S2E13: Diverse People Bring Diverse Perspectives

Will’s joy this month is the annual Woof’s Boat Cruise in the lakes around Madison, and Amber's is a lovely, heartwarming gift from her former students! The cohosts start off discussing the benefits that diversity brings to organizations. Teams with more diversity tend to have more creative, transformative solutions to problems, and some reports say that corporations with more diversity actually make more money. They also caution against thinking of diversity only in terms of utility, because removing barriers to full inclusion is just the right thing to do! Next, they talk about the unfortunate “Pet to Threat” phenomenon that can often push diverse people out of organizations. Coined by Dr. Kecia Thomas and her colleagues, Pet to Threat involves someone, often a person of color, first being trotted out as wonderful addition to an organization (like a “Pet”), but when they have new ideas or want to address problems in the organization, people start turning against them (they become a “Threat”). Another analogy for this is that organizations start off excited for someone to “shake things up” (seen as a positive), but when they start actually making changes, they’re “rocking the boat” (seen as a negative). During Story Time, Will and Amber share about their own Pet to Threat experiences and how that impacted them, and also how having the “Pet to Threat” label for their experiences has been therapeutic for them and others!  This episode’s question involves the difference between “inclusion” and “belonging”, with a conversation around how and why many organizations have recently begun adopting “belonging” as a major diversity goal.  This episode’s bias habit-breaking skill is to Track the Data. Tracking data is a great way to assess where problem areas might be and also how well you’re doing with solutions. Look at types of data you might track regarding your customers, clients, employees, or even just yourself! Will’s joyful media recommendation is the adorable, smart, and endearing television show, “Bluey!”, which is great for kids and adults!

The cohosts shouted out and promised to link you to a lot of extras this episode, so check these out if you wish!

America Ferrera’s amazing TED Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/america_ferrera_my_identity_is_a_superpower_not_an_obstacle 

An article by Dr. Kecia Thomas about Pet to Threat: https://www.forbes.com/sites/keciathomas/2024/01/13/the-persistence-of-pet-to-threat/ 

The song “A Diagnosis” from Crazy Ex Girlfriend: https://youtu.be/uic_3vlI5BE?si=Fv58K0tbGe4Uo6Oj 

Two great Instagram accounts Will and Amber recommend:  https://www.instagram.com/astar4real/  https://www.instagram.com/aletheacrimmins/ 

Brene Brown on how “fitting in” is the opposite of belonging: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2ClCPF9w7yc 

Also check out the wonderful work by Julie Oyemaja and the Interprofessional Primary Care Institute: https://www.linkedin.com/company/interprofessional-primary-care-institute  

We now have merch! Buy some to support the show at https://www.biashabit.com/store

Follow Diverse Joy on social media, including Facebook, Instagram,
So this, this is August.
We're in the heat of summer.
And I know we've already talked aboutpride in the Pride Month episode.

(01:02):
Yes.
But actually, Madison,you know, there's overall Pride Month
but then cities have their Pride Weekendson particular weekends.
Madison Pride is technically in August.- Oh!
But I'm sure people are tired of metalking about Pride.
But, because of that,one of the events that happens here
in Madison is a boat cruise.
So there's this, local establishmentscalled Woof’s -

(01:23):
- it's a gay bar -
rents out a little boat.
Well, kind of a big boat, actually.
And you buy a ticket for it,and then it's a bunch of
members of the gay community,and they have snacks and booze.
And Madison, Wisconsin is situated in the middle of 3or 4 very large, beautiful lakes.
And so we go around the lake a few times.

(01:46):
And it's just a really nicesense of community.
And you get nice breezeon the lake, usually.
So even when it's warm out,
it's very comfortableand it's just, kind of a fun event.
I love it.
That’s awesome.That's so great.
That sounds like so much fun. I love that.
I love that. And Madison is beautiful,
so I imagine it's gorgeous and fun

(02:08):
and really great time with community, too.
And it shifts your perspective because,you know, you're used to being on the land
and you're seeing buildingsfrom the other side
because a lot of the buildingsare right up against the lake.
You get to see beautiful houseson the edge of the lake.
We have this thingcalled the Monona Conference Center.
We took some promo photos there.
- I kept saying Moana instead of Monona.

(02:29):
(Laughing) Yeah, Moana, Monona.
And, you get to see it -like it's right on the lake,
and it kind of looks like a giant shipitself, like, jutting out into the water.
Monona Terrace and Conference Center,Eric Roman is correcting me.
Thank you, Eric Roman.
And, but, yeah.
So it's beautiful, fun, cool activity …

(02:49):
… in August- Yeah. That's very cool.
I love that.
Gotta get my tickets forit for this month.
Yeah, I think I saw a poster for it,and I was like, ooh,
I wish I was going to be here for it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You got to see Woof’s, the bar.We went there and
had a couple cocktails last night.
That was fun, too.- It was great. It was really great.
Awesome.
And how about you, Amber?

(03:10):
What is bringing you joy?
Yeah, well, at this point, it's been --
At the end of last year,I resigned from my academic position.
- Yes.
And which, you know, comeswith lots of feelings.
End of last school year.
Last school year, yes. Academic year.
But my joy -

(03:31):
and it continues to bring me joy -
was a going away gift
that my students made me.
And my -
one of my favorite quotes,
and I've probably shared it before,
if I haven't
I'd be surprised if I haven't shared itbefore, but it's a Maya Angelou quote
and it says,“people will forget what you did.
People will forget what you said,

(03:52):
but they will never forgethow you made them feel.”
- Yeah.
And my students printed this off,printed it off,
and then had all of the studentswrite on there how I made them feel.
And like I said, oh, man,I hope I don't cry a ton this episode, but,
it was - continues to besomething that just warms my heart

(04:14):
and means so, so much to me because,
it's something that I really, really careabout in all of my interactions, right?
That, like, not just my students.
But, you know,the person I meet at Walgreens,
like that just happened last night, right?- Oh, yeah.
That I can make them feel like,loved and seen and supported. So.

(04:37):
It just - it just really,really, warms my heart.
And I tear up a little bit every timeI see it, and I think about it and,
Thank you to Amber’s students.
Thank you.
She will always rememberhow you made her feel.
Exactly, exactly.
And that is,
one, like,
really tangible thing that I'll continueto look at and remember.

(05:00):
So. Yeah.
So that's bringing me joy.
Even though - tears. These are tears of joy.
Oh, that's so good.
- Yeah.- I know how much you loved your students.
And, you know, having worked with studentsfor many years, also like,
sometimes you don't knowthe impact that you make on them
because they get done with your classand they, they leave.
So them putting that effort in for you,that brings me joy, too, like,

(05:21):
thank you, studentsfor sharing that love with my friend.
Yes. Yeah.
It was really very, very special.
So thank you. Thank you students.
- Aw. - Yeah.
All right.
Well, we have a great show ahead of you,
listeners and viewers.
So, our starting topic,

(05:42):
is, something that, people ask meabout a lot, actually, the,
our kind of headline,and it'll probably be
the title of the episodeis that diverse people
bring diverse perspectives.
Another way to frame this is kind of like,what are some of the benefits,
and positivesabout having diversity in a workplace,
in a work group and, and so on.

(06:04):
And then, we're also gonna talk aboutmaybe some challenges
that can arise in that realm. But,
we didn't say ahead of time who'sgoing to go first, but, you know
why is diversity beneficial,you think, to …?
To spaces? I mean, yeah, again it --
diverse people bring diverse perspectives.

(06:25):
There's so many parts to what that meansand how that looks.
- Yeah.
I mean having that really helps itenhance creativity.
We see increased innovation
when you have folks from differentlived experience.
We talked about lived experienceswhen we had Nicki on.
But really different lived experiencesand different perspectives

(06:46):
gives a totally different,
a more robust understanding of whateveryour workplace surrounds.
Right?
Whatever issues or whatever thingthat you work with, having somebody
from a different angle, a different lens,
truly adds to a much larger picture.

(07:07):
It's like,
what is the there's an old like,wives tale or saying about,
you know, having a bunch of blind folksor blindfolded people
touching an elephant, right?
And that they all are sayingsomething totally -
describing something totally different.
But when you put all ofthose perspectives together,
you're going to get something, again,something more nuanced.

(07:31):
Because if we try to describe the elephant
just from one person's perspective,you're only getting
the foot versus the trunk versusall of these pieces.
So how can how can we maximize- I don't like using the word capitalize -
but like maximize havingmultiple perspectives so that you can get
a fuller, a more full picturethan just from one perspective.

