January 7, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode, Pastor Eric Noorthoek sits down with special guest Donald Taylor for a thought-provoking and candid conversation about race, theology, and the Gospel. Donald shares his journey from being deeply entrenched in the ideology of blackness and wokeness to finding true liberation in Christ. Together, they discuss the indoctrination of "blackness" as a worldview, the rise of black liberation theology, and how these ideologies have infiltrated the church and society.
With honesty and biblical clarity, they explore questions like: What happens when race becomes a lens for interpreting the Gospel? How has the doctrine of blackness shaped cultural and theological discourse? And most importantly, how does the hope of the Gospel transform our understanding of identity, freedom, and salvation? This is the first part of a two-part series that challenges cultural assumptions and calls believers to stand firm on biblical truth.
If you’ve ever wrestled with these issues or wondered how to think biblically about race and identity, this episode is for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
I have three degrees in wokeness.
I went to Columbia University.
Every foolish idea.
That came through the States,came through Columbia University.
Prior to that, I went to communitycollege at Malcolm X Community College.
And that college was chosen intentionally.
Not just because itwas in my neighborhood.
Cause I could have went toHarry Truman Community College.
Would have had much more resources,but it wasn't black enough.
(00:22):
Out of a context where Islamis the primary chosen religion.
What I mean by chosen is thatthat's the one that real men join.
I was seeking to get a PhD so that Icould take down the kingdom of God.
I am not lying.
I hated God.
I did not want to be with Godbecause he ain't black and I am..
Uh, when I was at university, Iworked on the Malcolm X project.
I studied under Manning Marable.
(00:43):
I am in the lineage, right?
I am not some dude whogot mad about something.
Uh, I am well versed.
One of the first articles we readwas about the invisible knapsack.
Now, why is this a big deal?
When I hear Matt Chandler, uh, on theYouTubes, uh, preaching this sermon, he's
(01:03):
telling everybody that you need to takethings out of your invisible knapsack.
I'm sitting here thinking,are you out of your mind?
You don't understand thathe is deploying something.
It is actually warfare.
And that is the way thatwe are taught that it is.
It is actual warfare
he is warring againstteachings like in Ephesians.
That such distinctions don't matter.
(01:23):
He is warring against ideaslike you are a new creation.
So even if you were a Ku Klux Klanmember, you are a new creation.
All right,
(02:19):
welcome
to another podcast From faithbaptist church in visalia, california
And uh, this is the first podcast of2025 and the first podcast that i've done
in It's been a couple months Uh, maybemore I can't remember uh, but it's been
(02:46):
a very busy season and Uh, it is It isgood to be back, and it is good to be in
front of the mic here, and today I have aspecial guest, a good friend, uh, Donald,
uh, why am I forgetting your last name?
What is your last name?
Donald Taylor.
(03:07):
Taylor.
Thank you.
I know him well.
He's a good friend.
I promise.
Uh, we, we were in, well, brieflyin seminary together, uh, and then
you, you, uh, you dropped out.
Mm hmm.
Uh, and then during, uh, COVID.
We, we were, we were going to churchtogether in, in our underground church.
We started on the, onthe Thompson's property.
(03:29):
That was, it was a good, good times.
Good days.
It was, uh, Yeah, lots of good,good memories sitting back there.
I remember, uh, sitting theredoing our church service and there
were cars that would drive by andgoing, oh man, we're gonna, we're
gonna, we're gonna get turned in.
And then, and then having that weirdthought, like, am I even in America?
And then the thought, ohyeah, I'm in California.
So it's like, right, we're out in the.
(03:53):
In the country a little bit,you know, those are good days.
They were yeah Uh, , it was during thatperiod that we got to know each other and
became good friends and I taught you howto do things like change tires and things.
Yes.
And to stop working on cars.
And, and
right, right, yes, uh, you got thatout of your, out of your system
(04:13):
and, and I realized that no, thisisn't, this isn't your thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, well, good, good, good times.
It is good to have you here, Donald,and, uh, he's up visiting, and, and we
were having a conversation, uh, earliertoday, and, uh, I thought it'd be fun, I
was thinking about this yesterday, it'dbe fun to do a podcast with Donald, but
(04:34):
what should we What should we talk about?
And, uh, and so then Donald said,well, have you done anything on race?.
And then we started a conversationand I was like, kind of blown away
by some of your thoughts, Donald, andwhere this leads and it just kind of
or well, it just brought to the forefrontthe need to have this conversation.
(04:56):
This is a big deal.
. But, um, so Donald, you are currentlyin seminary at the master's seminary.
Yes, sir.
And, uh, You, you know, you'retelling me you have a couple years,
two to three years left, dependingon how big of a load you take.
Yes, sir.
And whether the Lord allowsyou to take a big load or not.
Yes, sir.
Currently he said no.
(05:18):
Currently he said no.
So, and you're enjoying your,your studies down there?
I am actually.
I, uh, now I like to say that it'sgood for me to be older in seminary.
Uh, I have a better understandingof what's going on there and now
I'm doing it for the glory of God.
My hiatus before was because the pastorI was under at that time told me to
leave seminary Uh because that spotneeded to be populated by somebody
(05:43):
Uh worthy of the spot and I was notdisplaying the character necessary for
that so very wise, uh And so, uh duringthe couple of years when I was out of
seminary pastor helped me to get my lifein order uh And, uh, then he asked me
out of nowhere if I wanted to go back,but this time go back on their dime.
(06:05):
So, now they're paying, uh, thevast majority of my expenses there.
And, uh, giving me opportunities to,to work out what I'm learning on the
ground there at Roosevelt and Lancaster.
Yeah,
yeah, you're, you're,uh, working as an intern.
You said one of the lower tiered interns.
Yes, I'm the lower intern.
Haven't risen up to the top yet.
(06:26):
That's nice.
That's common, I hear.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hasn't risen to the
top, yeah.
On the side, my side hustle is teachingfirst grade full time at a public school.
So that means all thatyou think that means.
And that's
down in L.
A.
County.
Yeah, down in L.
A.
County, so.
Yeah, it's the
hotbed
of Babylon.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, uh, Sweet job.
(06:48):
First graders are, are, uh, arevery sweet, even with their sin.
Uh, there's a sweetness that,that, that is in little kids.
Uh, but this year actually, interestinglyenough, uh, this year was the first
year that I met a group of children whodid not know anything about Christmas.
Huh.
Uh, usually there's one or two.
But this year, when I asked if they knewabout Jesus, nobody knew about Jesus.
(07:11):
So it took a week.
to discuss what I callthe secret of Christmas.
Yeah.
And they were surprised at the secret.
Interesting.
That it's a baby, you know.
So, so yeah, so it's, on one levelit's a great opportunity for the
gospel there, and on another levelit's, it uh, exposes the darkness.
Hmm.
Uh, that now I'm encounteringchildren who have no, you know,
(07:34):
Previous teaching that they can recall
and I know we've talked about the thedarkness that is there just the Really
in the form of lack of knowledge likethey in in the utilitarian Nature of
the things that they're being taughtNot not taught how to think but just you
know Just facts that kind of stuff whereThey're not being grounded in a good
(08:03):
epistemology, how to think and, uh, andhow destructive that has been interesting.
I know, I remember you saying that youwould tell your first graders about
these, uh, these boys that, uh, lived ina tree, you know, it was cause my boys
at the time were literally sleeping.
Every night in their hammocks in thetree out there and that's, you know,
(08:26):
while I was in seminary, that's,that's about all we could afford.
Yes, yes.
They love those stories.
So my kids now, yeah, well, youknow, we're in seminary, you know,
we were homeschooled and we livein a tree, we sleep in a tree.
We're, we're literally that.
But, uh, yeah, they were,they were mystified.
You know, they were amazed thatthey just seemed so foreign
in the way you described it.
(08:46):
Yeah,
especially during that time.
Because.
I started to realize coming outof the shutdowns in California,
which lasted upwards of a year anda half to two years, uh, that many
of those children were not allowedto go even to into their own yards.
Yeah.
So they were kept inside.
So some of them had never seen the sky.
(09:09):
from the other side of the window.
It sounds weird to those of uswho are used to a different life,
but that was the life they lived.
And so for a six year old,that's a third of their life.
That's their whole life.
And for,
for us who are older, you know, youand I are close to the same age.
I think, uh, it's like, it's like,it was only three years or two years.
It was really only one year,really when it was really intense.
(09:30):
And even then where we were at,I was like, this is ridiculous.
We're not doing that.
I mean, at first when I thoughteveryone was going to die.
You know, the way they were talking.
But then after that, I'm like, thisis, I started looking up the stats.
This is ridiculous.
We're not doing this.
And, uh, and so, life went on as normal.
Really not a lot in our familythat changed, because our kids
(09:51):
were home and we had that littleacreage there that they played on.
And they went about doing what theynormally do, which is capturing
rattlesnakes and scorpions and,you know, doing boy things, so.
Anyway, uh, this is, this is good,uh, to have this conversation.
Why don't, why don't you tell us alittle bit about your, your upbringing?
(10:12):
Donald, I think it'd be help,helpful as we have this discussion,
uh, because you, you come from acompletely different worldview in, in
culture and upbringing than I have.
And when we've had theseconversations, it just blows my mind.
Some of the, the indoctrination thatyou grew up with and, and I know in
every, every area, every culture there,there's indoctrination I've experienced.
(10:34):
I've had to do lots of destruction,deconstruction in my own life.
Mm hmm.
Which I know that's a catchphraseof the day, but there is an element
of necessary deconstruction whenyou have been under the influence
of false teaching of some sort.
Uh, but it is just interesting to hearyou talk about the deconstructionism,
deconstruction that you've gone through.
(10:55):
Uh, how it's very differentthan what I've experienced.
And so why don't you tell us a littlebit about your upbringing and, um,
let's get this conversation going.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Born in Chicago, Illinois, uh, West sideof Chicago, which Uh, those of you who may
not know those, uh, boundaries, uh, whenyou hear bad things about Chicago, it's
usually the west side or the south side.
(11:16):
So I was on the west side of Chicago.
Uh, my mother also was born there.
Uh, her people were from Arkansas.
That's where they were slaves and didsharecropping, was down in that area.
And then grandma moved,moved up to Chicago.
And then that's how we got there.
I also spent a part of my time in Indiana,uh, and then went back to Chicago.
(11:41):
Uh, during that time, born in the 70s,78, lived through the 80s and 90s.
And so the, I like to say I grew upin an extremely raced environment,
meaning a very sweet mother,non christian, uh, at the time.
Uh, But, you know, the thing thatshe wanted me to do was to survive
(12:04):
without being killed for being black.
And so whether that was by the copsor whether that was by some racist so
called white person or whether thatwas from a gangster, uh, we had to do
everything we could to avoid that fate.
And so the primary way to avoidthat fate is through book learning
(12:24):
was the way that it was discussed.
And one of the main things we learned inour book learning Uh, after you learn how
to read, you start reading, if I speaktheologically, the doctrine of race.
I mean, you start readingautobiography of Malcolm X.
You start reading writings by Martin King.
You start reading, uh, novelsthat preach the same thing.
(12:46):
You know, uh, Toni Morrison, uh, AlexHaley, uh, you start reading these, these
texts that helps you understand whatdoes it mean to be black in America.
Big names that you're bringing up and, andabout the only one that I recognize was
when you said Martin King and even the wayyou said that it's Martin Luther King Jr.
(13:07):
That's, you know, cause wehave to make distinctions
between him and Martin Luther.
Uh, but a lot of those other authors thatyou mentioned that I don't, I don't know.
It's just very different.
Yeah.
In, in what you are.
