health?”
Maybe pulling in that cumulativeperspective on bias would be helpful
in how you're reflecting on things.- Right.
(01:16:23):
And then, if, if this reaction that you'retrying to retrain,
if you decide it's not how you want to be,then you reject it, say,
“that's not how I want to be.”And then bring in
some kind of thought or behavior
or speech patternthat is more in line with your intentions.
So one example, modified from somethingthat someone sent in.
(01:16:46):
So, for instance,
if you have a kind of stereotypicalthought about someone you see.
So let's say you're walking aroundand you see a Black person
and maybe you have kind of a reactionlike a fear response that we know
people often have thinking,“oh, this person might be dangerous.”
Think about Black people you admire.
Think about
Black professors that you've had.
(01:17:06):
Think about Amber.
Think about
other people in your lifeor in the media who's someone
a member of that groupthat you admire, that you don't associate
that kind of fear reaction with.Reminding yourself,
“Of course
not all Black people are dangerousor criminal” or whatever the assumption is.
One way that that I'veheard people doing this
so they'll they'll see a Black personout in the world who's maybe
(01:17:27):
not just very nice, wearing sweatsand maybe a little disheveled.
And often they'll make an assumption.
“Oh, this is some homeless person,”
but really, lots of people on theweekends aren't dressed up.
Right.
I know me,
I look pretty slouchy when I'm nottrying to present or do a specific event.
You know, imagine, you know, this,this Black person who's in sweats out,
(01:17:48):
you know, walking around,living their like,
maybe they're a professor!- Right!
Maybe they're a rich business owner,
and this is the weekend
they're not trying to be well put togetherand they're just living their life.
Yeah, they're just running outto the store to pick something up.
And I think we all sometimesjust do that in kind of sweats and things.
You can create a fictionalbut plausible story in your mind
(01:18:11):
to counteractthe stereotypic assumptions
which are going to, by default,be more powerful.
So you can detect,
“oh, I'm having kind of a stereotypicalor biased reaction to this person.”
Reflect on it.
“Really, what else could be going on here?
Who else could this person be?”
And you kind of rejectthat stereotypical notion.
We've talked about this, the“you guys” example that we've brought up
(01:18:31):
a few times, “you guys”is a phrase I would use.
I started detecting when I was using it.
I reflected on, “hey, this isn't as gender
inclusive as I want to be,”rejected it and started saying, “you all.”
Yeah.
And I also want to tie itto this notion of
attributional ambiguityand kind of mental health stuff
we talked about this the season.
So like,
(01:18:53):
you can recognize ifyou start detecting yourself being like,
“oh!” - in one of these situations -“was that racist?
Was that biased? I'm not sure.”
Start thinking about the factsabout attributional ambiguity,
“I know if I sit hereand dwell on this, it's going to
harm my mental health.”Maybe draw on some of the SAFETY things,
like talk to a friendwho's also a member of that group
(01:19:15):
who can be like,“yeah, that was” or “no, that wasn't.”
Or just accept the ambiguity
and just reject it and be like,“I don't care anymore.”
- Right.- And I said that as a statement
maybe I'm asking that.
Do you think that works to just reject itand not think about it anymore?
Would that therapeuticallybe a good way to eliminate ambiguity or …
(01:19:35):
- Yeah, I think --- … or just accept ambiguity?
Accept. Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I think that, you know, it's --I may have mentioned in an
earlier episode, kind ofwhen we think about mindfulness, right?
Is that we're not ruminatingon a singular thought.
We're acknowledgingand recognizing the thought that comes in,
and we're letting it kind of go by.
(01:19:57):
Right?
Kind of like
if you were to put it on a leafand let it kind of float down the river.
Right?- Yeah.
And we can't necessarily --
we talk about intrusive thoughtsor things like that, like we
you can kind of allow it, acknowledgethat this was a thought that I had.
And then the letting go isallowing it to kind of -
we're not sitting there staring at itand examining it, but saying like,
(01:20:21):
“and that thoughtcan kind of keep moving through,” right?
