Fresh Start with Dr. David - Season 3 - Episode 18 - Harvesting Wellness: Moving Beyond Migraine Headaches Naturally & Holistically with Expert Neurologist Dr. Sui Wong - Fresh Start with Dr. David

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Good afternoon and welcome back to the Fresh Start with Dr. David podcast.
I hope everyone is well. As you may or may not know, we are now officially in the fall.
And, you know, I always point out that if you can try to live your life by the
seasons, every season has an energy that's attached to it.

(00:22):
As you know, the spring is all about planting seeds.
Summer is all about taking care of and nourishing those seeds.
And then the fall is about harvest, right? And then we reset and then we start
with the spring again. So this is the harvest season.
This is the time of the year to reap rewards for the seeds that you planted
and nourished and to receive things back from the universe.

(00:45):
And I always say, if you live your life according to the seasons,
with the energy of the seasons, you're going to come up with better outcomes.
So this is a good opportunity for you to take a back step.
Take a back seat, look at what you've done, calculate and chronicle your lessons
learned and the things that you've gained, and then celebrate,

(01:07):
and then take a break and then rest and relax before the next spring starts.
So this is a really, really good time to reassess things.
And then also to get a break from the hot weather and a cool off and all those kind of things.
And that kind of brings us to my guest speaker for today, which I'm really,

(01:27):
really excited about because she's an award-winning neurologist.
She's the founder of the Brain Health Practice.
She's also a best-selling author. She's an expert in migraine headache management.
She's a public speaker, a thought leader, an expert on a topic that's very,
very important and relevant these days, which is headaches.

(01:50):
And so without further ado, I'd like to introduce our expert,
thought leader, and award-winning neurologist and guest today, Dr.
Swee Wong. Welcome, Dr. Wong.
Thank you so much, Dr. David. I'm so, so delighted to be here.
And I love your opening learning about medicines. Absolutely.

(02:11):
You're kind of going by the rhythms. Oh, I love it so much. Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
Absolutely. And I'm so excited to have you. Now, you're based in the United
Kingdom, is that correct?
Yes, that's right. I'm based in London, big city of London.
And this is where I do my clinical practice. So I am a full-time clinician.

(02:32):
I also do research and my place of practice is in the UK.
Awesome. Awesome. So if you don't mind, I'm going to share a little bit,
just a little bit about your areas of expertise and your accolades with the audience here.
And that way, hopefully, they'll do some research online and some things like that.

(02:52):
But Dr. Sui Wong is an award-winning neurologist.
She's an expert in neurology, a neuro-ophthalmologist renowned for her transformative
approach to brain health.
With over a decade of experience at esteemed institutions such as the National Health Services, Dr.
Wong specializes in managing migraine, headaches, and neurological disorders.

(03:14):
Her transition from clinical practice to public advocacy underscores her commitment
to making vital health information accessible to all patients.
As the founder of the Brain Health Practice, Dr.
Wong has developed the Innovative Brains Program, and that's spelled capital

(03:34):
B-R-A, then lowercase parentheses I, and then uppercase N-S.
And that program combines mindfulness, yoga, and lifestyle changes to enhance
brain resilience and balance the autonomic nervous system.
Her approach demystifies complex scientific concepts, offering practical tools

(03:58):
for patients and individuals to improve their brain health and overall well-being.
And also, obviously, to help them overcome being afflicted by chronic headaches. Dr.
Wong's extensive research background, which includes over 150 academic papers
and several influential books, including Mindfulness for Brain Health and Break

(04:19):
Free from Migraines Naturally.
Highlights her dedication to integrating holistic health strategies into everyday life. Dr.
Wong's work with charities like the Visual Snow Initiative and Food for the
Brain and her patronage of IIHUK reflects her compassionate commitment to supporting

(04:42):
those affected by neurological conditions, including headaches.
And Dr. Wong provides valuable insights into practical brain health strategies,
demonstrating mindfulness, and then making lifestyle adjustments to lead to
improvements in well-being and neurological processes.
And so that's a little bit about Dr. Wong. Did I miss anything?

(05:07):
No, no, you're so kind. Yes, absolutely. Really, the summary of it is that I've
been very much doing a patient one-on-one in the clinics as a clinician,
physician, neurologist.
And I've recently started a more public-facing approach, which is why I'm here

(05:28):
to talk more widely about the kind of approaches that have been very effective in my clinics.
Because I realized that talking more about this will empower people,
will help more people. So, yeah, so that is really the key summary, really.
Thank you. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're so welcome. You're so welcome.
I feel so blessed to have you here today.
So there are so many misconceptions about headaches.

(05:52):
And it's funny because when clients and patients of mine come to my office and
they ask if they complain about headaches or things like that, You know,
they're coming to me usually to get past or help manage a mental health condition
in a holistic way that includes a lot of the things that you mentioned,
including mindfulness,

(06:12):
but also, you know, life coaching and hypnosis and hypnotherapy and things that
I say massage the brain, massage the nervous system, massage the mind, things like that.
A lot of times when I ask them about headaches, they all say they have migraines.
And, you know, and I remember, you know, I graduated from my medical school in 2010.

(06:33):
And I remember all the different types of headaches, the major types of headaches
that we learned about tension headaches and cluster headaches and migraine headaches.
And, you know, there are all these other different types of headaches,
like six or seven different types that we had to know about.
But now everybody seems to say that they have a migraine headache.

(06:55):
And a lot of times if I ask them real specific questions about their headaches,
a lot of times they sound more like tension headaches or cluster headaches than
they sound like migraine headaches,
although they might have some migraine features.
Tell us a little bit about maybe why everybody categorizes their headaches as a migraine these days.

(07:19):
I think there is more and more understanding about how migraine manifests.
And migraine is one of the most common headache conditions, actually.
And sometimes it could be felt like a cluster, you know, clustering of things.
Or sometimes it could be felt like a tension.

(07:40):
And oftentimes with more of a, with kind of figuring out with some additional
symptoms, There could be a clue that it could be a bit more than just tension or a clust headache.
So as you would know, migraine is a neurological condition.
Yes. And there is instability of sensory processing.

