September 26, 2023 • 16 mins
Chancellor May sits down with Kevin Johnson, dean of the UC Davis School of Law, to talk about immigration law, freedom of expression, and how to disagree respectfully as we head into an election year.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to “Face to Face,” a UC Davis podcast
featuring students, staff and faculty innovators.
I’m your host, Chancellor Gary May.
Stay tuned for my next guest.
Hi, I’m Kevin Johnson, dean of UC
Davis School of Law and
Mabie-Apallas professor of public
(00:24):
interest law and Chicano studies.
I’ve been at the law school since
1989 and have been dean of the
law school since 2008.
I’ve taught a wide variety of
courses, including immigration law,
Latinos and Latinas in the law,
civil procedure and complex
litigation.
I also have written extensively on
immigration and civil rights issues
— two of my passions —
(00:44):
and have also been involved in
litigation over the years involving
the rights of immigrants.
Welcome to “Face to Face,” Kevin.
Thanks for having me, Chancellor May.
Thanks for being here with us and happy
to have you on the show today
to honor King Hall, one of the top
law schools in the country under
your leadership. ... Thank you.
... Now, you’ve been dean now for
(01:05):
more than a decade, right?
So how have you seen the
law school change in that period of
time since you’ve been here?
Well, I think some very positive
change has taken place
over the, you know, 16 years that
I’ve been dean of the law school.
I don’t want to take credit for
them, because it’s really the
faculty, the students, the staff,
the alums who really made these
changes possible.
(01:27):
I think that we’ve seen an
incredible
sort of productivity
on the part of the faculty in terms
of their research, their engagement
with societal issues, and
their consistent devotion
to teaching.
It’s a very diverse faculty.
When I joined the faculty in 1989,
(01:47):
it was an all-white faculty.
And today it’s a majority-minority
faculty with more Asian Americans
in the faculty than any law school
in the country, including the
University of Hawaii.
We also have an incredibly diverse
student body with about
60% students of color,
and we have
about 25% who are first-generation
(02:10):
law students and college
students.
And we have about the same
percentage of low-income
students who attend.
I think that we have really
solidified our commitment
to being a law school devoted
to social justice and social change,
and the diversity of our faculty and
our student body helps
(02:31):
us to pursue those
goals.
And the fact that we’re in a law
school building named after Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr.
reminds us on a daily basis
of why we are teaching
law for the professors, and why
we’re becoming lawyers
if we’re the students.
It’s such an impressive record in
statistics — a diverse faculty,
(02:52):
diverse student body, diverse
curriculum.
Why do you think diversity is so
important in this space these days?
Well, I think U.S.
society has an incredible array
of social problems and social issues
that we need to address.
Many of them have been with us for
decades and
not much has happened.
(03:13):
Issues of race in the criminal
justice system, for example,
have been with us for
most of our history and certainly
the last 100 years.
But now our society
is starting to think about things
like systemic racism
in the criminal justice system.
And we as a law school feel
that we’re ideally poised
(03:34):
to — I
don’t want to say capitalize — but
to help direct the forces
for change, to
show how we can have a
more racially and socially just
criminal justice system and
to rethink how we might
go about policing, how to rethink
(03:54):
how we might go about incarceration
in prisons.
So, I think that
we’ve been ahead of the curve in
some ways in thinking about these
issues, and now
society has said these are
issues we really should address.
The George Floyd case, the
horrible tragedy in 2020,
(04:16):
got many people talking about
systemic racism in a way
that we weren’t talking about five
years ago or 10 years ago.
And I think that we are
ideally suited to
talk about those issues and
to come up with ways of
bringing about change.
One of the things we did as a
community a few years ago —
after the George Floyd
(04:37):
tragedy — is we started a
Racial Justice Speaker Series
at the law school, where we had
people talk about
the criminal justice system, the
environmental laws,
corporate governance and how
businesses are
supervised in our society,
and a wide array of different
issues. And the idea was
(04:59):
to talk about systemic racism, not
just in the criminal justice system,
where it is an issue, but in places
like immigration law
and related
areas, the prison system.
And we also talk about racial
injustice for a wide
variety of groups, for Asian
Americans, as well as Latinos,
as well as African Americans.
