October 21, 2023 • 36 mins
NIGHT 1 - PART 1
Join Dov Kandel, host of the hit late-night talk radio program, KANDEL AGAINST THE DARK, as he interviews author Orson Libretti about his latest book, CONSUMMATION — an apocalyptic tale that seems too terrifying to believe. But here’s the thing: Orson swears it’s all true. And he’s brought the tapes to prove it.
Content Warning: This series includes content that may be disturbing to some listeners, including discussion of suicide and suicidal ideation, sexual trauma, and animal harm and death. Listener discretion is advised.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Do you believe in parallel universesand alternate timelines?
Have you ever wondered if it's possible
for one reality to bleed into another?
Well, tonight we have a very special guestwho claims that
this is not only possible,but has actually already occurred.
And he has what he saysis incontrovertible proof of this fact.
(00:23):
A series of tapes.
Tapes that he contends are from
another universe entirely.
And we will be playingthose tapes here tonight live on air.
I'm Dov Kandel.
And this is Kandel Against the Dark.
(01:11):
Good evening, listeners.
And greetingsfrom another undisclosed location.
Somewhere here in the highdesert of the Great Amerigan West.
Tonight, we have what promises to bea very exciting
and unusual broadcast for youand I'm just going to get right into it
because my guest assures me we have atremendous amount of ground to cover.
(01:32):
So for those of you who weren't tuned intwo nights ago, we had longtime friend
and contributor to this show, authorand investigator, Orson Libretti, on air
-- via the phone-- to promote his new book, Consummation.
And in the course of that discussion,Orson made
some shocking claims about that bookand the source of its contents.
Well, we'll get to thenature of those claims in just a second.
(01:54):
Now, our regular
listeners will undoubtedly alreadybe familiar with Orson's impressive
credentials, and myriad works in the realmof the paranormal and conspiratorial,
including his groundbreakingbook, The Mazatlan Ghosts.
But for any fluttering Mormons out therewho may just now be drawing closer
to the flame of truth, here is a briefsummary of Orson's incredible career.
(02:17):
Orson has doctoral degreesin both mechanical
and electrical engineeringand is a former major in the U.S.
Army.
During his service, he was recruitedby the DOD into a top secret program
dedicated to investigatingstrange, unexplained phenomena
deemed to be crediblethreats to our national security.
Now, despite his retirementfrom active duty 15 years ago,
(02:39):
Orson has nevertheless continuedhis tireless investigations
into all manner of bizarre occurrencesas a civilian consultant.
His body of work is bursting at the seamswith not only extraordinary
claims, but extraordinary proof.
His talent as an investigator, author
and science communicator has made hima favorite guest on this program.
(03:00):
And we are so very pleasedto have him back on the show.
Orson, thank you for coming back. Welcome.
Thank you for for bringing me back.
I'm very excited to be here.
It's been a while. For in person.
Yes. It's good to see you.Good to see you face to face again.
It's good to see you, too.So let's just get right into it.
Now, let's startby reminding our listeners and filling in
(03:22):
those who may not have heard the broadcastthe other night about the call in
you made to the showto promote your new...
well, I suppose it's being billedas a novel, Consummation.
That's correct.
So you read an excerpt from the bookto us over the phone.
It was a chilling -- a chilling -- scene
in which the main character of the book,I believe his name was Jack.
(03:44):
Yes, Jack Courier.
Okay.
So in this excerpt, Jack is living through
what is clearly some sort of apocalypsethat is happening in his in his world.
And there are these descriptions of himbeing pursued
by some kind of strange,otherworldly creatures.
It's all very terrifying,and I must say, a testament
(04:06):
to your storytelling abilities.Oh, well...Well, thank you.
Of course.
So there was, toward the end of thatexcerpt, a mention of a cassette recorder.
This was a recorderJack was planning to use
to begin recording his experienceof this apocalyptic event.
Correct.
And now it was what you said to usafter finishing that reading.
(04:29):
That was what prompted Maggie and I toconclude we needed to immediately get you
back on the show here in the studioto talk more about all of this.
And you made two assertionsthat are, to say
the least, very extraordinary claims.
The first was that this novel consummation
(04:50):
is, in fact not a novel at all.
Or at least you contend that it isbased on events that actually occurred.
Yes. So,so the book has been promoted as fiction.
But this is nonfiction.
This is just like any of the other booksthat I've done.
This was an incident that...
(05:11):
I wasn't thereto investigate the initial incident, but
I was very heavilyinvolved with investigating the evidence
and physical aspects that were recoveredfrom the site of this incident.
And from that,
everything that I've done with the book
came directly from that.
(05:33):
Okay. Okay.
So the factual nature of the book
is the first of your amazing assertions.
And as I said, that is, to put it mildly,
a pretty incredible claim.
And me being the thorough inquisitor
that I try to be on this show,I have to press you on that.
(05:53):
I would be disappointed if you didn't.
You are a long time friend of the show.
You have been bringing us the truthfor quite some time.
But, you know, I would be remiss
had I not asked you what proofyou have to back up such a claim.
And that bringsus to your second assertion.
It is your contention
(06:14):
that these tapes that Jack was aboutto record in the excerpt from the book
that you read the other night,not only actually exist,
but were recorded in another universe,
were somehow transported here,
and you have them in your possession.
Do I...
(06:34):
do I have all of that correct? Yes.
Those recordings did happen to him
in what constitutes an alternate universe-- alternate reality.
One just as real as our own.
But those cassette recordings,like the recorder itself
and other elements from his tale,
(06:55):
made it into our universe.
We were then able to...
I was brought in to basically de-engineerthe cassettes and they...
and they were what...
Something you would recognize asa cassette, a little a little differently.
But the difference between, say,
an eight track and, you know,the modern cassettes that they have now.
And so once I was able to do that,we were able to basically transfer
(07:16):
that material onto cassettes
which could then be disseminatedthrough the project, through that,
through the departments and everything.Now, now.
And I'm sorry for interrupting.
I'd like to clarifyjust for the listeners.
Oh, please. Please. how...
who, if you are comfortable saying this,
who was itthat brought you into this project?
I, I,
I can't really say that because.
(07:39):
And, and, that’scompletely understand. Yes.
Okay.
Well,let's let's let's back up and talk about
what was discovered.
When did these materials become available
and how did you first see them?
Where did they where did they originate?
Sure, sure.
I was dealing just with what had been
(08:00):
brought from the site,but there was a meteor...
well, for lack of a better word...bolidetype object...
in the fall of 1973.
This object landedand made a crater in some farmland in...
I can say it's Nebraska...
I can't really say exactly where it was...