(07:55):
- Absolutely.
So again, that helps with that and helpswith creativity and innovation.
Yeah.
And the kind of blind manand the elephant idea
also helps with like catching problems.
So this is long ago now for our listeners.
But back in season onewhen we talked about bias in healthcare,
we talked about the pulse ox. - Yes.
Right? So this is a machine that kind of measuresoxygen in the blood through your skin.

(08:18):
And turns out it doesn't workwell if you have darker skin,
it gives incorrect readings.
And and what we said then andand bringing it back now is, you know, well,
if there was a darkerskinned person in the room …
- Right, right.
… they would have caughtthat problem sooner
because testing it on that personwould have revealed the problem.
- Right.
And that's trueboth for very physical, like,

(08:40):
tactile things like that,
but also these differentperspectives we're talking about.
They can see problems that mightarise from a different angle and so on.
And you mentioned creativity.
So there's a whole scientific literatureon creativity.
Where does it come from? What is it?
How do we get more of it?That kind of thing.
And kind of a fundamental definitionof creativity is kind of combining ideas

(09:00):
in a different way.- Yeah.
And having peoplewith different perspectives,
which - we are generally talkingabout racial diversity,
sexual orientation diversity, gender,all those kinds of things -
but it can also be, you know, growing upin the country versus the city,
- 100%.
because everything about our lifeexperiences crafts how we see the world.
And so when we're tackling a problemtogether, us seeing it different ways

(09:22):
helps us solve it better.
And this isn't just
rhetoric and platitudes about,
“oh, diversity is great!”Science shows this!
- Right!
That when you pull togetherpeople with different perspectives
they have more innovativeand transformative solutions to problems.
This is something that the NationalInstitutes of Health, the NIH, has
recognized and recognized the scienceand in some of their literature

(09:45):
and their calls for diversifyingthe scientific workforce
this is what they say,that transformative scientific advances
come from teamsthat think in different ways.
- Right.
We don't have new advances in science,
in research from everyonethinking the same way
everyone's always been thinking, becausethen what's transformative about it?

(10:06):
- Exactly. Yep.
Having different perspectives resultsin more innovation,
more creative problem solving.
And, I know we don't,you know, like the “capitalizing” word,
- Yeah. - but also more money.
So there are research studiesthat corporations with more diversity
in their upper managementend up making more money.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.

(10:27):
Right before talking about this,
you were talking about the pulse oxand having diversity in the room.
And it reminds me of,Loni Love from “The Real”.
She's an actress and comedian.
And on the show “The Real”.
And she often talks about,“where was Jamal the intern
when these decisions are being made?”

(10:50):
And specifically was
in reference to like,I don't know, a few years back
H&M had put out this advertisementfor their new kids clothing, and they had
a picture of a Black child in a shirtthat said, “coolest monkey in the jungle.”
- Oh, geez.
And obviously people

(11:11):
were quite upset,understandably and justifiably so.
And again,was that the intent of the organization?
Maybe somebody had thoughtthat it would be funny.
But if there was just -
if there was enough people in the space
and we're going to talk a little bitabout inclusion and belonging later,

(11:32):
but if there were enough peoplein that space that felt like
they could say something,or that there was somebody
in the space that did say something,maybe we would have,
you know,
avoided something
something that was really hurtfuland harmful to a community,
but also harmful to the organizationand to their own
if we were talk about capitalism,their own pocketbook and their money

(11:55):
and just the the reputationof the organization on the whole,
it was from 2018 is when it was.Yeah.
- When that shirt was.
And one thing I want to draw attentionto, and kind of underline, for ourselves

and for our listeners (12:06):
Right now we're talking about diversity
and the value of diversityfor kind of utility of the organization.
And I want to be clearthat, you know, that's,
that's one thing to talk about.And I do believe in those things.
I think they're important and wonderful.
But we don't want to think of diversityjust in terms of utility.

(12:27):
“Why it's good for the bottom line,”or “the creativity,”
also, it's just the right thing to doin terms of morale.
And just like we want everyoneto have opportunities and,
to kind of correct, pastcultural inertia, for instance.
- For sure!
So sometimes when we talk aboutthe utility, people are like, well,
“it should just happenbecause it's the right thing.”

(12:48):
And we absolutely believe that, of course.- 100%.
And, and I sit with that a lot.
Oh. Nice catch.
(Both laughing)I just tossed my pen!
He just tossed his pen andcaught it with the other hand.
It was impressive.On accident.
I think.
But, you know, I think that it's -I often talk about that, that like,
I might have mentioned it prior as well,
but that we want people

(13:11):
to want to do the right thingbecause it's the right thing.
And,
and I hope that eventually the heartand the mind follows
sometimes its behavior firstand sometimes, sometimes it's getting them
or speaking the language of what'sgoing to get them motivated.
And when it comes to organizations,when it comes to workplaces

(13:33):
and spaces, oftenwe have to use the language of
- Utility.
utility and motivation and, and moneyin order for corporations to say
or organizationsand work spaces to say,
“okay, here's how and why …
- Right.
… we need to do this.”
Yeah, absolutely.

(13:54):
And kind of related to this,so we're talking about
kind of the organizational level.
But I also want to kind of talk directlyto quote unquote diverse people.
You know, the unique perspectivethat each and every one of us,
each and, and each and every one of you
listening, you have a unique perspectivethat you're bringing to the table.
No one can fully copy or imitate that.

(14:17):
And, you know, I rememberwhen I was a young graduate student,
there's kind of this ideain science of
being worried that someone'sgoing to “scoop you.”
Like that, “oh, I have some creative research idea,and I've got a, you know, finish the project
and get it published before someone elsefigures out this great thing.”
And scoops you. And like,I think that was encouraged
a little by some things inmy training environment.

(14:39):
But one thing thatI eventually came to was, you know what?
Even if someone publishes a research studythat's kind of similar to mine,
they haven't gone on the exactsame journey.
I have to understand this phenomenon.
They haven't read exactlythe same things I have,
connected itto real world examples.
So even if someone publishessomething maybe first,

(14:59):
my perspectivewill still be something new,
even if the research findingsare kind of the same.
- Yeah.
And maybe I'll be betterat the theoretical analysis behind things.
- Yeah. Yeah.
Because, there's so many ideas out therethat just kind of - that have been recycled,
many times or replicated -like replication is another important part

(15:20):
of the scientific process.
And maybe your replication is, you know,the data are essentially the same
because someone got their first,
but all your discussionof what comes after
and what the implications arecan be different
and can even be informedby the thing that came before you.
And I'm going a little on a tangent there,but, you know,
no one will have your perspectiveon things.

(15:43):
Exactly. And, you know, we talk a lot about,you know, broadening your input
and broadening your perspective.
And like, okay, in academia,when I was teaching,
I would talk about like, “okay, here's yourtheoretical orientation,” let’s say,
which is your approach to therapy.
- Yeah.
And a lot of the traditionaltherapeutic approaches and therapies

(16:06):
are from a very singularWhite male perspective.
Right?
That doesn't mean
you need to get rid of cognitivebehavioral therapy, let's say. Right?
Or or psychodynamic therapyor psychoanalytic.
But we can say like, “how do we think of CBT?
How do we think of psycho analysisor a psychodynamic work

(16:27):
from a Black perspective,from an indigenous perspective,
from a European perspective?
What are other voices?
How are other voicesand other perspectives
looking at the same thingand utilizing it?
Maybe in another way.”
Dare I say, “both/and”?
Both/and! Right?- “Diverse Joy” bingo!

(16:51):
But the beautiful part ofthat is again remembering like that
our voice, that our perspective,even if it's something that
has been talked aboutbefore, is important.
And one to like, expand other people's
understanding and
experience and, of diverse perspectives,
but also for people that arewithin your own identity to hear it from

(17:16):
somebody else's voice,somebody else that looks like them
and say like, oh, you know, again,representation matters, too.
Right?
Like hearing and seeing somebody,
like you writing, contributing tothose spaces,
is really important.
Absolutely.
And this reminds me of a really greatTED talk that I wanted to mention,

(17:37):
and we'll see if we can link itif it's still out there,
when we put this episode out, but,
it's from America Ferrera
who we love, right?
I love her, she is amazing injust about absolutely everything.
- Everything, yep.
But she had this great TED talk, and she'skind of walking through some topics
related to kind of diversity and diverseperspectives, especially her own,

(17:57):
and how she navigatedHollywood, you know, as a Latina.
And the kind of like
catchphrase or headline, is
your identity is your superpowerbecause no one else will have it.
No one else's will be exactly like yours.
And this is something that she kind ofuncovered and discovered with herself

(18:17):
that, kind of,
Eric Roman is giving us
the exact quote, love it.
The exact quote, “my identityis a superpower, not an obstacle.”
- That’s really good.
I love that.
And this relates to this kind of diversepeople bring diverse perspectives.
We all bring these superpowers.