(05:21):
And we try to broaden
the discussion and raise
public awareness of these incredibly
complex issues.
It’s a really important contribution
that you’re making.
You mentioned immigration law, and I
know that’s your specialty.
I wonder what concerns you might
have about immigration or immigrant
rights today and what reforms
you think are necessary.
(05:41):
Well, that’s a good question.
And
if smoke starts coming out of my
ears, you’ve got to tell me to
stop it.
I think that we have to,
as a nation, have a profound
discussion about what we
want to do in terms of our
immigration laws.
And I think that requires us
(06:01):
to have a
realization that we’re dealing with
people and human beings
and lives.
It’s not just “illegal
aliens” or “aliens.”
These are people.
And we should as a society —
as a society devoted to democracy
and equality — we should
(06:24):
try to treat all people humanely.
And so, I think that
we need to rethink
how we view immigrants
and to think, well, yeah, we
may need some reforms.
We may need some changes.
We may need more enforcement,
but we should always keep in mind
that we’re dealing with human
beings. And one of the things that
(06:45):
bothers me — and frankly,
makes me sad,
very sad at times — is
that we have a system now.
We have desperate people
trying to cross the desert, the
southern part of the United States.
And people are dying on a
daily basis.
And they’re dying
far from cameras,
(07:07):
far from others.
And we know this is happening.
It’s been happening for at
this point decades.
And nothing is changing.
But real lives
are being lost.
And we should think about whether
anything we do in terms of
immigration law enforcement is
contributing to those deaths.
(07:28):
And it’s so stark.
I mean, there are places in southern
Arizona near Tucson,
for example, where they don’t have
room enough in the morgues for the
bodies that are accumulating on the
border.
They had to get freezer trucks to
put bodies.
And it’s, you know,
women, families,
(07:48):
children and
the elderly.
And to me, thinking
about the human impacts of
immigration law and policy —
and the human loss that we’re seeing
because of our immigration laws and
their enforcement — are really where
we have to start thinking about
change before we can,
you know, think about whether
(08:08):
things like immigrant detention
should be permissible, or
whether detaining immigrant families
is something we should have, or
whether, as President Trump
did, we should start splitting
up families so that we deter them
from coming to the United States.
I think it’s very hard for
some of these very harsh immigration
(08:28):
measures, like separating families —
it’s very hard to do them if you
realize you’re dealing with human
beings.
And I think one
of the reasons that the
Trump administration did away with
the family separation policy was
because so many Americans understood
that just wasn’t right.
It’s a real sobering conversation
(08:49):
and gives us a lot to
think about.
How do you think the UC system, UC
Davis, in particular, are doing on
these issues of our immigrant
student population, undocumented
student populations — things we
could be doing differently or
better?
I think, and I’m
quite proud, actually,
of what the University of California
system has done and this campus
(09:10):
has done with respect to our
immigrant students.
It was a few years ago
that the UC system created
the Immigrant Legal Services Center
that serves undocumented students
and their families on
all the UC campuses.
And it’s housed at UC Davis
School of Law, and it’s housed
at UC Davis School Law because the
(09:31):
president of the University of
California, at the time Janet
Napolitano, asked for
me to come up with a proposal for
that center.
And I did.
And we offered
space to house that center.
And students, free of charge —
immigrant
students, citizen
students with immigrant parents —
(09:52):
are able to get legal services to
navigate a very challenging
immigration system.
And it affects — you know,
they’re students who’ve been in
immigrant detention.
There have been students in removal
proceedings.
And the center has provided legal
advice, legal support.
And I think that’s an amazing
(10:12):
service that’s being provided for
immigrant students.
And I think that the university
deserves great credit.
And I know that this campus
has been very supportive
of the immigrant student population.
It’s been very generous
in terms of space and creating
an AB540 Center, a
place for
(10:33):
immigrant students to feel safe and
whole and not under attack.
And I think the campus,
as it’s moving to become a
Hispanic-Serving Institution,
really has done a lot
to ensure that immigrant
students feel part of the overall
community.
At the same time,
(10:54):
our fees aren’t what they used
to be in the UC system.
It’s tough for people from moderate
means, including many immigrants
students, to afford education.
