March 19, 2024 • 16 mins
Welcome to an inspiring episode of the NeoFraus's podcast. We delve into the unique world of female fraud professionals, that is making significant strides in the realm of fraud awareness and prevention.
In this episode, Marie Rice, a certified fraud examiner (CFE) and the founding member of the Spokane chapter of the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners (ACFE), narrates her fascinating journey.
Since 2009, she has worked on the 'Justice For Fraud Victims Project,' which equips students in understanding the gravity of fraud cases and their investigation. Tune in to hear how this commendable project not only sparks intellectual curiosity but also helps bridge the gap in resources for legal authorities.
Marie emphasizes the importance of intellectual curiosity, collaboration, and respect in tackling cases. She views each case as not just about crunching numbers or tracing assets, but understanding the human element behind it. The students’ engagement in these real-life cases makes a significant difference, ensuring a victim who might not have the resources to afford professional services is granted justice.
Marie candidly shares her view on the power of collaboration, readiness in adapting to the fast-paced digital world, and her own personal experience dealing with life adversities. With profound advice and an empowering message, especially for women, this episode is a must-listen.
Marie's Bio:
Marie holds a PhD in accounting, with an emphasis in fraud and forensic accounting, and is an Assistant Professor at Siena College where she serves as Director of the Center for Anti-fraud Resources and Examination Services (CARES). Prior to entering academia, Marie was an anti-fraud, compliance, and audit professional with 20 years of experience. As a practitioner, she managed forensic accounting engagements up to and including expert testimony and advised audit committees and executive leadership teams of small to mid-sized U.S. listed companies on risk and compliance matters. Marie was a founding member and Past President of the Spokane Chapter of the ACFE and a founding member of the Justice for Fraud Victims Project at Gonzaga University, for which she was awarded the ACFE’s 2010 Outstanding Achievement in Outreach/Community Service Award and the Spokane Police Chief’s Citizen Award. She currently serves on the board of the Albany Chapter of the ACFE.
To connect with Marie:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariericeslaineps/
Email: mrice@siena.edu
Enjoy listening! Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/neofraus
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to Fraud Busting Neo-Fraud's podcast.
It is the only podcast for female fraud
professionals and their allies who want to stay on top of the fraud awareness
spectrum in order to thrive professionally while maximizing their happiness
and having the courage to create the life they love. Thank you for listening.
(00:32):
Hi, everyone, and thank you for listening to our new episode here on the NeoFrost podcast.
We have a special guest for today's episode.
This is Marie Rice, and we are going to be talking about her absolutely amazing
project that she's working on.
(00:54):
But without further ado, do, I'd like to give Marie the floor to introduce herself
briefly to the audience.
Hi, Marie. Hi, Olga. Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it and for giving me the opportunity to talk about the Justice
for Fraud Victims Project.
So I have been a CFE since 2005. I was one of the founding members of the Spokane chapter of the ACFE.
(01:16):
And through that role, I got involved with the Justice for Fraud Victims Project
in 2009 through Gonzaga University.
I was in practice as a corporate risk and compliance officer and forensic accountant for 20 years.
So I love to do everything from risk analyses and strategic spots to expert witnessing.
I've taken the stand a few times and you know that that's always an experience, but I still love it.
(01:39):
I love the thrill of preparing for and getting up on the stand. So that's my story.
Thank you so much, Marie, for this wonderful introduction. I'm sure the audience
will be happy to learn even more from you today.
So I'd like to jump into my second question for you.
(02:00):
Could you please tell the audience a little bit more about this project of yours?
And also, what was the story behind it? How did you think of even creating something
like this? and how far you've gone.
I myself, truly, truly impressed, but I'd like this to be shared with a wider audience.
(02:21):
So here we go. Thank you. Thank you for doing this, by the way.
So yeah, I love telling this story because first of all, it's not my idea.
The idea was truly a collaboration.