Reading as you're like, well, thisis what you're supposed to read
(13:27):
compared to what I was supposed to readgrowing up, which is very different.
Yeah.
I mean, there, there is a, youknow, in the Christian circles,
you talk about the divines, right?
Those people you have to read to knowwhat, what it means to be Christian.
Uh, then there's, you know, thingslike classical education, there
are certain books you have to read.
Uh, to call yourself classical,uh, to call yourself black, there
(13:50):
are certain books you have to read.
And in particular, for instance,Autobiography of Malcolm X is
a book that is about as closeto the Bible as you can get.
I mean, you have to readAutobiography of Malcolm X, right?
Uh, if you haven't read thatbook, then you ain't black.
Uh, there are other, Toni Morrison,her novels, uh, very short, but very
potent, uh, helping you understand whatshe argues for is the, um, philosophical
(14:16):
issues, the psychological issues thatpeople endure, the soul issues that people
have to deal with, with living underblackness, if you will, people like W.
B.
Du Bois.
He does a, uh, um, a good job of layingout what are the social, cultural, uh,
(14:37):
as in, Describing what it's like to livein cities being black, uh, people we
did not read where people like Booker T.
Washington, uh, because Booker T.
Washington told you to stop, you know,stop, uh, giving excuses, get a job.
And those are the guys I was,
I was required to read Booker T.
Washington was like a hero to me,like reading about how he, you
(14:58):
know, like that's so fascinating.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, so, so there's definitelya panoply of books that you have to read,
uh, and it informs everything you do.
Uh, if I think about,uh, yeah, Toni Morrison.
Yes.
Uh, because she, for instance, you thinkabout, Oh, what is the name of that book?
Um, Moby Dick, right?
(15:21):
You hear somebody like R.
C.
Sproul talk about Moby Dick, right?
He argues that Moby Dick is an argumentabout Melville's, uh, personal arguments
with God and having to deal with God.
R.
C.
Sproul gets that.
from letters that he wrote by lettersthat were written by Melville where he
(15:41):
articulates that this is what it is.
The whale is God, right?
Right.
Uh, Tony Morrison argues thatthe well is actually whiteness.
Wow.
That, uh, that he is dealing with.
Uh, so, you know, the questionis, where does she get that?
That criticizes are from, it'snot from the writings of Melville.
She's reading that into the text.
And so these texts that we grow upreading, those of us who are literate.
(16:06):
A literati, if you will, as in wellread black folks, quote unquote.
They teach you how to readall these other books.
So then you read all these books first.
Then you go back to the otherbooks like a Moby Dick or Okay,
Robinson Cruso and all that.
And then you read into those books, theraced ideas, raced, R-A-C-E-D, uh, ideas
(16:28):
into those books to say what you thinkthat the so-called white folks are saying.
So it's not actually what the whitefolks, there's no authorial intent,
right?
So is this coming from theschools that you're in?
Is it it's just the cultural pushthat you, these are tho those books
are what you have to read to beblack, I mean, or are are, are, are
(16:50):
is your mom's handing these books,your dad handing, like how, how did.
Like when you say you had to readthese, like, where is it coming from?
Good question.
Yeah.
Uh, they're typicallynot found in schools.
If, if you go to good schools, quoteunquote, I mean, the schools that
actually teach you how to read andfigure and do things well, uh, they're
typically not reading those books,uh, at the time I was growing up.
Uh, and so those books will come upeither in conversations in the community
(17:16):
or
when you get to university.
Uh, my mother though, uh, was very.
adamant about literacy in our home.
And so some of those bookswe were introduced to early,
Oh, I'm, I'm reminded, right?
If you're thinking about culturalmarkers, uh, some of the cultural
markers were movies, right?
Cause you know, I grew up in a cinema age.
(17:37):
So for instance, when the autobiography,when Malcolm X came out as a movie,
Denzel Washington played the lead role.
I remember being takento see that by my mother.
To understand what it meantto be black in America, right?
So there, uh, that, uh, boys in thehood was another movie that came out.
Menace to society wasanother movie that came out.
(17:59):
You have to go see certain movies.
You are taken by yourparents to see these movies.
You are having critical conversationsthereafter, deconstructing
the movie to fully understandwhat's the argument being made.
Directors like Spike Lee wasmassive when it comes to.
exploring these ideas, expressingthese ideas, but more importantly
(18:20):
defining the ideas so that we allhave one idea of what this means.
I mean, it is doctrine.
It's not philosophical ideas.
We're batting around.
It's, it's true doctrine.
And if you, if you do not understandthe full definitions, you are either
taken through the texts or you areheavily corrected so that you state
(18:40):
exactly what the, uh, what the.
communal definition is ofthese terms and of these ideas.
So this, and what you're describingas you described your upbringing is
just what you just said, that you arebeing indoctrinated into blackness.
Yes.
Uh, what would you say if you wereto boil down that, the major tenants
(19:06):
of that doctrine, what would it be?
How would you describe it?
Sure.
Uh, so one major tenantis that you are oppressed.
Uh, even if you cannot definethe oppressor, you are oppressed.
Uh, and that that oppression iscomprehensive, uh, and it is universal.
(19:27):
So for instance, it does not matter ifyou are, uh, a premier athlete, uh, making
millions of dollars, tens of millions ofdollars per year, you are still oppressed.
Uh, even though you can purchase allthe privilege you want in the world,
uh, even if you have gone to, and yes,I am describing people, uh, contemporary
(19:54):
and history and, uh, historical.
Even if you are the first black quoteunquote person, the first Negro to
graduate from Harvard University witha PhD, uh, you are still oppressed.
But it's, it's, it's ill defined.
It's because it is tied to, it is tied to.
(20:15):
an idea, if you will, aphilosophical idea, a category.
It's not tied to, uh, it's nottied to anything that's sensory.
It's not reality.
Yeah.
It's not philosophical.
Yeah.
And so that's definitely one ofthe parameters in that you are
oppressed in the American context.
And in many cases in the Africancontext, only from what I've been
told about the continent of Africa,because I haven't been there.
(20:36):
Uh, and when I say Africa,I'm particularly referring
to sub Saharan Africa.
So not Northern Africa, uh, thatborders the Mediterranean sea,
uh, that Oppressor is a European.
And so that does not have to be aperson that's actually from Europe.
It's just anybody who has any connectionto Europe, whether it's via language, uh,
(20:56):
via nationality or via perceived heritage.
And I say perceived heritagebecause you don't actually
know where people come from.
Uh, most of the time, peoplethat are born nowadays.
Uh, and by the way, that does not include.
Greenland, Iceland.
It's very particular to, youknow, the British Isles, France,
Germany, that, that triangle, itdoesn't even really include Spain.
(21:19):
That's a whole different conversation, butthat kind of triangular French, German,
English, uh, doesn't even include Russia.
All right.
Um, it only includes those terms.
I mean, those, those, uh, people's,if you will, and people from that,
from those categories, and thisis why, uh, I personally have a
big issue with it because we live,those of us that are Anglophone,
(21:42):
those of us who are speak Englishlive in a glorious time in history.
What is that glorious time in history?
We are producing moretheological materials.
And ever in history in the Englishlanguage, we have more access
to God's word through Englishtranslation than anybody has ever had.
(22:03):
But in the minds of people whoare oppressed, quote unquote, in
their own minds, the very presenceof English is an oppression.
And so it prevents,it's a stumbling block.
That's a better way to say it.
I'm studying Matthew right now.
It's a stumbling block to believers that.
All of these texts are in English.
(22:26):
So in many cases, they won't read them.
They won't do it.
Even though some of the bestmaterials written on God's word
is in the English language.
They are waiting for people thatquote unquote look like them.
They are waiting for peoplewho speak different languages.
They are waiting for that to happen.
And God in his providentialorder of history has not
willed for that to happen yet.
(22:46):
English is the predominantlanguage of theology right now.
And if you ask people from overseas,they'll say the same thing.
And so many times people choose tobe ignorant simply because they think
it's the language of the white man.
Okay, so you said it's astumbling block for believers.
You're talking about Christians, right?
You're talking about black Christians,It's a stumbling block because
(23:09):
it's European, English, whatever.
Therefore they choose ignorancerather than this is, this is, you're
describing a universal conditionwithin the black community.
It's much better to be ignorantthan to do, to study theology using
(23:31):
the language of the oppressive.
Yes.
White people.
Yes.
Yeah.
Because many people still seeChristianity as a, as a, as a white
man's religion, which there are,there are some, well, there are
some very articulate people online.
And if I may use such a strongterm, any idiot can figure out.
(23:52):
That this did not come from anyof those countries from which
people say white people came from.
None of this in scripture came fromany of those countries, uh, but it is
still considered a white man's religion.
And so for instance, in the context thatI grew up in, uh, you choose to be Muslim.
You do not choose to be Christianbecause Christian men are either
white or effeminate and you don'twant to be either one of those.
(24:14):
So you choose to be Muslim.
Uh, not true Muslim though, only AmericanMuslim was another conversation, right?
But that, uh, but yeah, you, you chooseotherwise, uh, another major issue
that you run into, which is the majortenant of the kingdom of blackness,
if you will, is, uh, you look fortemporal relief from your trials.
(24:36):
And so a common theme in so called blackpreaching is that God will relieve you
of your temporal trials, but not becauseyou, uh, die and go to heaven, right?
Or not because you die andexist with God forever.
(24:57):
It is because God is going to, uh,give you a way to pay your bills.
God's going to give youa way to feed yourself.
But it's not because in the Psalms,it says that God gives food to
all flesh and he loves his people.
So he will make sure that youhave something to eat, right?
It is because.
Uh, it is because we are oppressed,God identifies with those who are
(25:18):
oppressed and because he identifieswith those who are oppressed uniquely.
Then he will ensure that you get paid.
He will ensure that you get that car.
He will ensure, and it'snot prosperity gospel.
That's the thing that makes it confusing.
It's not full on prosperity, butit's just his side, but it, but it
prevents people from being trulyliberated and that, that, yeah, it
(25:40):
gets on my nerves, but yeah, I want
to, I want to get into, into that a littlebit because you're describing an entire.
So what you've described so faris this indoctrination, which
has shaped your entire worldview,
you are oppressed.
What's the hope for salvation?
What is like, how doesthe gospel play into this?
(26:02):
Yeah.
So, uh, there's definitely a bitof a spectrum there, but, uh, I, I
prefer to start with their own words.
And when I say their own words,I mean, the, the people who are
honest, they remove the masks andthey say exactly what they want.
Yeah.
And so.
The gospel, uh, the gospelis not the gospel unless it
(26:25):
liberates you politically.
And when they use the term politically,they do actually mean in policy.
They do actually mean, uh, the,that you gain, uh, physical temporal
benefits from the government.
(26:48):
Uh, and that if your gospel doesnot include that it is not the
gospel, it is not liberating.
And they will actually say you are,there's one person who actually said
Cone, James Cone, he actually tells youif you're not preaching the political
liberation of the black folks and otheroppressed people around the world, you
are preaching the doctrine of demons.
(27:09):
I was highly surprised when I read thatand I thought, surely I read that wrong.
So I read it again.
Uh, and that's not a precise quote.
It's a paraphrase.
Uh, but yeah, James Cone, he, he,he is one who takes a mask off.
He is not, he does not holdor did not hold any punches.
Um, he has stood before God andI'm sure God has recompensed
(27:30):
him for his false teaching.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
He, he, when did he die?
Very recently, in
the 2000s from myunderstanding from cancer.
Uh, but that's what they're looking for.
And so, and I've even listenedto sermons as recent as November
where they're preparing forthe new year, which is normal.
