S3E02: The Brain’s Wicked Reward System and Overcoming Stereotypes for Good

In excitement for the release of the movie Wicked: For Good later this month, Amber and Will are dressed as Elfie and Guy-linda from Wicked! Will’s joy this month is Heels and Wheels, a disability-inclusive dance group in Madison, Wisconsin. Amber’s joy is the power of Wicked The Musical and especially the movie starring Cynthia Erivo, which brings a new depth of feeling to the character of Elphaba as portrayed by a Black woman, and especially her experience of the Pet-to-Threat phenomenon. Amber also adored going to a sing-along screening of Wicked: Part 1 with her family! This episode’s discussion topic involves the science behind the brain’s reward system and how it is involved in stereotyping and bias. Stereotypes lead to probabilistically uncertain predictions, and when those predictions are upheld, it engages your brain’s reward system. This is sometimes called “intermittent reinforcement”, which is the most difficult learning pattern to overcome. We can all work on trying to recognize that we might have positive emotional reactions when stereotypes are upheld, and frustrated emotional reactions when stereotypes or predictions are disrupted–those are fundamental building blocks for understanding and undermining bias habits. Finding pleasure (e.g., joy!) in things that oppose stereotypes and bias can help work against these neural processes and improve diversity and inclusion. During story time, Will shares a story about someone who used a rude statement to try to prove stereotypes are true. Amber’s more positive story was about her summer camp’s commitment to diversity and their statement regarding gender inclusion that embraces transgender and nonbinary identities. Continuing from the Wicked discussion, this episode’s question revisits the Pet-to-Threat phenomenon we talked about in Season 2, Episode 13, and discuss what other factors sometimes drive diverse people out of career paths, especially academic careers.  For the bias habit-breaking skill, this time we’re talking Impression Justification, which involves having a “good gut feeling” when someone matches stereotypes or “bad gut feeling” when someone mismatches stereotypes. Those gut feelings then become lenses that color your judgments.  Amber’s joyful recommendation is everything related to Oz, including The Wizard of Oz, Wicked, Return to Oz, The Wiz, and all of Frank L. Baum’s books!

Dr. Cox’s book becomes available for preorder! The publisher is University of California Press, and the full title is Overcoming Bias Habits: An Evidence-Based Guide to Creating a Joyfully Inclusive World.

Check your small local bookstores!

From Amazon: https://a.co/d/iwnakbM

From Barnes and Noble: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/overcoming-bias-habits-william-t-l-cox-phd/1148276458?ean=9780520410428

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- Just for fun.
And my co-host, well, is blond.
Toss, toss!
(Amber giggling)
The wonderful and pink-cladin all his bubbly glory.

(01:06):
Dr. William T. L. Cox.
Also known as “Guy-linda.”- Guy-linda, yes.
(Both laughing)
Awesome!
So as we start episode two, Will tell us about your joy.
My joy for this month, since we were,
dressing up for “Wicked”.

(01:27):
So, sometime … it was
either early this year or late last year -we mentioned last episode -
“Diverse Joy” got ranked in the top5% of all podcasts in the world.
So exciting.
And we have listeners and viewersfrom all over the world.
We can see that in our statistics,which is really cool.
But after we got that kind of honor,I realized, you know,
we've never specifically promotedit here in Madison where we actually make it.

(01:50):
(Both laughing)
So producer Eric Roman and I have been to, like,five different pride festivals.
Disability Pride.
This wonderful thing called the Big GayMarket that we have every few months here.
Just to do moreoutreach in our community.
And one of the really cool things,that has happened with that, you know,
getting to talk to peopleand people are interested in what we do.

(02:10):
A lot of people really complimentedthe “Diverse Joy” logo,
the lollipops that are on the coverthat Eric Roman made.
And at one of the events,this was at Disability Pride.
There was kind of a dance companyand it's called Heels & Wheels.
- I love that.
And it's a dance companythat's inclusive for people in wheelchairs

(02:30):
and with other kind ofphysical accommodations needs.
And it was so cool.
And they did a “Defying Gravity” numberwhere their Elphaba was also
painted green -like Amber is today -but in a wheelchair.
And actually doing like, acrobatics,
aerial work in the wheelchairwith her partner who was a Glinda.

(02:50):
And it was really, really cool.
And we got to talk to them,and they came by our booth,
and they were a lot of fun
and Roman got some video that maybewe'll be able to stick in for the
video watchers, but,yeah, that was my joy.
- I love it.
That's so cool.
And my - I think that weneed to have and see
so much more inclusive thingslike inclusive dance.

(03:12):
There’s a dancer that I follow on TikTok
who uses arm crutches.
And she was doing a lot of thedances from “Wicked”,
I think also really inspiredby their inclusion of
differently abled folks within the movieitself for representation sake.
So I love that! I love Heels & Wheels.And now I need to, like, go and

(03:36):
look them up and see them.
Yeah, we’ll definitely link themwith this episode and … Yeah!
And we have some video and pictures with them.
- Yeah! That’s so great.
So what about you, Amber?What's bringing you joy?
Well, as we were doing “Wicked”,I think “Wicked” -
the movie - brings us both joy.
And there's a lot to why that is.

(03:57):
I think for me,
seeing - I’ve seen the play so many times and, um, live.
And I always connected to it.
But watching the movie, this timewith Cynthia Erivo playing Elphaba
totally just hits different.
Having Elphaba played by a Black woman.