So one day in July in 2009, an assistant US attorney, Jill Bolton,
who's now in private practice, was at her neighbor, Sarah Kern's house.
(02:42):
They were having a barbecue IQ and Sarah's boss, Gary Weber was there.
He's the director of accounting programs or was at the time the director of
accounting programs at Gonzaga University.
And Jill had recognized through her work at the AUSA's office that there was
definitely a need for assistance with investigating financial pieces of crimes,
particularly white collar crimes.
(03:03):
And her office and her resources didn't have the bandwidth to get as much done
as they would like to. So she asked Sarah if there was anything Gonzaga University could do.
Sarah pulled over Gary and the three of them started having a conversation.
Gary came up with the idea of, sure, we could have a class.
Nobody knew what that looked like. Nobody knew what was going to happen next.
The three of them agreed to then reach out to their local contacts and see who
(03:28):
they would need to get the right people in place.
So Jill reached out to our local prosecuting attorney, Shane Smith.
Shane reached out to Stacey Carr, who was the senior detective on our fraud unit at the time.
Stacey reached out to me because I was the president of the ACMB chapter in Spokane at the time.
And the six of of us got together in August of 2009, and we started brainstorming
(03:48):
ideas of ways that students can be used to help shore up the gap with financial
crime resources that the feds needed.
And through our conversations, we realized the federal level also has the FBI,
they have intelligence centers, et cetera, but really the local police did not
have any resources other than some training that they got for NW3C.
(04:11):
So that was really our core area of where we were going to try to fill the gap.
And we started the class with four mentors from the Spokane chapter of the ACFE,
12 students, and each of the groups, so one mentor for four students,
would work on a case that was referred to us by local or county law enforcement.
These were cases where a report had been filed, a police report had been filed,
(04:35):
but nothing else had been done on the case.
So the students were able to work under the guidance of their CFE mentor to
receive evidence directly from the alleged victim and to put together this case
that would help shore up the financial component of the overall white-collar crime investigation.
And through that process, we ran the, that started in January of 2010 was our first class.
(05:00):
Within the first three semesters, the students had investigated 20 cases and
they had quantified $688,000 in losses for these victims.
Now, the benefit of the program is that these are cases that the local and county
law enforcement, they didn't have the resources to dedicate all of this time
and energy to figuring out just the financial component.
So that part of the case might not have been investigated if we hadn't been
(05:24):
able to provide the services.
And the services are all pro bono. It's great experience for the students. They love it.
And it truly fits the ACFE model because we have CFE mentors supervising,
working with law enforcement, working with the victim, and then supervising
the students and helping the students learn about the anti-fraud profession,
all of the detail-orientedness that is needed, and also all of the things that
(05:47):
they need to think about. that it's not just about the numbers.
This isn't just about crunching numbers or tracing assets.
It's about understanding the people behind it. Because of course,
as we know, one of the elements of fraud is intent, right?
And to prove intent, especially with these smaller financial crimes,
can be a little challenging.
You have to really think outside the box and look at digital evidence and open
(06:08):
source intelligence to really put a full picture together to figure out what's
going on, on why it's happening, who's hurt, if anybody.
And in some cases, it's not actually a financial crime that's ongoing.
Sometimes it's just messy books, right? So we also save law enforcement resources
because they don't need to be spending their precious time searching through
(06:29):
a potential case that ends up being a dud for them, right?
They need to be focusing their time on things that will add value to their outcomes.
So this also saves them time, helps the community because a lot of times these alleged victims,
They want to have something done, but they don't necessarily understand that
not every law enforcement officer is trained in going through deep financial
(06:51):
analyses or accounting analyses, right?
So using the students' skills for that purpose helps those alleged victims in the community as well.
They receive a service that they might not otherwise have been able to get.
And in most cases, we specifically try to find alleged victims who can't afford
to go out and hire their own professionals.