A good shepherd helps their peoplethink through these natural times of
(27:52):
reflection and for good, for betteror for worse, the end of the calendar
year is a good time for reflection.
Uh, but the way that he was helping themthink through it was to think all the
ways that God will bless you next year.
Uh, and his blessings were temporal.
It was not spiritual growth.
It was not, uh, growth intothe likeness of Christ.
(28:15):
It was highly tied to temporal things,and I don't have a problem with
you teaching children how to read.
Right.
I do think that it's, and this couldbe a different podcast, I do think that
it is spiritual warfare that particulargroups of people are, are illiterate,
that you cannot read the Bible.
Words and God is verbal.
I do think that there's some issue there.
And I do think it's pointed and veryparticular, and I do think it's demonic.
(28:38):
Uh, so I don't have an issue with that.
Uh, but let's keep it real.
You can be, you can be savedwithout knowing how to read and
you can, you can hear what we'rebeing preached, but they say that
it's all about getting your goods.
Now, it is not about treasures in heaven.
Yeah.
Uh, and the, the, uh, The primary issueI have is how the shepherds, if you hold
(29:05):
to this hermeneutic, the shepherds haveto change the main idea of the text.
So for instance, when Jesus, uh,forgive me for going on and on,
but when, yeah, I'm, I'm startingto get, I can't always edit.
Oh, when Jesus, when, um, When Jesus callsPeter, oh yes, to put his nets down on the
(29:26):
other side, in Luke, I think it's in Luke.
And so.
Right.
You know, Peter's response, andthis is not the first time that
I've heard a sermon like this.
So he preaches this sermon on Luke.
And how Jesus tells him, you know, toput your, your nets on the other side.
And then, you know, as we, as we know fromthe text, right, uh, providentially all
of those fish get into that, you know, asI think about this, you know, one of the
(29:49):
children's story, wiggly fish, you know,jiggly fish, big fish, little fish, right.
Full of fish.
Right.
Uh, and in the text, it says thatPeter's response was, I am a sinful man.
Get away from me.
What the preacher said was themain idea is God is calling you
out into the deep end of the poolso you can trust him for 2025.
(30:10):
Which is completely, you know, youand I both, you know, in Master
Sermon we're taught that you gotto get the point of the text.
You have to get the
point of the text.
And if in the future I, I have notdone hermeneutical work on that text in
particular, but I suspect that what Petersaid is probably closer to the point,
the, the, the big idea of that text.
Yeah.
That sinful man isdealing with a holy God.
(30:31):
Yeah.
Not now I can go out into thedeep end of the pool and trust
God to pay my bills next year.
But the reason why you're bringingup this point is because the
entire worldview and you're talkingabout, you know, talking about this
indoctrination, it is colored by.
Color.
Yes.
By, by blackness.
Yeah, that was planned words.
Yeah, I know.
(30:52):
Uh, that, that just, youknow, spur of the moment.
Yes.
Very good.
Uh, so that begin, that,that's the hermeneutic thing.
Yes.
And, and this is, this, this isreally the, the big issue is that
blackness is the, the religion.
Yes.
That, that, and, and we're notjust talking about, you know,
(31:15):
those, you know, unbelievers.
We're talking about even in thechurch, blackness is the lens.
Our brothers and our sisters, uh, a hugenumber uh, that that's how they view their
(31:35):
faith is through the lens of blackness.
It is.
Yes.
Yes.
Um, that, that is so fascinating it is amassive indoctrination and blackness is
like, it, it trumps everything, everythingwhen you start to really look at it.
Um, so how, how do you get there?
(31:57):
I mean, how do we get to the, to,I mean, this indoctrination of.
blackness, like where, where wouldyou theologically, if you're going
to go to the scripture, where wouldyou find that, those categories?
How, how do, how do, howdo preachers get there?
Yeah, I, so that is definitely somethingI'm still looking into right now.
(32:21):
I will say that what I have found is thatthey have latched onto political ideas.
And then they have used text misusedtexts to support their argument.
So for instance, uh, it's hard tofind a lot of writings, theological
(32:45):
writings that highlight blacknessuntil, uh, the categories were heavily
entrenched in the United States.
Right?
And so that's a fairly recent idea.
Recent as in the lastcouple hundred years.
The category of blackness.
Yes, the So this indoctrinationis fairly recent.
Oh, very recent.
(33:06):
Very recent.
Uh, and so then what ends up happening,what ends up happening is that, uh,
if I, if I pinpoint to the 60s, 1960sin particular, uh, you have, In the
so called black community, you havea number of camps going around.
One camp would be, uh, and, you know,these terms are particularly generalized,
(33:32):
so I don't expect them to be precise.
I just want to give some, some,some general understanding.
Yeah.
Uh, you have the camps of, forinstance, Martin Luther King Jr.
Yeah.
Right, who At least according to hisspeeches, and I want to give that
presupposition clearly, accordingto his speeches, he wants all people
to be, uh, to be critiqued basedon their merit, and not based on
(33:58):
the color, the shade, the color.
Right, that's what hisspeeches have, that's what I've
always, his speeches were great,.
Because we could, we couldagree across all lines.
Yeah, that, that sounds great.
That's a great future vision for America.
Yeah.
So his speeches said that, and then youhave people like Stokely Carmichael,
(34:18):
Stokely Carmichael, I mean, there wereothers as well, but Stokely Carmichael in
particular was not pleased with the paceat which quote unquote, the old heads.
Uh, we're moving in, right?
One thing that Martin Luther King Jr.
(34:38):
At least the, the lineage thathe was in is that they understood
what we now call the long game.
So, for instance, Word on theStreet is, uh, and in a future
podcast I'll look up a citation.
Thanks for tuning in.
Uh, there was a conversation aboutthe March on Washington that there
(35:01):
needed to be some conversation about,uh, sodomites, about homosexuals.
Martin's, uh, response, accordingto word on the street is, not yet.
I'm for that.
But not yet.
Ah.
So he's playing the long game.
Right.
So
he's playing the
long game.
So he's saying one thing publicly becausehe knows it's going to be received well.
(35:22):
Yes.
But he's, he, but he's verymuch into his blackness.
Totally.
Because he knew that in the politicalmoment, uh, necessitated that.
Right.
To get that victory.
And then you move on to the, tothe sexually deviant categories.
So, so you're telling me,am I hearing you correctly?
You're telling me that from the beginning.
(35:43):
That there was a, this was movingtowards the acceptance of sodomy?
Yes.
That is Wow.
Yes.
Yes.
Uh, and as a quick aside before I goback to Stokely Carmichael, because
what, what one, what one understands,but it's hard to notice when you're
(36:05):
young and reading these texts becauseyou know how it is when you're young,
everything is only what's in front of you.
When you're older and looking back, youstart to realize things like, Oh, Dr.
Du Bois was writing aboutthe same thing in 1902.
Okay, so if he's writing about thisin 1902, he's talking about going
back to Africa in the early 1900s.
Then you have somebody likeMarcus Garvey talking about going
(36:27):
back to Africa in the 1950s.
You may say, well, what'sthe connection here?
It's because so called blackfolks are trying to figure out,
do we stay here or do we go there?
What do we do here?
Right.
Because they're
oppressed here.
Yes.
And so they're trying to figureout, they're trying to set up their
own country and the country thatwas set up on this side of the
planet by former slaves, Haiti.
(36:49):
Well, if you look, if you Google Haiti,we'll see how that has turned out.
It has not turned out well at all.
Uh, overseas Liberia was set upin, uh, in Africa to try to set
up their own, uh, country there.
It's not going well at all.
They tried to go back to Ghana.
It's not going well at all.
Uh, there hasn't been any experimentwhere they can do it on their own.
(37:10):
And so now they're like, okay,well, we have to do something here.
And so they're trying to make it work.
And the 1960s presented a goodopportunity to at least push for the
on paper, quote unquote, a furtherexplanation of what it, of freedom
when it comes to so called black folks.
(37:31):
Uh, Now, the issue with Stokely Carmichaelis he thought it was going too slow.
I mean, we've beenwaiting all these years.
I want black power now.
And so then what ends up happening isthat theologians and preachers, they
are on the side of Martin Luther KingJr because they want a slow paced, more
(37:52):
moderate, conservative looking approachto freedom, but they're agitated.
Especially the young people.
So they, especially they, they,they don't mind what Stokely
Carmichael is talking about.
They want power and they want it now.
So you,
when you, you say that everythinghas been viewed through blackness.
Yes.
And because you're black, you'reoppressed, that's part of this whole
(38:19):
religion, the system of thinking.
I think religion is a good term.
It is a religion, yes.
And
you need free, so liberate, sowe get liberation in that term,
liberation theology, you need freedom.
freedom from oppression, sofreedom then means power.
Yes.
Yes.
Political power.
So, and this is where you'resaying like the solutions, the,
(38:42):
the salvation is political.
So really it's a power.
It
is grab.
It's totally a power grab.
Yeah.
I mean, James Cone is a, is an authorthat's at least honest about it.
Right.
That, that, uh, That the goal heunderstand he understands that the
Bible is a problem because the Biblepreaches a liberation that does
(39:05):
not include political liberation.
Right.
Uh, and so the only way for him tosquare with the Bible is that he
has to meld into it black power.
which is a political philosophy.
And so he melds the black powerpart with the theological teachings.
(39:27):
And he takes also on the teachings outof South American Catholic churches,
the liberation theology, where they'reseeking to liberate all those people
who have no quote unquote politicalpower or financial power or social
power, uh, and to raise them up.
And then that's how you getblack liberation theology.
is he has to meld allthree of those together.
And he is constantly trying to dealwith this issue that the Bible being
(39:53):
understood as the word of God isa problem because as, as one, uh,
critic of his states, you cannot havesomething called black theology because
if the Bible is actually the wordof God, and this is not a believer
saying this, but even he understands.
(40:14):
If the Bible is the word ofGod, it is meant to be obeyed.
And so how James Cone and theadherents of black liberation theology
deal with that issue is that theydestabilize the doctrine of the Bible.
And what I mean by that is theteachings on what the Bible is, right?
(40:34):
Bibliology is the fancy word for it.
And so he states unequivocally thatthe Bible is not the word of God.
A more layman's way of saying itis that it is their word about God.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just,that's, that's liberalism.
They're borrowing from liberalismand you sort of put this in this,
this third category, you know, uh,
(40:58):
that's what makes it most, that's whatmakes it most interesting and troubling
for a person who is trying to find aconsistency in their argument, because
they are arguing that blackness.
is the thing.
I mean, it's even a, a hermeneutical tool.
Right.
Uh, and he, and he says that, um, but thenat the same time he is quoting from, uh,
(41:21):
he is quoting from German theologians.
Yeah, look at the footnotes.
Yeah.
Yeah, if you actually take the time ifyou're not like me I read through the
books and I don't read the footnotes,but this time I said, well, let me
look at who's important Wait a minute.
I know that guy.
Yeah, he's totally comingfrom like you said the liberal
school That's where all of
it for our listeners liberalismwas born and bred in Germany.
(41:41):
And then it just kind ofspread like gangrene across
the, in through the seminaries
know?
Uh, and the thing that I,that I've, the thing that,
that's so elusive andseductive about the teaching.
Is that, uh, with the exceptionof people like James Cone, it's
(42:02):
just, just far enough doctrinallycorrect that it sounds okay.
Yeah.
Uh, they, they won't say out loud.
Uh, the things that James Cone said.
Right.
It's, it's like Martin Luther, hisspeeches are one thing, but there's,
(42:24):
there's something undergirding him.
It's Martin Luther King.
Martin Luther King, right.