(08:01):
And it is a condition influenced by both genetic tendencies and external factors,
which is why I talk a lot about the kind of things people can do to get themselves
better based on managing the external factors just to prevent migraines effectively.
Because I always say, although we can't change our genes,

(08:22):
we can change our environment. And
that gives people the starting point of knowing, okay, I know what to do.
I just know there's a systematic approach to this, which is why I ended up doing this brain thing.
It's funny, as you're just talking about, because actually, yes,
it was representing building brain resilience on the first part and balancing

(08:44):
the autonomic nervous system.
The little I in parentheses is because of my subspecialties is actually also
in the visual aspects of brain in neurothymology.
And one of the commonest reasons people see me would be vision disturbance from
migraine, hence brains.
But basically, the external factors that I cover would be looking at a very systematic approach.

(09:09):
So, for example, the aspects that build brain resilience from what people need
to consider for their sleep that was beneficial for them, their nutrition and
the nutrients from it, their blood sugar balance,
you know, how the swings in the blood sugar effects can make it more likely
for them to get migraine attacks.
For them to think about gut health, that the gut-brain connection is really key here.

(09:32):
And then there are also other aspects with the autonomic nervous system.
So it's not that it's bad to be one, to be kind of going on the sympathetic,
which is more fight or flight, or it's good to be more parasympathetic, rest and relax.
We need both. it's about the balancing of both right
which is why it's about being able to get in

(09:52):
tune with what the body needs which is why i love how you just
talk about the seasons you know you talk about seasons where you
just get in tune with getting into a rhythm and in a similar way i talk about
how we balance the autonomic nervous system we could use breath work we could
use mindful movement mindfulness we could do yoga type practices or hypnosis

(10:13):
or hypnotherapy so a repertoire of tools to balance all that,
to make it less likely for somebody to get a migraine attack.
Gotcha. Gotcha. And you know, one of the things is I kind of,
when I kind of look back at just kind of the basis of headaches,
I remember when I was in medical school, there were like two basic hypotheses

(10:35):
about where headaches come from.
And, and I remember because one of them was like a kind of a cutting edge kind of new theory.
But the first thing about headaches was, was basically that's one that's kind
of based off of pressures, right?
Like blood pressures in the cerebral hemispheres and things like that.

(10:56):
So one of them seemed to be related to blood flow and blood pressure and things like that.
But then there was a new theory, or it was new at the time when I was in medical
school, and they were doing a lot of research on it.
And it was basically kind of related to that, but it was about inflammation.
And it was related to inflammation inflammation in either parts of the brain

(11:17):
or the blood vessels or nerves that were in the brain.
Tell me, tell us our audience, people who, you know, don't have a,
you know, a medical knowledge of headaches and things like that.
Tell them about what are some of the bases of where headaches come from,
regardless of whether it's a migraine or a tension headache or a cluster headache
and those kind of things.

(11:39):
Yeah. So I think basically when there is a sensation of pain,
if there was something actively inflamed like in condition in fact a condition
called meningitis right inflammation of the lining of the brain so that's kind
of where there is sensation because.
Inside the brain itself, there is no receptors for pain.

(12:02):
It's really where it comes from, from the surface or the lining of the brain, the dura.
And sometimes people may feel, for example, oh, the pain is in a specific spot,
say behind the eye, and they think that there's a problem behind the eye.
But in fact, what is interesting is that it's what we call a referred pain.
Right. It's in that region.

(12:23):
And the brain is thinking, oh, okay, it's that location. So there is this instability
with how things are sensed and probably through the trigeminal system.
So people may have heard of this shooting
pain condition called trigeminal neuralgia, so that's very classic.
But in headache, like the migraine situation, the trigeminal system is involved,

(12:47):
but it's not the condition of trigeminal neuralgia.
But we know at the level of the brain stem, the base of the brain,
where there is an integration issue with the sensory processing and the tendency for pain.
It's really interesting what you said about the pressure and inflammation.
And in fact, I think there are probably a few potential threads through for migraine.

(13:09):
Some of it could be related to energy, energy pathways.
Hence, I talked about how the blood sugar balance is key.
So one of the key things I've noticed is that when people have got spikes of
blood sugar, that will usually be followed by a crash of blood sugar.
And I can sometimes pick up people who, depending on what they're eating for

(13:30):
breakfast or lunch, how it can then trigger a later migraine that they really
to do with the blood sugar fluctuation.
So probably something to do with the energy pathways.
We also know that inflammation is really an important aspect here.
So hence, I talked about the gut health in passing as well, because we know
that what we eat and what the gut does.

(13:50):
And the healthy or the bacteria within the microbiome, the environment in the gut,
is really important with what it produces and the chemicals that it produces
and how it gets to the brain and the whole body's response to that.
So those are some of the examples.
For example, sleep is also really key because that is actually about keeping

(14:11):
to a regular rhythm that allows people to be able to flush out toxins in the
deep sleep phase for them to establish a regular pattern
so they get more resilient emotionally,
to stabilize the stress impact to cause people to get more headaches or migraines.
So those are kind of the examples.

(14:32):
And that's funny that you would mention that because another kind of trend,
it's like I haven't really thought about this, but some of the things that you've
said are kind of prompting memories of things that people have said to me.
So one of the things that I've kind of notice is, and I haven't actually tabulated
any of this, but I've certainly noticed patterns and correlations,

(14:53):
maybe not causality, but correlations certainly,
that a lot of people who complain of headaches also seem to have issues with
sleep, like insomnia or hypersomnia and things like that.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it's actually a two-way They creep,
so to speak, because poor quality sleep can make it more likely for people to get migraine.

