S2E14: Alpha, Boomer, Millennial: Learn about Generational Biases

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[ “Diverse Joy” theme music by Jay Arner plays ]

(00:23):
[ “Diverse Joy” theme ends ]
Welcome to the season finale
of season 2 of “Diverse Joy”, a podcastthat infuses science, practical skills,
and most of all, joy into diversitydiscussions.
My co-host is the surly Dorothy
from “Golden Girls”.
(Will laughing)

(00:43):
And my co-host is the Sicilian prune,here from Shady Pines
- That’s right! - my ma Sophia Petrillo.
That's right.
Just kidding.
Actually, we dressed up as someGolden Girls, because it kind of relates
to today's topic.
But also this month is the 40thanniversary of the TV show “THe Golden Girls”.

(01:05):
Yeah.
My co-host is actuallyDr. Amber Nelson.
And my co-host is actuallyDr. William Cox.
So, Amber, what's bringing you joythis September episode?
Yeah.
So one of the things that I, you know,one of my “40 Before 40” experiences
was doing a formal tea.

(01:26):
I think I had done a formal teaonce before, early, like when I was young,
but I actually went with some formerstudents of mine and it was really fun.
We dressed up kind of “Bridgerton”-esque and went and had this formal tea
was like a two hour experience and,

(01:47):
we got to sit and had a huge booklet
of different types of teas that we all,
each of us got a different kindso we could try the different ones.
And, a tower of little tea foods,little -
you know, mini sandwiches,cucumber and cheese sandwiches and,

(02:07):
little cookie and crumpetsand things like that.
And it was just
it was just such a fun experienceand just something outside of my norm.
And, I really like tea,but I haven't necessarily been somebody
who's incorporated ita lot into my daily habit.
So, experiencing that and experiencingsome new ones was really fun.

(02:31):
So, yeah, my little formal teaand I definitely
am planning to take my mom and,and others
that are interested in the experiencebecause it was just a really cute
little place, in Beaverton, Tigard arearight outside of Portland.
So very cool, super fun experience.
So yeah.

(02:51):
It's very fancy and formal and fun.
Yeah, fancy formal fun.
Like I said, we kind of all dressed up,like very “Bridgerton”-esque.
And it was, it was a good time.
It was a good time.
Yeah, yeah.
So how about you? Let's bring you joy.
Well, what’s bringing me joy:
It's somethingI should have had as a joy early on.
Someone I should say,my puppy, Ezra.

(03:12):
He’s not really a puppy anymore.
He's six and a halfnow, as of this episode.
But he is such a sweet guy.
Those of youwho are watching can see him.
He is just very well behaved,
very smart, very loving,tender.
Really cares about me and Roman.

(03:34):
And he's just friendly with everyone.
Just about everyone.- He really is. Yeah!
He doesn't like little kidsbecause there was a little kid
that kind of scared himwhen he was a puppy, but, that's okay
because we don't have little kids.
He is the sweetest pup, though.
Like, he's just so well-behaved
and just the sweetest, like,just lets you love on him.

(03:57):
And we had him for a yearbefore the pandemic started.
And so he was able to be properlysocialized
through a lot of those critical periodsfor dog brain development.
- Yeah. - Before the pandemic hit.
So he's not like a lot of peoplewho have pandemic dogs
that maybe have some behavioral issuesbecause of that.
- Yeah. - He really was able to
get exposed to lots of different kindsof people, different kinds of dogs.

(04:20):
And he's
just he's so well behaved.- He’s incredibly well-behaved, yes.
He just listens so well,like, just a great dog.
And, like,I work from home for the most part,
except when I'm traveling to,you know, do trainings
and, so it's nice to get to be with himall day.
And he's definitely mymy little comfort boy.
Yeah. He's such a good boy.

(04:43):
And, you know, mostyou can't see him on camera
usually those of youwho watch the podcast,
but he's almost always here with us,like sitting on a little bed,
like under one of thetables off camera.
Yeah.
But I brought him up to my lap.
Now I'm going to let you go down.There you go!
Oh, I love it.
Yeah, that's a good one.I really appreciate that
you finally mentioned himbecause he's incredible!

(05:05):
He’s pretty great.
Yeah, he's pretty great.He's pretty great.
So yeah thank you for sharing that.
So, today
we're going to be talkingabout generational bias.
And I thought it would be fun todo something a little bit different.
And start us offwith a little quiz

(05:26):
to see both yours and Roman's,
knowledge of Gen Alpha slang.
So just to be clear,so there's Gen X who’s a little bit older.
- Yes.- We're Millennials.
Yep.
Right after us is Gen Z.
And so how old are they?
Gen Z's like in their 20s now.

(05:50):
And then Gen Alpha is like
the middle schoolers …Gen Z is still high school-ish.
So Alpha’smiddle school, high school.
So I'd say that some of thesewords are both Z and Alpha.
But some of theGen Z-ers are like “what is…?”
All right.
So Eric Roman, get your microphone readyand join me in this quiz

(06:12):
that I did not study foror cheat.
You didn’t study!
I didn't realize Amberwas doing a quiz.
“You got me, ma!”
And I'll just be honest,I don't know all of these words either.
So I'm still learning,and figuring some of them out.
(Producer Eric Roman) Will we be ringing in orshould we just shout out the answer?

(06:33):
I think ust shout out if you knowand what your best guess is.
Okay, so, what about Chad?
(Producer Eric Roman) Isn’t that a reference to,
like, blond, conventionally attractive dudes?
- Yeah.- Kind of, yeah.
They're like they're…
(Producer Eric Roman) Like the incel Chad?
Yeah.
Average kind of White,maybe not very smart.

(06:55):
Not nerdy dude.
Less that.
From my understanding, it's more likethe “it guy” like you want to be a Chad.
I think for our generation a Chad was --
(Producer Eric Roman) Gen Alpha doesn't have incels?
Yeah, I mean, they do, but different.
So like, it was much --
I think our generationwas much more like a Chad was a bad thing.

(07:17):
But now being a Chad is like,you want to be a Chad.
Oh, the Chad's have all the …
Chad Michael Murray.- Yeah.
Oh that's a millennial.
They're not going to know whoChad Michael Murray is.
Okay.
How about skibidi?
No.
(Producer Eric Roman) Is that like the new version of rizz?

(07:38):
Kind of. Well rizz is a whole --Well, that’s one on here.
But yeah skibidi,
it has multiple
meanings that I think Gen Alphadoesn't always do a great job of defining,
but it essentially is like an amplifieror something that's really awesome.
It's skibidi.
But if you pair it with other wordslike skibidi toilet.

(08:03):
That means bad?- Then it's bad.
Yeah, yeah.
Adding toilets to things is bad.
Yeah, it's real bad. Exactly.
So, like, Ambers wig game is --
Amber has got some skibidi wig game, right?
Amber always has the best wigs.
Yeah. Yes, exactly, exactly.
Okay, how about podium?
I'm guessing it's not a thingfor standing and presenting.

(08:26):
No, it is not.
(Producer Eric Roman) Is that the new soap box?
No.
But that's a good guess.That's a good guess. It's not.
It's for something that's, like,really good, but maybe not like the best.
Not like gold medal.
But it's like, he’s podium. Like it's podium.Like that's podium. But not necessarily
is that like, you know the best.Right?

(08:47):
(Producer Eric Roman) You came in secondby a millionth of a second.
Yeah. Exactly.
So you're podium. Exactly. Exactly.
Okay.
How about …
I don't know that I'm goingto describe this one
super, super great.
But I'm going to do it anywaybecause I think it's interesting.
Preppy.

(09:08):
Is it different from preppyfrom our generation.
I'm guessing it must be.
Kinda?It's similar, but not really.
Someone who does a lot of preparationfor something.
So almost like a nerd.
Someone who's really good in class.
They're full of class prep.
I like that, I like that.
How about you, Roman?- No cheating.

(09:29):
He always has a computerto look up things for us.
And I’m realizing
I’m at a disadvantageif he's secretly looking at something.
Yeah.
(Producer Eric Roman) Somebodycalling something preppy
but not in the way that Millennialsthink about it must mean
someone who is ready for the SATs

(09:51):
even though they're apparentlymiddle school.
I can see that.
I can see that, no, it'skind of like basic, you know, like it's
somebody …
It's not like,you know, not necessarily a style,
but somebody who's preppy is kind of like,oh, they're so preppy.
They're basic.
Well.

(10:12):
Okay.
How about sigma?
(Both) Elite.
A sigma male.
Yeah. Like the alpha male,
omega male, sigma male.- Sigma six?
Uh huh, yeah it's like alpha.
It's like the top cool --
The top dog, the coolest one.
We already mentioned rizz.
Y'all know rizz right?
It's like your style.- Charisma.

(10:34):
You're put together-nessmakes you cool.
Yep.
It's short for charisma.- Your drip.
Your drip. Your swag.
It's kind of like somebody's swag.
Okay, how about -- I think sharedthis one with you all earlier, but Ohio.
Oh I forgot, I actually forgot.
(Producer Eric Roman)I don't remember either.
Ohio toilet?
Yeah.