(08:23):
for obvious reasons, I don't want tooffend the powers that be, so to speak.
But. Well, let's just say thatif you were to look for this farm,
the very small town of which this farmwas, was only one of a few dozen,
if you were to go on a map or any records,unless you did an extremely deep
(08:44):
and detailed record search,you're not going to find anything
about this farm or the farmeror anyone from that area anymore.
If you get my meaning. I believe I do,
that raises
a very important thought, which is,
are you concernedabout bringing these tapes forward?
Another fair question.
(09:06):
The case that's based around this...
first of all, the reasonthat you can't really research this farm
or farmer anymore, why that that'sgoing to run you to a dead end...
Let's just say that was an artifactof a different, uh, administration.
Uh huh.
And, and frankly,
the government, various government
agencies, various people withinthese agencies have dropped the ball.
They made a determinationand their determination went counter to...
(09:27):
this is a large teamof which I was just a part.
I was the head of my particulardepartment, but there were there were,,,
there were seven department heads,including myself, for this...
What were some of these...uh...werethese scientists?
Oh, oh, yes, there werethere were scientists,
theoretical thinkers,even linguists and historians.
(09:48):
We were trying to determine if the data
that was on these cassettes,whether it was a hoax.
And a lot of timesyou can tell from certain grammatical
aspectsand things, but the general consensus of
everyone involved
on a different departmenthas any and even lower, lower down.
(10:08):
There were certain disagreementson the particulars,
but I can't I can't think of anyonespecifically on the team
-- and this included
some of our officer attachés-- who disagreed with our findings.
We did not find it to be a hoax,but it was determined to be a hoax.
And the case was considered dead.
Technically not declassified, but um... So
the recommendation that it be considereda hoax did not come from the team? No.
(10:31):
No. Not at all.That came from the higher ups.
We wanted to keep going, particularly
the physicistsreally wanted to explore this further.
And I know for a factthat some of these people, including
Roget Bardswell,who you may be familiar with.
Yes, yes. Roget, was on the team...
he's one of the...
he's been on so many things I'm not...
I'm not worried about bringing him up.
Not to mention the fact that,you know, he's been dead, what, five,
(10:55):
six, six years now. Yeah.
There are certain books and papers
that he came out with afterwardsthat talked about some of these aspects.
Um, in hindsight,if you if you if you know this story,
then you'll know what he’s...
you'll know, “Oh that inspired...”
I had not previously made that connection,but that's fascinating.
Okay. Okay.
So I just I want to shine a light quickly.
(11:18):
There are details in the in
the excerpt from the novel that you readthat are
very concerning in terms of entities,
elements
and one thing that I want to addressright away, because this is...
this is implicitly terrifying, if true...
(11:39):
if something came --
if these cassettes, if this player...ifthese elements came from this...
through, as we referred to the other day,the veil...
How do we know that other menacing,dangerous elements didn't also come?
Are we in danger?
(12:00):
That is a very difficult question
to answer fully for many reasons.
I will say that there are some answersthat I would like to present,
but I'd like to hold off on a little bituntil we know a bit more,
because the context of thatwill be important.
But I justI definitely understand the concern.
(12:21):
I absolutely understand the concern.
Your question was foremost on our mindsthe more we delved into this...
this incident.
And I have no reasonto think that the incident was, was
a hoax.
I believe very fervently that it was not.
Now, the...
the tapes that you have,uh, are these originals?
(12:43):
Do you have the actual originals,or are these duplicates?
Okay. These arethese are the original duplicates.
And what I mean by that is... the, the...
the cassettes that were used were of a
of a general ferromagnetic typerecording unit.
But we were able to...
it took a bit of doing,but we were able to de-engineer that
in orderto transfer it to some other cassettes.
(13:06):
So what I have is the original copies.
I have to ask,
you do have a book tour coming up.
I assume you want to sell as many copiesas possible.
Why share so much with us here?
Well, as I said,
when it comes down to it,I'm doing this to get the information out.
This needs to get out therein as many forms and avenues as possible.
(13:29):
And bottom line, that's,that's just simply more important to me.
Okay, fair enough.
I'm eager
to hear these tapes,and I'm sure our listeners are, too.
But before we do that, I just wantedto ask you one more question.
Aside from the different technologyof the cassette recorder itself, what
from the site...what from the site
(13:50):
indicates to you that this wasn'tsomething that just fell out of a plane?
How do you know.
The uh...
Where this is...Thatthis is from somewhere else.
The uh...
The burned body of the man that we assumeto be Jack laying in the
in the crater,
still clutching the briefcase,which was carbon scored.
That is a stark.
(14:11):
That was a pretty clear indicatorthat something spectacular had happened.
And I mean, it wasit wasn't a huge crater.
I mean, I just saw the photos,but I mean, you know,
they had the...the rulersthat you lay out...
you know, for, for... for sizeand everything.
And there were actually a few peoplestanding around, so...
But you can imagine somethingthe size of a of a human being traveling
at sufficient velocity to say, survive,
(14:33):
you know, the trip to the ground,what to make.
I imagine the... the briefcase...
and I think the determination
was the briefcaseprobably made most of the of the crater.
But there were, uh...
there was most of a burned body there.
I must say, things did notend well For Jack. For Jack,
If we assume that it's that it's Jack.
Indeed.
Well, we pontificated long enough here.
(14:54):
I think it's, it's now time for usfinally to dive
headlong into these recordings.
So you have a tape ready to share with us.
And I am on pins and needles to hear this.
Yeah, the first of...
the first of many, yes.
So I don'tI don't want to give you too much context.
I prefer you and the listenersto just kind of go into this
(15:16):
without any kind of contextual weight.
You know,I just want you to experience them
as close to the waythat I experienced them as possible.
That makes sense. In other words,just come to them fresh.
And I'd also like to give a shout out to,uh, to the great Maggie Wayne.
Your... The great Maggie Wayne.
Your producer and, and wife.
She set up a nice little set
(15:36):
up here where I can play inand control the, the tapes.
We're going to let this one runin its entirety because it really
sort of sets everything up
and it gives us a good idea of,of who Jack is and what his situation is.
Okay.
So I say we just hit play and let it run.
And, you know...
and of course, if, if,
(15:56):
if you want to stop at any pointand discuss something, that's fine.
Or we can wait till the end.
But it’s your show,I leave it in your capable hands.
So uh... Yeah, let's, let's just let it...let's let it play.
Let's hear... let's hearwhat you have. Okay, here we go.
(16:17):
I don't really know how to do this.
I've just never been much of a talker.
But apparently it has been decidedI'm going to be now.