(04:18):
While the narrative was always there,it changed how it hit for me.
- Yeah!
And, so yes, my joy is “Wicked” itself.
But, specifically, I went andgot to see it in theater with my family,
and we did the sing-along version, and
it was just the best time.
And you probably have seen on TikTokand videos like the sing-along versions,

(04:43):
and it was just --the theater was not very crowded,
but it was really, really cool to seemy family, like, go and get into it.
And my sister-in-law and I were just likebelting out all of the songs.
We were just having the best time.
And she's somebody who,
like, doesn’t typically like musicals.
And she went and saw “Wicked” forthe first time and fell in love with it.

(05:07):
Awe!
And like, connected with the storyand connected
with all of what “Wicked” is.
And so like for months - I mean, it'sbeen a year now - just constantly
singing the soundtrack and like being able
to go and share in the soundtrack,
with everybody else in the theaterand singing along was one of my joys.

(05:30):
So yeah.- Yay!
So when I saw “Wicked” - I did notgo to the sing-along - but there was someone
sitting like a row behind uswho kept kind of singing under the songs.
- Yeah.- And I was just like, “Oh, shut up!”
Well, I think,
I think that's why they came outwith the sing-along version
was because there wereso many people in the theater
that had been listening to the soundtrack
on Spotify and other placesbefore the movie came out, that they were

(05:54):
just like quoting it and singingalong with it, that they were like,
“We should really just do a sing-alongversion so that those that want to sing it
can go and enjoy it, and everybody elsecan go and enjoy it” without,
you know, the intrusion of my voiceon top of Cynthia Erivo’s.
Nobody came there to listen to me!
(Both laughing)

(06:15):
but it was.
Yeah, it was it was really an amazingexperience.
The movie itself is just … and
just the themes.And honestly, to me
just a couple episodes,we talked about Pet to Threat
and I think that that's a big partof what this movie is!
Like, is this idea of Elphaba being kind of like

(06:37):
the Chosen One, right?
Like she's the one…
- She’s the “pet.”
She’s the “pet,”she's the one
that's going to like,“we're getting you to meet the wizard.”
And then we get thereand she speaks out about what
she sees going on,and then immediately becomes a threat.
And like, you know, like,this is the story, right?
And she immediately becomes a threat.

(06:58):
And so, yeah.
Anyway, it’s just beautiful,lovely, wonderful.
Since you brought that up,
so we're going to talk about
the recommendations at the end -whatever they're going to be!
- (Coyly) I wonder! - You all have to
to stay tuned to find out.- Stay tuned!
Guess what it might be.
But, a friend of the show,one of our listeners who,
and my movie night crew,when we watched “Wicked”, she, like,

(07:20):
kind of had
kind of PTSD sort of stuffwith some of the story because it
was talking about, you know, peoplegetting round up and like disappeared.
And she was like,
“This is really like politically some stuffthat's happening now.
I wasn't expecting that.”- Yeah.
Well, and the thing is, again,the theme has always been there.
- Yeah.
And the politics in the moviehas always been there and,

(07:45):
and all of a suddenlike being really intentional with
the casting and having aBlack woman play Elphaba
and this story about this girlwho has always been judged,
literally by the color of her skin,like how some of the like,
overarching themes kind of like eluded folksuntil a Black woman played the role.

(08:08):
For myself, even,but I wasn't like
connecting with it in the same wayas seeing it with Cynthia Erivo.
It's just, again, incredible.
I can't say enough about it. So, yeah.
So one of my ongoing joys
and cannot wait for part 2to come out, like, this month.
So, it's so exciting, so exciting.- Yay!

(08:31):
Awesome.
So, Will, let's talk about whatour talk is today.
Awesome.
Yeah.
So, every seasonwe have at least one episode
that kind of has a science-heavy lean,sometimes more.
And every episode, you know, we're talkingabout things that have been studied
and there is a good scientific backgroundto pretty much everything we talk about.

(08:54):
But anyway, this is that episode.
I’m going to talk about some of the scienceof how your brain's reward system works.
And how that ends upbeing one of the major driving forces
in stereotyping and bias andhow we can work on overcoming that.
A lot of times in kind ofin science and in academia,
people like to start offwith kind of a weird question that ends up

(09:15):
kind of revealing something interestingabout the topic that they study.
And so I'm going to doa little bit of that today.
So the weird questionis why do people like music?
- Hmmm.
So I want everyone to think about this
from a very kindof scientific perspective.
So things like liking food or sex,
they're very kind of biological drivenreasons for why we enjoy that.

(09:36):
But a lot of the thingspeople enjoy, including music,
but also things like puzzles and gamesand jokes and on and on and on.
There are also things
that at first glance,there isn't really a good reason for them.
Why would, you know,
a series of notes and words put togetherin a certain way give us pleasure?
What's the kind of biological basisfor that?

(09:56):
- Right.
And the reason is, it'swhat some people sometimes
call an artifactof how your brain's reward system works.
We learn to recognize patternsin our environments,
that was historically very importantfor survival.
So, a rat needs to realize, like,“Oh, when I hear this kind of sound,
it's a cat!”
It needs to recognizethat for survival.

(10:18):
And so our brains respondto patterns in the environment.
And so for music specifically, andthis is going to get to stereotyping and bias,
I promise!(Both laughing)
But for music specifically, whatends up happening when you listen to music
is you start recognizing the patternthat the song is taking.
So like the “dun dun duuun!”
And then you're like, “dun dun duuun!”You learn to expect it.

(10:38):
And so your brain is constantly generatingexpectations, predictions
that then the music kind of upholdsor surpasses,
the technical term this is calleda positive prediction error.
So you predictthat something's going to happen
and then it's even better, even morethan exactly what you're predicting.
And that engagesyour brain's reward system.