(10:54):
Yeah.
So Ohio, which is really sad,
I'm not sure --I don't condone this slang term
- But you picked it out!
But it is
one that they use.
Ohio kind of means loser.
Like, oh, what are you like from Ohio?
Like, oh, that's so Ohio, I know, but,another term is like, oh, you got that --

(11:16):
One of my kids have said,this has said this --
And it was, oh, you got thatOhio skibidi rizz! Skibidi toilet rizz.
Excuse me.
You got that
Ohio skibidi toilet rizz,which means, like, really terrible rizz.
Like such a loser.
How much of this isjust like a Portland area slang?
It is not Portland area stuff!

(11:37):
I have seen the videos of people all over.
I also wonder if it's like more coast
like because,I mean, Ohio's close enough to Wisconsin.
I wonder if Wisconsin kids would useOhio as that or not.
I don't know, Iso I saw some videos of people
in like Tennessee using it, I don't know.
So, I don't know. That's a good question.It's a good question.

(11:59):
Rude, Gen Alpha, rude!
I know.
But you know,they don't listen to podcasts anyways.
So they’re not going to hear us.- That’s true.
Okay.
I'll just ask, a couple others. Okay.
How about
okay, how about a bop.
Bop? A song that's really good.(Producer Eric Roman) A song.
Like we use that.
We've used this several times on the onthe show, like talking about music.

(12:22):
Like I think our very first episodewhen we were talking about Gaya’s music,
Star Wars music, we were like,it's a bop!
Yeah.
That's not how Alpha uses it.- What?!
So a bopis like a girl who posts a lot of selfies.
So also
kind of like, oh, she's such a bop.
Like somebody who's always takingtons of selfies and posting selfies.

(12:46):
(Producer Eric Romaono) Is she a bopor is she a boop like Betty Boop?
She's always posting?
I don't think they get the Betty Boopreference.
Yeah.
(Producer Eric Roman) So why are they co-opting bop?
You know, I …
They also
are taking preppy, too.
- They don’t know that either.
All right.
I'll just do like two more.

(13:07):
This one, I'm sure that you all know.
Ate.
Is that something like eaten in the past tense?
Yes, it is, one way.
(Producer Eric Roman) Like 86, eight?
Like, is it the short version of 86?
No, no.
Like she ate that leftno crumbs, means like you …
Dominated it?
Yeah. You dominated it like you.

(13:29):
You ate that.
- Chewed the scenery.
You ate that up!
Left no crumbs. Right.
Like you did such a good job.
That,you know, you left no evidence behind.
All right, there's several more,but I will we'll end it with that.
But I thought it would be fun to do that.
Some of the ones I think that we grew upwith or things like,

(13:52):
you know, that was the bomb. Bomb.com.
(All laughing)
That's dope.
Or, what was it?
Snoop Dogg did a lot of his own lingo.
Like, for shizzle.
I don't know if y'all got into the for shizzle.
Got into the for shizzle stuff. (Laughing)
Hater. Baller. All of those were,

(14:14):
or, like, wassup? Things like,
Wassup!
and I think that Millennials --- That’s a little Gen X, too.
It is.And I think that Millennials were also
the ones that really started the,the acronyms like
BRB.- AF.
AF.
This podcast is lit AF.
Lit is something that we’d say.Gen Alpha doesn't know lit.

(14:36):
So anyway,I thought that would be just a fun way
to kind of start us off thinking aboutjust generational differences.
What kind of language do we use?- And biases.
And biases. Exactly.
So in this conversation …
If anything
you taught me a new bias that Gen Alphadoesn't understand how to use words.
(Both laughing)That’s true.

(14:57):
And well, you know, I think it's funnybecause, you know, I was watching
I don't know, I've seen it in severalshows, movies, things like that,
where you see - it's actuallya reference to a “Family Guy” episode!
I didn't even really watch “Family Guy”that often, but
I happened to watch an episode,or there's a portion of an episode

(15:17):
where you saw, I don't remember the -what's the dads name?
Peter Griffin. - “Peta”
“Peta.”
“Peta!” - When he was a kid
and he's talking to his dad and using,you know,
slang from the 70s, and his dad was like,I don't understand this.
You kids these days.
And he's like,I don't get what you're talking about.

(15:39):
I'll never be like that.
And then flash forward.
You see him
basically saying the exact same thingabout and to his kids,
that like we have,
we center kind of ourselvesour experience and
then start to go like,oh my gosh, like Ohio skibidi rizz, like

(16:00):
what do you mean?- Yeah, yeah.
That is ridiculous.
Well, there's a similar thing.
There's a lot of research on thisin musical tastes.
So, the research I’m aware of,
this isn't something that I have deepunderstanding on,
so pardon me if I get anything wrong,if anyone listening to
this knows better, but,

(16:20):
some people will say thatour kind of musical tastes
kind of get set in placeas we leave adolescence.
So, which ends at about 25 at the latest.
And then after that,your musical taste is kind of set.
And so this is why everyonealways thinks their generation's music
is better than the next generation's,and sometimes have trouble, like, and,

(16:42):
thinking of that in terms of mental habitsthat we talk about, you know,
liking a certain kind of music,that's your mental habit.
And then when you hear music that'skind of breaking the mold on that, that's
violating the expectations that you haveabout how music's supposed to go.
-That's going to be frustratingand aggravating for you.
Right, right.
- So as we've talked about several timesin this season,
that kind of breaking out of theexpectation and breaking out of the habit,

(17:03):
it results in kind of frustrated,emotional,
states, which then you can turn outwardsand be like, ah these dang kids
and their crazy music!
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interestingyou bring that up.
So it's really it's aboutI think it's called neural nostalgia.
That neural nostalgia is where,when and where and how we form these

(17:25):
really strong bondswith the music that we had
when our brain was still forming,which makes a lot of sense.
Right? Like that's where we set it.
That's the music that we will kind of,
kind of go back to, revert back to.
That's the musicthat we kind of hold most closely.
But, you know,it happens in style too, right?
Like, we recently were told that

(17:48):
wearing ankle socks.
Oh jeez.
Our sock style, was like, you know.
Yeah.
So, like, my default,although I'm trying to break out of it now
because I want thekids to think I'm cool.
I want to think I'm cool.
But, like, yeah
ankle socks or no show socks
were kind of the normwhere you show a little ankle, show a little calf.

(18:09):
But apparently for kids these days,
socks should be pulled up and visible,
and they're like,you need it to break up your leg.
Whereas for me, it's like shoe withmaybe a tiny bit of sock.
Right.
And then like, when wearing shortsand you see lots of leg.
But apparently not.They want to break it up.
Yeah, yeah.
So if you look backactually at some of the pictures

(18:32):
of what we're wearing this season,there's one where I was
in shorts and I was like,no, I need to have long socks!
Actually, 1 or 2, maybebecause we were thinking about that from
not season one,but, episode one of this season.
So over the last year,I've been working on it.
You know, I'm trying to figure out, like,how do we adjust and change

(18:52):
with the times, but it just a reallyinteresting thing that comes up.
And then the also thinkingabout generational differences
and so of course music and tasteand things like that, style of dress,
but also the generational like stereotypesthat, that come, too.
Okay, Boomer.- Exactly. Okay, Boomer.

(19:14):
So like Boomers getting this reputationthat they don't learn.
It's kind of like you can't teachan old dog new tricks, right?
Like, that they are unable to do technology,that they are resistant to change,
that they --
And there's there's an assumptionthat they're more racist, more sexist,
more anti-gay.- Right. Right.
Which I'msure some of them are, but not all.

(19:36):
- Right. Right!
That their age doesn't necessarily meanexclusively that those are the things.
Right.
Because any of those things can mean -could be for anybody.
Right?- Yeah.
And then there's, there's vice versa,
where there are some older peoplewho kind of aren't very open to new ideas
that younger generationsare figuring out.
So something we talk about on and off throughout thisfirst two seasons of the podcast so far.

(20:00):
That we're always
discovering better ways to do thingsand think about things and pronouns
and saying, you all instead ofyou guys like things like that.
But then when someone makes a changeagain, that violates someone's mental
habits and can can create some reactanceand some irritation.
And this makes me think of the ideathat I want people to kind of think of

(20:22):
and understand how, you know,there may be new ideas that come about
and they might break your old worldviews
or as we like to say, interferewith that cultural inertia.
- Right.
But often they’re reflecting thingsthat have always existed.
So I know these days,
generations older than us, there's some who are like,oh, transgender stuff.

(20:42):
That's some weird new fangled stuff.
Yeah.
In fact, I won't say who this was,but someone in my life recently,
found out about a mutual
acquaintance who is trans
and this is a Boomer generation person.
And they were like, well,I know these days that, you know, kids

(21:03):
can think,
you know, they can just be whateverthey want to be and they’re making these decisions.
But, you know, new and blah blah blah.
I was like, well, I can understand that
it's maybe new for you.
- It's not actually newto people these days.
Right.
- Trans people have always existed.
Lesbian, gay,bisexual people have always existed.
They've just been in hiding or sometimeswe haven't had words for them.
they didn't really understand

(21:23):
what the feelingsthat they were having meant.
But, you can go back in historyfor all these kinds of identities
and find them throughout and acrossdifferent cultures.
Two spirit people is
that indigenous people in the Americas,
a version of what we would call gendernon-binary now and on and on and on.