So, here we are.
I think it's all startingto make sense to me.
You know, given the way that I found it,I have to assume that
(16:38):
this recorder is all part of the plan.
I mean, it being where it wasis completely inexplicable.
Just like everything else that's happened.
So clearly, it's part of the plan,
which means that simplyby making this tape,
I am probably yet again doing exactlywhat's expected of me
(17:00):
and I don't have any idea how this fitsand everything, but
if I have learned anything, it isthat nothing is accidental
when we're talkingabout the mechanics of ending a world.
And I've also learned that
there is no use in resistingwhatever is behind all of this.
And you know what? That's fine.
If they want me to use this thing,then I'll use it in the only way I feel
(17:23):
compelled to use it, which is to documentall of this,
everything that's happened,everything that's still happening for,
I don't know, posterity, I guess.
And it seems kind of moot at this point,but still,
I have to at least try to providea record.
A record of the horrors that were visited
(17:47):
on my wife, on me, on humanity.
So I guess what follows will be,
in essence,my own version of a protest song.
And I have no idea who I'm even talking tobecause I'm
pretty sure that there isn't anyone left.
But still, here I am.
(18:08):
Because even if there is nobody left,I still need to say these things out loud.
I need to try to process it.
To somehow make sense of it all.
And I should probably startby acknowledging that I am keenly aware
that there is a very smallbut nevertheless real possibility
(18:29):
that I'm simply having a psychotic break,
that everythingI think has happened hasn't,
and that ‘Scilla’s actually okay.
That she's still alive.
Still whole.
You know, that I didn't do what I think Idid, and I didn't see what I think I saw.
(18:50):
That somewhere along the lineI just had a complete break from reality.
And God, I really hope that's true,because it would certainly make
a lot more sensethan anything I've experienced in --
what I'm assuming has been-- the past couple of days.
I don't know, maybe it's even been weeks.
It's hard to tell.
(19:11):
Time feels weird now.
I have no idea how long I wasdriving through that fog before
I found this place,but that alone felt like an eternity.
And the Sun has been gone
for what feelslike an impossibly long time.
Definitely more than a day.
(19:34):
But anyway,if all of this is just in my head,
if I am just psychotic, well,
then I guess this tape is going to explain
a lot of thingsto some really confused people.
And no matter how smallI think the chances of that are,
if that's the case,if what I think is happening
isn't happening,if ‘Scilla is actually all right,
(19:59):
then I want her to know why,
Because her understandingis all that matters to me.
It’s all that's ever mattered.
And I guess regardless of whatturns out to be true,
I want it on recordthat there's still one thing
that is a guaranteed constantin any possible reality,
(20:22):
and that is that everything I have done-- all of it -- is because of her.
Well, maybe I
shouldn't say “because of her”,but more “for her”.
Because at least as far as I'm concerned,
everything I have ever beenwas purpose built for her.
And I know that sounds either insaneor pathetic or both, but I promise you
(20:46):
it will make a lot more senseonce I've explained everything.
And if I'm going to lay everything out,for this to make sense, then
I guess I need to just pick a realityand stick with it.
You know,
I can't just keep riding the fenceand wondering whether or not I'm crazy.
So for the purposes of this exercise,I am going to assume that all --
(21:09):
or at least most -- of whatI've experienced is objective reality.
It isn't the one I'd prefer, but
it's definitely the one I'm living.
And like I said, this only makes senseif you have the full story.
So, I need to make sure
we're all up to speed,because a lot has happened before now.
(21:31):
You know, as the saying goes, “Beginat the beginning.”
And who am I to book convention, right?
So yeah, I guess that's where I'll start.
With the beginning.
The beginning of the end.
And that's exactly what it was.
The beginning of a slow decay.
(21:53):
Ya know, a subtle nudge and tilt before
realityjust leaned full bore into its own demise.
We were all so unprepared.
Or maybe we were perfectly prepared,just not in any way
we could actually comprehend.
All of the prophecies of all the faiths,all the scienceticians
(22:14):
data points and models and simulationsand predictions,
every math and poetryand philosophy, all of it, wrong.
There was no bang,
no whimper, no fire, no ice.
It was just a collective sigh
(22:34):
and a feeling of everythingcycling down to a full stop.
But you know what strikes me the mostis that no one felt or noticed
the strangeness of it all,even as it was actively consuming them.
No one but me.
Well, I guess me and Reinhardt.
But who knows if he managed to resist, orif he finally gave in like everyone else.
(22:57):
You know, the seductive power of the Materwas clearly overwhelming.
So who could blame him?
And I guess despite my uniqueness,it even took me a while to realize
what was happening.
You know, not thatI have a full understanding even now, but
I am certainly farther along thanI was when this all started.
And here is one thing I know for certain.
(23:20):
The proverbial party is over.
Whoever or whatever is incharge has ordered
the tables clearedand the decorations packed away.
Thrown away, really.
Dumped out with the trash.
Because they are not going to be neededagain.
And all that's left is just to lockthe doors and turn off the lights.
(23:41):
I have no idea why I've been left
to remain this long, why I was chosen,
but I suspect it's simply because I didn'texactly take to the Mater Node.
Or I guess it would be more accurateto say that it didn't really take to me.
You know, whatever wish fulfillmentthat technology was offering just wasn't
(24:03):
compatible with me.
And so, I guess in my case,they made other plans.
You know, that's reallythe only sense I can make of this.
This idea that I've been saved,at least for the moment,
by the one thing I have always knownmade me different.
An outlier.
(24:24):
And sadly,
accepting that also means
accepting that ‘Scilla is gone.
That she suffered a horrific end.
And that it's all because of me.
Because of the way that I am, or at leastthe way that I was before all of this.
The way I was when they first found me.
(24:47):
I mean, it's pretty clearnow that I'm the reason
that her body was brutally hijacked.
Hijacked and callously repurposed,reappropriated for all of this.
For the end.
I mean, I guess in a way
that was true of everyone's body, but
(25:09):
not like hers.
Not even close.
Still, however they went,they all ended up the same in the end.
As piles of refuse spiralingdown the drain with everything else.
Anything and everything they had to offerwas sucked out.
And now all that's leftare just dehydrated husks.
(25:33):
Mere impressions of the peoplethey used to be.
Helpless victims.
Victims of themselves in a way.
Of their desires.
Because, see, that's the thing: the Nodes are all about desire. (25:45):
undefined
And that just did nothing for me.
And let me be clear, I am not saying thatI am better than any of these people.
I'm just different in
the only waythat seems to have mattered in the end.
Because I have never hadwhat you would call
(26:07):
a “normal” sense of desire-- for anything.