(15:15):
And in fact, when people have migraines, they often have difficulty with sleep.
So I oftentimes start off with saying about looking at your rhythms.
Back to the seasons, now our body has its own internal rhythm.
We have a body clock system called the circadian rhythm that tells us when to
wake and when to sleep. And when the body clock is on point,

(15:38):
it allows us to have good quality of sleep.
So you will know and hopefully helpful for your listeners to know that as one
sleeps, we go through cycles in the night.
So typically in the night, we go through about five or six cycles.
Within each cycle, there are different stages that go from light sleep to deep

(16:01):
sleep to the rapid eye movement phase.
So if one gets to a regular pattern, the quality of each stage,
whether it's the deep sleep or the REM sleep, it gets better because of this regularity.
The body really loves rhythm and getting into a rhythm that supports what the body needs to do.

(16:22):
And when in In the deep sleep phase, there was this remarkable thing that we
discovered about 10 years ago, we as in the scientific community discovered,
where there could be the channels opening through the shrinking of certain parts
of the brain to allow channels of fluid flowing flush through.
So it's called the lymphatic system.

(16:44):
Your listeners may well know of this term called the lymphatic system.
People may know about lymphatic massages or lymphatic things.
So we know that lymphatic, the public oftentimes know that the lymph flow is
important for clearance of the toxins for the body.
And the lymphatic system, starting
with the G, is really important for clearance of the brain toxins.

(17:06):
So I think all that's really, really important.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know in my first self-improvement book,
Sweet Potato Pie for the Spirit, Soul, and Psyche, chapter two is all about
sleep and circadian rhythms and how to fix your sleep naturally.
And so a lot of people who come to me with sleep issues, that's where I kind of direct them.

(17:26):
And in that chapter in the book, chapter two, it talks about the neurotransmitters
that are involved in sleep and circadian rhythms.
And it also talks about, you know, the different stages of sleep and the restorative theories of sleep,
how sleep should be restorative because it's associated with basically utilities

(17:49):
and processes to clean up things, repair.
And so a lot of people don't start out on a good foot the next day if their sleep is lacking.
And I know in my book, I also talk about lifestyle choices, diet, nutrition,
even bedroom temperature and things like that and the timing of when they fall

(18:10):
asleep because so many people these days think it's natural or at least natural
for them to fall asleep at 1, 2 a.m. in the morning.
And then they're surprised when they have headaches and other issues.
Yes, absolutely. And something that may surprise your listeners is that some
people say to me, oh, they work a lot during the weekday. They're very sleep deprived.

(18:33):
So on weekends, they try to sleep in. For example, if they're waking up at 6.30
in the morning, then on weekends, they try to sleep in until 9 o'clock in the morning. Right. Right.
And in fact, when somebody sleeps in, it's more likely for them to get headaches
that day. Yep, absolutely.
Yeah, so that is something where I oftentimes have the prescription of getting the regularity.

(18:55):
So sadly, they oftentimes are advised to wake up early on weekends.
Right. But we have a way to support that because to avoid the sleep deprivation,
I prescribe a nap during the weekend.
Right. And if they work from home during the weekday, I prescribe a half-an-hour
nap about midday as well during the weekday.
And we start talking about how they can figure out what time they go to bed

(19:17):
so that then after about two weeks of this pattern, they have a good grasp of
what is the right amount of sleep for them.
And then it's when they start to see some improvements with their sleep quality
and, of course, the migraines.
Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. So let's jump into some of the things that you have expertise,

(19:41):
some of the areas of your expertise, and also just some common questions that
people ask about headaches and neurology as it relates to brain health and things like that.
So what are some of the, in your
opinion, what are some of the connections between the health of the brain,
and I would also suggest just the absence of headaches and the lifestyle choices

(20:06):
that each one of us make on a daily basis.
So the question is about the headaches and the lifestyle choices. Yes.
Yeah, very, very linked. So I mentioned about the migraines being a combination
of genetic tendency and external environmental factors.

(20:28):
And blood sugar. Absolutely.
And another way to think about it is I like to give the example often of a migraine attack.
Like a boiling pot of water that is overboiling.
So overboiling and the water spilling out of the pot, that's an example of an
analogy to migraine attacks.
So we can do a couple of things here. One, we could remove the top of the lid

(20:52):
of the pan, create some space.
That may not be enough. We may need to pour some cold water onto the pan itself,
which will stop the water from overboiling. and that could be the example of
taking painkillers that could just have a temporary relief.
But we can't keep pouring water, cold water on top because you will overflow again.

(21:14):
So what we do need to do is we need to turn down the fire and turning down the
fire would be the lifestyle aspect.
So the lifestyle aspects, we just spoke about sleep, we mentioned about the
blood sugar and nutrition, gut health we also mentioned.
Physical activity is a big one as well. Well, physical activity has to be introduced
with nuances because when people have a lot of migraines, during the time when

(21:38):
they have a lot of migraines,
that's when they may need to have a more relaxing pace. Right. Exactly.
Either actual rest or going for a little stroll rather than doing anything more vigorous.
Right. And it's kind of in between when, between the migraine attacks,
for them to have a strategy, like a plan of what they can do to build their

(22:00):
body's resilience and their brain resilience.
And having regular physical activity, the different forms of it,
can help to build preventative aspects against migraine.
So, for example, I talk about moderate-intensity activities.
Physical activity so that would be something like a brisk
walk and i often have a little tip to say do

(22:21):
the singing test you know what the singing test is dr david no a singing test
yes a singing test you mean like vocal cords well actually very close very close
uh i asked i suggest for people to go for a brisk walk and you have to walk
at such a pace that they cannot sing a song,

(22:41):
it's a singing test but they can talk they
can talk they can talk in short phrases so that should be the
base that should be the base foundation so that
is one category and I suggest to aim for
a total of 150 minutes in a week so on average the best that's best to be split
up for example five days a week of going for a 30 minute brisk walk with the

(23:03):
singing test or another activity like cycling or something else and the other
category would be to build strength So important.
And it's for everybody, including women.
There's a huge proportion of this three to one ratio of females to male who
have, so more women have migraines.

