Blackness Won't Save You: Christ's Sufficiency Against Cultural Religion

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
All right.
Welcome back to another podcasthere from Faith Baptist Church.
It has been a long time, and it seems likeevery time I get on, I say that because
it feels like it's always a long timebetween podcasts, but it is good to be
here, uh, and to, uh, be able to continue,uh, the discussions that we're having.

(00:50):
And, uh, today I have as a gueston the podcast, Donald Taylor,
who's been with us before.
And, uh, he drove up special justto be with us and to finish our
discussion that we had, uh, leftoff with the last time he was here.
Uh, on last time we were talkingabout the religion of blackness.

(01:14):
And, uh, and there aresome more questions.
Um, so we will, uh,continue this discussion.
It's good to have you back here.
Donald.
Welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Uh, I was just thinking one of the,uh, questions I've had, by the way, the
response from the church to the podcastfor our interviews has been overwhelming.

(01:38):
Uh, you know, everybody,uh, really appreciated.
I think it was eye-opening for them, um,in, in areas they just hadn't thought of.
You know, it not in theirworld, uh, like it has been in,
excuse me, in your world, amen.
To think about these scenes.
And so it was kind of eyeopening that way.
Um, but, uh, one of the questions I hadfrom some, uh, a couple different people

(02:04):
was, uh, how did you, I don't rememberif we went into any detail, but, uh, last
time, but obviously not for asking methis question, how did you come to Christ?
Mm.
What is your testimony?
Yeah.
So, uh, God saved me in2014 after I moved to la uh.
I came to LA in search of a new life.

(02:26):
I destroyed my life in Cal in uh, Chicago.
And so, uh, God brought me through acouple in a church in la, uh, to come to
LA and just try, try over, try it again.
Uh, try to rebuild my life.
But I had no interest inliving the life I had.
So I was looking for acompletely new, um, new life.

(02:47):
Didn't want to work the job I had,didn't want to do anything, uh, that
was connected to Chicago when I got to.
Uh, I drove Route 66 to get to laso, uh, if I wasn't an American,
I definitely was after that.
Yeah.
Uh, I was like always, uh,praise God for the topography
of the country is extraordinary.

(03:09):
In in, you mean from Chicago to here?
From Chicago to Yeah.
It is, it is.
It's so many changes.
The people are so sweet.
Uh, yeah, during my drive down duringthat time, uh, but while I was on the
road, I ran into a number of issues and,uh, they were all existential, if you
will, meaning, uh, I was leaving behindall of my problems and so I assumed that,

(03:33):
uh, the problems would be left there.
But while I was on the road by myself forabout a week and a half, it was supposed
to be two weeks, but I cut it short.
I found that the problemspersisted and so.
I still remember as the Lord wasdrawing me near, I had these moments.
Uh, for instance, I remember Iwas in a, in a, uh, in one of the

(03:56):
hotels in Kansas, I believe itwas Kansas driving, uh, route 66.
And I was looking in the mirror and wasnoticing that all the insanity that was
in my brain in Chicago was still there.
And for the first time, uh, mymind said, you're the problem.
Hmm.
The person that's in themirror is that, that was

(04:16):
an awakening for you.
Yeah.
I can no longer blame it on my family.
Yeah.
And so then, and so then,uh, yeah, it kept going.
Uh, uh, you know, I drove acrosscountry by the time I got to Vegas.
Uh, I, Vegas is not on 66, but Idecided to take a detour just to

(04:37):
see, 'cause I'd never been there.
And when I got there,it was the same thing.
You know, I, I just thought,oh, you know, I would live a
completely new life out here.
But by the time I got to Vegas, I was backinto all the foolishness that I thought
I was leaving in la I mean in Chicago.
And so again, I was faced with theconfrontation that I'm the problem.

(04:58):
And so I remember I was supposed tobe in Vegas for a few days and then
reconnected 66 to drive all the way,you know, through to Santa Monica.
Uh, but after those two instances,I was forced to confront the
fact that I'm the problem.
And so I, I just cut this trip shortand drove straight to the married couple
that was going to take care of me.
And then while I was there,I arrived in February.

(05:18):
Uh, between February, March and April.
Uh, God did a work in my own soul, uh,because I started to proceed to, uh,
seek out every single human solutionThere was every anonymous group, right?
As in alcoholics, noes, you know,there's hundreds of those kinds of
groups, especially in la they'remeeting every day in various locations.

(05:39):
So I'm going to all these groupstrying to find soce, uh, found none.
No, uh, as Colossians says, right,there's an appearance of wisdom,
but it didn't do anything to helpme to control my sinful desires.
And so, uh, it came to a head,uh, because, uh, because now

(05:59):
I was seeing that I, I myselfcannot solve my, my sin problem.
These groups that aren't solving mysin problem, they're very rigorous.
You gotta go every day.
Uh, I don't know when I'msupposed to find a job, right?
If you're going to another ofthose groups every single day,
you gotta work these steps.
Uh, and I was surrounded by peoplewho were, uh, who were depressed.

(06:22):
I mean, they're still, theywere still struggling, right?
Falling back one stepback, back another step.
And so, uh, again, I found myselfunable to deal with my sin issue.
And so then, uh, I can, I can, Ican, um, I can name the hour because
I remember, uh, I was out of work.
I, I had been working since I was nine.

(06:43):
The joke in my family is thatmy family said they weren't
gonna buy me anymore clothes.
They were only gonna feed me and house me.
You better figure out what you gotta do.
I now understand the context of that.
Having a son, I think I'm not gonnabuy another pair of pants, you know?
Uh, so I started hustling at nine,uh, cutting grass, whatever I
gotta do just to make some money.
So I've been working from nine to 34,never unemployed in any of that time.

(07:05):
Hmm.
Uh, and for the first time,I could not find work.
And I found that to be, uh, you know, youwanna say an exist existential problem.
I mean, that was a problem.
I, I, I was going on interviews.
Uh, I had a record from Chicago,so it disqualified me from a number
of professions in California.
Uh, and so I railed against God.

(07:26):
I really did.
And then one day in thechurch service, it was Easter.
Uh, still remember that one day inthe church service as the preacher
is preaching, I remember in myheart, I said, fine, whatever.
You know?
Um.
Whatever.
Uh, and, uh, I relented.

(07:48):
Uh, but when I say that, it's, um,you know, I, I, I applaud those
people who they hear the wordand then the light shines upon
their souls and they follow God.
I did not have that experience.
I was, I was brought in.
I know I'm not the only one.
I was brought in, you know, screamingand kicking fine, whatever you say.
I remember the actual words orwhatever, dude, whatever you say,

(08:09):
I'll, I'll do it, whatever, you know.
Um, and it was in that moment,uh, somebody actually commented
that they looked at me and noticedthat there was a shift in me,
huh
uh, but in that moment, I, I feltlike something inside of me broke.
Uh, and I went to the bathroom and Iremember I was washing my hands and
just looking in the mirror, tryingto figure out what's happening.

(08:30):
Something's happening.
And um, and all I remember is that Iwalked out of that bathroom saved, huh.
And then.
The pastor is so, so wise.
Um, I was in the church thatbaptized right away, and I think
that was good for my own faith.
I don't think I could have waited,like some churches do, you know,
we're baptized in a couple of weeks.

(08:51):
I don't think I could have done that.
But he did tell me, you go home andyou count the cause first 'cause
we're not doing all this, you know,uh, just so you can fall back.
'cause he knew that I had a habit ofconfessing and then, uh, falling back.
And so then, uh, you know, counted ofthe cause with another brother there, uh,
was baptized that night and no lie thatday, that day, uh, all those voices that

(09:17):
were in my head, there were thousandsof voices in my head just screaming.
And I don't know if it was deemedpossession or what, I don't know,
but my mind was, was wreckedwith voices, uh, yelling and
screaming, telling me what to do.
Uh, that day all those voices went away.
Uh, and now there's only one voice.
Uh, and so, uh.

(09:37):
I'm not a continuation, so Iassume that that's my conscience.
But I do know that there'sonly one voice in my head.
It's an extremely peaceful environmentin my head now, uh, since 2014.
Uh, and God gave me instant, uh, freedomfrom a number of vices that I have been
struggling with from seven to 34, and theyimmediately went away without a need for

(10:02):
anonymous groups or anything like that.
That's amazing.
So that's how the Lord brought me
to him.
Yeah.
It was a testimony ofthe power of the gospel.
Yeah.
And it's not always so dramatic.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I, I've heard testimoniesof people in vices being removed
and, uh, but I think the norm mm-hmm.

(10:24):
Um, is, you know, yougotta, you gotta battle.
But you have the spirit,now you have the word Yes.
Yes.
And, uh, you, you learn sanctification.
Yeah.
God doesn't just give it to you.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but it is a gift of God.
Yes.
You know, what is it?
Flippings two, um, uh, 12 and 13.
Mm-hmm.

(10:44):
You know, work out your ownsalvation with fear and trembling.
Mm-hmm.
And that's easy to, to, youknow, grab a hold of like Yeah,
I know I'm supposed to do Yeah.
These things that, that I've beencalled to do and I'm supposed to,
you know, overcome sin all this.
But then, you know, the nextverse says, Fort is God who
works, and you book the will.
Yes.
Yes.
And to do, and it's, it'skind of like, it's just, yeah.

(11:07):
It's, it's so comforting.
Yeah.
And, and I, and, and I, I praise hisname because he brought me to the place
where I could no longer depend on myself.
I had to depend on him to do the work.
Yeah.
And you know, when people.
I ask, you know, I, I tell 'em, I just,you do not understand the depths and the

(11:31):
extent to which I went for salvation.
I mean, going to different cities,searching, I mean, searching out every
single path I could in order to find it.
And then the anger that was in my heartwhen I realized all I had to do was
come to you and it wasn't the rightkind of anger as an anger at myself.
It was anger at him thinkingthat he had hit the path.

(11:53):
But then when I look back withsanctified eyes, I see, hmm.
That path has been of the entire time.
There's so many times, even when I, okay.
Not to go too deep into this, but Iwas, I, I initially was pulled into
the international churches of Christ.
And I think that, that, that, that,that group was a haven for me.
Hmm.
Uh, that kept me out of some thingsI really could have got into.