And we as a state, we
as a campus, we as an overall
university, have to think about what
we can do to make sure that
all students who are admitted
really have the opportunity
(11:14):
to attend
the University of California, Davis.
That’s very true.
Affordability is certainly a big
issue, and we’re trying to do some
things to make that
— make affordability
a fact of life for all of our
students. And we appreciate the
center’s contributions to the
immigrant student population very
much.
Now, you’re a lawyer, so I’m
(11:36):
guessing you have good debate
skills, right?
So we’re about to have an election
year, and I’m sure there will be
lots of passionate debates all over
the place on many sides of many
issues.
What advice would you give to
our audience
for people to be able to disagree
and debate but do so in a
constructive and respectful way?
Now, I think one of
(11:57):
the skills that many political
leaders and many Americans sadly
seem to have lost is the ability to
disagree respectfully and
thoughtfully.
I know that
these are divisive times, and people
have strong differences of opinion.
I do think that
I always look at it this way (12:15):
I have
members of my family,
my wife’s family — we’re not
always on the same political page.
And we have to talk about some of
these issues, including, you
know, between Republicans and
Democrats, between pro law
enforcement and more critical of
law enforcement.
And I want to
(12:36):
remain a member of my family, so I
always want to work hard
to maybe debate
and argue, disagree,
but do it respectfully and
thoughtfully with an understanding
that other people come to these
questions with different points of
view, and we should try to
discuss them.
At the same time, if somebody’s
treating me with disrespect
(12:56):
and unreasonably,
I’m more likely to disengage
and not try to convince them of
anything, because it appears they’re
not committed to rational discourse.
So I do think that,
you know, we all should try to be
on our best
behavior in talking about these
issues in these difficult times.
(13:17):
And to me, one
of the wonderful things about a
college campus, is
it’s a place where ideas can be
discussed.
Different ideas can be compared.
There can be differences of opinion.
I’ve always found it better to talk
softly as opposed to yell at people
and try and convince them of things.
(13:39):
And I think that, you know,
we really should try to listen to
others.
And sometimes we can
convince others of our points
of view, and
that’s what we should strive for.
One of my mentors said, if you speak
softly, people have to listen to
you. They have to make a point
to hear you. So maybe that’s good
(13:59):
advice.
I’m going to change gears just a
little bit. Something we like to do
on “Face to Face.” It’s called the
“Hot Seat.” And
the “Hot Seat” just means I’m going
to ask you some rapid-fire
questions.
And I’m looking for a one-word or
one-sentence answer.
So you're ready?
Sure.
OK. Here we go.
Best TV legal drama?
Best TV legal drama ...
“Law & Order (14:20):
SVU.”
Oh, that’s a good one. I like that
one, too.
Now, favorite food?
Tacos.
I did hear you have a sign on your
door that says, “Tacos are always
the answer.” So that was
a trick question. Yeah, easy one.
Most influential Supreme Court
Justice?
Thurgood Marshall.
(14:41):
Great answer. I like that answer as
well.
OK, pumpkin spice
latte, apple cider or hot chocolate?
Hot chocolate.
Hot chocolate. You’re a
traditionalist.
OK.
This is my favorite question I ask
all the guests.
Who’s on top of your playlist right
now?
Who's on top of? The Cramps.
The Cramps? Wow.
OK. Wasn’t expecting that one.
(15:03):
All right.
Now it’s your turn. You can ask me
anything.
Well, you’re the
leader of an incredible campus
with an incredible number of events.
I can’t imagine how many events
that you have access to
be able to attend.
I’m sure they’re all enjoyable.
What’s your favorite event of all
(15:23):
the ones you attend?
That’s a great question.
You know, we both are sports fans,
so, you know, I like to go to the
games to see our student-athletes
perform. But I would have to say my
favorite day or days of the year
are usually commencement, because
on commencement, for the most
part, everybody’s happy.
The students, their families,
faculty — everyone is happy.
(15:44):
I don’t get complaints in my inbox.
It’s usually the best day or days
of the year. So I have to say
commencement.
Kevin, I really appreciate you
joining me and spending time with
the audience and telling us about
King Hall and all the things that
are happening on our campus.
It’s an honor. Thank you.
Thanks for being here.
