Retail media is hot right now, but what is it exactly? And is it fab or fad?
Ger and Gordon have the questions. Paul Stafford of Superdrug has the answers.
Paul takes you deep into the workings of retail media, and explains how it differs from traditional marketing supports. There's lots of tech. There's lots of creative. And there's lots of potential.
Listen to the boys talk through what Paul has learned so far, and what lies ahead.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
This is Functional & Fabulous, the omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode, recorded live at the Laughter Lounge in Dublin at StudioForty9's Transformation (00:10):
Excellence in Ecommerce conference, Ger promotes a rival podcast...
Wait, no, that can't be right.
Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside Commerce.
I'm currently at 200...
(00:31):
In this episode, Gordon reviews some furniture...
They're very bouncy couches.
Our guest reviews Google Analytics...
Obviously, GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
Ger recites his latest poem...
A clean white room, with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign.
(00:52):
It's not very good.
...we'll cut that out.
Our guest provides the best clickbait quote ever...
They had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses.
And Gordon talks about his favorite restaurants...
My takeaways.
This episode of Functional & Fabulous is brought to you with pride by StudioForty9, retail ecommerce experts, omnichannel growth consultants and cut-through performance marketing specialists.
(01:21):
StudioForty9, where your digital retail success is built.
Good afternoon, everybody.
So you might be wondering what we're doing up here on couches, relaxing? Relax, Gordon.
They're very bouncy couches.
So some of you might be aware, myself and Gordon have a podcast called Functional & Fabulous.
(01:45):
It was started pretty much at this conference about two years ago when we had a bit of a fireside chat, and we thought that we were so good at it, we'd start a podcast and unleash yet another podcast onto the world.
Because there aren't enough already.
Not enough about ecommerce.
So we had a live one last year at this conference, and it's a real pleasure to kick off Season Two of Functional & Fabulous with a live podcast direct from the StudioForty9 Excellence in Ecommerce conference, here in Dublin.
(02:21):
And I'm delighted to welcome Paul Rogers, who traveled over from London today to join us on stage and in the hot seat.
Paul is one of the UK's most trusted and expert thought leaders in ecommerce.
His opinions and thinking are sought out by tech vendors, ecommerce platforms and merchants alike.
And the company he co-founded, Vervaunt, works with an enviable who's who of global brands, including Doc Martens, which I'm wearing in honour.
(02:52):
COS, which I'm not wearing.
Stussy, Represent, A.P.C., Timex, The Frankie Shop, Muji, Osprey, Fred Perry, Timex...
Honestly, the list goes on and on.
In Ireland, he's worked with our own iconic sports brand, O'Neill's.
I don't know, did you make it yet to an All-Ireland?
No, I haven't.
I spent a lot of time in Strabane, though.
(03:13):
Very good.
And Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside Commerce, currently at 230-odd episodes.
It deals with ecommerce strategy, customer experience and technology.
And he also hosts his own conference each year in London called Pulse, which is on at the end of May, and which I can highly recommend to anybody in the audience looking for a good ecommerce conference.
(03:36):
Paul, that's an awful lot.
It's great to have you here today.
Yeah, great.
Thanks so much for inviting me over as well.
I'm super impressed by this event.
And yeah, it's great.
So you're very welcome to the podcast, Paul.
And that was, like, a veritable who's who of the high street, plus one of the longest intros I think we've ever had to do.
You're very welcome.
(03:57):
So Paul, today's conference theme is transformation through clienteling.
I guess that's probably not a very well-known term.
What do you think of when we use that term?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I guess we obviously caught up last week about this talk.
And I said that I think we probably had slightly different definitions of clienteling.
(04:18):
So I would typically associate it more with the kind of luxury brands that we work with, who maybe do more kind of personal one-to-one-level kind of client relationship management, and kind of use that mechanism to try and generate more income from those customers who might be worth upwards of 100k a year, in some cases with some of our clients.
(04:44):
So yeah, I would maybe look at it more as kind of, like, a very personal relationship experience, I guess.
And it seems to me that there's a resurgence in people working on loyalty offerings in the last little while.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, definitely.
And again, this comes back to that same discussion.
(05:05):
I think I would say it's not just loyalty.
So our average client is maybe more of a premium fashion brand.
And I think we'll come on to first-party data later.
And I think it'll be a big topic for this discussion.
But I think there's a lot more kind of shifting towards general kind of membership and that maybe being, like, the foundation of a first-party data strategy, but also, like, community.
(05:28):
And then also a lot more kind of VIP that's more service-orientated and maybe a little bit more kind of surprise and delight-focused rather than, like, monetary points, that kind of stuff.
So really about moving beyond the idea of loyalty points.
Yeah, exactly.
And I still think, you know, you raised the point, because I think sometimes I'm a bit alien to, like, the rest of the world, where we do work with a lot of these brands.
(05:51):
And I do think, you know, points work.
And, you know, having these kind of tiered programs, they do work and people want to move between the tiers.
People want the rewards off the back of these programs.
But equally, I think if, you know, your business is a brand and, you know, your biggest selling point is the brand and, you know, the aesthetic and the way that you kind of communicate and position yourself.
(06:15):
Yeah, I think that's where it's more about trying to apply the same principles, but being less about discounting and, you know, monetary benefit, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think anybody that's had to deal with their CFO at any point is, loyalty points is just giving away money.
I think we probably all heard that at some point.
(06:35):
But what I'd be really interested if we could explore is how can we take some of these ideas from luxury and apply them to different verticals?
Be that pet food, be that health and wellness.
And what ideas can we take from an industry that's traditionally really, really good at doing this?
(06:58):
And how can we start to apply those to other industries or other verticals and apply them digitally?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So I think I mean, to be honest, I just look at it as I think some of the brands are like forced to be a bit more creative because they don't have the luxury of being able to like, yeah, I guess, discount or, yeah, give away kind of store credit or whatever else.
(07:22):
So yeah, I think a lot of the principles are probably more just about marketing.
And, you know, we've had clients that have done things like they've introduced a resale program that's only available to people in a certain... that have kind of got to a certain threshold. Or people that have kind of created bespoke products and you can only buy them if you've spent enough money or et cetera.
(07:44):
Or we've had, I worked with a glasses retailer that printed, like, lots of, like, high-demand local art on the whatever you call the glasses cleaner things.
And you'd only get them again, if you went into the store and you know, you're a kind of loyal customer.
And they're just some examples, like lots of people do events.
We work for Represent and they do lots of cool stuff for their VIPs offline.
(08:08):
So yeah, I think it's just taking that.
And yeah, trying to essentially create, like, exclusivity alongside some of the financial stuff for me, and maybe more like, yeah, brand-focused comms alongside it.
So that's, that's quite a lot.
There's tons of ideas there.
I think, like, you've just got, I think you've just given everybody, like, eight or 10 ideas just right off the cuff.
(08:30):
So if you're sitting listening to this, and you're thinking, I've got to do something with loyalty, and the CFO is going to say, no, you can't do points.
Where would you start?
What would be like, what would be the advice that you would give to people of, like, okay, I want to do this.
But what's the starting point?
Absolutely.
Yes, I think this has been touched on in a number of the talks this morning.
(08:53):
I've been really impressed with the content from your team in particular.
And I think I've tried not to talk about it intentionally so far, but I think we would naturally come on to it with this topic.
So I think the way the world's going, everyone is trying to capture as much first-party data as possible.
And also with all of the privacy changes, there's a lot of benefits from a tracking perspective, amongst other things, from a customer building an account and having a logged in experience so that you can track against a customer.
(09:23):
And also you can do more kind of within the theme and whatever else.
So I think the first thing for me that loads of our clients are doing right now, and it's by far the number one item on all of the roadmaps that we have, is basically building a proper account proposition.
And I can't remember the name of the brand that was used with your Epic solution earlier.
(09:48):
But that's a really good example.
And another one that I use regularly is Salomon, the footwear brand.
And if you go on their site, they've got the notification icon, which was also cited.
And then they've built what is essentially a loyalty program.
But the foundation level is just an account, essentially.
And you get free shipping and free returns as a result of building an account.
(10:10):
And then as part of that process, they're capturing more data.
So things like gender, interests, et cetera.
And then that will all be pushed into a CRM or a CDP.