(12:16):
But I still remember when we sat downfor the Bible said, if you don't know,
they have these series of Bible studiesthat you go through before you join
the church, uh, in order for you tobe, um, taught in their doctrine in
the doctrine of the Church of Christ.
And I still remember in the first, inthe first Bible study we were going
through Luke, and I remember when heread the passage to me, I, I, I told

(12:36):
him, I've never heard that before.
You know, uh, that's, that's new.
You know what kind of Bible you got here?
It was just the NIV.
So, you know, it's notanything revolutionary.
But I remember when he asked,I was presented with an
opportunity to confess my sin.
And, you know, I hear people,you know, they, they were, you
shouldn't have to do all that.

(12:56):
Okay.
But how did I respond to that?
I lied.
I lied.
I constructed a whole lifethat I did not want to confess.
Well, because I didn't want toconfess my operational life.
Right?
Right.
And when I look back with sanctifiedeyes, I think to myself, man, if I
would've submitted and confessed.
Honestly, what was going on in myheart and the life that I was living,

(13:17):
could I have been saved at that?
You know?
Right.
You think about the times Godwas always there offering,
dude, dude, dude, do, dude.
You know, but I said, no, no, no, no, no.
You know?
Yeah.
And he already knew when hehad already willed the day
that he was gonna save my soul.
But looking back, you know, I just, yeah.
I, I just think, man, there are somany opportunities, but it was in
order to drive me to the place Yeah.

(13:38):
Where I no longer search foranything else for answers, you know,
that's what he does.
Right.
He breaks down our will if,if we could put it that way.
Mm-hmm.
He redeems our will.
He's, he frees our willbecause we are slaves.
Mm-hmm.
To our will or our desires mm-hmm.
Is another way to put it.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, he, he does that and it's like,you know, yes, God is sovereign, um, but.

(14:05):
That doesn't mean we, wedon't have responsibility.
Right.
Of we absolutely have responsibility.
So he's calling, calling, calling, andhe brings us to this point to where,
um, where we've got nothing else.
Nothing.
You know, and, and we're justlike, Lord, please, you know,
we're, we're going through acts onThursday night with, with the guys.
And one of the things, you know, itsays, uh, in, in Acts chapter one

(14:27):
that they, you know, they cross overto Jerusalem from the Kidron Valley
there, and then they go up to the upperroom where Jesus had appeared to them.
Mm-hmm.
And they're praying all in one accord.
Mm-hmm.
And there's this earnestness there,and I'm thinking, wait a minute.
Like when Jesus was in the garden.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And he's praying and they're fallingasleep like Jesus is with them.

(14:49):
And, and they don't, they don't pray.
They just fall asleep.
Yeah.
It's like, what changed?
Now there's like thisearnestness, like, what changed?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, what changed?
Well, Jesus isn't with them.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it is one thingI, there there's more to it.
And I, I think, uh, I feel likethere's more, we're, we're gonna.
I need to dig into this.
Sure.
We're gonna, I'll be preaching this soon,but I just think that's fascinating.

(15:09):
Like there's a desperation.
Mm-hmm.
You know, Jesus has just ascended.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, and they probablyfelt like, what do we do now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What are we, what are we supposed to do?
Well, I don't know, man.
And, and then, uh, you know,the Jews are still seeking all
those associated with Jesus.
So there's, I mean Sure.
There's all kinds of questions.

(15:29):
Yeah.
And, uh, but the, the, there's this,I think this desperate dependence
that, that's developed there.
Yes, yes.
Very early on in the church.
And it becomes a consistentthing throughout the church.
And this is what God is doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if, if we're not there and webelong to him, we will be brought there.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
He is skillful in his surgery.

(15:50):
Yeah.
He will get us there.
He will.
So, um, yeah.
And you know, and I thinkthat we find ourselves going.
Back and forth on that too, don't we?
Mm-hmm.
Like there's times where we know,we know we're supposed to watch
and pray, but we're falling asleep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
E even after all the things that we'vegone through and it, and we have to
be reminded over and over again thatwe cannot depend on us on the flesh.

(16:14):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, not on ourselves, on the one whoworks in this mightily as the only hope.
Mm-hmm.
So, well that's, uh, that, that'sa great testimony to, uh, God's
grace, his sovereign grace.
Yes.
Yes.
He's absolutely sovereign.
Doing what you could not do throughall of the, I think that's fascinating.
All of the human, um,prescriptions and mm-hmm.

(16:36):
And, and, uh, you know, the self-helpstuff, even though they're, you
know, like the Alcoholics Anonymouspushing the, the higher power.
Yeah.
It's still not enough.
I mean, it isn't a higher power.
It is the only power.
Yeah.
And it is the power of the gospel,which is why Paul says, I'm not
ashamed to the power of the gospelfor it is the power under salvation.

(16:56):
Mm-hmm.
It's the only hope.
Uh, and so this began, uh,the, the quest for you then
growing in your sanctification.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, we've talked about some ofthat as you've been working to, um,
to have a sanctified and renewed mind.
Mm-hmm.
You know, uh, coming from thereligion of blackness mm-hmm.

(17:19):
To the, the only true religion.
Yeah.
Which is, uh, the, you know, theidentity not of being black, but
that of being, you know, Christianor being under, under Christ.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I, we, we kind of talked aboutthat last time, but I wanna continue
the conversation because I think wehad questions, uh, from last time about

(17:40):
how, you know, we move forward mm-hmm.
In, um, in, in, in, and in havingconversations about, you know, racial
categories in, in things like that.
And I, I kind of wanna pick upthere, um, like how do we talk about.
These scenes, I feel like we'rekind of jumping in a little bit.
So if you haven't, if you don't knowwhat I'm talking about, go back and

(18:01):
listen to the, uh, there, there are twodifferent podcasts that were put out.
Uh, I can't remember what they're called.
I think the first one'sa Religion of blackness.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I don't remember the next one,but that'll get us, you know, any,
any of our listeners caught up.
But, uh, but let's justkind of jump in there.
How, how do we talk about, uh, as you'vemoved forward, you've thought through
this, and I know you continue to think

(18:21):
mm-hmm.
Through this, how do we, uh,work through these categories?
Uh, if, you know, if we're, ifour identity is not in the, the
color of our skin, is that, isthat a way I don't even know.
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
I, so one of the presuppositionsthat one has to have is that,

(18:43):
uh, we are a new creation.
Yeah.
The, the beauty of being a new creation,right, is that you are reconciled to God.
The challenge of being a new creationis you have to define what that means.
So when I think about, um, Romans12, uh, turning there real quickly
when I think about Romans 12, right.

(19:04):
Therefore, verse one, therefore, I urgeyou, brethren, by the mercies of God
to present your bodies of living andholy sacrifice acceptable to God, which
is your spiritual service of worship.
Verse two, and do not be conformedto this world, but be transformed by
the renewing of your mind so that youmay prove what the will of God is.

(19:24):
That which is good andacceptable and perfect.
Right?
The transformation
that Paul is talking abouthere is comprehensive.
Now there's, I, I'm of coursepushing forward there because the
transformation is an ongoing thingand it will be, you know, fully
realized in our new glorified bodies.

(19:45):
This is true of all of us.
It is a comprehensivetransformation, but it's.
So, so that is, you know, collectivelywe're going toward the perfect
knowledge of the perfect will of God.
Yes.
But individually, we all arecoming from different places.
Yeah.
Yes.
And so your journey.
Yeah.
And so, and so what that meant wasthat every, I don't know how I was

(20:07):
brought to that, to the conclusion.
Oh no.
I was brought to it actually, uh,in the church that I was a part of.
I've been part of thatbody for about 20 years.
Uh, as a non-believer, Ithought I was a believer
back, back in Chicago.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so when you start hearingstrong preaching, which I was

(20:29):
hearing on the radio, uh, therewas, uh, Alistair Begg in Cleveland.
I believe it was in Cleveland andMacArthur in, uh, in, uh, sun Valley.
So I'm hearing this on the radioand I'm just listening to the
radio because I'm religious.
That's,
that's what religious people do.
You don't listen to, you know, WGCI,people in Chicago know what that is.
You don't listen to.
These other stations youlisten to K Love, you know.

(20:51):
So that was your, that was your, um,your music experience growing up.
Like you're listening to K Love Kind.
Well, I know K Love wasaround back then, but Yeah.
But lots of gospel music.
Yeah.
That kind of stuff.
Uh, there's, yeah, yeah.
I, yeah, definitely had otherinputs, but it was usually
in opposition to my parents.
Yeah.
And so I'm hearing this, I'm hearingthis preaching from Beg and MacArthur,

(21:16):
beg in particular was captivatingbecause he did it all in 30 minutes.
And I find that to be really weird, youknow, that you can do that so much in
30 minutes, because of course, MacArthuris two to three different episodes,
you know, throughout the week inorder for you to hear the full sermon.
Uh, well, when you have a teamof editors, you know, I mean,
you do what you gotta do.

(21:37):
Uh, but what I found in both cases wasthat these men spoke, uh, clearly that the
way to think is, according to scripture.
I had never heard that before.
I had heard that you, youtransformed your habits.
Yeah.
But
your mind is not transformed.

(21:57):
And, but then you have somebody like,like MacArthur and like Beck who are
making these comments in their sermonsabout No, it's your mind as well.
So this, so, so, so what that meantfor me was that I needed to start
interrogating, which is what I wastrained to do at university, right?
I went to University of Columbia andColumbia's known for interrogating
and burn down everything.

(22:18):
And so actually that, that, that penchantfor interrogating the system that you are
in worked in my favor because then it mademe start to interrogate everything I've
ever been taught in light of scripture.
Then, uh, what ends up happening andI'm, I'm, I am, uh, answering your

(22:38):
question about kind of, you know,where do we go from here and how do
we even start, uh, not to make thisa commercial, but we visited the arc.
Hmm.
In Kentucky, uh,
that place is a mind shift in anumber for a number of reasons.