(18:37):
And I just - it really felt good to mehearing her talk about that and,
and starting to try to think of thatin my life, because I definitely fell into
patterns of seeing, like these obstacleslike, “oh, you know, I'm gay.
I'm, you know,I've faced these kind of problems.”
And we're going to talk aboutsome of that later today.
Sometimes how - the way peoplereact to us being in spaces,

(19:02):
feels more like obstacles, but,
seeing them as a source of strengthand a source of
a unique perspective that no one else canpossibly have exactly my perspective.
Right, right.
And knowing that and finding strength inthat is really empowering for me.
Yeah.
And when we are startingto feel because, you know,
whether it's intentional, unintentional,or otherwise being in systems,

(19:26):
they, there -
there is this kind of push towardsthe default baseline.
Or like in order for us to accept you,we need you to look, act -
- Fit in.
Yep. Exactly.
Fit in. To look, act,
think, talk, speak in my language,and the way that I do things.
And so when we are feeling that

(19:48):
the internal kind of like, “oh, I'm,
outside of the norm” or
“I'm presenting an obstacle”
or “I'm creating a barrier” or whatever.
Or that --
- Losing part of myselfto be a part of this organization.
Right. Right!
Or that there's acommunication that
I’m presenting a barrierbecause I'm giving a different perspective

(20:11):
that to to reframe it,
to use a therapist word,
is to reframe it,
right, to reframe it for myselfand reminding myself,
or yourself that like,” no,my perspective is valid.
It is not an obstacle, it is a superpower.”
And this is - if our space can see us,see that voice, see what we're adding

(20:35):
as something that it can build off of
and not try to getaround or destroy or kind of,
kind of dismantle as an obstacle.
Man!
Again, if it's a superpower, whatbenefit the space will get from that?
As well as the fulfillment that we getin sharing, sharing that perspective, too.

(20:56):
Yeah. Absolutely.
And I think that that's startingto set us up for the kind of next
big point we wanted to make,which will also lead into story time.
But let's take a little breakand we'll be right back.
So welcome back from break.
And so one more big conceptthat is also going to pull us
into our next segment:

(21:16):
A phenomenon that happenswith kind of diverse people
in workplaces that wewanted to talk about.
And this is something called
“Pet to Threat.”
This was identified, and I want tomake sure I recognize the researchers,
by some researchers
in a paper published in 2013 called

“Women of Color at Midcareer: Going from Pet to Threat.” (21:36):
undefined
The authors were Dr. -
I assume they're all doctors. So Drs.
Kecia Thomas, Juanita Johnson-Bailey,
Rosemary Phelps, and Ny Mia Tran.
There’s this phenomenon,
especially identified with women of color,
but I think also happens -
I think it's happened to me -

(21:58):
but diverse folks or historicallyunderrepresented folks in general,
where, you know, an organization at firstis very interested in having them there.
Maybe they get trotted out as proof ofof the organization's diversity.
I've actually heard people say thingslike, “oh, we were really excited
to kind of have more diverse folksto kind of shake things up and,

(22:20):
and figure things out,”but that shaking things up
often turns into “rocking the boat.”
This is my little a little take on thethis phenomenon.
As diverse people come in,
they're bringing those diverseperspectives we're talking about.
At first it'sseen as this beneficial thing.
So this is the pet phase.
But also they aren't really,

(22:42):
fully respected for their abilitiesand their competence
and their professionalism and everythingthey're bringing to the table.
They're more treated like a pet, like,
“oh, look at us, we have this diverse person.”
And then over time,as those people try to kind of
make contributions,points out blind spots,

(23:03):
and, andso on, they start becoming a threat.
Because when you try to point outinequities, point out problems,
and we get those
people will get those frustrated feelingsthat we've talked about in
several episodes.
When you're breaking the cultural inertiaor cognitive inertia,
it turns into frustrated feelings.
And then people seethat person as a threat.

(23:25):
So they go from pet to threat;from shaking things up,
which is seen as something good,
to rocking the boat,which is seen as something bad.
Let me just say, when I first readabout this, I had to sit with it.
I was like,“oh, man, this has happened to me.”
- Yeah, yeah.
Well, and same!

(23:48):
I think the first time you mentioned
that, I, I also sat - I didn't,
I had never heard of the term beforeand you didn't even define the term.
All you said was “pet to threat.”
And immediately I stopped and was like,
“oh, this is this is this is it this is whatthat feeling is, this is what that is”

(24:08):
and immediately felt and knew intuitivelyexactly what that was.
And, and I think interestingly,you know, about this pet to threat,
that it can happen in these -- over time, right?
Like you're coming in, you're beingtouted as like, “oh yay! We are doing,
you know, diversity.
We're doing diversity

(24:28):
because we have this new diverse voiceand diverse representation.
And oh, well, they're going to
we're going to put them on every committeeand we're going to put them in -
We want their voicein every single thing that we do.
We want all of these things.”
And then over time kind of feelinglike again, going back to the obstacle
or the barriers or the defense

(24:48):
that comes when those voices are shared,and are maybe not in alignment
with where the organization thoughtthat they were going or wanted to go.
And then kind of the systematic
removal of responsibilities
or kind of pigeonholinginto narrower and narrower, uh …

(25:10):
- Putting someone quoteunquote, in their place.
Putting them, putting them - reminding them of what their --
where their place is is how we often,particularly as women of color,
get you know,being reminded of our place and --
- Get put in a corner.
Putting Baby in a corner!
There's all the things.
That, like again.
So that can happen over the overtime. Right?

(25:30):
Where at first they throw youinto every single thing
and then all of a sudden startsaying like, “oh, maybe not this anymore.”
Like, “oh, we're going to givesomebody else an opportunity for that.”
And like, over timeto even in the conversation.
Right.
Like it can happen in a moment too,of like, “oh, we want your perspective.”
You share your perspective
and then there's immediate defense on

(25:53):
sharing what you've been asked to share.
Yeah. And --
(Choking up sounds)
Oh. Excuse me.
I'm choking up a little now.
And part of - part of this iswhen do you get trotted out?
- Right. - And so,
I mean, I can think of onespecific instance of this
where an organizationI was a part of got criticized for

(26:17):
lack of racial diversity.
And they pointed to me and went,“oh, well, Will should talk about this.”
Not because I'm an expert in all that,
but because of my mixed race background,which also, I'm a White guy.
(Both laughing)
Like, I mean, I am.I have a mixed ethnic background,
but it was like, “oh, now we want tobring him to the front because we --”
- Now you get to be ethnic.

(26:37):
Yes, exactly.
“Wer’e worried about this criticismsomeone's levied so
oh, but no, Will doesn't look it but,”and it was,
you know in the moment I was like well.
Er?
Like it was unexpected.
I didn't realize I would have to come upand speak for not just my own experience.
But then I was speakingfor people of color in this org.

(26:57):
- Right!
I mean, I as a scientistcan say some things, but it it's like
“you're pulling me out of the cornerto show off diversity” or what have you
and then… - Right.
And there are those timesand moments where organizations, again,
you know, I like to give benefit,you know, where --

(27:19):
Yeah, benefit where it needs to be thatit’s not always necessarily intentional.
But these times where you areput in a corner for
if I speak from personal experience,providing my
if I like I said before,my Black ass voice, right,
my Black voice.
But like here, these are the timeswhere we don't want that necessarily.

(27:42):
But, “oh no,
diversity issue!
So … where is Amber?”
Oh, like “go talk to Amber ”or “Amber,what's your perspective on this?
Or can you speak to this?This thing came up.
Can you talk to them about it?”
Well, okay.
But also part of bringing - andwe'll talk about it a little bit later -

(28:03):
but, bringing in diverse voicesin spaces is so
that everybody can start to adoptand understand why that's important
and not only having mebe the one having to do that
and being the one to, to speak on it,even when I have maybe experienced times
that you've told meexplicitly not to talk about it

(28:25):
and not to talk about this experience.
And now I have this, like you know,
tension with
being asked to speak outwhen behind closed doors
I'm told not to speak up.- Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it kind of goesinto our stories a little bit.