So we're not trying to find a fraud that is so big that they can go to a forensic
(07:15):
accounting firm and have it done, have it investigated, right?
We're looking for those victims who can't afford the services,
who rely on the public services, and where those resources are not available, we can help fill the gap.
Wow, absolutely amazing. I have no words.
I think this idea and the concept of the project is absolutely amazing because
(07:40):
it's helping out, you know, a few directions and solving a few problems.
And the students obviously are enjoying the practice that they're getting and
the interactions with the professional mentors that they are receiving.
It's absolutely amazing. And, you know, thank you so much for working on this
(08:01):
and your team, the people who came up with the idea and collaboration.
I've always thought throughout my work experience that collaboration is a tool
that is really, really helpful in many, many aspects of work that people do.
And especially in our field, the investigations, I would say collaboration is essential.
(08:25):
One of the important factors sometimes for the uncovering of the truth in the cases.
So this example of yours is another, you know, evidence of that,
I guess, statement that collaboration is so important and it's key.
And I'm glad you're developing something like this.
(08:49):
Thank you. Yeah, you know, to me, it truly reminds me of the ACFP model.
I tell my students all the time, you can understand the financial transactions,
but that is literally one fourth of what we do as CFPs, right?
You have to understand the psychology, you have to understand the criminology,
you have to be able to work with members of law enforcement,
folks in the legal community, attorneys, US attorneys, prosecuting attorneys,
(09:11):
defense attorneys, whoever.
However, so we need to be able to collaborate amongst this group and also be
able to communicate with each other.
Right. So that is one of the benefits that students in this program get.
And what we have seen is that many of the students who participate in the Justice
for Fraud Victims Project become CFEs because they become passionate about that
same collaborative model like you were talking about.
(09:32):
And then they see the value in it. And some of them have even come back and
become CFE chapter leaders. Right.
So so there's a reinvestment in our profession and in our community as well.
And I'm happy to say that the Justice for Fraud Victims Project is currently
being run in six universities across the United States.
And I'm very grateful for the support of the ACFE.
(09:53):
So through the ACFE Research Foundation, we were able to secure some funding
to help promote this project. project and CFE chapters are now getting recognized
for their volunteerism as CFE mentors through the project as well.
So if chapter leaders are interested in learning more about it,
I'm more than happy to talk to them, as is my colleague, David Gladstein,
(10:16):
who's at SUNY Old Westbury.
We're very passionate about this project because it does do all the things you
said and serves the community outreach as well.
So chapters can receive credit towards their community service Service Award
through the project as well.
So we're really excited about this and so, so, so grateful.
We've seen the benefits with the students and with the profession and with the
(10:39):
community outreach, serving the alleged victims who can't otherwise get justice for their situation.
But at the end of the day, we can't do it without all of these resources.
And we are so grateful for all of the help and support.
No, absolutely. Absolutely amazing. Again, I'm so glad that the coverage within
the United States grew and is growing for this project and for all,
(11:04):
you know, the benefits of it from all the angles.
And even the one you described for chapter leaders, for their involvement to
be still, you know, recognized. Recognized. That's wonderful because that's
again, you know, covering things from all the angles.
Everyone gets the enjoyment of being part of something important,
(11:24):
such as a project, but also getting rewarded and being recognized for it.
It's a wonderful formula. Wow.
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Marie, for sharing with the audience today
about your project and about your story.
I will make sure to include into the episode page on contact for,
(11:48):
I guess, your chapter or anything you prefer to be shared so that people could
get in touch with you regarding this.
I know for my chapter, I am going to advocate for this, for this,
you know, task for sure, because I think it's amazing.
And this is how the networking is being developed also, and providing opportunities
(12:09):
to student, young professionals,
introducing them into the area and the profession is the best thing,
because this is how we lay the grounds for the future generations,
right? Right. And yeah.
And also younger people have great, bright ideas, you know, to contribute with.
They're excellent with the out of the box.