I just wasn't wired that way.
Ya know, even after I met ‘Scilla,which was -- in every way
-- my great awakening,you know, my first and only experience
with what it feels liketo actually want anything, even then,
any desire I felt didn'textend to anything outside of her.
(26:31):
Her and her happiness.
With everything else,I remained the same as I'd always
been (26:36):
content with having
only the things that any animal’sinstincts would point them toward.
Shelter. A good night's sleep.
A nutritious meal.
A drink when thirsty.
And all of them easily satisfied for me.
All of them basic to my survival.
(26:58):
There was never any ambitionfor anything greater than that.
Nothing but what I absolutely needed.
So, ‘Scilla,
if by some miracle you're hearing this,
you can take that to the bank.
My desire for you was just like the rest
(27:19):
-- fundamental to my basic survival.
But that weird gap in my psyche,
that lack of desire,yeah, that's gone now.
Everything has changed.
You know what happened between meand ‘Scilla right before all of this
began had already fundamentally alteredthe way I experience the world.
(27:40):
You know, much like meeting herall of those years ago had.
Only this time, it wasn't for the better.
And that one thingseems to have changed me
just enough to make everything elsepossible.
It opened a door inside of methat I didn't even know existed.
And after that, all whoever
(28:04):
or whatever is behind all this had to dowas simply walk through.
And once theyhad, there was no going back.
I guess my metamorphosis is now complete.
Just like Pinocchio, I have at long
last become a real boy.
But see, that's the thing (28:24):
Pinocchio, he had it all wrong.
Because being a real boy means
being fully human,just like everyone else.
And as it turns out,humans have their own set of strings.
Strings far less easy to cut.
Strings being relentlessly tugged on
(28:45):
by their distinctly human desires.
Desires that they never evenhad a hand in choosing for themselves.
Not really.
And I didn't choose this either.
Any of it.
But just like everyone else,I had my part to play in all this too,
and I clearly haven't fulfilledthat purpose yet.
(29:06):
Not entirely.
Because after all, I'm still here.
And like I said,there are no accidents with them.
That much is clear.
No, I was saved for something.
Maybe it's not “saved” exactly.
Maybe it's more like “saved for last”.
Maybe I'm still here because for whateverreason, they want me to witness it.
(29:31):
The end.
Or maybe they just want me to suffer.
Maybe that's it.
Well, if that's the case,
they can rest assured that I amright on task.
But who really knows?
You know,whatever it is they want from me,
I am sure they will find their wayto getting it eventually.
(29:51):
Hell, like I said,maybe I'm already doing it.
There's just no way for me to know.
But whatever the case, for now,
I am content to just keep doingwhat I'm doing.
I will document all of it,everything I can remember,
because that's reallythe only choice I have at this point.
(30:12):
It's all I've got left.
And I will keep doing ituntil I can't anymore.
Until whatever endthey have in mind for me finally comes.
But first,it looks like I need to flip this tape.
Which means so do you.
Guess I'll see you on the other side.
(30:34):
All right, I need a minute.
I felt much the same waywhen I first heard that, so...
I, I can't imagine
what it must have been like to...tohear that and...
understanding the contextof how it was recovered...
I, I would just...Iwant to get some initial
(30:54):
thoughts,and I would ask you to sort of...
if you can go back to, mentally,
the place you werewhen you when you first heard that, but...
outside of...of the...the painthat we can hear
in his voice,it raises so many questions of, of
the plan.
He talks a lot of the plan Yes. and the...
(31:16):
sort of...
you can hear the futility
in his...
in his voice, in his tone, and
the love he clearly has for...forI believe it was ‘Scilla?
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, Yes.
Short for Priscilla,you know, a term of endearment.
Clearly, he um... Cared deeply.
Oh yes, certainly.
(31:37):
So in the recording, Jack talked about...
he used the term Mater...
Mater Node? Nodes? Yes. Yes.
Can we can we speak a little bit?
Especially there is a reference to desire.
And I would just... Sure.
We can only, you know,
surmise so much from what we have.
But, but it appears that the Mater Nodewas some sort of network
(32:03):
that people tapped into, and it
affected their desires
in such a way that they became
dependent -- emotionally,
existentially dependent-- upon this system.
I mean, for lack of a better word, itsort of operated like a drug.
(32:25):
And in that
was what would become
the undoing of things, as Jack
alludes to in, in the uh recording.
I don't want to go too, too far into it.
Jack'sgoing to explain it better than I can.
And again, we I was going to say,hearing it in his own words...Certainly.
Right.
And we can only surmise so much.
(32:47):
As he said, he didn't quite take to it.
So, so his, his witnessing of the thing
is differentthan, say, someone who did take to it.
So he can, he can in certain waysonly describe it in negation.
Which, which is very...
kind of an important point of, of
Jack's story.
(33:09):
This sense of of
negation and repulsion versus
everybody else who appears to have,have taken to this thing wholeheartedly.
And what strikes me profoundly is how,
thoughit sounds like he escaped something,
(33:29):
he seems incredibly lonely in that
repulsion, as you said, from it.
It almost may have been better
had he succumbed.
Well, he mentions this concept, you know,
half jokingly,of becoming a real boy. Yeah.
(33:51):
And you get the sense that, that
he recognized his inherent difference
from other people with this, this extremelack of desire that he talks about.
We actually had some psychologists come in
to try and createa psychological profile for Jack,
and they couldn'tquite land on exactly what it was.
(34:13):
His need for satisfaction...um,that need was greatly
diminished to,to almost being nonexistent, as he said.
You know, he...
one of the things I believe he said“nutritious”, like , “a nutritious meal”.
And Certainly.
he had the animal, you know, the
little lower down on the brainstem.
He had those aspects, but not the others.
The things that we...
(34:33):
what we would think of as desire,like ambitions and things like that,
he doesn't appearto have had these sorts of things.
But then at some point, as we’lllearn in the tapes,
Priscilla comes into his life and...
I was going to say,with the exception of Priscilla, clearly.
And then and then since thensomething new has happened.
And it's almost like...
it's always appeared to methat there was some sort
(34:54):
of switch within himthat would get turned on and off,
but it wasn't his hand on the switch,if that makes sense.
Perhaps the plan that you referredto. The plan and who...
whoever or, as he said, “whoeveror whatever is behind it”.
But...but all of this...
there is a certain distinct narrative
that is going to come out,because Jack is trying to tell his story.
(35:16):
This isn't just, just simple,you know, “Dear Diary”, it's...yeah.
And I think it's fair to acknowledge
upfront that there clearly is nohappy ending in this story.