And J.Lindberg is another really good example.
And they capture things like sizing as well.
And then the next phase could then be to surface that on site as you're shopping, as you're presenting product to the customer, et cetera.
(10:34):
But essentially, building an account, you have to have an account in almost all instances and in Shopify in order to opt into a loyalty program.
So I think it's an app.
And obviously, you have the first-party data benefit and the tracking benefits.
I think it's a no brainer to really push that new account proposition, new account experience and try and increase the percentage of users that essentially, you know who they are and you know what they're doing.
(11:02):
And then also, it gives you an opportunity to present different options through the experience and just collect more and more data and yet know as much as you need to about around your customers.
Yeah, I love the example on the Salomon website where the Wayfinders are also being used to collect information almost like a quiz, but it's part of a very natural progression where you're being asked, what kind of shoe are you interested in?
(11:26):
And you choose the type of shoe and then you choose, you know, is it going to be a shoe or a boot and so on.
And it's capturing that information and then using that to surface sizing and correct sizes and so on through the rest of the experience.
Exactly.
And I think the thing that I like about that is it's just in context within, like, a core journey, whereas particularly in, like, cosmetics and beauty, you get a lot of, like, isolated quiz experiences, and they work really well and you can capture great data, you know, and it's a great mechanism for getting an email address or an account or whatever else.
(11:58):
But I think this is more natural.
And if you're paying for traffic, you don't want the friction of pushing people for an account, you know, there's every chance they might abandon, et cetera, or through that experience.
So, yeah, I really like that as well.
And interior defines another really good example where, if you go through any non-purchase conversion, so if you go and request a brochure or, you know, set up, like, an interior, what do you call it?
(12:27):
Interior, like basically a consultation.
Yeah.
It asks you different questions.
It'll ask you, like, initially it'll be, like, what about the project?
And then it'll ask you about, like, the scope of, like, what products you might be interested in.
And all of that, again, is just to push the data into the CRM or CDP.
And I personally think nowadays, like, most brands should be doing this with interest and sizing, just because you're going to be in a much better position from a CRM perspective and onsite perspective.
(12:56):
I think nowadays it's easier than ever to capture that sort of information in Shopify now with the metafields on customer profiles.
You can capture enormous amounts of different types of information and get really detailed and collected as the customer goes along in a more subtle way.
(13:16):
I think Shopify is also making it incredibly easy to get customers to log in.
You know, the new customer account section is basically a one-time passcode.
All you need is your email address.
All of your orders are already collected together.
Where do you see that kind of customer account area for Shopify?
Where do you see that going?
Yeah, I think, I mean, my view on Shopify overall, so I'd say our company is essentially platform agnostic, but because of the nature of the brands we work with, we're very Shopify heavy.
(13:45):
And over the last year, over the last kind of 10 years, I've done a lot of, like, platform valuation stuff, but I've always been super pro-Shopify.
And I think overall their, like, vision and where they're going is, like, no one's close to them in terms of what they're trying to achieve and where they sit in the market.
They're almost like a Windows or an operating system now.
(14:05):
But I think they're in a very good position to make some big moves.
And I think one of the big moves will be essentially them getting more first-party data and them owning the account in a similar way to Shop Pay.
So I think there'll be more things like that in the Shopify ecosystem.
And I think it will benefit the end consumer because, you know, if you're logged in on one Shopify account, you'll be logged in on another, or at least you'll get the prompt, or at least there'll be some level of like, yeah, mechanism there that will support the customer, but also Shopify.
(14:39):
Yeah.
So I think that's kind of where I see it going.
It would be great if, if, if they stepped in as the, the platform provider that helps retailers fix the, um, the cookie-less first-party data conundrum.
Yeah.
And I think, like, we all need a, we all need some help with that, because it's quite complex to navigate when you think about all of the other things that are on a head of ecommerce, or a ecommerce director and ecommerce manager's plate, where they're dealing with everything from operations through to, to marketing.
(15:13):
So I, I would love to see that if Shopify are listening.
I think they're going...
I think they're naturally going that way, anyway.
And I also think that all, I think all of the competitors that I speak to, Shopify, like, you know, they're focusing on a little feature that they have available that Shopify doesn't, or the fact that they're a bit more flexible when it comes to payments, but realistically, Shopify is, like, slowly becoming, like, a top five first-party data owner in the world for commerce.
(15:41):
And you know, they're offering, if you've got pars and social checkout, and obviously checkout and whatever other channel you've got through Shopify, you have already built, like, a true unified view of the customer and no one else is providing that.
And I think, yeah, I think they're leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else from a data perspective.
(16:03):
I think that's, like, a really interesting thing to, just to highlight.
And, you know, sometimes we're in the weeds when we're operating ecommerce sites, and just to step away for a little bit and, and, and have a look at where it's going.
The amount of data that Shopify has also, makes available to retailers.
I've, I've regularly shown retailers the customer segmentation options that are available in the backend of Shopify.
(16:27):
And it's fascinating to see what you can pull as information out of those platforms, but you've mentioned unified commerce and I guess it's an interesting thing.
I'm not sure how many people have heard of the term unified commerce yet?
Hands up? Yeah, so the Shopify people have heard about it...
The people who are selling it...
Do you want to just take us through that a little bit?
(16:52):
Because it's interesting to just pause on that for a moment as we're talking about all of these.
Yeah.
So I think, I think it was Gartner that initially coined the term and Shopify use it a lot.
But essentially, it's just having a unified view of the customer and your data.
And I do, I think for a long time it was an OV, or it was not for a long time - for a short time.
(17:12):
It's been a bit of a buzzword and a lot of, kind of combined technologies will go out to market and offer that.
But Shopify does genuinely offer that with, like, no code essentially.
So, and I think you talked about segmentation, and I think the other data that will be built up within Shopify now is they're starting to build browsing into that as well, natively, which will be massive.
(17:36):
And, you know, last year, particularly Q1, Q2 last year, a lot of our bigger clients were, like, saying, we need a CDP, you know, we need it urgently.
And they didn't really need a CDP, but they were saying they did.
Or at least they thought they did.
And now with Shopify, you're not far off not needing a CDP.
And actually, the role of a lot of the other systems around Shopify is, is going to...
(17:59):
It's an interesting thing because we were being asked in the last, let's say half a year to a year, to start pushing data from outside of Shopify into Shopify.
So pause data, ERP data and pushing that into Shopify, because it's nearly the most useful place to have those.
And when it, when you think about that unified ecommerce or unified commerce idea, it's nearly that one single source of truth for all of your data that is updated in real time.
(18:24):
It is the hub for, for data gathers in all of the rest of the information.
And you can nearly see that, that let's say positioning, I guess, of, of Shopify in that space, which is a hundred percent.
And I think that's something that they've obviously been working on for a long time.
But it's really, like, come to fruition recently.
And I think the other thing right now, it's so easy to get data out of Shopify, like no, very few other systems in the world are as easy to get data out of than Shopify.
(18:53):
So that all of our team, you know, we use super metrics, we use various other, like, low-code tools, or even just pull data out of the APIs themselves.
And I think, yeah, that's just kind of driving more people to, yeah, put that data in Shopify.
I think the other big thing that is like a bit of an elephant in the room, not that many people are talking about because they still, like, maybe they don't know if it's the right thing to do, but obviously GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
(19:20):
And I think Shopify have, like, gradually improved their, like, traffic reporting, their marketing reporting, et cetera.
And to be honest, I think a lot of our customers now are actually using Shopify's analytics instead of GA4 in, like, 50, 60, 70% of, like, reports and you know, data they actually need.
(19:40):
And I think if that gets stronger as well, again, it's just, like, more data for Shopify, obviously, but also they're just creating a much broader reason to use Shopify.
So you just need the data in the morning really quickly.
Like, you just need your reports.
You need to be able to read your reports quickly.
You need your top-level metrics, grab those out of Shopify.
You don't need to go...
Yeah.
(20:02):
...GA4 and spend the rest of the day dealing with Meta.
Um, do you have problems with Meta?
I'm really sore about Meta at the moment.
To go back to the loyalty side of things, and that kind of community building, how important do you think it is to, to kind of approach that with a joined up thinking attitude where you brand the, the loyalty that you're going to do, or the proposition you have around your customers and community?