(23:24):
Wow okay and a key thing culture
well historically many many places women
are the strength training in women are not emphasized
and now we think there would be a rate to do strength training
it's so important because building muscle is really
important and from the point of view of migraine it
also helps to balance blood sugar it improves

(23:47):
metabolic health and it will stabilize blood
sugar and also we know that activities like strength
training or moderate intensity activity it also
boosts the brain derived neurotropic factors
bdnf chemical brain that
helps support the brain function so there are loads of things and of course
other things like the feel-good hormones the dopamine the serotonin you know

(24:11):
the endorphins that come from a regular physical activity but it's kind of something
that slowly gets introduced so a really nice thing i tend to to recommend to my friends
So I do a mentorship, a migraine mentorship. Over three months,
I take people through the foundation aspects of the BRAINS program for migraine prevention.
So one of the things that is really loved by my students is that they do a morning walk.

(24:37):
They get the morning light for their circadian rhythm.
Morning exercise also helps with the circadian rhythm, and it helps build their
resilience against migraines. That's one nice little thing that people often say.
Another tip for your listeners is that after eating a meal, I recommend people

(24:58):
go for a little gentle stroll.
A gentle stroll that helps with digestion and helps to balance the blood sugar.
So these things, perhaps your listeners could give them a try and let us know how it goes.
No, absolutely. Those are great, great tips. And, you know, one of the things
that also comes to mind is one of the things you mentioned at the very beginning.

(25:20):
As you may or may not know, I have a book that I wrote called The Nutrient Diet.
And it's about a lot of things, but it's the first book of its kind that talks
about the science and biochemistry and metabolics of the foods you put in your body.
And then also the psychology of why people make the lifestyle choices that they make.

(25:45):
So it tries to help people understand what to eat, what not to eat,
the balance of different things to eat, but also about how to make changes to
their lifestyle and diet in a way that makes sense based off their personality.
But one of the things that I talk about in the book and one of the bases of
the book is this simple equation that input equals output.

(26:09):
And basically what that means from a dietary and nutritional standpoint is that
whatever's happening in your body is partially a result of the things you put in your body.
So if you don't put in the right things in your body, you're not going to get a good outcome.
But if you put in better things in your body, then you're going to get better outcomes.
And so it all starts with diet and nutrition. Now, in the beginning,

(26:32):
you mentioned about gut health.
Tell me a little bit about the relationship. And I know, for instance,
one of the things that's common, commonly known, for instance,
in psychiatry and fields like that, is that a lot of serotonin and other things
are actually made in the gut.
But everything that goes into your body is processed through the gut for the most part.

(26:56):
So what is the link between gut health and brain health? And how are they linked?
That's a great question. and it's something that I think...
More and more people are starting to understand. So some people even call the
gut the second brain because of the vast number of brain cells,
or neurons, rather, nerve cells in the gut, within the network.

(27:21):
So it's even considered the second brain. So there's all these transmissions,
as you mentioned, that gets produced.
And the key thing is that it's a two-way street, again, a two-way street coming
up again, where there is a highway connection.
You use the word highway. That's right. In the U.S., I'm trying to think.
Or interstate. Yeah, highway, interstate, any of those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(27:45):
Between the brain and the gut, through the vagus nerve.
Vagus nerve is cranial nerve number 10. And it comes from the word vagabond.
And vagabond means the wandering, the wanderer, the traveler.
Because of how far it gets. The cranial nerve goes all the way to the gut and
to different parts of the body as well. And there is this direct connection.

(28:09):
So, for example, we talked about how the gut digests food.
There's a microbiome, which is the bacteria in the gut.
And hopefully, most people will have more good than bad bacteria, so to speak.
Good meaning it produces beneficial compounds and it helps the body digest food
in a way that's beneficial for the body.

(28:29):
And when there's chemicals or the molecules called short-chained fatty acids
or other kind of things that's produced by the microbiome, it can get directly into the bloodstream.
Some of it could even, or any of these, some of these chemicals could go directly
through the vagus nerve connection to the brain as well.

(28:49):
So we know that there's this two-way direction.
And many of your listeners probably have this experience of feeling so-called
the butterflies in the stomach.
And all the times when people are about to have a really big,
like maybe a job interview or going on stage, some people just feel like,
oh, I can feel something in the stomach. Yes.

(29:09):
And some people may even need to go to the bathroom. Yes. You know,
and their gut is moving a bit quicker.
And that is just to illustrate how there is a strong connection from brain to
gut and also the other way from gut to brain.
So that highlights how it's so important with how we nourish.
So I love what you just said about how do we, what do we put into our bodies and nourishing it.

(29:32):
And what we nourish comes into our body. It can promote the growth of the so-called
good bacteria, the gut microbiome, and produce all these beneficial compounds. So I see things like,
Think of the vegetables or the fiber, the plant beans, the nuts, the legumes.

(29:52):
They are like the so-called fertilizer.
And think of the gut microbiome, like the flowers, the plants in your garden.
So in order for your garden to flourish, you need to feed it the right kind
of fertilizer and water for it to be able to grow.
So that comes from the food that we nourish.

(30:13):
Absolutely. And so, some of the things I recommend people to do,
think about whole foods-based approach, which I think is really,
really important for us to consider.
You will know with prevalence of how much ultra-processing of food is in the
food situation. The U.S. is a lot.

(30:34):
Yeah, absolutely. well absolutely all these absolutely
all these compounds that could affect the gut as
i talk about going back to whole foods and
you know mostly plants having lots of variety of plants
and the more variety they have it kind of gives more yes different types of
fertilizers so to speak to the microbiome and encourage different microbiomes

(30:58):
to chew to take time to chew to take Take time to take deep breaths,
allow the body to digest.
The body needs that resting and digesting. Again, like the rhythms that you
spoke about, so that then it can really benefit from these compounds.
So yeah, these are the kind of things that I start talking about.

(31:19):
Sometimes we talk about eating things that is fermented.
Fermented foods such as yogurt, or you could say yogurt in the US,
or other things like I love… Cheeses or sour cream, things like that.
Exactly, sauerkraut, exactly.
So things that will have both prebiotic, which is like the fiber,

(31:43):
the fertilizer type, and the probiotic, which is the good bacteria for the body.
So having these combinations would be great.
Another thing I'd like to recommend is, I spoke about different varieties to have,
as many colors, natural colors, of course. Natural colors. The rainbow.
Eat the rainbow. Absolutely. Like the green leafy vegetables.