(10:59):
And so this is why music is pleasurable,
is why things like puzzles or jokesengage your brain's reward system.
Also something that is in playwith stereotyping and bias.
So stereotypes are a type of prediction,
or expectation that we have about people.
So we learn to expect that women are goingto be loving and nurturing,

(11:21):
and maybe men are going to be strongand stoic or something like that.
- Right.
And part of the thing with stereotypes is,
there's some people who happento match them and some people who don't.
Right.
Like if there's a Black guywho likes basketball,
he matches the stereotypeand there's nothing wrong with that.
That's great.You like basketball? Awesome.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But what that means is,as we go throughout our environments,

(11:43):
sometimes stereotypesare going to be upheld.
- Right.
And just like the notes in in a melody,in music,
when your expectation is upheld like that,it engages your brain's reward system.
In fact, with stereotypesthat kind of reward,
it's what we call intermittent reinforcementor intermittent reward.
And that is actually the strongest type

(12:05):
of reward learning that exists.
In all the research, it is thehardest learning pattern to break.
When you have an expectation, likemaybe “that a Black guy likes basketball”
and every once in a while you runinto a Black guy that likes basketball,
that learning patternends up being extremely hard to break.
And we see this in thingslike gambling addiction.
You know, you're pulling a slot machineand you know that most of the time

(12:28):
you're not going to win, but that one timeyou win, it feels really good.
And you're like, “Yes!”Same thing with stereotypes.
Cuz you're kind of like just waiting.
You're waiting for that …
- Anticipation.- … that anticipation.
And then the payoff, even a small one,then feels really rewarding.
Right.
And this can be kind of belowconscious awareness, too.

(12:49):
You know, your brain's doing thiswithout you consciously thinking,
“Oh, I'm making a prediction about this oneyoung Black child.”
It's not necessarilyalways that conscious,
but your brain's constantlymaking these predictions
and recording whetherthey're upheld or not.
- Right.
And with unp-- or, probabilisticallyuncertain things like stereotypes,
the reward learning is the strongest.
A colleague of mine, Dr. Nick Reggev.

(13:10):
I don't know if I'm saying his name right -
R-E-G-G-E-V -
actually did some of the research on this,
and he and I talked about it a lot
because it was one of my big areas ofstudy as well, and in some of his studies -
so he does fMRI brain studies where peopleare responding to different stimuli -
people actually liked stereotyping
more than they liked money,in his research studies.
So there are these trials in the study

(13:32):
where people basically got the opportunity
to look at someonewho confirmed stereotypes
or someone who didn't confirm stereotypes,and if they looked at the person
who didn't confirm stereotypes,they got more money.
- Wow.
But they actually stillpreferred the trials
that had less moneybut someone confirmed stereotypes.
And it was activatingthe same areas of your brain
that like monetary rewards,and other kind of rewards, activate.

(13:56):
Again, like you said that
this is operating belowour conscious awareness right?
- Most of the time, or a lot of the time.
A lot of the time, it is under under our awareness,which is again
why it's so reinforcing, right?
Like again, most people consciouslyis going to say,
“I'd much rather get the money than to reinforce a stereotype.”

(14:18):
Consciously but unintentionally.- Absolutely.
Like you talk about unintentional bias,right?
Like there's this unintentional desireto reinforce our, our bias.
Have your predictions upheld, yeah.
And an analogyI sort of think of is, you know, imagine --
So there's stereotypes that say,you know, “bad drivers are women,” right?

(14:38):
Let's imagine someone whokind of has that assumption.
Then someone cuts in front of them andthey see that the driver is a woman.
They're like, “Ah, I knew it!”- “I knew it.”
That kind of I ”knew it” feelingthat's what we're talking about here.
And the statistics actually saywomen are much better drivers than men.
They cause fewer accidents,they’re less likely to drive without a license,
and on and on.
In most objective statistics, womenare much safer, better drivers than men.

(15:02):
But the stereotype persists
because the one timeit happens to be a bad woman driver,
it reinforces in your mind.- Right.
And so this reward system engagement,we see it in stereotyping and bias,
in many ways for instance, in humor.
So there's a lot of talk in culturesometimes about like people making
like, stereotypical jokes or racistor sexist types of types of jokes.

(15:24):
Part of why those kinds of jokesare so easy
is because they're relyingon your preexisting expectations about,
“Oh, women being a bad driver”or whatever the stereotype is,
and it engages your reward system,which is what makes those jokes funny.
Yeah.
Also, if you remember,
we talked previously about “Black Panther”,the movie “Black Panther”.
And so when I was watching it,I at first had a little bit of a problem with it,

(15:46):
because the movie startswith some Black folks who are criminals
and playing basketball, and poor,
and an absent father, which are all thesestereotypes of the Black community.
- Right.
And I even knew a friend of a friendwho actually walked out of the movie
because she thoughtit was just too offensive.
- Like, “Mm. No.”
But then in the end, you know, of“Black Panther”, you get all these kind

(16:07):
of dynamic interacting things and thingsthat counteract the stereotypes as well.
And thinking about thisbrain reward system stuff, I'm like,
“That's actually really clever.”
Because you give people the brain’skind of reward expectations of
the stereotypes being upheld,
and then you're able to teach themsomething else with the rest of the movie.
And I was like, “Oh, that's really clever,”

(16:27):
because if they hadno stereotypicic stuff at all,
some people kind of wouldn'tengage with it the same way.
There would be an easier rejection, right?
Like this easier rejectionof not even acknowledging or seeing
maybe the parallel or thethe contrast I should say.
- Yeah. Yeah.
And so I've talked about this for years,published research on it.