(20:31):
I think it's massive.
Yeah.
I think it's obviously a much more, it's something that a customer can kind of buy into more, it's something that will resonate more with them.
Yeah, I think a lot of the best examples of loyalty programs have, like, its own brand.
So, like, Represent I've been using a lot as an example recently, just because they're quite present at the moment.
(20:51):
And a lot of people talk about that community, but yeah, so they've got prestige, and so many of their customers, you know, we'll talk about prestige without even mentioning Represent.
And I think that goes a long way.
But to be honest, because of this first-party data shift, that kind of membership route I mentioned as well, like, both loyalty and the membership piece, like, all the biggest brands in the world are doing right now.
(21:15):
Like, like you look at Nike, you look at Adidas, you've got Addy club.
I forgot what the Nike one's called.
Yeah.
Salomon is S/PLUS.
But I think it's interesting.
It's nearly a brand, like a brand within a brand.
Out on its own in its own right.
You know, you've got the, the, some of the nice, the ones that come to mind really, like, the e.l.f. Beauty Squad.
And we, we talked with an Irish retailer at one time who mentioned that when they had a loyalty program, they just called it the Loyalty Program.
(21:41):
Nobody used it, and then they renamed it the A-list, and then people started using it.
And you know, that, that kind of thing. On that as a kind of, let's say, a next logical extension...
Can you talk to us a little bit about mobile apps and how you see those?
We get asked quite regularly, and even this morning somebody in the room here was talking about a mobile app they're about to develop.
(22:04):
I always feel like it's not enough to have just your catalogue in an app.
You have to have an angle.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Yeah, completely agree.
I think if you were to go down the route of essentially, because within Shopify, it's very easy to introduce a native app.
There's a few different vendors that have reduced the barrier to entry and they can inherit bits of your theme and, you know, launch something super quickly.
(22:30):
But I think it's a short-term solution.
I think it's an additional engagement point, maybe short-term.
But I personally think it kind of cheapens your brand a bit because it's very transactional.
There's no real reason for that customer to engage.
You're just kind of sending the same messages via different channels.
Whereas I think, so I've, I feel like two, three years ago, all of our clients were looking at native apps.
(22:55):
And then it died off, and then this year it's been massive.
So a lot of our biggest clients are, have recently released apps and those that haven't are working on it now.
And I think we always say you have to have a reason to go to the app that isn't transactional.
And pretty much all of our clients are building that in.
(23:16):
So loyalty is part of it.
So for some of our clients, like the loyalty program will be managed within the app.
And a lot of the kind of content that's built into that will be done by the app.
We've got a client that's doing resale only through the app.
So they've got a bit of a cult following and they did resale once and they didn't manage it very well.
(23:37):
So they're kind of doing it through the app and then gradually releasing product through the tiers so that they can control it.
We've got a client that does clienteling through the app.
So they do, so that's Totem.
So they do all of their kind of store, like, VIP appointments, like events, all of the multichannel stuff through the app.
(23:59):
And that's a really nice way to do it.
We've had clients do, like, advanced sizing stuff through the app.
But yeah, from my perspective, I personally think if you do a native app, you have to invest in something that engages the customer semi-regularly and gives them a reason to have that native app experience, be that editorial, loyalty, a game, like, whatever - something that isn't transactional.
(24:24):
So if an app's on your list, the first question is why, why are you going to do this over and above?
And then the next question is what are those things and what's the priority order you're going to put them in?
One other question is, you know, does it work?
Do you think it's... obviously an app is expensive to produce and you're putting a lot of thought and effort and time into bringing it to fruition.
(24:47):
Do you see it working for people?
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, yeah, all of our clients have, kind of focused on the data and it's pretty much always worked.
I think the ones that haven't have always been transactional.
And even then, there is an argument that it works just in terms of push notifications, being like a real high-engagement channel and, you know, people still being able to be brought back by the app that, yeah, it might not be incremental, but it could be a better experience and it could convert better, et cetera.
(25:16):
But yeah, so Represent is a really good example.
They released their app a little while ago, so maybe like three, four months ago and it's been, yeah, they've seen decent incremental growth of the, I was talking to Liverpool football club recently.
They were talking about their app that's now transactional and they've seen incremental benefit.
And, yeah, I've, everyone that I've spoke to that has done it properly.
(25:38):
And like you say, had a reason beyond just, yeah, transacting has pretty much always found it to be an effective channel for re-engaging customers.
But I do think it is a, a retention channel or a re-engagement channel, not a new customer acquisition channel.
When we spoke previously, Gordon, you had this nice kind of image of the sales person with their little black book.
(26:04):
You know, the, the guy who knows all the customers, he knows their sizes, he's rolled out at certain times of the year to get in contact and drum up a bit of business.
Do you see kind of a digital variation on that in terms of, you know, even the clienteling or the engaging with customers?
Yeah, I think most of the brands of ours that do that is all done through WhatsApp.
(26:26):
For whatever reason, we have had some clients try and do it for a native app, but yeah, the ones that have done it most effectively...
And I always remember I worked for, with a, like, really high-end sunglasses retailer, and they had one person that just sat on WhatsApp and Facebook chatting to, like...
That's a one-to-one and not a broadcast.
(26:46):
Very one-to-one.
Yeah, totally one-to-one.
And yeah, they would have, they had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses and I was, like, couldn't believe it.
But, but yeah, essentially this person had almost, like, a target, but it was, it was kind of half seen as, like, just giving a good experience, but she pretty much had a sales target, to be fair.
And she was very non-commercial, but yeah.
(27:09):
And I think to be honest, a lot of the top fashion brands do that.
I'm pretty sure Burberry do the same.
They do a lot of their clienteling via WhatsApp.
And yeah, it's designed to feel very personal.
A lot of it's more around kind of convenience and, you know, like subtly telling a customer if you've got a new item that might be similar to previous preferences, all that kind of stuff.
(27:32):
And there's probably a CRM behind it, but it just has to feel very personal.
Do you see, you know, the generation of, let's say a, a draft order where, like, that person with a little black book would effectively put this season's look together for a VIP customer and, you know, send them the link to the checkout and say, here you go, this is what we've picked for you.
(27:53):
And we think this will really work.
Do you see that kind of...?
I think, I see a lot of the, these people using draft orders, but it's probably like, I think the other thing is like, you know, they'll do calls or they'll send lots of links and then, you know, they'll get opinions and then they'll send stuff and they'll return it, et cetera.
So yeah, I think draft orders are super useful for this and loads of our clients use it for exactly that.
(28:17):
The other thing that I would say that a few of our clients do, which is slightly off-topic, but it's the same thing.
So I don't know, one, another big trend we've seen recently is, like, concierge delivery services and, like, last-mile delivery services.
So our average client top two cities would be London and New York.
And a lot of our clients now use, like, a Harper Concierge, a Quiver, a TOSHI - like these services allow basically one-hour delivery slots.
(28:46):
Or like with Harper, they have, like, a qualified, like concierge, I guess, like, go into the house, talk through all the styling options.
And I know they've got a lot of data around that kind of, like, doubling order value and, like, increasing retention metrics massively.
But that's another one, like, along these lines, I feel like that we have...
(29:09):
We have a retailer in the room here, Louis Copeland, who is very well known for Louis Copeland himself arriving on the doorstep and handing over the ultimate in concierge.
But it's such a great marketing ploy as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, it's at that level, it's still very people-heavy, though.
You still have your person managing WhatsApp.
(29:29):
Now it's totally worth doing if it's worth half a mil, you can totally justify that cost.
But how, how would you see that?
Like a, I suppose a, not a watered down, but an, a scalable automatable version of that where you've maybe got 10,000 customers that you want to deliver something to, could you see that working or, or being, being implemented in the future?
(29:56):
Definitely.
So, yeah, I mean, we have loads of clients that do it.
It's more that it's just, they've got something storing the value of the customer, be that the CRM or loyalty platform or Shopify or whatever else.
And then they've just got very specific CRM programs that are triggered based on a new benefit or, you know, they'll make sure that they send campaigns with a certain frequency so that they're kind of re-engaging these customers, but the messaging is not promotional.
(30:24):
It's, like, entirely, like, convenience- or service-orientated.