(12:32):
And the technology, they know all the new social media platforms.
So when we're talking open source intelligence, they know how to operate through
all of those technology devices. I'm like, OK, show me. Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. Amazing and fascinating.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again.
Well. To conclude our conversation today,
(12:54):
what I like asking my guests is any advice you could provide to the audience
out there, perhaps sometimes just to women, simply to provide some empowering thoughts,
any tips or advice or your personal formulas on how to remain remain resilient
(13:16):
in difficult situations in life, at work, and in general, how to continue,
you know, believing in your dreams, in your aspirations?
Absolutely. So yeah. So one thing I will say, my word of advice to any woman
(13:36):
anti-fraud professional is intellectual curiosity opens doors.
Especially when you're working with law enforcement. It is a male-dominated industry.
And it can be intimidating to be in a room with a bunch of folks who have cuffs and guns, right?
And they definitely have a presence when they're in that room.
(13:57):
So being curious and asking questions from a place of curiosity,
not only does it help you learn more, but it also establishes a better rapport.
It allows you to learn how to communicate with other people in the industry.
And it also helps you gain some respect and some, what's that, referent power, right?
(14:19):
So it's not, you don't necessarily have to have the gun and the badge.
You can come in here and be the knowledge expert, the intellectual expert.
So never underestimate your curiosity. If you don't know, that's a good thing.
It opens up your mind to learning and be open to, if you think you know,
no, still sit back and try to listen and learn, right?
(14:42):
Because again, that intellectual curiosity, sometimes we think we know the right
answer, but then there's other ways to get to that right answer.
So the more open you can be to your intellectual curiosity, the more doors will
open to you and the more you will be able to collaborate and gain respect and
reference from other people.
I've been very fortunate with the folks that I've worked in.
(15:02):
In my professional career, I've either worked with law enforcement or IT professionals,
both male dominated industries.
And through just having the questions and always asking questions,
I've been able to be successful in both of those worlds.
So that's kind of my message to women.
And I'll tell you, life happens and let life happen. Family first.
(15:25):
I've had times in my career where I've had to pause. I have a son who was born with half a brain.
And right before an an ACFE conference, I was derailed because he needed me
more than I needed to be at that conference, right?
So let life happen. Don't try to be everything to everybody.
People will understand if you are open, honest, transparent with them,
(15:46):
they get that life happens and they will support you and they will encourage you.
And I've been very fortunate that again, the colleagues that I have worked with,
anytime I need something, when life happens, I pick up the phone.
I just say life is happening. I need to take a pause.
And people will always be there for you to support you and help you out through
that. So and if they're not, then they're not the right people you want to be hanging out with.
(16:10):
Yeah, well, thank you so much. Amazing advice for the audience.
Absolutely. And I like the last part as well. If they're not understanding, don't hang out.
Thank you so much marie for the wonderful insights and the wonderful advice
(16:31):
you shared with us today thank you for being our wonderful guest and thanks
everyone for listening stay healthy and happy bye-bye thank you.
Music.
Music.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to Fraud Busting Neo-Fraud's podcast.
It is the only podcast for female fraud
professionals and their allies who want to stay on top of the fraud awareness
spectrum in order to thrive professionally while maximizing their happiness
and having the courage to create the life they love. Thank you for listening.
(00:32):
Hi, everyone, and thank you for listening to our new episode here on the NeoFrost podcast.
We have a special guest for today's episode.
This is Marie Rice, and we are going to be talking about her absolutely amazing
project that she's working on.
(00:54):
But without further ado, do, I'd like to give Marie the floor to introduce herself
briefly to the audience.
Hi, Marie. Hi, Olga. Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it and for giving me the opportunity to talk about the Justice
for Fraud Victims Project.
So I have been a CFE since 2005. I was one of the founding members of the Spokane chapter of the ACFE.
(01:16):
And through that role, I got involved with the Justice for Fraud Victims Project
in 2009 through Gonzaga University.