(16:48):
But I think “Black Panther”is a really good example of
how they played with that.
And it does still leave us the questionof like,
“Well, but if they confirm the stereotypesthey're still feeding into that on some level.”
But also the pleasure peopleget out of the movie,
we could hope that the net effectis actually more positive,
even though it did a little bit of that.
And so what this meansfor your daily life,

(17:09):
like bringing it to that practical skillsthat we want,
really just recognizingthat you're going to kind of,
perhaps unconsciously, unintentionally,sometimes consciously
like it when stereotypes and expectations areupheld, is an important thing
to kind of hold in your mind.Also when the opposite is true,
so, so when they're disrupted,
when our habits get disrupted,our expectations gets disrupted,

(17:32):
it's aversive,it brings in the negative side of that.
It’s uncomfortable, mmhmm.
And that's somethingwe've talked about on the podcast before.
One of our episodes
with our guest Sandy a while back that,you know, people are uncomfortable
when they're being challengedand need to do some more work.
Habit disruption is inherently something
that brings up annoyedand frustrated emotions.
- Right.
And so that's something for usto all remember.

(17:53):
An analogyI sometimes use for this:
Have you ever gone to a grocery storethat wasn't “your grocery store”
and then, like,
the bread is next to the eggsfor some reason and like,
“What's up with that?”
“That's so weird.”- Yeah.
And get like,you get annoyed and aggravated.
It doesn't mean that morallyyou think there's something wrong with
how the grocery store is organized, but it'sbecause your habit is getting disrupted.

(18:13):
So again, this notion of bias being habits.They get rewarded by
or they engage your brain's reward system,I should say,
and if they get disrupted, it gives youthese aggravated frustrated feelings.
So in addition to learningto recognize the kind of reward feelings
that you might get,
keeping in touch with those
disruption feelings, that aggravationand frustrated emotions are necessarily

(18:37):
the consequences in most casesof your habits being disrupted.
So as we work on breaking bad habits,that's going to happen.
- Right, right.
Recognizing that, like you're goingto feel a little uncomfortable, right?
Like as you're raising your awareness,
as you're disrupting your natural patternsand brain pathways.

(18:57):
Right?
I talk about, like, we're building new neural pathways.
And so it's like our brainis used to driving on a road, right?
And you're on a roadthat has those really deep divots,
you know? And you're drivingand then your car gets pulled into that.
We're now trying to carve a new pathway.

(19:18):
So like your brain is going to want toautomatically get pulled
into that divot.
And it takes effort and workto pull yourself out of it.
And it can be a little frustrating.
And again,take effort and work to maneuver
out of the thingthat your brain wants to automatically do.
And to work against thosefrustrated feelings
and against the kind of reward engagement:

(19:40):
Joy is a really good weapon.
I know we say that a lot, but,that is part of it.
Rewarding something different.
So finding, having your expectations disconfirmed
finding that interestingand being curious about it
and finding joy in that, can be a good wayto help work against these things.
You might still havethe frustrated feelings,
and then you can be like,“Oh, I learned something! This is great.”

(20:01):
So bringing in that joy is a big part of,overriding these things.
- Yeah.
And that joy, too, it really is part of that
dopaminergic reinforcement rewarding system.Right?
So when we are looking for like,we're disrupting it and then we're looking
for something that can be joyful,something that can reinforce it,

(20:25):
that can help us say, like,“This is exciting,
let me find other evidenceof these things.”
Then can again reinforceby enhancing dopamine,
you know, in ADHD, like colloquialisms,we'll talk about “dopa-mining.”
Right? So we're mining for dopamine.
And so likewhen we're changing our pathways,

(20:46):
when we're shifting ourperspectives, when we are
counteracting those stereotypes,let's find those means of enhancing
dopaminergic like, production.Go dopa-mining so that we can
have more reward associatedwith the shifting of perspective.
- Absolutely. And onelast thing before we go to break.
Sometimes people think, with stereotypes,

(21:08):
They're like,“Well, you know,
you go throughout the worldand you start learning.
And, you know, if the stereotypesweren't true out in the world,
you wouldn't believe them anymore.”
Because they imagine itlike you're doing bookkeeping.
Like, “Okay, I'm countinghow many times the stereotype was true,
how many times it was false.”
That is not at all how it worksbecause of this reward system involvement,

(21:29):
the cases where something is confirmedare much more prominent
and have a much bigger effect on you.
We can't pretend thatwe're perfectly rational with how we
go through the worldand learn these things.
And so understanding that there arethese additional mechanisms,
these reward mechanisms that are going to favorthe kind of stereotypes and biases
that we've all learned acrossour lifetimes,

(21:51):
is a powerful stepon the way to do all this work,
all this good JEDI workthat we talk about every episode.
That's right.
All right.
So, now we're gonna go on breakand we will be back with our story time.
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music plays ]
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music plays ]

(22:15):
Welcome back from break.
Yeah, I love this topic.
I think we could probably talk aboutbrain pathways and how the reward system
and so many topics,and lots of clinical applications.
But this is our story time.
So, Will -- and as we always -- as you know,
we usually have one sort of negative storyand then a positive story.

(22:39):
Sometimes they relate to our topic,sometimes they don't, but they all have
correlations to conversationsaround diversity and diverse joy.
So Will, you have ourfirst story for today.
Yeah.
So this was many years ago,I was on a faculty visit
where I was interviewing to be faculty. That’s more detail than you probably needed.

(22:59):
But I got into this conversationwith this higher up at this university,
a provost or dean or something.
And he looked at the materialsabout my career,
and he was like, (grumpily) “Oh, you studystereotypes, huh?” Kind of like that.
I could immediatelytell where this conversation was going.
Like, you get people like thatevery once in a while,
who as soon as they hearyou study stereotypes or bias,
they've got an opinion.