But yeah, I think a lot of our clients have, yeah, quite granular, like VIP programs for CRM.
We saw a really nice demo from Gorgias of the Gorgias Convert, which Neil might talk about later on, I'm not sure.
But no, he says, but you are now, but, it's, it allows you down at scale to trigger, um, let's say interactions with customers on the basis of what they're actually doing on the site.
(30:56):
So you can really, you know, they might be looking at a product.
They might've gone and switched between two or three products and you can start to engage with them at the point where you think that they're, they're ready to convert and they might have some questions.
And I just kind of a question I'm always curious about, I know, Gordon, you have an opinion on this, but I always wonder about the value and this kind of slightly off-topic of extending your customer service hours and having people manning the customer service like until, until later in the evenings, you know, until nine or 10 o'clock at night.
(31:24):
Do you, do you know businesses doing that and do you know whether or not they find it valuable?
To be honest,
I'd say this is probably slightly outside of my wheelhouse.
We've definitely got clients that do it and, you know, that invest in out-of-hours services.
And there's, yeah, a few companies that our clients have used, but I feel that I wouldn't know the tangible value, if you see what I mean?
(31:45):
Gordon, you'd have an opinion, do you?
You might.
If people are shopping in the evening, and your peak time is 7pm to maybe 10pm, then you should be building your service proposition around being able to help them during that time, which is really where that comes from.
It's common sense, but it's a bit more difficult to, to execute. But, like, business doesn't always happen online between the hours of 9am and 5.30pm, Monday to Friday.
(32:15):
I think this is an interesting one because I think it depends on, I guess the value, like the order value as well.
Because I would say a lot of our fashion clients would man live chat between, like, peak hours UK and US, for example.
But I feel like some of the higher-volume brands I've worked with are now, like, really trying to push AI on that side.
(32:38):
So maybe they'll still have resources available, but they're really trying to, like, reduce the hours that go into it for, like, Sienna or some of the other solutions out there.
We nearly got through a whole podcast without mentioning AI.
I was bursting to sneak in with this.
I saw a really mischievous presentation from a data insights guy from John Lewis one time, who, who kind of declared somewhat in a sexist manner, but it was, like, basically John Lewis figured out that 9.21pm was the time when their most valuable customer, a woman, uh, would come onto the site.
(33:15):
And his point was, like, at 9.21pm, if you see your partner or wife pick up her phone, you know that's the time to distract her.
Yeah.
But I couldn't let us go without having a quick chat about your app.
Census.
Yeah.
So you guys even got into the app building for Shopify end of things there last year, I think it was.
(33:38):
I heard some great things about the feedback app.
Do you want to just...
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, it must've been maybe a couple of years ago we released the app.
So it's essentially a survey that sits on the order confirmation page that can ask different questions to different customers, based on variables.
So the average implementation would probably have three questions.
(33:58):
First one would be, where did you first see or hear about the brand, which you then might push into your reporting tool or wherever else you want that data.
Second question would typically be more focused on the customer.
So it might be like what age range they're in.
It might be whether it's a gift or self purchase.
And those questions might then be pushed into your CRM system or your email platform.
(34:22):
And then the, on top of that, we'd then have, like, feedback questions.
So that would be designed to pull out, like, any friction points, issues with carrier options, like localisation, all of that kind of stuff.
And then you would use that data to then, I guess, push things into your backlog or, you know, push it to your customer service team.
But the one thing I would say is we introduced it more for the attribution side, but actually now most people are using it to get more insight into the customer.
(34:51):
And, you know, like what other brands they buy, like, you know, where else they buy the product, all that kind of stuff.
And then they push it into a Klaviyo or a Metria or whatever else and use it more from a marketing perspective.
Yeah.
I've noticed things like businesses when there's a, when a gift message is being chosen, for example, after the transaction has gone through and the order has been made, they say, we noticed you bought a gift today.
(35:14):
Was that for a birthday?
And, you know, that sort of thing.
And then storing that information to, to help.
Yeah.
We actually haven't done that, but we should, because it can do that.
It's just, I've never seen a client do it.
Yeah.
But I really like the, you know, because just after the transaction is made, I think there's great opportunities for a couple of things.
You know, I, I really feel when people are buying online, there's, there's a bit of tension and they're trying to get, you know, it's a bit of unnatural tension when they're trying to get through the checkout and they're, they're very focused on, on, on getting their order in some cases.
(35:43):
And then there is like a natural release of tension once the order has gone through and people sometimes are kind of willing and ready to offer additional information or also buy additional things.
It's the, it's really the time where you kind of have that bit of remorse where you're like, oh, maybe I should have got that extra, you know, that product.
And do you think like things like that, like post sale absence, you know.
(36:07):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I completely agree with you.
I've always said the order confirmation page is like the most underutilised page in e-comm.
And I think, you know, even looking at the survey, which averages like 25, 30% completion rate people are, you know, still engaged on that page.
And we have had clients that have done post-purchase recommendations.
(36:27):
The issue is usually more of the kind of back office side, which hopefully your solution can help with.
But the, yeah, essentially, yeah, we have had clients that have, you know, added significant revenue usually by attaching some level of promotion.
So if you've bought, maybe a t-shirt offering a discount on the second one, or, you know, saying it's not too late to add the bundle items, et cetera.
(36:52):
But yeah, they definitely work and there's lots of data online around how important they can be.
Like a lot of the DTC brands did really well through COVID with those types of things.
I think it's so interesting.
Years ago, I remember thinking that ecommerce was very bizarre in a way where we were nearly setting up a clean white room, with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign, you know, which is not at all how people deal with, you know, even after the sale, um, inside and, you know, you have the smile.
(37:21):
Thank you.
Would you like to send us a receipt and all that kind of thing?
Um, I'm going to take a very quick opportunity.
I don't know if we have a roaming mic, but is anybody... seeing as we have an audience in front of us...
Does anybody have a question that they'd like to put to us up here?
Any brave souls?
That came out of left field.
I was not expecting that.
(37:43):
I was like, I know we're in front of an audience. So usually I pick on James Byrne in these situations, but I'm not going to do that today, James.
But does anybody have a quick question that they'd like to ask?
No? Very good, we'll cut that out...
Okay.
One thing I was going to say, so you talked about Gorgias Convert, which obviously proactively communicates with a customer based on variables.
(38:10):
One thing we talked about before that we're in the process of testing across a lot of clients is, um, so your colleague talked about the notification icon, like capturing attention earlier.
And I said about that being Salomon's example, but one thing we're testing is the notification icon and the header.
And basically using that to communicate with customers based on variables.
(38:31):
So a similar thing, but it's more like capturing the attention.
And then if someone's been on the site before, you might show them products that they hadn't viewed.
You might, someone we work with is a fashion brand called The Frankie Shop.
They promote, so they're, like, latest store new editorial content and then, like, new in this week.
Yeah.
And basically that is one, if you do build in some of this first-party data stuff, segmentation stuff, it is an opportunity to communicate with a customer based on what you know.
(38:59):
So if they've got something in the basket, you can communicate other items, you know, any promotions that are relevant, any new products since their last visit.
Like, I do think that's a really clever mechanism for communicating with a customer for both upselling and just generally getting them to do what you want.
Absolutely.
And I love it because it's, it's also kind of, it's native to how people are using the devices.
(39:21):
You know, it is a little bit cross, you know, cross-functional in some ways.
But it kind of thinks a little bit outside the box while still being very obviously intuitive for a customer that's using the website.
And I really liked those, those solutions like the, that Salomon one again with the Wayfinder, I think is genius because it's what the customer is doing anyway.
And you're really helping them to, to understand what the product offering is on the site.
(39:45):
Yeah.
I think like some really good advice today.
And if I've been listening properly, my takeaways are, like, number one, build your customer account out.
Yeah.
Number two, think about how you collect first-party data in a way that feels natural and intuitive.
Number three, build out a proposition that adds real value beyond points.
(40:07):
Yeah.
And then number four, try and personalise communications as they're going out, and then add a bit of notification anxiety on top of it for customers to click on.
I love your, I love your summarising, Gordon.
It's always great.
On that note, thanks a million, Paul.
It's been great to have you here.
We really appreciate you coming over today.
Give a round of applause to Paul, please.