(28:46):
Right?- Yeah, let's go to story time.
Story time!
This is going to be a verydifferent sort of story time.
Yeah. Yeah.
It is a different story timebecause normally we have like a negative
and a positive story,really explicit and specific example.
And as we were prepping for this,for the podcast today,
for this particular episode,we're both sharing our experiences

(29:08):
and our stories of specific examples of
- Pet to threat.
Pet to threat, both instantaneous,in the moment ones, over time things.
- Yeah.
How our, you know, reputation and
things were attacked.That can really linger
for a really long timefrom some of the things and in it

(29:31):
we both kept
wrestling with whether or notto share them because,
there's still a fear,
of retaliation inor speaking out or naming those things.
And, um …- And for better or worse, we're,
somewhat public figures, so to speak.

(29:51):
I mean, it's kind of weird to callourselves that but,
- Right. Yeah.
but, I mean, this is - we're speakingto the public, this is a podcast and
some of the people whomaybe are connected to or involved
with our pet to threat storiesmight listen and might take offense or
and so we,
let's, let's say let's,

(30:12):
we want to tell you story time happened.
It was off mic.- Yes, it happened!
We collectively decided that we wouldrather talk about how we can't talk
about some thingsbecause of this kind of pet to threat,
not only us being seen asthreats to others
who want to have this idea of a diverse,accepting, inclusive academy

(30:34):
or organization, and also the threat to us
that we’re left with;it leaves a mark on us.
- Right.
And, one thing I will say about mine,
there's a - I don't know, meme-y kind of quote,
which is that, you know,if someone's talking about you,

(30:55):
negatively,the people who believe it or the people
who wanted to believe it anyway.
And with my experience,I want to say that I had several people -
anyone who knew me well kind of didn'treally give any credence
to the negative stuffthat my pet to threat people had -
like, I had people come to melike, “this is some bullshit.”

(31:16):
- Yeah.
And so that also relatesto our last episode where, like,
finding your communityand the kind of SAFETY model, luckily,
you know, people who know you well knowyour strengths, know your values,
they're not going to be swayed by BS.
And, and we both, I mean,

(31:37):
I want to give lots of credit to
Dr. Kecia Thomas and her team,
and especially this being a phenomenathat was thought
of by women of color to characterizewomen of color's experiences.
But also for me,not being a woman of color,
it spoke to me so much,
and they identify it as something that ispushing women of color out of academia.

(31:58):
- Yup.
And, they go more intoentrepreneurial spaces.
And speaking at least for myself,I mean, that that was a huge part
of what has happened with me.
And I founded our nonprofit, andI don't see that as a step down or anything.
I am actually invigorated by it.
I love the work we do and the impacts -I think I’m making much more impact

(32:19):
then if I'd stayed within thestrict colonized,
academic, space,I'm able to do better and more things.
So I don't see it as a step down, but Idefinitely see this idea of pet to threat.
It - I mean, it hurts!It hit me where it counts.
And it is rough.

(32:40):
And we talked earlierthis season about decolonizing.
We keep - this is probably a new “DiverseJoy” bingo item - like part of decolonizing
is being a threat
to the existing system,seeing it in a positive way or being a
a voice to give new ideas that sayingthat there's a different way we can do it.
And people who had to come up throughthat system, that feels like a threat.

(33:04):
And it's not nice.
No. And,
yeah, I think that going backthat like this really
in the larger scheme of
a specific work place or a space
in which it's happening, experiencingthat threat and the threat to,

(33:24):
like I said, your reputation,
threat to your career.
Academia,like you said, is a really big one where,
folks of color, marginalized,
and again, we're seeing statisticallythe number of BIPOC folks
that are just leaving academia in droves.

(33:47):
And, you know, regardless of my ownbackground, like feeling my own
personal experience of feelinglike I'm contributing to that,
that, that, that, statistic of,also having left academia.
And now, you know, again,sitting in this space of talking through
multiple stories and various spaces,

(34:10):
of pet to threat, that that threat,
being so
real and so visceral right nowand how deeply,
and maybe not for everybody, but,
how deeply it really can --
Excuse me.

(34:31):
It's okay.
Don't apologize for tears.
Yeah.
It can really hit your
sense of self, right?
Because,
you know,you're trying to share your perspective,
your lived experience or opinion,

(34:51):
and now all of a sudden it is being
attacked and personalized, right?
- Yeah.
It's not just about the thing
that you're saying,but all of a sudden it's about
the who of who you are.
And sitting in -
and I appreciate that quote about that
the people that matter and care, right?

(35:12):
And the ones that are going to
believe that are the ones that wantedto believe it in the first place.
And I think it's a helpful perspective,
and it can be really hard to hold on towhen you're going through it.
Oh, absolutely.
And having to be able to step back andsay, it's okay.
It's okay if,
some people
believe this and not everybodyand not everybody's going to like you

(35:35):
and not everybody's going to like meand that people
are going to have different perspectivesof you and me.
And reminding yourself of that
and reminding yourself of those that,
that know you, that know you, who you are,
that know your character,
that they will see throughwhatever anybody has said about you.

(35:57):
- Absolutely.
And, and again, I think that there'sa piece of also just being okay that
there might be a perspective out therethat doesn't align with your --
- Who you are.
Who you are, or who you want to beand who you strive to be in spaces.
And coming to that acceptancecan be challenging.

(36:20):
- Absolutely.
So, I mean, we've, as you said,we've both experienced
this kind of in a momentwhere you go from pet to threat in
one conversation, and over time.
And I mean,
one of my big experiences withthat was years ago.
And for years afterwards, some of the

(36:41):
rude, untrue thingsthat they said about me,
I, I would just be stuck.
Like, I'd would be ruminating on itlike we talked about last episode,
and I just wanted to crawl into bedand, like, never come out.
- Yep.
And I mean, it's not likeit was something they said on the news

(37:03):
that everyone in the world knows,but, but like when I, when I would try
to make moves to, to step forwardin my career to do something public -
I think I coped with thisby the time we started the podcast -
but if there was eversomething like the podcast
where I was going to be in the public eye,part of me was like,
“what if this one person who turned on me,what if they come forward

(37:24):
and say this bullshit?”
And I mean, there were provablyfalse things like, like
I told you that that professorswho were close to me
came to me, were like,“we don't believe this stuff.”
But for like 1 or 2 of the thingsthey said, I was like, I can prove
this is false. And they were like,“we don't care.”
But I was like, “let me just show you.
I want you to.”- “For my my own sake.”
I want you to knowwithout a shadow of a doubt.

(37:45):
Yeah.
Without a shadow of a doubt.
That they are just
lying because they didn't like -I became a threat
to some of their established ideasand they (stumbling over words) -
But it just … Provably falsethings that just
broke me for such a long time.

(38:05):
Yeah.Well, and
I think that it pulls,pulls folks into and I'll say,
just in my own personal experience
that I found myself like traumadumping all the time. (Laughs)
- Yeah.- Right?
- Oh, God, yeah.- When somebody asked me a question or something
or like how I'm doing, like,it made it very hard for me

(38:28):
to just say, like,“you know, things are whatever.”
I just, like, became like,
“Oh, this thing happened,and then this happened, and this happened
and this happened and but but here'swhat my perspective is, and this is
what I was doing and blah blah blah.”
It was okay, I don't know if you'respecifically talking about me
because that happened.
But it was okay.
It happened to everybody!
I was there for you.

(38:48):
I mean, it broke my heart for you.
And I was - if I was able tooffer any small comfort.
- Yeah.- I hope I did, but it was okay.
And I,
- Yeah.
you're not the only one who's
ever experienced this.
Yeah, yeah.
I have been there and I know how it feels.
And screw them for doing that to you.

(39:10):
- Yeah.
You did nothing to deservesome of the stuff that happened.
Yeah.
Which, again, our story time is kind of,
we're telling the storyabout how we can't tell the story.
Right, right. Exactly.
Or have chosen not. - Have chosen not to.
But but, you were treated poorly.
You were treated in a mannerthat no one should should be treated.
Especially not for the positivethings that I know you were doing,

(39:34):
that someone took issue with.
Thank you.
And, and I mean, I'msure I don't know all the details,
but we've talked a lot,and I know, I know your heart and I know -
and going back to your joy,your students knew.
Your students were proud of you.
Yeah.
And loved everything you did for them.
Yeah. I appreciate that.