(23:20):
Usually somethingabout how good stereotypes are.
Right.
And this guy was like,
“Stereotypes are pretty accuratein my experience.”
And he told this little story,when he finished his PhD,
someone in his family,
like at his graduationceremony came up to him was like,
“So I guess you thinkyou're pretty smart now, huh?”
And he kind of brought

(23:40):
that story to me, and was like,
“You know, I think that's a stereotype.
And I think everyone who gets a PhDprobably thinks they're pretty smart.
So the stereotypes true.”- Right.
And I don't rememberexactly what my response was.
I think I talked about,“Well, there might be that.
But also there's bias
that disadvantages people of colorand so on.”
But what I wish I had said to him,

(24:02):
you know -- it's debatablewhether everyone who gets there PhD
thinks they're really smart,like we talked about imposter syndrome
a few episodes ago, and there are peoplewith self-doubt and so on.
But even if you just kind of accept it
as generallyprobably more likely than not,
what I should have said to him was,
“Did it make you feel goodwhen your family member said that to you?”

(24:22):
At your graduation ceremony, afteryou've worked for years to get your PhD
for them to be like, “Oh,you think you're pretty smart now?”
No, that doesn't make you feel good.
That is a rude, awful thing to do.
Even if you did think you were smart
because you worked really hardand deserved to think you were smart,
it's still not a nice thing to door say to someone.
I've never met anyone who said, “Oh,I'm so happy I got stereotyped!”

(24:43):
- Right, right!
Like even when it's something that happensto match your your personality or what
you like, when someone says“You're Black, you must be good at singing,”
It robs you of a bit of that talent.
Even if they are good,even if you are good at singing.
Or, “Oh, you're gay,you must be fashionable.”
Like even if you are, or -
like I'm dressed today wearingflamboyant pink outfit!

(25:03):
No one really likes that,
saying that because of your groupmembership, you have this this thing.
Just appreciate what the person isor is not.
So. So that’s the more negative story.
And, Amber, you have ourmore positive story today.
What's that?
Yeah.
So, I've mentioned before,last year, actually,

(25:26):
I started getting involvedwith this nonprofit organization called
Ukandu. Shout out to myUkandu homies.
Lots of them watch.
And oh, man is suchan incredible organization.
And this year I wastaking on an interim lead role
for the behavioral health team,and I

(25:48):
did our diversity --
I snuck in a little training,during the training around kind of
“How do we think about diverse campers?”
Across the spectrumthat's, gender and sexuality.
That's race and ethnicityas well as neurodiversity.
And while I was talking about it,

(26:09):
I was feeling a little nervousbecause I did not ask for permission.
I kind of mentioned thatI would say,
“Let me also say
a little something about that,”but I kind of snuck
in a whole little section in the training,and I was a little nervous
about how that was going to go over.
But as I was doing that,
I also shared their diversity, um,

(26:29):
diversity, equity and inclusion statement,and I'm going to read it if I can.
My eyes are not great, but:
“At Ukandu,
we believe that all peoplehave the right to experience joy,
hope, and connection.
We are committed to fostering a diverseand culturally inclusive environment
in which our differencesbroaden our awareness,
enrich our experiences, and contributeto our collective strengths.

(26:53):
We commit to listening, learningand incorporating equity efforts
that remove barriers to participationand make space for stakeholders
at all levels to form genuinesupportive connections.”
They also have a statementaround gender inclusion.
And this is what it says:
“The mission of Ukanduis to bring joy, hope, and connection

(27:16):
to communities impacted by childhoodand adolescent cancer.
The youth who attend you can dohave cancer, have recently had
or have recently had cancer, or a siblingof someone who has had cancer,
or are a sibling of a childwho died due to cancer.
There are no restrictions on race,color, sex, gender identity or expression,

(27:37):
religion or sexual orientation.
It is our cancer storythat brings us together.
Our primary motivation is to providean excellent camp
experience for all youth to feel welcome.
Ukandu openly recognizes
that at times,we have reinforced social norms
related to the binary idea of gendersthat all people are either male or female.

(27:59):
Alienation of gender nonconforming/non-binary/transgender youth
can be overt, like bullying,or it can be unintentional
through cabin assignments, bathroom designations,and use of pronouns.
Ukandu embraces the opportunityand responsibility
to assist in expanding values of diversityand inclusion,
set a better example,and ensure that all campers are welcome

(28:23):
and safe at our camp and in our community.
As it is true with all our policies,they have been thoughtfully developed
to be consistent with our“You Can Do” spirit.
And we understand thatsome may have questions about this policy
and our program directoris available to address any concerns.
However, we believe that attendingUkandu programing is a privilege

(28:45):
and we expect all participants to respectand comply with those policies.
And all of that to say, it's incredible.
And I was just so taken backthat not only did they,
create a statement that talks about“what does diversity, equity, and inclusion mean,”
but they also recognize

(29:05):
their reinforcement of a stereotypeand a binary
that does not necessarily representall of its campers.
And now they have shifted and changedthe policy where they allow their youth
to choose which cabinthey want to be assigned to
that aligns best for their own genderidentity and expression.

(29:26):
And I remember doing this
training and inserting those thingsand talking about this and talking
about how to work withdiverse campers and
“Thumper,” who is Ukandu’s CEO,
he came outand just had this statement about like,
this is not about politics,this is about people.

(29:46):
And how we can really,
really embody the
platinum rule, which is treating othershow they want to be treated.
And that Ukandu is a place for safety,for all of our campers.
And this is what it meansto create that safety.
And I just continue to be just blown awayby this organization.
- Aw!- I love them so much.

(30:09):
I love participating and being partof what they do in that spirit.
But I think that not only is this
just a beautiful storyabout how they treat their campers
and what spirit that they embody,but again, how they are actively
working against stereotypes,how they are actively doing work,

(30:29):
not just saying, “Hey,this is our new policy moving forward,”
but “We're acknowledging where we came from
and the harm that may have been caused by the waysin which we've reinforced,
stereotypes that don't necessarilyneed to exist in this space.”
- That's so nice.- Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Wonderful positive story!
Way to go, Camp Ukandu!