His blackness is his doctrine.
Yes.
And, and, and so you've got preachersthat are echoing that kind of,
you know, way of going about it.
Yes.
And the problem is, too, you haveto, I tell you this, this is what
makes it hard for the sheep, right?
(42:46):
You don't actually know ifthis teacher is savvy enough.
You don't actually know until theyget to the text that is going to
cause them to have to drop the mask.
So for instance, when Jesus goes intothe synagogue and he says that, you
know, I came to, you know, free theoppressed and, you know, preach to the
poor, their exegesis of that text isgoing to tell you, but how long do you
(43:09):
have to wait to hear that text, right?
Who's ever going to actuallypreach through Exodus.
So I can actually hear whatyou're trying to tell me is
that is the application of that.
You may not hear it if they're goodexegesis until they get to a text.
So it takes you a long time to hear.
their true colors, ifthey stick to the text.
Um, and they, and they are veryadamant about the good ones.
(43:30):
Good as in well skilled.
Until they get to those textsand then everything shifts.
So this,
this is why it is relevant because.
You know, we've all, we've, we've,we've lived through, you know, the whole
George Floyd thing and all the riotsand most people with, with common sense
can look at that and go, that's just,I mean, that's craziness or whatever.
(43:51):
And it's easy in, in,at least in this church.
I mean, I, I, you know, we, we don'thave a lot of dark skinned people in
this church occasionally that theycome in, but it's predominantly,
you know, white culture or whatever.
And so, because we don't have thatcategory, we haven't been indoctrinated
(44:11):
that way, we kind of, kind of go, youknow, that's just, that's just far left.
But what you're telling me is thatit's not, like, this has actually
been, it has infiltrated churches,and now you have preachers who are
taught how to exegete properly.
using verse by verse,you know, like, oh, yes.
(44:33):
Going, going through, you know, inthe tradition of Martin Lloyd Jones.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and, and, and, and any goodPuritan mm-hmm . They can go through
this text mm-hmm . But because they'restill clinging to their blackness,
they're, they're able to, or theywill, they will twist at, at, at those
verses like the passage you brought up.
Yes.
And it becomes veryconfusing for the sheep.
(44:54):
So it allows, it allowsthis doctrine to persist.
And it's undergirded by wellpolished, well, uh, capable preachers.
Yes,
yes.
And, and then it's, it's beingpropped up and supported by, you
know, like the Southern Baptists.
I know it's been a big deal in the SBCand then Southern, and we were talking
(45:17):
with some of the other seminaries.
Yes.
Where they've, they've, they've,uh, adopted these, these, uh, these
tenants where you're allowed to useblackness as a hermeneutical tool.
Is it, was it title?
No, I'm thinking it was in, in, in SBC.
They voted on this reasona couple of years ago.
I remember what it was called.
It's on the tip of my tongue,but where they said, yeah, it
(45:38):
was an okay hermeneutical toolto use, uh, intersectionality.
Yeah.
For analysis, for, for analysis.
And this is where itbecomes really important.
And this is, Um, I mean, there's somany places I feel like I can go right
now, but what I want to, to really drivehome to, you know, the listeners here
(45:59):
is that it is relevant to all of us.
Yes.
And let me tell you why, if I may.
Go.
So there's a couple of reasons.
Number one, uh, some of we weretalking about earlier, right?
If you hold to these tenants.
And you are not willing to let theword of God transform your thinking,
Romans 12, in these matters.
Uh, or you even assume that youdon't even have to think about these
(46:20):
matters, which is a bold faced lie.
That's a form of agnosticism, and this is
what I think the other side is guilty of.
Yes.
And that's, that's exactly,we are practicing agnosticism.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, continue.
Is that the issue you run into.
Is that similar to you won't knowif you're, you will not know if
(46:41):
the preacher you're sitting underholds to these tenets until they get
to a sticky text, to a hard text.
You won't know if you do eitheruntil you get to a hard situation.
And then, and then what you haveto be willing to do, number one,
what you have to be willing todo is just be willing to hear.
My mind may need to bechanged on this subject.
(47:02):
And if we keep it frank, our mindneeds to be changed on all subjects.
Just count it as another mark against you.
Right.
Number two, though.
It will prevent you from deploying theauthority of God on all situations.
in the life of somebody that is eitherdarker or lighter skin than you, because
you would think that that's somethingyou can't speak to because you don't
(47:25):
know what they're going through.
Yeah.
Which again is a bold faced lie.
Right.
Because the Bible says that everything westruggle with is, is common to the flesh.
Right.
And that we sharpen each other usingthe word of God, which is universal.
So it does not actually matter.
Um, and I'm not talking about strategiesfor showing empathy or compassion.
That's not what I'm talking about.
When I'm talking about though, isthat at the end of the day, we are
(47:45):
all called to a holy standard andnumber one, there is no distinction.
So I'm not allowed to thinkof you any differently.
Uh, I'm not allowed tothink differently about you.
That degrades you as a person,irregardless of how I think about it.
And then, uh, Yeah,that's the first thing.
And then secondly, Oh, if you thinkthat you haven't been impacted by
(48:07):
it, again, you're lying to yourself.
Yeah.
Here's a good example of it.
Matt Chandler, I'm sorry, or whatever.
Matt Chandler.
Yeah.
Don't apologize.
Now.
I don't know where he is nowadays.
I know he's dealt with a numberof trials when it came to like
brain surgery or something.
So I don't know where he is currently.
Yeah, but that's
been like, that's been a while backwhen he had that, but ever since
(48:27):
his brain surgery, all that stuff.
All of this woke stuff that he's adopted.
Was that after
that?
It was after that.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Okay, okay.
That's actually helpful.
You know, a few years after that.
So, when I, when I, when Ifirst started getting word.
So, I, I, okay.
A little bit more about myself.
I have three degrees in wokeness.
I went to Columbia University.
(48:48):
Google it.
Every foolish idea.
That came through the States,came through Columbia University.
Please do not get it twisted.
Uh, I, I, I, I, I grew upthere, uh, intellectually.
I was, I, um, I went there,graduated from there.
Prior to that, I went to communitycollege at Malcolm X Community College.
I want you to hear all the tropes.
And that college was chosen intentionally.
(49:10):
Not just because itwas in my neighborhood.
Cause I could have went toHarry Truman Community College.
Would have had much more resources,but it wasn't black enough.
So I went to Malcolm X Community College,transferred to Columbia University.
After that, I went to Eastern Illinoisuniversity to study, uh, medieval history.
You may say, what does thathave to do with anything?
Oh, I'm sorry.
My degree was in AfricanAmerican studies, my BA.
(49:30):
Then my master's, uh, wasin, uh, medieval history.
And then you may say,what's the connection there?
Well, I wanted to do interreligiousinteractions in the, in the Mediterranean,
what does that have to do with anything,especially with black folks, quote,
unquote, African American studies, well.
out of a context where Islamis the primary chosen religion.
What I mean by chosen is thatthat's the one that real men join.
(49:52):
They joined, they joined Islam.
And so I was, I was heavily interestedin how the Muslim, um, religion and
empire swept through and destroyed thatMediterranean area and took it over.
That's all I wanted to say.
And how they are.
They are, uh, they are a betterreligion than Christianity and that
(50:13):
I was seeking to get a PhD so that Icould take down the kingdom of God.
I am not lying.
Right.
I hated God.
I did not want to be with Godbecause he ain't black and I am.
Right.
Uh, when I was at university, Iworked on the Malcolm X project.
There was a book that was published,uh, that I'm of course not named
because you're a student researcher.
You don't get named in thosebooks by Manning Marable.
(50:34):
Please look it up.
Right.
I studied under Manning Marable.
Please look them up.
Like I, I studied under, Iam in the lineage, right?
I am not some dude whogot mad about something.
Uh, I am well versed.
You were very religious.
Yeah.
Very religious.
Then I went to university.
After that, I got a second master'sdegree at the University of Chicago,
(50:55):
uh, in urban teacher education.
One of the first articles we readwas about the invisible knapsack.
Now, why is this a big deal?
Because I read through this.
When I hear Matt Chandler, uh, on theYouTubes, uh, preaching this sermon, he's
telling everybody that you need to takethings out of your invisible knapsack.
(51:16):
I'm sitting here thinking, surelynobody is listening to this.
I remember reading this article.
Are you out of your mind?
And what people don't understand,especially if you went to university,
if you didn't, in college accounts,if you did not go to university, you
may be blissfully ignorant about this.
And praise God that heprotects you from this.
But if you went to university, with theexception of a very small list, I mean, I
(51:40):
could probably name five schools that youprobably did not get, you indoctrinated
by this, uh, across the entire country.
I must have gone to one of them.
Amen.
So what happens is that thislanguage You don't understand
that he is deploying something.
Like, it, like, it is actually warfare.
And that is the way thatwe are taught that it is.
(52:00):
It is actual warfare.
It is not just some idea that you needto make sure that you are deconstructing
all of the ideas so that you can beopen to being made into Christ likeness.
That's not the argument when that,when that article is written, that
article was actually written in orderto teach the quote unquote non black
(52:21):
people in the room that you can't, youhave nothing to say to black people.
Unless you have gone through thisexcruciating process of unpacking
every single thought in your mind andreexamined it through this Marxist lens.
Uh, and so when I hear a preacher sayingthat I'm sitting here thinking to myself,
(52:42):
if you could see my face, I'm sittinghere thinking to myself, surely no
idiot will hear anything he has to say.
But then it occurred to me
that either people don't knowthat they've been taught that.
And that's why they think thatwhat he's saying, it's okay.
Or they don't fully understand theimplications of what he is saying.
He is warring againstteachings like in Ephesians.
(53:04):
That such distinctionsdon't matter anymore.
Yeah, and this is MattChandler you're talking about.
He is warring against ideaslike you are a new creation.
So even if you were a Ku Klux Klanmember, you are a new creation.
None of that matters anymore.
And so what ends up happening is thatthe tropes that are being used in these
sermons, you're not picking up on.
Either because by the time itfiltered down to you, it was
(53:25):
already put in these layman's termsthat makes it easier to digest.
Or you did not go to the placeswhere these ideas come from.
You're I went to two of the placeswhere these ideas come from.
I am fully engaged in the wokeness.
I am, I mean not engaged,educated in the wokeness.
I grew up in this, in my household,with a sweet mother that was doing
the best that she knew how to do.
(53:46):
Um, and so I don't, I don't holdher at fault for this, at all.
Uh, but I'm, I'm, I'm telling you, right.
You talking about watchman yesterdaywhen you talk about with Babylon,
I am the watchman trying totell you that that is a problem.
And so I appreciate people likeVoti Bakum, people like HB Charles,
that does it through sermons.
You know, they all have their ownways of dealing with the issue.
I appreciate when, you know,MacArthur priest, Ezekiel 18
(54:07):
and 19 calling it like it is.
Yeah, that was very
controversial.
A couple of years ago, three,four or five, something like that.
Yeah.
But we need, we need people thatwill actually tell you what he's
saying sounds benign, but it's not.
You have to know this, uh, but you alsohave to know that the brother or sister
sitting next to you that, uh, thatprovidentially they grew up in this.
(54:36):
There is a lot of destructionthat has occurred to their spirit
that has to be rebuilt in thehope that is, that is Christ.
And so if you're unwilling to, I'm notsaying you have to be an expert, but
if you are unwilling to learn what Godhas to say about anthropology, what
(54:57):
God has to say about man, uh, thenI do think you're doing your fellow
brother and sister a disservice,
(55:17):
Well, that was part one of a twopart podcast on, uh, race with,
uh, my good friend Donald Taylor.