(39:55):
And I think in telling these storiesor even kind of talking
about the experienceof how deeply impactful,
pet to threat is, again,whether it's intended,
if anybody is intending to be
threatened by what you're sayingor intending it to be,

(40:16):
you know, a target of a, you know,an minoritized or oppressed group or not,
like the impact is so,
is so deep and meaningful or, you know,
meaning making whether it's positiveor negative or otherwise.
And, and I hope and, just sharingthe impact, not even the exact stories,

(40:39):
is meaningful for
other people who maybehave experienced that and,
and meaningful to see, like,yeah, you're not alone.
That this is a thing.
And it's okay that like it maybe wrecked you.
I mean, it's not okay that it wrecked youand that it impacted you so much -

(41:00):
It’s a human response.
but it is, it is it is a human response.
And it's one that I think thata lot of people who've experienced this
resonate with deeply.
And that's really our (Both) positive story!
Is sharing not necessarily just the
the stories themselves.

(41:22):
- The term.- But the term, pet to threat.
Yeah. And I want to thank,
Dr. Kecia Thomas and her teamjust for putting that out there.
I'm guessing because Dr. Thomaswas the first author that
it was written by -
but, that term, putting it out therein and of itself,
has been a healing actfor the both of us.

(41:42):
And the positive side of this,
this very different story,a very special story time, right.
(Both laughing)
Is that we've shared this with peopleand they've had the same reaction
that we each had.- Yeah.
Where they were just like,“oh.” like I actually
had someone grab their chest like I'mdoing for the people on camera, right? Like,
“Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense.
That has happened to me.”- Yeah.

(42:03):
So I've mentioned the the CSI groupI work with in Canada
and a lot of indigenous folksdoing, doing the good work.
And when I share that with them,
they kept telling these storiesabout themselves and about others
they know where it's like, “oh,they brought in someone,
diversity. Rah rah. Fireworks!
We love this person.
Oh, they're actually tryingto do something that might change

(42:25):
our establishment?”And then throwing them away like garbage.
And it was and like we just started
kind of saying to each other,we kind of snapped fingers and were like,
“Pet to threat!”, “Pet to threat!”That like identifying how this is such a,
a dark and awful thread that's woventhrough so many of our stories.
And I believe, you as well?

(42:45):
Yeah.
No, it's just countless times of me
sharing after you sharedthe term with me
and I was like, “oh, yeah, I oh, man, I canI don't even know.
I've never read any of this.
You're not even defining it for me.
But I just had to take that momentand breathe with it.”
And it was, you know,

(43:09):
and I've mentioned several times my,
my Psychology Today, “Catching your breathin the age of I can't breathe.”
But I think oftentimes when you'rein these moments, in these experiences
of pet to threat,it feels like you're holding your breath,
and feeling like you can't breatheand having a name,
having something really specific, to
like, call it, gives you, like,this moment of relief

(43:33):
and breath of, like,
there's a name for it.
Like, this is this.
I'm not crazy.
This isn't just in my head.
This is a real thing.
And it's not totally tangential, but,the show,
actually, there's two shows,and I'll let you talk about that one, but,

(43:53):
this show “Crazy Ex-girlfriend.”
Oh, yeah.
That's on our list of
shows to recommend sometime.
At some point!
I don't know if it’ll happen this season.
But. It's just really great.
And, at some point in one of the seasons,the main character gets a diagnosis
and I won’t go through all of what that was,but she has a whole song.

(44:16):
(Producer Eric) I love that song. - It's so great.
So the show itself, it follows - - Is a musical.
Is a musical, and it's amazing and quirkyand funny and all of the things.
But she finally gets diagnosedand she has a whole song
called “My Diagnosis” and -- She’s so excited.
She's so excited that finally she knowswhy she acts or behaves in certain ways.

(44:40):
And, man, there's a name for this.
I'm not alone.
There's a community,there's a treatment approach.
There's all of these things that come withjust knowing what it is.
And a lot of timespeople might think that having a diagnosis
or having a name makes it worse,but it actually makes it so much better.
Just the relief that I'm not the only onethat has experienced this thing.

(45:03):
- Absolutely.
Just being able to call it outfor what it is.
Having a name,
one take some of the power away from it.
The ambiguity, right?- The ambiguity of it.
Like, because I mean, with mineand a few of mine,
I was stuck sitting with, like, didI do something wrong?

(45:23):
- Right.
Like, because I truly want to growfrom my mistakes and,
like, I was like, “gosh, have I just been,
am I just completely off the wall,out of left field
like a bad person, a bad academic, bad --because I feel like I was doing
what I'm supposed to be doingand feel like I'm, I’m …
I thought I was making great contributions and,like, people appreciated what I was doing.”

(45:48):
And then it just blindsided me.
And I think maybeI took us on another tangent.
But like
questioning myself and the ambiguity,that's what got me on this.
Like, like, am I just -- like becausewhen they see you as a threat and start
treating you like a threat, you feel likeyou're some kind of monster.
- Right. 100%.
And it's like, “am I delusional?”- “Was this all wrong?”

(46:10):
“I thought I was doing somethingthat was positive?
I thought this was positive.
Maybe it wasn't positive. Like,maybe this is terrible.
Maybe I'm doing something totally --”
This is a very, very, very,very old example.
But when I was early in my gradschool, I got called arrogant once.
And it's so contradictoryto how I understand myself.

(46:30):
It still comes upas something
that I am very conscientious of, of likenever coming off as arrogant
but there was this pointwhere I was questioning myself, like,
“I don't know, do arrogantpeople know they're arrogant?
I don't - maybe I am arrogant!”You know?
but this like constant questioningand like, yeah.
I apologize for using the word “crazy,”but it's part of

(46:52):
that idea that crazy people don't knowthey're crazy.
Right. Right!
If you're even asking the question,then you're probably not.
Right.
But yeah, that that kind of the again,the ambiguity,
the questioning of yourself,the like not knowing, feeling like
you don't know yourself, like youthought you knew yourself.
And then questioning your own intentionsand the impact and all of that.

(47:14):
- Absolutely. So.- Yeah, yeah.
I'm sorry that you - thatwe have both gone through this.
Yours is a little more recent than mine.
Or but but yeah, but, we've both --
So our positive story is that this labelhas helped a lot of people,
us included, the indigenous folksI mentioned,
I've had some LGBT folkswho just you see that breath.

(47:37):
Like, “oooh.”- Yeah.
And you have with Black colleagues,I believe.
Same sort of thing.- Yeah, absolutely.
So there's a relief in having,having a name, knowing what it is,
being able to take some of that poweraway from it by calling it what it is.
And so, yeah,

(47:59):
I think we're on break.
Yeah.
Let's go on break.
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music by Jay Arner plays ]
Hey, everyone.
We now have “Diverse Joy” merchavailable for purchase.
There are “Diverse Joy” mugsthat are dishwasher and microwave safe.
Some really nice large tote bagsthat are great for grocery shopping,

(48:19):
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People are hungry for joy arounddiversity topics,
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(48:43):
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(49:04):
Now back to the show.
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music by Jay Arner plays ]
Welcome back from break.
One last little thingthat I want to give credit
to something that I already said,
the kind of people behind your backtalking about you.
You know,the people are going to believe it.
That was from an Instagramthat I really, really like.

(49:24):
And I'm going to call it outso that we can give her credit.
But then also talk about this other one.
And it's also a way tocheer us back up.
Yes. (Giggles)
So, the first Instagram account,it's @AStar4Real
And she's this fabulous, very poisedBlack woman.
And all of her Reels or Instagramvideos are things like that where

(49:47):
it’s a little kind of an inspirational quoteabout how, you know, you are strong,
you’re amazing.I know I've sent you some of hers.
There's another one that we really love.
It's something along the lines of
she says, you know,
“Don’t worry if someone's talkingabout you behind your back
because they are exactlywhere they belong.
They’re behind you.”

(50:08):
(Both laughing)
And she just has --so they're really fun.
So check out that Instagram accountif you're interested.
Another one that I just want to shout outbecause I was going to talk about these
two for for a different reason.
But is @AletheaCrimmins.
That's A-L-E-T-H-E-A-C-R-I-M-M-I-N-S

(50:30):
and we'll put the description,put these in the episode description
so you don't have to catch itright in the moment.
She's very similar.
Both of these are Black women by the,by the way, but very different energy.
So it gives you a little of diversityacross Black women, even. She's kind of -
and I'm gonna use the word bossy,
and I would advise people to be careful
using the word bossywhen referring to women - but
- Especially Black women.

(50:51):
I think this is, is is kind of her brand.
So if you're looking at your phone,you'll suddenly, like, see her on it
as you're scrolling through.
And she's kind of she slaps.
She slaps the phoneso it looks like she's inside
your phone, kind of knocking on it like,“hey, what are you doing?”
And she's very kind of assertive.
Is also a better word than bossy,
telling you about how beautiful you are,how wonderful, how special.