(16:04):
Thanks to everyone for listening.
Tune in next time on “Face to Face.”
Go, Ags!
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to “Face to Face,” a UC Davis podcast
featuring students, staff and faculty innovators.
I’m your host, Chancellor Gary May.
Stay tuned for my next guest.
Hi, I’m Kevin Johnson, dean of UC
Davis School of Law and
Mabie-Apallas professor of public
(00:24):
interest law and Chicano studies.
I’ve been at the law school since
1989 and have been dean of the
law school since 2008.
I’ve taught a wide variety of
courses, including immigration law,
Latinos and Latinas in the law,
civil procedure and complex
litigation.
I also have written extensively on
immigration and civil rights issues
— two of my passions —
(00:44):
and have also been involved in
litigation over the years involving
the rights of immigrants.
Welcome to “Face to Face,” Kevin.
Thanks for having me, Chancellor May.
Thanks for being here with us and happy
to have you on the show today
to honor King Hall, one of the top
law schools in the country under
your leadership. ... Thank you.
... Now, you’ve been dean now for
(01:05):
more than a decade, right?
So how have you seen the
law school change in that period of
time since you’ve been here?
Well, I think some very positive
change has taken place
over the, you know, 16 years that
I’ve been dean of the law school.
I don’t want to take credit for
them, because it’s really the
faculty, the students, the staff,
the alums who really made these
changes possible.
(01:27):
I think that we’ve seen an
incredible
sort of productivity
on the part of the faculty in terms
of their research, their engagement
with societal issues, and
their consistent devotion
to teaching.
It’s a very diverse faculty.
When I joined the faculty in 1989,
(01:47):
it was an all-white faculty.
And today it’s a majority-minority
faculty with more Asian Americans
in the faculty than any law school
in the country, including the
University of Hawaii.
We also have an incredibly diverse
student body with about
60% students of color,
and we have
about 25% who are first-generation
(02:10):
law students and college
students.
And we have about the same
percentage of low-income
students who attend.
I think that we have really
solidified our commitment
to being a law school devoted
to social justice and social change,
and the diversity of our faculty and
our student body helps
(02:31):
us to pursue those
goals.
And the fact that we’re in a law
school building named after Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr.
reminds us on a daily basis
of why we are teaching
law for the professors, and why
we’re becoming lawyers
if we’re the students.
It’s such an impressive record in
statistics — a diverse faculty,
(02:52):
diverse student body, diverse
curriculum.
Why do you think diversity is so
important in this space these days?
Well, I think U.S.
society has an incredible array
of social problems and social issues
that we need to address.
Many of them have been with us for
decades and
not much has happened.
(03:13):
Issues of race in the criminal
justice system, for example,
have been with us for
most of our history and certainly
the last 100 years.
But now our society
is starting to think about things
like systemic racism
in the criminal justice system.
And we as a law school feel
that we’re ideally poised
(03:34):
to — I
don’t want to say capitalize — but
to help direct the forces
for change, to
show how we can have a
more racially and socially just
criminal justice system and
to rethink how we might
go about policing, how to rethink
(03:54):
how we might go about incarceration
in prisons.
So, I think that
we’ve been ahead of the curve in
some ways in thinking about these
issues, and now
society has said these are
issues we really should address.
The George Floyd case, the
horrible tragedy in 2020,
(04:16):
got many people talking about
systemic racism in a way
that we weren’t talking about five
years ago or 10 years ago.
And I think that we are
ideally suited to
talk about those issues and
to come up with ways of
bringing about change.
One of the things we did as a
community a few years ago —
after the George Floyd
(04:37):
tragedy — is we started a
Racial Justice Speaker Series
at the law school, where we had
people talk about
the criminal justice system, the
environmental laws,
corporate governance and how
businesses are
supervised in our society,
and a wide array of different
issues. And the idea was
(04:59):
to talk about systemic racism, not
just in the criminal justice system,
where it is an issue, but in places
like immigration law
and related
areas, the prison system.
And we also talk about racial
injustice for a wide
variety of groups, for Asian
Americans, as well as Latinos,
as well as African Americans.
(05:21):
And we try to broaden
the discussion and raise
public awareness of these incredibly
complex issues.