(21:43):
So like, even if
certain identitiesare coming to greater prominence
- Right.
and are out
and proud more now, doesn't mean thatthey haven't always existed.
Right.
So just because it's kind of new to you,to someone,
doesn't mean it's like,oh, you just invented something.
Right.
But that's definitely how

(22:03):
some of the public rhetoric has been,especially around trans related stuff recently.
Absolutely.
And again, I think in when we'rewe're thinking about particularly older
generations, we do have a lot of kindof negative associations
and stereotypes about folks,
both them towards othersbecause of the changing world around them,

(22:26):
and also like,these negative automatic associations
that we have with Boomersor with those that are older.
It became a really prominent discussion -
not talking about anythingspecifically political - but just that
it was a big part of the conversationin this last election, right?
That we had two candidatesthat were senior.

(22:51):
- Yep.- Right?
And that then all of a sudden,questions about their competence,
their mental capacityand their competency, and fitness
become a question.Less about their political stances
or what they are able to do,but just because of their age.
And, our dear friend of the podcastand past guests, Nicki Vander Meulen,

(23:13):
it's something that she kept a tighteye on during that election,
you know, when it was Biden and Trump,because they’re both older men
some of the images people would use would
portray people's
questions about the ageof those two candidates.
Like they would put, like walkers
like use a walker withthe presidential insignia on it.

(23:34):
There was one that she showed me,
I remember several times,because she was like, can you believe this?
And it’s kind of - it's ableism,it's saying like, oh,
if someone can't walk right,they can't be President,
which really, we've had a Presidentin a wheelchair.
It was hidden and we didn't know thathe was in the wheelchair at the time.
But like, there's nothing about beinga president that requires stable walking.
And if someone's an older human,either candidate,

(23:55):
- Right.
that doesn't meanthey can't be President.
- Right.
But then the imagery perpetuateskind of an ableist idea.
And I also think
that like, you know,the flip side of the
stereotype is also that somebodywill see someone who's older
and automatically assumethat they're more senior

(24:17):
or that they have more informationor knowledge.
And so we'll see that from a -or a youth bias I should say -
is that like there'sthis kind of automatic,
deferral to those who are olderin the space, right?
That, or at least I see that a lotas a clinical psychologist,

(24:38):
that there's kind of a biasbecause I appear young.
And when I was a studentthat people would question my competence
because I was young or that I appearedyoung, and that they wanted somebody who
looked or was
older just because they felt likethey had more life experience.

(24:58):
Therefore they knew better,even though I maybe had more credentials
and more experience than somebody else.
From a clinical perspective.
- Yep.
When you brought up the idea of doingkind of generation based biases,
I thought back towhen I worked with students more,
undergraduate students more.
And, one thing that I rememberkind of bothering me

(25:20):
that maybe I didn't always handlein the kind of best
I mean, I don't think it was terribleat handling this, but,
one thing I remember,
happening a lot is there would be kidswho would be really motivated about bias
and diversity topics.
Of course,
those are the kinds that are going to comeand work with me in my research lab.
But then sometimes they'd be discoveringthings that were new to them
that, you know,
as a person working in this area,I definitely knew about for a long time,

(25:44):
but they would kind of get this thing
where they thinkbecause it's new to them, that it's new,
which actually, now that I'm saying it outloud, is kind of the same as what
we're saying about, kind of maybe Boomersearlier, like, oh,
transgender peopleor the idea of trans is new to them.
And so they think it's newwhen really it's not.
- Yeah.
But for, for these and,some undergrads and thinking of a few,

(26:06):
instances of them being like,
whoa, gender is a social construct, man.
And like, I mean, it's greatthat it's new and special for them.
But, like, they were acting like,maybe I'd never heard of that.
And sometimes in a kind of aggressive waythat I faced once or twice, like,
don’t you know, gender is a social construct?- Right.
And I'm like, well, yeah, of course,that's something like

(26:30):
that didn't come around this century.
Like, feminist scholars knewabout that a long time ago.
- We were aware.- We've been there.
And then, yeah,this might just be particular, I think.
I guess these would be Gen Zers.
These particular Gen Zerswere just so pushy about like,
no, no, man, but you don't know.

(26:50):
You don't realize. I'm like, yeah, I do.
Yeah. Like I get it, I get it.
Yeah.
Yeah I think it's, it's againit's interesting like I think we see that
and it's also an important -I think - quality to young folks.
That even though we as older generation

(27:11):
which is weird to, to recognize that.
Girl, we both 40 now.
That we are golden girls
and that we are older now
that I thinkthat there are different pieces
that influence you know, one,we've been around the block,
we know the research, we know the things.

(27:33):
We're also accustomed to what the world isand how that
and maybe some of the kind of our owncynicism kind of comes into that.
And I think one of the things so,
one of the things I wanted to talk aboutis also the
this bias against younger folks, too,
and that, that, that

(27:57):
vitality, even kind of pushinessthat comes from
even if it feels like kind of a co-optinga little bit of like something
that's been around for a long time,but they're kind of coming at it
with a new joie de vivre.- Eagerness.
Eagerness!
But that there's somethingreally important

(28:17):
about that. That there is -
that young folks arethe ones that have been
at the forefrontof so much of our social change.
And so much of our social movementsin the world and our country
in particular, that when
even if it's something we've knownfor a long time,

(28:40):
that sometimes that new renewed passion
is enough to mobilize young folks
into making change that may be generationsprior to them have not.
Or maybe it has been stalledor paused for a while now --
- Or forgotten.- Or forgotten
and that now it's like, yeah,but we're not where we need to be
when it comes to gender, when it comesto these other social things.

(29:03):
And so now we are pushing for thisbecause this is important.
Yeah. That reminds me of -
that's a really good point. Thank you.
And it reminds me of an important
concept from the researchliterature called anchoring.
And so if we,
how motivatedwe are to make change, depends on
how we kind of anchor the present versusthe past versus the future.

(29:26):
So, for instance, with race related stuff,if you get people to anchor on the past,
if they're thinking about slaveryand things like that,
they look at the present, they're like,look how far we've kind of come.
And so they feel goodand they think, you know, what is racist?
Well, racist is owning slaves.
I don't own slaves. I'm not racist.
I don't have any work to do.
But if you anchor on the future, like,well, look, we still have a ways to go.

(29:48):
There's still things we could work on.
Then they're like,yeah, we're not where we need to be yet.
And that motivates people to work more.
And so like,
and then further interfacingwith the kind of kids
discovering things like,I would have people come into my lab
and like in our bias habit-breaking training,I don't really talk about slavery.
- Right.- And that's why.
It's not that I want to erase it.

(30:09):
It's not that I want to forget it.- Right.
But in the bias habit-breaking trainingthe goal is in the moment
to motivate people as much as possibleand then teach them the skills
which we talk about every episode,those wonderful skills.
So I'm not talking about slavery,but then some of the younger students
I have are like, oh, well,this is not actually doing
any kind of proper racism workbecause you're not even mentioning.

(30:31):
And it's like, well,
chill out, chill out a little.
There is a big reason behind all of this,you know.
- There’s a reason why, yeah.
And, and,kind of believing in and wanting,
I would have preferred they kind of askedrather than went off on …
- Yeah, sure.
… soap box kind of thing.
Yeah. But, but but,
it all weavesin and out in different ways.

(30:55):
And I think that there's, there are,you know, developmental reasons
why I think those that are older,
look back at all of the experience andkind of anchor backward versus forward.
I think there'san existential anxiety
about the looking forwardwhen you are closer to

(31:16):
perhaps the end of your lifethan you are earlier in their life.
- Oh, yeah.
And we have thosethat are our younger generations
that have their whole life ahead of them.
So like the anchoring points again, arevery different, different perspectives.
But there's something really.
Yeah, we would prefer
maybe a more respectful wayof having those conversations.

(31:36):
- Yeah.
And man I'm so thankful for them.
The more that I, you know,you all know that my area of
specializations is pediatrics,and pediatrics
being children from 0 to 25
and you know,working with teens these days,

(31:57):
I just continue to be renewedin my excitement for the future
because they are justa different generation.
They think about things differently.
They're passionate about thingsthat I think you know, our generation has,
you know, has had less
fire behind,you know, or even just thinking about,

(32:19):
you know,
the world yet I think about Greta Thunbergand how,
how passionate she is about,
the world and the environment and
we just have not had that kindof energy behind that particular area,
especially our generation, and hearingand seeing the social movements
that people - teens and young adults - aretaking on is very inspiring.