(30:49):
Yay, Camp Ukandu, I love you.
Awesome.
So next we have our question.
So, a few months ago,I think three months ago now,
whenever it was, we talked about thePet to Threat phenomenon.
Right.
And in response to our discussion of that,it was, a very popular --
many people, as we even saidin the episode, really respond strongly

(31:11):
to this Pet to Threat notion.
And one of the questions we got,so we talked about how Pet to Threat
could drive people away from academiaor other careers.
They, you know, get brought inand they're treated nicely,
kind of like a pet.
And then when they starttrying to change things
become a threat, like Elphaba in “Wicked”.- Like Elphaba, yes!
And that drives them out.
But also, you know, there are other thingsthat might be unique to

(31:34):
members of stigmatized groupsthat drive them out
that aren't necessarilyrelated to bias, per se.
And so kind of the questionreframed a little by me is,
what are some thingsbesides bias and exclusion
that might drive folks out of careersor into different careers and so on?
Yeah, yeah, I think that there are
a number of things, again, that --absolutely that Pet to Threat, that kind

(31:59):
the threat, and kind of oppressive systems
and also lack of communityor the need for community.
And that's part of representation.
But it's also a sense of safetyin numbers.
It's the safety in being seen and heard.
And it's a sense of connectedness.

(32:19):
We also talked about inclusionversus belonging.
Right?
And that's part of what communityreally does.
Yeah.
And with, you know, a lot of careers,
to follow the kind of traditional trackyou have to move somewhere.
- Right, right.
And for folks who are maybe
in smaller communities - LGBT folks,people of color -

(32:42):
you know, that having people, ourpeople, our compatriots,
people who are like us, around us, is an important part of our well-being.
And I know for me,so that's definitely true
for academic, tenuretrack research kinds of positions.
Absolutely, yeah.
And, you know,I went on the job market.
My story was from one of the timesI was on the job market.

(33:02):
But at some point, I hit it whereI had such a good community here,
where I lived, and having to move tosome other place where I wouldn't have that,
and I'd have to start buildingthat all over again.
Just. I was like, “No.”
- Yeah.
Like, I'm not going to keepdoing this (stammering)
Not going to have to move somewhere just to keepthis very restrictive kind of career,

(33:26):
where I'm going to losethat kind of community.
And I've known people who --I had a colleague
from Madison, Wisconsin,went to University of Alabama,
which would not necessarilybe a safe place for a gay person.
Right, right.
Or maybe maybe people of color as well.
And like, you know, seeing how that pathlooked for him, I was kind of like,

(33:46):
“Yeah, no, I made the right choicesticking with where I have community.”
- Right, 100%.
And sometimes that's, you know,
shifting from a decisionthat you did make, recognizing --
So I have a colleague and dearfriend of mine, Dr. Kelly Blunt.
Hey, girl, hey!
Who came to Portland,
to do, like, clinical training,directorship

(34:06):
in a counseling program herein the Portland area.
And it's a different spacefor a Black woman,
that grew up in South Carolina.
And this is an incredible woman,who is a vet,
she's lived all over the world.
And I remember herjust talking about moving to Portland.

(34:28):
And I was like,“Oh! The community here is not the same.
This is not what I'm used to.”
And even in the those decisions that are,
you know, meant to like boost your,your career in a lot of ways.
Yeah, sure it does.
And to what extent?
What's the sacrifice that might comewith that? And needing to readjust to say,

(34:49):
like, “This other part of my life,which is my life, right?”
It's so easy for our livesto be consumed by our career and
sacrifice something that's so inherentand so important, like community,
and that not having community,whether that's at your work,
your place of work, or in the areain which your work inhabits like

(35:11):
that is absolutely going to cause somebodyto not stay in a system for sure.
Absolutely. So, so, yeah.
Thanks for the folks who asked about that.
So now we're going to have our skill.
I was going to say, what’s our skill for today?
Our skill is something calledImpression Justification.
This is something that we've talkedabout, two years ago now.
And I just want to kind of upfront,tell folks,

(35:32):
you know, whenever we revisit a skill, onethat's intentional
because that's how we learn these things,being reminded of the things we learn.
You can't just hear it onceand then have it perfectly down.
(Jokingly) What? That's how my brain works!
No, I’m just kidding!
But, whenever we revisit a skill,we're going to talk about it differently.
So we sat and looked at that episode,Amber and I, when we were planning this,

(35:55):
and we looked at what stories we told
and everything,and we're going to use different ones
because we have a repertoirenow of examples; some of you sent some in,
also always send us those questionsor ways you’ve used anything,
at DiverseJoy.com, we have a form.
And so whenever we revisit,
like we're doing todayand we'll do a couple other times
this season, we're goingto talk about it differently.

(36:16):
- Yep.
So Impression Justification,it actually draws
directly on that reward stuffwe were learning about.
So what Impression Justificationinvolves is
when we're making a decisionabout someone,
if they match our expectations,we have that reward engagement,
which gives us a good gutfeeling about them.
So let's say we're taskedwith hiring a new police chief.

(36:37):
This is a modified example
from one of the research studiesactually showing this phenomenon.
When I say police chief,what most people are going to think of
is probably a man,
that tends to be thestereotypic expectation.
So then if we're looking at like differentpeople who applied to be a police chief
and we have a man who applied for thatmale stereotyped job, it fits.
It matches the expectation.
We get that reward engagement.