(22:59):
One reason it's a mind shift just foranybody who's ever been to a theme
park, uh, is because the whole, thewhole environment is, is, is orderly,
which is not like a theme park.
I just went to a couple last month.
Yeah.
Kids are having tantrums everywhere.
At the arc are you'retalking about the people Yes.
At the arc. Yeah.

(23:19):
Yeah.
The people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All the people are under control atthe, well, they're all Christians.
Yeah.
You know, that's, that'swhat the Christians do.
Right.
And so it's, it, it wasthe weirdest environment.
And what it does though is that itforces you to focus on the content.
And I, and I still remember thatwas the first time that I heard
a president, a presenter, makethis comment about we all brown.

(23:40):
And I thought.
Well, that's weird, huh?
Okay.
I've never heard that before.
'cause in the, in the system I camefrom, the only brown people were here,
Hispanics, nobody else was brown.
Right.
Uh, and so, but then when you go tothe Creation Museum, you're confronted
with Genesis one through three.

(24:01):
Are we all actually fromAdam at the same time?
I'm going to these presentationsat the Masters University because
they, there was some, uh, uh, theGenome project they were starting
to release for public consumption.
Their findings and their findingsis that they find that all, if I
remember correctly, uh, please,you know, send corrections in
the comments if there are any.

(24:22):
Uh, but all of the genomes that theycollected, all bottleneck to three people.
Huh?
Anybody who knows theBible knows who those are.
Right.
Shim, Hammond, Jacob.
Yeah, that's right.
So we're coming on the heelsof, of the arc. Where is this?
They're extremely confrontationaland you should be.
If, if you believe, you knowwhat the word of God says,

(24:42):
you should be confrontational.
And if you're wrong,you'll change, you know?
Uh, but it's making me sit hereand think, so what, you know,
making me think about these things.
And so what I encourage people to do whenasked, you know, I wanna be clear 'cause
this is not a top tier gospel issue.

(25:03):
So I don't wanna act like it is, meaningI don't think it's something you have
to adhere to in order to be saved.
Uh, but if given the opportunityin scripture, uh, you know, through
expositional preaching or if asked aboutit, I will be clear that, uh, that a
system that was constructed becausethey intentionally and explicitly wanted

(25:29):
to divorce themselves from scriptureshould be interrogated before you
contribute to it or capitulate to it.
And the coloration of the races,quote unquote, was indirect, was
downstream directly from a decision toseparate the sciences from the Bible.

(25:52):
Right.
So this is a recent,
when
you
say that, that's four or 500 years.
Four or 500 years, yeah.
EZ uh, was the guy, I can't rememberthe year, but EU was the guy that came
up with the ma, the four major colors.
Okay.
Um, I, I didn't know that there
was a guy who actually,uh, worked through that.

(26:13):
So four or 500 years, and it was, sofour or 500 years we're, we're dealing
with, uh, post-enlightenment kind of Yes.
Kind of stuff.
So, which, which enlightenmenteventually, you know, becomes rationalism.
Right.
Which is all about divorcing Right.
From the Bible as the, as the authority.
Yes.

(26:33):
And I want to give a correction.
1700. 1700. Okay.
So that's, yeah.
Four.
That's, that's three.
Four.
Yep.
That's, you know, enlightenment.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, a product of the Enlightenment.
Yes.
Um, which, that ourentire culture is mm-hmm.
Currently a product of mm-hmm.
Of the enlightenment, which wasthe goal of divorcing us from

(26:55):
the authority of scripture.
Yeah.
Uh, well, I don't know.
It's what it became.
Yes.
And the rationalism.
So, and what you're saying isthat we have these categories, you
know, uh, EU comes up with, uh,and, and others follow through.
So, so it becomes thisphilosophical system mm-hmm.
That is mm-hmm.
That is being developed,trying to classify humans.

(27:18):
Um, by their skin tones.
Right?
By their skin
tones and their, uh, cultural development.
Right.
And
so you are suggesting that to ascribeto that, like if I, if I say, uh,
you, you are black, I'm white, youknow, a Hispanic, uh, is brown, that
I'm contributing to that, that, uh,classification, which was designed,

(27:40):
uh, to, uh, nefariously, right?
Yeah.
In, in, in some way.
So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'mcontributing to that.
I'm, and, and is thata good way to put it?
Potentially,
you know, I, I, I wanna be carefulnot to bind the conscience Yeah.
Of any saints, uh, especiallythe Sweet Saints here at Faith.
Uh.

(28:02):
What I'm saying is, okay, youknow, we're all men of our culture.
We're all women of our culture.
We all, we're all kind of steepingin that hot water with that frog.
Right?
Yeah.
We dunno, the metaphor that's, that is,
that is an, we were just talkingabout that before we started.
We absolutely there is.
You can't separate churchculture from the culture around.
We're all influenced by it.
Yes,
that's correct.
And so when I, when I talk about it,uh, what I'm talking about is, uh,

(28:28):
within the walls of our churches,within the, you know, little c
Catholic body of Christ mm-hmm.
Uh, these racial categoriesneed to be interrogated.
Right.
And by, and, and you're beingpurposeful in that use of interrogated.
'cause you don't, you're, you're purposelynot using the word dis deconstructed.
Right.
I, I do think individuals will do so.

(28:50):
Like for instance, uh, I saw a recentvideo from Ken Ham who's down at the
ark, and he talked about how maybe20, 30 years ago he did a presentation
where he pulled up a sheet of paper andhe said, the sheet of paper is white.
Yeah.
I am not, yeah.
You know, to, to, to confront it.
And so I don't, I don't think that, Idon't think that it's something that

(29:13):
is required to be preached from thepulpit unless the text demands it.
And there's very few texts that demand it.
Maybe three I can think of off thetop of my head that demands a, a,
a, a true exegesis and explanationof what we're talking about here.
But other than that, um, I do thinkthough that in moving towards, you
know, full transformation and movingtowards, you know, existing with

(29:38):
God face to face in the kingdom ofGod, uh, I do think it is proper.
Number one, that it's interrogated,and then when the opportunities present
themselves to be rigorous in ourinterrogation and understand that these
are categories that are not from God.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I, I hear what you'resaying, especially having, you know,
had this conversation with you mm-hmm.

(30:00):
Which for me was eye-opening because, youknow, your worldview or, or your, your
background is way different than mine.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I wasn't pushed in as muchas, you know, I'm told that I am, I've
got white privilege in, in all of this.
I was never, I mean, look at your office.
Right.
I was never pushed intoa religion of whiteness.

(30:20):
Right.
You know, uh, I mean, myculture is my culture.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's all I've known.
Mm-hmm.
But there's the, the, the natural,and to me it's, you know, humans.
Are intelligent and part ofintelligence is classification, right.
Is what we do.
Yes.
That's what, that's one of thereflections of the image of God.

(30:43):
Mm-hmm.
Which we see in Genesis one.
Mm-hmm.
When he creates and, andyou see distinction mm-hmm.
In, in that creation, it's not alljust lumped into one, even to the point
where there's male and there's female.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and we know in, in passages likeEphesians two and in, uh, uh, Galatians
that in Christ there is no male,there's female, there's no mm-hmm.

(31:05):
You know, the, these categoriesare wiped out, but we're, we're
dealing with spiritual realities.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and that, you know, that's theonly where egal, the place where
egalitarianism, uh, I I is true.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that, that we are all in the samestanding before Christ as humans.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
There's no distinction in that way.

(31:26):
But, uh, we we're not conflating.
Spiritual categories withphysical categories, because we're
intelligent, we recognize that there'sdistinctions that need to be made.
And so that's, and I'm using alot of words to say, how in the
world are we supposed to talk?
Yes.
If we're removing categories, and Iknow you're, I know you have an, an

(31:50):
'cause you've thought about this.
Mm-hmm.
But it sounds like you're sayingwe, we can't speak in, uh,
the, the, the reason the, thesecategories that were created mm-hmm.
Were used to promote, um, an agenda.
Mm-hmm.
And that, that, you know, that agendahas, has reed untold destruction.
And it is true.

(32:10):
It has.
Uh, but how do we, 'causeclearly your tone, your skin
tone is different than mine.
Your cultural upbringing isdifferent than mine mm-hmm.
Than the Hispanic, than, you know,than, you know, than Indian or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Uh.
How, how do we think about this?

(32:30):
Yeah.
Uh, there does need to be a reeducation.
And what I mean by that is, uh,pulling oneself more in line
with scriptural categories.
Somebody asked me, what does that mean?
We need to call things creepy things,you know, creepy calls things right.
Instead of, uh, and I said,well, if that's what's necessary,
that's what's necessary.
But it's, it's, but what I'mtalking about is, uh, there is,

(32:55):
I do think it's incumbent uponGod's people to think biblically.
Okay?
And so where God hasmade statements about it,
then I, I think it's in our bestinterest to move in that direction.
And so if I talk about my own trajectorywhen it comes to this, then maybe three,

(33:16):
four years ago, maybe five at the most.
But what ended up happening wasthat those terms just started
to fall outta my lexicon.
Then it forced me intellectuallyto start to dis start to deal
with, well how do I discuss this?
And it's funny because I'm even facedwith this at work, because at work
I teach first grade in public schooland every year at the end of the

(33:38):
year, what we have to do is we haveto reconfigure the classrooms based on
behavioral, uh, indicators, based onracial markers and based on language
and all and academic achievement, whichis very low 'cause it's public school.
Now what's interesting is thatevery once in a while you run into
a child that based on the photographthat is in the student information

(34:00):
system, you make a categorization.
Then you go into the student informationsystem to find their identification card.
It is not what you think it is.
I remember one parent in particularsaid, why do you people keep
calling my daughter black?
She's not, she's Alaskan.
I have no idea what that means.
Okay.
But it is a category on thereit says Alaskan or Pacific

(34:20):
Islander, something like that.
And so.
She was the first person that was maybesix, seven years ago, was the first
person, first time I was hip to wait.
Oh, I can't tell what youare by looking at you.
Okay.
And so then every year at work, we have togo through this process because they force
us to do this, to make sure all the blacksare, you know, equally desegregated.
You know, my secondgrade, all the Hispanics.