And so I am looking forward to thesecond part of this, and I hope
that you will come back, uh, moreinteresting conversation to be had
over this very important topic.
And, uh.
I'd like to invite you, if you are inthe Visalia, California area, area to
(55:41):
come and join us for church on Sunday,1030, uh, or Sunday at 6 o'clock.
Um, and there's other things that we gotgoing on as well, so come check us out.
Uh, otherwise, uh, until next time.
I have three degrees in wokeness.
I went to Columbia University.
Every foolish idea.
That came through the States,came through Columbia University.
Prior to that, I went to communitycollege at Malcolm X Community College.
And that college was chosen intentionally.
Not just because itwas in my neighborhood.
Cause I could have went toHarry Truman Community College.
Would have had much more resources,but it wasn't black enough.
(00:22):
Out of a context where Islamis the primary chosen religion.
What I mean by chosen is thatthat's the one that real men join.
I was seeking to get a PhD so that Icould take down the kingdom of God.
I am not lying.
I hated God.
I did not want to be with Godbecause he ain't black and I am..
Uh, when I was at university, Iworked on the Malcolm X project.
I studied under Manning Marable.
(00:43):
I am in the lineage, right?
I am not some dude whogot mad about something.
Uh, I am well versed.
One of the first articles we readwas about the invisible knapsack.
Now, why is this a big deal?
When I hear Matt Chandler, uh, on theYouTubes, uh, preaching this sermon, he's
(01:03):
telling everybody that you need to takethings out of your invisible knapsack.
I'm sitting here thinking,are you out of your mind?
You don't understand thathe is deploying something.
It is actually warfare.
And that is the way thatwe are taught that it is.
It is actual warfare
he is warring againstteachings like in Ephesians.
That such distinctions don't matter.
(01:23):
He is warring against ideaslike you are a new creation.
So even if you were a Ku Klux Klanmember, you are a new creation.
All right,
(02:19):
welcome
to another podcast From faithbaptist church in visalia, california
And uh, this is the first podcast of2025 and the first podcast that i've done
in It's been a couple months Uh, maybemore I can't remember uh, but it's been
(02:46):
a very busy season and Uh, it is It isgood to be back, and it is good to be in
front of the mic here, and today I have aspecial guest, a good friend, uh, Donald,
uh, why am I forgetting your last name?
What is your last name?
Donald Taylor.
(03:07):
Taylor.
Thank you.
I know him well.
He's a good friend.
I promise.
Uh, we, we were in, well, brieflyin seminary together, uh, and then
you, you, uh, you dropped out.
Mm hmm.
Uh, and then during, uh, COVID.
We, we were, we were going to churchtogether in, in our underground church.
We started on the, onthe Thompson's property.
(03:29):
That was, it was a good, good times.
Good days.
It was, uh, Yeah, lots of good,good memories sitting back there.
I remember, uh, sitting theredoing our church service and there
were cars that would drive by andgoing, oh man, we're gonna, we're
gonna, we're gonna get turned in.
And then, and then having that weirdthought, like, am I even in America?
And then the thought, ohyeah, I'm in California.
So it's like, right, we're out in the.
(03:53):
In the country a little bit,you know, those are good days.
They were yeah Uh, , it was during thatperiod that we got to know each other and
became good friends and I taught you howto do things like change tires and things.
Yes.
And to stop working on cars.
And, and
right, right, yes, uh, you got thatout of your, out of your system
(04:13):
and, and I realized that no, thisisn't, this isn't your thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, well, good, good, good times.
It is good to have you here, Donald,and, uh, he's up visiting, and, and we
were having a conversation, uh, earliertoday, and, uh, I thought it'd be fun, I
was thinking about this yesterday, it'dbe fun to do a podcast with Donald, but
(04:34):
what should we What should we talk about?
And, uh, and so then Donald said,well, have you done anything on race?.
And then we started a conversationand I was like, kind of blown away
by some of your thoughts, Donald, andwhere this leads and it just kind of
or well, it just brought to the forefrontthe need to have this conversation.
(04:56):
This is a big deal.
. But, um, so Donald, you are currentlyin seminary at the master's seminary.
Yes, sir.
And, uh, You, you know, you'retelling me you have a couple years,
two to three years left, dependingon how big of a load you take.
Yes, sir.
And whether the Lord allowsyou to take a big load or not.
Yes, sir.
Currently he said no.
(05:18):
Currently he said no.
So, and you're enjoying your,your studies down there?
I am actually.
I, uh, now I like to say that it'sgood for me to be older in seminary.
Uh, I have a better understandingof what's going on there and now
I'm doing it for the glory of God.
My hiatus before was because the pastorI was under at that time told me to
leave seminary Uh because that spotneeded to be populated by somebody
(05:43):
Uh worthy of the spot and I was notdisplaying the character necessary for
that so very wise, uh And so, uh duringthe couple of years when I was out of
seminary pastor helped me to get my lifein order uh And, uh, then he asked me
out of nowhere if I wanted to go back,but this time go back on their dime.
(06:05):
So, now they're paying, uh, thevast majority of my expenses there.
And, uh, giving me opportunities to,to work out what I'm learning on the
ground there at Roosevelt and Lancaster.
Yeah,
yeah, you're, you're,uh, working as an intern.
You said one of the lower tiered interns.
Yes, I'm the lower intern.
Haven't risen up to the top yet.
(06:26):
That's nice.
That's common, I hear.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hasn't risen to the
top, yeah.
On the side, my side hustle is teachingfirst grade full time at a public school.
So that means all thatyou think that means.
And that's
down in L.
A.
County.
Yeah, down in L.
A.
County, so.
Yeah, it's the
hotbed
of Babylon.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, uh, Sweet job.
(06:48):
First graders are, are, uh, arevery sweet, even with their sin.
Uh, there's a sweetness that,that, that is in little kids.
Uh, but this year actually, interestinglyenough, uh, this year was the first
year that I met a group of children whodid not know anything about Christmas.
Huh.
Uh, usually there's one or two.
But this year, when I asked if they knewabout Jesus, nobody knew about Jesus.
(07:11):
So it took a week.
to discuss what I callthe secret of Christmas.
Yeah.
And they were surprised at the secret.
Interesting.
That it's a baby, you know.
So, so yeah, so it's, on one levelit's a great opportunity for the
gospel there, and on another levelit's, it uh, exposes the darkness.
Hmm.
Uh, that now I'm encounteringchildren who have no, you know,
(07:34):
Previous teaching that they can recall
and I know we've talked about the thedarkness that is there just the Really
in the form of lack of knowledge likethey in in the utilitarian Nature of
the things that they're being taughtNot not taught how to think but just you
know Just facts that kind of stuff whereThey're not being grounded in a good
(08:03):
epistemology, how to think and, uh, andhow destructive that has been interesting.
I know, I remember you saying that youwould tell your first graders about
these, uh, these boys that, uh, lived ina tree, you know, it was cause my boys
at the time were literally sleeping.
Every night in their hammocks in thetree out there and that's, you know,
(08:26):
while I was in seminary, that's,that's about all we could afford.
Yes, yes.
They love those stories.
So my kids now, yeah, well, youknow, we're in seminary, you know,
we were homeschooled and we livein a tree, we sleep in a tree.
We're, we're literally that.
But, uh, yeah, they were,they were mystified.
You know, they were amazed thatthey just seemed so foreign
in the way you described it.
(08:46):
Yeah,
especially during that time.
Because.
I started to realize coming outof the shutdowns in California,
which lasted upwards of a year anda half to two years, uh, that many
of those children were not allowedto go even to into their own yards.
Yeah.
So they were kept inside.
So some of them had never seen the sky.
(09:09):
from the other side of the window.
It sounds weird to those of uswho are used to a different life,
but that was the life they lived.
And so for a six year old,that's a third of their life.
That's their whole life.
And for,
for us who are older, you know, youand I are close to the same age.
I think, uh, it's like, it's like,it was only three years or two years.
It was really only one year,really when it was really intense.
(09:30):
And even then where we were at,I was like, this is ridiculous.
We're not doing that.
I mean, at first when I thoughteveryone was going to die.
You know, the way they were talking.
But then after that, I'm like, thisis, I started looking up the stats.
This is ridiculous.
We're not doing this.
And, uh, and so, life went on as normal.
Really not a lot in our familythat changed, because our kids
(09:51):
were home and we had that littleacreage there that they played on.
And they went about doing what theynormally do, which is capturing
rattlesnakes and scorpions and,you know, doing boy things, so.
Anyway, uh, this is, this is good,uh, to have this conversation.
Why don't, why don't you tell us alittle bit about your, your upbringing?
(10:12):
Donald, I think it'd be help,helpful as we have this discussion,
uh, because you, you come from acompletely different worldview in, in
culture and upbringing than I have.
And when we've had theseconversations, it just blows my mind.
Some of the, the indoctrination thatyou grew up with and, and I know in
every, every area, every culture there,there's indoctrination I've experienced.
(10:34):
I've had to do lots of destruction,deconstruction in my own life.
Mm hmm.
Which I know that's a catchphraseof the day, but there is an element
of necessary deconstruction whenyou have been under the influence
of false teaching of some sort.
Uh, but it is just interesting to hearyou talk about the deconstructionism,
deconstruction that you've gone through.
(10:55):
Uh, how it's very differentthan what I've experienced.
And so why don't you tell us a littlebit about your upbringing and, um,
let's get this conversation going.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Born in Chicago, Illinois, uh, West sideof Chicago, which Uh, those of you who may
not know those, uh, boundaries, uh, whenyou hear bad things about Chicago, it's
usually the west side or the south side.
(11:16):
So I was on the west side of Chicago.
Uh, my mother also was born there.
Uh, her people were from Arkansas.
That's where they were slaves and didsharecropping, was down in that area.
And then grandma moved,moved up to Chicago.
And then that's how we got there.
I also spent a part of my time in Indiana,uh, and then went back to Chicago.
(11:41):
Uh, during that time, born in the 70s,78, lived through the 80s and 90s.
And so the, I like to say I grew upin an extremely raced environment,
meaning a very sweet mother,non christian, uh, at the time.
Uh, But, you know, the thing thatshe wanted me to do was to survive
(12:04):
without being killed for being black.
And so whether that was by the copsor whether that was by some racist so
called white person or whether thatwas from a gangster, uh, we had to do
everything we could to avoid that fate.
And so the primary way to avoidthat fate is through book learning
(12:24):
was the way that it was discussed.
And one of the main things we learned inour book learning Uh, after you learn how
to read, you start reading, if I speaktheologically, the doctrine of race.
I mean, you start readingautobiography of Malcolm X.
You start reading writings by Martin King.
You start reading, uh, novelsthat preach the same thing.
(12:46):
You know, uh, Toni Morrison, uh, AlexHaley, uh, you start reading these, these
texts that helps you understand whatdoes it mean to be black in America.
Big names that you're bringing up and, andabout the only one that I recognize was
when you said Martin King and even the wayyou said that it's Martin Luther King Jr.
(13:07):
That's, you know, cause wehave to make distinctions
between him and Martin Luther.
Uh, but a lot of those other authors thatyou mentioned that I don't, I don't know.
It's just very different.
Yeah.
In, in what you are.
Reading as you're like, well, thisis what you're supposed to read
(13:27):
compared to what I was supposed to readgrowing up, which is very different.
Yeah.
I mean, there, there is a, youknow, in the Christian circles,
you talk about the divines, right?
Those people you have to read to knowwhat, what it means to be Christian.
Uh, then there's, you know, thingslike classical education, there
are certain books you have to read.
Uh, to call yourself classical,uh, to call yourself black, there
(13:50):
are certain books you have to read.