(32:05):
You want the leafy kind. You want to have the cruciferous, the crunchy kind,
for the detoxification pathways.
You want the beans, the nuts, the seeds. You want to get all the magnesium,
all the nutrients that's beneficial for migraine prevention.
And, you know, the blueberries, the aubergine, zucchini, as you would say in

(32:26):
the U.S., all the different colors. Absolutely. So beneficial.
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know,
it's funny that you mentioned that because one of the things that I talk about
in my book is the notion that at one point, and I could be wrong,
but I think this started in Europe or more specifically in the U.K.,

(32:47):
but at one point they started, because foods normally,
you know, things in the environment normally cover the rainbow.
They're every color, green, yellow, brown, red, white, blue,
purple, everything else.
But at some point in the industrial complex or the industrial age,
they started bleaching everything.

(33:09):
And so they would bleach sugar and they would bleach flour and they would bleach all these things.
And now people are, you know, now we've come to the point where we're saying,
you know what, don't bleach it because those pigments contain a lot of the the
things that are good for our body.
And that's why I always say eat the rainbow, because those colors within those
colors are the things that help our bodies become more balanced.

(33:32):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And less bleaching, less processing. Yes.
Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and another thing too, is I did an episode,
maybe, I don't know, God, I believe it was this season.
I'm now in season three, but I think it was a season, it was this season,
the episode was titled, Trust Your Body Because It's Not Lying to You.
And the whole theme of that episode was about listen to your body and watch

(33:58):
what happens when your body reacts to certain things.
And so if you eat at McDonald's five times a week and then you start getting
headaches, you should notice that connection.
Or if every time you eat at Burger King, your stomach hurts and you have diarrhea
and you have a headache, notice it.
Or if every single time you drink, I mean, as you know, people in the UK and

(34:21):
in the United States consume large amounts of alcohol.
And so one of the things that people will notice is they consume certain types
of alcohol and they're more likely or less likely to get a headache the next day.
And I think maybe that's related to fermentation.
I've actually wrote a chapter There's a chapter about that in my book,
The Nutrient Diet, as well.
The biggest chapter is on alcohol and how to drink things that make sense for

(34:47):
you and your body and what causes headaches and things like that from the different
things that are in alcohol,
like, for instance, tannins and...
The other things, the other chemicals that are in alcohol that can lead to headaches
and lethargy and things like that. But there's a huge connection.
And right now, there's this huge push, at least in the United States,

(35:09):
on people looking at prebiotics and probiotics for their whole body health,
not just their gut health, but for the whole body.
And that brings in the connection that you talked about, about the gut being
the second brain and the connection, the interstate, the highway between the
brain and the stomach or the gut and the brain and the skull or the cranium. Yeah, absolutely.

(35:31):
And the more we understand, the more we realize that there is so much impact
of what we eat and our whole body.
There is also this other piece, Dr. David, about ultra-processed food.
And I think there is this advocacy piece, actually, that that's why I speak a lot about it.
I actually even have a little book, a workbook called Quit Ultra-Processed Foods

(35:52):
Now. and it really helps people to transition over a six-week period.
Quit ultra-processed foods. Nice. Quit ultra-processed foods.
Okay. That's easy to remember.
Yeah. Quit ultra-processed foods now. With the now at the end.
And really, it's a kind and gentle guide for people to transition away from
being drawn to ultra-processed foods.

(36:15):
And I wrote in that, just a passing comment, because it's a short book,
that actually there is an advocacy piece here because there are,
I'm sure, also in the U.S.
And certainly in the U.K., there are areas of what I would consider food desert.
It's so hard to get fresh, whole food.

(36:36):
Exactly, exactly. So I, you know, and oftentimes the low-cost foods would be
the cookies, chips, the cakes, and it fails people, which is why you've got
all the fast food, you know. Exactly.
And of course, then within that would be chemicals that make people crave for them.

(36:56):
And dyes. Yeah, absolutely. So then I think there is this advocacy piece where
actually when people want to buy fruit or vegetables, it costs five times.
Yeah, it does. To buy a packaged product. Absolutely.
And I think the more people like us, we talk about this, we talk about the importance of this.
Hopefully you'll create that market demand where people go, actually,

(37:17):
yeah, all these places where currently are food deserts, we really need to get
fresh food out there and the people are going to
You know, I feel supported rather than feeling like they don't have a choice,
which I feel is one of the pieces to the story, actually.
Yeah, you know, and it's so funny because, you know, because of since COVID,

(37:39):
inflation and what I call more properly, you know, price gouging,
that things have gone up so much in price.
But, you know, and, you know, I don't have kids. I'm not married.
I'm single. I just have to feed me, myself and I.
And I try to, I cook a lot of, I bake a lot of fish. I do a lot of steamed vegetables
and I share them on Instagram and Facebook and things.

(38:02):
But it's, it's funny because I think, and this was probably the case before
COVID, but I think it's really highly magnified now.
But, you know, like a family of four could go to McDonald's and fill up for
the whole family, you know, for $20.
But if they went to a decent grocery store and bought healthy fish and vegetables

(38:24):
and fruits and legumes and things like that, it would cost $30 or $40.
So it's like a tax for being healthy.
Absolutely. And that's where we need to advocate for kind of widely accessible,
healthy, whole foods so that people have choice.
And this is the whole thing that drives me as well, giving people choice,

(38:47):
you know, giving people choice on their health based on them getting good quality information.
Absolutely, absolutely. So let me ask you another question. So this is another
big piece of yours, and I love this topic.
It's what I call a high potency term these days.
It's frequently used. And no matter how many times I bring it up,

(39:09):
I like to ask my guests about, you know, what it means, the definition of it, but also why it matters.
And that's the concept of mindfulness. I love the concept of mindfulness.
I talk to my clients about it. And I also think the connection,
at least for me, between mindfulness and insights, because in my opinion,