Uh, no.
Uh, ope, we're getting...
We're getting the blue light from Maggie.
I believe that she, like the rest of us,would like to hear more.
(35:39):
But before we move on,we do need to take a quick station break.
So let's do that and then we'll be back
with more from Kandel Against the Dark.
Do you believe in parallel universesand alternate timelines?
Have you ever wondered if it's possible
for one reality to bleed into another?
Well, tonight we have a very special guestwho claims that
this is not only possible,but has actually already occurred.
And he has what he saysis incontrovertible proof of this fact.
(00:23):
A series of tapes.
Tapes that he contends are from
another universe entirely.
And we will be playingthose tapes here tonight live on air.
I'm Dov Kandel.
And this is Kandel Against the Dark.
(01:11):
Good evening, listeners.
And greetingsfrom another undisclosed location.
Somewhere here in the highdesert of the Great Amerigan West.
Tonight, we have what promises to bea very exciting
and unusual broadcast for youand I'm just going to get right into it
because my guest assures me we have atremendous amount of ground to cover.
(01:32):
So for those of you who weren't tuned intwo nights ago, we had longtime friend
and contributor to this show, authorand investigator, Orson Libretti, on air
-- via the phone-- to promote his new book, Consummation.
And in the course of that discussion,Orson made
some shocking claims about that bookand the source of its contents.
Well, we'll get to thenature of those claims in just a second.
(01:54):
Now, our regular
listeners will undoubtedly alreadybe familiar with Orson's impressive
credentials, and myriad works in the realmof the paranormal and conspiratorial,
including his groundbreakingbook, The Mazatlan Ghosts.
But for any fluttering Mormons out therewho may just now be drawing closer
to the flame of truth, here is a briefsummary of Orson's incredible career.
(02:17):
Orson has doctoral degreesin both mechanical
and electrical engineeringand is a former major in the U.S.
Army.
During his service, he was recruitedby the DOD into a top secret program
dedicated to investigatingstrange, unexplained phenomena
deemed to be crediblethreats to our national security.
Now, despite his retirementfrom active duty 15 years ago,
(02:39):
Orson has nevertheless continuedhis tireless investigations
into all manner of bizarre occurrencesas a civilian consultant.
His body of work is bursting at the seamswith not only extraordinary
claims, but extraordinary proof.
His talent as an investigator, author
and science communicator has made hima favorite guest on this program.
(03:00):
And we are so very pleasedto have him back on the show.
Orson, thank you for coming back. Welcome.
Thank you for for bringing me back.
I'm very excited to be here.
It's been a while. For in person.
Yes. It's good to see you.Good to see you face to face again.
It's good to see you, too.So let's just get right into it.
Now, let's startby reminding our listeners and filling in
(03:22):
those who may not have heard the broadcastthe other night about the call in
you made to the showto promote your new...
well, I suppose it's being billedas a novel, Consummation.
That's correct.
So you read an excerpt from the bookto us over the phone.
It was a chilling -- a chilling -- scene
in which the main character of the book,I believe his name was Jack.
(03:44):
Yes, Jack Courier.
Okay.
So in this excerpt, Jack is living through
what is clearly some sort of apocalypsethat is happening in his in his world.
And there are these descriptions of himbeing pursued
by some kind of strange,otherworldly creatures.
It's all very terrifying,and I must say, a testament
(04:06):
to your storytelling abilities.Oh, well...Well, thank you.
Of course.
So there was, toward the end of thatexcerpt, a mention of a cassette recorder.
This was a recorderJack was planning to use
to begin recording his experienceof this apocalyptic event.
Correct.
And now it was what you said to usafter finishing that reading.
(04:29):
That was what prompted Maggie and I toconclude we needed to immediately get you
back on the show here in the studioto talk more about all of this.
And you made two assertionsthat are, to say
the least, very extraordinary claims.
The first was that this novel consummation
(04:50):
is, in fact not a novel at all.
Or at least you contend that it isbased on events that actually occurred.
Yes. So,so the book has been promoted as fiction.
But this is nonfiction.
This is just like any of the other booksthat I've done.
This was an incident that...
(05:11):
I wasn't thereto investigate the initial incident, but
I was very heavilyinvolved with investigating the evidence
and physical aspects that were recoveredfrom the site of this incident.
And from that,
everything that I've done with the book
came directly from that.
(05:33):
Okay. Okay.
So the factual nature of the book
is the first of your amazing assertions.
And as I said, that is, to put it mildly,
a pretty incredible claim.
And me being the thorough inquisitor
that I try to be on this show,I have to press you on that.
(05:53):
I would be disappointed if you didn't.
You are a long time friend of the show.
You have been bringing us the truthfor quite some time.
But, you know, I would be remiss
had I not asked you what proofyou have to back up such a claim.
And that bringsus to your second assertion.
It is your contention
(06:14):
that these tapes that Jack was aboutto record in the excerpt from the book
that you read the other night,not only actually exist,
but were recorded in another universe,
were somehow transported here,
and you have them in your possession.
Do I...
(06:34):
do I have all of that correct? Yes.
Those recordings did happen to him
in what constitutes an alternate universe-- alternate reality.
One just as real as our own.
But those cassette recordings,like the recorder itself
and other elements from his tale,
(06:55):
made it into our universe.
We were then able to...
I was brought in to basically de-engineerthe cassettes and they...
and they were what...
Something you would recognize asa cassette, a little a little differently.
But the difference between, say,
an eight track and, you know,the modern cassettes that they have now.
And so once I was able to do that,we were able to basically transfer
(07:16):
that material onto cassettes
which could then be disseminatedthrough the project, through that,
through the departments and everything.Now, now.
And I'm sorry for interrupting.
I'd like to clarifyjust for the listeners.
Oh, please. Please. how...
who, if you are comfortable saying this,
who was itthat brought you into this project?
I, I,
I can't really say that because.
(07:39):
And, and, that’scompletely understand. Yes.
Okay.
Well,let's let's let's back up and talk about
what was discovered.
When did these materials become available
and how did you first see them?
Where did they where did they originate?
Sure, sure.
I was dealing just with what had been
(08:00):
brought from the site,but there was a meteor...
well, for lack of a better word...bolidetype object...
in the fall of 1973.
This object landedand made a crater in some farmland in...
I can say it's Nebraska...
I can't really say exactly where it was...
(08:23):
for obvious reasons, I don't want tooffend the powers that be, so to speak.
But. Well, let's just say thatif you were to look for this farm,
the very small town of which this farmwas, was only one of a few dozen,
if you were to go on a map or any records,unless you did an extremely deep
(08:44):
and detailed record search,you're not going to find anything
about this farm or the farmeror anyone from that area anymore.