And in particular, for instance,Autobiography of Malcolm X is
a book that is about as closeto the Bible as you can get.
I mean, you have to readAutobiography of Malcolm X, right?
Uh, if you haven't read thatbook, then you ain't black.
Uh, there are other, Toni Morrison,her novels, uh, very short, but very
potent, uh, helping you understand whatshe argues for is the, um, philosophical
(14:16):
issues, the psychological issues thatpeople endure, the soul issues that people
have to deal with, with living underblackness, if you will, people like W.
B.
Du Bois.
He does a, uh, um, a good job of layingout what are the social, cultural, uh,
(14:37):
as in, Describing what it's like to livein cities being black, uh, people we
did not read where people like Booker T.
Washington, uh, because Booker T.
Washington told you to stop, you know,stop, uh, giving excuses, get a job.
And those are the guys I was,
I was required to read Booker T.
Washington was like a hero to me,like reading about how he, you
(14:58):
know, like that's so fascinating.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, so, so there's definitelya panoply of books that you have to read,
uh, and it informs everything you do.
Uh, if I think about,uh, yeah, Toni Morrison.
Yes.
Uh, because she, for instance, you thinkabout, Oh, what is the name of that book?
Um, Moby Dick, right?
(15:21):
You hear somebody like R.
C.
Sproul talk about Moby Dick, right?
He argues that Moby Dick is an argumentabout Melville's, uh, personal arguments
with God and having to deal with God.
R.
C.
Sproul gets that.
from letters that he wrote by lettersthat were written by Melville where he
(15:41):
articulates that this is what it is.
The whale is God, right?
Right.
Uh, Tony Morrison argues thatthe well is actually whiteness.
Wow.
That, uh, that he is dealing with.
Uh, so, you know, the questionis, where does she get that?
That criticizes are from, it'snot from the writings of Melville.
She's reading that into the text.
And so these texts that we grow upreading, those of us who are literate.
(16:06):
A literati, if you will, as in wellread black folks, quote unquote.
They teach you how to readall these other books.
So then you read all these books first.
Then you go back to the otherbooks like a Moby Dick or Okay,
Robinson Cruso and all that.
And then you read into those books, theraced ideas, raced, R-A-C-E-D, uh, ideas
(16:28):
into those books to say what you thinkthat the so-called white folks are saying.
So it's not actually what the whitefolks, there's no authorial intent,
right?
So is this coming from theschools that you're in?
Is it it's just the cultural pushthat you, these are tho those books
are what you have to read to beblack, I mean, or are are, are, are
(16:50):
is your mom's handing these books,your dad handing, like how, how did.
Like when you say you had to readthese, like, where is it coming from?
Good question.
Yeah.
Uh, they're typicallynot found in schools.
If, if you go to good schools, quoteunquote, I mean, the schools that
actually teach you how to read andfigure and do things well, uh, they're
typically not reading those books,uh, at the time I was growing up.
Uh, and so those books will come upeither in conversations in the community
(17:16):
or
when you get to university.
Uh, my mother though, uh, was very.
adamant about literacy in our home.
And so some of those bookswe were introduced to early,
Oh, I'm, I'm reminded, right?
If you're thinking about culturalmarkers, uh, some of the cultural
markers were movies, right?
Cause you know, I grew up in a cinema age.
(17:37):
So for instance, when the autobiography,when Malcolm X came out as a movie,
Denzel Washington played the lead role.
I remember being takento see that by my mother.
To understand what it meantto be black in America, right?
So there, uh, that, uh, boys in thehood was another movie that came out.
Menace to society wasanother movie that came out.
(17:59):
You have to go see certain movies.
You are taken by yourparents to see these movies.
You are having critical conversationsthereafter, deconstructing
the movie to fully understandwhat's the argument being made.
Directors like Spike Lee wasmassive when it comes to.
exploring these ideas, expressingthese ideas, but more importantly
(18:20):
defining the ideas so that we allhave one idea of what this means.
I mean, it is doctrine.
It's not philosophical ideas.
We're batting around.
It's, it's true doctrine.
And if you, if you do not understandthe full definitions, you are either
taken through the texts or you areheavily corrected so that you state
(18:40):
exactly what the, uh, what the.
communal definition is ofthese terms and of these ideas.
So this, and what you're describingas you described your upbringing is
just what you just said, that you arebeing indoctrinated into blackness.
Yes.
Uh, what would you say if you wereto boil down that, the major tenants
(19:06):
of that doctrine, what would it be?
How would you describe it?
Sure.
Uh, so one major tenantis that you are oppressed.
Uh, even if you cannot definethe oppressor, you are oppressed.
Uh, and that that oppression iscomprehensive, uh, and it is universal.
(19:27):
So for instance, it does not matter ifyou are, uh, a premier athlete, uh, making
millions of dollars, tens of millions ofdollars per year, you are still oppressed.
Uh, even though you can purchase allthe privilege you want in the world,
uh, even if you have gone to, and yes,I am describing people, uh, contemporary
(19:54):
and history and, uh, historical.
Even if you are the first black quoteunquote person, the first Negro to
graduate from Harvard University witha PhD, uh, you are still oppressed.
But it's, it's, it's ill defined.
It's because it is tied to, it is tied to.
(20:15):
an idea, if you will, aphilosophical idea, a category.
It's not tied to, uh, it's nottied to anything that's sensory.
It's not reality.
Yeah.
It's not philosophical.
Yeah.
And so that's definitely one ofthe parameters in that you are
oppressed in the American context.
And in many cases in the Africancontext, only from what I've been
told about the continent of Africa,because I haven't been there.
(20:36):
Uh, and when I say Africa,I'm particularly referring
to sub Saharan Africa.
So not Northern Africa, uh, thatborders the Mediterranean sea,
uh, that Oppressor is a European.
And so that does not have to be aperson that's actually from Europe.
It's just anybody who has any connectionto Europe, whether it's via language, uh,
(20:56):
via nationality or via perceived heritage.
And I say perceived heritagebecause you don't actually
know where people come from.
Uh, most of the time, peoplethat are born nowadays.
Uh, and by the way, that does not include.
Greenland, Iceland.
It's very particular to, youknow, the British Isles, France,
Germany, that, that triangle, itdoesn't even really include Spain.
(21:19):
That's a whole different conversation, butthat kind of triangular French, German,
English, uh, doesn't even include Russia.
All right.
Um, it only includes those terms.
I mean, those, those, uh, people's,if you will, and people from that,
from those categories, and thisis why, uh, I personally have a
big issue with it because we live,those of us that are Anglophone,
(21:42):
those of us who are speak Englishlive in a glorious time in history.
What is that glorious time in history?
We are producing moretheological materials.
And ever in history in the Englishlanguage, we have more access
to God's word through Englishtranslation than anybody has ever had.
(22:03):
But in the minds of people whoare oppressed, quote unquote, in
their own minds, the very presenceof English is an oppression.
And so it prevents,it's a stumbling block.
That's a better way to say it.
I'm studying Matthew right now.
It's a stumbling block to believers that.
All of these texts are in English.
(22:26):
So in many cases, they won't read them.
They won't do it.
Even though some of the bestmaterials written on God's word
is in the English language.
They are waiting for people thatquote unquote look like them.
They are waiting for peoplewho speak different languages.
They are waiting for that to happen.
And God in his providentialorder of history has not
willed for that to happen yet.
(22:46):
English is the predominantlanguage of theology right now.
And if you ask people from overseas,they'll say the same thing.
And so many times people choose tobe ignorant simply because they think
it's the language of the white man.
Okay, so you said it's astumbling block for believers.
You're talking about Christians, right?
You're talking about black Christians,It's a stumbling block because
(23:09):
it's European, English, whatever.
Therefore they choose ignorancerather than this is, this is, you're
describing a universal conditionwithin the black community.
It's much better to be ignorantthan to do, to study theology using
(23:31):
the language of the oppressive.
Yes.
White people.
Yes.
Yeah.
Because many people still seeChristianity as a, as a, as a white
man's religion, which there are,there are some, well, there are
some very articulate people online.
And if I may use such a strongterm, any idiot can figure out.
(23:52):
That this did not come from anyof those countries from which
people say white people came from.
None of this in scripture came fromany of those countries, uh, but it is
still considered a white man's religion.
And so for instance, in the context thatI grew up in, uh, you choose to be Muslim.
You do not choose to be Christianbecause Christian men are either
white or effeminate and you don'twant to be either one of those.
(24:14):
So you choose to be Muslim.
Uh, not true Muslim though, only AmericanMuslim was another conversation, right?
But that, uh, but yeah, you, you chooseotherwise, uh, another major issue
that you run into, which is the majortenant of the kingdom of blackness,
if you will, is, uh, you look fortemporal relief from your trials.
(24:36):
And so a common theme in so called blackpreaching is that God will relieve you
of your temporal trials, but not becauseyou, uh, die and go to heaven, right?
Or not because you die andexist with God forever.
(24:57):
It is because God is going to, uh,give you a way to pay your bills.
God's going to give youa way to feed yourself.
But it's not because in the Psalms,it says that God gives food to
all flesh and he loves his people.
So he will make sure that youhave something to eat, right?
It is because.
Uh, it is because we are oppressed,God identifies with those who are
(25:18):
oppressed and because he identifieswith those who are oppressed uniquely.
Then he will ensure that you get paid.
He will ensure that you get that car.
He will ensure, and it'snot prosperity gospel.
That's the thing that makes it confusing.
It's not full on prosperity, butit's just his side, but it, but it
prevents people from being trulyliberated and that, that, yeah, it
(25:40):
gets on my nerves, but yeah, I want
to, I want to get into, into that a littlebit because you're describing an entire.
So what you've described so faris this indoctrination, which
has shaped your entire worldview,
you are oppressed.
What's the hope for salvation?
What is like, how doesthe gospel play into this?
(26:02):
Yeah.
So, uh, there's definitely a bitof a spectrum there, but, uh, I, I
prefer to start with their own words.
And when I say their own words,I mean, the, the people who are
honest, they remove the masks andthey say exactly what they want.
Yeah.
And so.
The gospel, uh, the gospelis not the gospel unless it
(26:25):
liberates you politically.
And when they use the term politically,they do actually mean in policy.
They do actually mean, uh, the,that you gain, uh, physical temporal
benefits from the government.
(26:48):
Uh, and that if your gospel doesnot include that it is not the
gospel, it is not liberating.
And they will actually say you are,there's one person who actually said
Cone, James Cone, he actually tells youif you're not preaching the political
liberation of the black folks and otheroppressed people around the world, you
are preaching the doctrine of demons.
(27:09):
I was highly surprised when I read thatand I thought, surely I read that wrong.
So I read it again.
Uh, and that's not a precise quote.
It's a paraphrase.
Uh, but yeah, James Cone, he, he,he is one who takes a mask off.
He is not, he does not holdor did not hold any punches.
Um, he has stood before God andI'm sure God has recompensed
(27:30):
him for his false teaching.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
He, he, when did he die?
Very recently, in
the 2000s from myunderstanding from cancer.
Uh, but that's what they're looking for.
And so, and I've even listenedto sermons as recent as November
where they're preparing forthe new year, which is normal.
A good shepherd helps their peoplethink through these natural times of
(27:52):
reflection and for good, for betteror for worse, the end of the calendar
year is a good time for reflection.
Uh, but the way that he was helping themthink through it was to think all the
ways that God will bless you next year.
Uh, and his blessings were temporal.
It was not spiritual growth.
It was not, uh, growth intothe likeness of Christ.
(28:15):
It was highly tied to temporal things,and I don't have a problem with
you teaching children how to read.