(51:12):
Like, “hey, don't listen to the haters.
Hey, hey, you you there - quit,
quit being in your head about stuff.
You are wonderful. You are beautiful.”
And she has her little tagline:
“Have a good day on purpose.”
Oh oh, I love that!- Right?
“Have a good day on purpose.”
Oh, she is amazing.
That’s so good.
And inspirational.

(51:32):
And both of these two accountsI mentioned are inspirational and,
in different ways.- Yep.
And so even if you follow them bothand I highly advise it,
we'll put links in the episodedescription,
it gives you a little bit of diversityacross Black women.
Very calm, poised, and very in your face.
And both beautiful,wonderful, amazing accounts.
I love that. I love that!

(51:54):
They were therapeutic for me
through all of this kind of stuff.
Yeah.
And whenever it pops back up, I, like,go to one of their accounts, and
I just let their wonderful platitudesand inspirations inspire me.
Yes, yes.
And you have sharedseveral from both of them,
and I know they have -
I've just started following themand it's been very inspirational.

(52:14):
So it's been really,really great to have them.
So you get a little bonusjoyful recommendation.
A little extra sumthing sumthing.- Yeah.
So with that like
oh yeah, it's our the question time, right?
It’s our question! - Great.
All right.
So our question actually,
as with everything in our podcast,we always try to bring back the positivity.
Like, what do we do better?- Yeah.

(52:35):
And so we crafted our well,our question actually came from
an audience member.Please submit those questions
at DiverseJoy.com.
But, you know,
we talked in our very first episodeabout all these acronyms out there.

So we love JEDI (52:49):
Justice, Equity, Diversity, Inclusion.
But new ones have been popping up.
So DEI tends to be the farthest reaching.

And some places have added a letter (52:58):
B. DEIB - B is for belonging.
Yeah.
And really that whole kindof pet to threat thing
it grows out of
whose perspectives are respectedand who belongs in a space.
And I think this idea that women of colorespecially and I'm going to

(53:20):
add myself and people, LGBT folks,you know,
when they try to rock the boat
or shake things up, their perspectivesaren't respected as much.
And that is why these thingsbecome threats.
They don't have this kind of belonging.
And so the questionwhich I'm longwinding right now:
so what's the differencebetween inclusion and belonging?

(53:41):
What is the importance of belonging?
And I'm gonna look to Amberto start the answer.
And so Amber, whatcha think?
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, again, you know, I think -
I think at one pointwe talked about kind of the,
the goalposts being moved, like,“oh, we finally, okay,
well we did diversity.”And then like “Well, diversity is not enough.

(54:01):
We have to have equity.”
And then “we have diversityand equity is not enough.
We have to have people that are included.”Right?
- Right.- And then and now we're adding B.
And, and I think it'sbecause as, as organizations and spaces
start to try to do thiswork, you're seeing the gaps or holes
or misses or oversights, you know, in,

(54:24):
in doing this work in a deep and real way.
And I think, you know,inclusion is absolutely important.
We have to have inclusion.
And inclusion really is, about ensuring
that everyone has a seat at the table
and is empowered to contribute
to the space. Right?Is empowered to share their voice.

(54:45):
The difference between just thatwhich is important to have
belonging, is about ensuring that everyone
at the tablefeels comfortable, accepted and valued
for who they areand what they bring.
And both are importantin order to do this work well.

(55:07):
If I were to say “right”. Right?
If we want to say that this is comingfrom a truly, deeply valued place,
then you --
being able to have both, being able tohave something that is not just
including me at the table, not just letting memy say what I want, but

(55:28):
that's really tied to thepet to threat phenomenon
is being able to say like,
“I'm valued and I can be comfortable
in sharing this perspective,”then I'm not going to be attacked
for sharing and giving my voiceand being part of this.
But that I'm valued, that I'm listened to.

(55:50):
Not that every single timeI say something,
we're going to go with my opinion.
And my voice is not the --
It's not the flip of saying, like
“Only your voice matters.”
But that your voice mattersjust as much as everybody else.
It is valued. That there isspace in room and safe
for you to share who you areand what you are in this space.

(56:14):
And, and I think that that's reallywhat it means to create
a truly equitable andsupportive space, work space.
And, you know,I'm going to shout out an organization.
So one of the organizations
that I was part of or havebeen part of
is Interprofessional Primary CareInstitute in Oregon,

(56:34):
and the leader is,her name is Julie Oyemaja.
Hey, Julie girl!
She - well, first of all,they retweet everythying,
they’re super, super supportive.
- Of the podcast?- Of the podcast.
Oh, thank you!
And of me, of us, of the work
she works very,very hard to do the work well.
And that was one of my roles there

(56:56):
was the first timeI really had heard the idea of DEIB
and she asked meto be the director of diversity,
and then it shifted and shifted,and she's like, “no, actually, we want to
forefront belonging, not just inclusion.”
And that came from her work, but also,work with another, another organization

(57:17):
called the Relate Lab, at Oregon HealthSciences Institute, University.
And they do leadership,
relational leadership trainingsand that’s a lot of what they emphasize.
So it's something that I -out of interactions with these folks -
it wasn't even my - it wasn't my idea,
it didn't come from me.
But like these other organizationsin the spaces saying like,

(57:39):
“hey, actually, there's more to this.”
And I was like, you're absolutely right.
I think I've always strived for that.
Like, you know, creating a senseof belonging more than just inclusion, but
having again, giving it words, giving itand for fronting it as the value.
Yeah.
And when you first brought it up as an ideafor the question or a topic for us to

(58:00):
talk about, I kind of had a,
I kind of pulled back fromthe idea because it felt like
kind of moving the goalposts,which I always try to be cautious about.
So like,
well, diversity is supposed to be
having the people at the table.- Right.
And then inclusion,
well, that's having people at the table.
And then you know, belonging.
It is a form of doing inclusion well,
I think, but it's notthat we're kind of changing the goal

(58:22):
so much as we're finding better waysto emphasize
and communicate what it iswe're looking for and striving for.
- Right.
Because like,
you know, there was a time when
our bias habit-breaking training
people were like, “well, it'sjust about reducing bias
it's not about creating inclusion.”Because we didn't have the word.
And I was like,“no, it's about creating inclusion as well.”
Because if you're reducing bias,
you're better able to communicate,you're better able to welcome.

(58:44):
And definitely my antenna went upwhen you were like “belonging now.”
And I was like, “oh, do I have to change?
Does our training also do belonging?”
And it's like, that is a part of it,
because if you're engaging deeplywith these skills that we talk
about every episodeand wanting to do better and,
and do that, thenbelonging is part of what you're building.
And so by putting the B for

(59:05):
for some organizationsor at least talking about it,
it’s highlighting one of the many facetsof good diversity work,
- Yeah.
which includes reducing bias, creatinginclusion, enhancing belonging,
and so on.
So at the end of this episode,I'm going to say like
I do it every episode,you know, our organization,
I’m going to talk about it as reducing bias,creating inclusion, and promoting equity.

(59:28):
And I think belonging is there in spirit,even if I'm not changing the words.
- Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
It is.
And again, it's just a it's a way of,
externally
signaling or holdingholding the institution, holding
a space accountable to this value, right? Of explicitly saying it.

(59:51):
And it is a way, it is -maybe not a byproduct,
but it is a byproduct of doing equityand inclusion well,
is the result is belonging.- Yeah.
That those that are part of the institutionwill feel like they belong.
- You know, it could be -
so we talk about equity and equality.

(01:00:12):
You know, addressingequity is the way we reach equality.
So maybe doing inclusion and equitywell is the way we can try to reach
for belonging.
Does that do…? Does that analogy workwith how you're thinking of it?
I think so.
- Yeah.- Yeah, yeah, I think so.
One last bit.
So there was this --After Amber first
kind of brought this upand I was kind of like,
“I don't know if we’re… are we just movingthe goalposts?” Like, or what, but,

(01:00:35):
Amber won me over, of course.
But also I ran --just to keep talking about Instagram, apparently -
I was never -- I'm a little too old for Instagram,
is how I always felt,
but since the podcast,I had to start getting into it
because we have our Instagram account
so I started postingand then I would log in to see
how are people likeyour posts or following our Instagram.
And so now I'm a standard Instagrammillennial.

(01:00:56):
- Right.
But there was a quote from Brené Brownand the, the thrust of it that we want

that I wanted to share, is: “what is the opposite of belonging?” (01:01:02):
undefined
And, people think the oppositeof belonging is not belonging.
- Right.
But what she says and discusses is
“the opposite of belongingis fitting in”
and that really highlightedwhat you're talking about for me.