If you get my meaning. I believe I do,
that raises
a very important thought, which is,
are you concernedabout bringing these tapes forward?
Another fair question.
(09:06):
The case that's based around this...
first of all, the reasonthat you can't really research this farm
or farmer anymore, why that that'sgoing to run you to a dead end...
Let's just say that was an artifactof a different, uh, administration.
Uh huh.
And, and frankly,
the government, various government
agencies, various people withinthese agencies have dropped the ball.
They made a determinationand their determination went counter to...
(09:27):
this is a large teamof which I was just a part.
I was the head of my particulardepartment, but there were there were,,,
there were seven department heads,including myself, for this...
What were some of these...uh...werethese scientists?
Oh, oh, yes, there werethere were scientists,
theoretical thinkers,even linguists and historians.
(09:48):
We were trying to determine if the data
that was on these cassettes,whether it was a hoax.
And a lot of timesyou can tell from certain grammatical
aspectsand things, but the general consensus of
everyone involved
on a different departmenthas any and even lower, lower down.
(10:08):
There were certain disagreementson the particulars,
but I can't I can't think of anyonespecifically on the team
-- and this included
some of our officer attachés-- who disagreed with our findings.
We did not find it to be a hoax,but it was determined to be a hoax.
And the case was considered dead.
Technically not declassified, but um... So
the recommendation that it be considereda hoax did not come from the team? No.
(10:31):
No. Not at all.That came from the higher ups.
We wanted to keep going, particularly
the physicistsreally wanted to explore this further.
And I know for a factthat some of these people, including
Roget Bardswell,who you may be familiar with.
Yes, yes. Roget, was on the team...
he's one of the...
he's been on so many things I'm not...
I'm not worried about bringing him up.
Not to mention the fact that,you know, he's been dead, what, five,
(10:55):
six, six years now. Yeah.
There are certain books and papers
that he came out with afterwardsthat talked about some of these aspects.
Um, in hindsight,if you if you if you know this story,
then you'll know what he’s...
you'll know, “Oh that inspired...”
I had not previously made that connection,but that's fascinating.
Okay. Okay.
So I just I want to shine a light quickly.
(11:18):
There are details in the in
the excerpt from the novel that you readthat are
very concerning in terms of entities,
elements
and one thing that I want to addressright away, because this is...
this is implicitly terrifying, if true...
(11:39):
if something came --
if these cassettes, if this player...ifthese elements came from this...
through, as we referred to the other day,the veil...
How do we know that other menacing,dangerous elements didn't also come?
Are we in danger?
(12:00):
That is a very difficult question
to answer fully for many reasons.
I will say that there are some answersthat I would like to present,
but I'd like to hold off on a little bituntil we know a bit more,
because the context of thatwill be important.
But I justI definitely understand the concern.
(12:21):
I absolutely understand the concern.
Your question was foremost on our mindsthe more we delved into this...
this incident.
And I have no reasonto think that the incident was, was
a hoax.
I believe very fervently that it was not.
Now, the...
the tapes that you have,uh, are these originals?
(12:43):
Do you have the actual originals,or are these duplicates?
Okay. These arethese are the original duplicates.
And what I mean by that is... the, the...
the cassettes that were used were of a
of a general ferromagnetic typerecording unit.
But we were able to...
it took a bit of doing,but we were able to de-engineer that
in orderto transfer it to some other cassettes.
(13:06):
So what I have is the original copies.
I have to ask,
you do have a book tour coming up.
I assume you want to sell as many copiesas possible.
Why share so much with us here?
Well, as I said,
when it comes down to it,I'm doing this to get the information out.
This needs to get out therein as many forms and avenues as possible.
(13:29):
And bottom line, that's,that's just simply more important to me.
Okay, fair enough.
I'm eager
to hear these tapes,and I'm sure our listeners are, too.
But before we do that, I just wantedto ask you one more question.
Aside from the different technologyof the cassette recorder itself, what
from the site...what from the site
(13:50):
indicates to you that this wasn'tsomething that just fell out of a plane?
How do you know.
The uh...
Where this is...Thatthis is from somewhere else.
The uh...
The burned body of the man that we assumeto be Jack laying in the
in the crater,
still clutching the briefcase,which was carbon scored.
That is a stark.
(14:11):
That was a pretty clear indicatorthat something spectacular had happened.
And I mean, it wasit wasn't a huge crater.
I mean, I just saw the photos,but I mean, you know,
they had the...the rulersthat you lay out...
you know, for, for... for sizeand everything.
And there were actually a few peoplestanding around, so...
But you can imagine somethingthe size of a of a human being traveling
at sufficient velocity to say, survive,
(14:33):
you know, the trip to the ground,what to make.
I imagine the... the briefcase...
and I think the determination
was the briefcaseprobably made most of the of the crater.
But there were, uh...
there was most of a burned body there.
I must say, things did notend well For Jack. For Jack,
If we assume that it's that it's Jack.
Indeed.
Well, we pontificated long enough here.
(14:54):
I think it's, it's now time for usfinally to dive
headlong into these recordings.
So you have a tape ready to share with us.
And I am on pins and needles to hear this.
Yeah, the first of...
the first of many, yes.
So I don'tI don't want to give you too much context.
I prefer you and the listenersto just kind of go into this
(15:16):
without any kind of contextual weight.
You know,I just want you to experience them
as close to the waythat I experienced them as possible.
That makes sense. In other words,just come to them fresh.
And I'd also like to give a shout out to,uh, to the great Maggie Wayne.
Your... The great Maggie Wayne.
Your producer and, and wife.
She set up a nice little set
(15:36):
up here where I can play inand control the, the tapes.
We're going to let this one runin its entirety because it really
sort of sets everything up
and it gives us a good idea of,of who Jack is and what his situation is.
Okay.
So I say we just hit play and let it run.
And, you know...
and of course, if, if,
(15:56):
if you want to stop at any pointand discuss something, that's fine.
Or we can wait till the end.
But it’s your show,I leave it in your capable hands.
So uh... Yeah, let's, let's just let it...let's let it play.
Let's hear... let's hearwhat you have. Okay, here we go.
(16:17):
I don't really know how to do this.
I've just never been much of a talker.
But apparently it has been decidedI'm going to be now.
So, here we are.
I think it's all startingto make sense to me.
You know, given the way that I found it,I have to assume that
(16:38):
this recorder is all part of the plan.
I mean, it being where it wasis completely inexplicable.
Just like everything else that's happened.