Right.
I do think that it's, and this couldbe a different podcast, I do think that
it is spiritual warfare that particulargroups of people are, are illiterate,
that you cannot read the Bible.
Words and God is verbal.
I do think that there's some issue there.
And I do think it's pointed and veryparticular, and I do think it's demonic.
(28:38):
Uh, so I don't have an issue with that.
Uh, but let's keep it real.
You can be, you can be savedwithout knowing how to read and
you can, you can hear what we'rebeing preached, but they say that
it's all about getting your goods.
Now, it is not about treasures in heaven.
Yeah.
Uh, and the, the, uh, The primary issueI have is how the shepherds, if you hold
(29:05):
to this hermeneutic, the shepherds haveto change the main idea of the text.
So for instance, when Jesus, uh,forgive me for going on and on,
but when, yeah, I'm, I'm startingto get, I can't always edit.
Oh, when Jesus, when, um, When Jesus callsPeter, oh yes, to put his nets down on the
(29:26):
other side, in Luke, I think it's in Luke.
And so.
Right.
You know, Peter's response, andthis is not the first time that
I've heard a sermon like this.
So he preaches this sermon on Luke.
And how Jesus tells him, you know, toput your, your nets on the other side.
And then, you know, as we, as we know fromthe text, right, uh, providentially all
of those fish get into that, you know, asI think about this, you know, one of the
(29:49):
children's story, wiggly fish, you know,jiggly fish, big fish, little fish, right.
Full of fish.
Right.
Uh, and in the text, it says thatPeter's response was, I am a sinful man.
Get away from me.
What the preacher said was themain idea is God is calling you
out into the deep end of the poolso you can trust him for 2025.
(30:10):
Which is completely, you know, youand I both, you know, in Master
Sermon we're taught that you gotto get the point of the text.
You have to get the
point of the text.
And if in the future I, I have notdone hermeneutical work on that text in
particular, but I suspect that what Petersaid is probably closer to the point,
the, the, the big idea of that text.
Yeah.
That sinful man isdealing with a holy God.
(30:31):
Yeah.
Not now I can go out into thedeep end of the pool and trust
God to pay my bills next year.
But the reason why you're bringingup this point is because the
entire worldview and you're talkingabout, you know, talking about this
indoctrination, it is colored by.
Color.
Yes.
By, by blackness.
Yeah, that was planned words.
Yeah, I know.
(30:52):
Uh, that, that just, youknow, spur of the moment.
Yes.
Very good.
Uh, so that begin, that,that's the hermeneutic thing.
Yes.
And, and this is, this, this isreally the, the big issue is that
blackness is the, the religion.
Yes.
That, that, and, and we're notjust talking about, you know,
(31:15):
those, you know, unbelievers.
We're talking about even in thechurch, blackness is the lens.
Our brothers and our sisters, uh, a hugenumber uh, that that's how they view their
(31:35):
faith is through the lens of blackness.
It is.
Yes.
Yes.
Um, that, that is so fascinating it is amassive indoctrination and blackness is
like, it, it trumps everything, everythingwhen you start to really look at it.
Um, so how, how do you get there?
(31:57):
I mean, how do we get to the, to,I mean, this indoctrination of.
blackness, like where, where wouldyou theologically, if you're going
to go to the scripture, where wouldyou find that, those categories?
How, how do, how do, howdo preachers get there?
Yeah, I, so that is definitely somethingI'm still looking into right now.
(32:21):
I will say that what I have found is thatthey have latched onto political ideas.
And then they have used text misusedtexts to support their argument.
So for instance, uh, it's hard tofind a lot of writings, theological
(32:45):
writings that highlight blacknessuntil, uh, the categories were heavily
entrenched in the United States.
Right?
And so that's a fairly recent idea.
Recent as in the lastcouple hundred years.
The category of blackness.
Yes, the So this indoctrinationis fairly recent.
Oh, very recent.
(33:06):
Very recent.
Uh, and so then what ends up happening,what ends up happening is that, uh,
if I, if I pinpoint to the 60s, 1960sin particular, uh, you have, In the
so called black community, you havea number of camps going around.
One camp would be, uh, and, you know,these terms are particularly generalized,
(33:32):
so I don't expect them to be precise.
I just want to give some, some,some general understanding.
Yeah.
Uh, you have the camps of, forinstance, Martin Luther King Jr.
Yeah.
Right, who At least according to hisspeeches, and I want to give that
presupposition clearly, accordingto his speeches, he wants all people
to be, uh, to be critiqued basedon their merit, and not based on
(33:58):
the color, the shade, the color.
Right, that's what hisspeeches have, that's what I've
always, his speeches were great,.
Because we could, we couldagree across all lines.
Yeah, that, that sounds great.
That's a great future vision for America.
Yeah.
So his speeches said that, and then youhave people like Stokely Carmichael,
(34:18):
Stokely Carmichael, I mean, there wereothers as well, but Stokely Carmichael in
particular was not pleased with the paceat which quote unquote, the old heads.
Uh, we're moving in, right?
One thing that Martin Luther King Jr.
(34:38):
At least the, the lineage thathe was in is that they understood
what we now call the long game.
So, for instance, Word on theStreet is, uh, and in a future
podcast I'll look up a citation.
Thanks for tuning in.
Uh, there was a conversation aboutthe March on Washington that there
(35:01):
needed to be some conversation about,uh, sodomites, about homosexuals.
Martin's, uh, response, accordingto word on the street is, not yet.
I'm for that.
But not yet.
Ah.
So he's playing the long game.
Right.
So
he's playing the
long game.
So he's saying one thing publicly becausehe knows it's going to be received well.
(35:22):
Yes.
But he's, he, but he's verymuch into his blackness.
Totally.
Because he knew that in the politicalmoment, uh, necessitated that.
Right.
To get that victory.
And then you move on to the, tothe sexually deviant categories.
So, so you're telling me,am I hearing you correctly?
You're telling me that from the beginning.
(35:43):
That there was a, this was movingtowards the acceptance of sodomy?
Yes.
That is Wow.
Yes.
Yes.
Uh, and as a quick aside before I goback to Stokely Carmichael, because
what, what one, what one understands,but it's hard to notice when you're
(36:05):
young and reading these texts becauseyou know how it is when you're young,
everything is only what's in front of you.
When you're older and looking back, youstart to realize things like, Oh, Dr.
Du Bois was writing aboutthe same thing in 1902.
Okay, so if he's writing about thisin 1902, he's talking about going
back to Africa in the early 1900s.
Then you have somebody likeMarcus Garvey talking about going
(36:27):
back to Africa in the 1950s.
You may say, well, what'sthe connection here?
It's because so called blackfolks are trying to figure out,
do we stay here or do we go there?
What do we do here?
Right.
Because they're
oppressed here.
Yes.
And so they're trying to figureout, they're trying to set up their
own country and the country thatwas set up on this side of the
planet by former slaves, Haiti.
(36:49):
Well, if you look, if you Google Haiti,we'll see how that has turned out.
It has not turned out well at all.
Uh, overseas Liberia was set upin, uh, in Africa to try to set
up their own, uh, country there.
It's not going well at all.
They tried to go back to Ghana.
It's not going well at all.
Uh, there hasn't been any experimentwhere they can do it on their own.
(37:10):
And so now they're like, okay,well, we have to do something here.
And so they're trying to make it work.
And the 1960s presented a goodopportunity to at least push for the
on paper, quote unquote, a furtherexplanation of what it, of freedom
when it comes to so called black folks.
(37:31):
Uh, Now, the issue with Stokely Carmichaelis he thought it was going too slow.
I mean, we've beenwaiting all these years.
I want black power now.
And so then what ends up happening isthat theologians and preachers, they
are on the side of Martin Luther KingJr because they want a slow paced, more
(37:52):
moderate, conservative looking approachto freedom, but they're agitated.
Especially the young people.
So they, especially they, they,they don't mind what Stokely
Carmichael is talking about.
They want power and they want it now.
So you,
when you, you say that everythinghas been viewed through blackness.
Yes.
And because you're black, you'reoppressed, that's part of this whole
(38:19):
religion, the system of thinking.
I think religion is a good term.
It is a religion, yes.
And
you need free, so liberate, sowe get liberation in that term,
liberation theology, you need freedom.
freedom from oppression, sofreedom then means power.
Yes.
Yes.
Political power.
So, and this is where you'resaying like the solutions, the,
(38:42):
the salvation is political.
So really it's a power.
It
is grab.
It's totally a power grab.
Yeah.
I mean, James Cone is a, is an authorthat's at least honest about it.
Right.
That, that, uh, That the goal heunderstand he understands that the
Bible is a problem because the Biblepreaches a liberation that does
(39:05):
not include political liberation.
Right.
Uh, and so the only way for him tosquare with the Bible is that he
has to meld into it black power.
which is a political philosophy.
And so he melds the black powerpart with the theological teachings.
(39:27):
And he takes also on the teachings outof South American Catholic churches,
the liberation theology, where they'reseeking to liberate all those people
who have no quote unquote politicalpower or financial power or social
power, uh, and to raise them up.
And then that's how you getblack liberation theology.
is he has to meld allthree of those together.
And he is constantly trying to dealwith this issue that the Bible being
(39:53):
understood as the word of God isa problem because as, as one, uh,
critic of his states, you cannot havesomething called black theology because
if the Bible is actually the wordof God, and this is not a believer
saying this, but even he understands.
(40:14):
If the Bible is the word ofGod, it is meant to be obeyed.
And so how James Cone and theadherents of black liberation theology
deal with that issue is that theydestabilize the doctrine of the Bible.
And what I mean by that is theteachings on what the Bible is, right?
(40:34):
Bibliology is the fancy word for it.
And so he states unequivocally thatthe Bible is not the word of God.
A more layman's way of saying itis that it is their word about God.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just,that's, that's liberalism.
They're borrowing from liberalismand you sort of put this in this,
this third category, you know, uh,
(40:58):
that's what makes it most, that's whatmakes it most interesting and troubling
for a person who is trying to find aconsistency in their argument, because
they are arguing that blackness.
is the thing.
I mean, it's even a, a hermeneutical tool.
Right.
Uh, and he, and he says that, um, but thenat the same time he is quoting from, uh,
(41:21):
he is quoting from German theologians.
Yeah, look at the footnotes.
Yeah.
Yeah, if you actually take the time ifyou're not like me I read through the
books and I don't read the footnotes,but this time I said, well, let me
look at who's important Wait a minute.
I know that guy.
Yeah, he's totally comingfrom like you said the liberal
school That's where all of
it for our listeners liberalismwas born and bred in Germany.
(41:41):
And then it just kind ofspread like gangrene across
the, in through the seminaries
know?
Uh, and the thing that I,that I've, the thing that,
that's so elusive andseductive about the teaching.
Is that, uh, with the exceptionof people like James Cone, it's
(42:02):
just, just far enough doctrinallycorrect that it sounds okay.
Yeah.
Uh, they, they won't say out loud.
Uh, the things that James Cone said.
Right.
It's, it's like Martin Luther, hisspeeches are one thing, but there's,
(42:24):
there's something undergirding him.
It's Martin Luther King.
Martin Luther King, right.
His blackness is his doctrine.
Yes.
And, and, and so you've got preachersthat are echoing that kind of,
you know, way of going about it.
Yes.
And the problem is, too, you haveto, I tell you this, this is what
makes it hard for the sheep, right?
(42:46):
You don't actually know ifthis teacher is savvy enough.
You don't actually know until theyget to the text that is going to
cause them to have to drop the mask.