I was in practice as a corporate risk and compliance officer and forensic accountant for 20 years.
So I love to do everything from risk analyses and strategic spots to expert witnessing.
I've taken the stand a few times and you know that that's always an experience, but I still love it.
(01:39):
I love the thrill of preparing for and getting up on the stand. So that's my story.
Thank you so much, Marie, for this wonderful introduction. I'm sure the audience
will be happy to learn even more from you today.
So I'd like to jump into my second question for you.
(02:00):
Could you please tell the audience a little bit more about this project of yours?
And also, what was the story behind it? How did you think of even creating something
like this? and how far you've gone.
I myself, truly, truly impressed, but I'd like this to be shared with a wider audience.
(02:21):
So here we go. Thank you. Thank you for doing this, by the way.
So yeah, I love telling this story because first of all, it's not my idea.
The idea was truly a collaboration.
So one day in July in 2009, an assistant US attorney, Jill Bolton,
who's now in private practice, was at her neighbor, Sarah Kern's house.
(02:42):
They were having a barbecue IQ and Sarah's boss, Gary Weber was there.
He's the director of accounting programs or was at the time the director of
accounting programs at Gonzaga University.
And Jill had recognized through her work at the AUSA's office that there was
definitely a need for assistance with investigating financial pieces of crimes,
particularly white collar crimes.
(03:03):
And her office and her resources didn't have the bandwidth to get as much done
as they would like to. So she asked Sarah if there was anything Gonzaga University could do.
Sarah pulled over Gary and the three of them started having a conversation.
Gary came up with the idea of, sure, we could have a class.
Nobody knew what that looked like. Nobody knew what was going to happen next.
The three of them agreed to then reach out to their local contacts and see who
(03:28):
they would need to get the right people in place.
So Jill reached out to our local prosecuting attorney, Shane Smith.
Shane reached out to Stacey Carr, who was the senior detective on our fraud unit at the time.
Stacey reached out to me because I was the president of the ACMB chapter in Spokane at the time.
And the six of of us got together in August of 2009, and we started brainstorming
(03:48):
ideas of ways that students can be used to help shore up the gap with financial
crime resources that the feds needed.
And through our conversations, we realized the federal level also has the FBI,
they have intelligence centers, et cetera, but really the local police did not
have any resources other than some training that they got for NW3C.
(04:11):
So that was really our core area of where we were going to try to fill the gap.
And we started the class with four mentors from the Spokane chapter of the ACFE,
12 students, and each of the groups, so one mentor for four students,
would work on a case that was referred to us by local or county law enforcement.
These were cases where a report had been filed, a police report had been filed,
(04:35):
but nothing else had been done on the case.
So the students were able to work under the guidance of their CFE mentor to
receive evidence directly from the alleged victim and to put together this case
that would help shore up the financial component of the overall white-collar crime investigation.
And through that process, we ran the, that started in January of 2010 was our first class.
(05:00):
Within the first three semesters, the students had investigated 20 cases and
they had quantified $688,000 in losses for these victims.
Now, the benefit of the program is that these are cases that the local and county
law enforcement, they didn't have the resources to dedicate all of this time
and energy to figuring out just the financial component.
So that part of the case might not have been investigated if we hadn't been
(05:24):
able to provide the services.
And the services are all pro bono. It's great experience for the students. They love it.
And it truly fits the ACFE model because we have CFE mentors supervising,
working with law enforcement, working with the victim, and then supervising
the students and helping the students learn about the anti-fraud profession,
all of the detail-orientedness that is needed, and also all of the things that
(05:47):
they need to think about. that it's not just about the numbers.
This isn't just about crunching numbers or tracing assets.
It's about understanding the people behind it. Because of course,
as we know, one of the elements of fraud is intent, right?
And to prove intent, especially with these smaller financial crimes,
can be a little challenging.