(34:42):
So we have to literally go through andactually find, oh, you're not actually
Hispanic, only your parents are black.
Okay, well then that, that means youhave to move you to another class.
And so even logistically, every year I'mconfronted with the fact that I can't
tell what you are just by looking at you.
And so then what ends up happeningis, I mean, it's only accelerated
it, but again, the thing that I,that I suggest is just for people to

(35:04):
move closer to biblical categories.
It's where God has categorized things, uh,and, and as far as how to identify people.
Right.
God has given categories for that.
I mean, of course the biggest ones is theSaints and the Ains, as some people say.
That's the big category, right.
Besides, you know, Jews and Gentiles.

(35:25):
Right.
Uh, but then from there, there,there are ways to break it down.
Uh, and I'm still working on the moreminuscule, uh, identifiers, but, uh,
but there's enough that I can go on, uh,that I don't use those terms any longer.
So,
I mean, um, my, my boyshave a, a good friend.

(35:46):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, which he's, he's very dark.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but we, we always kindof joke he's not black.
Mm-hmm.
Because he's from Jamaica.
Oh, right, yes, yes, yes.
So it doesn't count.
Yes, I met him.
Yes.
Sweet guy.
Hey, he's a great guy.
Uh, but you're, you're notblack, you're Jamaican.
Uh, which is just kind of the,the running joke, but Yes.

(36:07):
But.
Like, it's more than a joke.
It's true.
Like he doesn't have, yes.
And they say that in
New York, I'm not black, I'm Jamaica,
they say, right.
He doesn't have these kindof, this, this, this baggage.
Right.
That comes with the term black.
He doesn't like, he's got a totaldifferent, I mean, he lived in
Georgia for a while, so he, youknow, some of that, but, uh, but
his culture is very different.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But your, what we would say culturally,like everything, like you, you,

(36:33):
you're, you're stereotypically black.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Having, I mean, you were,you know, in Chicago.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, in, I mean, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonnaspeak of your culture, I'm gonna say you,
you're part, you're the black culture.
Sure.
Sure.
So, even as I say that I, like,I'm using categories that I'm

(36:53):
trying to describe a culture.
Right.
And I'm making a distinction betweenthat and, and, you know, my, my
son's Jamaican friends, right.
Which he's Jamaican.
Mm-hmm.
It's very distinct in that way.
So is that.
Is, and, and I understandthat the term black mm-hmm.
Is loaded.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

(37:15):
Uh, but I'm, I'm just curious,like how, 'cause we're making
those distinctions mm-hmm.
Like, uh, you're, you're,you're, you know, Chicagoan.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I could say that.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm trying to, I'm trying to grabthat culture when I use that term.
Like how I, I I, I'm still strugglingwith how to think through this.
Yeah.
I mean, if you, if you talk aboutit on cultural terms, I have

(37:37):
heard some really good explan,uh, really good, um, how do I say?
Yeah.
Explanations for a good use of that term.
Uh, black being applied to a culture Yeah.
Which involve, which can includepeople who look like whatever.
Yeah.
The challenge that, thatI faced and that many.
People face.

(37:57):
Uh, some of them are justpolitical challenges.
Uh, but again, that's kind of outsideof the realm of what I'm discussing.
But they're dealing with the sameissue in the political sphere.
Political as in, uh, electoral politics,uh, is that you are jettisoned or you
exit the black culture because there arecertain indicators you no longer exhibit.
Right.
You're no longer black.
Right.
I mean, you're no longer a believer.

(38:18):
Yeah.
I mean, even the shirt I'm wearing.
Yeah.
Which, you know, faith, family freedom,you know, uh, I forgot what the last one
was, but hey, you get American flag on.
Yeah.
I mean, I am, I am almostinstantaneously, no longer black.
Yeah, right.
Uh, because I don't do that.
I don't listen to the music.
That the culture listens toand, and don't get it twisted.

(38:38):
It is a, oh, I'm sorry.
Don't get me wrong.
That is there, there is a thing, I'm stilltrying to figure out how to discuss it,
but the best way I've heard it discussis there is a black culture when I
was in New Orleans, it is thick there.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean it is, I I, right.
It's almost, it's not oppressive,but it, it presses on you because
of just how it's unmistakable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so there is something there.

(39:00):
Yeah.
But I also understood that as much asI, as much as there is an affinity,
because I am comfortable, meaning myears, I, I am fluent in the markers.
Right.
I know what I'm hearingwhen I hear you say things.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, using the words that they use,I'm no longer in that culture.
I have been ripped from that cultureby being placed in the body of Christ.

(39:23):
And why, because many of the markersthat identify that culture no longer,
I can no longer identify with.
Right.
The music production, the arts andentertainment situation that they have
going on, uh, even the way they dobusiness practices, the partiality that
that exists within the black culture,uh, the way that they spend their money.

(39:46):
I mean, all these things are, areforeign to one who thinks like Christ.
Yeah.
You're you're being transformed.
Yeah.
I mean, your entireculture is being shaped.
Yes.
And there, there's a whole new, uh,dynamic, you know, in, in your family.
Now you're Yes.
You're not, you're not raisingyour, your, your child.

(40:08):
Yeah.
On these ca this way of thinking.
Everything's changed.
Yeah.
Everything's different.
Yeah.
So, and that's what you're saying,which makes it makes sense.
Like I hear, I hear that.
Um, but I, I think it's still challengingand I think when, when you're, what,
what you're saying here is really.

(40:30):
You're driving toward the church?
Yes.
Like how do we thinkof us as new creation?
Right.
And and there are, there andthere are, um, there are three
camps, at least three camps, okay.
That, that want to havea say in this matter.
Right.
Uh, there's a camp on the left who aremore radical in their presentation.

(40:56):
People like James Cone who says that ifyou, if your theology, I'm paraphrasing,
if your theology is in opposition to blacksocial justice, you are the antichrist.
Yeah.
It was in, uh, I think it'scalled Black Power in Revelation.
I think it was the name ofthat article also in, uh, a

(41:17):
Black Theology of Liberation.
Uh, he talks about the only way foryou to be a Christian is to be black,
and there is a way for you to becomeblack, even if you're not black.
Uh, but if you are not black.
Uh, then you are not a Christianif you are, if you are not
willing to become black.
Right.
It's his, it's his main thrust.

(41:37):
Yeah.
And again, that's the wholereligion of blackness, right?
That that is, that that has beenlinked by James Cohen and guys like
him to, to a biblical theology.
Yes.
And, and, and in the so-called blackchurch, uh, it is rife with that.
I mean, I was just reading through a a,a New York Times article from 1966, if I

(41:59):
remember correctly, that was put in thereby the, I think it's called the National,
oh, national Congress of Black Pastors, Ithink is what it's called, black Clergy.
Uh, where they, where they gavean explanation for why they
back the phrase black power andall that it means politically.
Uh, and that the only reason thatthe so-called white folks are
uncomfortable with is because theydon't wanna lose their privilege.

(42:22):
And this was in the sixties, right.
The think that this, now that'sthe one camp and that camp to
a certain extent, that camp.
Easier to dismiss.
Yeah.
And James, James Cone isconsidered a radical by Yes.
The, the vast majority of Yes.
Of people within the church.
Yes.
And he's, he's, he's far left andeveryone is like, well, you know,
that's just, that's just him.
And when I say he's easily dismissed,I do not mean by people that

(42:44):
are in the so-called preacher.
Right.
And that, and I think that's interestingpoint that you make there, because when
you say black church, you know, up untilthese discussions, my, my thinking has
always been well just, you know, thosewho, uh, people who's predominantly
defined by the color of their skin.
Mm-hmm.
And, and now I'm like, no, blackchurch is a, is a, is an entire system.

(43:08):
Oh.
It's an aesthetic that Right.
It's, it's so much more than the skin.
Yes.
It's an entire, you know, religion.
Yes.
Uh, and I think that's really important tomake that distinction, which is why, um.
There shouldn't be a black church.
No, not
at all.
That
shouldn't, not at all.
Shouldn't even be a thing.
Not at all.
Uh, and we can, we can talk aboutthe same thing with, you know,

(43:30):
with, with various other Sure.
Ethnic groups that isolate.
Mm-hmm.
And I realize that language is a naturaldivider and it's hard to overcome that.
But if you are just associatingwith people because of
your nationalistic mm-hmm.
Uh, you both, your national, uh, nationor whatever, um, that's not what the
body of Christ is supposed to be doing.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.

(43:50):
We, we are from everytribe and every tongue.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and that doesn't mean that doesn'tnaturally happen because of areas and
like, I'm not, I'm not saying that,you know, like, um, you know, that,
that if you don't have enough, youknow, dark-skinned, colored mm-hmm.
Diskin, darker skinned people orAsian colored or whatever mm-hmm.
You need to go out and seekthem out and bring them in.

(44:11):
Right.
Uh, 'cause that's nonsense.
Right.
Like, I think it's, it's, it justnaturally should be what mm-hmm.
What it should be.
But anyway, uh.
So that, that's important to Yeah,
that's, yeah.
And that's, and that's one group, right?
There's another group that would, thatsome would say is on the other extreme.
The other group, on the other extreme,they have the audacity to simply

(44:33):
want to preach the word of God.
Uhoh, are you calling me The extremist?
Is that, I know, right?
I right.
They're not interested in all of these,you know, uh, political wranglings.
They just want to preach the word andthey just want to shepherd God's flock.
That's all they want to do.
Uh, and so then what ends up happeningis that they are seen as apathetic.

(44:54):
Right?
And what I mean by apathetic is thatwhen tragedies happen, their, their
response is less than passionate.
And so then people assume that thatmeans that they have no compassion.
And, uh, and so then they are accused.
This is where you get phraseslike white privilege, right?
They're accused.
Of having, uh, of having of, of not caringabout people who are so-called oppressed.