It’s a really important contribution
that you’re making.
You mentioned immigration law, and I
know that’s your specialty.
I wonder what concerns you might
have about immigration or immigrant
rights today and what reforms
you think are necessary.
(05:41):
Well, that’s a good question.
And
if smoke starts coming out of my
ears, you’ve got to tell me to
stop it.
I think that we have to,
as a nation, have a profound
discussion about what we
want to do in terms of our
immigration laws.
And I think that requires us
(06:01):
to have a
realization that we’re dealing with
people and human beings
and lives.
It’s not just “illegal
aliens” or “aliens.”
These are people.
And we should as a society —
as a society devoted to democracy
and equality — we should
(06:24):
try to treat all people humanely.
And so, I think that
we need to rethink
how we view immigrants
and to think, well, yeah, we
may need some reforms.
We may need some changes.
We may need more enforcement,
but we should always keep in mind
that we’re dealing with human
beings. And one of the things that
(06:45):
bothers me — and frankly,
makes me sad,
very sad at times — is
that we have a system now.
We have desperate people
trying to cross the desert, the
southern part of the United States.
And people are dying on a
daily basis.
And they’re dying
far from cameras,
(07:07):
far from others.
And we know this is happening.
It’s been happening for at
this point decades.
And nothing is changing.
But real lives
are being lost.
And we should think about whether
anything we do in terms of
immigration law enforcement is
contributing to those deaths.
(07:28):
And it’s so stark.
I mean, there are places in southern
Arizona near Tucson,
for example, where they don’t have
room enough in the morgues for the
bodies that are accumulating on the
border.
They had to get freezer trucks to
put bodies.
And it’s, you know,
women, families,
(07:48):
children and
the elderly.
And to me, thinking
about the human impacts of
immigration law and policy —
and the human loss that we’re seeing
because of our immigration laws and
their enforcement — are really where
we have to start thinking about
change before we can,
you know, think about whether
(08:08):
things like immigrant detention
should be permissible, or
whether detaining immigrant families
is something we should have, or
whether, as President Trump
did, we should start splitting
up families so that we deter them
from coming to the United States.
I think it’s very hard for
some of these very harsh immigration
(08:28):
measures, like separating families —
it’s very hard to do them if you
realize you’re dealing with human
beings.
And I think one
of the reasons that the
Trump administration did away with
the family separation policy was
because so many Americans understood
that just wasn’t right.
It’s a real sobering conversation
(08:49):
and gives us a lot to
think about.
How do you think the UC system, UC
Davis, in particular, are doing on
these issues of our immigrant
student population, undocumented
student populations — things we
could be doing differently or
better?
I think, and I’m
quite proud, actually,
of what the University of California
system has done and this campus
(09:10):
has done with respect to our
immigrant students.
It was a few years ago
that the UC system created
the Immigrant Legal Services Center
that serves undocumented students
and their families on
all the UC campuses.
And it’s housed at UC Davis
School of Law, and it’s housed
at UC Davis School Law because the
(09:31):
president of the University of
California, at the time Janet
Napolitano, asked for
me to come up with a proposal for
that center.
And I did.
And we offered
space to house that center.
And students, free of charge —
immigrant
students, citizen
students with immigrant parents —
(09:52):
are able to get legal services to
navigate a very challenging
immigration system.
And it affects — you know,
they’re students who’ve been in
immigrant detention.
There have been students in removal
proceedings.
And the center has provided legal
advice, legal support.
And I think that’s an amazing
(10:12):
service that’s being provided for
immigrant students.
And I think that the university
deserves great credit.
And I know that this campus
has been very supportive
of the immigrant student population.
It’s been very generous
in terms of space and creating
an AB540 Center, a
place for
(10:33):
immigrant students to feel safe and
whole and not under attack.
And I think the campus,
as it’s moving to become a
Hispanic-Serving Institution,
really has done a lot
to ensure that immigrant
students feel part of the overall
community.
At the same time,
(10:54):
our fees aren’t what they used
to be in the UC system.
It’s tough for people from moderate
means, including many immigrants
students, to afford education.
And we as a state, we
as a campus, we as an overall
university, have to think about what
we can do to make sure that
all students who are admitted
really have the opportunity
(11:14):
to attend
the University of California, Davis.