(01:01:22):
So fitting in is,you know, making yourself fit with what
the mold alreadyis, the colonialism or colonization
or that term we talked about earliernot becoming a threat.
I mean, and hopefullyyou won't become a threat
because you're in an organizationthat values your perspective,
but not being willing to shake things upbecause you're
just going to fit into the spacethat's already made.

(01:01:44):
- Not making waves.Yeah.
Which isn't necessarily made for youif you're from a different
kind of background than has historicallybeen in an organization,
like forcing yourself to, quote, fit inis the opposite of belonging,
whereas belonging is the organization,the people wanting you
with your strengths and your differencesand your perspectives.

(01:02:05):
And I thought that was really beautiful.
- Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Yeah, I think that thinking about itin that way, the
the opposite of belonging is fitting in,which means letting go.
Right.
Cutting yourself to fit. Right?To, you know,
you know, shaving off the
edges that might look differentor be different in order to fit the mold.

(01:02:26):
So yeah, I love that. Well, thank you.
I think that was really
I think there's a lot therewhen we can talk a lot about inclusion,
belonging, diversity,all, all of the things.
But how about our skill?
What's our skill for today, Will?
All right; our habit-breaking skill is one that
I'm excited to share.
And it's, quite simply to track the data.

(01:02:49):
The skill is tracking the data.Track the data.
And what this is, is with regardto all of the above:
Diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity.
How do we know what kind of progresswe're making on it?
Well, we need to look at the data.
This can be interms of things like hiring.
It can be climate if there areclimate surveys or things,
like, how much belongingare people feeling? And so on.

(01:03:11):
And you know,make sure you're doing those things
with good kind of survey methodologyand so on.
And I'm going to sharejust a few concrete examples.
So one of our huge research studiestesting our bias habit-breaking training,
showed a result, wherethere was an increase in hiring of women.
So, so one of our big things,
we had a huge randomized controlled studywere academic departments, in the sciences

(01:03:33):
and medicine, got our trainingor served as control groups.
And one of the big problems in thesciences is underrepresentation of women.
And if you track the data,
throughout out kind of careers,
for gender at least,
we're starting to reach gender equitywith who's graduating with PhDs.
So more and more women.
Not every area of sciencebut in many to most areas of science,

(01:03:56):
we're starting to get to the point where,the people graduating with PhDs are about
50% women, which is what you expectif equity is being addressed.
But, in the data that we had,
at this big universitywhere we did the study,
the new tenure track faculty.
So people after their PhD,who are getting hired

(01:04:17):
as new professors,we're only about 32% women.
So that's where, by tracking data,we were able to identify it’s
this juncture pointwhere, where a problem could be addressed.
And so we did this hugerandomized controlled study.
I already said that part,
where some departments got our trainingor randomly assigned to be controls.
And we looked at the hiring datafor the two years after the training

(01:04:38):
and the two years before.
Two years beforewas what I already said, about 32% women
in both the control and training departments.
In the two years after,
the control departments, theirnew hires were still about 32% women.
But the departments that had our training,their new hires were 47% women.
- Wow.
So right up there at around the 50/50,which is what you would expect

(01:05:00):
if you've been successful
at rooting out biases and inequitiesand creating more, more equity.
So that was -- it isstatistically significant,
that amounts to a
43% increase in hiring of women.
And the real women had jobs.
Like, sometimes it's so easyto get caught up in the numbers.
And these are realpeople who got jobs, were hired

(01:05:20):
as science professors at one of the topuniversities in the world.
And so we were tracking the databecause it was a research study.
But companies and organizationsshould be doing this internally.
And the pet to threat idea,one of the main points is that it pushes
women of color, especially,out of organizations, because they just
they're treated like a threat.
They're treated poorlyand they just can't do it anymore.

(01:05:43):
And so that's something thatyou can start to see
if you're tracking data appropriately,like who's leaving?
When are they leaving?Why are they leaving?
- Right.
Go ahead.
It's really important, too, to think about
tracking the data
in a variety
of different waysand not kind of like a composite.
Right?
Because I think in one, in one spacethat I was

(01:06:06):
they lookedat kind of composite scores or like,
how many, let's say, just to make it easy,
all how many BIPOC are here? Right?
And they looked at the total numberand not necessarily
the retention rates of the same people,right?
Is this the story

(01:06:26):
you told before where they said,“technically we’re good on Black people”?
Technically, right. Right!
So we maintainedthe number of BIPOC folks, but we weren't
looking at like - or retained the number -but not retaining individuals.
Right?
And if we wanted to do the work right,and, well,
then you're going to be looking at morethan just the overall number.
You’re going to be looking at like,“how well have I kept

(01:06:49):
these same people?”- Yes. Yes.
Excellent.
And, and so with regard to
our research study,so my colleagues and I are still tracking
because those women got hired,but do they stay?
Did they stay? Right. Exactly.- Do they reach tenure? Right.
Right. Yeah.
And so, you know,it takes time to have this kind of stuff
so we still have to wait and see. - Yep.
But I also want to mention,so with that, we,

(01:07:11):
we know from broader data, like I wassaying, women are graduating with PhDs
at roughly equivalent rates and not again,not all, but many.
But we also wantedto look at people of color.
And, you know, there were just so few
people of color, statisticallywe couldn't even say anything.
And when you look broader at the data,people of color are not graduating with PhDs.

(01:07:33):
And here we were talking aboutwhat, underrepresented folks.
So Asian and Whitefolks are overrepresented in the sciences
relative to the broader population, Blackand Brown folks underrepresented.
And there are just so few Blackand Brown folks graduating with PhDs,
we couldn't be expected for our trainingto see any effect on that,
because there aren'teligible people to consider.
So it's also nota failure of our training.

(01:07:54):
And I'm not just trying to say“our training is oh so great,”
although it is.
But but but it's it's just likewell there wouldn't even be an opportunity
to hire significantly more Black folksor Brown folks
because they're not even getting PhDs
at a rate where we couldmake a big change.
- Right.
So then we have to look earlierin the pipeline.

(01:08:15):
And so only by tracking the datacan we identify where the problem is.
The problem is we need to be bringingand making science more inviting
really at the undergraduateand even at the high school level,
is what the data say.
And so, you know, that's particular to me,being in the sciences and academics.
But wherever you are, your company,your organization,

(01:08:36):
you are the best equipped personto know what some of those data are.
Maybe not everything.
Consult with people who maybe knowmore than you.
But, do you work with customers?
So what kind of customers are gettingbrought in?
What kind of customersare staying with your organization?
What kind of customers are you?Are you losing or bleeding out?
And then that can help you identifywhere you should be applying
some of these skills we've been teachingyou, is it with getting,

(01:08:59):
people of color or LGBT folks,whatever group to come as customers?
So then that's an advertisingor outreach problem.
Is it you're getting themand they're like, “nope.”
So then that's something about howthey're being treated or what have you.
Same thing with employees.
So what kind of employeesare you recruiting?
What kind of employees are you hiring?
Which kind of employees are staying?
So again, to Amber’s point on retention,

(01:09:22):
and so on.(Chuckles)
So no one knows your organizationsbetter than you.
We're outsiders to - well,
some of you are in organizationswe've been in, but uh,
but for any contextwhere you've been working somewhere
for a while, you know,what are the important ins and outs

(01:09:43):
better than we can, but by tracking dataon some of this stuff,
you're going to be better ableto identify the areas for improvement,
areas where you're doing well and you wantto keep doing well and, and so on.
But too often, I work with companiesand they’re like, “well, we have a problem.”
And I'm like, “well, what's the problem?”
It's like, “you know, we'renot doing diversity well.”

(01:10:03):
And it's like, “what does that mean?”- “What does…?” Yeah
At which --
What does that mean to you?
Yeah, like, “Well you know people are just sayingthat we haven't done enough.”
And it's likewell like we have to really get
a good picture of what's goingright and what's going wrong.
And so, tracking the dataand keep checking in on it.
You might be successful and then you wantto keep the success going.

(01:10:24):
So, so tracking data and this is truein therapy and stuff as well.
The tracking the data is keeping track of -
so if someone thinks,
“oh no one wants to be my friend,”you ask them the hypothesis test right?
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.You can do the hypothesis testing.
We also do like journal tracking and like,
you know, tracking our negative thoughtsor emotions, those kinds of things

(01:10:46):
that there's lots of waysof like kind of tracking
the data over time and seeing like,how often does this come up?
When do I feel this way?
Kind of uprooting,getting a better sense of where and why
and howwe're getting to these conclusions.
And other kinds of behavior changeas well, like dieting or exercise

(01:11:07):
or for me,like writing, writing my book,
which I was doing last year,you know, last year
I started to track, you know,how many words a day I'm writing,
how many hours I'm able to devote,so that I can see the progress I'm making.
And that helps keep you motiva--what did you call it?
Your to do list and?- Your to do list and ta da list.
Ta da list, yeah.- Ta da!
So the the victories, too.