You have to really think outside the box and look at digital evidence and open
(06:08):
source intelligence to really put a full picture together to figure out what's
going on, on why it's happening, who's hurt, if anybody.
And in some cases, it's not actually a financial crime that's ongoing.
Sometimes it's just messy books, right? So we also save law enforcement resources
because they don't need to be spending their precious time searching through
(06:29):
a potential case that ends up being a dud for them, right?
They need to be focusing their time on things that will add value to their outcomes.
So this also saves them time, helps the community because a lot of times these alleged victims,
They want to have something done, but they don't necessarily understand that
not every law enforcement officer is trained in going through deep financial
(06:51):
analyses or accounting analyses, right?
So using the students' skills for that purpose helps those alleged victims in the community as well.
They receive a service that they might not otherwise have been able to get.
And in most cases, we specifically try to find alleged victims who can't afford
to go out and hire their own professionals.
So we're not trying to find a fraud that is so big that they can go to a forensic
(07:15):
accounting firm and have it done, have it investigated, right?
We're looking for those victims who can't afford the services,
who rely on the public services, and where those resources are not available, we can help fill the gap.
Wow, absolutely amazing. I have no words.
I think this idea and the concept of the project is absolutely amazing because
(07:40):
it's helping out, you know, a few directions and solving a few problems.
And the students obviously are enjoying the practice that they're getting and
the interactions with the professional mentors that they are receiving.
It's absolutely amazing. And, you know, thank you so much for working on this
(08:01):
and your team, the people who came up with the idea and collaboration.
I've always thought throughout my work experience that collaboration is a tool
that is really, really helpful in many, many aspects of work that people do.
And especially in our field, the investigations, I would say collaboration is essential.
(08:25):
One of the important factors sometimes for the uncovering of the truth in the cases.
So this example of yours is another, you know, evidence of that,
I guess, statement that collaboration is so important and it's key.
And I'm glad you're developing something like this.
(08:49):
Thank you. Yeah, you know, to me, it truly reminds me of the ACFP model.
I tell my students all the time, you can understand the financial transactions,
but that is literally one fourth of what we do as CFPs, right?
You have to understand the psychology, you have to understand the criminology,
you have to be able to work with members of law enforcement,
folks in the legal community, attorneys, US attorneys, prosecuting attorneys,
(09:11):
defense attorneys, whoever.
However, so we need to be able to collaborate amongst this group and also be
able to communicate with each other.
Right. So that is one of the benefits that students in this program get.
And what we have seen is that many of the students who participate in the Justice
for Fraud Victims Project become CFEs because they become passionate about that
same collaborative model like you were talking about.
(09:32):
And then they see the value in it. And some of them have even come back and
become CFE chapter leaders. Right.
So so there's a reinvestment in our profession and in our community as well.
And I'm happy to say that the Justice for Fraud Victims Project is currently
being run in six universities across the United States.
And I'm very grateful for the support of the ACFE.
(09:53):
So through the ACFE Research Foundation, we were able to secure some funding
to help promote this project. project and CFE chapters are now getting recognized
for their volunteerism as CFE mentors through the project as well.
So if chapter leaders are interested in learning more about it,
I'm more than happy to talk to them, as is my colleague, David Gladstein,
(10:16):
who's at SUNY Old Westbury.
We're very passionate about this project because it does do all the things you
said and serves the community outreach as well.
So chapters can receive credit towards their community service Service Award
through the project as well.
So we're really excited about this and so, so, so grateful.
We've seen the benefits with the students and with the profession and with the
(10:39):
community outreach, serving the alleged victims who can't otherwise get justice for their situation.
But at the end of the day, we can't do it without all of these resources.
And we are so grateful for all of the help and support.
No, absolutely. Absolutely amazing. Again, I'm so glad that the coverage within
the United States grew and is growing for this project and for all,
(11:04):
you know, the benefits of it from all the angles.