(32:46):
- Yeah.
And let me, back up a little bit ofwhat I was saying a bit
because I think I might havecome across a little too crotchety,
a little too grumpy.
Possibly because I'm channeling Dorothy Zbornakfrom “The Godlen Girls”.
Possibly because wearingher wig is a bit itchy.
And like irritating.
But, you know,I was talking about -
the examples I was talking aboutstudents I've worked with,

(33:08):
that that's 1 or 2 studentsout of the hundreds I've had.
- Right.
By and large,I feel the same way you do that.
I love the energythat working with
young people brought to my work and the stufflike the bias habit-breaking training.
They always provided new insightsand and things.
And yes, sometimes there were somewho were maybe a little too assertive

(33:29):
in a way that didn't hold respect,but by and large, the vast
majority were just excellent.
And I adored working with them.
And they did bring that kind of energy.
And yeah, helped, open my eyes to newand different things and perspectives.
And a lot of themlisten to the podcast also.
And I definitely wasn'ttalking about any of you!
(Both laughing)

(33:50):
I loved all my work.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and then even younger than that,kind of young adults,
and even teenagers,I think about how often
we dismiss and discount kids.
And younger kids like school agechildren and middle schoolers.

(34:13):
And, you know,part of the reason I work in pediatrics
is because I - well, one,we know clearly I care about diversity.
Clearly I care aboutadvocating for people.
Clearly I care about all of these things.
But I think that,kind of on the two ends of the spectrum,
the young, young folks like,

(34:36):
middle school and elementary kidsand older folks 65-plus
tend to be two demographics of peoplethat get dismissed the most.
Lose their voice,lose their value in our culture.
Lose their kind of respect, their …
… right to be at the forefront of discussions.

(34:56):
Exactly.
And, you know, for, for the older folks
in our countryand our culture specifically,
really tend to lose their value and loseor at least perceived value
and get kind of pushed towardslike nursing homes or things like that,
which often are necessary for familiesand needing that additional help.

(35:19):
And then younger folks also lose,don't have any autonomy
and get often get decisions made for them.
Don't always have a voicein their own life or in what they want
their autonomy and being able to
have their perspective valued,which to hearken back to “Bluey”,
this one's something that

(35:40):
their parents do a really good jobof, of amplifying their voices.
But - and again, Iwhen I'm thinking about this generational
bias stereotypesand where and how it comes out,
it comes out in somethingyou said last episode, which is who,
who deserves to have their voiceheard or respected

(36:00):
and how do we move to a place where we arenot allowing
a generational,cultural difference or shift,
or an age difference
be the thing that creates a barrieror discount somebody’s voice or experience?
And yeah,and that reminds me of something,

(36:23):
I think I mentioned it a bit many episodesago, but it's been a little while.
The indigenous groupI work with in Canada,
one thing that they did on this retreat,we went on and
on many of the meetings we do is,
adopting what they call anindigenous science
or indigenous wisdom approach.
And part of that is having elders there.

(36:45):
- Yes.
So even though we're young andmiddle-aged scientists
having an elder who isn't even necessarilya scientist themselves …
- Right.
… sit in, think about the thingsthat we're discussing and saying,
and very often startingand ending the meeting.
And this is something - this is gettinga little out of generational bias - but
they start and end the meetingwith kind of a prayer blessing.

(37:06):
And this is my kind of Western words
being put on somethingthat I think has different terms for them.
But, you know, I really appreciated itas a different perspective
and as something that we did because in,starting with this type of prayer,
the elder really, Aunty Alida,if you’re listening,
she really sets the tone for, like,

(37:28):
thinking in terms of historyand the people who’ve come before us,
- Yes!
and also in the prayerin our most recent meeting, she also,
thought forward and kind of the prayerincluded not just ancestors,
but descendantsthinking forward to the future.
And beyond the kind of spiritual aspect or inaddition, both and the spiritual aspects.

(37:49):
It's helping us to think
you know, we're part of a longerline of even just researchers.
And so, as we're thinking about the work,are we thinking about how we're
honoring people who've come beforeand the people who are coming after?
And I felt like that was a really nice …I every time I think that it's really,
nice and decolonize -to use some your terms - way of doing things.

(38:11):
Yeah.Well, and I really do
I think that there areso many other cultures that that see age
and aging very differently than
kind of the colonized American,
North American, perspective on that,that I think is really important.
And we see this also,

(38:32):
even when we're thinking about workspaces,right? That it's really important
to have the young folks,the new ideas, new things
and the historywe need folks that have had some longevity
in an organization and in a spaceto bring in the perspective of,
hey, here are some things thatwe've done before, here's how it's gone,

(38:54):
here's why we got to where, howand why we got to where we are currently.
And then from thatworking intergenerationally,
and collaboratively both,you know, whether that's a workspace
or in life in generalthat it's important that we don't lose
sight of where we've come fromor how or why we got to where we are.

(39:19):
Because, you know, again,it's that it's the, the trope of
if we don't know history, we're doomedto repeat it, right?
- Yeah.
And a version of that,
I guess this might be in science specifically,but reinventing the wheel.
- Right.
So like if you (stammering)
when working with grad students,researchers, often
they have ideasthat already exist out there.
So if they haven't read

(39:39):
the research literature or they aren'tworking with an advisor who knows it,
- Yeah.
then they kind of start just redoingthings that have already been done.
- Right.
And not in the good like,scientific replication kind of ways.
- Right.
Just like, you haven't done your due dliigence.- Uninformed.
Yeah. Yeah.
And sometimes, you know,I think sometimes the wheel
needs to be reinvented, butit needs to be done in an intentional way.

(40:02):
Right?
Like being informed by what has happenedbefore and saying like, okay,
yeah, the wheels been invented,and we're going to look at it
from this perspective.
And maybe here'sthis other thing that we can take from,
you know, use what's been there previouslyand build on it to move forward.
- Yep.- Yeah, yeah.

(40:23):
Anyway, so I think - I don't know.I think that there's
so much for us to be thinking aboutand considering when
talking about intergenerationaldifferences and generational bias,
but for us to sit and assessfor ourselves, right,
like when I think of an older person,
what are the immediateassociations that I have?

(40:46):
Yeah.
What are my immediate thoughts?When I think of somebody over 65?
Like, for instance, you know,where some of this bias comes out,
also comes out in hiring practicesand things, right?
So even in academia, whereI think that age, and time and tenure,
literal tenure, but tenurein an institution holds a lot of weight.

(41:09):
I also saw it come out in hiringpractices of like, oh, somebody’s however old
or has been aroundfor - been doing academia for 20+ years,
30+ years,and we're hiring for a new spot.
Do we take somebody whomight retire in the next few years?
So does that -- you know?Or do we take somebody who's

(41:31):
right out of graduate school that hasthe potential for a very long career?
You know? And this bias,
you know, for or against either side,but for us to take the time
to just slow downand intentionally think about, like,
what comes up for me, what comes up for mewhen I think of hiring somebody over 65,

(41:54):
or hiring somebody
that's much younger than me or thatjust finished or that maybe finished
did their schooling really quicklybecause that's
I mean, that's a really that's somethingthat's happening a lot right now,
especially in the age of Covid,where people were doing
a lot of schooling onlineand kind of doubled up the pace.
And so we are having peoplecoming into grad school very young.

(42:18):
And, you know, I have grad students
that are going to have their doctorateby the time they're 22, 23.
Wow!
And I was like,I was, you know, I, you know, I had
(stammering) I was justfinishing college by that time. (Laughing)
And so whereas they're goingto have their whole doctorate,
you know,and so what comes up for us when we

(42:40):
think of a doctor who's 23?
(Will chuckles)
Right?
And what do I do --
- I mean, my immediate reaction
is like “oh…”
I was like, if we're talking about adoctor, like a medical doctor,
- A medical doctor, mmhmm.
like, oh, I don't want a doctor who’s 23.- Yeah.
And that maybe,you know, maybe that's not fair. Yeah.
Right. Right. Exactly.
And I think thatthat's my question for us.

(43:02):
That's the thing that I wantedus to kind of address
reminding ourselves, like, okay,
what's coming up for usand how is that going to impact
my behavior towards somebody,whether that's young or old or otherwise?
And recognizing --when we we talked about last season,
you know, kind of power and privilegethat what groups hold the most privilege?

(43:24):
And we're in that demographic.
We're in that early middle agedemographic.
We hold the most privilege. Right?In this particular age enough.
- We’re old enough but we're not too old yet.
We're not too old yet. Yeah, right. Exactly.
So everyone keep listening to our podcastbecause we clearly are the ones
who are best equipped.- We're the ones to listen to you.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

(43:45):
Are we are we good to move on?- Yeah.
So with that, about listeningto the podcast, since this is our
season two finale, just in the middle,
I wanted to
ask everyone, as usual, to sendin your comments, your questions,
(both) your stories.
If you've used some of the skillsin your life and and connected them and,
and they've been effective or tried themand they didn't work. All of the above!

(44:08):
- Yep.
Please send it in to us.
Because as we get startedprepping season three,
which it
will be, we'll be recording season threevery soon.
Because there's not going to be there.
Well, we currently don't plan for thereto be a break.
So next month will bethe start of season three.
So please, now's the, last chanceto send in lots of questions
before the start of season three.

(44:30):
Also, please recommend the podcast
to your friends, family members,coworkers.
We are so pleased that
there are quite a handfulnow of workplaces
that are using thisas their kind of monthly diversity
kind of listen and learn activity.
And we take that very seriously.
We put a lot of work into planningeach season, each each episode, even,

(44:53):
and we're going to keep that up.
Recommend the podcast to
anyone you know, that's the number one waywe reach more people.
Also, if you have kind of diversity or DEIor whatever acronym or term
you use, resource pagesin your organization
or networks you're a part of,add our podcast to that
because it's why it exists.