We're letting it blow through.
So yes, it's definitely something that we
talk about from a mindfulness perspective.
And I think they can absolutelycan be helpful when it comes
to those kinds of ambiguous interactions.
I think that sometimesit can be hard as a BIPOC person
(01:20:42):
to like to necessarily just let,just like to allow it
to just kind of move past and I can -I see
how it can be really helpfu, too,to not sit and ruminate on things
that might be harmful to us, too.- Yeah.
And this this is also somethingwhere I think I've said this
a couple timesthis season: with all these skills,
(01:21:05):
they're for you to apply
and use when they're useful for you.
So, so what you're describing right now,I think there's variability
for some people,just the mindful kind of, “eh, whatever,”
and letting it go
might be right for them, for other people,a little bit of more kind of,
using one of the safety things,like I said, like talking to someone about
(01:21:28):
it would be better for them.
- Yeah.
Like, everyone has kind of differentcognitive styles and ways of
going about things.
So you can figure out whichapproach might be
right for you. - And it might be different contexts. Right?
Like in certain contextswhere I feel more safe and secure,
I might be able to very easily say like,“oh, that …
I'm just going to let that go.”
Like, I know this personor I know the space or
(01:21:50):
I understand this context differently.
And then in some other contextswhere maybe there's either more
ambiguity or I don't have as much
contextual awareness in that space.
Maybe I'm going to use
a different kind of approachto how I'm holding and maybe retrain -
still coming backto this kind of retraining my reaction -
(01:22:13):
but I might come at it from adifferent angle.
Yeah.
And each circumstancecould be different as well.
So, this is what you said. So I'm just,
this is a story I'llprobably share in some future episode.
I know I have it in my bank,but it was ambiguous
whether someone was being anti-gaytowards me or not,
like someone was really hostile to me, andI really didn't think it was justified,
(01:22:34):
except that I wear this rainbow watch band,
and so people will … I was like,
“What? Was my behavior somehow awful?”
So I was ruminating on it.- Right.
This is a person I would never see again.
Like, we happened to be on a bus together
and they were rude to me and,so for me -
- and I did ruminated on it for a while -but I'm thinking about it now
(01:22:56):
just assuming,
“Yep. They were anti-gay.”And rejecting it like “whatever” …
- Yeah.
… is probably more mentally healthy for me.
I'm not going to everget more information about that situation.
I'm never going to encounterthat person again.
So it's not like it's a coworkerwhere I maybe need to figure --
assuming that they're racist or anti-gaywould maybe be problematic for my ongoing --
(01:23:16):
- Yeah. - But this is someone I never have to face again.
And so just assuming,
“yeah, they were anti-gay jerks.”- Right.
-Yep. - Screw them.
I know people like that exist,and it's not my business.
That would be morementally healthy for me.
- Yep.
For that circumstance.- For sure. For sure.
So different ways
to think about this and different waysto apply this detect, reflect, reject.
(01:23:38):
The reject could be just letting it floatdown on the leaf.
- Right?
Or it could -- or what have you. - Yeah. Right.
And it comes -
you know, I mentioned this earlier, too,around the reality testing,
that's part of that like, “okay,
is there merit to this or is there not?”
And that's that detectingand reflecting on it.
Yeah.
And also with reality testing like whatwould be the case if it were true?
(01:24:01):
What would be the case if it were false?
And sometimes the answer to both is“it doesn't matter to me anymore.”
- It doesn't matter! - Ot's not going to affect my life
into the future …- Yeah.
… unless I keep ruminating on.- Right.
And so it's that ruminationthat we need to just let go of.
- Yep. Absolutely, absolutely.
Anytime we're ruminating on things,
it rarely results in positive outcomesif I'm being honest.
(01:24:24):
Yeah.
And that's what the research shows
unless it is kind of activelyproblem solving.
Right, yes.
And it's something that you needto problem solve like …
Yeah, ruminationgenerally leads to just more depression.
Yeah. Yep. 100%.
All right. So so that was our skill.
Yeah.