(01:11:28):
It's not just reveling in the negativity.
It's that joy.- Right, absolutely.
But we knowfrom all kinds of behavioral science
that if people want to make a change,if they want to - like a diet
or all these kinds of things,tracking is a really strong tool.
- Absolutely.
If you do it, you can see where your progress is,see where you're falling behind.

(01:11:49):
And it's true of diversity,inclusion, belonging stuff as well.
Find the data, track the data.
That's your skill.
I love it.
And it reminds me too, of,
something we talked about before about,also being curious. Right?
And asking the questions like, “okay, if I'm seeing this is

(01:12:11):
the thing that's happening,”
part of the tracking is being curiousabout why? Why are we seeing it
have this, this thing?And that helps us root it out.
Right?
And this is not totally off topic,
but an example in kind ofconsultative psychology
where this person came in,
they were having some difficulties with

(01:12:33):
a particular demographic,not ever utilizing their resources.
And then,
they had no idea really whywhat was going on.
And when they went back and startedlooking, they saw that their mailing list,
some envelopes, got a specific
letter stamped on them,and some didn't. Didn’t know why.
When they finally went back,that they kept going back

(01:12:54):
further and further like, well,“this is this what I was told to do,
this is what I was told to do.”
Found out that there was an old thing
that was like certain zip codes would beidentified as non desirable essentially
and get something different or notget the newsletters and others did. Right?
So just being curious about it,there wasn't any any singular person

(01:13:16):
that did that on purpose currentlyin that institution, that organization.
But being curious is why, why,why do some letters have this letter
and some don't?
What does that mean and how is thatimpacting what we're doing.
Right.
So being curious, tracking the data,making sense of it.
- Absolutely.- Yeah.
Well as we finish out here,the second slice,

(01:13:38):
our bread slice of our sandwich here,what is our joyful recommendation?
Well, it's something that, I thinkbecame kind of a phenomenon, last year.
If not, not before last year, but,it's a kid's TV show called “Bluey”.
“Bluey”!
So some of you have probably heard of it,at least.
I think many of you have heard of it.

(01:14:00):
But have you checked it out?
So it is, you know, technicallya kids’ show, but it started developing
a big fan base among adults, even adultswithout kids like Eric Roman and I.
And I heard someone describe it as it'sa show for parents that kids also enjoy.
And I think that's a reallygood, explanation of it.
So it's about a much a cartoon dogs.

(01:14:22):
So in terms of diversity,you're not going to get
kind of human diversity per se.- Per se!
But like we said in our last year'sOctober episode,
you know, the power of analogyand media, can really - can still help us
develop emotional connectionsto messages and ideas, and so on.
And I think this show does itwell through analogy.
It's addressed lots of parenting issues.

(01:14:46):
There's one that I think is an allegoryfor transgender related stuff.
That one's called “stories”.
The episode called “Stories”.
If, if you're a “Bluey” fan and wonderingwhich one I'm talking about.
But the the story isthat this show is heartwarming.
Cute.
It is definitely somethingI watch to reduce anxiety if I'm feeling.

(01:15:07):
I know just putting it on
and in - they’re very short little like 7or 8 minute episodes for the most part -
and I as someone who,
you know, has a PhDbehavioral cognitive science, you know,
although I'm not a parent myself,I'm the oldest of five.
I have a lot of interfacingwith parenting and understanding it
from a scientific standpoint.

(01:15:28):
I think it is a great show for that.
The parents in the show,they have foibles.
They fall short sometimes,
but they're great at correcting itand they model a lot of
really great behavior for kids.
Yeah, no, I would, I would 100% agree.It had been on my list for a while.
I'd heard so many people talk about it,and I was like, “oh, really?”
Like, this is - like it's not --

(01:15:50):
I mean, I'm, I'm here for kids’ shows like,we all know this by now.
But I was like, “this is like a little -this is like a little kid show.
So what do you mean watch “Bluey”?”
And we watched it and I fell inlove with it and it absolutely has -
it absolutely is a show for parentsand that kids would enjoy.
But there's so many nods for parents.

(01:16:11):
But it just is really great
modeling on how todo corrective parenting
and child kind of centric parenting
and really just,
empowering their children and having -
The relationship between the parents.
And it just models really
normal, typical parentalinteractions and things

(01:16:35):
and how they can talk about it with theirkids and interact with their kids.
So I, yeah, I can't say enoughpositive things about it.
And, you know, one thing,I think I said this earlier
on the podcast,on another episode a while back, but,
just to reiterate, because it's relevantfor “Bluey” in particular,
you can't just dumpyour kids in front of the TV
and expect them to learn lessons.

(01:16:56):
But, “Bluey” has a lot of great lessons.
And there things if you watch, if you'rea parent, watch them with your kids
and talk through how what happensin the episode applies to the thing
that your kid’s going throughor you want your kid to learn from it,
that act of kind of generalizingfrom the show to life is something
that the role of the parent cannotbe, can't be overstated.

(01:17:18):
- Absolutely.
And it is genuinely just a fun show!Like we're all talking about,
“oh, learning, blah, blah, blah.”You know our rule …
- It’s just very cute!
… for a joyful recommendation.
The number one thing is it brings us joy.
We think it'll bring you joy.
And then also maybe you'll learn something.- Maybe you’ll learn a little something extra.
It's also out of Australia.
And so there's also interestingdifferent cultural things that you do

get a little bit exposed to (01:17:39):
slang terms and “oh, why do they talk like that?”
and so on that, I've learned thingsabout Australian culture
I didn't, I didn't know before.
So it is infuriatingly sweet and cute.
It’s adorable.
Like, yeah.
Oh yeah.
And touching. So. So check it out. “Bluey”.
It should still be on Disney+,streaming on Disney +.

(01:18:02):
Excellent.
(Producer Eric Roman) If I could add
Oh, Roman loves it, too.
(Producer Eric Roman) So Will mentionedthat it's not just like a kids’ show
that parents can watch, but like, it'sa good parenting show that kids can watch.
- Yeah.
But also it has,for lack of a better word,
quote unquote, adult humor.
- 100%, yes. - There's an episode where the

(01:18:25):
aunt runs away from her wedding, and then
Chili realizes,“oh, she went to the lookout.”
And then the little kids are like,“how do you know that's where she is?”
- Yeah.
And then the mom's like,“oh, we used to come up here
when we were teenagers to … think”
“To think.” The implication being,it was a make out point, something.

(01:18:47):
There's also another just adult humor --
(Producer Eric Roman) Or do illicit drugs!
Yeah, or to do other things.
Not think more than think.(Laughing)
There's another one where,
because they're dogs, there'sthis little joke that you're like, “wait.”
And so the father is talkingto another adult male dog,
and he's talking aboutgetting something removed.

(01:19:08):
He's like, “I don't know,what if I want them later in life?”
And it sounds like he'stalking about getting
neutered because he’s a dog.
And then like, the scene changes,but then it comes back to the scene.
Turns out he's he's talking about like a,
like getting wisdomteeth removed or something.
Well, actually they call them dog teeth.
Like in this fictional dog world,you take out your, your canine teeth.

(01:19:30):
That's like,“what if I want to bite someone.”
- That’s hiliarious. - But like, clearly a joke for the adult
that kids won’t get.- Yeah.
So it's fun. It's cute.
Give it a try.
Yeah, give it a watch.
All right.
I'm Dr. William Cox.
And I'm Dr. Amber Nelson.
“Diverse Joy” is producedby Eric Roman Beining

(01:19:50):
with music by Jay Arner.
It is accessible as a video podcaston YouTube or an audio only
podcast wherever you get podcastsor at DiverseJoy.com.
Follow us @DiverseJoyon most forms of social media.
I talked a lot about Instagram todayfor some reason.
We are @DiverseJoy on Instagram,so check us out there.

(01:20:11):
If you enjoy the show,help us reach
more people by leaving five star reviewsor recommending it personally.
“Diverse Joy” is theofficial podcast of
Inequity Agents of Change, a nonprofitdevoted to evidence-based approaches
to reduce bias, create inclusion,and promote equity.
All that good(both) JEDI work!
Learn more at BiasHabit.com.

(01:20:33):
Thank you for joining us.
(Both) Now go find your joy.
(Both) Bye bye.