(39:31):
being mindful leads to insights.
And when you have lots of insights, that means you can do institute changes
and just kind of reboot the system. And so I love the concept of mindfulness
because to me, that leads to the insights.
And when you collect those insights, that can be the impetus,
the inertia that you need to make changes, whether they be lifestyle changes

(39:53):
or dietary, nutritional changes or any other kind of changes. Tell me about how you do.
See mindfulness and how it affects brain health
yeah thank you for that question yeah i feel
that there is a lot of opportunity for people to explore mindfulness and it's
not quite it's not just confined to the classic image where people see of somebody

(40:15):
sitting quietly to focus on their breath the meditation right it's not just
that there's so many ways that we can bring mindfulness
into what I call mindful moments throughout the day.
So I think I describe mindfulness as a quality of presence.
It's not just being present and noticing the quality that we bring to it and

(40:37):
that spaciousness that we could develop from it.
So in the context of brain health, I'm so excited to say that I'm in the middle
of doing a randomized control trial using mindfulness as a treatment for a neurological
condition called visual snow syndrome.
Visual snow syndrome is a rare condition. What is it called again? I'm sorry.

(40:59):
A visual snow syndrome. Visual snow syndrome.
Yeah, that's right. It's a condition where it's quite newly known over the recent
years, and I'm glad for really great work by charities such as the Visual Snow
Initiative who have really been advocating for people with this condition.
So what happens is that people with visual snow syndrome, get really bad disturbance of their vision.

(41:23):
It's like they're seeing snow, storm in their vision, like the static of an
out-of-scene television.
And they have a lot of other visual disturbances and other symptoms that come with it.
So we know that it's brain network dysregulation.
So the brain image on MRI, the structures are there, but it's the connections that's dysregulated.

(41:44):
So in 2019, a few years ago, I first came up with this idea,
year, this hypothesis that mindfulness, training of the brain.
Can treat visual snow syndrome and this
is based on the research from mindfulness about how
it could really change brain networks change the brain
structures and things so yeah i managed to

(42:07):
deliver this piece of research that showed that it can change the brain networks
was so exciting that it's the first time we managed to show that there's this
can be a treatment for this condition and now we are on doing a randomized control
trial and it's because of this kind of the the I deliver this research,
I help many people through the Mindfulness 8-Week Program,

(42:28):
and I'm so touched by the stories of people benefiting from this,
how their lives are changing, how their condition is improving,
which is why I have worked with the charities to get the mindfulness things out.
And that's why I wrote a book called Mindfulness for Brain Health,
which is designed to help people develop mindfulness practice,
not in terms of moment-to-moment awareness.

(42:51):
So let me read this quotation. I love by Dr. Victor Frankl. And it really sums
up why I love so much about mindfulness.
It's about spaciousness. So this is from Dr. Victor Frankl.
Between stimulus and response, there is a space.
In that space is our power to choose our response.

(43:13):
And in our response lies our growth and freedom.
It's about spaciousness and choice. There you go. I love that.
I love that. I love that. That is brilliant.
You know, and, you know, what that makes me think of is, and I'm just obviously
thinking off the cuff here, the right side of my brain and the left side of

(43:34):
my brain are connecting and coming up with hypotheses.
And so I know, for instance, I remember one of my favorite professors from medical school, Dr.
Brian Marioshi. He's friends with mine on Facebook. He was a brilliant,
he is a brilliant professor of physiology.
And I learned So much for him. And some of the stuff that he taught,
the connections or the insights didn't come until well after medical school.

(43:57):
But one of the big things that I learned from him, or we learned from him as
medical school students is how the heart works.
How the heart actually functions as both a pump and as a circuit.
And, you know, a lot of times and, you know, lay people look at the heart as
something that pumps blood,
but because of the technologies of EKGs and things like that,

(44:21):
we also realize that the heart has waves and it has a circuitry and it's electrical and things like that.
And one of the ways that helps me to kind of think about the brain in more dynamic
ways is thinking of the brain as both a pump and a circuit as well.
And so when you talk about that space, to me, that makes a lot of sense because

(44:42):
when you have things that operate as either a pump or as a circuit,
they need space or they overheat.
And that's true even with technology.
As they make computers smaller and smaller and smaller, they generate more and more heat.
And so one of the things that they had to do at one point with computers is

(45:02):
start building computers with fans inside to cool things out.
And so I kind of think of the same metaphor with the brain. The brain has waves.
It is a pump. It produces things. It's dynamic. It does a lot of things.
And I think when you've got a lot of activity going on, it makes sense that
you need space so some of the heat from all those processes can dissipate. Thank you.

(45:26):
Oh, I love your example there of the computer and the fan and the space. Yeah, absolutely.
And the other thing is also that the mindful practice is not just,
it's not like, oh, let me focus on my breath now. Let me concentrate.
There's a quality to it. Yes. There's a quality of the softness,
that curiosity, that friendliness, that kindness, non-judgment.

(45:52):
So it's actually a combination of various qualities that
we bring from moment to moment and that could start
off with little practices in the book in
my book i talk about i share kind of various ways
that people can start to settle with self-care approaches
and then allows more opportunities for mindful
moments to happen throughout the day and there

(46:14):
is also the opportunity to listen to some audio recordings some
guided body scan meditations some breath
meditations or mindfulness practices or
other types of practices that will help settle and
bring in the mindful moments and spaciousness exactly
as you say that spaciousness absolutely and you know that's one of the things

(46:35):
that i i stress with my clients whether they come in with adhd symptoms or depressive
symptoms or panic attacks or anxiety symptoms or ptsd or whatever I always say,
let's take a multi-pronged approach.
Let's look at your sleep. Let's look at your diet.
Let's look at your exercise.