(40:33):
You've been listening to Functional & Fabulous, with Gerard Keohane and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast, or about StudioForty9 and Omnichannel Stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie. The show was produced by Roger Overall.
This is Functional & Fabulous, the omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode, recorded live at the Laughter Lounge in Dublin at StudioForty9's Transformation (00:10):
Excellence in Ecommerce conference, Ger promotes a rival podcast...
Wait, no, that can't be right.
Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside Commerce.
I'm currently at 200...
(00:31):
In this episode, Gordon reviews some furniture...
They're very bouncy couches.
Our guest reviews Google Analytics...
Obviously, GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
Ger recites his latest poem...
A clean white room, with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign.
(00:52):
It's not very good.
...we'll cut that out.
Our guest provides the best clickbait quote ever...
They had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses.
And Gordon talks about his favorite restaurants...
My takeaways.
This episode of Functional & Fabulous is brought to you with pride by StudioForty9, retail ecommerce experts, omnichannel growth consultants and cut-through performance marketing specialists.
(01:21):
StudioForty9, where your digital retail success is built.
Good afternoon, everybody.
So you might be wondering what we're doing up here on couches, relaxing? Relax, Gordon.
They're very bouncy couches.
So some of you might be aware, myself and Gordon have a podcast called Functional & Fabulous.
(01:45):
It was started pretty much at this conference about two years ago when we had a bit of a fireside chat, and we thought that we were so good at it, we'd start a podcast and unleash yet another podcast onto the world.
Because there aren't enough already.
Not enough about ecommerce.
So we had a live one last year at this conference, and it's a real pleasure to kick off Season Two of Functional & Fabulous with a live podcast direct from the StudioForty9 Excellence in Ecommerce conference, here in Dublin.
(02:21):
And I'm delighted to welcome Paul Rogers, who traveled over from London today to join us on stage and in the hot seat.
Paul is one of the UK's most trusted and expert thought leaders in ecommerce.
His opinions and thinking are sought out by tech vendors, ecommerce platforms and merchants alike.
And the company he co-founded, Vervaunt, works with an enviable who's who of global brands, including Doc Martens, which I'm wearing in honour.
(02:52):
COS, which I'm not wearing.
Stussy, Represent, A.P.C., Timex, The Frankie Shop, Muji, Osprey, Fred Perry, Timex...
Honestly, the list goes on and on.
In Ireland, he's worked with our own iconic sports brand, O'Neill's.
I don't know, did you make it yet to an All-Ireland?
No, I haven't.
I spent a lot of time in Strabane, though.
(03:13):
Very good.
And Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside Commerce, currently at 230-odd episodes.
It deals with ecommerce strategy, customer experience and technology.
And he also hosts his own conference each year in London called Pulse, which is on at the end of May, and which I can highly recommend to anybody in the audience looking for a good ecommerce conference.
(03:36):
Paul, that's an awful lot.
It's great to have you here today.
Yeah, great.
Thanks so much for inviting me over as well.
I'm super impressed by this event.
And yeah, it's great.
So you're very welcome to the podcast, Paul.
And that was, like, a veritable who's who of the high street, plus one of the longest intros I think we've ever had to do.
You're very welcome.
(03:57):
So Paul, today's conference theme is transformation through clienteling.
I guess that's probably not a very well-known term.
What do you think of when we use that term?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I guess we obviously caught up last week about this talk.
And I said that I think we probably had slightly different definitions of clienteling.
(04:18):
So I would typically associate it more with the kind of luxury brands that we work with, who maybe do more kind of personal one-to-one-level kind of client relationship management, and kind of use that mechanism to try and generate more income from those customers who might be worth upwards of 100k a year, in some cases with some of our clients.
(04:44):
So yeah, I would maybe look at it more as kind of, like, a very personal relationship experience, I guess.
And it seems to me that there's a resurgence in people working on loyalty offerings in the last little while.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, definitely.
And again, this comes back to that same discussion.
(05:05):
I think I would say it's not just loyalty.
So our average client is maybe more of a premium fashion brand.
And I think we'll come on to first-party data later.
And I think it'll be a big topic for this discussion.
But I think there's a lot more kind of shifting towards general kind of membership and that maybe being, like, the foundation of a first-party data strategy, but also, like, community.
(05:28):
And then also a lot more kind of VIP that's more service-orientated and maybe a little bit more kind of surprise and delight-focused rather than, like, monetary points, that kind of stuff.
So really about moving beyond the idea of loyalty points.
Yeah, exactly.
And I still think, you know, you raised the point, because I think sometimes I'm a bit alien to, like, the rest of the world, where we do work with a lot of these brands.
(05:51):
And I do think, you know, points work.
And, you know, having these kind of tiered programs, they do work and people want to move between the tiers.
People want the rewards off the back of these programs.
But equally, I think if, you know, your business is a brand and, you know, your biggest selling point is the brand and, you know, the aesthetic and the way that you kind of communicate and position yourself.
(06:15):
Yeah, I think that's where it's more about trying to apply the same principles, but being less about discounting and, you know, monetary benefit, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think anybody that's had to deal with their CFO at any point is, loyalty points is just giving away money.
I think we probably all heard that at some point.
(06:35):
But what I'd be really interested if we could explore is how can we take some of these ideas from luxury and apply them to different verticals?
Be that pet food, be that health and wellness.
And what ideas can we take from an industry that's traditionally really, really good at doing this?
(06:58):
And how can we start to apply those to other industries or other verticals and apply them digitally?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So I think I mean, to be honest, I just look at it as I think some of the brands are like forced to be a bit more creative because they don't have the luxury of being able to like, yeah, I guess, discount or, yeah, give away kind of store credit or whatever else.
(07:22):
So yeah, I think a lot of the principles are probably more just about marketing.
And, you know, we've had clients that have done things like they've introduced a resale program that's only available to people in a certain... that have kind of got to a certain threshold. Or people that have kind of created bespoke products and you can only buy them if you've spent enough money or et cetera.
(07:44):
Or we've had, I worked with a glasses retailer that printed, like, lots of, like, high-demand local art on the whatever you call the glasses cleaner things.
And you'd only get them again, if you went into the store and you know, you're a kind of loyal customer.
And they're just some examples, like lots of people do events.
We work for Represent and they do lots of cool stuff for their VIPs offline.
(08:08):
So yeah, I think it's just taking that.
And yeah, trying to essentially create, like, exclusivity alongside some of the financial stuff for me, and maybe more like, yeah, brand-focused comms alongside it.
So that's, that's quite a lot.
There's tons of ideas there.
I think, like, you've just got, I think you've just given everybody, like, eight or 10 ideas just right off the cuff.
(08:30):
So if you're sitting listening to this, and you're thinking, I've got to do something with loyalty, and the CFO is going to say, no, you can't do points.
Where would you start?
What would be like, what would be the advice that you would give to people of, like, okay, I want to do this.
But what's the starting point?
Absolutely.
Yes, I think this has been touched on in a number of the talks this morning.
(08:53):
I've been really impressed with the content from your team in particular.
And I think I've tried not to talk about it intentionally so far, but I think we would naturally come on to it with this topic.
So I think the way the world's going, everyone is trying to capture as much first-party data as possible.
And also with all of the privacy changes, there's a lot of benefits from a tracking perspective, amongst other things, from a customer building an account and having a logged in experience so that you can track against a customer.
(09:23):
And also you can do more kind of within the theme and whatever else.
So I think the first thing for me that loads of our clients are doing right now, and it's by far the number one item on all of the roadmaps that we have, is basically building a proper account proposition.
And I can't remember the name of the brand that was used with your Epic solution earlier.
(09:48):
But that's a really good example.
And another one that I use regularly is Salomon, the footwear brand.
And if you go on their site, they've got the notification icon, which was also cited.
And then they've built what is essentially a loyalty program.
But the foundation level is just an account, essentially.
And you get free shipping and free returns as a result of building an account.
(10:10):
And then as part of that process, they're capturing more data.
So things like gender, interests, et cetera.
And then that will all be pushed into a CRM or a CDP.
And J.Lindberg is another really good example.
And they capture things like sizing as well.
And then the next phase could then be to surface that on site as you're shopping, as you're presenting product to the customer, et cetera.