Retrain your actionswith that detect, reflect, and reject.
(01:24:47):
And I think, when we'rethinking of kind of mental health
and the impact of prejudiceand bias on ourselves,
when we're the targets of it, that couldbe especially useful for a lot of people.
- Mmhmm.
And also for retraining our biasesthat we might be in danger of expressing.
- Yep.
I know we're kind of closing up this part, but I'm also thinking about,
(01:25:09):
you know, we we talk a lot about CBT,and I've brought in ACT a lot,
but also the retraining,our reactions reminds me of realigning
to our values, such as ACT.
Which stands for Acceptanceand Commitment Therapy?
- Yes. Yeah.
Thinking about what your values are,what's important to you.
And then the the relevance of thethe rumination or what?
(01:25:29):
Retraining our thoughts.
Right?
Retraining our reactionsbased on our values.
Right.
And so that's that's part of my,my thought is how do we …
Like the “you guys” thing,let's say I slip up and say “you guys,”
“oh gosh, I'm really tryingto have more gender inclusive language
and not this kind of presumptionthat everyone's male.
So I'm trying to say ‘you all’and even saying that out loud…”
- Saying it out loud.
(01:25:50):
Because let's say someone was offendedbecause I said, “you guys” and
they’re a womenor they’re non-binary or whatever,
you know, by you then addressing it,you remove that ambiguity.
Like, “I'm tryingnot to have that in my language anymore.”
So your impact on someone elsecan be mitigated by acknowledging
- Yes.- … that something you said
doesn't align with your values.
Right! And for yourself as well.
(01:26:10):
Right. Like this is my value.
It's not just a behaviorI'm trying to change.
It can also just be a behavioryou're trying to change.
- You’re changing because of your values.
Changing because of your values. Exactly.
Yep yep.
Wonderful. Thank you.Oh all right. So those are skill today.
Now the
second piece of bread on our“Diverse Joy” sandwich
(01:26:31):
- Yes, yes.
the joyful recommendation!
So Amber has arecommendation for us today.
And I don't know how we haven't done thisrecommendation yet,
but, it is “Doctor Who”.
Woo. I love “Doctor Who”.
We love “Doctor Who”.
“Doctor Who” has been on for…
I'm gonna look to our
producer to double check how many seasonsand how long it's been on.
(01:26:55):
Do you know, off the top of your head?
(Producer Eric) Off the top of my head,
if you're talking about thisevery season …
- It’s since the 60s?- It's it's been on for a long time.
There are 26 seasons from the original
era of 63 to 89,
14 from 2005 to present,
(01:27:16):
spanning 883 episodes,
97 of which are classified as missing.
Missing?
And 311 …
They didn't like save the tapesand recordings.
I didn’t even know that.
They didn't do that in televisionbecause television was just a
broadcast.- Just kind of a broadcast.
Oh, interesting see, I'm learningso much already.
(01:27:39):
But it is such a --did you have more?
(Producer Eric) 311 stories, which I believeis the audio dramas that they do.
But for the modern “Doctor Who”, it's been since 2005, there are about 13…?
14 seasons since 2005.
Yeah, it is just -- it's the story of
(01:28:00):
time traveler - Time Lord. And,
they go through time and space and bring,
you know, travel companionsalong the way. And,
each kind of Doctor
is a different person or a different body,and kind of a little bit
of a different personalityas they shift and they,
(01:28:23):
kind of when he or they die, essentially,
they regenerate into this,like new character and this new person.
And it's just it's kind of wacky.
It's super fun.
It's very sci fi, (both) heartwarming.
There's so many really good storylinesand the storylines of the companions
(01:28:44):
that he takes along
are they take along with themas they travel, throughout time and space.
And sometimes you learn a littlesomething historical and
sometimes it's aliens and sometimes it'ssomething really historically accurate.
It's just really, really fun.
And, again, the classic ones
(01:29:04):
I have not watched very much of.
But the most famous one is Tom Baker,which you've seen,
I'm sure most people have seen
pictures of Tom Baker, which is the really,really long scarf and the hat.