(46:56):
Let's look at how you allow your brain to rest.
Let's look at whether you meditate or not, whether you use yoga,
whether you use sound. And so one of the big things that I do to help my clients
change is I actually give them audio products that help.
And a lot of those things, those products used binaural beats,

(47:17):
and they use a lot of auditory techniques and methods to help clients change.
And a lot of them swear by them, especially the ones that help with anxiety.
And so, you know, one of the big things that I've noticed is a lot of my clients
who have anxiety or report having severe anxiety or panic attacks,
they also have headaches.
And so one of the things that I've noticed is when they listen to the audios,

(47:40):
they actually have fewer and fewer anxiety attacks or panic attacks,
but they also have fewer headaches too.
And I think it's because of those sounds, that quietness, that stillness,
the rhythms that are built into the music that allow things to slow down and
they help people kind of get back to a regular rhythm and cycle.

(48:02):
Oh yeah, absolutely. Lots of benefits for these methods.
I also share a few other methods such as breath work and vagal nerve stimulation.
So the breath work method I love is an exhale-focused breath.
So if I were to describe it for your listeners, it's a case of I get people
to first start off with noticing how quickly they take to breathe in the full

(48:25):
breath, and then how quickly they take to breathe out.
And then after they have established that, they take a full breath in,
they count how long it takes, they hold their breath for that same duration
and then they breathe out.
So the same amount of air that they breathe in but they take a long time to
breathe out, to double the time. And then they hold it again at the end.

(48:46):
The holding is important to avoid hyperventilation.
So for example, if somebody takes four counts to breathe in,
they hold for four counts, they take seven to eight counts to breathe out and
then they hold for four counts.
And I tend to get people to repeat that in 10 cycles.
So they are just noticing the inner rhythm and managing the breath.

(49:10):
So that's a really nice method.
Another quick, short, sharp method would be they take a deep breath in and at
the top, after they've taken the deep breath in, they take one more breath in,
like a little sharp inhale, and then they do a long sigh out.
And they just repeat that for about five to ten times.
I must say that both would work and also there are other methods like the box

(49:34):
breeding method which is home
Breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, hold for four.
I tend to prefer the exhale-focused breath.
So that then it allows the parasympathetic part of the autonomic nervous system,
which is the rest and relax part, to just come up a little bit.
Because oftentimes when people are right in the midst of really severe pain,

(49:54):
their fight-or-flight response is really up and going.
So it's about balancing, so bringing that in.
And sometimes I'm bringing a humming. So I'm also a yoga teacher, as you may know.
Where the humming approach can lead to vibrations of the sternum,
which is the chest bone or other bones of the body. They kind of stimulate the vagus nerve.

(50:17):
So I talk about the vagus nerve that has connection to the gut.
It also has connections to the face and the chest.
So I may get people to hum, for example, or tap their chest bone.
Their collarbone, to tap certain parts just to create a little vibration.
Vibration and that also helps them to come to
feel into the moment with the breath and the body

(50:38):
and and that is quite a nice way to break when somebody's having pain or feeling
anxious those are quite good methods yeah i always tell my clients and i i teach
them relaxation methods particular methods that i like to use in my office are
the sedona method which which is a great
mindfulness. It's a release technique.

(50:59):
But I always tell my clients that breathing is the universal equalizer.
So breathing is the thing that allows your body to reset. It's the easiest thing
that you can do at any time in any place to kind of reset everything.
There's another course, though, that's similar because I don't do yoga,
but the people that I know who do yoga swear by it.
But there's a course, I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's a doctor, his name is Dr.

(51:23):
Chunyi Lin, and he's an internationally known doctor who speaks to doctors at
conferences throughout the United States and Europe and other places.
But he came up with this course called Spring Forest Qigong.
And I don't know if you've heard of it, but Spring Forest Qigong is a technique

(51:45):
that helps with a lot of medical conditions, and it's all based on breath work.
And it's also based off sound.
So when you said the thing about humming, it made me think about one of the
techniques that he uses in his course is where he has people to say, and other sounds.
And it's just amazing how people are able to heal using that course.

(52:11):
And like I said, his name is Dr.
Chunyi Lin and the course is called Spring Forest Qigong, But it's a great course
and it's based off that breathing technique and how breathing is a lever for
kind of resetting the connections within your body.
Absolutely. I love a lot of the ancient traditions that really brings,

(52:32):
when we start to look into, there's so much wisdom in a lot of the ancient traditions. Absolutely.
Whether it's like the Qigong or the Tai Chi, which is another variation of that, or yoga.
It's really, I think, a combination of mindful movement, because somebody is
really present with their body.
When they're moving, you're feeling the body, which is the whole Qigong or Tai

(52:54):
Chi or yoga approach when it's practiced in a mindful way.
And then you have the creation of sound and humming and you said the om thing
and there's probably more access to yoga studios where they may be doing what we call an om bath.
Have you experienced a sound bath with the om sound before? No.

(53:16):
Oh, it's quite something. It's quite something. It's almost like a choir of
students singing the om and as one about finished their om, then next person
take it up and next person take it up.
So it becomes like a wave of oms around the room.
And it's just like really so lovely because it's everybody's together.

(53:37):
And I suppose it's like the benefits of singing in a choir.
There are people who love their choirs and in the choir, they come together, they sing together.
Harmony. Social bond, the harmony, the vibrations.
Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot to be said for all those practices,
the combination of mindfulness and breath work, and then extending that to sounds

(54:01):
and music and such things. So powerful.
Absolutely. And there's another thing that I heard of.
I know a few people who actually have courses in it, but I learned about it
when I did my training in hypnosis and hypnotherapy and things like that.
And it's a technique from Hawaii that's called Huna. Huna, and it's all about

(54:23):
sounds, and it's really, really interesting.
You should check it out if you haven't already, but it's called Huna,
and it's about, it's, I wouldn't do it justice with the definition I provide,
but I know it's the use of sound to channel energy, and it's really,
really, really interesting.
So, Huna's a very interesting technique, too, in terms of channeling sound.

(54:46):
I love all these things. Oh, my God, I've learned so much today from you in
terms of brain health and a holistic approach to the brain and all the variables
and factors that affect the brain.
If you could give the listeners one solitary piece of advice about brain health

(55:08):
and mindfulness and all those kind of things in terms of what they can do,
what's the biggest thing that you'd say?
The biggest thing? Yeah. Okay.
Yeah, if there was one. I think the biggest thing is the mindset of be kind
to yourself and keep an open mind.
I love that. I love that. I love that.