(45:15):
So yeah, thank you.
And share your resources with us as well,because I think we want to be
we want to be a resource for you, butwe also want to share things that we have.
- Absolutely.
Mmhmm.
All right,so we're gonna take a little break
and then come back with story time.
[ “Diverse Joy” interestitial music by Jay Arner plays ]
Welcome back (holding last vowel sound).

(45:36):
All right.
So we're going to go into story time.
As always we start with a negative storyand then go to a positive one.
I've got our negative storythis month.
So related to this kind ofgenerational bias kind of thing,
I was giving
our bias habit-breaking traininga few years back.

(45:59):
And I was in the middle of itand an older gentleman interrupted me,
and he
was just kind of against the whole ideathat bias was a problem.
He was like,I've never seen this kind of stuff happen.
This stuff is -- I never have bias.
Something something, something.
And, you know, I very rarely do I have
someone kind of that … rude. - Insistent.

(46:20):
But, I was, I was,kind of just sharing with them.
Well, you know, this is very wellreplicated scientific research.
- Right.
But, he was just being very ornery.One of his colleagues -
so these are professors - one of hiscolleagues, who's around our age,
then kind of jumped in and took himon, and I just kind of
let them handle their internal issuebetween the two of them.

(46:42):
But the younger guy was like,there are all kinds of biases out there.
For instance, I see that you're,you know, this old dude.
So I assume you're probably pretty racist.
And that, of course, didn't go over well.
That didn't de-escalate. It escalated.
- Mmhmm.
And so the older gentleman like,
yeah, was not happy about it,but there is, you know, kind of two sides -

(47:03):
there's the well,the older gentleman was kind of disrupting
going, I don't believe in biasand so on, but also
kind of directly insulting him, like,oh, I'm assuming you're racist.
- Right!
Not a nice way to go about it.
- Right!
So I had to get you backcontrol of the room and
kind of reestablish the
safe space narrativeand all that kind of stuff. But.

(47:26):
Yeah, I, I have been there in different,different ways, before.
And I do think that, man,
managing that situationcan be challenging and figuring out, like,
how do you redirect or bring folks,bring folks back, but yeah,
the interrupting can be challenging.

(47:47):
Yeah.
So my flip of the
negative story is not necessarilya presentation piece,
but I was thinking about generationaldifferences and I was reminded:
So when I was teaching,I taught the lifespan development course,
and every year,

a few, a few parts of that (48:08):
One, I talked about development
from birth to death, and
we did it by age demographics.
Right?
Like kind of infancy and toddler
and moving all the way up to seniors,65+.

(48:28):
And it was always
was one of the my,my most favorite classes to teach.
And as each kind of demographic
or each developmental stage that we talkedabout, I'd also bring in a guest
so that the students could observe,interview, kind of talk through,
ask questions about developmental stages,and kind of see it, see it play out.

(48:54):
And often, just as we talked about today -
also we talked about in our last episode -kind of this, there's
this bias, age biaskind of shows up. Right?
- Yup.
And whether that's younger or older,but especially older
as we're thinking aboutour older demographics.

(49:15):
And, one of the things that we know
about research,and you mentioned this prior, is that,
if we have a negative view of older folks,as you age, you have worse
health, you have worsewellness overall and outcomes.
And the flip of that is also positiveor is also true meaning

(49:35):
if you start to believeor you start to see yourself,
and think of yourself as older,
and kind of envisionthat you have better health outcomes.
And so one of the things that I used to do
was I would take pictures, individualpictures of every student in my class,
and I would use Face Tuneand I'd age them up

(49:56):
and I'd have themand I'd give them to each of them,
and I'd have this whole spiel about ageand talking through and having them
kind of sit and visualize themselvesas an older person.
Almost every single timeI would even see my own picture.
And we can, for those of youthat are on the the video podcast,

(50:19):
you all can see my picture.Every time I see her,
I just, I tear up a little bit,because I just I'm excited
about that aging process.I'm excited to see that.
But one of the things --
So dressing up as Sophia likethis must be really nice for you.
Dressing up as Sophia is very nice!
And this is a whole tangentaround Sophia that it
also makes me feel very connectedto my own grandmother and,

(50:42):
- Your Sicilian grandmother?- My Sicilian grandmother,
and my nonnas andmy great grandmother.
So that's that's a tangent.
But yeah, I love seeing myself aged up,seeing myself as that person.
But one of the things that - another thing,like I said - we bring in guests
and every year I would bring in my two
of my most favorite peoplein the whole world,

(51:05):
are these two women that I metwhen I lived in Baltimore
that were part of this organizationthat I was part of called the HONS.
H-O-N-S like short for honey.
And they were Bonnie and Judy,and every year
they were the hit of the class.
So it was like the thing that everybody --(laughing)

(51:25):
I like, you know,it's wasn't about me
or anything that I brought,but Bonnie and Judy every single time
was something that everybody leftjust feeling so great about,
because they would come virtuallyand just being able to see their
zest for lifeand how involved they were

(51:46):
- they are - in their communityand what they do and how they talk
about age in how they talk about likeage is just a number.
Like that's a limitation.
This is about like, what do you do withyour time in your world and your work?
And they just have such an effervescenceand vibrant life and way

(52:09):
of holding themselves and interactingthat it was … Every single time!
It was something that shifted my students
perspective on what it meant to be agingand to be over 65,
and that they were just - every single time,without fail -
my students would be like,can they be my auntie?
Can they be my grandma?

(52:29):
I want to be them!
(Both) I want to be their best friend.
I want to be them when I grow up.
And, same because they're incredible.
And I'll share some pictures of themas well.
They’re just so great.
So, I think that that was something
that I always lovedand will continue to hold very dear to me.

(52:50):
Oh. That's beautiful. I love it.- Yeah.
All right.
So next segment in this season finale,
season two finale, is our question.
- Yes!
And so this is a question, thank you,multiple people for sending it in.
It's actually one we got on repeat.
I’m sure we've mentioned this concept before,but yeah, we never really unpacked it.

(53:12):
And so the questionsummarized across these two,
actually I think it's threepeople who submitted it.
What about imposter syndrome?
So, I'm going to phrase thisas what is imposter syndrome?
And the way we got the question was,how do you cope with imposter syndrome,
especially considering that it, tendsto be exacerbated
for people of color,people who are minoritized or stigmatized.

(53:36):
We use a lot of terms to
characterize members are not part ofthe historically more powerful group.
So, you want to take a start with that?
- Yeah, so --
So explain for our viewers and listenerswho don't know what imposter syndrome is.
- Yeah.- And then expand.
Yeah. Imposter syndrome reallyis this idea that

(53:57):
kind of feeling like I am not - I don't have enough expertise.
I should not be where I am. Right?
Or like something …there was some mistake.
- Yes.
Like so for a graduate student
who gets has been acceptedto, let's say, a PhD or PsyD program
and they're there. They're with everyone else.
They start feeling like everyoneelse is so much smarter than me.
Any day they're going to figure outthat they made a mistake.

(54:19):
And I'm not supposed to be here.Kind of worried that you are
an imposter in a spacewhere maybe actually you're not.
And you do belong.- You made it here.
You deserve to be therebecause you are.
Right. Exactly, exactly.
And yeah, 100%.
And thinking back to a conversationI had with a student
who really struggled with that because

(54:39):
they happened to be on the waitlistand then ended up getting in.
And so they were always secondguessing everything
and feeling likeeverybody was better than them.
Everybody knows thatthey were on the waitlist, and I was like,
no, but there's so many qualified people.
Being on the waitlistdid not mean that you were less than.
And you're here.
Like, there's so many reasons.

(55:00):
So, when it comes to how do we handle it?
First of all, my biggest thing,
is acknowledging and validatingthat it's a real thing
and that it's okay to feel that and thatyou're not the only one that feels it.
In fact, nearly everyone feels it sometimes.
Nearly everyone feels it.
And I always say like, it's also somethingthat may not totally go away either.

(55:25):
That like,
I had a colleaguethat was in my department
for more than 30 years, like literallywas one of the first faculty members
that started that programand continues to be there.
And I was like,maybe once you're at the status,
maybe you don't feel it,but I've had other colleagues that like,

(55:45):
you know, that I just respectand see they have done incredible things.
And I'm like, man, imposter syndrome.
Like, I don't know.
Are you sure you want me to talk about this?
Are you sure you want to bring me on?
And they're like, girl, yeah,you have so much to offer.
And I was like, yeah,but this imposter syndrome, like, well,
I have imposter syndrome.
And I go and I'm like, wow.
Like, you have done so muchand you've made such a huge contribution.

(56:10):
What do you meanyou have imposter syndrome?
So I say all of that to saythat even folks that you might look up to,
even those that have contributedand have done a lot
like for you and people, other peoplethat have just really done so much
that they likely have hador have struggled
or have imposter syndrome, that it mightcome up every so often and that it's

(56:30):
okay to feel that that has happenedor that you feel that way.
So first of all, validatingthat it's a real thing
and it's okay to have felt that wayor to feel that way.
The second is my personal approach
is recognizing that I don't -
and we've talked about thislast season -
I don't ever see myself as an expert.