(36:57):
So it gives us a good gutfeeling about that male applicant.
Right.
And so we start with a good gut feelingand we're looking at his résumé
and it says he has four years of experience.
That's pretty good.
And we think of the things on his application
as more positivebecause we started with that gut feeling.
So we get that impression, that goodgut feeling, and then we justify it.
We say, “Oh yeah, four years of experience.

(37:20):
That's good.”

So (37:20):
impression, justification. That's where we get the term.
And then the opposite happenswhen it's someone who mismatches.
So if we have a woman applying for thatmale stereotyped job
your brain has to work harder.
It has to be like,how am I figuring this out?
It's a little bit of some of thataversion, frustration.
LIke, how does this work in my worldwhere it doesn't match my expectation?
So you start with anegative gut feeling

(37:42):
towards the woman applicantin the male stereotyped profession.
And then if it were, let's say,everything else were the same,
you see, four years, like,
“Well, four years, is that enough?Is that enough experience?
I'm not sure.”
And interpret everything throughthat kind of negative bad gut feeling.
One of the skills we're going to learnabout way later this season,
I’m just going to give it a little plug now
is to Think Aheadabout how you're making these decisions.

(38:03):
So if ahead of time we had said
“We want someonewith at least four years experience,”
then you see the four years experience,your gut feeling doesn't interpret that.
And you said we wanted four years.
So if they have fouryears, it's a good thing.
- Yeah, yeah.
And so
that's one way to short circuit this,which we'll talk about more later.
But these kind of gut feelings,so they can come from the stereotype expectations

(38:25):
being met or disrupted,
as we've been talkingabout throughout today.
But they can also come from other thingslike, attractiveness.
So if you think the person's attractive.
So Amber, you have a term for this.What was it?
It's the halo effectis what the scientific term is.
- Well, I know what the scientific term is!
But I like to call itthe thirst trap bias. (Laughing)

(38:46):
So if anyone doesn't knowwhat is, a thirst trap means -
you're “thirsty” means you're kindof horny, attracted to…
You're thirsty.
Thirsty for them, yeah.
You thirst after them. Yeah.
So, yeah, if you're thirstyfor someone, you're like, “Oh, I like them.”
They’re attractive.
You're going to interpret everything froma more positive stand.
Everything from a positive lens, absolutely.

(39:06):
Or similarity is another one.
So we talked about this a bit last time
where we have this kind ofin-group favoritism.
Right.
If you see similarity - like, “Oh we have this thing in common,”
you're going to start liking that persona little more,
whether or not it's relevantto things on the job.
Yeah.
Well, yeah. What I was thinking about earlier,
and in this conversation aroundImpression Justification is also,

(39:28):
from a clinical perspective, is anxiety.
Because we have these,
ideas or impressions and often that
negative gut feeling about somethingand then our natural --
most folks natural response to
anxiety producing phenomena is avoidance.

(39:50):
And the more that we avoid it,the bigger that gut feeling is
because we don't have these counternarratives to …
- These skills!
… Skills to combatthat negative gut feeling.
And so it just becomesbigger and bigger and bigger.
And so I tell my kids all the time,it's like taking --

(40:11):
So, in CBT we talk aboutautomatic negative thoughts.
Right?
So with my kids I call thoseANTs: automatic negative thoughts. “Ants.”
And it's like anxietyis taking a magnifying glass to that “ant”
and making it really big. Right?
The more that we avoid the ants,the bigger they gets.
Right?
And so it just reinforcesthis negative gut feeling.

(40:35):
And we tend to avoid it.
And we see that when it comesto things around diversity too.
- Yep!
That even the best intent, which is“I don't want to say the wrong thing.
I don't want to do the wrong thing.”
And so then we avoid interacting withthem and that thing that we're afraid of
just gets bigger and bigger, andthen we end up perpetuating harm anyway.

(40:56):
Right? That thing that we were afraid of.
And so, yeah.
So I think about like,the thing to counteract that,
right, is creating more positiveexperiences, exposure.
Right.
Exposing ourselves to thething that we are afraid of,
that negative experience, having the,

(41:18):
the criteria beforehand saying like,this is what it is.
And then the more positive experiences -when it comes to like anxiety, right,
the more times that we are exposed to it
and we've done well,like I say to my kids, like,
the more - then you get to be brave,“Let's practice being brave.”
We get to practice being brave,and then we have these,
more positive experiences
can then counteract,and then we can replace

(41:40):
that negative gut reaction feelingwith something that is more positive.
We're counteracting that narrative.
- And what you're sayingabout kind of avoidance,
trying to avoid things tends to be avery poor way of creating change.
That's kind of a universal truthof human psychology.
Doesn't work!
And so like every once in a while,I might use the term

(42:00):
“avoiding bias”on this podcast.
But generally I'm always going totalk about “overcoming bias,”
“breaking bias habits,”because when people just try to avoid it,
they actually often end up showingmore bias.
You're much better served by saying,“How is bias affecting me?”
“What thoughts does it bring to mind?”
“What gut feelings might be arising?”
Like in the Impression Justification we'retalking about and then tackling that.

(42:23):
So, you know, avoiding it is running awayand then confronting it is tackling it!
We want to be tackling it.- Yes.
Because that's how we can move through itand have better ways of responding.
Avoidance just ends up,
like you said, with anxietyand more problems and not good solutions.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
And anxiety dampens dopamine signals.

(42:44):
Right? So again…
You’re robbing yourself of joy!
… You’re robbing yourself of joy!
And we're reinforcingthat negative -
those automatic negative thoughts,
those automatic negative impressionsthat we might have.
Absolutely.Awesome.
This is what we like to do.
And I realized in the last episode,
so if we have new listeners and viewers,which I assume we're going to have,

(43:06):
I mentionedthat I was a social psychologist.
So, a scientist studying these kinds of things.
Amber, is a pediatric clinical psychologist.
So she brings in a lot of stuff.
She mentioned CBT,cognitive behavioral therapy,
a lot of the trainingand these skills were developed
combining the social psychology literaturewith stuff from the clinical literature.
And so we kind of bring those two sidestogether in this.