So clearly, it's part of the plan,
which means that simplyby making this tape,
I am probably yet again doing exactlywhat's expected of me
(17:00):
and I don't have any idea how this fitsand everything, but
if I have learned anything, it isthat nothing is accidental
when we're talkingabout the mechanics of ending a world.
And I've also learned that
there is no use in resistingwhatever is behind all of this.
And you know what? That's fine.
If they want me to use this thing,then I'll use it in the only way I feel
(17:23):
compelled to use it, which is to documentall of this,
everything that's happened,everything that's still happening for,
I don't know, posterity, I guess.
And it seems kind of moot at this point,but still,
I have to at least try to providea record.
A record of the horrors that were visited
(17:47):
on my wife, on me, on humanity.
So I guess what follows will be,
in essence,my own version of a protest song.
And I have no idea who I'm even talking tobecause I'm
pretty sure that there isn't anyone left.
But still, here I am.
(18:08):
Because even if there is nobody left,I still need to say these things out loud.
I need to try to process it.
To somehow make sense of it all.
And I should probably startby acknowledging that I am keenly aware
that there is a very smallbut nevertheless real possibility
(18:29):
that I'm simply having a psychotic break,
that everythingI think has happened hasn't,
and that ‘Scilla’s actually okay.
That she's still alive.
Still whole.
You know, that I didn't do what I think Idid, and I didn't see what I think I saw.
(18:50):
That somewhere along the lineI just had a complete break from reality.
And God, I really hope that's true,because it would certainly make
a lot more sensethan anything I've experienced in --
what I'm assuming has been-- the past couple of days.
I don't know, maybe it's even been weeks.
It's hard to tell.
(19:11):
Time feels weird now.
I have no idea how long I wasdriving through that fog before
I found this place,but that alone felt like an eternity.
And the Sun has been gone
for what feelslike an impossibly long time.
Definitely more than a day.
(19:34):
But anyway,if all of this is just in my head,
if I am just psychotic, well,
then I guess this tape is going to explain
a lot of thingsto some really confused people.
And no matter how smallI think the chances of that are,
if that's the case,if what I think is happening
isn't happening,if ‘Scilla is actually all right,
(19:59):
then I want her to know why,
Because her understandingis all that matters to me.
It’s all that's ever mattered.
And I guess regardless of whatturns out to be true,
I want it on recordthat there's still one thing
that is a guaranteed constantin any possible reality,
(20:22):
and that is that everything I have done-- all of it -- is because of her.
Well, maybe I
shouldn't say “because of her”,but more “for her”.
Because at least as far as I'm concerned,
everything I have ever beenwas purpose built for her.
And I know that sounds either insaneor pathetic or both, but I promise you
(20:46):
it will make a lot more senseonce I've explained everything.
And if I'm going to lay everything out,for this to make sense, then
I guess I need to just pick a realityand stick with it.
You know,
I can't just keep riding the fenceand wondering whether or not I'm crazy.
So for the purposes of this exercise,I am going to assume that all --
(21:09):
or at least most -- of whatI've experienced is objective reality.
It isn't the one I'd prefer, but
it's definitely the one I'm living.
And like I said, this only makes senseif you have the full story.
So, I need to make sure
we're all up to speed,because a lot has happened before now.
(21:31):
You know, as the saying goes, “Beginat the beginning.”
And who am I to book convention, right?
So yeah, I guess that's where I'll start.
With the beginning.
The beginning of the end.
And that's exactly what it was.
The beginning of a slow decay.
(21:53):
Ya know, a subtle nudge and tilt before
realityjust leaned full bore into its own demise.
We were all so unprepared.
Or maybe we were perfectly prepared,just not in any way
we could actually comprehend.
All of the prophecies of all the faiths,all the scienceticians
(22:14):
data points and models and simulationsand predictions,
every math and poetryand philosophy, all of it, wrong.
There was no bang,
no whimper, no fire, no ice.
It was just a collective sigh
(22:34):
and a feeling of everythingcycling down to a full stop.
But you know what strikes me the mostis that no one felt or noticed
the strangeness of it all,even as it was actively consuming them.
No one but me.
Well, I guess me and Reinhardt.
But who knows if he managed to resist, orif he finally gave in like everyone else.
(22:57):
You know, the seductive power of the Materwas clearly overwhelming.
So who could blame him?
And I guess despite my uniqueness,it even took me a while to realize
what was happening.
You know, not thatI have a full understanding even now, but
I am certainly farther along thanI was when this all started.
And here is one thing I know for certain.
(23:20):
The proverbial party is over.
Whoever or whatever is incharge has ordered
the tables clearedand the decorations packed away.
Thrown away, really.
Dumped out with the trash.
Because they are not going to be neededagain.
And all that's left is just to lockthe doors and turn off the lights.
(23:41):
I have no idea why I've been left
to remain this long, why I was chosen,
but I suspect it's simply because I didn'texactly take to the Mater Node.
Or I guess it would be more accurateto say that it didn't really take to me.
You know, whatever wish fulfillmentthat technology was offering just wasn't
(24:03):
compatible with me.
And so, I guess in my case,they made other plans.
You know, that's reallythe only sense I can make of this.
This idea that I've been saved,at least for the moment,
by the one thing I have always knownmade me different.
An outlier.
(24:24):
And sadly,
accepting that also means
accepting that ‘Scilla is gone.
That she suffered a horrific end.
And that it's all because of me.
Because of the way that I am, or at leastthe way that I was before all of this.
The way I was when they first found me.
(24:47):
I mean, it's pretty clearnow that I'm the reason
that her body was brutally hijacked.
Hijacked and callously repurposed,reappropriated for all of this.
For the end.
I mean, I guess in a way
that was true of everyone's body, but
(25:09):
not like hers.
Not even close.
Still, however they went,they all ended up the same in the end.
As piles of refuse spiralingdown the drain with everything else.
Anything and everything they had to offerwas sucked out.
And now all that's leftare just dehydrated husks.
(25:33):
Mere impressions of the peoplethey used to be.
Helpless victims.
Victims of themselves in a way.
Of their desires.
Because, see, that's the thing: the Nodes are all about desire. (25:45):
undefined
And that just did nothing for me.
And let me be clear, I am not saying thatI am better than any of these people.
I'm just different in
the only waythat seems to have mattered in the end.
Because I have never hadwhat you would call
(26:07):
a “normal” sense of desire-- for anything.
I just wasn't wired that way.
Ya know, even after I met ‘Scilla,which was -- in every way
-- my great awakening,you know, my first and only experience
with what it feels liketo actually want anything, even then,
any desire I felt didn'textend to anything outside of her.