(56:53):
Right?- Right.
Or taking on this internal monikerthat I have -
I know all of the things about all of the things.
- You like to say you're an expertin having the conversation.
I'm an expert in having the conversationand that I can,
which means I will alwayshave room to grow, which means
there will always be somebodythat knows something else that I don't,

(57:15):
and I'm always opento hearing what that is.
And when I can go into that spaceand take up space
meaning, share my perspective,share the knowledge that I do have.
Impart the knowledge that I have, whilealso maintaining openness to receiving
more information, correctionor new new information that I didn't know.

(57:36):
That allows me the space to say, like,I'm not coming
into a space saying I know everything.
And so being willing and open to receive
and say, like somebody elsemight know more than me and that's great.
Like, I love doing that with my studentsis coming in and saying, like,
y'all are experts in your own experience.
Y'all are experts in some,
you know, have informationand knowledge that maybe I don't have.

(58:00):
And I want you to share that with me too.
Yeah.
Kind of relatedly, a littlea little tangentially, but I think
it will be worthwhile to say,
one thing my PhD advisor usedto always say to our students
is, you know,the ideas we're working with,
the theories we're testing,the way we've designed our study,
these are the best ideas we've had so far.

(58:21):
- … To this point.Yeah.
And, and we would say thatin the context of encouraging them
to speak up about their ideas,
because maybe they'll have an insightthat we haven't had yet.
And, you know, they're the best ideasthat we are working with
that we've had so far.
But having more conversationsand insights from people
who might be worriedthat they don't belong,

(58:42):
that might be exactlywhat's needed to generate a new idea.
As we were kind of talking aboutlast episode with the diverse perspectives,
- Mmhmm.
are how we have creativity and innovation.
- Yep.
And again, that our unique lifeexperience, our unique perspective,
our training, all of those things combined,our identity is our superpower. Right?

(59:05):
And that that is somethingthat is worth being shared.
And even if you aren’t the only personwho can give this education
or take this spot or do these things,doesn't mean that you are undeserving.
Just because somebody else
has the same qualifications doesn't meanthat you don't deserve to be in that space
and be the one giving voice to whatever,or having that job,

(59:27):
or being that presenteror giving that training.
And I think, one other piece of guidanceI'd like to give to anyone
who's kind of feeling the impostersyndrome kind of feelings,
and I'm going to need your help
to give this advice properlyfrom your therapy background,
but also identify the differencebetween imposter syndrome versus
kind of your body and your mindtelling you that something's not right.

(59:50):
Like maybe that being in this placeisn't what's right for you because
that's a different thing that
they can be similar feelings like, oh,I don't belong here
because I'm not good enough.
That's imposter syndrome or or, you know,they made some kind of mistake.
I am an imposter.
Versus:
This is a space that is not -

(01:00:11):
it's not cultivating
belonging for me, like we were talkingabout last episode. Or,
maybe it's not the right professionfor me.
Like, maybe I got in my idea thatI was supposed to be a therapist,
like in your case,and then actually doing the work.
It doesn't feel the wayI thought it would feel.
I'm not doing the stuffI thought I would do.
And and those are the latter.

(01:00:32):
The not imposter syndrome kind of feeling
is something that we all also have to deal with,finding our place in the world,
finding our career,or even the type of -
like within the broader career of,say, psychology, which we both
would fall under - you know,someone might be doing more practice
kind of work, practitioner work,like we often say with you and maybe
they're more suited to scientific workor vice versa.

(01:00:55):
I had a colleague in graduate schoolwho was a cognitive psychologist in neuroscience
so very like 100% research,not at all clinical practice.
And just kind of
kept running into walls and obstaclesand things weren't feeling right.
Having some mental health issueswhich were specifically related
to the work,not just because she had them in general.

(01:01:18):
Right.
- And ultimately what it was is, you know,she was in psychology because she cared
about people and understanding how brainsinfluence behavior and all of that.
But what she wantedwas the helping people.
And she thought, you know,and research,
psychological research helps people too,but it's a different stage of the process.
It's we're figuring out what's happening,

(01:01:38):
and then we make publicationsand scientists like me
maybe do publicationsthat therapists like you
can then apply, but for her,it wasn't actually that she didn't belong.
It's that she hadn't found the right area.
Even just within the same field.
- Yes.
So, I dunno know, lawyers,I imagine, could have the same thing.
They're practicing the wrong kind of law.
That doesn't really matchwhy they went to law school.

(01:01:58):
Sometimes we trip into pathways.
People trip into paths.
That just seems like,oh, here's what the next stage is
according to a teacher or someone,when really they're not listening
to what their body is telling themwhat their soul care or soul …
What was the other term?- Attunement.
Soul attunement.Soul cultivation
and nourishment is telling themthey should be doing.

(01:02:20):
Yeah, that is an incredible point.
And one that I often have with folksis they're sitting with like
struggling with, do I continuein this field or continue in this grad school,
grad school is hard or whateveris sitting with that and saying like, hey,
give yourself permissionthat if this isn't what you want

(01:02:41):
or if this isn't fitting
where you're actually going,or there's something about this that is,
yeah,
is is telling you that it's not for me.
Not just because it's hard or I'm feelinglike an imposter and I don't belong,
but this is - it's not actually satisfying
the thing that I feel likeI'm supposed to be doing then,

(01:03:02):
or the space itselfis something that may be harmful
toward to you or to your identity,is not cultivating belonging,
it is something that like, feels likeit doesn't fit.
Rather than,
there was a mistake about me being here.
There's no way
I can meet their expectations. Right?
Those are two very differentinternal experiences.

(01:03:25):
And giving yourself the moment that timeto step back and say, like, where is this?
Like we've said several, several times,where is this coming from?
Which one?
And I think making that distinguishingthat distinguish that … marker?
- Distinction?
Distinction.Thank you.
What's the word I'm trying to say?
Distinction is incredibly important.
And it can also beyou know, we were talking about it's

(01:03:47):
the space like the organization.
It can also be a specific person.- 100%!
So, I am thinking of the instancewith a colleague
that I kind of gave that advice to this effect,that's where this is coming from.
I was recently talking to them about this.
They weren't feeling good about a project.
And so they were listeningto a signal from their body.
They were like,just don't want to do this project.
And but when they lookedat the details of the project,

(01:04:07):
it was somethingthey were passionate about.
And I helped them see, like, well,the project is with person X.
Yeah. Yes.
Imagine that
they were swapped out of the projectand it was me in there.
Or this is someone who knows youand it was imagine it was Amber.
Would you feel differentlyabout the project? They were like, oh,
and it was
someone who they felt like,with the two of them,

(01:04:30):
they would do all the work and the otherperson would kind of take all the credit.
And it was like, oh, it's not thatthere's something wrong with this project
or that I'm in the wrong role.

It's (01:04:38):
I don't want to work with this person.
- Right. Yeah.
And and this, that'sjust another variation
on figuring out where the feelingsare coming from with imposter syndrome.
I think recognizing thatalmost everyone faces it sometimes.
- 100%
I also want to say it's something you saidlast episode. You --
Someone called you arrogant.I believe was your thing.
And you were like, am I arrogant?

(01:04:59):
And I was like, well, it's kind of
if you're wondering if you're arrogant,odds are you're probably not, because that
that requires some humilityto even ask that sort of question.
Imposter syndrome is kind of similar,like wondering if you're an imposter,
you’re being thoughtful about whereyou are and so on.
And I think, you know, it's a feeling.
Here comes a feeling.
- Here comes a feeling. Here comes a thought.

(01:05:19):
And you can let it be
the leaf on the river.
- Yes. Yep.
I’m messing up your therapy phrases a little bit, but,
you can accept that the feeling happened,and you can let it go.
Yes. Yeah.
And it is.
It is hard to do that. It is hard when
the feeling comes up and
to come back to minoritized and,and oppressed or underrepresented groups

(01:05:42):
that we also have this kind of internalin group communication
that we have to be the bestor have to be better
than others in order to havethat recognition, to have those things.
So I want to acknowledgethat there's also some other
underlying thingsthat kind of push that feeling.
Or amplify that as well.

(01:06:02):
And also,
when you're looking aroundand most of the other people
in the similar role don't look like you,or if you're LGBT and they're straight
or aged, get getting back to our kind of,discussion theme.
That's also a signalthat your brain might be like, oh,
I feel like I don't belong,but it's because of a demographic thing,
not because of ability.- Right.
So the biases we always talk about,about bias against someone else

(01:06:25):
thinking they, don't have the abilityor don't whatever.
You're doing that to yourself.
- Right.
So (stammering) that can happen.
You can do that to yourself.
So watch out.- Yes.
Watch out!- Watch out, watch out.
Excellent.
Well, yeah, I think that's a topicthat we could probably talk a lot
about when it comes to impostersyndrome taking up space.

(01:06:46):
And perhaps we will talk more about thatnext season.
Yeah.
And if you have more thoughtsor there was some aspect of it
that you think you think we got wrong.
As Amber was saying before,
we're always opento hearing different perspectives
or additional details - like I'mthere's a huge research literature on this.
There’s so much.
I know a lot of our listenershave felt this in, as evidenced,
if nothing else, by the fact that 2 or 3people sent in questions about this.