(10:34):
But essentially, building an account, you have to have an account in almost all instances and in Shopify in order to opt into a loyalty program.
So I think it's an app.
And obviously, you have the first-party data benefit and the tracking benefits.
I think it's a no brainer to really push that new account proposition, new account experience and try and increase the percentage of users that essentially, you know who they are and you know what they're doing.
(11:02):
And then also, it gives you an opportunity to present different options through the experience and just collect more and more data and yet know as much as you need to about around your customers.
Yeah, I love the example on the Salomon website where the Wayfinders are also being used to collect information almost like a quiz, but it's part of a very natural progression where you're being asked, what kind of shoe are you interested in?
(11:26):
And you choose the type of shoe and then you choose, you know, is it going to be a shoe or a boot and so on.
And it's capturing that information and then using that to surface sizing and correct sizes and so on through the rest of the experience.
Exactly.
And I think the thing that I like about that is it's just in context within, like, a core journey, whereas particularly in, like, cosmetics and beauty, you get a lot of, like, isolated quiz experiences, and they work really well and you can capture great data, you know, and it's a great mechanism for getting an email address or an account or whatever else.
(11:58):
But I think this is more natural.
And if you're paying for traffic, you don't want the friction of pushing people for an account, you know, there's every chance they might abandon, et cetera, or through that experience.
So, yeah, I really like that as well.
And interior defines another really good example where, if you go through any non-purchase conversion, so if you go and request a brochure or, you know, set up, like, an interior, what do you call it?
(12:27):
Interior, like basically a consultation.
Yeah.
It asks you different questions.
It'll ask you, like, initially it'll be, like, what about the project?
And then it'll ask you about, like, the scope of, like, what products you might be interested in.
And all of that, again, is just to push the data into the CRM or CDP.
And I personally think nowadays, like, most brands should be doing this with interest and sizing, just because you're going to be in a much better position from a CRM perspective and onsite perspective.
(12:56):
I think nowadays it's easier than ever to capture that sort of information in Shopify now with the metafields on customer profiles.
You can capture enormous amounts of different types of information and get really detailed and collected as the customer goes along in a more subtle way.
(13:16):
I think Shopify is also making it incredibly easy to get customers to log in.
You know, the new customer account section is basically a one-time passcode.
All you need is your email address.
All of your orders are already collected together.
Where do you see that kind of customer account area for Shopify?
Where do you see that going?
Yeah, I think, I mean, my view on Shopify overall, so I'd say our company is essentially platform agnostic, but because of the nature of the brands we work with, we're very Shopify heavy.
(13:45):
And over the last year, over the last kind of 10 years, I've done a lot of, like, platform valuation stuff, but I've always been super pro-Shopify.
And I think overall their, like, vision and where they're going is, like, no one's close to them in terms of what they're trying to achieve and where they sit in the market.
They're almost like a Windows or an operating system now.
(14:05):
But I think they're in a very good position to make some big moves.
And I think one of the big moves will be essentially them getting more first-party data and them owning the account in a similar way to Shop Pay.
So I think there'll be more things like that in the Shopify ecosystem.
And I think it will benefit the end consumer because, you know, if you're logged in on one Shopify account, you'll be logged in on another, or at least you'll get the prompt, or at least there'll be some level of like, yeah, mechanism there that will support the customer, but also Shopify.
(14:39):
Yeah.
So I think that's kind of where I see it going.
It would be great if, if, if they stepped in as the, the platform provider that helps retailers fix the, um, the cookie-less first-party data conundrum.
Yeah.
And I think, like, we all need a, we all need some help with that, because it's quite complex to navigate when you think about all of the other things that are on a head of ecommerce, or a ecommerce director and ecommerce manager's plate, where they're dealing with everything from operations through to, to marketing.
(15:13):
So I, I would love to see that if Shopify are listening.
I think they're going...
I think they're naturally going that way, anyway.
And I also think that all, I think all of the competitors that I speak to, Shopify, like, you know, they're focusing on a little feature that they have available that Shopify doesn't, or the fact that they're a bit more flexible when it comes to payments, but realistically, Shopify is, like, slowly becoming, like, a top five first-party data owner in the world for commerce.
(15:41):
And you know, they're offering, if you've got pars and social checkout, and obviously checkout and whatever other channel you've got through Shopify, you have already built, like, a true unified view of the customer and no one else is providing that.
And I think, yeah, I think they're leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else from a data perspective.
(16:03):
I think that's, like, a really interesting thing to, just to highlight.
And, you know, sometimes we're in the weeds when we're operating ecommerce sites, and just to step away for a little bit and, and, and have a look at where it's going.
The amount of data that Shopify has also, makes available to retailers.
I've, I've regularly shown retailers the customer segmentation options that are available in the backend of Shopify.
(16:27):
And it's fascinating to see what you can pull as information out of those platforms, but you've mentioned unified commerce and I guess it's an interesting thing.
I'm not sure how many people have heard of the term unified commerce yet?
Hands up? Yeah, so the Shopify people have heard about it...
The people who are selling it...
Do you want to just take us through that a little bit?
(16:52):
Because it's interesting to just pause on that for a moment as we're talking about all of these.
Yeah.
So I think, I think it was Gartner that initially coined the term and Shopify use it a lot.
But essentially, it's just having a unified view of the customer and your data.
And I do, I think for a long time it was an OV, or it was not for a long time - for a short time.
(17:12):
It's been a bit of a buzzword and a lot of, kind of combined technologies will go out to market and offer that.
But Shopify does genuinely offer that with, like, no code essentially.
So, and I think you talked about segmentation, and I think the other data that will be built up within Shopify now is they're starting to build browsing into that as well, natively, which will be massive.
(17:36):
And, you know, last year, particularly Q1, Q2 last year, a lot of our bigger clients were, like, saying, we need a CDP, you know, we need it urgently.
And they didn't really need a CDP, but they were saying they did.
Or at least they thought they did.
And now with Shopify, you're not far off not needing a CDP.
And actually, the role of a lot of the other systems around Shopify is, is going to...
(17:59):
It's an interesting thing because we were being asked in the last, let's say half a year to a year, to start pushing data from outside of Shopify into Shopify.
So pause data, ERP data and pushing that into Shopify, because it's nearly the most useful place to have those.
And when it, when you think about that unified ecommerce or unified commerce idea, it's nearly that one single source of truth for all of your data that is updated in real time.
(18:24):
It is the hub for, for data gathers in all of the rest of the information.
And you can nearly see that, that let's say positioning, I guess, of, of Shopify in that space, which is a hundred percent.
And I think that's something that they've obviously been working on for a long time.
But it's really, like, come to fruition recently.
And I think the other thing right now, it's so easy to get data out of Shopify, like no, very few other systems in the world are as easy to get data out of than Shopify.
(18:53):
So that all of our team, you know, we use super metrics, we use various other, like, low-code tools, or even just pull data out of the APIs themselves.
And I think, yeah, that's just kind of driving more people to, yeah, put that data in Shopify.
I think the other big thing that is like a bit of an elephant in the room, not that many people are talking about because they still, like, maybe they don't know if it's the right thing to do, but obviously GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
(19:20):
And I think Shopify have, like, gradually improved their, like, traffic reporting, their marketing reporting, et cetera.
And to be honest, I think a lot of our customers now are actually using Shopify's analytics instead of GA4 in, like, 50, 60, 70% of, like, reports and you know, data they actually need.
(19:40):
And I think if that gets stronger as well, again, it's just, like, more data for Shopify, obviously, but also they're just creating a much broader reason to use Shopify.
So you just need the data in the morning really quickly.
Like, you just need your reports.
You need to be able to read your reports quickly.
You need your top-level metrics, grab those out of Shopify.
You don't need to go...
Yeah.
(20:02):
...GA4 and spend the rest of the day dealing with Meta.
Um, do you have problems with Meta?
I'm really sore about Meta at the moment.
To go back to the loyalty side of things, and that kind of community building, how important do you think it is to, to kind of approach that with a joined up thinking attitude where you brand the, the loyalty that you're going to do, or the proposition you have around your customers and community?
(20:31):
I think it's massive.
Yeah.
I think it's obviously a much more, it's something that a customer can kind of buy into more, it's something that will resonate more with them.