(45:18):
Yeah.
They're in the bubble.
Right.
So
they don't, they, they don't even Right.
They, they don't evencare or don't see it.
Yeah.
Because their whole worldis just white privilege.
Yeah.
That, yeah.
That's the assumption.
Uh, I would be in that group.
Yeah.
You're, you, you, youand your white privilege.
Yeah.
The, the, so the third groupis the one that, since our last

(45:41):
conversation, the third group isthe one I'm most concerned with.
Uh, uh, back when theywere producing more books.
They're not producing asmany books lately, but they,
they, they tout themselves astrying to create a third way.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, you know, I don't wantto be radically to the left.
I don't want to be apathetic to the right,but I wanna be somewhere in the middle,

(46:02):
some middle, middle, themiddle, mushy, middle.
Yes.
Oh man.
Mushy, middle.
Yeah.
So destructive.
And they.
They, number one, you know, their writing,I've been reading through a, a little
bit of it the last, uh, week or so.
And, uh, their writingis extremely seductive.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, what makes it seductive?
Because they, they use scripture, andI can now say this, uh, with probably

(46:28):
very little exegetical precision.
Precision, precision.
They're making applications thatbind the conscience of the reader.
Yeah.
And so, for instance, uh, oneof the men that are in that, in
that camp, uh, Eric Mason Yeah.
Is his, oh yeah.
He, uh, yeah.
He argues that, uh, since we havethe, I think it's, since we have

(46:53):
the Ministry of Reconciliation,then we are required to facilitate
reconciliation between the races.
Yeah.
Now anybody who goes to that text.
Knows that the reconciliation thatPaul is talking about is us to God.
Yeah.
It's not one to another.
Yeah.
That can be, that could beargued from another text, but

(47:15):
it's not argued from that text.
Yeah.
But he makes it, and him anda number of other authors
make it a, uh, a gospel issue.
They do.
Yeah.
And, and so then what ends up happeningis that my issue with, with their writings
is, number one, it comes off as sound.
Yeah.

(47:35):
Right.
But number two, I am, you know,I'll be honest, I'm willing to
allow you to make arguments about.
About you make suggestions based onhow you understand certain texts.
Mm-hmm.
We can disagree about these things.
The thing that, the thing that I findmost abhorrent is that they bind you to
act to actually have to do something.

(47:56):
Yeah.
And if you do not dosomething, you are in sin.
Yeah.
And that's where, um, that's where I,that's where I, that's where I draw
the line where, um, uh, if I may speakforcefully, you're, you're not allowed
to bind the consciousness of God's peoplewith things that he did not command.
That's right.
But that aren't
direct inferences.
Yes.

(48:16):
Yeah.
And their, their, their, theircontention about racial reconciliation,
how do they define that?
They define number one, asa so-called white person.
Your job is to sit quietly.
Yeah.
Listen for understanding.
Yeah.
Uh, and then, but, but your responseafter listening for understanding.
Must be along the lines thatthey define as compassionate.

(48:40):
Yeah.
So if your response is anythingless than what they would define as
compassionate, then you are in sin.
Yeah.
Uh, what that means for you,uh, as far as your action is
concerned, you are to align.
I mean, they argue for the samething that James Comer argues for.
You have to align with theblack social justice movement.
And that, by the way, that term is not newto the, you know, late 2020s or whatever.

(49:02):
It, it is not new to the recent Yeah.
Uh, time.
Uh, it is, it is an old term, atleast old, old as in older than I am.
I'm 46.
It's older than me.
Uh, and so when they're using thesephrases, they are, they are hearkening
back to people like Martin King.
Yeah.
And Malcolm X. Uh, they are not.

(49:24):
And Nat Turner, if you wanna look him up.
Uh, WB Du Bois, they're hearkeningback to over a hundred years of,
of baggage when they say that.
Uh, and then what doesblack social justice mean?
I mean, this has been well-definedin other places, but they demand
that the Christian moves in thedirection that relieves the poverty

(49:44):
of black people by giving them money.
Yeah.
For lack of a better, by giving 'em stuff.
And that if you are not in aline with it, you are in sin.
Yeah.
And those are the people that I found,you know, uh, between I would say 2019
until now, those are the people that,that the Christians are listening to.
Yeah.
And, and, and in mass.

(50:07):
Yes.
Yes.
We're not talking about, you know,we're worried about them and the rising,
like they, they, they predominate Yes.
The church.
Yes.
And, uh, I, I, I think that, um.
You, you mentioned itearlier, like it's seductive.
Mm-hmm.

(50:27):
And it's, I, I've beenthinking about this a lot.
Like, what is the seduction?
Why do you have guyswho know their theology?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because I, I've, I, I, I've seen this,these, you know, I've had pastors mm-hmm.
Who, I mean, some guys that I'velooked up to, uh, been under his

(50:48):
ministry, uh, and I don't, I don'twant to, 'cause I care about him.
I don't wanna call 'em out.
Sure, sure.
But go, go this direction.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it's, it's heartbreaking.
I, I, I just watching that, it'sjust so heartbreaking and it's,
it's not, uh, I mean, it's a, it'sa, it's, it's not a minor thing.

(51:11):
Uh, and it, and it like,how did we get here?
Yeah.
Well.
It's like what you're saying,you don't get down into the text.
Mm-hmm.
Everything's very broad.
Theologies, yes.
Biblical theologies, topical messages.
But even with the text, there'll be atext, uh, and, and we gotta get to the
point of the text, but it becomes, youknow, like MacArthur, you know, he,

(51:36):
uh, he just passed away a few days ago.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but he wasn't, was astalwart, he was an example of,
of somebody who dug deep mm-hmm.
Into the text.
Mm-hmm.
And when you do that, youcome under direct, you know,
binding of your conscience.
Yes, yes.
Yes.
You, you, if, if you do not do that,then your conscience is free mm-hmm.

(52:01):
To be bound by whatever else.
Yes.
That isn't in the text.
Right.
And so what what happens is, isyou got people who are making
implications that the text doesn'thave anything to do with Yeah.
'cause they're not digging,they're not dealing with the text.
They're dealing with broad points.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, and then, and then theymake all of these applications.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and, and then the sheep, theyfall for it because it sounds so good.

(52:27):
Yes.
Yeah.
And there's just enoughtheology there that's good.
You know, there, there's, there's enough.
Uh, you know, and, and peoplesay, oh, I love my pastor.
'cause he, he, he, heknow, he teaches the Bible.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but they don't know any better.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and the interesting thing about ittoo is, you know, there is, how do I say?

(52:51):
Another way to then make it seductive.
Right.
There's a book I'mholding right now, right.
It's a very small book.
It's small.
That's seductive right there.
I can read it in an hour or two.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
It's, uh, the Gospel for Life series, theGospel and Racial Reconciliation edited
by Russell Moore and Andrew Walker.
Hmm.
Now, what's interesting inparticular, when you talk about
Mr. Moore, uh, I don't know ifhe's a doctor, forgive me if he is.

(53:14):
Um, this was published back in 2016,so this was before Russell Moore really
showed his hands the way he does now.
Yeah.
And as an, as the, uh, se senioreditor of Christianity Today.
And so at the time, right.
Russell Moore, at least the way that Iremember Russel Moore before COVID, was
that Russell Moore was somebody who hadthought very deeply about ethical issues.

(53:38):
Yeah.
And he was, you know, offeringprescriptions in particular in
the Southern Baptist Convention,uh, about ways we can think about
the things that we see in society.
Uh, but then all that started to shift.
But by that time, you'vealready consumed the book.
You've already, you'realready in his camp.
And so then if you follow him, then.

(54:01):
By 2026, you're completelyoff the rails, right?
Writing articles about Islam.
I mean, none of these things make anysense, you know, now, but at the time that
these books are being published, right?
Uh, you don't know that.
And if, uh, if you're justlooking for answers to questions,

(54:21):
why are people so angry?
What is the contention?
Why are you yelling at me about this?
You know, you just want to understand.
Then you do the same thing thatI did, which is that you look for
some kind of human explanation.
Yeah.
And this is, and my main contention,I've said my main contention a couple
of times, the biggest issue that Ihave, and the only reason why, if I'm

(54:42):
asked about it, I'll say something.
And every time the text gives me anopportunity, I'll at least mention
it is because it degrades Christ.
Yeah.
Right.
When I was first asked aboutthis, I believe it was 20.
18 when there started tobe these tremors going on.
And I remember my discipler at the time.
For those who don't know, the discipleris the one who specifically is
shepherding your heart directly at Grace.

(55:04):
Wonderful.
Pastor.
He's in Texas now.
Miss him desperately.
Uh, he asked me, you know,what do you say about all this?
What do you think about what's going on?
Uh, I think this was before MacArthurdid that sermon on, on Ezekiel.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and I, I remember, I, Iknew very little at the time.
I felt completely inadequateto give an answer.

(55:24):
These names, uh, of people who are uh,talking about things in public are big
names with big money behind them andbig institutions and big influence.
And the only thing I could saywas it just doesn't seem like
Christ is enough for them.
Is Christ enough for them?
Yeah.
To deal with the enmity that youhave, like it talks about in Ephesians

(55:46):
that you have with another person.
Is Christ enough for you?
To be able to go to churchwith a person that you hate.
You know, I'm reminded of, uh, oh man.
What is her name?
Dutch Woman.
Corey Timboon.
Right.
That, that, that epic storywhere she's giving a lecture
and then a man walks up to her.

(56:08):
Oh, yeah.
Ssi.
And I'm thinking, yeah.
And I love the fact that she's, when I,when I heard her talking about it, well,
I didn't hear her personally, but youknow, the recording, she talks about how,
you know, and the colloquial, shewanted to punch him in the face.
Yeah.
She's thinking what now?
What?
This man got a lot.
She, I, the idea of forgiving himwas impossible in that moment.

(56:31):
He serious?
Yeah.
And you know, she attributes, if Iremember correctly, she attributes it
to the, to the ministry of the HolySpirit, that she would shake his hand
and essentially welcome him to thefaith because he had professed faith.
This is what we're talking about.
I mean, this man, she saw.
Yeah,
the wretched things that these peopledid, uh, and she was still confronted

(56:56):
with forgiving, like, you know, isChrist enough for you to do that?
And a lot of what I noticed in thereadings is really there's just an issue.
You have not forgiven either thingsthat are done to you or to other people.
And so because of your lack offorgiveness, you are raging against
them and you are trying to get somekind of justice from them, uh, that
you think God is not meeting outbecause you're not willing to wait.