And the current ones, the most current Doctor is
NCuti Gatwa who's a Black gay man
and actually is
(01:29:27):
Black and gay on the show,which is really fantastic representation.
And the Doctor right before thiswas Jodie Whittaker
which was the first femaleor woman, presenting, Doctor.
And so there's justthere's just it's just really fun.
I love it, it is a really -there's just great stories.
(01:29:48):
And in the new, the new “Doctor”,one of the villains, was Jinkx.
Jinkx Monsoon.
Which, you know, I love to talk aboutdrag queens.
- “Diverse Joy” bingo!(Both laughing)
(Producer Eric) We got there!- We got there!
You know,I was going to bring it around eventually.
And it's on Disney+.- Disney+.
(01:30:08):
So there is a couple bingo words for you.
So, if I may.
- Yeah, yeah.- So if you've never watched
“Doctor Who”, I have a strong suggestionfor how to start.
- Yeah.
So this was the first season of
“Doctor Who” I was introduced to,and it's just so good.
It's a contained story over one season,and it introduces you
(01:30:31):
to everything you need to be introduced toand wraps it all up in a perfect bow.
It was my first season of “Doctor Who”,and when I introduced Roman to it,
I was like, we start in this season.
And he's like,“but that's kind of in the middle.”
And I'm like, “trust, just trust me.”
So it's so, you know, they're British,so they're series, not seasons
series five of the modern “Doctor Who”.
(01:30:51):
That's the first season withMatt Smith as the Doctor.
And they just have such a beautiful
and perfect storyfrom start to finish that season.
That introduces you to everythingyou need.
It starts fresh.
You don't need to have prior knowledge
and it will get you so into the charactersand so into the whole world.
(01:31:12):
Then you can keep watching.- All of the villains and everything. Yeah.
So we did that.
I did that with Roman.
And then we watched from thereto the modern time, and then went back
and watched some of the older,still from the modern series.
But it's a perfect self-contained season.
So I highly recommend,
that one.
Yeah. Yeah.
(01:31:32):
They're just all ofthey all have very special - and again,
just characteristics and personalitiesand, and you know, everybody kind of
has their own favorite Doctor,which one's their favorite.
And definitely Matt Smith. AndDavid Tennant is one of my favorites.
Ncuti Gatwa is definitely becomingone of my favorites.
(01:31:54):
So it's just really good.
And I'm just going to put one more plugabout Jinkx Monsoon, as a drag queen,
and also a trans woman,which again, is just really great
representation in
“Doctor Who”.
And she's also from Portland,
and so lives in neighborhoodsnot too far from, far from me.
(01:32:16):
So I have a very special placein my heart
for Jinkx Monsoon,and I'll just put an extra plug for her.
She's now, like, expanding into Broadway.
And so she's been in“Little Shop of Horrors”
and “Chicago” and doing all kinds of really,really great things.
So, it'sa little tangential plug for Jinkx.
So that was our joyful recommendation.
(01:32:38):
I echo it very strongly. Hurrah!
All right, well, I amDr. William Cox, and…
I'm Dr. Amber Nelson.
“Diverse Joy” is produced byEric Roman Beining
with music by Jay Arner.
It is accessibleas a video podcast on YouTube or an
audio only podcast wherever you get podcasts,or at DiverseJoy.com.
(01:33:00):
Also follow us @DiverseJoyon most social media platforms.
If you enjoy the show, help us reachmore people by leaving
five star reviewsor recommending it personally.
“Diverse Joy” is the official podcastof Inequity Agents of Change,
a nonprofit devoted to evidence-based approaches
to reduce bias, create inclusion,and promote equity.
(01:33:22):
All that good JEDI work.
Learn more at BiasHabit.com.
Thank you for joining us.
(Both) Now go find your joy. Bye!
(01:44:22):
And speaking of, here are some stats.
Jynx identifies as non-binary
and uses they pronouns when not in drag.
(01:44:45):
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.
Excellent. Cool.
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