(43:27):
And you just got to hearhow some of that works.
A little bit of the clinical side.
All right.
We're going to take our last little break,
and come backwith our joyful recommendation.
Bubbles!
[ “Diverse Joy” interstitial music plays ]
All right.
So we kind of talked a little bitabout our recommendation already.

(43:48):
Just a tad, yeah!
But Amber:
It's officially your recommendation.
What are you recommending?
I'm recommending all things“Wizard of Oz”,
so of course, “Wicked”,“Part 1” and part 2.
Even though it's not out yet.
Even though it's not out yet,I am preemptively recommending it
because we all knowit's going to be amazing.

(44:08):
Even just the trailer.Just watch the trailer.
If the movie's not out yet,watch the trailer.
But all things “Wizard of Oz”.
The movie with Judy Garland.
All of the books.
I believe it’s L. Frank Baum is the author of the books.
There’s “Return to Oz”,which I watched recently,

(44:29):
and it is
a wacky…
Weird.
… very weird, dark movie,
but also really fascinating story.
Kind of going off --- “The Wiz”!
Of course, the “The Wiz”!
Which I saw for the first time.
I think it was earlier this yearwe had it at movie night.
It blew my mind.- Michael Jackson!

(44:52):
It's amazing.
There's even “The Muppets Wizard of Oz”
and so --.
With the two Miss Piggy'sfighting each other.
Yes! I mean, you cannotget better than than that.
And, again, I've already said how muchI love the story of “Wicked” in particular,
but I think recently I've seen and learnedhow big the

(45:16):
lore of Oz actually is.
LIke all the books?
Yeah, and all of the books. There’s a lot.And there's a lot of detail in all of it.
I remember hearing a,
an interview with the -
I can't even rememberthe title of this guy, but
essentially he was their consultanton “the world” of Oz for “Wicked”.

(45:38):
And I was like, there's a consultant for,like, the world of Oz?
And then I realized,
“Oh, there's a lot of lore.”
There's a lot written aboutthis whole world.
And so all things “Wizard of Oz”,I recommend you
just dive in, do a deep dive,watch all of the different films,

(45:59):
different adaptations,read the books.
It's just a lovely, fun storyand lots of different
interpretations and diverse,
perspectives and ways in whichthe story has been told.
We did a whole episodeon this last season,
so in terms of like “diversity,”which you know, is what we're talking about,

(46:20):
you can also learn diversity related messagesthrough analogy.
So as Amber said at the beginningof this episode, you know, looking at,
Elphaba and she basically goesthrough a textbook Pet to Threat
like if you connect with those messagesand think deeply about them.
Also, sometimes listeningto the commentary around these things,
the book that “Wicked”was based on by Maguire, I believe,

(46:41):
all of this kind of prejudice and oppression stuff,that's what the book was about.
And so you can engage with that and thenthink about how it connects to the real world,
and real world diversity related issues,even when it's something fantastical.
- 100%, 100%.
So yes, go watch and consumeall things “Wizard of Oz”.
Yeah.

(47:01):
Final little wrap upas part of our credits:
So, my book “Overcoming Bias Habits”is available for you to order now.
And at the end of a few of these episodes,
we're going to sharesome of my endorsements.
So one of the people who was kind enough
to give me an endorsement,her name is Lisa Smith.
She is the CEO of the BadgerlandGirl Scouts.

(47:22):
Part of the Girl Scouts of the USA.
And I gave my training for allof their employees a while back,
and my publisher was asking about my pastclients, and when I mentioned Girl Scouts
She was like, “Yes!”
And Lisa was so wonderfuland willing to do this for me.
And so, she gave this endorsement soyou can hear a little bit about my book.
Yeah.
And I, too, just thoughtthat it would be really important

(47:45):
and good for us to read them.
And so, one, I asked if I couldbe the one to read them
because I also, while these aren'tmy endorsements,
they echo my voice and praiseof my dear friend Dr. Cox.
Lisa writes, “Dr. Cox has a rare giftfor translating the science of bias in human behavior

(48:06):
into ideas that are clear,useful, and relatable.
He shines a lighton how bias shows up in everyday life,
all while staying grounded inwhat it means to be human.”
Lisa Smith. - Thank you, Lisa.
Yeah! I can't agree more.
So yeah, definitely,
you all are going to have to goget that book
because it's pretty, pretty darn good.

(48:28):
(Giggling)
Thank you, thank you.
I'm Dr. William Cox.
And I'm Dr. Amber Nelson.
“Diverse Joy” is produced by Eric Roman Beining
with music by Jay Arner.
Follow us @DiverseJoy on mostsocial media platforms for extra content.
If you enjoy the show, help us reachmore people
by leaving five star reviewsor by recommending it personally.

(48:49):
Word of mouth accountsfor 70% of how people find new podcasts.
New episodes release the first Wednesdayof every month.
We haven't missed a month yetand we don’t plan to.
Watch us on YouTubeor listen in any podcasting app,
or check us out at DiverseJoy.com
where you can also findadditional diversity education resources,
buy some incredible merchandise,or donate to support the show.

(49:13):
“Diverse Joy” is the official podcastof Inequity Agents of Change, a nonprofit
devoted to evidence-based approaches to reduce bias,create inclusion, and promote equity.
All that good JEDI work!
Learn more at BiasHabit.com.
Thank you for joining us.
Now, go find your joy!Byeee!