(57:19):
Right.
Because God is not providing, he's right.
God isn't just enough.
Right.
Right.
And you're not, you know, thisis, you know, avenge his mind says
the Lord, I will repay like that.
What, what God is saying is that he isperfectly just, and all wicked doers will.
Uh, face their judge one day.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and this is what we trust in, right.
This is our confidence, our hope, andour prayer is that all wicked doers

(57:44):
will repent while there's still time.
Yeah.
So that, that, that justice will havebeen meted out on their behalf in Christ.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and they canfind true forgiveness.
Yeah.
It is not our job to tryto bring social justice.
Right.
Jesus is going to bring justice.
Mm-hmm.
And I see what you'resaying, like, is he enough?

(58:04):
Yeah.
Is he sovereign enough?
Mm-hmm.
And is he just enough?
And they would say in thereligion of blackness and
those who, who still do both.
I mean, there's even an epic q and aabout this where a guy who I, I, I don't
agree with his church politic in someways, but he called it out and people
were, so, he called it out very hardthat there are still people who are
worshiping blackness at the same timethat they're trying to worship Christ.

(58:26):
Yeah.
And so, but you don't know thatuntil a flashpoint happens.
And then they show their cards.
Right.
And what ends up happening is that insteadof you actually achieving the goal that
you want to achieve, which accordingto this is racial reconciliation,
what ends up happening is that youactually become, uh, you actually,

(58:49):
how do I say, you build an idol right?
To your race.
Pride.
Yeah.
Right.
One of the, uh, one of the, theauthors in here, I don't wanna
keep saying their names, but oneof the art, one of the authors.
I went, I, I recognized hername and I was trying to figure
out who is, who is this woman.
And so I went to her websiteand I noticed two things.

(59:10):
Number one, she'swritten children's books.
Yeah.
Very prominent children's books forthose in the evangelical circles,
especially if you go to conferences,you have seen these books sitting
on the tables at these conferences.
Number two, I remember going throughthose books myself 'cause I wanted
to get as many, you know, chiselbooks about God and Jesus as I can.
Uh, and I remember I just flippedthrough it and thought, Ooh, this is

(59:32):
a way too, uh, enamored with race.
I don't fully understand what thepoint is, uh, being so enamored.
And I know her main argument she'strying to make is that, you know,
God's people come in many shades.
I don't think you need a 50page book to explain that.
Uh, but then also when you lookat the other books that she has

(59:54):
written, uh, there, there not all ofthem, but there is a heavy emphasis.
Black, black this, black that blackthis black this, you know, being
in the black family, being in thisand, and that somehow Christianity
highlights the fact that you are black.
I would argue the, the opposite actually.
It it is the opposite.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It actually, yeah.

(01:00:14):
Low.
I dunno if the right wordis low lights, but it Right.
It, it highlights Christ.
Right.
It does
not highlight we're one in Christ.
Yeah.
Our identity is Christ.
Yeah.
We're unified to Christ.
This is, this is the,this is a gospel issue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you're going to, if youridentity, I see what you're saying.
Yes, yes.
Is in your race.
Yes.
Then it's not in Christ.
You can't have both.

(01:00:35):
You can't have both.
No, no, no.
And, and I do think that peoplehave to be moved off of that.
I, I, uh,
yeah.
I do think that people have tobe moved off, moved off of that.
I, you know, I think Colossians isclear, you know, when you're talking
to people, you gotta be compassionate.
Yeah.
And I'm not talkingabout quote unquote, um.

(01:00:57):
Listening to them vetch about what'sgoing, I'm sorry that's a Yiddish word.
Listening to them complain aboutwhat's going on in the world.
Uh, but I do, I I, I wanna be clear,and I think most people do that, and
I bet people here at Faith do that.
When you see these situations in the news,'cause we all do, or whatever feed we're
receiving it from, we have to criticallyanalyze what's happening there according

(01:01:21):
to the standards that God has stated.
Yeah.
I still remember one incident,and forgive me if I'm bringing
up too many illustrations, but Iremember one incident, something
happened in a Wendy's parking lot.
There was a tussle between, Ithink it was two police officers
and a man, and they tased the man.
Uh, and they were trying to sue, uh,because I can't remember if he died

(01:01:42):
or not, but they were trying to suebecause they thought that they used
excessive force, uh, where they wereplaying the video all over the news.
Uh, the man was at the, the, wasthat the speaker, uh, intoxicated.
He didn't respond.
Uh, I mean, you're blocking business,all kind of reasons why the cops came.
Mm-hmm.
But they came, uh, they triedto get him out of the car.

(01:02:05):
Uh, it did not go successfully.
Uh, when he did finally get outof the car, they're on video,
you see it, they're tussling.
Uh, the man gets awayfrom them and runs away.
He turns back, his hand is extendedtowards them, and you see some kind
of light coming out of his hand.
So they shot him.
Yeah.

(01:02:25):
And I remember my fathersaid, you see that?
You see that they shouldn't have shot him.
And my thinking is Romans 13, what exactlydo you expect if, if, if I got a gun?
You turn around and you shootsomething to me, I'm shooting back.
And this is just as a civilian, right?
Not even somebody who's actuallyequipped with the sword, you
know, like they are by, by God.
But what happens is that you seethis and what happened at the

(01:02:49):
time, many well-meaning Christians,whether they're influenced by
people like Russell Moore or not.
They see that and they feelsorry for the man who was shot.
No.
Scripture says if you, if you do evil orif you rebel against the state, and I'm
not talking about civil magistrate issues.
I'm talking about this man was drunk.

(01:03:11):
That is against the law in that state.
You're blocking the business.
They asked you to get outta the car.
You did not comply.
Then when you do get outtathe car, you grab one of their
weapons and use it against them.
Yeah.
What you received is what is due to you.
Yeah.
What, what?
To those who call evil good and good evil.
Yeah.
And so what we have to do is wehave to, even in the face of being

(01:03:34):
unliked, uh, they don't use the wordcanceled anymore, but even in the
face of being confrontational, ouranalysis needs to be scriptural.
And what that means thoughis that you are going to.
It's a good opportunity, numberone, you know, to train yourself to
think biblically about all of thesesituations going on in society.

(01:03:56):
Number two, it actually forces peoplethat are coming out of crazy situations
like I came out of, to have to queryyou about, well, why do you think that?
And it's a great opportunity then toexplain to them what scripture says this,
so therefore we have to analyze that way.
No, I do not.
God does not take, you know,pleasure in the death of the wicked.
So it's not like he's up there laughing.

(01:04:16):
Right.
You know, at the man that he got shot.
But you have to understand, right.
As, as the phrase goes, if youdo not comply, you may die.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, this is whatyou have to deal with.
Right.
This is, this is, you know, justice.
Yeah.
And so those who
serve at the altar of the idol ofblackness, they see that as, I mean,

(01:04:36):
this has been stated over and overagain in other places that are, you
know, much smarter people than I am.
But that that is, that is.
Inequitable aggressiontowards a black body.
Right.
But that's being filtered through Right.
The category of blackness.
Yes.
Which is redefining justice.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And so the, the really, and we, we'vetalked about this, I think at length,

(01:05:00):
like you become your own sort, itbecomes its own sort of justice Yes.
And own own system of justice.
Yes.
Instead of looking to the scripture,and I, and I do wanna come
like, make this emphatic here.
I was thinking of first Timothyone, 'cause I'm about to finish
preaching through First Timothy.
But first Timothy one, uh, is it, there'sthis warning against false teachers

(01:05:21):
in, uh, in verse 39, I urged you when Iwas gonna Macedonia remain in Ephesus.
That idea of urging is, is, uh,four different times stated.
In the book here.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, which is, that's a strong command.
Like, don't you dareleave your post Timothy.
Why?
Well, because you, you may chargethere's the same, uh, word, actually.

(01:05:42):
Uh, I charge you, I urge you thatyou may command or charge certain
persons not to teach any heterodox.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, different doctrine nor to devotethemselves to myth in endless genealogies.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, um, ethnicidentities there, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, which promote speculationsrather than the stewardship.
And then it's very specific from God.

(01:06:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That is by faith.
So by faith you believe that whatGod has, has, has passed down to us
is his will and his word, you know?
Yes.
Romans 12, one that you may know intothat you may know the perfect, uh, will
of God and, and the name of our chargecharges love the issues from a pure heart

(01:06:25):
and a good conscience and sincere faith.
There's a product.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then you see thatthere, there are grifters.
Yes.
Verse six.
Yes.
Certain persons by swerving from thesehave wandered away from, into vain
discussions, desiring to be teachersof the law without understanding
either what they're saying or thethings about which they make confident
assertions and what they produce.

(01:06:47):
He says later on is shipwrecked faith.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, the, they, it leads to chaos andhe'll come back to this theme mm-hmm.
Uh, at the end of the book as well.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and, and in the middle.
Because what he's telling Timothyis that you need to make sure you
teach the true the word of God.
The scripture, the, the doctrinesthat have been handed down, it's Paul

(01:07:10):
commanding Timothy Paul in the beginningsays, I'm an apostle of Christ Jesus
by the command of God, our savior.
There's that word command again, or theidea there, like this is not optional.
Right.
It's very specific.
It's very textual.
Uh, it's very granular.
Mm-hmm.
And if you don't know these truths, youare going to allow certain people to teach

(01:07:33):
things that are gonna draw people away.
Right.
Or you're gonna be drawn away.
Right.
And that's what we're talking about here.
We have a whole bunch of people
mm-hmm.
Who are in positions of pastoral influence
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Who, uh, are making confidentassertions about things.
They don't know whatthey're talking about.
Yeah.
They don't
understand
because they have, they, they.
They have been, they bought in.

(01:07:56):
Mm-hmm.
Because it felt compassion to them.
I, I'm sure sincerely, many of them.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but, but just like this, theseare men who are sincere, uh, who are
wanting to be teachers thinking they'vediscovered things that you need to know.
Yeah.
But they don't have a cluewhat they're talking about.
No.
And it leads to destruction.