And even the one you described for chapter leaders, for their involvement to
be still, you know, recognized. Recognized. That's wonderful because that's
again, you know, covering things from all the angles.
Everyone gets the enjoyment of being part of something important,
(11:24):
such as a project, but also getting rewarded and being recognized for it.
It's a wonderful formula. Wow.
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Marie, for sharing with the audience today
about your project and about your story.
I will make sure to include into the episode page on contact for,
(11:48):
I guess, your chapter or anything you prefer to be shared so that people could
get in touch with you regarding this.
I know for my chapter, I am going to advocate for this, for this,
you know, task for sure, because I think it's amazing.
And this is how the networking is being developed also, and providing opportunities
(12:09):
to student, young professionals,
introducing them into the area and the profession is the best thing,
because this is how we lay the grounds for the future generations,
right? Right. And yeah.
And also younger people have great, bright ideas, you know, to contribute with.
They're excellent with the out of the box.
(12:32):
And the technology, they know all the new social media platforms.
So when we're talking open source intelligence, they know how to operate through
all of those technology devices. I'm like, OK, show me. Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. Amazing and fascinating.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again.
Well. To conclude our conversation today,
(12:54):
what I like asking my guests is any advice you could provide to the audience
out there, perhaps sometimes just to women, simply to provide some empowering thoughts,
any tips or advice or your personal formulas on how to remain remain resilient
(13:16):
in difficult situations in life, at work, and in general, how to continue,
you know, believing in your dreams, in your aspirations?
Absolutely. So yeah. So one thing I will say, my word of advice to any woman
(13:36):
anti-fraud professional is intellectual curiosity opens doors.
Especially when you're working with law enforcement. It is a male-dominated industry.
And it can be intimidating to be in a room with a bunch of folks who have cuffs and guns, right?
And they definitely have a presence when they're in that room.
(13:57):
So being curious and asking questions from a place of curiosity,
not only does it help you learn more, but it also establishes a better rapport.
It allows you to learn how to communicate with other people in the industry.
And it also helps you gain some respect and some, what's that, referent power, right?
(14:19):
So it's not, you don't necessarily have to have the gun and the badge.
You can come in here and be the knowledge expert, the intellectual expert.
So never underestimate your curiosity. If you don't know, that's a good thing.
It opens up your mind to learning and be open to, if you think you know,
no, still sit back and try to listen and learn, right?
(14:42):
Because again, that intellectual curiosity, sometimes we think we know the right
answer, but then there's other ways to get to that right answer.
So the more open you can be to your intellectual curiosity, the more doors will
open to you and the more you will be able to collaborate and gain respect and
reference from other people.
I've been very fortunate with the folks that I've worked in.
(15:02):
In my professional career, I've either worked with law enforcement or IT professionals,
both male dominated industries.
And through just having the questions and always asking questions,
I've been able to be successful in both of those worlds.
So that's kind of my message to women.
And I'll tell you, life happens and let life happen. Family first.
(15:25):
I've had times in my career where I've had to pause. I have a son who was born with half a brain.
And right before an an ACFE conference, I was derailed because he needed me
more than I needed to be at that conference, right?
So let life happen. Don't try to be everything to everybody.
People will understand if you are open, honest, transparent with them,
(15:46):
they get that life happens and they will support you and they will encourage you.
And I've been very fortunate that again, the colleagues that I have worked with,
anytime I need something, when life happens, I pick up the phone.
I just say life is happening. I need to take a pause.
And people will always be there for you to support you and help you out through
that. So and if they're not, then they're not the right people you want to be hanging out with.
(16:10):
Yeah, well, thank you so much. Amazing advice for the audience.
Absolutely. And I like the last part as well. If they're not understanding, don't hang out.
Thank you so much marie for the wonderful insights and the wonderful advice
(16:31):
you shared with us today thank you for being our wonderful guest and thanks
everyone for listening stay healthy and happy bye-bye thank you.
Music.
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