That’s very true.
Affordability is certainly a big
issue, and we’re trying to do some
things to make that
— make affordability
a fact of life for all of our
students. And we appreciate the
center’s contributions to the
immigrant student population very
much.
Now, you’re a lawyer, so I’m
(11:36):
guessing you have good debate
skills, right?
So we’re about to have an election
year, and I’m sure there will be
lots of passionate debates all over
the place on many sides of many
issues.
What advice would you give to
our audience
for people to be able to disagree
and debate but do so in a
constructive and respectful way?
Now, I think one of
(11:57):
the skills that many political
leaders and many Americans sadly
seem to have lost is the ability to
disagree respectfully and
thoughtfully.
I know that
these are divisive times, and people
have strong differences of opinion.
I do think that
I always look at it this way (12:15):
I have
members of my family,
my wife’s family — we’re not
always on the same political page.
And we have to talk about some of
these issues, including, you
know, between Republicans and
Democrats, between pro law
enforcement and more critical of
law enforcement.
And I want to
(12:36):
remain a member of my family, so I
always want to work hard
to maybe debate
and argue, disagree,
but do it respectfully and
thoughtfully with an understanding
that other people come to these
questions with different points of
view, and we should try to
discuss them.
At the same time, if somebody’s
treating me with disrespect
(12:56):
and unreasonably,
I’m more likely to disengage
and not try to convince them of
anything, because it appears they’re
not committed to rational discourse.
So I do think that,
you know, we all should try to be
on our best
behavior in talking about these
issues in these difficult times.
(13:17):
And to me, one
of the wonderful things about a
college campus, is
it’s a place where ideas can be
discussed.
Different ideas can be compared.
There can be differences of opinion.
I’ve always found it better to talk
softly as opposed to yell at people
and try and convince them of things.
(13:39):
And I think that, you know,
we really should try to listen to
others.
And sometimes we can
convince others of our points
of view, and
that’s what we should strive for.
One of my mentors said, if you speak
softly, people have to listen to
you. They have to make a point
to hear you. So maybe that’s good
(13:59):
advice.
I’m going to change gears just a
little bit. Something we like to do
on “Face to Face.” It’s called the
“Hot Seat.” And
the “Hot Seat” just means I’m going
to ask you some rapid-fire
questions.
And I’m looking for a one-word or
one-sentence answer.
So you're ready?
Sure.
OK. Here we go.
Best TV legal drama?
Best TV legal drama ...
“Law & Order (14:20):
SVU.”
Oh, that’s a good one. I like that
one, too.
Now, favorite food?
Tacos.
I did hear you have a sign on your
door that says, “Tacos are always
the answer.” So that was
a trick question. Yeah, easy one.
Most influential Supreme Court
Justice?
Thurgood Marshall.
(14:41):
Great answer. I like that answer as
well.
OK, pumpkin spice
latte, apple cider or hot chocolate?
Hot chocolate.
Hot chocolate. You’re a
traditionalist.
OK.
This is my favorite question I ask
all the guests.
Who’s on top of your playlist right
now?
Who's on top of? The Cramps.
The Cramps? Wow.
OK. Wasn’t expecting that one.
(15:03):
All right.
Now it’s your turn. You can ask me
anything.
Well, you’re the
leader of an incredible campus
with an incredible number of events.
I can’t imagine how many events
that you have access to
be able to attend.
I’m sure they’re all enjoyable.
What’s your favorite event of all
(15:23):
the ones you attend?
That’s a great question.
You know, we both are sports fans,
so, you know, I like to go to the
games to see our student-athletes
perform. But I would have to say my
favorite day or days of the year
are usually commencement, because
on commencement, for the most
part, everybody’s happy.
The students, their families,
faculty — everyone is happy.
(15:44):
I don’t get complaints in my inbox.
It’s usually the best day or days
of the year. So I have to say
commencement.
Kevin, I really appreciate you
joining me and spending time with
the audience and telling us about
King Hall and all the things that
are happening on our campus.
It’s an honor. Thank you.
Thanks for being here.
(16:04):
Thanks to everyone for listening.
Tune in next time on “Face to Face.”
Go, Ags!
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