Yeah, I think a lot of the best examples of loyalty programs have, like, its own brand.
So, like, Represent I've been using a lot as an example recently, just because they're quite present at the moment.
(20:51):
And a lot of people talk about that community, but yeah, so they've got prestige, and so many of their customers, you know, we'll talk about prestige without even mentioning Represent.
And I think that goes a long way.
But to be honest, because of this first-party data shift, that kind of membership route I mentioned as well, like, both loyalty and the membership piece, like, all the biggest brands in the world are doing right now.
(21:15):
Like, like you look at Nike, you look at Adidas, you've got Addy club.
I forgot what the Nike one's called.
Yeah.
Salomon is S/PLUS.
But I think it's interesting.
It's nearly a brand, like a brand within a brand.
Out on its own in its own right.
You know, you've got the, the, some of the nice, the ones that come to mind really, like, the e.l.f. Beauty Squad.
And we, we talked with an Irish retailer at one time who mentioned that when they had a loyalty program, they just called it the Loyalty Program.
(21:41):
Nobody used it, and then they renamed it the A-list, and then people started using it.
And you know, that, that kind of thing. On that as a kind of, let's say, a next logical extension...
Can you talk to us a little bit about mobile apps and how you see those?
We get asked quite regularly, and even this morning somebody in the room here was talking about a mobile app they're about to develop.
(22:04):
I always feel like it's not enough to have just your catalogue in an app.
You have to have an angle.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Yeah, completely agree.
I think if you were to go down the route of essentially, because within Shopify, it's very easy to introduce a native app.
There's a few different vendors that have reduced the barrier to entry and they can inherit bits of your theme and, you know, launch something super quickly.
(22:30):
But I think it's a short-term solution.
I think it's an additional engagement point, maybe short-term.
But I personally think it kind of cheapens your brand a bit because it's very transactional.
There's no real reason for that customer to engage.
You're just kind of sending the same messages via different channels.
Whereas I think, so I've, I feel like two, three years ago, all of our clients were looking at native apps.
(22:55):
And then it died off, and then this year it's been massive.
So a lot of our biggest clients are, have recently released apps and those that haven't are working on it now.
And I think we always say you have to have a reason to go to the app that isn't transactional.
And pretty much all of our clients are building that in.
(23:16):
So loyalty is part of it.
So for some of our clients, like the loyalty program will be managed within the app.
And a lot of the kind of content that's built into that will be done by the app.
We've got a client that's doing resale only through the app.
So they've got a bit of a cult following and they did resale once and they didn't manage it very well.
(23:37):
So they're kind of doing it through the app and then gradually releasing product through the tiers so that they can control it.
We've got a client that does clienteling through the app.
So they do, so that's Totem.
So they do all of their kind of store, like, VIP appointments, like events, all of the multichannel stuff through the app.
(23:59):
And that's a really nice way to do it.
We've had clients do, like, advanced sizing stuff through the app.
But yeah, from my perspective, I personally think if you do a native app, you have to invest in something that engages the customer semi-regularly and gives them a reason to have that native app experience, be that editorial, loyalty, a game, like, whatever - something that isn't transactional.
(24:24):
So if an app's on your list, the first question is why, why are you going to do this over and above?
And then the next question is what are those things and what's the priority order you're going to put them in?
One other question is, you know, does it work?
Do you think it's... obviously an app is expensive to produce and you're putting a lot of thought and effort and time into bringing it to fruition.
(24:47):
Do you see it working for people?
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, yeah, all of our clients have, kind of focused on the data and it's pretty much always worked.
I think the ones that haven't have always been transactional.
And even then, there is an argument that it works just in terms of push notifications, being like a real high-engagement channel and, you know, people still being able to be brought back by the app that, yeah, it might not be incremental, but it could be a better experience and it could convert better, et cetera.
(25:16):
But yeah, so Represent is a really good example.
They released their app a little while ago, so maybe like three, four months ago and it's been, yeah, they've seen decent incremental growth of the, I was talking to Liverpool football club recently.
They were talking about their app that's now transactional and they've seen incremental benefit.
And, yeah, I've, everyone that I've spoke to that has done it properly.
(25:38):
And like you say, had a reason beyond just, yeah, transacting has pretty much always found it to be an effective channel for re-engaging customers.
But I do think it is a, a retention channel or a re-engagement channel, not a new customer acquisition channel.
When we spoke previously, Gordon, you had this nice kind of image of the sales person with their little black book.
(26:04):
You know, the, the guy who knows all the customers, he knows their sizes, he's rolled out at certain times of the year to get in contact and drum up a bit of business.
Do you see kind of a digital variation on that in terms of, you know, even the clienteling or the engaging with customers?
Yeah, I think most of the brands of ours that do that is all done through WhatsApp.
(26:26):
For whatever reason, we have had some clients try and do it for a native app, but yeah, the ones that have done it most effectively...
And I always remember I worked for, with a, like, really high-end sunglasses retailer, and they had one person that just sat on WhatsApp and Facebook chatting to, like...
That's a one-to-one and not a broadcast.
(26:46):
Very one-to-one.
Yeah, totally one-to-one.
And yeah, they would have, they had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses and I was, like, couldn't believe it.
But, but yeah, essentially this person had almost, like, a target, but it was, it was kind of half seen as, like, just giving a good experience, but she pretty much had a sales target, to be fair.
And she was very non-commercial, but yeah.
(27:09):
And I think to be honest, a lot of the top fashion brands do that.
I'm pretty sure Burberry do the same.
They do a lot of their clienteling via WhatsApp.
And yeah, it's designed to feel very personal.
A lot of it's more around kind of convenience and, you know, like subtly telling a customer if you've got a new item that might be similar to previous preferences, all that kind of stuff.
(27:32):
And there's probably a CRM behind it, but it just has to feel very personal.
Do you see, you know, the generation of, let's say a, a draft order where, like, that person with a little black book would effectively put this season's look together for a VIP customer and, you know, send them the link to the checkout and say, here you go, this is what we've picked for you.
(27:53):
And we think this will really work.
Do you see that kind of...?
I think, I see a lot of the, these people using draft orders, but it's probably like, I think the other thing is like, you know, they'll do calls or they'll send lots of links and then, you know, they'll get opinions and then they'll send stuff and they'll return it, et cetera.
So yeah, I think draft orders are super useful for this and loads of our clients use it for exactly that.
(28:17):
The other thing that I would say that a few of our clients do, which is slightly off-topic, but it's the same thing.
So I don't know, one, another big trend we've seen recently is, like, concierge delivery services and, like, last-mile delivery services.
So our average client top two cities would be London and New York.
And a lot of our clients now use, like, a Harper Concierge, a Quiver, a TOSHI - like these services allow basically one-hour delivery slots.
(28:46):
Or like with Harper, they have, like, a qualified, like concierge, I guess, like, go into the house, talk through all the styling options.
And I know they've got a lot of data around that kind of, like, doubling order value and, like, increasing retention metrics massively.
But that's another one, like, along these lines, I feel like that we have...
(29:09):
We have a retailer in the room here, Louis Copeland, who is very well known for Louis Copeland himself arriving on the doorstep and handing over the ultimate in concierge.
But it's such a great marketing ploy as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, it's at that level, it's still very people-heavy, though.
You still have your person managing WhatsApp.
(29:29):
Now it's totally worth doing if it's worth half a mil, you can totally justify that cost.
But how, how would you see that?
Like a, I suppose a, not a watered down, but an, a scalable automatable version of that where you've maybe got 10,000 customers that you want to deliver something to, could you see that working or, or being, being implemented in the future?
(29:56):
Definitely.
So, yeah, I mean, we have loads of clients that do it.
It's more that it's just, they've got something storing the value of the customer, be that the CRM or loyalty platform or Shopify or whatever else.
And then they've just got very specific CRM programs that are triggered based on a new benefit or, you know, they'll make sure that they send campaigns with a certain frequency so that they're kind of re-engaging these customers, but the messaging is not promotional.
(30:24):
It's, like, entirely, like, convenience- or service-orientated.
But yeah, I think a lot of our clients have, yeah, quite granular, like VIP programs for CRM.
We saw a really nice demo from Gorgias of the Gorgias Convert, which Neil might talk about later on, I'm not sure.