(01:07:09):
So send in more becauseI'm sure there are corners and aspects of
we didn't address.
And we can revisit it again.
- Absolutely, absolutely.
So in that vein, let'stalk about our skill.
- Awesome!
Habit-breaking skill to close that season two.
Our last skill of the season.
All right.
So this is one we've hit on beforein season one. But

(01:07:32):
we were looking back through it
and I didn't go into as much detailas I often do in discussing this.
And so there's a lot of roomto talk about more stuff.
So this is, one of those tools.

So we have our MATE acronym (01:07:43):
Motivation, Awareness, Tools, Effort.
This is one of the toolsthat helps reduce bias.
And it's onethat has different ways of using it.
And we've, we've covered themin a few different episodes.
So it's broaden your input,
but specifically broaden your inputvia the media.
Past episodes including some
this season we talked about broadeningyour input through contact.

(01:08:03):
So through actual making real connectionswith and becoming friends with people,
broadening your inputthrough images in the environment.
So things like art, website pictures,and so on.
This is broadeningyour input through the media.
This is things like books,movies, TV shows.
Although the media can give usvery kind of narrow, stereotyped
views of members of different groups,if we put in the effort to seek out

(01:08:25):
media where people are actually tellingtheir own stories.
So stories by Black authors,Black creators, Black movie makers,
and same for LGBT, Asian,every kind of group, any kind of group
about which you want to workon your biases, get media
that's from members of those groupstelling their stories.
This is something we emphasize
every episode in our joyful recommendationat the end,

(01:08:48):
and as we emphasize inour recommendation at the end,
it’s not necessarily the case that it hasto be quote unquote, educational media.
It doesn't necessarily have to besomething that's really digging
into the deepest, hardest, most painfulaspects of a minoritized identity.
It can be something that's fun and joyfulbecause part of what you're doing

(01:09:11):
is you're giving your brain input that'sdifferent from the narrow stereotypes,
because the more you empathize
with characters from that group,the more you get to know them -
even if they're fictional -
feel their feelings, understandtheir fears and hopes and dreams.
All of that puts stuff into your brainthat pushes back against the biases.
And this is something that streamingservices help us with these days.

(01:09:34):
So, most TV streaming servicesnow have sections like
Stories that Honor Black Livesor Queer Stories to
enrich our understanding ofthe LGBT community.
And so they have sections for storiesby different kinds of creators.
AAPI Stories.
Yes, Asian American and Pacific Islanderstories, AAPI.
Make use of those things when you're boredand just trying to pick something new

(01:09:57):
you know, get it from,from a community that's not your own.
Yep.
Another good way to dothis is through podcasts.
- Yeah!
I mean, we're on a podcast,so we should mention it.
And I'm not just mentioning itbecause we are podcasters now.
- Right. Right.
For years and years and yearsbefore we ever thought
to start this podcast, I would say thatpodcasts are a good way to do this.
One thing that's nice about podcastsis that compared to like

(01:10:20):
TV shows and movies,they're relatively inexpensive to produce
and so this means that you can findpodcasts that are …
the ecosystem of podcastshas a lot more representation
of underrepresented groupscompared to TV and movies and so on.
So you can find a podcastthat's just about something
you're naturally interested in.

(01:10:41):
If you like gardening,if you like football, if you like horror movies,
whatever the things arethat tickle your fancy,
you can probably find a podcastthat's from the perspective of someone
who's different from you talking aboutthat thing you’re into.
- Right.
For instance,
longtime listeners of the podcastknow that I'm really into gardening.
- Mmhmm.
And many years ago, when I was givingthe bias habit-breaking training,

(01:11:02):
I'd mentioned that for some reasonand an audience member sent me
a podcast episode. And it'stwo Black ladies talking about gardening.
It's an episode of the podcast“Brown Mama Blueprint”.
As these two Black ladiestalking about gardening.
And I'm able to listen to itjust because I like gardening,
I'm able to hear about weeding techniquesor different kinds of plants or,

(01:11:24):
and, and
they talk about all that kind of stuff,but also they talk about their lives.
They talk about current events,they talk about things happening to them.
So I'm able to get input related to -I essentially get to know
these two Black women. In a one sided way.
But the same way you've all gottento know us through this podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
And so getting to know those women,
how they see the world,how they think about things,
all that's this input that pushes backagainst narrow stereotypes.

(01:11:47):
In the case of gardening, for instance,they brought up how as Black women,
their relationship with gardeningin the earth was kind of complicated
because of how enslaved Black folkswere used to do agriculture.
- Right.
And so, you know, sometimesit kind of gives them reminders of that.
And it's a little uncomfortable,but also the kind of stress relief

(01:12:08):
that touching soil and being with plants,what it what it does for them.
So they're able to admitthat kind of ambiguity.
- Yeah.- And that “both/and”-ness.
We're giving you allthose “Diverse Joy” bingos!
All the bingo words!
Let’s also say …
Disney, Star Wars,
(both) Drag queens.
(Laughing)

(01:12:29):
So hopefully someone got a bingo.
But but

I'm able to listen to these things: podcasts, TV shows, whatever. (01:12:33):
undefined
They’re enriching and entertaining,but also do some of that work
to reduce bias just because we're talkingabout other podcasts, apparently.
But, but,but also this is these are examples
that help people learnwhy this skill can be important.
So longtime listenersknow I really love “Star Trek”.

(01:12:54):
- Yes.
There's a “Star Trek” podcast,it’s the official “Star Trek” podcast
called “Star Trek The Pod Directive”.
Hosted by … what’s the White guy’s name?
(Producer Eric Roman) Paul F. Tompkins and Tawny Newsome.
Hosted by Paul F. Tompkinsand Tawny Newsome.
I knew Tawny Newsome.Tawny Newsome is hilarious.
She's a comedian.
She's the best.She's also an actor on “Star Trek”.

(01:13:14):
They did a special episode talkingabout kind of Black folks and “Star Trek”.
- Yeah.
And it was with Tawny Newsome and another Black actress
from “Star Trek” named Michelle Hurd,who I love.
And Roman is in love with her, too.
But they talked about their relationshipwith “Star Trek” both being kind of
on camera in it and loving it beforethey were being on camera.
As they talked through that,they actually brought up some of

(01:13:36):
our bias habit-breaking skills.
Now they weren't using our -they weren't talking about me or our work,
but they were explainingkind of, things like norm enforcement.
That's one of the skillswe had in season one
that we'll revisit soon in season three,I'm sure.
And basically types of bias,ways it plays out.
They weren't using the exact terms
that we used in the training,but they were providing examples.

(01:13:57):
The same concepts, yeah.
So someone who kind of tookmy recommendation maybe would listen,
perhaps listen to that podcast
they get re-exposure tosome of these things we're talking about.
Just like every episode we share ourstories, things that have happened to us.
When you're consuming media
that is from the perspective of peoplewho are different from you,
sometimes those things are going tocome out, come up.

(01:14:19):
So it's going to enhance the skills workthat we've been teaching
throughout this podcastand will continue to do.
- Yeah.
So, so yes.
I don’t know; anything else youwant to share about kind of
consuming media to broaden your input?
Yeah.
Well you know I think we've,
we have brought up in a broadeningour input in different ways.

(01:14:39):
But I think those are ways that I havepersonally also broadened my own input.
Right?
And training my algorithmto show me different things! (Laughs)
And if you were to look at my algorithm,you might make assumptions
about who I am,which would probably not be accurate,
because I really try to bevery intentional about the types of media

(01:15:01):
and the folks that I follow,the types of videos that I watch.
So a lot of my algorithm thinks I mightbe pregnant or need tampons or pads
or various things that people withfallopian tubes might need.
- Yes.
I think because I watch a lot of,like, female empowerment and
girl power kind of stuff, it thinks I might …

(01:15:24):
- Right, right.
… need that kind of stuff.
My algorithm has all kinds of thoughts.
I think it depends on the day of
who they think I am.
And I'm okay with that.
I love that I get such a varietyof types of videos on my feed.
But I think one of the thingsthat you said that's really important
about it is also that it doesn'thave to be about diversity, right?

(01:15:47):
Like I do also follow a lot of those,those types
of, of, you know, influencers.
But you know,I love Disney bounding. Right?
And I love Disney.
And so I'll follow creatorsthat have disabilities and folks that,
you know, that are Asian or Hispanicor have different or Latinx,

(01:16:09):
I should say, excuse me,
that have different backgrounds,but also do the thing that I love
so that we can
we can - I can just see other peopledoing the things that I enjoy doing.
- Yeah.- And so books. Right?
Again, booksthat are by diverse authors or authors
that have a different background than you
but aren't necessarily, again,about diverse perspectives

(01:16:30):
or even or even center a specific,you know, demographic or identity.
But knowing that this is a diverse author
means something and it gives you this -
again, it broadens this like - allows -
I think we talked about a skill and you’llto give me the words for what it is, but,
really just looking for the commonalities,right, of saying that,

(01:16:54):
wow, this is a diverse author,a Black author,
and this has nothing to do about
being Black, but this is a really greatsci fi book or whatever that is.
That it also just it, it broadens
our view on understanding of peoplenot just adding a new perspective,
but also reinforcing that, like,
man, you have a lot in common too, right?