(26:31):
Her and her happiness.
With everything else,I remained the same as I'd always
been (26:36):
content with having
only the things that any animal’sinstincts would point them toward.
Shelter. A good night's sleep.
A nutritious meal.
A drink when thirsty.
And all of them easily satisfied for me.
All of them basic to my survival.
(26:58):
There was never any ambitionfor anything greater than that.
Nothing but what I absolutely needed.
So, ‘Scilla,
if by some miracle you're hearing this,
you can take that to the bank.
My desire for you was just like the rest
(27:19):
-- fundamental to my basic survival.
But that weird gap in my psyche,
that lack of desire,yeah, that's gone now.
Everything has changed.
You know what happened between meand ‘Scilla right before all of this
began had already fundamentally alteredthe way I experience the world.
(27:40):
You know, much like meeting herall of those years ago had.
Only this time, it wasn't for the better.
And that one thingseems to have changed me
just enough to make everything elsepossible.
It opened a door inside of methat I didn't even know existed.
And after that, all whoever
(28:04):
or whatever is behind all this had to dowas simply walk through.
And once theyhad, there was no going back.
I guess my metamorphosis is now complete.
Just like Pinocchio, I have at long
last become a real boy.
But see, that's the thing (28:24):
Pinocchio, he had it all wrong.
Because being a real boy means
being fully human,just like everyone else.
And as it turns out,humans have their own set of strings.
Strings far less easy to cut.
Strings being relentlessly tugged on
(28:45):
by their distinctly human desires.
Desires that they never evenhad a hand in choosing for themselves.
Not really.
And I didn't choose this either.
Any of it.
But just like everyone else,I had my part to play in all this too,
and I clearly haven't fulfilledthat purpose yet.
(29:06):
Not entirely.
Because after all, I'm still here.
And like I said,there are no accidents with them.
That much is clear.
No, I was saved for something.
Maybe it's not “saved” exactly.
Maybe it's more like “saved for last”.
Maybe I'm still here because for whateverreason, they want me to witness it.
(29:31):
The end.
Or maybe they just want me to suffer.
Maybe that's it.
Well, if that's the case,
they can rest assured that I amright on task.
But who really knows?
You know,whatever it is they want from me,
I am sure they will find their wayto getting it eventually.
(29:51):
Hell, like I said,maybe I'm already doing it.
There's just no way for me to know.
But whatever the case, for now,
I am content to just keep doingwhat I'm doing.
I will document all of it,everything I can remember,
because that's reallythe only choice I have at this point.
(30:12):
It's all I've got left.
And I will keep doing ituntil I can't anymore.
Until whatever endthey have in mind for me finally comes.
But first,it looks like I need to flip this tape.
Which means so do you.
Guess I'll see you on the other side.
(30:34):
All right, I need a minute.
I felt much the same waywhen I first heard that, so...
I, I can't imagine
what it must have been like to...tohear that and...
understanding the contextof how it was recovered...
I, I would just...Iwant to get some initial
(30:54):
thoughts,and I would ask you to sort of...
if you can go back to, mentally,
the place you werewhen you when you first heard that, but...
outside of...of the...the painthat we can hear
in his voice,it raises so many questions of, of
the plan.
He talks a lot of the plan Yes. and the...
(31:16):
sort of...
you can hear the futility
in his...
in his voice, in his tone, and
the love he clearly has for...forI believe it was ‘Scilla?
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, Yes.
Short for Priscilla,you know, a term of endearment.
Clearly, he um... Cared deeply.
Oh yes, certainly.
(31:37):
So in the recording, Jack talked about...
he used the term Mater...
Mater Node? Nodes? Yes. Yes.
Can we can we speak a little bit?
Especially there is a reference to desire.
And I would just... Sure.
We can only, you know,
surmise so much from what we have.
But, but it appears that the Mater Nodewas some sort of network
(32:03):
that people tapped into, and it
affected their desires
in such a way that they became
dependent -- emotionally,
existentially dependent-- upon this system.
I mean, for lack of a better word, itsort of operated like a drug.
(32:25):
And in that
was what would become
the undoing of things, as Jack
alludes to in, in the uh recording.
I don't want to go too, too far into it.
Jack'sgoing to explain it better than I can.
And again, we I was going to say,hearing it in his own words...Certainly.
Right.
And we can only surmise so much.
(32:47):
As he said, he didn't quite take to it.
So, so his, his witnessing of the thing
is differentthan, say, someone who did take to it.
So he can, he can in certain waysonly describe it in negation.
Which, which is very...
kind of an important point of, of
Jack's story.
(33:09):
This sense of of
negation and repulsion versus
everybody else who appears to have,have taken to this thing wholeheartedly.
And what strikes me profoundly is how,
thoughit sounds like he escaped something,
(33:29):
he seems incredibly lonely in that
repulsion, as you said, from it.
It almost may have been better
had he succumbed.
Well, he mentions this concept, you know,
half jokingly,of becoming a real boy. Yeah.
(33:51):
And you get the sense that, that
he recognized his inherent difference
from other people with this, this extremelack of desire that he talks about.
We actually had some psychologists come in
to try and createa psychological profile for Jack,
and they couldn'tquite land on exactly what it was.
(34:13):
His need for satisfaction...um,that need was greatly
diminished to,to almost being nonexistent, as he said.
You know, he...
one of the things I believe he said“nutritious”, like , “a nutritious meal”.
And Certainly.
he had the animal, you know, the
little lower down on the brainstem.
He had those aspects, but not the others.
The things that we...
(34:33):
what we would think of as desire,like ambitions and things like that,
he doesn't appearto have had these sorts of things.
But then at some point, as we’lllearn in the tapes,
Priscilla comes into his life and...
I was going to say,with the exception of Priscilla, clearly.
And then and then since thensomething new has happened.
And it's almost like...
it's always appeared to methat there was some sort
(34:54):
of switch within himthat would get turned on and off,
but it wasn't his hand on the switch,if that makes sense.
Perhaps the plan that you referredto. The plan and who...
whoever or, as he said, “whoeveror whatever is behind it”.
But...but all of this...
there is a certain distinct narrative
that is going to come out,because Jack is trying to tell his story.
(35:16):
This isn't just, just simple,you know, “Dear Diary”, it's...yeah.
And I think it's fair to acknowledge
upfront that there clearly is nohappy ending in this story.
Uh, no.
Uh, ope, we're getting...
We're getting the blue light from Maggie.
I believe that she, like the rest of us,would like to hear more.
(35:39):
But before we move on,we do need to take a quick station break.
So let's do that and then we'll be back
with more from Kandel Against the Dark.
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