But no, he says, but you are now, but, it's, it allows you down at scale to trigger, um, let's say interactions with customers on the basis of what they're actually doing on the site.
(30:56):
So you can really, you know, they might be looking at a product.
They might've gone and switched between two or three products and you can start to engage with them at the point where you think that they're, they're ready to convert and they might have some questions.
And I just kind of a question I'm always curious about, I know, Gordon, you have an opinion on this, but I always wonder about the value and this kind of slightly off-topic of extending your customer service hours and having people manning the customer service like until, until later in the evenings, you know, until nine or 10 o'clock at night.
(31:24):
Do you, do you know businesses doing that and do you know whether or not they find it valuable?
To be honest,
I'd say this is probably slightly outside of my wheelhouse.
We've definitely got clients that do it and, you know, that invest in out-of-hours services.
And there's, yeah, a few companies that our clients have used, but I feel that I wouldn't know the tangible value, if you see what I mean?
(31:45):
Gordon, you'd have an opinion, do you?
You might.
If people are shopping in the evening, and your peak time is 7pm to maybe 10pm, then you should be building your service proposition around being able to help them during that time, which is really where that comes from.
It's common sense, but it's a bit more difficult to, to execute. But, like, business doesn't always happen online between the hours of 9am and 5.30pm, Monday to Friday.
(32:15):
I think this is an interesting one because I think it depends on, I guess the value, like the order value as well.
Because I would say a lot of our fashion clients would man live chat between, like, peak hours UK and US, for example.
But I feel like some of the higher-volume brands I've worked with are now, like, really trying to push AI on that side.
(32:38):
So maybe they'll still have resources available, but they're really trying to, like, reduce the hours that go into it for, like, Sienna or some of the other solutions out there.
We nearly got through a whole podcast without mentioning AI.
I was bursting to sneak in with this.
I saw a really mischievous presentation from a data insights guy from John Lewis one time, who, who kind of declared somewhat in a sexist manner, but it was, like, basically John Lewis figured out that 9.21pm was the time when their most valuable customer, a woman, uh, would come onto the site.
(33:15):
And his point was, like, at 9.21pm, if you see your partner or wife pick up her phone, you know that's the time to distract her.
Yeah.
But I couldn't let us go without having a quick chat about your app.
Census.
Yeah.
So you guys even got into the app building for Shopify end of things there last year, I think it was.
(33:38):
I heard some great things about the feedback app.
Do you want to just...
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, it must've been maybe a couple of years ago we released the app.
So it's essentially a survey that sits on the order confirmation page that can ask different questions to different customers, based on variables.
So the average implementation would probably have three questions.
(33:58):
First one would be, where did you first see or hear about the brand, which you then might push into your reporting tool or wherever else you want that data.
Second question would typically be more focused on the customer.
So it might be like what age range they're in.
It might be whether it's a gift or self purchase.
And those questions might then be pushed into your CRM system or your email platform.
(34:22):
And then the, on top of that, we'd then have, like, feedback questions.
So that would be designed to pull out, like, any friction points, issues with carrier options, like localisation, all of that kind of stuff.
And then you would use that data to then, I guess, push things into your backlog or, you know, push it to your customer service team.
But the one thing I would say is we introduced it more for the attribution side, but actually now most people are using it to get more insight into the customer.
(34:51):
And, you know, like what other brands they buy, like, you know, where else they buy the product, all that kind of stuff.
And then they push it into a Klaviyo or a Metria or whatever else and use it more from a marketing perspective.
Yeah.
I've noticed things like businesses when there's a, when a gift message is being chosen, for example, after the transaction has gone through and the order has been made, they say, we noticed you bought a gift today.
(35:14):
Was that for a birthday?
And, you know, that sort of thing.
And then storing that information to, to help.
Yeah.
We actually haven't done that, but we should, because it can do that.
It's just, I've never seen a client do it.
Yeah.
But I really like the, you know, because just after the transaction is made, I think there's great opportunities for a couple of things.
You know, I, I really feel when people are buying online, there's, there's a bit of tension and they're trying to get, you know, it's a bit of unnatural tension when they're trying to get through the checkout and they're, they're very focused on, on, on getting their order in some cases.
(35:43):
And then there is like a natural release of tension once the order has gone through and people sometimes are kind of willing and ready to offer additional information or also buy additional things.
It's the, it's really the time where you kind of have that bit of remorse where you're like, oh, maybe I should have got that extra, you know, that product.
And do you think like things like that, like post sale absence, you know.
(36:07):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I completely agree with you.
I've always said the order confirmation page is like the most underutilised page in e-comm.
And I think, you know, even looking at the survey, which averages like 25, 30% completion rate people are, you know, still engaged on that page.
And we have had clients that have done post-purchase recommendations.
(36:27):
The issue is usually more of the kind of back office side, which hopefully your solution can help with.
But the, yeah, essentially, yeah, we have had clients that have, you know, added significant revenue usually by attaching some level of promotion.
So if you've bought, maybe a t-shirt offering a discount on the second one, or, you know, saying it's not too late to add the bundle items, et cetera.
(36:52):
But yeah, they definitely work and there's lots of data online around how important they can be.
Like a lot of the DTC brands did really well through COVID with those types of things.
I think it's so interesting.
Years ago, I remember thinking that ecommerce was very bizarre in a way where we were nearly setting up a clean white room, with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign, you know, which is not at all how people deal with, you know, even after the sale, um, inside and, you know, you have the smile.
(37:21):
Thank you.
Would you like to send us a receipt and all that kind of thing?
Um, I'm going to take a very quick opportunity.
I don't know if we have a roaming mic, but is anybody... seeing as we have an audience in front of us...
Does anybody have a question that they'd like to put to us up here?
Any brave souls?
That came out of left field.
I was not expecting that.
(37:43):
I was like, I know we're in front of an audience. So usually I pick on James Byrne in these situations, but I'm not going to do that today, James.
But does anybody have a quick question that they'd like to ask?
No? Very good, we'll cut that out...
Okay.
One thing I was going to say, so you talked about Gorgias Convert, which obviously proactively communicates with a customer based on variables.
(38:10):
One thing we talked about before that we're in the process of testing across a lot of clients is, um, so your colleague talked about the notification icon, like capturing attention earlier.
And I said about that being Salomon's example, but one thing we're testing is the notification icon and the header.
And basically using that to communicate with customers based on variables.
(38:31):
So a similar thing, but it's more like capturing the attention.
And then if someone's been on the site before, you might show them products that they hadn't viewed.
You might, someone we work with is a fashion brand called The Frankie Shop.
They promote, so they're, like, latest store new editorial content and then, like, new in this week.
Yeah.
And basically that is one, if you do build in some of this first-party data stuff, segmentation stuff, it is an opportunity to communicate with a customer based on what you know.
(38:59):
So if they've got something in the basket, you can communicate other items, you know, any promotions that are relevant, any new products since their last visit.
Like, I do think that's a really clever mechanism for communicating with a customer for both upselling and just generally getting them to do what you want.
Absolutely.
And I love it because it's, it's also kind of, it's native to how people are using the devices.
(39:21):
You know, it is a little bit cross, you know, cross-functional in some ways.
But it kind of thinks a little bit outside the box while still being very obviously intuitive for a customer that's using the website.
And I really liked those, those solutions like the, that Salomon one again with the Wayfinder, I think is genius because it's what the customer is doing anyway.
And you're really helping them to, to understand what the product offering is on the site.
(39:45):
Yeah.
I think like some really good advice today.
And if I've been listening properly, my takeaways are, like, number one, build your customer account out.
Yeah.
Number two, think about how you collect first-party data in a way that feels natural and intuitive.
Number three, build out a proposition that adds real value beyond points.
(40:07):
Yeah.
And then number four, try and personalise communications as they're going out, and then add a bit of notification anxiety on top of it for customers to click on.
I love your, I love your summarising, Gordon.
It's always great.
On that note, thanks a million, Paul.
It's been great to have you here.
We really appreciate you coming over today.
Give a round of applause to Paul, please.
(40:33):
You've been listening to Functional & Fabulous, with Gerard Keohane and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast, or about StudioForty9 and Omnichannel Stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie. The show was produced by Roger Overall.
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