(01:17:16):
And not just what's different,but also what's in common.
- Absolutely. Yeah.
I mean, I think that as far as you'reasking for the wording, it’s the broaden your input.
So we’re we’re already on it.
Yeah. Yeah, we got it.
Yeah, yeah.And the broadening of the input.
Yeah.
It's not justoh this is counter stereotypical example.
- Right.
Like not everyone's going to be and
and you know the stereotypesthey exist and people exist

(01:17:38):
and there's some stereotypeswe match and some we don't match.
And that's, that's just how it is.
- Right.
But it's not letting the stereotypes be
how you make a decision about someoneinstead making the decisions,
judgment, the impressionand based on who they actually are.
- Absolutely.- Yeah.

(01:17:58):
So yeah, broaden your inputthrough the media, through the media.
And, you know, if you have some successdoing that, if you find,
social media accountsyou follow that help you do that,
send them in because we can kind of
send them out even more broadlyto the other listeners.
You were you were talking about thethe different kind of Instagram accounts
or whatever.
- Yeah.

(01:18:19):
I have a lot of Black superhero accountswhere it's like cosplayers
doing superheroes that somehow
the algorithm sent to me and was like,oh, yeah, follow this.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's definitely something.
So, I mentioned in a previous episode,I didn't used to do Instagram,
but I had to start because of the podcastduring season one.
And it started offwith a lot of stuff with Amber.

(01:18:39):
So I think Amber’s algorithmsprobably leaked into mine.
So I think it thought I was aBlack woman maybe, or something,
but because that was the starting point,then, then I was able to build this
more diverse thing than if it had knownexactly who I was from the start or,
or something.
I don't know how these algorithmswork necessarily, but but yeah.
So, yeah.

(01:18:59):
Broaden your input through intentional
media consumption.
I love that, I love that,and maybe we can, like you said,
create some lists of some content that we follow
and, and consume to share with folksthat are interested.
Yeah, yeah.
Follow us @DiverseJoy on Instagram,on Threads, on X - formerly Twitter.

(01:19:24):
And then the Diverse Joy page on Facebook,
which is facebook.com/DiverseJoyPodcast
- I love it. Excellent.
Well, as we round outand end our last episode of the season,
our second season,which has just been amazing.
This is always such a great timeto just sit and have all of our really

(01:19:49):
great conversations and discussions,
that we ended with our sandwich.
The other piece of the breadfor our sandwich, which is
a joyful recommendation.
Will, what is our lastrecommendation of the season?
It is what we're dressed as.
The TV shows:
“The Golden Girls” and its sequel series“The Golden Palace”,

(01:20:11):
which often doesn't get as much attention,but it’s actually pretty good.
So, you know, “Golden Girls”,
oh, man.
What can I say about “The Golden Girls”?
It was ahead of its time.
It is also timeless and still timely.
It's imperfect, but nevertheless a
really dang good job onmany diversity topics.

(01:20:32):
It was in the 80s.
It's not perfect, but the LGBT inclusion,it had a same sex wedding.
- Yeah.
There's an episode that I put in my noteswhen I watched it.
It's called “Valentine's Day”.
It has Blanche saying a phrase that we saya lot these days, which is just:
Love is love.
About a same sex romance.

(01:20:54):
Had severalgreat gay and lesbian episodes.
Again, not perfect.
It had some very extraordinarily stereotypicalflamboyant gay characters sometimes.
But but good.
Had a great interracial marriage episodewhere Dorothy's son
marries, is marrying a Black woman,and she's fine with the woman being Black.

(01:21:16):
But then it's also a Black older woman.
So getting the generationkind of biases like we're talking about.
So Dorothy had a problem with the her sonmarrying an older woman, but
then, the woman's family had a problemwith her marrying a White boy.
- White boy. Yeah (laughs).
And so that was an interesting dynamic
that you got to see unfoldand wrestle with issues.

(01:21:37):
A lot of issues related to sex and aging.
I think a lot of the general consensus isthey were able to get away with talking
about a lot of sexual thingsthat other shows
probably couldn't,because they were older ladies.
And, you know, it
always has had a huge gay following.
The LGBT community,I think, really has adopted it

(01:21:58):
that, oh, there's a trans characterI forgot about that.
And, anyway,there's all kinds of good nuggets.
So check it.
It is hilarious.
It's definitely one of my comfort showsthat I can just leave on and go back to
and enjoy.
And I still laugh out loud atso many of the things. Some areas

it's not perfect that I should acknowledge: there a little bit fat shame-y, (01:22:20):
undefined
so they tend to makefat jokes at one another
that now we would kind of be like,let's not do that.
That's definitely representativeof the time, too.
Yeah. Yeah.
One other little personal tidbit.
You know, when Ezra was a puppy.
So going back to my joy, this episode,

(01:22:41):
one of the thingsthat some of the behavioral scientists
who are dog behavioral scientistssay is, you know, leaving some TV on,
they they'll feel a little bit less alonehaving the sounds,
when you have to leave them and“Golden Girls” is what we left on for him.
(Laughing)
So he also loves “The Golden Girls”.
Or actually, he might dislike it.
Because when we were leaving.- When you were leaving. That’s fair.

(01:23:03):
But but yeah.
And it's also just a -it is really, truly is a --
it's been a whilesince I've really watched it.
Intentionally watched it.
But it's definitely a show thatI grew up watching.
And I have a huge affinity for, becauseI was watching with my grandmother.
And like I said earlier,that they remind me of my …

(01:23:27):
- Your nonna?
… my nonna, my grandmothers, and, you know,
I'm Sicilian, and that's where
(Both) Sophia’s from.
Sicily.
Picture it. Sicily, 1912.
And so I just, I, I personally really love
and I need to rewatch itand I also have never seen “Golden Palace”.

(01:23:47):
It's on Disney+ and Hulu now.
So I'm going to have toI'm going to have to watch that.
But it has young Don Cheadle,
as a main character.
- Aw, Don Cheadle!
And …oh, Cheech, Cheech Marin.
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah.Oh, that's so fun.
That's so fun.
Unless it’s Chong?It's one of the two.
I'm pretty sure it's Cheech.- Yeah, yeah.

(01:24:07):
And so, yeah, it'sgot all kinds of representation.
And then on top of ourtheme for this episode,
really the age representationtoo, right? And,
talking about, like,and you mentioned sex,
which I didn't talk about earlieron, but like, you know,
just because you're older doesn'tmean that that's not part of your life.
And, and that kind of counteracts

(01:24:28):
some of those stereotypes as wellthat we have of older folks.
And just because it's an older show,doesn't mean the messages and the themes
don’t still apply.
So we definitely recommendwatching “The Golden Girls” and “The Golden Palace”.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And with that,I got to take ma here back to Shady Pines.

(01:24:49):
Back to Shady Pines.
But first we're. Going to gohave some cheesecake.
Ooh, cheesecake.
(Both laughing)
I'm Dr. William Taylor Laimaka Cox.
And I am Dr. Amber Leanne Nelson.
“Diverse Joy” is produced by Eric Roman Beiningwho does so much great work.
Thank you, Roman.
Incredible work.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
With music by Jay Arner.

(01:25:10):
It is accessible as a videopodcast on YouTube
or an audio-only podcast whereveryou get podcasts or at DiverseJoy.com.
Follow us @DiverseJoyon most social media platforms.
If you enjoy the show, help us reachmore people by leaving five star reviews
or recommending it personally.
With this episode out,there are now 28 episodes!

(01:25:33):
Two 14 episode seasons!
And, you know, unlike other podcasts
which are a little more casual,we as we said earlier,
we really plan these outso that each topic, you know,
people are learning something new
and it offers new thingsthat you can discuss and expand on.
We really, designed this to fueladditional reflection, discussion.
And we designed this for workplacesalso to use as a diversity activity.

(01:25:57):
With that on the website, DiverseJoy.com,
with each episode,
we post discussion and reflection itemsthat go with the episodes.
So if you haven't checked out the websiteand the pages for each episode,
but you want to kindof do more, check that out.
And recommending it to
other people is the number one waythat it's going to reach more people.
Also leave five star reviews if I didn'talready say that or “like”, “subscribe”,

(01:26:20):
all that kind of stuff helps out.
- All the social media things.- Yeah.
“Diverse Joy” is the official podcast
of our nonprofit,which is called Inequity Agents of Change.
It's a nonprofitdevoted to evidence based approaches
to reduce bias, create inclusion,and promote equity.
All that good JEDI work!
We put out a lot of other resourcesas well, educational videos,

(01:26:43):
supplies that are free forworkplaces to use
are built on this foundation of thebias habit-breaking training.
We also continue our research on thebias habit-breaking training
to refine it, continue testing it.
Disseminating it in new formats, which you canusually learn about on that website.
So learn more at Bias habit.com.
Thank you forjoining us for this season two. Now:

(01:27:06):
(Both) Go find your joy! Bye bye.
See you next season.

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