(55:31):
Because, you know, and that makes so much sense because, you know,
everything that you said today about, you know, headaches and energy imbalance
and all those things are about pressures building up.
And pressures build up in closed systems. But when a system is open,
that allows for the relief of pressure.
So I love that. And I think that's a great unifying thing. Thank you so much for being a guest today.

(55:57):
I feel like we need another two or three episodes just to tap into all the things
that you hold expertise in and that you could share about a holistic integrative
approach to optimal brain health and about your brains program and about mindfulness
and all those kind of things. Thanks.
Dr. Wong, Dr. Swee Wong, can you please tell the listeners where they can find

(56:21):
out more information about some of your opinions and thoughts about brain health
and healthy approaches to getting rid of headaches and all those kinds of things?
Where can people find you? Tell us about your books and your presence online
and how they can book you and all those kinds of things.
Thank you so much. I appreciate that question. Thank you so much.
So I have written some books and it's all about empowering people with their

(56:46):
brain health and practical strategies.
I'm very practical and I like to give actionable steps.
So I have written a book called Mindfulness for Brain Health and it's an easy
to read and accessible way.
I've had a lot of lovely feedback and it's one of the most gifted books.
I heard it was a bestseller too.
Yeah, it was a bestseller. Right, they read it. Exactly, thank you, so kind.

(57:10):
So that was my very first book and it's very special to me. Congratulations. And I've written the-
Break Free from Migraines Naturally. Yes. And that is, I've had great feedback as well.
And it takes people through the different steps for them to action.
And if people want to work with me more closely on migraines,
I also have a migraine mentorship, which I'll mention more in a moment.

(57:31):
The other two books I have at the moment are workbooks. So workbooks for people
to just go through step by step.
And it's very accessible for them to reflect through and make little changes.
So one is called, I mentioned the Quit Ultra-Processed Foods Now.
So that book is about ultra-processed foods. And another book is Sleep Better to Thrive.

(57:53):
It's a step-by-step way for people to improve their quality of sleep and the
challenges that come with it.
And I'm so excited that I have a new book coming out towards the end of this year, around November.
It's called Sweet Spot for Brain Health. So it's about balancing the trigger
and all the energy pathways to that.

(58:13):
And so I'd love for your readers to find me. And they can find me on Amazon and other platforms.
But Amazon is probably the most accessible way if they search my name, Dr. Swee Wong.
I have a Thursday Tips newsletter for bite-sized brain health tips to thrive.
And it's a very short one-minute read. and I just distilled through some little

(58:38):
tips, three tips with one question at the end.
I've had really lovely feedback about that. So yeah. And what's the name of your newsletter?
Thursday Tips, because I send it out Thursday. Okay, Thursday Tips.
And how can they find that newsletter?
Thank you. It's on bit.ly, that's B-I-T dot L-Y, forward slash Dr.

(58:59):
Wong Brain Health. So that's D-R-W-O-N-G-P-R-A-I-N.
H-E-A-L-T-H, Dr. Wong Brain Health.
My website, which if people kind of find it, it didn't quite catch that, is drsuiwongmd.com.
So that's D-R-S-U-I-W-O-N-G-M-D.com.
I would love to stay connected with your listeners and signing up to my Thursday

(59:26):
tips, then they'll get alerted to my books as well and any promotions.
Absolutely. So let me make sure, because I'm going to get every single one of
your books and your book.
Kind Dr. David, thank you. No, no, oh my God. I need to learn a lot about this
stuff about brain health.
So I will be getting all of your books and I'll also be signing up for your newsletter.
Let me make sure that everybody's got the name, the exact website address.

(59:50):
So that's D as in David, R as in Rich, and then the letter S as in Sam, U as in Universe,
I as in Interstate, and then Wong, W as in world, O as in operator,
N as in Nancy, G as in gold, and then the letters MD, M as in money,

(01:00:10):
D as in dog.com. Is that correct?
That's right. That's my website. And if people sign up to my mailing list,
they'll get an email from me with the newsletter with all these links.
So it's bit.ly, that's B for Bravo, I for India, T for Tango,
.L for Lima, Y for Yankee, for what's left,

(01:00:32):
doctor, that's D for Denmark, R for Romeo, Wong, W for Whiskey,
O for Oscar, N for November, G for golf, brain, as in B, .
As in the brain, our brain, B-R-A-I-N, and health, as in our health and well-being,
H-E-A-L-T-H. So Dr. Wong Brain Health.
Awesome. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for being a guest today.

(01:00:54):
I've learned so much, and I cannot wait to dive into your books and to get your mailing list.
Thank you so much for being an expert guest on neurology and headaches today.
And I would love, love, love to have you back as a guest again on the show.
I'd love to come back. Thank you so much, Dr. David. I mean,
it's such a joyful conversation.
It's so wonderful that you have been advocating for all this,

(01:01:17):
for your listeners and the work that you do with your books and your clinical practice.
So it's such a privilege to be here. Thank you for this invitation.
Thank you so much. And with that, guys, we're going to leave.
Definitely check out Dr. Sui Wong's books.
And like I said, her first name is spelled S-U-I, but it's pronounced Swee,

(01:01:42):
like Swee as in the word sweet. So Dr.
Swee Wong, check out her books on Amazon.
I promise you they will benefit you. I'm going to get every single one of her
books and her workbooks, probably a few copies for my office and then to share
with my clients and everything.
I will We'll definitely be getting on her mailing list.
I would love to have Dr.

(01:02:03):
Wong to write an article of her choosing for my website that I can share there
with a link to her website so that people can get some of her knowledge and wisdom.
Thank you so much. And we will see you next time. Bye.
Bye. Thank you.

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Fresh Start with Dr. David - Season 3 - Episode 18 - Harvesting Wellness: Moving Beyond Migraine Headaches Naturally & Holistically with Expert Neurologist Dr. Sui Wong

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