(01:08:16):
And we're seeing this on a,uh, a colossal scale mm-hmm.
In the church.
And, and what it, you know, thisis the pastors, these are because
the Timothys have left their post.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but it's also becauseof the people, everyone's
responsible, like you should know.
Yeah.
God's word.
Mm-hmm.
Because if you don't,you're gonna be drawn in.

(01:08:37):
And this is what you, your, yourtestimony is you're getting into the
word of God and you're going, wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like the Bible is verydifferent than what.
Yeah, I grew up learning.
And then as scripture explains toyou how you should be thinking, you
have to be willing to submit to it.
Yeah.
I mean, not, not hold onto it.
Uh, and you know, this is where

(01:09:01):
I don't think I'm overstepping here.
You know, I have to admit the,the more or, uh, decentralized,
biblical teaching is becoming.
And what I mean by that is the moreaccess we have to biblical teaching on
all of the portals that we have accessto, whether it's on the phone, on the
tv, on the computer, and all these, themore I am actually growing, um, convicted

(01:09:26):
about sitting under the teaching.
That's at my church.
At my local church.
Uh, because when I'm readingbooks from other people.
Please do not misunderstand me.
If you go on my study, there are hundredsof books I I'm reading through a number
of books, so I'm, I am, uh, you will nothear this, this man say, do not read what

(01:09:48):
I'm, what I'm saying though, when youprivilege the preaching at your local
church, assuming you're under, uh, apastor who is faithfully teaching the
word, uh, God is handing you on a silverplatter, the food he wants you to consume.
Yeah.
And so when you do extracurricularreading, nothing wrong with that,
but you have to understand thatyou're awaiting into waters that.

(01:10:11):
Uh, that requires, uh, a heavy doseof faith in God that he would give you
wisdom and discernment to understandRight from wrong and what you're reading.
Yeah.
Because what is being published isbeing published with all due respect to
publishing houses because of what sells.
Yeah, that's right.
And so it's hard to
find.
Yeah.
Good, good.

(01:10:31):
Solid orthodox, yeah.
Biblical books.
Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, please, youknow, be be encouraged to, you know,
ask your pastor for reading listsor, uh, you know, another, uh, yeah.
I mean, seek counsel on Yeah.
You know what you, here, I'm reading this.
What do you think about, talkabout what you're reading, uh,
in order to avoid, like youmentioned, having shipwreck faith.

(01:10:54):
Uh, I mean, it's interesting.
I mean, verse six, I, I'd,I, I got stuck on verse six.
Uh, I'm reading for the NSBE first.
Some men string from these things haveturned aside to fruit list discussion.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, you mentioned before we startedtalking here about, you know, your, uh,

(01:11:15):
your diagramming of Acts one mm-hmm.
And how that incident wherethey're looking up at the sky Yeah.
And the angels come.
It's a good, it's a good reminder to stayon task, you know, and not be distracted.
Yeah.
What do you guys, what are you gawing at?
Yeah.
Jesus is gonna come back,get, get to work, man.
What?
He told you to go to Jerusalem.
Yes.
Get
going guys.
Yeah.
And so is, and so what I, what I'mfinding, you know, in my own heart and

(01:11:38):
in my own mind, and what I encourage themen that, that I'm leading, you know,
in my family to do, is you, you know,don't be unaware of what's going on.
You know?
It, it's hard.
It's hard to be unaware nowadays.
Uh, what I'm saying though isthat to stay on task, you know.
When you meet these people who aredealing with all these issues, preach

(01:12:00):
the gospel to them, and this is a goodopportunity to remind them of the saving
faith of Christ Jesus and how he issufficient to deal with all these issues.
Totally sufficient
for life and godliness.
Yeah.
And so we have to keep, we haveto keep lifting up his beauty in
order to deal with these issuesand not be torn us under ourselves
as we're trying to help, you know?
Uh, and so, you know, my ears alwaysprick up when I hear people talk

(01:12:23):
about, uh, we have to do more.
Not that I'm opposed to doing, I mean, Iwork in a public school, my goodness, you
know, uh, I'm not opposed to doing more.
Uh, my question though is always, youknow, I, I appreciate churches who
preach the word, and if a, if a member'smind is pricked to do something, amen.

(01:12:49):
By all means do it.
But don't think that that's gonnabe a ministry of the church.
That's not, that's not necessarilywhat the church is tasked
is.
Yeah.
And, and we're, we're, we're nothere to solve the social woes.
Yeah.
We're not of society.
Even if we transform it by our owntransformation, that is a distraction's.
Yeah.
It's a distraction.
And so we, we need to,we need to focus on that.

(01:13:10):
And then we need to understand, youknow, let's say you do witness or
see things that are done that areobviously, uh, what we would now
call racist or something like that.
Uh, you know, you have to remember,you know what Psalm 11 says, uh, that
was one of the psalms that we werestudying in Louisiana when I was there.

(01:13:33):
Uh, in Psalm 11, David, uh, is facing amassive problem, whatever the problem is.
And at the beginning of the psalm,whoever his counselor is, is telling him
that he should flee to the mountains.
Right?
The Bible says in the Lord,I take refuge Psalm 11.
The Lord I take refuge.
How can you say to my soul,flee as a bird to your mountain.

(01:13:54):
And then he gives these reasons, right?
For behold the wicked bend the bow.
They make ready their arrowupon the string to shoot in the
darkness at the upright and heart.
And if the foundations aredestroyed, what can the righteous do?
Right?
Whatever the situation he is facing is badenough that the foundations are destroyed.
And so whoever the counselor is,is telling him the only thing you

(01:14:15):
need to do is run for the hills.
Man.
Don't even, don't do no, do not stand,do not face, uh, do not be courageous.
Do not be resolved totrust your God, right?
'cause that's what he is telling him.
Mm-hmm.
Um, no, you need to flee.
Right?
And then, you know, Davidturns and gives his own reasons
for why he needs to not turn.

(01:14:35):
He needs to be faithful.
He needs to trust the Lord.
The Lord is in this holy temple, right?
He is sovereign.
He is sitting on high.
He is watching all this.
The Lord is throne is in heaven.
He's still on the throne.
I mean, when people ask me howmy day went, it went great.
God is still on the throne.
He ain't got off yet.
So, amen.
You know, his eyes, behold hiseyelids test the sons of man.

(01:14:56):
He is watching, he is taking noteof everything that is happening.
Every single indiscretion, everysingle, uh, you know, immoral
act one person to another.
He's taking note of all this.
The Lord tests therighteous and the wicked.
Hmm.
Right.
And why does he test Deuteronomyeight, two so that you will
know what's in your heart.

(01:15:17):
Yeah.
Not so that he will know, uh, and theone who loves violence, his soul hates.
He has a, he has a, a very, I'm sorry,it's, you can't even put us a ative on it.
His disposition is completelyopposed to those who do violence,
completely opposed upon the wicked.
He will reign snares, fire andbrimstone and burning wind will
be the portion of their cup.

(01:15:39):
If you have people out here doingevil things, it is not your job.
To hate them for it.
Right.
It is your job to remember thatthey do have a, like you said,
they have a destination andthat destination is terrifying.
Yeah.
And so your response needs to be oneof two things, and it could be both.
Pray for them.
Yeah.

(01:15:59):
And then if you know themor you have physical contact
with them, preach the gospel.
That's right.
So that they may hear thatthey can be saved even from the
wretched things that they're doing.
Yeah.
And for, you know, forthe love of all things.
Holy right.
Don't demand that you take out oftheir, you know, for like the way

(01:16:20):
my mother used to say, take out oftheir backside, you know, some kind of
justice because of what has occurred.
And, and, and, and, andI wanna be clear here.
I'm not talking about, I'm, I'm thinkingabout, uh, two incidents in particular.
Uh, and forgive me if I'm going too long.
There was an incident I I, that cameup in the book, I was reading about

(01:16:41):
a bombing in Philadelphia in 1985.
Hmm.
Uh, so, uh, to keep it very short, there,there was a, an organization called move.
Uh, and this organization hadsome, you know, very, uh, on the
orthodox ways of doing things.
And so the community was notappreciating them in their community.
Right.
They had kids running aroundnaked, they were communally living.

(01:17:04):
Uh, they were people of theearth, for lack of a better word.
Uh, all of their last name was Africa.
That should tell you something aboutthe composition of the skin tone.
The people that were there, uh, andthey were a militant organization.
And what I mean by a militantis based on their own words.
They were not a turn theother cheek kind of people.

(01:17:25):
Hmm.
So.
Uh, whatever the political, uh, pressurewas, the current mayor, uh, evicted
them and said that they need to, theyneed to move out of the neighborhood
or out of the town in Philadelphia.
They didn't do so.
Then the next mayor, the, uh, therewas already police activity to do
something and it, it didn't, uh,result in them, uh, leaving the city.

(01:17:50):
So then the next mayor, uh, again,the political climate is hot.
I mean, these, the, the neighborhoodsdo not want them around.
They're doing things that are,uh, that are contrary to, uh,
to the way we do civilization.
I'll just say it that way 'causeI don't know all the details.
I, I'm just going off of the documentaryI was watching when I saw it in the

(01:18:12):
book, I said, lemme find this out.
So whats up happening is according to thereports, uh, and this is from people who
said they are not turning the other cheek,they have photos of them with rifles.
They get into, uh, uh, aback and forth with the cops.
Uh, they do not relent andthen the cops bomb the house.
Hmm.

(01:18:35):
I'm watching thisdocumentary as a Christian.
It's on PBS, so it has a slant again, Ithink of the same thing if you shoot at
a cop, man, I mean, they have, for lackof a better word, unending ammunition.
Yeah.
They're going to keep going.
They have the backing of the citygovernment to ex to execute a conviction.