So for instance, when Jesus goes intothe synagogue and he says that, you
know, I came to, you know, free theoppressed and, you know, preach to the
poor, their exegesis of that text isgoing to tell you, but how long do you
(43:09):
have to wait to hear that text, right?
Who's ever going to actuallypreach through Exodus.
So I can actually hear whatyou're trying to tell me is
that is the application of that.
You may not hear it if they're goodexegesis until they get to a text.
So it takes you a long time to hear.
their true colors, ifthey stick to the text.
Um, and they, and they are veryadamant about the good ones.
(43:30):
Good as in well skilled.
Until they get to those textsand then everything shifts.
So this,
this is why it is relevant because.
You know, we've all, we've, we've,we've lived through, you know, the whole
George Floyd thing and all the riotsand most people with, with common sense
can look at that and go, that's just,I mean, that's craziness or whatever.
(43:51):
And it's easy in, in,at least in this church.
I mean, I, I, you know, we, we don'thave a lot of dark skinned people in
this church occasionally that theycome in, but it's predominantly,
you know, white culture or whatever.
And so, because we don't have thatcategory, we haven't been indoctrinated
(44:11):
that way, we kind of, kind of go, youknow, that's just, that's just far left.
But what you're telling me is thatit's not, like, this has actually
been, it has infiltrated churches,and now you have preachers who are
taught how to exegete properly.
using verse by verse,you know, like, oh, yes.
(44:33):
Going, going through, you know, inthe tradition of Martin Lloyd Jones.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and, and, and, and any goodPuritan mm-hmm . They can go through
this text mm-hmm . But because they'restill clinging to their blackness,
they're, they're able to, or theywill, they will twist at, at, at those
verses like the passage you brought up.
Yes.
And it becomes veryconfusing for the sheep.
(44:54):
So it allows, it allowsthis doctrine to persist.
And it's undergirded by wellpolished, well, uh, capable preachers.
Yes,
yes.
And, and then it's, it's beingpropped up and supported by, you
know, like the Southern Baptists.
I know it's been a big deal in the SBCand then Southern, and we were talking
(45:17):
with some of the other seminaries.
Yes.
Where they've, they've, they've,uh, adopted these, these, uh, these
tenants where you're allowed to useblackness as a hermeneutical tool.
Is it, was it title?
No, I'm thinking it was in, in, in SBC.
They voted on this reasona couple of years ago.
I remember what it was called.
It's on the tip of my tongue,but where they said, yeah, it
(45:38):
was an okay hermeneutical toolto use, uh, intersectionality.
Yeah.
For analysis, for, for analysis.
And this is where itbecomes really important.
And this is, Um, I mean, there's somany places I feel like I can go right
now, but what I want to, to really drivehome to, you know, the listeners here
(45:59):
is that it is relevant to all of us.
Yes.
And let me tell you why, if I may.
Go.
So there's a couple of reasons.
Number one, uh, some of we weretalking about earlier, right?
If you hold to these tenants.
And you are not willing to let theword of God transform your thinking,
Romans 12, in these matters.
Uh, or you even assume that youdon't even have to think about these
(46:20):
matters, which is a bold faced lie.
That's a form of agnosticism, and this is
what I think the other side is guilty of.
Yes.
And that's, that's exactly,we are practicing agnosticism.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, continue.
Is that the issue you run into.
Is that similar to you won't knowif you're, you will not know if
(46:41):
the preacher you're sitting underholds to these tenets until they get
to a sticky text, to a hard text.
You won't know if you do eitheruntil you get to a hard situation.
And then, and then what you haveto be willing to do, number one,
what you have to be willing todo is just be willing to hear.
My mind may need to bechanged on this subject.
(47:02):
And if we keep it frank, our mindneeds to be changed on all subjects.
Just count it as another mark against you.
Right.
Number two, though.
It will prevent you from deploying theauthority of God on all situations.
in the life of somebody that is eitherdarker or lighter skin than you, because
you would think that that's somethingyou can't speak to because you don't
(47:25):
know what they're going through.
Yeah.
Which again is a bold faced lie.
Right.
Because the Bible says that everything westruggle with is, is common to the flesh.
Right.
And that we sharpen each other usingthe word of God, which is universal.
So it does not actually matter.
Um, and I'm not talking about strategiesfor showing empathy or compassion.
That's not what I'm talking about.
When I'm talking about though, isthat at the end of the day, we are
(47:45):
all called to a holy standard andnumber one, there is no distinction.
So I'm not allowed to thinkof you any differently.
Uh, I'm not allowed tothink differently about you.
That degrades you as a person,irregardless of how I think about it.
And then, uh, Yeah,that's the first thing.
And then secondly, Oh, if you thinkthat you haven't been impacted by
(48:07):
it, again, you're lying to yourself.
Yeah.
Here's a good example of it.
Matt Chandler, I'm sorry, or whatever.
Matt Chandler.
Yeah.
Don't apologize.
Now.
I don't know where he is nowadays.
I know he's dealt with a numberof trials when it came to like
brain surgery or something.
So I don't know where he is currently.
Yeah, but that's
been like, that's been a while backwhen he had that, but ever since
(48:27):
his brain surgery, all that stuff.
All of this woke stuff that he's adopted.
Was that after
that?
It was after that.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Okay, okay.
That's actually helpful.
You know, a few years after that.
So, when I, when I, when Ifirst started getting word.
So, I, I, okay.
A little bit more about myself.
I have three degrees in wokeness.
I went to Columbia University.
(48:48):
Google it.
Every foolish idea.
That came through the States,came through Columbia University.
Please do not get it twisted.
Uh, I, I, I, I, I grew upthere, uh, intellectually.
I was, I, um, I went there,graduated from there.
Prior to that, I went to communitycollege at Malcolm X Community College.
I want you to hear all the tropes.
And that college was chosen intentionally.
(49:10):
Not just because itwas in my neighborhood.
Cause I could have went toHarry Truman Community College.
Would have had much more resources,but it wasn't black enough.
So I went to Malcolm X Community College,transferred to Columbia University.
After that, I went to Eastern Illinoisuniversity to study, uh, medieval history.
You may say, what does thathave to do with anything?
Oh, I'm sorry.
My degree was in AfricanAmerican studies, my BA.
(49:30):
Then my master's, uh, wasin, uh, medieval history.
And then you may say,what's the connection there?
Well, I wanted to do interreligiousinteractions in the, in the Mediterranean,
what does that have to do with anything,especially with black folks, quote,
unquote, African American studies, well.
out of a context where Islamis the primary chosen religion.
What I mean by chosen is thatthat's the one that real men join.
(49:52):
They joined, they joined Islam.
And so I was, I was heavily interestedin how the Muslim, um, religion and
empire swept through and destroyed thatMediterranean area and took it over.
That's all I wanted to say.
And how they are.
They are, uh, they are a betterreligion than Christianity and that
(50:13):
I was seeking to get a PhD so that Icould take down the kingdom of God.
I am not lying.
Right.
I hated God.
I did not want to be with Godbecause he ain't black and I am.
Right.
Uh, when I was at university, Iworked on the Malcolm X project.
There was a book that was published,uh, that I'm of course not named
because you're a student researcher.
You don't get named in thosebooks by Manning Marable.
(50:34):
Please look it up.
Right.
I studied under Manning Marable.
Please look them up.
Like I, I studied under, Iam in the lineage, right?
I am not some dude whogot mad about something.
Uh, I am well versed.
You were very religious.
Yeah.
Very religious.
Then I went to university.
After that, I got a second master'sdegree at the University of Chicago,
(50:55):
uh, in urban teacher education.
One of the first articles we readwas about the invisible knapsack.
Now, why is this a big deal?
Because I read through this.
When I hear Matt Chandler, uh, on theYouTubes, uh, preaching this sermon, he's
telling everybody that you need to takethings out of your invisible knapsack.
(51:16):
I'm sitting here thinking, surelynobody is listening to this.
I remember reading this article.
Are you out of your mind?
And what people don't understand,especially if you went to university,
if you didn't, in college accounts,if you did not go to university, you
may be blissfully ignorant about this.
And praise God that heprotects you from this.
But if you went to university, with theexception of a very small list, I mean, I
(51:40):
could probably name five schools that youprobably did not get, you indoctrinated
by this, uh, across the entire country.
I must have gone to one of them.
Amen.
So what happens is that thislanguage You don't understand
that he is deploying something.
Like, it, like, it is actually warfare.
And that is the way thatwe are taught that it is.
(52:00):
It is actual warfare.
It is not just some idea that you needto make sure that you are deconstructing
all of the ideas so that you can beopen to being made into Christ likeness.
That's not the argument when that,when that article is written, that
article was actually written in orderto teach the quote unquote non black
(52:21):
people in the room that you can't, youhave nothing to say to black people.
Unless you have gone through thisexcruciating process of unpacking
every single thought in your mind andreexamined it through this Marxist lens.
Uh, and so when I hear a preacher sayingthat I'm sitting here thinking to myself,
(52:42):
if you could see my face, I'm sittinghere thinking to myself, surely no
idiot will hear anything he has to say.
But then it occurred to me
that either people don't knowthat they've been taught that.
And that's why they think thatwhat he's saying, it's okay.
Or they don't fully understand theimplications of what he is saying.
He is warring againstteachings like in Ephesians.
(53:04):
That such distinctionsdon't matter anymore.
Yeah, and this is MattChandler you're talking about.
He is warring against ideaslike you are a new creation.
So even if you were a Ku Klux Klanmember, you are a new creation.
None of that matters anymore.
And so what ends up happening is thatthe tropes that are being used in these
sermons, you're not picking up on.
Either because by the time itfiltered down to you, it was
(53:25):
already put in these layman's termsthat makes it easier to digest.
Or you did not go to the placeswhere these ideas come from.
You're I went to two of the placeswhere these ideas come from.
I am fully engaged in the wokeness.
I am, I mean not engaged,educated in the wokeness.
I grew up in this, in my household,with a sweet mother that was doing
the best that she knew how to do.
(53:46):
Um, and so I don't, I don't holdher at fault for this, at all.
Uh, but I'm, I'm, I'm telling you, right.
You talking about watchman yesterdaywhen you talk about with Babylon,
I am the watchman trying totell you that that is a problem.
And so I appreciate people likeVoti Bakum, people like HB Charles,
that does it through sermons.
You know, they all have their ownways of dealing with the issue.
I appreciate when, you know,MacArthur priest, Ezekiel 18
(54:07):
and 19 calling it like it is.
Yeah, that was very
controversial.
A couple of years ago, three,four or five, something like that.
Yeah.
But we need, we need people thatwill actually tell you what he's
saying sounds benign, but it's not.
You have to know this, uh, but you alsohave to know that the brother or sister
sitting next to you that, uh, thatprovidentially they grew up in this.
(54:36):
There is a lot of destructionthat has occurred to their spirit
that has to be rebuilt in thehope that is, that is Christ.
And so if you're unwilling to, I'm notsaying you have to be an expert, but
if you are unwilling to learn what Godhas to say about anthropology, what
(54:57):
God has to say about man, uh, thenI do think you're doing your fellow
brother and sister a disservice,
(55:17):
Well, that was part one of a twopart podcast on, uh, race with,
uh, my good friend Donald Taylor.
And so I am looking forward to thesecond part of this, and I hope
that you will come back, uh, moreinteresting conversation to be had
over this very important topic.
And, uh.
I'd like to invite you, if you are inthe Visalia, California area, area to
(55:41):
come and join us for church on Sunday,1030, uh, or Sunday at 6 o'clock.
Um, and there's other things that we gotgoing on as well, so come check us out.
Uh, otherwise, uh, until next time.
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