(01:18:56):
You have not complied to thesecond citywide conviction that was
given to you from the mayor, andnow you're pulling out your guns.
Yeah.
Now you shooting, I mean, whatexactly do you expect to happen?
Um,
why do I bring up that organization?
The people that I find that, and Imay have mentioned this before, that

(01:19:21):
worship at the altar of blackness.
They're simply trying to answerwhere is God in that situation?
Yep.
Like, how do we deal with this?
They're looking
for
justice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I hear you.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
When you say, I mean,that's a heinous situation.
Yeah.
Nobody, nobody wants anybody dead.
Right.

(01:19:41):
But we have to, as God's people,we have to be able to analyze that
according to scripture, and thenwe have to have answers for them.
Yeah.
And then we have to understandbased on their own words, as one
author says, if you quote Romans8 28, to me, it's not enough.

(01:20:01):
Yeah.
And so, yeah.
And that, and that's, that'swhat it comes down to.
We're, we're dealing with all, allof this is the problem of evil.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and the responseto the problem of evil.
And, and the only right response tothe problem of evil is to say that God
is sufficient for the problem of evil.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
And that he will deal with it.

(01:20:21):
And that may seem like a patanswer, but it is the answer.
It is the answer.
Answer.
And I don't care whatyou're going through.
Yeah.
What you've gone through.
In the end, you have to, if you,you're gonna come by faith Yeah.
To God.
You have to submit to hissovereign purposes in your life.
Yeah.
And you have to trust thathe will, uh, recompense Yeah.

(01:20:46):
All the deeds of men.
Yes.
Like you're saying in Psalm 11.
Yeah.
And then he sees it.
He
knows.
Yeah.
He knows.
And then the way it endsis, is telling Right.
Verse seven of Psalm 11, uh,for the Lord is righteous.
He loves righteousness, right?
Yeah.
And the Hebrew, it actuallysays righteousness is, is right.
So it's, it's, it is as if,because he is righteous.

(01:21:07):
He just likes, he, he justloves righteousness upon
righteousness, upon righteousness.
He just loves righteousness.
Uh, why is this important?
Right?
We are made writing Christ.
And the last thing that is says isthe upright will behold his face, even
if you are a witness to evil things,even if you're brought to Christ and
you are carrying around, uh, baggagefrom things that happened to you.

(01:21:31):
Because I wanna, I wanna assumethat what you're saying is true.
Yeah.
Uh, and that, that it's evil.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You have to, you have to restyourself in the hope, right?
That one day you will behold his faceand again, invite them to the same hope.
Uh, and I'm, I'm gonna tell you thatis number one, that is not popular.
I know,
uh, that does not sell books, but it does.

(01:21:53):
Please the Lord.
And, and so.
I guess, you know, if I was to sum upeverything, you know, that I am, that
some people say that I'm arguing for here,it's really just moving, moving off of
determinative categories.

(01:22:16):
The world system Yeah.
And moving towardsbiblical categories that
Yeah.
Uh, in order to understand people.
I mean, really, it's ananthropological question, right?
Yeah.
How do we see each other?
It's so
interesting how basic.
Mm-hmm.
Because, because when we talk about,you know, blackness and the religion,
blackness, it just seems like thisbig thing when you, when you boil

(01:22:36):
it all down, it's the same thing.
Mm-hmm.
That every person, every culture Yes.
Every nation has been battling with.
Yep.
And that is whether manis sufficient mm-hmm.
Enough for these problems.
Right.
I was thinking about, you're talkingabout the determinative thing, you
know, uh, pal Tripp has his book,uh, shepherding a Child's Heart.
Oh.
And in that, it's a great book mm-hmm.

(01:22:57):
To, uh, like a primerfor, for raising kids.
And one of the things he, hesays in there is that there
are, we're all under influences.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and thereare shaping influences.
They shape who we are.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But they are not determinative.
Right.
God is determinative.
He's the only one who's determinative.
Mm-hmm.
And so you are not theproduct of your environment.
Right.
You may have been shapedby your environment Sure.

(01:23:18):
But God is sufficient for your shapingenvironmental influences in your
life, whatever you've gone through.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this is whereby faith, and asa parent, we, we need to recognize
is that we actually have an impacton the way we shape our children.
We need to, we need to controlthose shaping influences.
Yes.
It's important that we do that.
Yes,
yes.
But ultimately, God determines,and ultimately everybody will

(01:23:40):
stand accountable on theirown two feet before God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we have to recognize this,uh, that God is the one who
is sovereign, all of this.
And that is, man, that, again, that soundslike a pat answer, but what, what we're
saying here is instead of grabbing and,and determining your own destiny mm-hmm.

(01:24:01):
Mm-hmm.
And, and grabbing a holdof your own autonomy.
You've got to submit to the only onewho can actually determine who is
Yahweh, who is the one who spoke life.
Mm-hmm.
And by his name, he's revealedhimself as a life giver.
Right.
Yahweh.
Yeah.
Uh, the, the, the, uh, youknow, the asay god that he is.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, there there's no other.

(01:24:21):
Nope.
And that's what we're, that'swhat we're talking about here.
And it is just what we'redealing, what we're talking
about is the sufficiency of God.
Yeah, yeah.
For you.
Yeah.
And for me.
Mm-hmm.
And for all of mankind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For everybody.
For everybody.
And really, this is when, whenwe talk about the, the Christ,
you know, you, you've gottatrust that Christ is sufficient.
Sufficient.
That's what we're saying,because Jesus is God.

(01:24:42):
Mm-hmm.
And, and he has done everything we need.
Giving dying on the cross for oursins, uh, you know, the atonement,
living the perfect righteous life.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and then, and then, and then,uh, having in all points been
tempted as we are yet without sin.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, fully sufficient inorder to bring us to God.

(01:25:04):
So that we might, the righteous as Psalm11 ends, will, will stem in his presence.
We'll, we'll behold his face.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what we're saying.
The sufficiency of Christ,the gospel is what you need.
Mm-hmm.
And the word of God is, is is life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, Jesus revealshimself through the scripture.

(01:25:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And all we have to do is submit to it.
Yeah.
I mean, just let it do its work, you know,
let it do its work.
Let the spirit of God do his work.
Let the word of God do.
Its, do its work.
And that's it.
That's, that's the answer.
Simple.
It is very simple.
Very simple.

(01:25:46):
Yeah.
Sounds reductive, but it's not,it's just, it's just scripture's.
Just the word of God.
Yeah.
And, and, uh, you know, when we talkabout the, the third way, there's been
a, a, a transformation or transition.
You know, since Trump got elected and,and like that election itself sent a

(01:26:06):
strong message that we're tired of mm-hmm.
Of, you know, this, um, woke stuffand we're tired of the transgender
stuff and really, you know,there's a loud and clear message.
So there's been a backing away from that.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so, so we don't usethe word canceled anymore.
Mm-hmm.
And there's, there's differentterminology, geologies, that are no
longer used anymore, but that doesn'tmean that the agenda has changed.

(01:26:29):
Oh, no, no.
They're just waiting and, and Right.
It's, they're redefining language.
Mm-hmm.
There, there is, there is an agenda thatthose who are pushing this, uh, are, are,
are really seeking, uh, the, the end game.
Yeah.
And we need to be aware of this.
Uh, and, and this just should compelus, uh, to flee the middle ground.

(01:26:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Flee from Yeah.
Yeah.
Flee to flee to Christ.
Yeah.
Flee to the scripture.
Find a, a church.
Where they teach the text.
Yes.
The audacity.
Right.
Simply preach the word.
Yeah.
Preach the word.
Yeah.
If, if you walk away from a sermon notunderstanding that particular text mm-hmm.

(01:27:15):
He's not doing his job.
Mm-hmm.
You need to understand the text.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you, you need to be able to goto him, to your pastor, your teacher, and
uh, and ask him questions about the text.
And he should be able toanswer those questions.
Yeah.
And expand your understandingof what God's will is Yeah.
As revealed in, in the scripture.
Yeah.
Uh, and if that's not happening,it doesn't, he may open his

(01:27:38):
Bible, he may be turning to aparticular passage of scripture.
Uh, but there, there needs to be, thereneeds to be, um, a, a handling of the text
so that what, what the product is here.
Uh, the aim of our charge firstsympathy one, five is love.
Mm-hmm.
That issues from a pure heart.
And a good conscience.

(01:27:59):
Isn't that what you werecraving when we started this?
Yes.
In your testimony.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A good conscience, a sincerefaith, you know, genuine.
That that can only happenfrom the man of God.
Uh, which is a, a term that isused one time in, in one Timothy.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that the man of God teaching theword of God to the people of God.
Yeah.

(01:28:19):
Yeah.
And that's it.
That's all.
That's all.
All right.
Good.
Good stuff.
I think that's, uh, we, we'vegone on, uh, hour and a half now.
I'm, I'm, I'm probablynot gonna edit this down.
I, I think I've done like twodifferent podcasts in, in the, you
know, trying to break it down, but,uh, I think people prefer long form.

(01:28:41):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so I think I'm just gonna putthis out there, out there long form.
So if, if you're one of thosewho wish I'd cut in half.
Sorry.
I'm just gonna put it out there.
Uh, 'cause I, I think this isa great discussion and, uh,
Donald, thank you Appreci.
Having you here, uh, my brother, uh,my friend, uh, as usual, it is, is

(01:29:02):
good to have you.
Thank you for having me.
It's, it's a delight to be of serviceto, to you and to this church.
I love this church, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Me too.
Alright.
And if you are looking for a churchwhere the scripture is handled, uh, I,
I'm all biased, uh, I'll admit, but,uh, that's Faith Baptist Church here

(01:29:25):
in Visalia, and so, um, please come.
Uh, this is, this is a big deal to us.
We want to, we want to train upGod's people, uh, so that we can
present God's people before God.
Like Ephesians five describes the, thehusband and the bride, you know, in,
in the, in the work of Jesus that hepresents his bride, the church before

(01:29:46):
him, spotless and without fault.
That's the goal.
And, uh, so if you're looking fora, a clean conscience and answers.
For why you keep stumbling and fallinginto sin, uh, you know, it's the gospel.
Come see us.
Uh, and, uh, if you're in the areaanyway, come to Faith Baptist Church.

(01:30:09):
Um, anyway, uh, until next time.

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